The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: ShiffDrgnhrt on February 02, 2007, 09:49:16 AM
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Is there any ONE Superior way to set up a characters Ability points? Like does a Fighter need to have 16 str, 13 dex, 16 con, 13 int, and 8 char and wis at the start to become a good weapon master? Or does t depend on the RP aspect as well? I always get worried that my PCs arent going to be as good as they could be
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There is no one superior way to do it. Most who are aiming for Weapon Master, though, start with 13 DEX and INT, as these are required ability scores to get the prerequisite feats for the class.
Other than that, it's up to you, but make sure you can RP your ability scores, and remember that you can have no more than two abilities under 10, and only one of those can be under 8.
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Ideally, for a fighter WM, you could go 17 str, 13 dex, 12 con, 8 wis, 14 int, 8 char. but that's min maxing your stats. rply the char would be smart but foolish, not very good looking, on the strong side, somewhat quick, and tougher than average. mechanically, without help your will saves'll be low but attack and damge will be high which is key for a WM. but keep in mind that this is an RP server, not a power build server.
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well i try to get the omst of both, but after thinking it over i think im doing fine
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My dogma is not to waste any ability points at creation. In other words, putting max 14 in each (not counting with racial bonuses, of course, so elves would have max 16 dex and max 12 con).
If I wished to have a fighter/weaponmaster, I would most probably use the following scores:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
This dogma is of course not completely valid for caster classes, as it might indeed be a good idea to put 15 in the caster-ability to get the level 8 and 9 spells on time. It's actually a really, really good idea, unless you are crazy... Ummm... *Looks shifty eyed.* I guess, I'm not in position to say anything about that... *Coughs.*
In my opinion, putting 17 or 18 is a reaaaallly big waste of ability points.
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Weeblie - 2/2/2007 12:47 PM
My dogma is not to waste any ability points at creation. In other words, putting max 14 in each (not counting with racial bonuses, of course, so elves would have max 16 dex and max 12 con).
If I wished to have a fighter/weaponmaster, I would most probably use the following scores:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
This dogma is of course not completely valid for caster classes, as it might indeed be a good idea to put 15 in the caster-ability to get the level 8 and 9 spells on time. It's actually a really, really good idea, unless you are crazy... Ummm... *Looks shifty eyed.* I guess, I'm not in position to say anything about that... *Coughs.*
In my opinion, putting 17 or 18 is a reaaaallly big waste of ability points.
The problem witht hat build is all the eveness, from 1-20 you get five abillity points. you can completly coutn on those and by level 4 you'llb e back up to par. also, with a WM most likely he'll be using full plate, so the extra point in dex is lost. Char doesn't help a Wm what so ever, it would be a complete waste of poitns to put anything in char, and wis is sacrificial one point wont make a huge difference in will saves.
as for 17 18, ya 18 is, but deffinatly not 17. 17 = 22 at level 20, 16 = 21 at level 20. it lessens the total str. and the main abbility for WM is str as it helps damage and AB.
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Weeblie, putting 14 in DEX for any shieldless non-finesse fighter is a bad idea. Better to put it, and a point or two from CHA, into STR.
Fullplate only has +1 Max DEX.
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Well not all fighters wear full plates and shields you know? :P
some like chianmails and dual weapons! I really don't get why every single fighter out there is tucked in full plate >.>
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Jearick Hgar - 2/2/2007 9:51 PM
Weeblie - 2/2/2007 12:47 PM
My dogma is not to waste any ability points at creation. In other words, putting max 14 in each (not counting with racial bonuses, of course, so elves would have max 16 dex and max 12 con).
If I wished to have a fighter/weaponmaster, I would most probably use the following scores:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
This dogma is of course not completely valid for caster classes, as it might indeed be a good idea to put 15 in the caster-ability to get the level 8 and 9 spells on time. It's actually a really, really good idea, unless you are crazy... Ummm... *Looks shifty eyed.* I guess, I'm not in position to say anything about that... *Coughs.*
In my opinion, putting 17 or 18 is a reaaaallly big waste of ability points.
The problem witht hat build is all the eveness, from 1-20 you get five abillity points. you can completly coutn on those and by level 4 you'llb e back up to par. also, with a WM most likely he'll be using full plate, so the extra point in dex is lost. Char doesn't help a Wm what so ever, it would be a complete waste of poitns to put anything in char, and wis is sacrificial one point wont make a huge difference in will saves.
as for 17 18, ya 18 is, but deffinatly not 17. 17 = 22 at level 20, 16 = 21 at level 20. it lessens the total str. and the main abbility for WM is str as it helps damage and AB.
A weaponmaster using fullplate feels a little bit silly in my opinion, as all the weapon masters I have in my mind are kind of chain shirt (or plain robe) oriented. Full plate falls more into the knight category for me while the weapon masters are the dexteritish people jumping around with a longsword/rapier/shortsword whacking people into dust with skills instead of dwarven bluntness.
Charisma isn't a complete waste of points as Weapon Master implies you are someone "impressive with the weapon of your choice". Ability point for showoff. People regarding you as an expert in something and your self confidence should be boosted to top. Kind of the eremit with infinitive knowledge (weaponwise, that is) and is just... impressive!
Wisdom... Well, nuff said about putting it below 10. I can't seriously see weapon masters as... umm.... people with little wits. They might not be so much wiser than other people (normally) but I seriously can't see them as less wise either. Learning from your mistakes and so on is an important aspect, after all.
As you probably has noticed, the stats I've choosed are NOT to max out damage NOR are they to max out AB.
If you put strength to 16, you get 1 extra damage and 1 extra AB. Oooh... Scary! Um.... No... Don't believe it will matter much when you reach mid level.
17 or 18 points in one ability score usually cripples your character RP-wise. I don't believe many people are prepared to have a character with 8 wisdom and 8 charisma...
Edit: I can see why people put 17 wisdom or intelligence or charisma for the caster classes. You do get more spell slots (higher level spell slots too) in that case. But for a fighter class? Eeeeh...
Edit 2: Yeah... My weapon master would most probably use a short sword and pick weapon finesse. And has as a goal to put dex to 18, either with natural ability points on level up or with items.
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I totally agree regarding the weaponmaster imagery, they really don't strike me as fullplate and tucking steel :p
A full plate has its tool on the wearer, it's a heavy armour... you can't jump around in it =)
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Not necessarily true. Knights in old days didn't necessarily just charge - they were immensely strong, so fullplate wasn't quite as much of a hinderance. A knight could be a consummate swordsman with a longsword/greatsword as much as a person with a rapier... perhaps not quite as bouncy, but they could still be masters of the weapon (weapon masters, if you will).
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I believe most knights wore half plates and full plates were cavalery material, then again, I'm not quite sure :P
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Weeblie - 2/2/2007 1:47 PM
My dogma is not to waste any ability points at creation. In other words, putting max 14 in each (not counting with racial bonuses, of course, so elves would have max 16 dex and max 12 con).
My Karma ran over your Dogma
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Witch Hunter - 2/2/2007 1:36 PM
I totally agree regarding the weaponmaster imagery, they really don't strike me as fullplate and tucking steel :p
A full plate has its tool on the wearer, it's a heavy armour... you can't jump around in it =)
I don't see where being a Weaponmaster necessarily means you have to be "bouncy." I could just as easily envision one so in tune with his sword he can hold off multiple enemies while standing completely still, using only precise strikes and blocks. One who uses a polearm may be stationary while using the distance he longer weapon affords to keep the enemy from getting too close. It's all about manual dexterity in these cases, not acrobatics, and a fair amount of heavy armor wouldn't hinder them at all (of course their arms would have to be relatively unconstricted but even then, the forearm could be protected)
I'd certainly be just as or more impressed by a master who stood still and looked almost bored while dispatching enemies with careful and perfect strikes, than one leaping all over the room. Really the "weaponmasters" described in this thread seem more like "duellists" to me; weaponmastery should be (IMO) a very wide open class with many ways to approach it (as many ways as weapons themselves; a dagger master would be very, very different than the master of a halbred.)
And from earlier...
Weeblie - 2/2/2007 12:47 PM
My dogma is not to waste any ability points at creation. In other words, putting max 14 in each (not counting with racial bonuses, of course, so elves would have max 16 dex and max 12 con).
If I wished to have a fighter/weaponmaster, I would most probably use the following scores:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
This dogma is of course not completely valid for caster classes, as it might indeed be a good idea to put 15 in the caster-ability to get the level 8 and 9 spells on time. It's actually a really, really good idea, unless you are crazy... Ummm... *Looks shifty eyed.* I guess, I'm not in position to say anything about that... *Coughs.*
In my opinion, putting 17 or 18 is a reaaaallly big waste of ability points.
That's fine for you, but I think it's contrary to the point of roleplaying. It shouldn't be all about the bonuses, these abilities also shape how you (should) play your character. A perfectly middling build like that seems like a competent but very boring character to play to me. It may not make as much sense to waste a few points to make him a little stronger, or a little less wise, or even-gasp-smarter than the average fighter but it can go a long way towards shaping their personality. And of course it's also fun to play a "prodigy", like an exceptionally wise priest or agile rogue who's just average (at best) as everything else.
Likewise making an ability slightly lower than their PrC will later require-- like say a Weaponmaster with 12 dex.-- will give them a purpose, i.e. they had better train in that ability if they want to go down that path. Or for that matter giving a character an intentional weakness-- like a wizard with 8 constitution-- will not only shape their personality as someone frail, but give them an in-game purpose, such as finding spells, potions and enchantments to keep their health up. In my opinion (and possibly just mine) flaws are just as important (and neccessary for a great RP character) as talents.
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Witch Hunter - 2/2/2007 4:36 PM
I totally agree regarding the weaponmaster imagery, they really don't strike me as fullplate and tucking steel :p
A full plate has its tool on the wearer, it's a heavy armour... you can't jump around in it =)
My fighter is probably gonna be in either Scale or Chain Mail. perhaps banded or splint even, but thats c for a different reason
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wooley sluggs - 2/2/2007 4:34 PM
I don't see where being a Weaponmaster necessarily means you have to be "bouncy." I could just as easily envision one so in tune with his sword he can hold off multiple enemies while standing completely still, using only precise strikes and blocks. One who uses a polearm may be stationary while using the distance he longer weapon affords to keep the enemy from getting too close. It's all about manual dexterity in these cases, not acrobatics, and a fair amount of heavy armor wouldn't hinder them at all (of course their arms would have to be relatively unconstricted but even then, the forearm could be protected)
I'd certainly be just as or more impressed by a master who stood still and looked almost bored while dispatching enemies with careful and perfect strikes, than one leaping all over the room. Really the "weaponmasters" described in this thread seem more like "duellists" to me; weaponmastery should be (IMO) a very wide open class with many ways to approach it (as many ways as weapons themselves; a dagger master would be very, very different than the master of a halbred.)
Well then, that's a dwarven defender you're talking about :)
Look at the requirments for the Weapon Master: Spring Attack, Whrilwind, Mobility, Dodge...
Clearly they're trying to hint something.
As for polearms, in all those cheesy japanise movies you see them twirl their spears and stuff above their head and slash around really swiftly... that's exactly the image I get off a weapon master.
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Witch Hunter - 2/2/2007 1:36 PM
I totally agree regarding the weaponmaster imagery, they really don't strike me as fullplate and tucking steel :p
A full plate has its tool on the wearer, it's a heavy armour... you can't jump around in it =)
Jumping around has nothing to do with being a weaponmaster. I see a dwarf, in full-plate, with a shield and axe, or even a dwarven battle axe. If you want to be a duelist in leather, jumping around like a rabbit, go for it. But a weaponmaster is about the weapon, and knowing how to use it. There are no restrictions on armor for a weapon master for a reason.
I will give you that spring attack is a "jump", but it doesn't mean you have to be spider man =P. As far as whirlwind, you don't have to be agile to take a big swing.
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Weeblie - 2/2/2007 1:10 PM
Jearick Hgar - 2/2/2007 9:51 PM
Weeblie - 2/2/2007 12:47 PM
My dogma is not to waste any ability points at creation. In other words, putting max 14 in each (not counting with racial bonuses, of course, so elves would have max 16 dex and max 12 con).
If I wished to have a fighter/weaponmaster, I would most probably use the following scores:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
This dogma is of course not completely valid for caster classes, as it might indeed be a good idea to put 15 in the caster-ability to get the level 8 and 9 spells on time. It's actually a really, really good idea, unless you are crazy... Ummm... *Looks shifty eyed.* I guess, I'm not in position to say anything about that... *Coughs.*
In my opinion, putting 17 or 18 is a reaaaallly big waste of ability points.
The problem witht hat build is all the eveness, from 1-20 you get five abillity points. you can completly coutn on those and by level 4 you'llb e back up to par. also, with a WM most likely he'll be using full plate, so the extra point in dex is lost. Char doesn't help a Wm what so ever, it would be a complete waste of poitns to put anything in char, and wis is sacrificial one point wont make a huge difference in will saves.
as for 17 18, ya 18 is, but deffinatly not 17. 17 = 22 at level 20, 16 = 21 at level 20. it lessens the total str. and the main abbility for WM is str as it helps damage and AB.
A weaponmaster using fullplate feels a little bit silly in my opinion, as all the weapon masters I have in my mind are kind of chain shirt (or plain robe) oriented. Full plate falls more into the knight category for me while the weapon masters are the dexteritish people jumping around with a longsword/rapier/shortsword whacking people into dust with skills instead of dwarven bluntness.
Charisma isn't a complete waste of points as Weapon Master implies you are someone "impressive with the weapon of your choice". Ability point for showoff. People regarding you as an expert in something and your self confidence should be boosted to top. Kind of the eremit with infinitive knowledge (weaponwise, that is) and is just... impressive!
Wisdom... Well, nuff said about putting it below 10. I can't seriously see weapon masters as... umm.... people with little wits. They might not be so much wiser than other people (normally) but I seriously can't see them as less wise either. Learning from your mistakes and so on is an important aspect, after all.
As you probably has noticed, the stats I've choosed are NOT to max out damage NOR are they to max out AB.
If you put strength to 16, you get 1 extra damage and 1 extra AB. Oooh... Scary! Um.... No... Don't believe it will matter much when you reach mid level.
17 or 18 points in one ability score usually cripples your character RP-wise. I don't believe many people are prepared to have a character with 8 wisdom and 8 charisma...
Edit: I can see why people put 17 wisdom or intelligence or charisma for the caster classes. You do get more spell slots (higher level spell slots too) in that case. But for a fighter class? Eeeeh...
Edit 2: Yeah... My weapon master would most probably use a short sword and pick weapon finesse. And has as a goal to put dex to 18, either with natural ability points on level up or with items.
That's all from an rp perspective. my perspective on stats was all from a power gaming perspective. He was asking for the best buildwise for a WM and thsoe stats are it, not going to give away the best class build for WM, but that's the stats i'd use.
i already stated with my post on stats that rply the guy would be foolish and ugly, and that the stats aren't ideal rply, but if your aiming for a power build that's what you want idealy.
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Drizzlin - 2/3/2007 12:25 AM
Witch Hunter - 2/2/2007 1:36 PM
I totally agree regarding the weaponmaster imagery, they really don't strike me as fullplate and tucking steel :p
A full plate has its tool on the wearer, it's a heavy armour... you can't jump around in it =)
Jumping around has nothing to do with being a weaponmaster. I see a dwarf, in full-plate, with a shield and axe, or even a dwarven battle axe. If you want to be a duelist in leather, jumping around like a rabbit, go for it. But a weaponmaster is about the weapon, and knowing how to use it. There are no restrictions on armor for a weapon master for a reason.
I will give you that spring attack is a "jump", but it doesn't mean you have to be spider man =P. As far as whirlwind, you don't have to be agile to take a big swing.
I agree one hundred percent. Just liek ti was stated that fighters vary so do weapon masters. the type your discribing i'd lable mroe as a samurai or something along that lines. I see a Wm as someone who jsut knows how to use their weapon very efficiently, could be a pally with a double sword, could be a half orc with a great axe, could be a samurai with a katana, could be a halfling rogue with daggers. all would fight differently, but they've all mastered their weapon.
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wooley sluggs - 2/3/2007 1:34 AM
That's fine for you, but I think it's contrary to the point of roleplaying. It shouldn't be all about the bonuses, these abilities also shape how you (should) play your character. A perfectly middling build like that seems like a competent but very boring character to play to me. It may not make as much sense to waste a few points to make him a little stronger, or a little less wise, or even-gasp-smarter than the average fighter but it can go a long way towards shaping their personality. And of course it's also fun to play a "prodigy", like an exceptionally wise priest or agile rogue who's just average (at best) as everything else.
Likewise making an ability slightly lower than their PrC will later require-- like say a Weaponmaster with 12 dex.-- will give them a purpose, i.e. they had better train in that ability if they want to go down that path. Or for that matter giving a character an intentional weakness-- like a wizard with 8 constitution-- will not only shape their personality as someone frail, but give them an in-game purpose, such as finding spells, potions and enchantments to keep their health up. In my opinion (and possibly just mine) flaws are just as important (and neccessary for a great RP character) as talents.
Remember that 10 is average and a character with 14 strength is already considered "exceptional strong". Flaws are indeed as important as talents, though flawing in the vital parts of the class kind of makes your character "not really" that class. For example, a wizard with only 10 in intelligence can of course game mechanically be a wizard and practice the art of wizardry IC-ly too, but all the other wizards will see him more as a wizard-wannabe than a "true" wizard. Heh... I guess you could still stay a 10 int wizard is a wizard build but those characters falls into my category of "funny characters" instead! :)
Putting a lower ability score than what should be healthy is indeed something I usually do for my characters, for the exact reasons you mentioned. But the true "über smart wizard with 18 int" or the "18 strength super fighter" are characters I found more suitable in a single player or a "small group" campaign (read: PnP). The problem with doing that in an online world is that... um... the "top position" is usually already taken by someone else. :P
Witch Hunter - 2/3/2007 3:45 AM
Well then, that's a dwarven defender you're talking about :)
Look at the requirments for the Weapon Master: Spring Attack, Whrilwind, Mobility, Dodge...
This is also what I had in mind when I was saying my image of Weapon Masters are jumpy people!
Jearick Hgar - 2/3/2007 10:01 AM
That's all from an rp perspective. my perspective on stats was all from a power gaming perspective. He was asking for the best buildwise for a WM and thsoe stats are it, not going to give away the best class build for WM, but that's the stats i'd use.
i already stated with my post on stats that rply the guy would be foolish and ugly, and that the stats aren't ideal rply, but if your aiming for a power build that's what you want idealy.
As I read it, the original question also had the RP aspect in mind and the ability points i showed tries to keep a balance between pure number-power and the RP-aspect. Also, the first post of mine was not directed as "look here, these numbers are better" but instead "this is what I would have done".
Oh... eh... by the way... haven't you got 2 ability points too few in your build? It looks as though 17, 13, 14, 14, 8, 8 (S,D,C,I,W,C) should be possible. :P
Focusing purely on damage given, that might indeed be the numbers one should have (but... um... it's possible that the 8 wisdom will cripple you on some DM quests).
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eh one point with will wont effect much. if the DC is 30 and you would have had 10 will if it wasn't for the -1, then you stillg otta roll 20.
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No, I'm not talking about will saves or anything, but rather the wisdom rolls the DM requires you to roll from time to time. Which might not be a roll at all, but to only see what your wisdom modifier is.
The save bonus from wisdom (or any other ability score) is pretty much insignificant unless you have a very high score. :)
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Alright... A bit hectic, but by the points.
- "Spring Attack" is not a jumpy deal. It is, in PnP terms, just being able to move before and after an attack. You ever see those passby attacks in anime? Yeah, that. In NWN, it's more along the lines of being able to do that, and still defend oneself against Attacks of Opportunity.
- Fullplate is easier to wear than Halfplate. Only about five pounds heavier, and with a greater Maximum Dexterity Bonus... Most fighters don't even HAVE a DEX bonus.
- The idea of an agile weaponmaster... That sounds like the Duelist. How do I know? I play one. ;) Taking a look at the most famous Weapon Masters of our times, we've also got Jet and Cole Norseman. Both wore Fullplate, both used heavier weapons. Norseman, in the course of teaching one of my characters, explained the theory behind mastering the Greatsword. Heavy armor goes into that. Mobility, aye, but... Mainly a sense of solidity.
- Ability scores... I play one character with INT 6, WIS 10/12, CHA 8. Min-maxing? Sure, I can go with that. But did I choose that because it'd be fun to RP? Oh yeah. The character's a Barbarian, by the way, who, sadly, will NEVER be able to go WM. 'Cause of the INT. I like Grok, and so do most of the people who interact with him. :) Prodigious strength, hunger, and stupidity. It's great. My character concept worked out really well... So, if you want to try your own concept, go right ahead! But always, always, always RP your stats.
- Weaponmasters are built entirely around their Weapon of Choice. If they're mastering the rapier, they may as well go Duelist, but... Other than that, you could definitely have a faster-than-wind Dagger WM, or a slow, utterly destructive tank of a Greatsword WM. Or anything else. It's based on the weapon.
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*chuckles slightly*
Anyone who thinks that Fullplate is easier to wear than Halfplate, needs to go visit an armoury where they can try it out....
Although I admit the classic idea of needing a crane to mount your horse, is hogwash. It is surprisingly easy to move around in that stuff. See where you are going, now that's a problem :)
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Just to put my two coppers in, as a person playing a fighter, soon to be weaponmaster. *crosses fingers*
My weapon of choice is a two-bladed sword I have present stats of what 18, 15, 13, 13, 10, 8, at level 9. I think I've upped dex and str so far, I am eventually going to make the Int 14 somewhere after 20th, or close too, and put some skill points in lore, purely for RP purposes. The rest I haven't really planned, most likely all str.
I am comfortably 'tucked' into full plate armor, at present, but I'm more the sort that would use whatever I can get my hands on, or make. I keep my face and tattoo's covered as much as possible, I'm a little self conscious of them, or more to the point I'm self conscious of what others think of them. Which tends to make me grumpy when people start asking...and somewhat shy of people in general. He's dedicated to his weapon, almost overly so because of his past, and is always looking for a better way to fight with it. Hence why he's probably going to up his Int, he's even going to read books...
As for your question, IMO there is really no 'superior' way to make your char, honeslty I would suggest you come up with a character concept first. Outline and history are much more important on this server than stats IMO. After you have the concept and maybe even a few set progression goals as to where you want your char to end up, set your char stats and skills to match the outline. But, always remember even though you set up your char to develope one way, once your in the game you might find yourself RP'n yourself in a totally different direction. Don't set anything in stone and keep an open mind as to where your character might progress...I think you'll enjoy it more that way and that's really the important part.