The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: ShiffDrgnhrt on February 04, 2007, 03:43:07 PM
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Ok, Before you tell me about the Disciplined Lives of monks and straying from that path is a No-No and your not allowed back in, Read ALL this Thread.... PLEASE.
OK, to start, we all know a monk is an individual who has dedicated their lives to the perfection of there body and the art of unarmed combat. OK, thats great for Monks.
Now Fighters, we all know, Dedicate themselves to the art of war, and those who become Weapon Masters they become dedicated to becoming the master of ONE specific Weapon...
SO! WHY in the world could a Monk NOT be allowed to not only dedicate himself to the perfection of his mind and body, but also dedicate himself to the perfection of fighting with his body.
We have all heard at one point or another of the Shaolin Monks, who dedicate there lives to the philosophies of Buddha, and to the perfection of mind and body through the martial arts of Shaolin, Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and a myraid of other Mind-and-Body martial arts. We have also all heard of the Samurai, who despite being highly trained warriors with seemingly no other redeemable facets, The Ideal Samurai was also a philosopher and poet, and most often a learned man. Now the two have obvious differences, A Shaolin monk is obviously more balanced between philosophy and martial skill, and a Samurai is much more of a warrior in most chases.
Now to the reason for this Thread. I want to know if I could make, FROM CHAR APproval, a Monk Fighter/Fighter Monk. I understand rules and such, but i think I make a good argument for my case. Now, I am willing to put restrictions on this sort of arrangement. I know Monks are limited in the Weapons they can use, so I would not expand it, and if i wanted to it would be to exotic weapons (katana, shuriken, kama) that a Monk/Samurai would have used. At the same time, I would also take a limited number of fighter classes, probably 5-8 in order to only added some of the fighting skill to the Monk. I would RP him as being a monk entirely, being a very defense oriented person, not one seeking to go "hunting" all the time. Now, I'm sure your all thinking NO!, but give it some thought. And don't just respond with "NO, Monks cant Multiclass like that." I'd like some serious discussion about it if I am to let this drop. Thank you
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I understand your argument, but... I only have two things to say.
First, the ONLY reason to split Monk and Fighter level is to get a higher AB, and that still hurts you in the long run, because you lose out on quicker access to the Monk abilities.
Second, the Team cannot make exceptions, because they have to treat everyone the same way to keep things fair. If they make an exception for one person, they have to make it for everyone. I can make a wonderful case for why Grok should have Scent, but he's not going to if he doesn't go Bear Warrior.
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Well... I understand that, but I want to hear what the team would say....
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Frankly I think it's more of a balance issue rather than RP reasons, although I could name a few (vows being one).
A monk multiclass is very strong, infact, pretty much divine at high levels... you'd get rather corny multiclassing if you allow it :p and powergaming is already an issue with whats allowed.
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Wait, how is multiclassin a Monk potentially powergamin or divine?
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Wisdom bonus to Ac to begin with, monk speed, immunities, spellresistance and so forth.
Back when NWN just came out every person on a PVP server had 1 monk level at least just for the wisdom bonus... :P
Plus it doesnt make sense that a monk would be able to master himself and achive what he does (immunities, resistance and so forth) if he dedicates himself to another path as well... and the fact you take levels in another class only delay it a bit.. he shouldn't be able to achive them at all.
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So a Monk is basically Strong all by itself?
Cause I come up with these ideas not to make the ultimate warrior, but more to make an interesting Character.
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A monk is stupendously strong, single-classed. At low levels, the AC is rough, but as it creeps ahead, the character's overall power gets INSANE.
Remember that you'd have to RP a lawful alignment, though.
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Thats not hard fer me the alignment part. I live that life to begin with. I actually had a really interesting Idea of what he'd be like too
He wasnt even gonna be able to speak common
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Then why not just make a straight monk, or an Unarmed WM?
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you can have an unarmed weaponmaster? maybe a cleric/weaponmaster/sacred fist :O
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Nice, Witch Hunter.
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because I wouldnt feel that he is really the pious monk I'm aiming for. And you can't say that in their Prime, the Shaolin monks were not Excellent warriors as well. They used the skills of MArtial arts to bring to themselves both strength, discipline, and spiritual one ness. Tai Chi and Pa Kua are in essence MArtial arts and can be used in combat, but they are more for focusig energy and healing. Tai Chi, although meaning Supreme Ultimate Fist, is used in modern medicine to promote health and longevity. I myself practice Shaolin and there is MUCH more to it then being able to break bricks and jump through the air. If you mind and body are not disciplined the training is useless.
If fact that is step one in becoming disciplined. Shaolin focuses on strength, but once you master it and begin to learn the arts of Tai Chi, you begin to gain the mental and spiritual power that truly makese Kung Fu Deadly.
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You can have a multi-classed monk character, but if you start with monk and take other levels, you cannot take additional monk levels. If you start with some other class and move to Monk, then you cannot take any more levels in the first class, or else you will forfeit your right to continue to take levels as a monk.
A monk's benefits come from dedicating his life to that path. If he ever leaves that path, he cannot progress along that path any longer.
I think it's pretty clearly spelled out here (http://nwn.layonara.com/Restricted%20Multiclassing).
It's a balance issue.
It's a power-build issue.
It's a D&D 3rd edition rule (upon which NWN is based).
It's a "Leanthar does not want it to be any other way" issue.
I'm kind of confused by this: WHY in the world could a Monk NOT be allowed to not only dedicate himself to the perfection of his mind and body, but also dedicate himself to the perfection of fighting with his body.
A high-level monk does fight with his body, and quite effectively at that. At some point, his effectiveness when unarmed surpasses his effectiveness when armed.
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Well thats the answer i was aimin to get. Ok, I think i got the idea, but have one last question... A CDQ is necessary to go FROM To monk, right? And im guessingya have to be a certain lvl AND have the CDT for it. Right?
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By the way, you can't make an unarmed weaponsmaster. That is unless something has changed I'm unaware of.
Weaponsmasters must be proficient with a melee weapon (fists not included).
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The same rules apply for all multiclassing and CDQs, in terms of levels. Since monk is not a PrC, you probably need to wait until level 10.
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OK, then I guess I'm done here. Thank you
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Polak76 - 2/4/2007 5:35 PM
By the way, you can't make an unarmed weaponsmaster. That is unless something has changed I'm unaware of.
Weaponsmasters must be proficient with a melee weapon (fists not included).
No, a weapon master must have the feat Weapon Focus in a melee weapon.
No idea if NWN counts fists as a "melee weapon" or if you could take WM in unarmed strike if you burnt a feat on Weap. Foc. in longsword or something.
However, you sure could be a Kama weaponmaster.
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You can't get Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike]?
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You can have weaponfocus in unarmed
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There is no weapon of choice for unarmed, either that or it's not counted in the melee 'weapon' menu. That's what Talan is driving at. Trust the man. He looks at it far too much.
*shifty eyes*
Wait... I look at it far too much. Talan looks once, but at the actual numbers, so he's generally right. And saving time I might add.
As for all this talk about monks... geesh. Lay off. Not like they can hit for more then 25! Though they are good at the following expression: Look at me! You're all dead and I'm running like the wind! Weeee!
*sticks a big playful tongue out at his monk friends*
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Believe me, I've tried... imagine a level 20 monk/WM 7... the high BAB, the extra AB, the 1-20 +3 (17-20/x3) (assuming free multiclassing). from a powerbuild POV, it's insane!
Alas, no, unarmed does not count as melee weapon for WM class... unless Leanthar has changed that rule?
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ShiffDrgnhrt - 2/4/2007 7:06 PM So a Monk is basically Strong all by itself? Cause I come up with these ideas not to make the ultimate warrior, but more to make an interesting Character.
I only have to say 2 things here and its a split decision on my part. Yes there is balance.
But
the monks, Shaolin in example, have diferent weapons and style training. There for even if they are monk they still use, the boa, the sword and other weapons that they were trained in the monestary.
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ShiffDrgnhrt - 2/4/2007 7:06 PM So a Monk is basically Strong all by itself? Cause I come up with these ideas not to make the ultimate warrior, but more to make an interesting Character.
I only have to say 2 things here and its a split decision on my part. Yes there is balance.
But
the monks, Shaolin in example, have diferent weapons and style training. There for even if they are monk they still use, the boa, the sword and other weapons that they were trained in the monestary.
and yes it is a RL example, but its a fantsy world although many things in this game has been picked from real life.
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NWN Monks have access to training in all sorts of weapons and at high levels (17-20)could be considered masters of them (see them fight a lvl 6 fighter with a Kama), maybe not in the same level as a Weapon Master... But even RL Shao-Lin Monks have inner-discipline and focus as their greatest asset, and I think that is what is being emphasized here... That the team wants Monks to be more about their inner make-up, than their external skills.
I think the Cleric/Fighter/Sacred Fist could be a great answer to that though... Monk Abilities are replaced with cleric spells, and you'd be able to get most of the monk combat feats with your fighter levels... You could walk around saying your a monk, as long as it is a Sacred Fist oreder or some previously unknown order and no one would be the wiser... Except those naughty meta-games out there.
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Clerics are clerics, and making the class be something else than that would most probably be seriously frowned upon and IC-ly might result in losing of clerical powers (a cleric not acting like a cleric is kind of straying away from the teachings and the duties laid forth by your deity, in my opinion). :)
Edit: This is only applied to clerics pretending to be something else, not the actual cases they ARE something else (read: multiclassed). ;)
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Thats fair... I was just saying that there might be a way to play a character similar to what is desired without the monk/fighter build.
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gilshem ironstone - 2/5/2007 5:58 AM
NWN Monks have access to training in all sorts of weapons and at high levels (17-20)could be considered masters of them (see them fight a lvl 6 fighter with a Kama), maybe not in the same level as a Weapon Master...
What kind of weapons are you talking about? I thought Monks could only use the Kama and the few others in the Monk WP (club, dagger, handaxe, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, quarterstaff, shuriken, kama and sling [WHY NOT KATANA >:/ ]).
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ShiffDrgnhrt - 2/5/2007 8:38 AM
gilshem ironstone - 2/5/2007 5:58 AM
NWN Monks have access to training in all sorts of weapons and at high levels (17-20)could be considered masters of them (see them fight a lvl 6 fighter with a Kama), maybe not in the same level as a Weapon Master...
What kind of weapons are you talking about? I thought Monks could only use the Kama and the few others in the Monk WP (club, dagger, handaxe, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, quarterstaff, shuriken, kama and sling [WHY NOT KATANA >:/ ]).
that's starting weapons, you can take weapon proficiencies tog et what every weapon you dream of =D.
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Just to play devils advocate here...
Yes in RL you have Shaolin Monks and Samurai who do the whole monk type thing and use weapons and can use them as a base of an argument for Monk/Fighter levels as you have but....
This is a FANTASY game setting as the last time I checked no RL monk was immune to disease etc, run twice as fast as everyone else, they tend to die when shot, tend to die when connecting with the sharp edge of sword so I fail to see how RL examples of such things can be used to justify fighter levels for a monk, especially when the rules on multi-classing monks are established and very clear.
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The katana is nothing more than a differently-named Bastard Sword. Its stats are exactly the same, because the katana is simply a variant bastard sword. Why they included it in NWN, I can never guess.
In any case, if you want to use other weapons as a monk, just (gasp) take other Weapon Proficiencies.
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Erm.....Stephen.....Have you ever actually fought RL with either sword?
Bastard Sword is classed as hand and a half and Katana two handed for a start before we even get onto the fact that the blades are completely different shapes and the fighting styles used for each sword being dramatically different.
You would break your wrist if you attempted half of the things that can be done with a Katana with a Bastard Sword.
D&D versions 3 & 3.5 don't even have a Katana listed in the players handbook although both do state the Bastard Sword is a hand and a half sword, hence why it is classed as an exotic weapon.
I guess they included it in NWN to allow people to RP the differences in the fighting styles.
But...having checked the Lore entry on Monks...Stephen is quite right in his suggestion that if you wish to have a monk who fights with other weapons then simply take other weapon proficiencies as there is nothing to say you can't. Yes, monk remaining unarmed or using a kama gains a unique base attack bonus but you'd sacrifice that anyway using a Katana regardless of if you take fighter levels or not so why would fighter levels make such a difference if all you simply wish to do is fight with another weapon?
Oh and yes....I have spent FAR too much time both with re-enactors and at the Royal Armories, discussing fighting styles of swords, watching demonstrations which were put together after long and intensive study of actual fighting manuals written in the relevant period for the weapon and also getting to use the weapons myself.
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*Grins.* I'm only speaking from a D&D perspective, DMOE. Believe me, I know the difference between your typical arming sword and your typical katana.
Secondly, I'm afraid you're not quite right about the Katana. It is a one-handed weapon; I've dual-wielded them in the OC. Statistically, the katana is IDENTICAL to the bastard sword, both in NWN and PnP, as both are 1d10 Slashing 19(18?)-20/x2 weapons which can be wielded (in PnP) as two-handed with the Martial Weapon Proficiency, or one-handed with the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It's the same way dwarven waraxes are handled.
The reason the katana is not listed in the handbooks is because the katana is a carbon-copy of the bastard sword, mechanically. In the Alternate Weapons section of the DMG and Arms & Equipment Guide, it says to use bastard sword stats for a katana, just as one should use Club stats for a shillelagh (I'm spelling that wrong, I'm sure) and kukri stats for a tanto.
;) I've done plenty of the reenactment bits myself, and melee weaponry is an interesting hobby of mine.
Sadly, I don't have the money to actually own any of the fun pieces of dangerous metal that my instructors let me play with.
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i think Stephen was talking about stat wise for NWN DMOE. becuase they are exactly the same weapon stat wise.
1d10 dmg, 19-20/x2 crit range Exotic weapon proficiencyslashing dmg. nothign different but graphics.*shrugs*
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*Shake his head at the mention of a Katana being a bastard sword*
M'Lord, I think you should speak with my friend M'Lord Pandorn who is a weapon master of the Katana. YOu would be surprised at what he could teach you about the use of this fine blade. Oh yes, I will never touch it, but I can see the grace in its use.
// in d&d it is a single hand weapon, but the Katana is truly a two hand weapon, you are talking of the smaller version called the wakazashi which is used to swiftly cut if a sword lock is made. Also used in the traditional hara-kiri
Basicaly the Katana is a blade that vary from 27 inch to 30 inch in lenth as the Wakazashi varise from 18 to 21 inch generaly. there is also a big diference in weight between the two.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/5/2007 7:37 PM
Secondly, I'm afraid you're not quite right about the Katana. It is a one-handed weapon; I've dual-wielded them in the OC.
Just because you have dual-wielded them does not mean that is there intended use or make them one handed.
Being the first place I could be bothered to look...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana)
"The katana was primarily used for cutting, and intended for use with a two-handed grip."
And for those who don't trust Wikipedia...
http://www.jitsuka.org/jitsuka/sword.htm#GRIP (http://www.jitsuka.org/jitsuka/sword.htm#GRIP)
"The katana is held in both hands with the right hand nearest the tsuba. The tip should be slightly raised and the sharp edge away from you"
There was one famous Samurai warrior who learned to wield a katana in one hand, instead of the usual two-handed grip, and began the development of a style of fighting using two swords. He was Miyamoto Musashi and he was most certainly the exception to the normal two handed fighting style.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A681004 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A681004)
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Actually, the Katana is most affective when wielded with two hands since the blade was made primarily for chopping(slashing). You can not get a much force using a Katana Onehanded as you could two handed, although they can be used either way... (owns his own KAtanas)
Oh and another thing. The only reason I wanted fighter lvls for the monk would be for the extra Weapon specialization on the Kama... But i guess that is pwr gaming
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I actually have a new question. How do monks fit in to Layo... Like are they servants of the gods like clerics and paladins, are they scholars? Where are they most often from? Is there a culture on Layo that emphasizes a monks way of life?
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Short answer: Yes
Long answer: They are disciplined in all aspects of their lives, and so if they are believers in a particular deity, then their faith would surely follow along such lines. There's a fair latitude available for this kind of thing.
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DMOE - 2/5/2007 2:43 PM Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/5/2007 7:37 PM
Secondly, I'm afraid you're not quite right about the Katana. It is a one-handed weapon; I've dual-wielded them in the OC.
Being the first place I could be bothered to look...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana)
"The katana was primarily used for cutting, and intended for use with a two-handed grip."
Just because you have dual-wielded them does not mean that is there intended use or make them one handed.
And for those who don't trust Wikipedia...
http://www.jitsuka.org/jitsuka/sword.htm#GRIP (http://www.jitsuka.org/jitsuka/sword.htm#GRIP)
"The katana is held in both hands with the right hand nearest the tsuba. The tip should be slightly raised and the sharp edge away from you"
Allow me to reiterate: In the OC. Original Campaign. This was intended as proof that they are considered one-handed weapons in NWN. ;) I know how to properly hold a katana, though honestly my kendo is... Pathetic and sloppy.
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I wasn't referring to them in NWN when I said they were classed as two handed weapons but RL I think we've both managed to miss each others points confusing them with either RL or D&D.
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Right...
Let's keep the rest of this thread on the original topic (which I think has been addressed) or it gets the ol' locky-locky. :)
Which incidentally is a 1-handed weapon that I can dual-wield.
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That's great, Dorg. *Chuckles.* And aye to that, DMOE. Now that we understand each other...
In NWN, an unarmed Fighter is a moderately weak thing... Especially when you take Grapple checks into account for PnP, along with spiked armor, gauntlets, etc.
So, my final advice: Don't multiclass Fighter with Monk.