The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: kenty191 on February 14, 2007, 08:45:56 AM
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Hi all, this is a question I have had for a while. My old wizard character had an imp who I rped as being able to speak, all be it in very unintelligent broken language. However my recent wizard has a Pseudodragon as his familiar and I am unsure whether all familiars are able to speak.
I would like both other players oppinions on this but also some clarification from a GM or another authority is possible.
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Pixies and imps can talk. Other familiars cannot.
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Thats great to know, I'll carry on RPing the Pseudodragon as roaring and grunting. :D Glad to have clear clarification. Thanks Dorg
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I have seen peopleroleplay talking familiars.
Now Jacchri as a sorcerer have a pixie as well.Probably not 100% correct but I roleplay his pixie as someone he saved from orcs and she just decided to stay with him, so I dont think it is in the true sense a familiar, but rather a friend. And I roleplay her speaking so that other people can hear her as well.
Now if you wanted tofollow the rules to the letter, then a familiar is limited to the following: *The master and his familiar has an empathic link for a certain distance and as such they can communicate general emotional content.
* Once the master is level 5, they can commmunicate verbally as if they use the same language, but no others can understand them, except with magical help
* Once the master is level 7, a familiar can communicate with things of the same type as itself. So bats with bats and so forth.
Hope that helps.
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*looks to Dorganath*
Guess I was to slow. But you now raised another question in my mind.
If pixies and imps retain their talking ability I would assume something like the panther would retain it as well.
So would for example a ranger with the ear of animal be able to communicate with his familiar (if he multiclassed into a sorc/wiz) and others that understand animal understand the conversation?
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Ah darn... so much for good 'ol Oddpetal.. the spastic fairydragon
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Ravens can also speak a single extra language of their master's choosing. One would assume that this is limited to the languages the master knows.
So really folks forget about those terrible pixies and go with the raven that has at least some class.
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Creature familiars (panthers, rats, whatever) are still animals and can "communicate" to the same degree as animals can.
They cannot, however, speak in common or some other "language".
Keep in mind that the Ear for the Animal Language is not so much a language as it is a common means of communication with animals. People who have entire conversations in Animal kind of misses the point of the thing. Animals, with very few exceptions, lack the intelligence to form full thoughts and sentences with perfect grammar.
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Well, what about if someone is talking to your Animal Companion in the ANimal Language. Since I cant make him speak the animal tongue, couldnt i speak to the other person through him with common?
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No. If you must respond, then do so via Tell. No one else around should understand the animal's response. Best to *emote* the animal's reaction in the Talk channel and send an appropriate response via Tell.
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Oh, well that makes sense in a public situation, what if its just you and the other person + your animal buddy
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The same thing could be done for that situation too. :)
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ShiffDrgnhrt - 2/14/2007 9:22 AM
Well, what about if someone is talking to your Animal Companion in the Animal Language. Since I cant make him speak the animal tongue, couldnt i speak to the other person through him with common?
There's a /o command for that, and I did manage to use it to get Earl's Dog to speak in animal before, so that only druids and rangers knew what it was saying. I think it was "/o a [insert text here]" or "/dm a [text]" or something of that nature. I remember I had to put in what he had to say between the parenthesis for it to work... I'll try it a little after work and find the exact command I used.
For Familiars it should be "/o f [text]" and for summons "/o s [text]" Normally if you don't use the [parentheses] around the statements, it doesn't use the language tongue. I remember Oscar too having his summoned voraxian barbarian talking to dwarves he met in dwarven.
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Weeblie - 2/14/2007 12:31 PM The same thing could be done for that situation too. :)
The same thing should be done for that situation too.
It's not magically OK to work around mechanics, rules and good RP just because no one else is watching.
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kenty191 - 2/14/2007 8:45 AM Hi all, this is a question I have had for a while. My old wizard character had an imp who I rped as being able to speak, all be it in very unintelligent broken language. However my recent wizard has a Pseudodragon as his familiar and I am unsure whether all familiars are able to speak.
I would like both other players oppinions on this but also some clarification from a GM or another authority is possible.
Keep in mind that the master and familiar can always communiate with each other. That doesn't mean they are talking Jive *smiles* or speaking to each other. It is a telepathic link between the two. Edit: I should have read the entire post first, just wanted to add that Pixies speak Sylvan and Common naturally, and can of course learn other languages! *goes and puts his app in for his pixie to speak drow!!! =P hehe
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So its ok to make ur Panther AC speak Animal tongue, to a Druid? Or is it not ok? I'm starting tah get confused
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Clarification on intrapersonal communication. Familiars have an empathic link to their casters not telepathic, and there is no bond of any kind other then friendship between Ranger and Druid companions.
Yes Panther companions speak Animal. Just keep in mind that Animal tongue spoken with animal intellegance and is not "I saw the large party of orcs headed south about 3 hours ago," it is, "Two leggers, several. Smelled strong."
~row
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Er since when could Fairy Dragons not talk. As logn as i've known Dragons in general they've all been able to talk. The game eveng ives the Dragons Personallities int heir descirption at creation. Also in shadows of undrentide Your first task is to answer the riddles of a fairy dragon. Plus the dragons have Int and Char scores. The fairy dragon has 12 char adn 14 int.
Most orcs have alot lower than 14 int, yet they can talk, and the 12 char state that they have apersonallity. These are miniature dragons, The game describes the psuedo dragons a minaiture fire dragons, jsut they aren't evil. So if they are everythign a dragon is except they are smaller in size, why can't they talk?
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Reventage - 2/14/2007 6:13 PM
Ravens can also speak a single extra language of their master's choosing. One would assume that this is limited to the languages the master knows.
So really folks forget about those terrible pixies and go with the raven that has at least some class.
Ravens do! :)
Though, that always left me wondering. I never explored this part of rp with Daeron's raven, because I didn't know for sure if it could. So I wouldn't mind a yes or no on whether it should be able to speak a language of his master's choosing.
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That is true. My Jearick is right bout them Dragons know how tah speak proper
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Layonara specific Fairy Dragons do not speak common. Please keep in mind when you consider the RP of your familiar that you are not using Forgotten Realms lore or any other boxed D'nD module, you are in fact in Layonara which has it's own copywritten lore.
Jearick Hgar - 2/14/2007 3:00 PM
Er since when could Fairy Dragons not talk. As logn as i've known Dragons in general they've all been able to talk. The game eveng ives the Dragons Personallities int heir descirption at creation. Also in shadows of undrentide Your first task is to answer the riddles of a fairy dragon. Plus the dragons have Int and Char scores. The fairy dragon has 12 char adn 14 int.
Most orcs have alot lower than 14 int, yet they can talk, and the 12 char state that they have apersonallity. These are miniature dragons, The game describes the psuedo dragons a minaiture fire dragons, jsut they aren't evil. So if they are everythign a dragon is except they are smaller in size, why can't they talk?
~row
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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pseudodragon.htm
Now, to put the clamps on anyone who picks up on the telepathic communication mentioned here, there is no telepathy in Layonara for PCs, and it should not be RPed at all, whether directly or through their familiars.
Keep in mind also that Pseudodragons and Faerie dragons are not standard D&D familiars.
And what Rowana stated is also true. Layonara is not Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or any other campaign setting. Layonara's rules override any others.
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"Telepathy (Su)
Pseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet. "
So it is capable of speaking with the caster via telepathy? (I mean a one way conversation, the caster can't use telepathy to converse back)
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Just adding a bit on the subject; to me, it would be within reason that familiars, who have some resemblance to animals (panthers, bats, doggies and so on), won't be speaking any "humanoid" language. Though their intelligence is higher than the normal 1 or 2 for animals, their evolution isn't - their language will still be growls and groans (the animal language, right?), which would translate into something like Rowana said. Their intelligence would moreover allow them to understand languages, not restricted to animal.
However the "monstrous" familiars (imps, eyeballs, mephits, and pixies) all have an intelligence higher than ten, even in the wild, and should therefore be able to speak. The Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual even clarifies that they do speak common (eyeballs being beholderkin). Pseudodragons are something special here, as the manual states that "A pseudodragon can communicate telepathically and can also vocalize animal noises, such as a rasping purr (pleasure), a hiss (unpleasant surprise), a chirp (desire), or a growl (anger). As to Fairydragons, are there anybody here who remember talkative Riisi from SoU? ;)
But again, it was from the Monster Manual... and Riisi was Forgotten Realms.
There is some useful links about roleplaying with a familiar around the forum, here's a couple:
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30669&posts=13&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=30669&posts=13&start=1)
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23516&posts=11&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=23516&posts=11&start=1)
♣ Dyslogia
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Witch Hunter - 2/14/2007 3:31 PM "Telepathy (Su) Pseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet. "
So it is capable of speaking with the caster via telepathy? (I mean a one way conversation, the caster can't use telepathy to converse back)
Written by me just above your post: Now, to put the clamps on anyone who picks up on the telepathic communication mentioned here, there is no telepathy in Layonara for PCs, and it should not be RPed at all, whether directly or through their familiars.
To say yet again, familiars can communicate through an empathic link with the wizard/sorcerer.
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Are we missing the point that this isnt FORGETTEN REALMS? That would mean anything in Ice Wind Dale, Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, or the Dungeons and Dragons Books (DM guide, players hand book, monster manual, ETC) does not apply here? Layo is Leanthars creation, not "Wizards of the Coast's" (TM). So we should remember that..... Right?
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And just in case anyone wants to ask again, as Dorganath Said There is no telepathy in Layonare
Empathy On the other hand is NOT TELEPATHY!!!! Instead of relaying thoughts, empathy is the relaying of emtions. So if Bob's psuedoDragon is hungry, Bob might pick on that by becoming hungry himself. Or if Bob's PD is mad, Bob might notice by becomin a bit miffed himself, or at least sensing that Little Bob is upset
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well, thanks for the clarification..
IWO, from the higher ups:
NO, although they have high INT scores, the only things that can speak are imps and fairys. end of story.
its too bad, I would like my lil dragon to speak, but I'd rather have a good RP standing than go round the rules, eh?
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Jearick Hgar - 2/14/2007 1:00 PM
Er since when could Fairy Dragons not talk. As logn as i've known Dragons in general they've all been able to talk. The game eveng ives the Dragons Personallities int heir descirption at creation. Also in shadows of undrentide Your first task is to answer the riddles of a fairy dragon. Plus the dragons have Int and Char scores. The fairy dragon has 12 char adn 14 int.
Most orcs have alot lower than 14 int, yet they can talk, and the 12 char state that they have apersonallity. These are miniature dragons, The game describes the psuedo dragons a minaiture fire dragons, jsut they aren't evil. So if they are everythign a dragon is except they are smaller in size, why can't they talk?
Well if you look up Pseudodragon in the MM, it says "A pseudodragon can communicate telepathically and can also vocalize animal noises, such as a reasping pure, hiss, a chir, or a grow."
It says nothing about them being able to talk. In fact it goes as far as to describe the methods the pseudo(which means fake)dragon can communicate. So unless changed by the Layo DM team, they can not talk. Which by the way the DM team here says no telepathy, so I assume they communicate with empathy instead in Layo.
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Lilswanwillow - 2/14/2007 1:55 PM
well, thanks for the clarification..
IWO, from the higher ups:
NO, although they have high INT scores, the only things that can speak are imps and fairys. end of story.
its too bad, I would like my lil dragon to speak, but I'd rather have a good RP standing than go round the rules, eh?
Well if a creature does not have a vocal box, or the means to form certain sounds, they simply can not. They are left with barks, howls, purring, and hissing. With D&D it is always a good idea to look a creature up in a MM, if you have one, to determine things such as what they can speak.
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ShiffDrgnhrt - 2/14/2007 1:51 PM
Are we missing the point that this isnt FORGETTEN REALMS? That would mean anything in Ice Wind Dale, Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, or the Dungeons and Dragons Books (DM guide, players hand book, monster manual, ETC) does not apply here? Layo is Leanthars creation, not "Wizards of the Coast's" (TM). So we should remember that..... Right?
Of course we remember that. However we also know that Leanther made this world from D&D, and unless stated differently from D&D in LORE or the layo handbook, all the same rules apply in the world of Layonara that apply in D&D 3.0.
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- post removed after realizing it sounded needlessly petulant and personal.
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OK, this is just getting silly.
Let me summarize.
A wizard or sorcerer shares an empathic link with his/her familiar.
With the exceptions of Faerie Dragons, Imps and Pixies, familiars do not speak common.
Magical beast or not, an animal that is a familiar does not simply gain the necessary structures (vocal cords, dental structure, pallate shape, facial muscles, etc) to speak in the language of humanoids.
THERE IS NO TELEPATHY.
Animal companions, at best, can communicate through the use of the Animal language, but then only in a manner befitting the animal's natural intelligence.
A ranger/druid and his/her animal companion share no sort of communicative link other that a strong bond of friendship.
Without exception, animal companions do not speak Common or any other humanoid language.
EDIT: and this thread will not turn into a "why familiars are broken" thread.
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For those of us who have RPed our familiars who do not fall into your guidelines as acceptable having spoken in the past, do we retroactively state that our familiars never spoke common, or must we invent a reason why this is no longer the case?
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After some research, I have added Faerie dragons to the above list. They are specifically called out as being able to speak.
All others simply lack the capacity to vocalize words.
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or.. we could just not move on and not question the now lack of talking...
a sort of cosmic hiccup
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I thought that psudo dragons can talk? Fairy dragons do riddles to cofuse adventruers
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Gah!.. you didn't read >< Dorgie said layonara's world setting is DIFFRENT than the DnD setting.. meaning.. animal behavior and creature habits
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lunchboxkilla - 2/14/2007 5:56 PM
I thought that psudo dragons can talk? Fairy dragons do riddles to cofuse adventruers
But they can not, just look it up in the Monster Manual.
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Dorganath - 2/14/2007 7:39 PM After some research, I have added Faerie dragons to the above list. They are specifically called out as being able to speak.
All others simply lack the capacity to vocalize words.
I hate to revisit something I think has already been covered, but for clarification... It's been stated that Ravens could speak Common (or ONE other language the character is fluent in), earlier in the thread. Is this the case? If not, can ravens still speak a limited number of words (say, one per HD) in Common (or other)? I just think that that would be a really cool RP device. I'm unsure as to whether or not RL ravens can (with training) vocalize recognizable words... On the other hand, if parrots can... *Shrugs.* As a side note, I would personally prefer the second (third, counting no speech) option, that of limited vocabulary.
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FAAAAHH!
Zucker!.. READ
Layonara's rules are diffrent... that being that the only two familiar who can talk are the ones listed...
This isn't DnD
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:) I understand, Doc, just making a half-question, half-suggestion.
I really think the one word per HD (perhaps plus the caster or familiar's INT bonus) would be a pretty sweet RP device, and there's pretty decent precedent for birds to be able to learn a LIMITED vocabulary.
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Gah!
Going by D&D rules a Raven woud speak one language but that is a special ability, not a characteristic of the species in particular. NWN replaces this RP-ish ability with something else. In this, I believe the Raven is a bit ambiguous, but clearly we cannot just pick and choose between what NWN gives and what PnP rules would give when it suits us to do so, which would in effect be a combination of the best of both. I'm afraid I can concoct no official stance on that question.
If you wan my personal opinion, I would lean far more heavily toward a Raven not being able to "speak" at all or perhaps be able to appropriately use a small vocabulary of words in correct context (1-2/level) rather than have a bird be able to carry on full conversations in perfect Common/Elvish/Whateverish. Even then, there's be a lot of trust put into the players to keep that vocabulary properly sized to the same dozen or so words rather than choosing those dozen or so words as convenient. The cyinic in me says there'd be plenty of people who abuse the limited vocabulary, and so then I'd lean back toward no speaking at all. If it were my campaign, this would be the "house rule", regardless of what the handbook says. A Raven is an animal, a smart animal, but still an animal. Communicating with a wizard as a familiar is one thing...communicating to Joe Character is another, in my opinion.
Sorry, that's not really clarifying, but it's the best I can do.
On a personal note, I find this proverbial hair to be very finely split by now. As with most things, a dash of common sense goes a long way.
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"But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only, That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour. Nothing further then he uttered - not a feather then he fluttered - Till I scarcely more than muttered `Other friends have flown before - On the morrow will he leave me, as my hopes have flown before.' Then the bird said, `Nevermore.' " - Edgar Allan Poe
http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html
hehe, sorry Dorg, I couldn't resist. But this is what I thought of when reading all about these talking Ravens.
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Lalaith Va'lash - 2/14/2007 10:12 PM
"But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only, That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour. Nothing further then he uttered - not a feather then he fluttered - Till I scarcely more than muttered `Other friends have flown before - On the morrow will he leave me, as my hopes have flown before.' Then the bird said, `Nevermore.' " - Edgar Allan Poe
http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html
hehe, sorry Dorg, I couldn't resist. But this is what I thought of when reading all about these talking Ravens.
:) Ditto.
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Lalaith Va'lash - 2/14/2007 7:12 PM
"But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only, That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour. Nothing further then he uttered - not a feather then he fluttered - Till I scarcely more than muttered `Other friends have flown before - On the morrow will he leave me, as my hopes have flown before.' Then the bird said, `Nevermore.' " - Edgar Allan Poe
http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html
hehe, sorry Dorg, I couldn't resist. But this is what I thought of when reading all about these talking Ravens.
that's one of my fav poems of allt ime =D. But on a differ note. i didn't read the MM before posting and blah, guess Psuedos don't talk, but i'm glad Fairy dragons can. That's pretty much all i was pushing for. I also agree that Ravens might be able to say a few words, and i think it's safe to trust the player community with rping that, especially if someone started a full fledged convo with their familiar someone woudl send them a tell about it. i know iw ould =D
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Dorganath - 2/14/2007 1:35 PM Witch Hunter - 2/14/2007 3:31 PM "Telepathy (Su) Pseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet. "
So it is capable of speaking with the caster via telepathy? (I mean a one way conversation, the caster can't use telepathy to converse back)
Written by me just above your post: Now, to put the clamps on anyone who picks up on the telepathic communication mentioned here, there is no telepathy in Layonara for PCs, and it should not be RPed at all, whether directly or through their familiars.
To say yet again, familiars can communicate through an empathic link with the wizard/sorcerer.
But you stated "for pcs" - are familiars considered a PC?
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Every player controlled creature is under that rule.
The only time it might be allowed would be on a DM quest when the DM explicitily tell you that it's allowed (say... the High Lich of Nastiness has broken into your mind and he's talking with you in that way!).
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Witch Hunter - 2/15/2007 1:30 AM Dorganath - 2/14/2007 1:35 PM Witch Hunter - 2/14/2007 3:31 PM "Telepathy (Su) Pseudodragons can communicate telepathically with creatures that speak Common or Sylvan, provided they are within 60 feet. "
So it is capable of speaking with the caster via telepathy? (I mean a one way conversation, the caster can't use telepathy to converse back)
Written by me just above your post: Now, to put the clamps on anyone who picks up on the telepathic communication mentioned here, there is no telepathy in Layonara for PCs, and it should not be RPed at all, whether directly or through their familiars.
To say yet again, familiars can communicate through an empathic link with the wizard/sorcerer.
But you stated "for pcs" - are familiars considered a PC?
*sighs* I also said, "whether directly or through their familiars".
Please do not look for the loopholes on this any further. Your character's familiar is an extension of your character. By possessing or speaking through said familiar, it becomes a PC as well. Now...once more with emphasis...
There is no telepathy in Layonara.
As a player, it is not permitted to use telepathy in any way.
And in case anyone else wants to start playing "what if" on this particular issue, I suggest you read this first (http://thread-view.asp?tid=20093&posts=11&start=1).
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I've found it to be very difficult to actually pull of a Familiar talking without it being hokey or just silly. Certain people, who shall remain nameless because it's 9am and I'm tired, have played a talking familiar in the past rather well. I was impressed, listening, and RPing back. However, most of the time, flying around a random PC in circles and talking in a cutsie voice is just bothersome. To me, at least. I've always found the provided sound effects and emotes to a statement a character said to be much more entertaining.
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Ok, old thread though do believe there are missing posts such as latest comments to this thread. Not sure if I actually posted to here before or not but if so the the latest would be dated to sometime this year.
Anyways, about the bit on talking ravens? I managed to dig up some info on ravens from the Wikipedia site.
Common Raven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Raven)
Scroll down to where it mentions intelligence and vocalization.
Ravers are in fact quite intelligent birds, almost the most intelligent of all birds not to mention very clever tricksters. Makes for good rping opportunities for raven owners. ;)
In addition, ravens can speak but only through mimicry like parrots. Though said they can also mimic other sounds too.
Oh, and ummm, people might want to be careful flipping coins when ravens are near... shiny round object might end up getting taken and stashed away some where.
Note: all that was said were references to what is mentioned on Wiki. :p
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Ravens do not speak in Layonara.
They can squawk, make a variety of sounds and show other signs of animal-level intelligence, but they do not speak.
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Ravens do not speak in Layonara.
They can squawk, make a variety of sounds and show other signs of animal-level intelligence, but they do not speak.
Geez, you guys are just so determined about that. Can't even allow the very minor level of mimicry witch in a since is still non to very low intelligent speaking. Frankly its just saying something that one heard with out even knowing what it means and in an animals mimicry it would be no more than one or two words.
Oh well, at least we can still use the rest of the ravens known intelligence. Clever trickster, problem solving, ect.
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I understand your points, but sadly, in the past, there have been people who did not understand or respect the boundaries of the animal's capabilities, and combined with the depictions of familiars in some genre films and books and things, and sadly we've had people having their familiars and companions speaking in full, articulated sentences that went beyond the intelligence and capability of the animal. "Mimicry" eventually turns into a full vocabulary.
So yes, we're determined about that. It doesn't matter what D&D or Wikipedia or Harry Potter or Edgar Allen Poe says/said about ravens or any other animal. Our lore is that they do not speak.
There are plenty more ways to portray a creature's intelligence. For full disclosure, my main character is a sorcerer with a pseudodragon familiar. The creature has never "spoken" but instead uses the sounds it can produce to portray things like basic emotions, inquisitiveness and the like. So there's plenty of creative ways to portray an animal's intelligence without having words come out of its mouth.