The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: lunchboxkilla on February 19, 2007, 09:20:22 PM
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I am angry at our own player base. There are new players coming in as the weeks go by, yet no one stops to help them, no one guides them. Just recently I was made fun of for helping some one get to his grave after watching other players rank on him from dying. My view of Layonara being one big family is starting to die here...Just remember we were all newbies at one point in our time. Just because some one is strange or acts odd doesn't make it right to go behind their backs and laugh at them. Help them for the love of kindness. if you had a child that was learning to walk would you laugh at him and call him names behind his back? And what is up with this elitist morality that has started to grow?
I help new players, no one asked me to, no one told me to do it.. I do it because at one point i was a newbie here and i got help.. I think its kind enough to pass that along...
This isn't a flame war or finger pointing this is me asking to be a little more kind to your fellow player, no matter how insane they are or how newb-ish they get.
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I agree that as a player we should help newbies within the world. But at the same token, players have to play IC. One cannot expect a Corathite or pytechteronite to help out people. Or it could be part of the characters personality that they do not help.
Having said that, the reverse is also true. If one has a Rolfereinite or a Toranite...they should heko. I have an Aeridinite and when the tenants warrant it, my character will heal and help willingly. When my character has asked, some don't want to know or they ignore me. *shrugs*
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i agree players should help if it's in their rp.
but i haven't seen this at all. I help newbs allt he time, same with the people i hang out with most of the time. If people are doing this then it obviously needs to stop. just cuz their newbs doesn't mean they suck at rp nor does it mean they should be looked down apon. I've met lots of people who ar enew who are good rpers. not right putting down newbs
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hawk will help if it suits his mood at the time, or if he charges for it. He's pretty random, and a bit insane. my CN dwarf has to have a good reason to help.
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""Just because some one is strange or acts odd"" sometimes people with disabilties play too , one never knows who behind they keys has what . besides who is to say what is strange or odd , its realy just different instead :)
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One of the best things about Layo is that its people helping other people to have fun. If that's not what your about I am sure there's lots of places that someone go to make fun of people and grief but lets not see it happen here. That would be tragic.
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No i mean helping by sending them tells...There is more than one way to help a person than showing them about west server or RPing it out.....
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lunchboxkilla - 2/20/2007 5:20 AM
I am angry at our own player base. There are new players coming in as the weeks go by, yet no one stops to help them, no one guides them. Just recently I was made fun of for helping some one get to his grave after watching other players rank on him from dying. My view of Layonara being one big family is starting to die here...Just remember we were all newbies at one point in our time. Just because some one is strange or acts odd doesn't make it right to go behind their backs and laugh at them. Help them for the love of kindness. if you had a child that was learning to walk would you laugh at him and call him names behind his back? And what is up with this elitist morality that has started to grow?
I help new players, no one asked me to, no one told me to do it.. I do it because at one point i was a newbie here and i got help.. I think its kind enough to pass that along...
This isn't a flame war or finger pointing this is me asking to be a little more kind to your fellow player, no matter how insane they are or how newb-ish they get.
All good points! I doubt many of us would have a good character if another good character didn't help us along the way.
Let's try helping out the new folks huh....and if your new and have question's, dont be afraid to send a Tell to someone. They may not be able to answer right away, being pounded to death by enemies and such....but they'll certainly give you all the help they can.....whether IC or via Tell.
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I remember a time when Beli was a low level and went to Dregar. HE died and all the high levels left without offering a portal back to Hlint. So he and a few others tried to get back to Hlint by walking. It went very badly we did not know the way. I met Celgar and asked if he would help us. He took us all the way back and paid for our ship fares as well. He then took us through the Krondor crypts because we had not done that quest yet. I think that moment is when I thought this server rocked.
Ever since them Beli helps the odd Newbie just to carry on the spirit of the server. I know who much it ment to me.
Masterjack
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As a fairly new person, I would like to second the 'send a tell' suggestion. That doesn't meananyone needs to drop what they're doing to give a tutoring session through tells. It would just mean, for those whose IG personality requires them to say or do thingsthat might seem unfriendly to anewbie, taking a moment to send aquick tell like this one:"This is role play, my character isfeeling cranky today." When we'revery new we have no way of knowing what kind of personafolks are playing, and some might mistakevery good RP on acharacter's part for general unfriendliness on the server.Personally, finding out the hard way that some folks are grumpy types is not a problem for me as a player, although I do hope that having my very gentle, non-confrontational character then go out of her way to avoid them doesn't offendanyone either. :)
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Alright I will say something here as well. When it comes to helping new players (brand new players of level 5 or less) it does not need to be in RP--and truth-be-told probably shouldn't on many occasions as a lot of things will happen in tells…but you are helping a new player and that is OKAY.
These are new players (some new to PW's and online play even and some new to RP in general), they need YOUR help to get used to things. If you can't come out and help new players when they arrive on the world then you should not be playing here, it is a community thing--we help new players--simple as that.
I have asked this many times and sadly there are few individuals that feel they are 'holier than thou'...those people need to get off their high horses and help out new players.
After a while the new players will learn about the world, nwn and online play, and they will quickly get in to the RP of things--but don't hide behind alignments and deities--you are being lazy if that is what you are doing. You just don't want to help players if you are doing that.
We help new players at this community; it is part of being a community. I am sick and tired of seeing and hearing about people hiding behind things in order to do (or not do) xyz.
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I'd like to add to this post that in addition, upon looking at the calendar I see that minerva has set up at least four separate "RP 101" Sessions to do exactly this: help out new players.
So please: Show up to these things , weather if its just to listen to what others have to say, to learn, or to help others to learn themselves.
Thank you.
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Though as a player I was wondering if it would be okay to take the initiative and start a small touring session, followed by a small OOC Question and Answer/RP Etiquette period (in party chat, In a secluded area in for example the Hlint Court house as not to bother anyone with the OOC questions, and not during a GM quest so that the questions and answers won't flood their chat box)? I wanted to make sure the O.K for this was granted before I started something that would be likely to go into OOC Afterwards if only just for the purpose of general Q&A.
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I will avoid naming anyone, but please, if you dont want to help then at least don't send tells to those actually helping stating, that they're helping a low level character to power level... a 1 level character can't power level.
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Just a suggestion, but it might also help to stop thinking of new players as "newbies" or "noobs" or "n00bs" or whatever. While descriptive and firmly entrenched in the online vernacular, it already implies some kind of lesser status or lower strata.
Better to think of them, new or not, as "players who need help". Even some people who have been here for a while could use a nudge now and then.
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Agreed Dorganath. Those terms can be derogatory and sadly a few people use them in that way--though a few do not mean anything by the term...and sadly a few of them are in this community.
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Besides... people can easily stay in RP helping new players, for an evil character this would be a great opportunity to get influence on unexperienced souls, and any kind of good character should help even the evil ones, because showing kindess would help moving the evil character toward goodness.
I have a CN character myself, who doesnt cares about anything, but still... If someone asks for help he will help them after a bit of complaining, cause he knows that if not someone help them, they will just wander off on their own and die, and even a neutral character would not wish that.
this goes for any level, no matter if you're high level or low level.
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The other side is there are new players that don't want or feel they don't need help. I logged on to Central and saw a level 4 PC running about. I sent him a few OOC tells, asking if he was ok, did he need a guide, did he have a way bave, and I got no reply. After seeing that same PC a few days later go through seven Player logs off/Player Logs on cycles I sent him a tell asking if there was a problem staying connected, anything I could do, no reply. Guess who I will not be sending a tell to in the furture?
I will help those who indicate they want or need it. If I see someone all ghosty standing by the bindstone, if I have nothing else going on, I'll ask if I can assist in some way. If they say no, (or as usaully happens they say they can handle it) I go on my way. By the same token, I met a nice fellow who had been on the server less than 3 days and we had a fine time walking through the sewers and collecting gobby ears.
I have no aversion to helping anyone, but if I have something that I was planning on doing, that's where I'm going.
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Leanthar - 2/20/2007 9:10 AM Agreed Dorganath. Those terms can be derogatory and sadly a few people use them in that way--though a few do not mean anything by the term...and sadly a few of them are in this community.
I should apologize with respect to a post I made several days ago where in jest I said "As far as I'm concerned, anyone a member for less than a year is still just a newbie (http://../images/emoticons/bleh.gif)"
I do agree that the term "newbie" can be derogatory whether it be meant that way or not, and it should be perhaps frowned upon be it joke or otherwise. I would hope that I was able to help the several players new to the world that have contacted me in game and while I don't wish this to sound as if it's a new thing for me to do (because it's not) I'll say here that any player that has a question, please don't hesitate to contact me either by PM or by a tell if you see me logged on.
Their are several players who absolutely despise tells because for them it ruins the immersive atmosphere and as such they tend to ignore some these tells. This is no disrespect or admonishment to those players by any means. I can understand that rationale completely. However in Lunchbox's post I get the impression that several players have sent him tells belittling these players. There are things that all new players can not be expected to know right from the start and help from an OOC perspective in getting started is essential. To this day I still ask several players about this or that.
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I really appreciate lunchboxkilla starting this thread, because I agree that the community temperament here is part of what is so great about this server. As a relatively new player (I only started on Layo late-December/early-January after never have played online before), I just wanted to add some compliments!
When I first started, I was helped by more experienced players THE VERY FIRST NIGHT I signed on, when I didn't even know enough to know I WANTED a lot of help and advice about some things. :) Especially Kell Ereptor, Arynne Liadon, and Praylor Falcus each independently took my new character by the hand and gave me advice, monetary and physical help, and direction about how to best approach things, find things, etc. In no case did anybody do quests for me or help me "power level," but they DID give me gentle warnings about things like the goblins outside Hlint (who are WAY meaner than the ones in the OC! :) ) or the rats in the sewers.
I walked around RL telling people, "Everybody there is SO NICE!" The three I mentioned are just the three who made the biggest impression on me (because they were first). I met so many friendly, helpful people/characters who really made me feel welcome and supported. It's what made me love Layo, and what I still love about it. In honor of all of them, I truly try to make it a point to help out "youngsters" (as we call them) whenever I can. Usually, Galan defers their pleas to pay him back with, "Just be kind to some other new adventurer you come across. That's all I ask."
This really is a great server. Thatnks, everybody, who cares enough to make it that way.
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Just to lighten the load while I work on V3 stuff. Link (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060823) .
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To Laldiien
Sounds like this PC was on west but tried to log on on central.. If a PC doesn't wan't help its not much one can do.. atleast you tried.
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Just a point on tells. Some players that have only played the Single player version of this game have no idea what a tell is or how to send them.
Same goes for whispers and party chat.
I was one of those players until a nice vetran took me under his wing and pointed out all these strange new ideas and gizmos to me.
Took me almost 2 years to learn to type and walk ... I still don't do it well
Please make allowances for you fellow players. Give them the benefit of the doubt. We are after all here to have fun.
One of my favorite Layo experiences was as a level 5 fighter having to organize a rescue party in Hlint because the server crashed and I was the only one who had rested topside. The rest were stuck below and no way of getting out short of the bindstone express. It was a great adventure. I was not a "newbie" but I was a new character in need of help.
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I'd like to think that except for an immediate (or near-immediate) need to log off, that I've never denied help to a new player or character -- as an aside, I generally don't know if a new character is from a new player or an existing player unless they exhibit metagaming knowledge.
That said, I generally don't volunteer help too often for two reasons:
1) I don't like using "tell" if I can avoid it; I see "tell" as strictly OOC, and using it breaks immersion. I'll use it when I have to, especially if I need to clarify the difference between me as a player vs. my character, but I don't like it.
2) Offering advice, etc., is easy enough, though doing so effectively in character can be tough sometimes, especially depending on the character; I do have concerns over issues of "dragging" low level characters along, or at least the appearance thereof. A 9th level character helping a 2nd level character out with the "Ratman" quest can make sense from an RP perspective, but in my mind it walks the line of breaking server rules about level disparities in parties.
On the second point especially, I know we've all (or at least most of us) gotten help from higher-level characters when we were starting out, but at what point does it turn into "dragging" vs. "helping" a new PC?
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@Jecklar, nice to hear that you had a good experience--very cool. :) Hopefully that sort of thing is repeated 100x times over (or a 1000 if we get that many more players).
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One more thing to consider: A lot of us are PnP gamers. I know I am, and I know the original concept for Layo came out of that and was populated initially by folks with experience in that gaming style. But a lot of us are also MMO players; people who come here for the atmosphere but whose idea of a GM is someone you petition via an impersonal interface for help and then wait for days/weeks for a response. People who have played WoW or EQ or (insert game here) and really have never been exposed to roleplay. I'm seeing a lot of that.
I think Ed and Minerva's idea to host RP and Layo specific Q&A is fantastic; this is just what we need. A bit of the OOC history of Layo would not hurt, to let folks know that this MMO (and it is, despite the Bioware limitations) comes from a whole different base idea than something like Worlds of Warcraft.
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I usually help out characters I notice are lower in level then my PCs (who are all lvl 8 so I cant tell who really is new). If I end up RPing with them I send a tell asking if they are new to layo, and usually help those who are (unless its just an old players new PC, in which case I help them if it falls into the RP). I don't, however, pull lvl 1-5 pcs off the street and start with, "You look new around here, need any help?" I usually wait to see if they do infact need help, and then jump right in.
Actually, o the note of "RP 101" Sessions, I'd be happy to host a "Ranger RP 101." There was supposed to be one this past weekend but it got cancelled, but I'd gladly host one, I just don't know how to go about arranging that.
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You can even help without direct intervention. One time before I noticed a new character logged in as a cleric on the server status but with nothing in the diety field. I did a tell to him about the cleric missing the diety then I contacted the DM who was online about the problem who was able to take care of it for the person.
During the exchange he had said he didn't want to make the DM's mad and I took the time to explain how nice the staff here is and they are in fact there to help us.
Anyway when I have the chance and notice a new player I'm always willing and do help out when possible because we are all here to make this a fun place to be at.
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I also agree with the whole "Where we're coming from thing". You get some people that are PnPers or even veterans, you get those from other PW (Prestige Worlds), and then you get those who'se only NWN experiance is with the single player. In addition to that you have as Honora said MMO-ers who come from places like EQ or Ragnarok and think this is going to be the same, but are generally willing to learn. On the other side of that spectrum however, you have a few (and Im an example of this as well as a few others I know) Who come soley from chat based rp and , while knowing how to write their emotions and dialog, don't know as much about the 'technical' side of things, like how to get their character to talk at a whisper , or how to customize clothing (here's to 2 months of wandering around in generic Wizard robes!).
The point of this blabbering is , as stated above in a variety of ways, is to be accepting and helpful no matter what the medium the player is coming from. So far I think this is being done verily well.
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Niles09 - 2/20/2007 6:02 AM
I will avoid naming anyone, but please, if you dont want to help then at least don't send tells to those actually helping stating, that they're helping a low level character to power level... a 1 level character can't power level.
Agreed. Not too long ago a GM berated Farros for taking a lvl 1 character about 5-minutes new to the game into the Hlint Sewers and made me abandon them there mid-hunt with all of 3hp. I understand the concept of trying to keep levels close to eachother in a party, but seriously, give the poor guy a break. Considering I was taking him through a series of CR 1/2 or 1/3 monsters that newcomers are expected to face starting out, I saw the admonishment that I was "powerleveling" the fellow in poor form. When people are just starting out, they look to us to serve the example and help train them to at least learn how to swing a sword without cutting themselves. The reason given to me by the GM is that the player was still under 4th lvl and therefore didn't NEED any help since they didn't incur any DTs from the death system... what a horrible OOC explaination. People need help because they're new and need help getting their bearings, and heroes help people in need, it's what heroes do. Now because of that instance, I don't see the guy around anymore and he probably quit, thinking I'm an elitist for telling him I'd help him then randomly making up an excuse that I had to go because some GM was spamming my tell channel.
So please, keep in mind that "powerleveling" is when you take somebody to a place that they really have no business being in for xp, like taking a trio of lvl 1-4s to Haven instead of places like the goblin caves or sielwood that they could handle with a little more training in the user-interface. "Powerlevelling" is not helping somebody gather beginning CNR to help them get a job, doing the Hlint quests to pass the time with and get to know them or helping them explore the surrounding areas of starting area Mistone.
Many times I help out people pretty young too, I think it was Sniverous who had a 6-7 year old son playing that I got to show off the server to with Earl. Another guy I know has mild epilepsy and sometimes misclicks when charging, and all sorts of mechanical problems abound on the user-end with our Windows-based CPUs. There's all sorts of things that could be happening that you don't know about while you're making fun of somebody. So don't be overly critical to people who are still getting their NWN skills in order and haven't learned the tactics of survival yet. It's not like yelling at them is going to do anything else than discourage them.
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Great Observation lonnarin. I am fairly new myself and would have totaly given up had not a few other players helped me out. While it's true that we can't get Dt's until fourth level how long does it take to get there? It took me maybe a day and half. But a day and a half still didn't make me feel on top of the world and ready to conquer the lands. I am only just now at level seven starting to make any sense at getting anything done.
Thank you to all those out there that have made Peanut and Clover feel welcome. An thanks to Oxmallard for being patient with Peanut...(and me). I'm still working on the stance! *grins*
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@lonnarin, I am sorry that happened. It shouldn't have. I have specifically put in the "no penalty" for death for the first few levels for a very specific reason...to let players learn the world and the system and make mistakes without being penalized.
New players (I said players--not new characters) should be able to get support from the community players for the first 3-4 levels without any issue of fear from the GM Team (or rapid level fears/powerleveling fears)... but that is new players to the community...not new characters of established players (big difference)...
"......So please, keep in mind that "powerleveling" is when you take somebody to a place that they really have no business being in for xp, like taking a trio of lvl 1-4s to Haven instead of places like the goblin caves or sielwood that they could handle with a little more training in the user-interface. "Powerlevelling" is not helping somebody gather beginning CNR to help them get a job, doing the Hlint quests to pass the time with and get to know them or helping them explore the surrounding areas of starting area Mistone. ....."
That is absolutely correct. The character was in the proper place for his level and since it was a low level character (new to the world) it would not be power leveling.... However, one has to be smart about it because in a round-a-bout way it can be seen that way in that 'the higher level will protect/heal the other character'....but that is something we do not want pay a whole lot of attention towhen somebody is helping new players (not new characters of established players--that is the difference).
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I have done this a number of times with new players. The way I handle it is to RP that I dont have my weapons with me but that I will still guide them and help in anyway that I can (healing, buffing, tactics, where to buy supplies and such). It can be fun and if you use tells you can really help a new player understand Layo a lot in a short time.
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When I started here, less than two months ago, a number of people gave me a great deal of help, both IC and OOC, and many of them still do. I'm a fairly experienced role-player, but completely new to on-line role-playing, and still have some difficulty with it. Usually, the people who have helped me told me to help others in order to repay them, which provides me a good IG reason to help people (when often my character would rather focus on her own training), and I'll often try to initiate a conversation with new characters, just so that they feel they know a few people. However, I have trouble with some new players, who clearly have not read about this world and this server, who seem to have a sense of entitlement that other players will help them, and thus don't role-play asking for help. Obviously, everyone has different experience with role-playing, so I usually help these people anyway, but in some ways I feel like I'm doing them a disservice by not forcing them to role-play asking/persuading a bit more before consenting to help them.
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I will help anyone(with in the rules) OOC, period. This is coming from a player who plays an evil drow. There are two sides to that coin of course, I can only help those who ask, or those I run into who look lost. Either way, you get back what you put in. A little time invested helping new players will only strengthen the player base of Layonara in the future, and it might even make you a friend IC and OOC.
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Frelinder - 2/20/2007 11:01 AM To Laldiien Sounds like this PC was on west but tried to log on on central.. If a PC doesn't wan't help its not much one can do.. atleast you tried.
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my previous post. I was on central he stayed logged in and did not acknowledge the tells after I had explained how they work.
On West, he would log in, stay on 3 minutes, log out, Log right back on, rinse & repeat.
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If its in Tells I agree whole heartedly. Also if I am playing one of characters that is snarky by nature and I realise that they are new or not used to the RP I always change my tone to be more accomodating.
lunchboxkilla - 2/20/2007 8:58 PM
No i mean helping by sending them tells...There is more than one way to help a person than showing them about west server or RPing it out.....
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well, here...
for all lv 7 and under, RP, and everything
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/calendar/event-view.asp?eventid=2739&year=2007&month=2
made a calender event... maybe we can make it into a meet n greet?
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I strongly feel that the original post here was a bad experience compared to the norm of the server. First I would like to give a compliment to Farros. More then any other character, I have seen him helping and guiding new character.
When I first started here about 10 months ago, I had many bad experience that I do not see so much now. I never played on any on line RP worlds before. I played RTS and PnP roll playing, but everything was very new to me. My first experience was having a more experienced player power level my character, and teach me to abuse the server rules with out getting caught. Like "Don't cheat in Hint, cause the DMs will see you." and stuff like that. Then, out of ignorance I would say something like, so and so "Is lost on Central." I did not know the name Dregar at that time. Then another player would send a tell to a DM and I would get an angry DM sending tells that felt hostile to me. These beginning experiances led me to think that the DMs were out to get me and kill my character.
So, yah, my opinion is that for the most part I am seeing new players given a lot of support, and in ways that are much more patient and mature then what I experienced.
Aeon Blues
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AeonBlues - 2/20/2007 5:15 PM
I strongly feel that the original post here was a bad experience compared to the norm of the server. First I would like to give a compliment to Farros. More then any other character, I have seen him helping and guiding new character.
When I first started here about 10 months ago, I had many bad experience that I do not see so much now. I never played on any on line RP worlds before. I played RTS and PnP roll playing, but everything was very new to me. My first experience was having a more experienced player power level my character, and teach me to abuse the server rules with out getting caught. Like "Don't cheat in Hint, cause the DMs will see you." and stuff like that. Then, out of ignorance I would say something like, so and so "Is lost on Central." I did not know the name Dregar at that time. Then another player would send a tell to a DM and I would get an angry DM sending tells that felt hostile to me. These beginning experiances led me to think that the DMs were out to get me and kill my character.
So, yah, my opinion is that for the most part I am seeing new players given a lot of support, and in ways that are much more patient and mature then what I experienced.
Aeon Blues
Right around my 10th day on the server, brand new and still wet behind the ears, a DM smitted me in Hlint for using the temple there =P. I loved it. Some would have thought it a bad experience, but I knew I was going to love this server after that...=-)