The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ioskeha on February 20, 2007, 05:38:49 PM
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In my year and a half of playing one I have not seen another class get as little respect as a Druid does. Almost half of my RP with her comes from people going out of their way to make her angry. And let me tell you that this gets old fast. It's really no fun to have to RP negative things all the time. When it comes to battle tactics Druids are alway left out of the planning, from what I've seen. When I think that any party would like to have us around. There is no other class that has as much verity as the Druid class does. We can serve as the main healer (minus res), scout, tank, and supporter. I know some of it comes from RP, but at times it seems like people break their alignment just to annoy us.
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Two things:
1) Druids should expect ill feelings and even fear that represents itself in negative reactions mostly because the class is based around a more secretive source of power. A druid's disdain for many things that are considered civilized not only makes them stand out, but engenders distrust, because, let's face it, people distrust and fear things they don't understand and things that live outside the accepted parts of society.
As a side note, many druids here, I believe, tend to be very outspoken. Tend to.
2) I'm not sure who you've been hanging around, but there are lots of characters around (especially the ranger types, of which there are quite a few) that prefer the company of a druid to that of other classes ~and~ know how to utilize a druid's special abilities. So don't lose heart. Not everyone that calls druids "tree huggers" dislike druids. I actually found it a bit comforting to see your character around the other day, after a long time of not seeing her.
Catch ya IG,
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Are people going out of their way or just being people? In my experience, druids are tree-hugging, animal-loving, nature worshippers. Go druids. The rest of us, aren't. I have never gone out of my to annoy a druid, but here's an example. I am on my way to the Sielwood when I run past a goblin. As I am smacking down the goblin, when a druid happens by Just after the goblin is dead, the raven starts in. I kill it. Not really muchof a choice, as I can't pacify and I didn't have sanctuary or invis up. As the raven has nothing of interest, I start walking away. The druid starts in on "Why am I killing nature", and "Why am I wasting natures bounty?" yadda yadda. My reply is this. I am perfectly happy to leave nature alone, if nature leaves me alone. If nature decides it doesn't like me, well, may the most sentient win.
That being said, I have seen some of the best RP out of druids when they are defending what they perceive to be the right thing. But my character really isn't concerned with their dogma, so it slides in one ear and right out the other. Now, at the same time, almost without exception, I have not seen a druid that wasn't a fanatic about it. That get's old, too.
If people are breaking their alignment just to annoy you, I submit they aren't role playing, they're just being asses.
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Laldiien - 2/20/2007 9:38 PM
Now, at the same time, almost without exception, I have not seen a druid that wasn't a fanatic about it. That get's old, too.
I think you'd like Kire (a Rayenoir character) If you met him. He makes an awesome non-fanatical druid.
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On the subject though: I think , personally , if animals could somehow be set to 'passive' we wouldn't have this problem as much. That way it would literally be a conscious choice to attack them (now I can understand something like a bear or even a boar attacking, but deer and such are docile ). That's just my 2 cents.
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LynnJuniper - 2/20/2007 9:57 PMOn the subject though: I think , personally , if animals could somehow be set to 'passive' we wouldn't have this problem as much. That way it would literally be a conscious choice to attack them (now I can understand something like a bear or even a boar attacking, but deer and such are docile ). That's just my 2 cents.
Very much agreed. There really is no way to avoid killing something that in fact would run away from you in any normal reality.
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That was a side effect of the perception script that allows for the mass calming that druids and rangers can do. Hopefully we'll right that with the V3 release.
On druids...
I have a druid character that I play very infrequently. He's...difficult to get along with...not because he's a druid, but because he has low Charisma (read: not very personable to those he does not respect) and he has the rather unpopular opinion that *gasp* Drow are an infestation of evil in the world. Now, I don't play him enough to form an opinion one way or the other as to whether he is treated differently because he's a druid.
However...
I will say that I have seen and heard reports of druids acting almost militantly in a way that borders on and at times crosses that line between proper RP and hiding behind the no PvP rule. This is not specific to druids, mind you, but there's that saying about one or two bad apples spoiling the entire basket.
Druids are a tricky lot, and a tricky character to play correctly, if you ask me. I think a lot of people don't understand them, both those who play them and those who play with them.
But they're also incredibly diverse, and so among the organization of Druids, there are going to be all kinds, and some will simply react negatively to them.
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In my experience as a druid you are going to upset people with your beliefs this is something Ive learned to deal with and have fun with over the past 2+ years. If you can't handle IC conflict a druid character is not for you, most adventurers just don't care about walking AROUND the bear they could plow though. On the flip side of the coin always walking around leads to over population of bears and hungry naked people.
Looking at a druids uses in a party rather than RPing your character as they would react to one is metagaming and poor RP. I applaud those that can have a good IC conflict if it goes along with their characters thoughts, alignment, beliefs personality etc... just make sure its clear that it is IC and it isn't brought OOC.
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LynnJuniper - 2/20/2007 9:57 PM Laldiien - 2/20/2007 9:38 PM Now, at the same time, almost without exception, I have not seen a druid that wasn't a fanatic about it. That get's old, too.
On the subject though: I think , personally , if animals could somehow be set to 'passive' we wouldn't have this problem as much. That way it would literally be a conscious choice to attack them (now I can understand something like a bear or even a boar attacking, but deer and such are docile ). That's just my 2 cents.
A thing about this, Lex has showed it to many people, beign an Aeridinite, not all animals keep attacking, some time if you just elt yourself get hit once and stand not attacking back, the boar or dear will go away. The white stag is the best example, as I have showed to many chars that if you stand facing him even if he attacks, he will stop and you will be able to aproach him and pet him if you wish.
SO yes some animals do attacks and cant be pacified by simply one hit or no hit at al, bear, lion and such. Boar and deer can. Unfortunatly the one near haven are to frail, and even if i dont want to I end up killing them by a counter attack :(
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In regards to the original question of this post - I would have to say I agree with Laldiien. Nothing against druids, but I can only take so much 'stop destroying nature' before I want to snap back 'when nature ceases in its attempts to destroy me'. As this has failed to be a suitable answer for some druids, it has engendered, if not dislike, at the very least little respect for druids.
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@Hellblazer - it's not really workable as a mage or a rogue to "let" a dire boar get a hit in. It might try for two. And then you die. To that end, Kell either avoids the dire boars, or engages in a pre-emptive strike. This is not "hating nature". This is "threat neutralization." If possible, I use the meat and hide of any beasts thus slaughtered... but if I'm in a hurry and it would encumber me... it's just not practical, and Kell, at least (not so much Therise), is intensely practical.
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Ioskeha - 2/20/2007 6:38 PM
In my year and a half of playing one I have not seen another class get as little respect as a Druid does. Almost half of my RP with her comes from people going out of their way to make her angry. And let me tell you that this gets old fast. It's really no fun to have to RP negative things all the time. When it comes to battle tactics Druids are alway left out of the planning, from what I've seen. When I think that any party would like to have us around. There is no other class that has as much verity as the Druid class does. We can serve as the main healer (minus res), scout, tank, and supporter. I know some of it comes from RP, but at times it seems like people break their alignment just to annoy us.
From watching many instances of this as an uninvolved character and a GM (don't think I've ever gotten a druid mad at one of my characters.. well, at least not for the reasons this post is about heh.) More often than not, from an uninvolved party's perspective, it looks more like the druid is going out of their way to harass the other characters about stuff, not the other way around.
Of course, thats not true for every case I witnessed, but most of the time that was my impression of the situation from watching.
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darkstorme - 2/21/2007 3:06 AM @Hellblazer - it's not really workable as a mage or a rogue to "let" a dire boar get a hit in. It might try for two. And then you die. To that end, Kell either avoids the dire boars, or engages in a pre-emptive strike. This is not "hating nature". This is "threat neutralization." If possible, I use the meat and hide of any beasts thus slaughtered... but if I'm in a hurry and it would encumber me... it's just not practical, and Kell, at least (not so much Therise), is intensely practical.
the max ive seen a boar hit was 15- 20 without armor and any buffs. I'm ot saying its not possible for it to go higher, but hit it once then back up still facing it, dont know why exatly but it works at least 7 out of 10 times did this. Funny part in this is that the boar dire boar) will keep moving beside you, coming to you but not attacking, and you will even be able to heal yourself and it and i didnt see it reatacked once it had stoped. had a few comical rp when the boar would follow in the valenske cave calling him my new little friend, with the others i was.
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Because they're tree-hugging, granola-eating, generally holier-than-thou, and a royal pain exceeded only by Paladins?
8)
On a more serious note... it's kind of part and parcel of the class description. By becoming a Druid, you put yourself at odds with much of society, especially the adventuring set, who tend to have certain... um... materialistic tendencies that are at odds with Druidic thinking. A Druid is, essentially, a "weirdo" to most people, far more so than any of the other classes, where the average person can at least find something to relate to. (Exception: Paladins, because most people can't picture having that large of a stick jammed up their posteriors.)
Of course, that's all RP (which is, of course, a good thing). From a mechanics standpoint, Druids can be very powerful, and should be used as such in a party, but it's kind of amusing to see how the RP perception of Druids actually trumps mechanics inside the gameworld.
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And then the problem with Fighters is, its hard to pull them off the attack, and with one hit those things can pretty much die already. I mean =Rhynn= can get lucky and kill one of those things with one melee hit.
And I will readily admit: My character Shri torments Druids. She's a Drow. Druids upset easy. She finds it amusing, when Druids work to For example: Stoneskin the deer and then warn the Haven Ogres that shes coming, to simply lob the things head off and drop it in her lap the next time she sees her.
That said, Shri and Kire get along fairly well when they're not trying to kill eachother.
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I know some druids might go overboard. But I've seen plenty of players from all classes who've gone overboard one way or another, from clerics to rogues, how come they don't get the same amount of hatred druids do? I've seen so much druid bashing in this place (and been at the wrong end of it) that I just can't bring myself to play much anymore, and when I do I tend to stick to people I know because invariably when I meet new people there's gonna be one who has to prove what a badass he is by provoking the druid.
I'm not saying there aren't druids who don't bait people. In particular I think it's wrong for higher level druids to start a fight with a new character who's on Johan's cloak quest or who accidently auto attacks a bird by the goblins. But on the other side the druid bashing is way too much, too. It gets very old, and repititious, and from what I've seen when you don't give them the reaction they want (because I'm not the type who will yell at someone for say killing an animal in self defense) there are a lot of people who will just find another way to try to get to you. In the end this is supposed to be fun, and having the same arguments over and over about killing animals is not fun. Being expected to fly into a rage (which I don't, but I am put in positions where it is expected and I've even been told in tells "you're supposed to be mad for this") is not fun. Which is a shame, because I do like playing a druid for a lot of reasons, if nothing more than it is fun to play with animals.
There was a point in time a few months ago when every time I would go to the game I would get tormented by a certain group of people, and I don't think I was singled out necessarily, and I'm not going into the details or naming other names but it got to where I just couldn't play any longer because it was just the same thing every time I logged on, that this small group of people were trying to prove how evil they were or whatever by trying to provoke the druid. Over and over and over again. It got to the point that I was just so frustrated I deleted the account in anger and said I wasn't going to come here any more.
I totally regret doing that now, because I do miss the friends I have here and wish I had Falon to play again, but that's how mad I got. I know raising a little conflict is part of role playing but when it's the same thing over and over it completely spoils any fun.
I don't know what the answer is in the end; i'm sure there are druids who could tone it down a little, but maybe some others could think twice about baiting them too. For my part it is my favorite class and I try NOT to be " tree-hugging, granola-eating, generally holier-than-thou, and a royal pain", but instead playing more of a patient and tolerant druid. Not that it helps all that much, but..
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Seem's this is an ongoing thing about the Druid's....however, there are, as above, some who play very well.
But as Ice pointed out....it's likely by being a Druid....you "have" to upset some people, or argue with them when they storm ahead killing anything in sight.
I'll use Sallaron as example....Ranger....but different type of one because of previous interaction's with a Druid and such. Before heading off on little adventure's, he'll always advise "not to kill the Wildlife"...and make sure it's clear to everyone. Some people ignore this....and get a ticking off on occassion, but most will respect it and fall back for the Druid/Ranger to tame them.
Like Milton said....these will be the people your character will work with and RP with best. But...of course, a good arguement is always fun too. :)
:)
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I know some druids might go overboard. But I've seen plenty of players from all classes who've gone overboard one way or another, from clerics to rogues, how come they don't get the same amount of hatred druids do? I've seen so much druid bashing in this place (and been at the wrong end of it) that I just can't bring myself to play much anymore, and when I do I tend to stick to people I know because invariably when I meet new people there's gonna be one who has to prove what a badass he is by provoking the druid. I'm not saying there aren't druids who don't bait people. In particular I think it's wrong for higher level druids to start a fight with a new character who's on Johan's cloak quest or who accidently auto attacks a bird by the goblins. But on the other side the druid bashing is way too much, too. It gets very old, and from what I've seen when you don't give them the reaction they want (because I'm not the type who will yell at someone for say killing an animal in self defense) there are a lot of people who will just find another way to try to get to you. In the end this is supposed to be fun, and having the same arguments over and over about killing animals is not fun. Being expected to fly into a rage (which I don't, but I am put in positions where it is expected and I've even been told in tells "you're supposed to be mad for this") is not fun. Which is a shame, because I do like playing a druid for a lot of reasons, if nothing more than it is fun to play with animals.
There was a point in time a few months ago when every time I would go to the game I would get tormented by a certain group of people. In fact after one particularly harsh trip where a couple of them were druid bashing all the way one of them starting this thread (which I can't see being permitted for other classes..)
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=31345&posts=4&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=31345&posts=4&start=1)
Note that most of this was said to me verbatim in game, and from there it continued for weeks, and I'm not going into the details or naming other names but it got to where I just couldn't play any longer because it was just the same thing every time I logged on, that this small group of people were trying to prove how evil they were or whatever by trying to provoke the druid. Eventually I deleted the account in anger and said I wasn't going to come here any more.I totally regret doing that now, because I do miss the friends I have here and wish I had Falon to play again, but that's how mad I got.I don't know what the answer is in the end; i'm sure there are druids who could tone it down a little, but maybe some others could think twice about baiting them too.
@miasma. It would appear that the post you have linked (twice) upset you deeply. If you want to play a druid, roll one up. If you don't, don't. The person who made the post no longer plays here, but if you are being "tormented" by anyone, get a GM. You now have 3 options: 1) roll another druid, take what may come. 2)roll another class, take what may come. 3)find another server that suits you. Option 3 isn't a leading favorite, but for the sake of clarity, there it is. This is a game. It's primary function is to divert your attention from reality in a pleasing way. if someone is being a jerk, and hiding behind RP to do it, consider the source.
That being said, druids are annoying to non-druids. (Tree-huggers) Paladins are annoying to non-paladins. (Lawful-good). It can be a source of both amusment and frustration, depending. (May edit for formatting when I get to the office)
Edit: Blackberries are not good for forum posts. Meh.
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Sallaron: "Like Milton said....these will be the people your character will work with and RP with best. But...of course, a good arguement is always fun too."
...like every time Honora sees a bear, boar, panther, malar, wolf, deer...she reaches for her knife and says "SKINS!!"? :)
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http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34933&posts=3#M225708 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=34933&posts=3#M225708)
60 bear skins and the poster is chided. A trapper returning from years in the vast forests would have this many (thinking early American frontier here). If the poster had killed a bear and not collected the skin, then bad! Collect the skin and still bad!
Perhaps the druids of the land can communicate with the city PCs in a more constructive way. "The deer that are aggressive towards you are likely sickly. We would be pleased if you would assist us in putting them out of their misery. Please clean up the kill so as not to attract unwanted predators." We really don't have much choice when they attack, do we? ICly i'm not "waiting it out" and OOCly I'm not either.
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Pen N Popper - 2/21/2007 9:44 AM http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34933&posts=3#M225708 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=34933&posts=3#M225708)
60 bear skins and the poster is chided. A trapper returning from years in the vast forests would have this many (thinking early American frontier here). If the poster had killed a bear and not collected the skin, then bad! Collect the skin and still bad!
Perhaps the druids of the land can communicate with the city PCs in a more constructive way. "The deer that are aggressive towards you are likely sickly. We would be pleased if you would assist us in putting them out of their misery. Please clean up the kill so as not to attract unwanted predators." We really don't have much choice when they attack, do we? ICly i'm not "waiting it out" and OOCly I'm not either.
I actually agree with this fully. Pc's that wouldn't kill animals and such often have no choice due to the AI of NwN and generally find a good reason that its happened as to not chide them ICly. Often times the auto attack causes me to turn and kill an animal myself when I forget that my taming staff counts as a weapon and negates the aura of taming. The times I get angry are when I have tamed an animal and someone decides its necessary to force attack it anyhow or does not give me the time to tame it before turning to kill it. I have found of the more fanatical druids that they often forget to look down at their bodies and realize what they are wearing... leather most likely. As for the man that killed 60 bears and skinned them... he probably ate the meat and saved the skin for some worthy later use. Over population due to underhunting is a sad thing too. Bears would eat all the pigs then wind up with no food source and starve to death. People are part of the great cycle too... sometimes they eat.. sometimes they are eaten though the latter less often. Theres a lot of ways of interpretting the balance but anyway you look at it good, evil, law, chaos, life and death are all necessary to not tip the scales in one direction or the other. The fanatical preservationist is just as much danger as the wanton slayer of everything.
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I had been wanting to contribute to this thread and hadn't quite worked out how to get across what I wanted to say until.....
IceDragonDuvessa - 2/21/2007 3:15 PM People are part of the great cycle too... sometimes they eat.. sometimes they are eaten though the latter less often. Theres a lot of ways of interpretting the balance but anyway you look at it good, evil, law, chaos, life and death are all necessary to not tip the scales in one direction or the other. The fanatical preservationist is just as much danger as the wanton slayer of everything.
I have met quite a few druids who seem to think that nature should be preserved over everything else and seemed to refused to accept that people are part of the cycle too and I'm sorry....But I am not going to respect a Druid who thinks like that.
I have also, in my time on Layo heard Rangers who suggested going and killing Griffon's for fun, Druids joking about keeping humans as 'pets' and various other things.
Respect is a two way street and while NO ONE should be griefed, especially through people breaking character to annoy another character....Respect needs to be earned by druids as much as any other character.
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There is a faction within the world of Layonara that believe that nature should be put above anything else. That cities should be razed and hunters slain before they slay an animal.
But if druids that belong to the "regular" druid network threaten to kill others for hunting badgers for a skin that will enable the pelt trader in the crafthouse to heal his wife they are probably in the wrong place.
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Two writers are in discussion about a special town for druids...it may not end up in game, but as an RP location, it will be another place where druids and rangers make the rules :).
Just a heads-up teaser for the future!
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Hey..Falon was cool. I was wondering where she went. :-)
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Good tip to druids (I use it with Favner)
1) As LordCove said - try with diplomacy to agree on not killing animals before moving out..
2) If you join a party that wants to get ..silver.. then tell those materialistic bastards they can keep all the silver. Only if they hurt an animal (or something) you will take part in the amount - which you afterwards will throw in the trashcan in front of them ;)
3) Number 2 is something all crafters will hate, but they have been warned. (And I do it, may you like it or not and come up with all your arguments for or against. Favner will still do it) :)
4) Druids gets respect. As a druid-player is it up to you to find a way to change/bend the minds of the normal people to have them think before they act... Like a priest converting someone.... force and anger does not work here
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Mind you not all druids are fanatically committed to preserving the lives of animals at all times. Narnulubat my half orc druid has upset many other druids and rangers, in that he takes obvious pleasure in hunting and killing. He as a half orc is drawn more to the 'red in tooth and claw' philosophy of nature and to its seemly chaotic face. Mind you he is fully committed to preserving the balance, for although he represents one side of nature he fully supports it's opposite too.
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yes im the only fanatically burning of hunters one
and i have tamed down rather much
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@miasma. It would appear that the post you have linked (twice) upset you deeply. If you want to play a druid, roll one up. If you don't, don't. The person who made the post no longer plays here, but if you are being "tormented" by anyone, get a GM. You now have 3 options: 1) roll another druid, take what may come. 2)roll another class, take what may come. 3)find another server that suits you. Option 3 isn't a leading favorite, but for the sake of clarity, there it is. This is a game. It's primary function is to divert your attention from reality in a pleasing way. if someone is being a jerk, and hiding behind RP to do it, consider the source.
That being said, druids are annoying to non-druids. (Tree-huggers) Paladins are annoying to non-paladins. (Lawful-good). It can be a source of both amusment and frustration, depending. (May edit for formatting when I get to the office)
Uh, I did not post it twice, I edited it because I did not want to name that person specifically; he was certainly a problem but not the only one at the time. And the post itself did not bother me, but the fact that the contents were were typical of what was being said to me on a near-daily basis over and over (and worse). And I did try to get some GM help but there is a limit to how much I want to go crying to the teacher when there's a bully on the playground. But I don't want this to be about me getting harassed and what to do in that situation, I just use my story as an example that druids are a favorite target by some people who may not even have a good reason why (as if all the hatred that was supposed to go to drows is reserved for druids instead.)
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Ioskeha - 2/20/2007 5:38 PM
In my year and a half of playing one I have not seen another class get as little respect as a Druid does. Almost half of my RP with her comes from people going out of their way to make her angry. And let me tell you that this gets old fast. It's really no fun to have to RP negative things all the time. When it comes to battle tactics Druids are alway left out of the planning, from what I've seen. When I think that any party would like to have us around. There is no other class that has as much verity as the Druid class does. We can serve as the main healer (minus res), scout, tank, and supporter. I know some of it comes from RP, but at times it seems like people break their alignment just to annoy us.
Ack first off sorry you feel this way. Secondly, I am super mean IC, with my PC, to all things fey and elven. I hope you do not play the druid I ran into the other day with Daralith. I feel bad if I sparked this response in anyway. On a side note I just made a druid, so come hang with him! =-)
Outside of that, I can not imagine a single IC reason any elf would treat a druid with disrespect. I suggest traveling in those kind of circles. Avoid dwarfs and "evil" races that care little of the forest.
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Laldiien - 2/20/2007 6:38 PM Are people going out of their way or just being people? In my experience, druids are tree-hugging, animal-loving, nature worshippers. Go druids. The rest of us, aren't. I have never gone out of my to annoy a druid, but here's an example. I am on my way to the Sielwood when I run past a goblin. As I am smacking down the goblin, when a druid happens by Just after the goblin is dead, the raven starts in. I kill it. Not really much of a choice, as I can't pacify and I didn't have sanctuary or invis up. As the raven has nothing of interest, I start walking away. The druid starts in on "Why am I killing nature", and "Why am I wasting natures bounty?" yadda yadda. My reply is this. I am perfectly happy to leave nature alone, if nature leaves me alone. If nature decides it doesn't like me, well, may the most sentient win.
That being said, I have seen some of the best RP out of druids when they are defending what they perceive to be the right thing. But my character really isn't concerned with their dogma, so it slides in one ear and right out the other. Now, at the same time, almost without exception, I have not seen a druid that wasn't a fanatic about it. That get's old, too.
If people are breaking their alignment just to annoy you, I submit they aren't role playing, they're just being asses.
This is very true, and is why I suggest to druids out there to take more of a "respect" for nature attitude. I suggest RPing in a fashion where you do not condem someone for killing the falcon, but insist they do not waste what they have killed. For instance if someone kills a deer, and you witness it, make sure they take the hides and meat. RP that the forest knows you must take from it, but do so only in need. When you are out hunting with a group, suggest going around the animals, because you do not need their hides and meat. If you have to kill them (this is usually an AI reason), then RP being sadden by it.
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Harlas Ravelkione - 2/21/2007 8:05 AM
There is a faction within the world of Layonara that believe that nature should be put above anything else. That cities should be razed and hunters slain before they slay an animal.
But if druids that belong to the "regular" druid network threaten to kill others for hunting badgers for a skin that will enable the pelt trader in the crafthouse to heal his wife they are probably in the wrong place.
There is a reason a Druid is suppose to be TN and believe in balance. There is nothing wrong with taking from the land, as long as you are taking only what you need, and giving back what you can. Killing a deer for the hide and meat is acceptable. It is the slaughtering of animals for only their hides that would be frowned upon, or should be frowned upon.
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My Rofirein paladin has an interest in druids, based upon his character background. As a young adventurer new to Mistone, there were two druids that he felt a connection with. It was their influence that keeps me to this day trying to avoid the Griffons outside Fort Hope and not disturbing ravens and ants for corn.
The first, Luna Moonchaser, was this knowledgeable and wise woman who was always polite and kind to everyone. To see her step out of the trees was always pleasant, and seemed to demand respect. He still thinks of her when the topic of druids and their nature arise.
The second, the nameless druid, seemed to be searching within herself, and I witnessed and participated in some very good RP discussions. So much that on at least three occasions my paladin and she parted ways with a promise to get together another time and fully discuss our views.
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I wonder what the high druid of the under dark is up to right now....
Good thread here!
AeonBlues
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Drizzlin - 2/21/2007 2:13 PM
Harlas Ravelkione - 2/21/2007 8:05 AM
There is a faction within the world of Layonara that believe that nature should be put above anything else. That cities should be razed and hunters slain before they slay an animal.
But if druids that belong to the "regular" druid network threaten to kill others for hunting badgers for a skin that will enable the pelt trader in the crafthouse to heal his wife they are probably in the wrong place.
There is a reason a Druid is suppose to be TN and believe in balance. There is nothing wrong with taking from the land, as long as you are taking only what you need, and giving back what you can. Killing a deer for the hide and meat is acceptable. It is the slaughtering of animals for only their hides that would be frowned upon, or should be frowned upon.
TN druids is old school D&D. Now day and in Layonara, a druid has to have one axis on N, but can be LN, CN, NG or NE. Though, what you are saying about balance is defiantly true.
I think the concept of bio diversity is very hard to grasp by people who have not spent a lot of time in nature. Thus the druids on Layo are most commonly associated with this dogma of do not kill animals ever. Truth is, nature is not like that at all. All life is struggling, competing and killing other forms of life. Even trees will starve other trees to death in their competition for light. Though, I have only seen this 20 years after a clear cut. That being said, a lot of animals will fight over mates and territory. Some times to the death. If they don't hunt, then they are hunted by something, and many are both predators and prey. Birds in particular are very fascinating like that. The important thing about bio diversity, is that while individual lives come and go, all forms of life are vital to the existence of all other forms. If you take away the spiders, then the trees will be infested with zillions of insects. If you take away the trees, then the undergrowth plants die, because they get too much sun light, and not enough water. Take away the under growth, and the deer herds die. Take way the deer and the lions die. The raccoons run off and some trash can to dig food out of, but they are smart like that.
AeonBlues
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Layo druids remind me of those overly earnest people you usually find in a yoga class. Everything is serious, everything is important with a capital I. Earnestness of that degree inspires ribbing and the kind of joshing that could easily be taken for lack of respect -- especially by a person who is very very earnest. Like AeonBlues suggested, being a druid doesn't mean that you value animal life over human life. Neutrality means you accept both destruction and construction, life and death. I prefer to play druids as stewards instead of protectors, it gives them more freedom to be grubby, crotchety antisocial hermits. *wanders off to drag out his druid* Redhawk
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I think preservation of nature is like a moderate present day environmentalism movement. Minimize your footprint. In Layo if you are truly Eco conscious you do not need to cut down every tree for your CNR... Take like three branches from every tree in the grove. Use all of your animal kills, like has been said through out this post. It is a tough line to RP though, being a natural protector and not always being able to be accepted for what is essentially a benevolent and rewarding practice. If bartering ideals does not work, perhaps the druids can speak the city language of money and ask skinners to bring them the meats and receive compensation for it. Just an idea... Having never played a druid and having never RP'd near one for a long time (except Brisbane, and Gel could never get past her vivacity to appreciate her druidness), it is hard to advocate a fix for this situation. Except perhaps don't get on the case of a dwarf because most are lost causes.
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miasma_hemlock - 2/21/2007 4:46 PM
Uh, I did not post it twice, I edited it because I did not want to name that person specifically; he was certainly a problem but not the only one at the time. And the post itself did not bother me, but the fact that the contents were were typical of what was being said to me on a near-daily basis over and over (and worse). And I did try to get some GM help but there is a limit to how much I want to go crying to the teacher when there's a bully on the playground. But I don't want this to be about me getting harassed and what to do in that situation, I just use my story as an example that druids are a favorite target by some people who may not even have a good reason why (as if all the hatred that was supposed to go to drows is reserved for druids instead.)
Absolutely correct, I apologize. I get the postson my Blackberry just after they are posted. If a post is edited, I am *not* notified. So when I replied saying you had posted twice, I was mistaken.
I will however stand behind the sentiment that if someone if griefing you, grab someone. It may feel like 'tattling', but the alternative is deleting your toon in a fit of pique and later regretting it.
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Lots of great post to read, re-read, and think about. Someone asked if this come from something that happened in-game not too long ago. Nope, it didn't. The has been on my mind for quite awhile now. I wasn't asking to complain or anything. Just wanted to know why Druids get so little respect. As I said; I have been playing on for awhile here, and I've gotten use to the to it.
The only thing I said that could be taken as a complant is the planning of battle tactics.
Looking at a druids uses in a party rather than RPing your character as they would react to one is metagaming and poor RP.
I've lost cout of how many times I have been in a party, and the leader comes up with a plan of action. Then watch the leader address everyone in the party but me. It makes both me and my PC feel left out and not really wanted in what ever party I've RPed my way into. Maybe it's because people and their PCs really don't know what Druids can do? I don't know. It's something I would like to change though.
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The times I get angry are when I have tamed an animal and someone decides its necessary to force attack it anyhow or does not give me the time to tame it before turning to kill it.
I don't think this happens. I've killed stuff thats been tamed, but it's because the thing doesn't become non-hostile for a couple seconds and unless you're constantly holding tab you have no way of knowing since it doesn't cancel attack actions when they become friendly.
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Talan Va'lash - 2/21/2007 11:36 PM
The times I get angry are when I have tamed an animal and someone decides its necessary to force attack it anyhow or does not give me the time to tame it before turning to kill it.
I don't think this happens. I've killed stuff thats been tamed, but it's because the thing doesn't become non-hostile for a couple seconds and unless you're constantly holding tab you have no way of knowing since it doesn't cancel attack actions when they become friendly.
Once upon a time, a little Drow did this...=P
The ranger was pretty ticked too... The ranger said something along the lines of, "Why did you do that? I had it under control; the animals were going to stop attacking you!” Then the Drow said something like, "First off, don't ever speak to me again with that sheep kissing mouth of yours, because I never asked to you be here in the first place. As far as why I did that, to teach it a permanent lesson for attacking me in the first place. Lastly, the presumption that a Darthir has anything "under control" is laughable at best."
That Drow and Ranger never "hung" out again. The end...
Now of course that is an extreme case, but it still happened hehe.
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Talan Va'lash - 2/22/2007 2:36 AM
The times I get angry are when I have tamed an animal and someone decides its necessary to force attack it anyhow or does not give me the time to tame it before turning to kill it.
I don't think this happens. I've killed stuff thats been tamed, but it's because the thing doesn't become non-hostile for a couple seconds and unless you're constantly holding tab you have no way of knowing since it doesn't cancel attack actions when they become friendly.
Actually Talan having played a Druid for over 2 years I have seen this happen a disturbingly large amount of times. I know the difference between an accident in confusion of combat and a purposeful attack, though I can see your not playing a character that tames things how you might be confused.
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What Ice stated is very true. I have seen it with my own eyes as well...and I have seen it when I was playing my characters.
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It depends on the circumstances. If a boar runs up and stabs you with a tusk and the druid stops that attack, standing there patting the pig on the snout saying "don't you dare hurt my cute little piggy!" then yes... chop its bloody head off and nail its innards to the forrest wall. The pig still stabbed you, so the animosity remains... and consequently nature's food chain recognizes that when an herbivore assaults an omnivore it has a 50% chance of being eaten and a 49% chance of just being gutted. (The other 1% are occasions where a rampaging deer tramples a wayward child to death who strayed too far from town) This is actually a form of animal empathy... it lets the animal learn from its mistake during the last fleeting moments of its short brutal life wishing that it never had bothered to try to become a carnivore of human flesh. Perhaps in the next life it will come back as a mink, bunny, halfling or housecat, something cuter and less apt to fits of rage. It's not like the druid would be forgiving if a human walked up to him and stabbed him in the guts, and then his buddy screamed out, "it's ok, he's just grumpy in the mornin!" and walked off with the errant knifer. Revenge is a very compelling and natural emotion... kick a bear in the nose in real life and you'll see what I mean.
Now if a druid is walking around with a tame animal that hasn't attacked you yet, then there's no real reason to kill it, and in fact that'd just be cruel and uncalled for. If the druid shouts out, "let me deal with this bear so that it wont attack us" a good 100 feet away from the encounter, then for Katia's sake just let them go and tame the critter. I've seen both instances like these rampantly smashed by overcaffienated sociopaths who scream and charge even critters very obviously under control, sadly. Some rare cases it is in character, like when a raging orc-blooded barbarian just wants to smash everything it sees... but most cases I've seen are rangers using things for target practice and low-lvl players farming them for xp.
This isn't very cut and dry though, since there is a hardcoded lapse in perception from when a player sees a red hostile animal and clicks on it to attack, to the point when a druid makes his empathy chack and turns the beast calmly blue. Many times the "force attack" is really just the fighter following through on his own NWN engine inertia... since turning something blue mid-attack just doesn't prevent a previous targetted attack from following through. Druids should not be angry at people who kill animals that they were already fighting at the time when the druid tames them... Though yes, I have seen many instances where the fighters were attacking a monster and the druid tamed an animal which helped them fight the thing... the monster dies, there's a short pause, then the fighter just turns back around and starts wailing on the poor animal that was just helping him. Horrible RP, and no wonder many druids are upset with this practice... even most CE characters wouldn't be that psychotically random.
Tamed wild animals from the wilderness on the other hand should expect to be shot down when trying to enter town. Any druid who encourages wild animals to visit the city without a leash or storms through town in the form of a bear should be expelled from the order and made to reroll their character with negative wisdom modifiers. Those who go crazy and attack everybody doing the Johan quest with threats and lured beasts should be publicly executed by their own druid circles or exiled to Belinara in order to keep the peace. Druids who think that the whole world should be vegetarian and scold every man with a cheeseburger should watch cute little baby bunny rabbits mauled to death by hungry revenous wolverines in the dead of night amidst their horrid shrill screaming. Those who yell at tailors and lumberjacks should walk around naked and be limited to throwing rocks as weapons... the list goes on.
Generally the amount of respect a druid gets is equally perportionate to how much of a realist they are... extremists and fanatic stereotypes are the ones that the average character can't stand. This is true also for Paladins, where you'll find that the ones who drink and consort with womenfolk are more easily to identify with than the chaste ones who think that every single aspect of life that's enjoyable is a cardinal sin. The same goes for a druid like Yarniblut who eats meat and doesn't pity a doe crazy enough to attack a half-giant with a 6-foot long sword. This is not to say that no amount of predjudice exists, there will always be that. Just how you present yourself and interact with others in a case by case manner is the ultimate decider in the relationship's long run. Get past the initial jabs at the class as a whole and build a relationship from there with the individual. If you serve to be a good exception, then you totally smash their stereotype.
Now as Dorganoth said, just one bad egg can spoil the bunch, and right now many memories are fresh with bounties, burning dwarves, threats and lightning storms in response to pelt skinning. It's up to each individual druid to come forth and explain to their friends in game how they are different, where they personally stand on certain issues, and to become active in their druidic circles so that they can self-police the type of militant behavior that serves only to stir up anger at the class as a whole. Sure there will be jerks out there who will go out of their way to tease you about your oaths, but this is not much different than the kinds of interaction that Paladins of Toran and Rofierien get from just about every rogue in game. When it spills into griefing is when you send a tell to that person "stop this, it isn't fun for me and its getting old" and they quirp back with something like "You're a druid/paladin/orc PC... GET OVER IT!" and keep harrassing you. Those instances you should screen shot immediately and send in a report to the Grievances Forum.
On the tactics side of things, anybody who doesn't assign the druid a role in the party is a poor leader... druids have decent hp, tons of healing, a decent list of offensive spells and a whole slew of nifty buffs. On quests especially, some of their powers can be godsends... Imagine if you had to sneak into Prantz past Broegar's guards... why not just send the druid in cat form? It's not like the dwarf patrol's going to drop everything they're doing and shoult "Halt cat! To arms! To Arms! Holy hells, there's a KITTY-CAT on tha loose!!!" More likely than not, the stubby little brigand will either ignore it or might even be bored enough to feed and pet the little furball. Did something fall off the ship and sink to the ocean's deep dark, cold floor? Have the druid either tame a dolphin or dive in themselves in water elemental form; anything down there that would normally be hostile would probably just see water. All sorts of witnesses to events abound in the animal kingdom; as well as messengers, diversions and onslaughts. A swarm of rats storming the wharf at the right time could divert a large portion of guards from their regula patrols and not even seem cause for alarm. The druid's usefulness is limited only by the expanse of their imaginations.