The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on March 02, 2007, 11:02:33 AM
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I'd like to suggest that we, the community, come to an agreement on the attitude towards PCs of various races in the two towns Hempstead and Vehl. I do this so that:
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- Players of the races know what to expect.
- Players know that they have permission to react appropriately to these races.
- Players do not try to stick up for these races when others are trying to RP appropriately.
Vote for all you feel appropriate. I do make the assumption that Vehl is a rough and tumble type of place (wild west sort of town).
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I haven't found a crafting hall in Vehl, of course I didn't spend a ton of time there. Is there even a crafting hall yet? If there isn't, then hempsted is still the place to be and should be 100% open to all.
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if we have the place put in as the start
any of the less tolerated or hated races who may come around should be shunned from the pretty world
but those who can disguise and pass as such should be able to have the chance to try
as such im sure both places will have crafting setups
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Posted by Fatherchaos in the other obsolete thread
[INDENT] Pen, while I see the interest in doing this research, I thought this information is already outlined under the races thread? E.g. Tieflings are distrusted by all, half-giants are generally welcome in both societies, etc. I personally feel that this should be an entirely IC situation, unless certain races are banned from some cities (e.g. elves from bloody gate, just an example). I will say that I'm a bit taken aback by this comment: Players do not try to stick up for these races when others are trying to RP appropriately. I'm not certain if you are distinguising the players behind the character going OOC to say lay off, or the Character in front of the player defending/attacking the person in question. Please keep in mind that Players will IC defend those they have come to trust/respect/etc. I point this out because this comment almost feels as some sort of RP wall to erect during a pickfork and torch session. To paraphrase an earlier post, we need to remember that there is a player behind the character who wants to have fun. Hopefully we can keep the 'hatred' to a civil rp manner. In some cases I've even gone so far as to politely inform players ahead of time, to clear the air, that my own character is particularly rude and xenophobic, just so they know/agree ahead of time that the interaction is all in good fun. This has always met with great results.
[/INDENT] My point with #3 is that I have seen very often where a PC reacts negatively and completely IC to a monstrous race in Hlint. Before long, though, a bunch of other PCs come to the aid of the monster. Sometimes it's good to just have some room to RP without all the goody-goodies ganging up.
My opinion.
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I would suggest to wait a small bit until the new descriptions of Port Hempstead and Fort Vehl have been finalized.
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Making policy on how a PC aught to react to a certian kind of character or creature character is a bit on the 'rulesy' side of things. Some PCs have reason to trust certain 'monstrous' races even over so called 'goodie' races. Putting a limit on how one should RP is rather unfair, in my humble opinion.
~row
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I understand that race relations are outlined in numerous places. However, when someone makes a new PC of type X and then walks into a town that shuns them that smacks of OOC and disregard for all the literature provided.
I am hoping that as a community we can all come to an OOC agreement of what is and is not appropriate behavior. In other words, if X are not trusted in a town then there should be no reason why X should openly be prancing about. Even a long-time PC would be distrusted by the general populace and all new PCs. Yes, they may choose to wear clothing that their friends would recognize but still be hooded.
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I agree with Rowana, this is rp and if i have to go OOC to a fourm or printed list to see how my character "MUST" react to a pink wemic with a pony tail , then i am not rp'ing i am following the masses. I am here for the diversity of people and play , the only limits i accept are those of the staffs server rules and while i try to follow them , i have at times unwittingly broke them, but when confronted i try to adjust my play to them, to have others pc's start to add rules for play is not something i will do, it's the rebel in me sorry
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Just an idea here, but could town-guard type NPC's be scripted to watch for certain races/sub-races and give a one-liner when they see them that makes them feel welcome or un-welcome as the case may be? That might also help people to know what towns the general populace will welcome them in and what towns won't.
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I think people are missing the point that our characters, the PCs, are a very small percentage of the people in any given town. Even if every PC sitting in, say, Hempstead at a given time is comfortable with a particular Drow PC there, the vast majority of the populous is still going to react negatively toward that Drow, and might even be unpleasant toward the "Drow lovers."
Also, I don't believe Pen N Popper is trying to get a strangle hold on anyone's RP. I think he's just trying to point out that characters of some races should generally be shunned and treated poorly by characters of other races. That goes for Drow and Half Orcs and even Aasimar. I think he's just trying to get some sort of consensus amoung the community about how we, in general, should play out our reactions between certain races.
Look, if the point of two starting areas wasn't to cause some character-to-character strife and tension, why are there two starting areas? We could have just kept one starting area and had everyone continue to be buddies. There are two starting areas so we don't all 'grow up' together, and so that characters have a place to go congregate and 'belong' when they are driven out of other towns where they aren't welcome. This is no longer the war against Bloodstone, and our characters don't all have to come together as one. There are now and will be more reasons for tensions and divisions between characters, and there is no longer any external reason for most characters to harbor characters of races their race abhors. Things are going to be ugly, and if you want your character to try to be friendly with everyone, it's time to sumbit a TN Human and abandon your Drow, Half Giants, Aasimar, and Paladins.
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The thing is, there is no "right" way to RP one's reaction to monster races. There are, however, "norms" which will likely be followed by most of the population.
By the same token, there is no "right" way to RP playing a monster race, but again, there are norms. These norms are spelled out pretty well in the racial profile of the various subraces.
For the most part, these norms should be followed, but that's not going to cover all cases.
In the previous campaign, there was the concept of all PCs being "Dragoncalled"...which was a fancy way of saying some aged and wise being saw something exceptional in these individuals, monster races as well as your garden-variety elves, humans, etc. This basically meant that yeah...they were special somehow, not typical of their race or perhaps possessing some quality that would aid in the fight against Bloodstone.
That idea should no longer exist.
There may or may not be a common theme any longer. No common cause, no common fight to overcome a terrible enemy. Now, in the Dark Ages, there is only one real, common goal...
Survival.
And in that survival, people tend to band together with those who are like them. Socially speaking, there should be a lot more stratification of races, classes, etc. People will band together into small groups and fight fiercely to protect what little they have against all potential threats. Bandits and robbers would become more common along the roads as well as the darker parts of the cities and towns.
Now let's look at the starting towns for just a moment...
I would say that monster races wouldn't really be "trusted" in either place. Sure, perhaps there are some exceptions based on words of deeds, long-term recognition of some individual or the other, but in general, if 3 drow walked into town openly, the general population should probably think it was some kind of attack.
Port Hempstead has been attacked more than once over its history by Drow, and that city surely has a long memory.
Fort Vehl is a seedy place, filled with all sorts of corruption, greed and the cast-offs of society. Would a drow be trusted there? heck no! NOBODY should be trusted there. Three well-armed humans walking into town would probably raise some eyebrows, cause shutters to be closed, etc. The town guard would watch them very closely, especially if they were unknown.
Just like they would in Port Hempstead.
Remember the times in which the people of Layonara are living. This is not the era of the Draoncalled. This is not 21st century Earth with its norms of social tolerance. This is a bad, bad time for Layonara. That, above all else, should heavily influence one individual's reaction to another.
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Toranite paladin code #6 All life is sacred. Raping, pillaging, and other crimesof war are strictly forbidden to those in Torans service. Killing should be an act of last resort. Honor your enemies, reguardless of thier race, even in defeat.
As this disscussion is mearly the beginings of PVP open season on drow and other non accepted races, and vicea versa, is the above code to be disreguarded ?
Will players which value life and are not so narrowminded as to judge one by race or skin color, have a means to have such vile examples of thier own races put in jail or executed for open unwarrented murder of another. Tis a can of worms we have not solved in real life and as such to open this to all to rp some repressed real life emotions with no repercussions is subjecting the community to activities we do should consider if we are truly a family server.
Sad a middle aged white guy from Alabama has to be the one to bring this up, but having seen it in real life, i can sense the motives and tone of speech however thinly vieled to be more that just a rp question.
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I think that may be taking it a little bit far, Praylor. The issue here is most certainly not racism in our world, where we're all more or less the same, with minor cultural differences that loosely correlate to different skin tones and nationalities...
The issue here is that there are different species with different cultural norms living in the same world, many of whom have had bitter hatred brewed between them for centuries. Our modern minds can't really grasp the idea of a millenia-old blood feud between Elves and Drow... The longest of our conflicts has lasted the past several hundred years.
I suppose I may be in a minority, being able to recognize the complete separation of the game world and the real world... I often find myself confused by the reasonings of others for various things, because they're influenced by RL. I find that I can't really play if I'm too embroiled in some RL emotion, and that my RP really suffers if I deviate for a second from the idea that Layonara is a completely separate place, with people who live and breathe in its imaginary confines.
When I say "death to darkies!", the racial persecution so rampant in my part of North America never even enters my mind... All that phrase brings up is images of ebon-skinned elves slinking through the shadows with words of arcane power on their lips. Prejudice is a very real thing, and an ugly thing... But in Real Life, that prejudice is unfounded. That's what makes it so ugly and pointless. But prejudice against a Drow? Against orcs? Against goblins? Ye gods, I can't even begin to qualify or quantify the sheer brutality and evil that those have brought against the good peoples of Layonara. Prejudice there is good sense.
In the world of Layonara, white and brown forget their differences to team up on green. I'm not sure where that quote is from, but I've always liked it.
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Praylor Falcus - 3/2/2007 4:06 PM Toranite paladin code #6 All life is sacred. Raping, pillaging, and other crimesof war are strictly forbidden to those in Torans service. Killing should be an act of last resort. Honor your enemies, reguardless of thier race, even in defeat. As this disscussion is mearly the beginings of PVP open season on drow and other non accepted races, and vicea versa, is the above code to be disreguarded ? Will players which value life and are not so narrowminded as to judge one by race or skin color, have a means to have such vile examples of thier own races put in jail or executed for open unwarrented murder of another. Tis a can of worms we have not solved in real life and as such to open this to all to rp some repressed real life emotions with no repercussions is subjecting the community to activities we do should consider if we are truly a family server. Sad a middle aged white guy from Alabama has to be the one to bring this up, but having seen it in real life, i can sense the motives and tone of speech however thinly vieled to be more that just a rp question.
Just so I'm clear, I don't mean for this to have anything to do with PvP, and yes it is all about appropriately RPing the existing racial issues that exist in Layonara.
Gulnyr's summary is accurate.
I was just hoping that with V3, a fresh start could be made to adding some RP depth to this aspect on a more uniform scale. There will be a "flood" of the once-restricted races now. Will the players understand and honor the RP ball & chain that come with such a privelege? Will a new wemic stroll around Hempstead or get a room in the inn? Will a pair of drow brothers sit by the fountain and wink at the goblin ladies as they pass?
RP is a two way street. Sometimes it helps for the monsters to remember they are monsters as it makes it easier and safer feeling for other to RP against them. At least, that is my perspective.
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In addition to the points so succintly made by Stephen and PnP, to assume that PvP will result in death is foolish. Just because there's no good system for subdual damage (yet, hehehe) doesn't mean that you cant beat the daylights out of a drow who's walking openly through town... and then back off when he's beaten. Then toss the sorry sod out the front gates of the city, with a definite "and don't come back!" Mercy, in this case, is staying the killing blow... and if you were REALLY of a turn of mind to be kind, you might slip out of town after he's been tossed out and leave him a potion or two to recover from the beating.
PvP, if used intelligently, allows threats to be followed up on, warnings to have teeth, and mercy to be shown. If you can't hurt someone, you can't possibly show them mercy, nor honour them in defeat. Monstrous races are just that - monsters. If they have earned respect or friendship, they deserve it. Otherwise, why should they be treated any differently than their nasty kin? But on the subject of PvP, remember, you can STOP attacking. *grins*
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Well said Kell.
Although it might be a bit hard to control the attacks (it tends to toss a few even when you walk again) - the PVP system shouldn't be used to kill unless the situation calls for it
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"Death to darkies!"
I just agree on everything Stephen said. Maybe this is because I play, and DM pnp rpgs, not only videogames, and I have a bigger immersion. Layo is not our world, and I don't use our world prejudice in it. My warrior does not say that a woman should not be a warrior because women have to stay at home, caring about the children, being mothers and growing old in submision to their husbands. He says that because he did not saw a phisicaly strong woman yet. "Go become a mage..." he would say "...at least you are not going to live with a sword in the neck!", he would say. Some people think about layo with their societies' prejudice in their minds, like the drow problem and black people of our world.
Them someone cames and says "Oh, but is BASED on our world and the dark ages of our world, and bla", and I just remember this person that not the entire world is the same. I'm a Brazilian, and I live in Brazil, and I'm pretty much sure that on the US there's a lot og thing about "Latins" and all, as there is about black (or dark, just don't know how you mention them...) people. Let me say, in my country there is prejudice, yes sir, we are not perfect, but it's not something so in face like this, or I can say, it's MUCH LESS than in the US, or some parts of the US (please, forgive me for not knowing your country so well as you do). An example: I do know that in some places of the US there are parts of a city that "belong to dark people" or to latin people, or whatever. There's not such a thing here. A bandit, a drug dealer, a muderer can be ANYONE, and indeed, there are white people, asiatic people, dark people, in many ways of life, and that can be seen. There's not such a thing as "Oh man, he is a dark guy with a white chick" or the like. Hell, in Brazil you can find just so MUCH dark people with green, and even BLUE eyes. Even asiatics with green eyes or a little dark skin!
It may seems have gone a little away from the point, but I'm no trying to show my country and all, just showing how we should not think about the mindset of the game world with our societies as the big base. In my society prejudice is much more to how much money you have than your "race". I mean, MUCH MORE. My society is different than yours. What if I take it to think about Layo? I would surely be thinking "wrong" if people took actual US as the "norm".
My opinion is: There SHOULD be prejudice with the uncommon races, because they are, well, uncommon, and there MUST be prejudice with the mounstrous races because, hell, they are MOUNSTROUS. Drow aren't cool guy with dark skin. Some may be. But they did not get their rep for being slaves in the past. They got it because of what drows INDEED do. It really does not matter in the view of the MOB that you are the Random-Good-Drow-With-Suspecting-Name-And-Two-Scimitars, and how many Random-Dwarven-Kingdoms you recovered, in the eyes of the people, you, are, a, drow, and the way people live everyday, with the stress of the dark ages of layo, with all the despair, if someone could throw a stone on you AND get away with that, blaming you about they horrible lifes AND not being seen as bad people because of that, you may be SURE that the people WOULD do this to you.
I could enter the merit of psichology, but I think this is not for today...
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Witch Hunter - 3/3/2007 7:30 AM Well said Kell. Although it might be a bit hard to control the attacks (it tends to toss a few even when you walk again) - the PVP system shouldn't be used to kill unless the situation calls for it
Define the situation calling for it?
If my CN Misty feels strongly enough to attack you....9 times out of 10.....She is going to kill you...regardless of the insult and if anyone else thinks it's called for.
There are always more than one perspective in things like this and to make it worse....No one is ever actually right.
While you may think a situation doesn't call for PvP or killing if PvP goes ahead from your character point of view the other character may and you'll both be justified.
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A situation calling for it is a threat on your life - as we discussed on IRC (ill post it here too just so others can read)
For me at least, even if I was to fight a Drow and win - unless there was a threat on my life (or others) I would not commit the kill (by I im refering to my character) - of course, if said Drow is a threat (aka mumbles about killin 'n stuff) then yeah.
But mainly beating him up good is enough to prove my point, heh, we're players after all - we're both trying to have fun... dying rarely is fun (other than that one time me and Quantum died in a quest and got carried around most of the time without doing much work :O thats fun)
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I was thinking a color chart of race relations similar to the deity relations would be useful. Probably kind of hard to make things that black and white though.
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Witch Hunter - 3/3/2007 1:33 AM
A situation calling for it is a threat on your life
I don't think that's necessarily true. A CN character, all other things being equal (that is, if s/he is unlikely to get arrested for murder for doing so), would be just as likely to kill someone for an insult as to ignore it. If they decide to take it out on the person, a beating may suffice, or they may simply want them dead. It would take a pretty severe insult, but even so, I think it's a reasonable approach.
LN, not so much, nor TN - both lean more towards good than evil, and it's usually not lawful to kill someone for words, or even for threats, if they're not backed up. If a Lawful Neutral character saw an opponent as a threat to the law or to his life and it was within his jurisdiction, however... *slice*.
The good array: likely not. Even if the character were a moderate threat to their own life, the possibility of redemption usually outweighs pragmatism. Only if they are absolutely convinced that killing the miscreant is the only thing that will stop them will they do so... but if they are so convinced... well, I'll let Terry Pratchett round this one off:
“If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power... they will talk, they will gloat. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.” -- Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms
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Pen,
You are asking people on the forums their opinions, which is good, but one issue is there are MANY who do not even visit the forums.
Yes MANY !!!!
Not sure you can come to a solution by the forums ...
... just my 2 cents
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Anyone on Layo has to go on the fourms at least once :P
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If you do not exercise your right to vote, you have no right to complain either. Everyone is made aware of the forums and the important role it plays in this community, so if you do not want to be part of decisions and what not, then that's fine, but then you forfeit your right to scream about it, as well.
As for this... I am not very supporting of monstrous races to be tolerated in establishments, big or small. There can always be a few exceptions, but keep in mind that Drow, for example, are considered extremely evil, with their nightly raids and destruction of cities and what not. Do you think surfacers are simply going to forget that and ignore the Drow sitting out in broad daylight, in the middle of a city, pretending that nothing is out of the ordinary? Of course not. Asking "normal races" to start accepting the dark and evil that is Drow, will shake the very foundations of the race. The presence of Drow should be very rare, and the few exceptions should be very well thought-out and professionally role-played. You can't just be a random Drow that has been exiled, and still behave like a super-arrogant, master of all living. Don't you realize that Drow can also experience trauma? If forced to live on the surface, scorned by their homeworld and houses... these are all extremely dishonoring things to happen to a Drow. One who has experienced such things is surely not going to pretend he or she is still some kind of ruler of the Underdark. Sure, arrogance can still be there and sure, evil is also well and good, but you are no longer part of a mighty house or serve some powerful Matriarch. You are a no-body in your people's eyes, and you are more often than not hated by everyone on the surface. This must all be taken into your character, developed and role-played properly. (I am sure I am not the only one who has played Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II. There you have an exiled, very believable Drow character, who maintains arrogance, evil, and scorn for surface-dwellers, but is still evidently tormented by the dishonor she received by running away from her home.)
This goes for both Drow, and those who play "protectors of the Drow" as well. It must be role-played, and not everyone can without hesitation start harboring one of the ultra-evil people, one of the people who has raided the surface many times, killing anyone in their way, destroying cities. Read the description and historical events of the Drow in the Handbook, and you'll see. We can't unquestioningly defend the presence of a Drow, disregarding every piece of history we have learned about them. Before long, we'll have more elven Druids who transforms into Red Dragons in order to protect a Drow.
The reson for a Drow to be on the surface has to be very special, almost unique, and it must be role-played properly. It is a very, very difficult role to play. It's not just "I'm dark and cool now, I hate everyone and can behave like a jerk." Nor can we (the surface-dwellers) start accepting them into our homes, pretending that nothing is wrong.
I vote strictly for scorn. The city officials should not take kindly on the presence of Drow (or other monstrous races). If you choose to play such a race, you must be prepared to face the consequences of doing so. One of those consequences is limited access to crafting halls and what not, and whenever you visit a city, you must wear some sort of disguise. You chose to play Drow, and now you have to live with it. We can't change the entire world's view on your evil race, just because you want to do some crafting. If you want to be considered "one of us", that has to come gradually, in some sort of major role-playing events, that will ultimately earn the trust of a whole community. Needless to say, this is near impossible.
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I think i'm going to stop baking pies for them! hmph... nightly raids and baby eating! who knew!
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Orcs should get either pies or death. Or maybe pies with death baked into them. Or death that tastes great and loaded with high-carb berry preserves like a pie. In any case, all death should be served in 6 equally perportionate servings.
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What happened to this? I realize it's not an official survey, but we do need some final word on how we should treat monstrous races that lumber about town like they own the place.
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Treat them however your character would IC.
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So attacking a giant/ogre that lumbers through town is alright? Because that's pretty much what one or two of my characters would do, but seeing how these monsters are actually Player Characters, I suppose it's not that easy. I just don't see why they think it's alright for them to run around town like some do.
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I have to say that to my experience, it's been the reaction of other players to the monstrous race that was the problem. I've seen several characters go out of their way to conceal interesting genetics, namely tieflings and dark elves. Monstrous races can't exactly hide their appearances, of course, but I've still seen them very well handled.
But I can't say the same for the reactions of "normal" PCs! Today there was I do believe a half-giant in Port Hempstead, but he had the appearance of an ogre. My character ran away in fear to warn others, but from five others not a single one took a defensive stance. Everyone accepted the creature on sight, no questions asked, even defended its rights, offered it food, and assistance with a quest. Now, I don't mean to offend anyone, but I highly doubt that all of those people had legitimate role-play reasons for accepting a tromping monster on sight and befriending it within 10 seconds. What really gets me is the fact that they were in all likelihood killing ogres and giants outside Krandor or in caves or what have you very shortly prior to having spotted it.
This is painful. I cannot see how one can justify raiding and slaughtering a clan of giants or ogres to basically steal their minerals and treasure for yourself one minute, and hug the friendly monster in Port Hempstead the next. This smells of bad RP to me. If that creature had a red sword cursor over it, even if it was in town, I am positive half a dozen PCs would run over in aggression, not in love.
Now, I understand that Port Hempstead is home of the craft hall and such, I have seen half-giants in Port Hempstead before handled well. What concerns me is the apparent unrealism with which PCs are behaving. The "thou shalt not judge" attitude irks me most when coming from random fighters, rogues etc, which it most often does - because I see these fellows tearing into ogres, etc everyday. How possibly can every single character think it's fine to kill entire clans for natural resources, but oh dear, don't you dare point your finger at a PC orc and gasp aloud, that's racism!
I'm sorry for the abrasiveness of this post, but I can't help it. Every situation is different, I don't mean to say this always happens, or something like that. But I haven't been here too long, and I've seen it on more than one occasion. It the monstrous PC in question is surrounded by a group of five friends, I can see how one would assume it's part of a mercenary group and decide it's better to avoid pointing fingers or gasping. If one has had previous good experience with monstrous races, again, I understand.
I understand if some PCs happen to have a code, creed or belief about equal treatment. But I have thus far seen one PC other than myself react in a way other than leaping to the monstrous PC's defense. That's too much, really. What I saw today in Hempstead was just silly - this half-giant made 5 friends just by wandering through the streets - wish "normal" characters received so much positive attention.
I know I sound accusatory, but this is meant to be a complaint. I strongly believe in good RP, just because you know your cursor isn't hostile isn't reason enough to be incredibly protective and friendly, circumstances being what they are.
In fact, I didn't even see PCs raise eyebrows, the reaction was what could only be described as nonchalant. Oh, a monstrous humanoid. Hello, there.
C'mon guys, let's put some effort into it! Just jamming in a few lines like *he reaches for his sword hilt* Come no further! - would make me one happy pappy. It's such a let down when no one even puts thought into their reactions towards a monstrous PC, but behave as though they were seeing a middle-aged white human male.
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So attacking a giant/ogre that lumbers through town is alright? Because that's pretty much what one or two of my characters would do, but seeing how these monsters are actually Player Characters, I suppose it's not that easy. I just don't see why they think it's alright for them to run around town like some do.
The problem is that PCs often rely on the towns and access to the shops, etc. Whilst it's not ideal for monstrous characters to run through the town, excluding them would only really act to isolate those players even more. Sure, this is part of being a monster, but consistent solitude in a RP world isnt much fun.
Personally though, with my monstrous characters, I try to take a stealthy route through town. Not by sneaking, just by going down the back alleys and generally keeping out of people's way until I get to where I need to go. I don't really see that there's much alternative in those occasions when we absolutely have to venture into or through towns.
Having said that, I don't think any player playing a monster race has room to complain for being hassled, especially in the towns. This is the key point. My character is a goblin, he knows he shouldnt be in the towns, he just doesn't always have a choice, he is always expecting to be hassled in them. I expect (and encourage) people to confront me when they see me, and I know I would probably do the same in reverse with my Dwarf character.
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Please do note that these are half giants and half ogres...
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I may be mistaken here, but I seem to recall that halfgiants could be taken for very large human barbarians, as per the race guidelines. I believe that they are somewhat accepted in either monstrous societies or 'good' societies. So lets leave the halfgiants out of the category/race of monstrous folk, unless your character has some means of discerning what they are and also has a serious hatred for halfgiants.
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Please do note that these are half giants and half ogres...
Was that in reference to the sneaking thing?
I was talking in general terms, simply stating how I deal with it, rather than making a suggestion for how other people should conduct themselves.
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My original poll from the V2 forums got whacked, but the overwhelming concensus was that Port Hempstead was a non-monstrous town. However...
[INDENT]"C'mon guys, let's put some effort into it!"
[/INDENT]
That's my biggest problem. It's hard putting effort into it all alone. In fact, point #3 in my original post was my way of saying that. When a drow approaches the group and only one of the six others react negatively, three get defensive on the side of the drow, and the other two don't care, it gets tiring. In the end, it's just not worth it if both sides don't come to an agreement and stick to it. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that this is just the way it is.
The halfgiant you saw earlier? My PC hired him to carry clay and treated him as not much better than a talking oxen.
Need an IC excuse not to react? How about this: You see a lone drow/giant/ogre/orc in town. Anywhere else, you'd slice him up with the wide array of armaments you wear and carry. Do you feel threatened when one comes into town? Unlikely, what harm could just one do? If they raise yours or anyone else's hackles it's probably a given they're going to be dead before their next breath. (There's no way to know, of course, that that halfgiant you are scoffing at is a level 25 weaponmaster with the scythe that would spend more time cleaning you off his boots than killing you.)
My new philosophy: Treat monstrous races as weak loners and outcasts. Obviously they weren't strong enough to thrive in their own cultures.
What do you think?
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Was that in reference to the sneaking thing?
I was talking in general terms, simply stating how I deal with it, rather than making a suggestion for how other people should conduct themselves.
No, sorry, that was to MJZ
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I pretty much given up on this. Unconcealed drow and orcs, half-orcs. I always get ganged up on.
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Right yeah, and half-orcs are almost common compared to, say, drow shopping at a Deliarite temple ;) You might see them doing manual labor working the docks in Hempstead or something...the half-orcs, that is...
As mentioned previously, no one trusts anyone in Vehl, which is actually sort of a step up for drow, since it brings everyone down with them. The Rofireinites might freak out, but let's face it, they are severely outnumbered there and are limited in their responses, forcing them to pick their battles to avoid losing what presence they have there. Most, if not all alliances are temporary to serve one's own purposes, and anyone saying "don't trust him, he's a drow," would likely be met with a sullen stare and a "who says I trust either of you?"
There is 'rumored' to be an entrance to the Deep near Vehl, and many people likely go about their business with some attempt at concealing their faces. Perhaps the slender man in the shadows of the tavern is actually a drow. Would anyone ask? I doubt it. Drawing attention to others draws attention to yourself. Perhaps you even had your hood off when trying to enter the city and had a guard spit on you and tell you that they didn't need your kind around...and then opened the gate when you slipped him some coin.
The town isn't a freak-fest "I'm so happy and tolerant of everyone because I see the good in all living souls!" but rather just don't ask and don't tell...unless the pay is good.
I would say that of course Hempstead is far less tolerant of exposed evil races, not because they're tyrannical oppressors, but rather the opposite. The last time the city was ruined was a long time ago sure, but everyone living there knows it was to dragons and dark elves. It's a name to bring fear to children and another punch in the stomach to the hope of the downtrodden trying to keep their heads up, you can't protect them if you can't even try to keep anything out. BUT it's a very populated city, despite that it can't be shown with crowds of NPCs - this is probably the busiest port city in the world. If something is in a group of travelers, concealed, it seems likely that he could slip through Hempstead.
That's why I changed my original support of having NPCs react to certain subraces a long while ago. I don't want metagaming NPCs, I hate the hostesses already! :P
If such a reaction was implemented there, I would prefer it check for having armor and a helmet equipped...I realize that many wear the equivalent to a loincloth and it's not perfect, but it would bug me if someone were in giant bulky clothes and a helmet, and were chased out. Like I said in another thread...if they bother to try, then I'm happy, because it's more than I usually see. :) Everyone else gets run out of the more civilized town, or at the very least gets merchants refusing to sell to them.
In NPC terms, I would expect something harsher, if only because of the panic of mobs. I think it would depend on how quickly the guards could get there...and I would also think that there is a shortage, else surely someone more experienced than Trent would have the wheel, no matter how optimistic he is. Fact is, look at the times... people can barely protect themselves, let alone anyone else. He was probably chosen as much because there were few others capable as the fact he's good for people to look to in trouble.
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I may be mistaken here, but I seem to recall that halfgiants could be taken for very large human barbarians, as per the race guidelines.
Yep, I do agree that you can easily mistake half-giants for very large humans, my character Ariel has done this three times, in fact. But when a PC half-giant still has the appearance of an ogre and doesn't let the other players know that s/he is a half-giant and not a half-ogre, I do wonder why other PCs react in such a friendly way.
I didn't know half-giants were any more accepted than half-ogres or half-orcs, according to the lore. Interesting.
To Pen N Popper - It's especially common with dark elves, isn't it. I was even witness to a druid shapeshifting into a red dragon in defense of a dark elf... O.o
But you sound so drained - I don't want to accept that the majority adventurers will ferociously defend unknown members of monstrous races and dark elves, and most of the rest will shrug their shoulders at them. That's terrible! Can't people see that it's very unrealistic most of the time to take such a defensive and friendly stance?
Edit: Acacea's mention of monstrous-races traveling in groups of others, or wearing armor and helms coincides with my own opinions. It's unlikely to have confrontations under such circumstances, same goes from what I've experienced and heard about Fort Vehl.
But I'm not talking about slipping around, I'm talking about running through the city with very little clothing, alone. And while I do know how tough times are, wouldn't that make people all the more desirous to protect their guilds and homes, which are veritable storehouses of treasure and good food? And Fort Hempstead doesn't look like a weak town barely eking by to me - it's surrounded by enormous walls, for one thing. I just don't want to be the only one reacting to a half-ogre or an orc or a drow darting through town, and I certainly don't want to have nearly every other PC in the vicinity leaping down my throat for doing it.
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That point still refers to such races as drow and orcs.
The only Drow that I see people actually RP properly is to Daralith. I know that there is more, but they are there before my time.
The problem is two fold. People not Rp to the drow properly. The thing is that in the past Drow/monster creatures seem to have a tendency where they were friendly, Lawful Good Nuetral Good, so they were friendly, and the community accepted them.
Now that we have the new rules about alignments once people catch on that Drow/orcs etc are kanaiving and plotting then I am pretty sure that the situation will change. No one likes to be backstabbed/threatened and that is what Drow/Orc do.
Its a two way effort.
Was that in reference to the sneaking thing?
I was talking in general terms, simply stating how I deal with it, rather than making a suggestion for how other people should conduct themselves.
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The problem is two fold. People not Rp to the drow properly.
I have to agree with this. I see dark elves who don't make the slightest effort to conceal their heritage. And when you react in shock? Everyone around you stones you for doing it!
But I have another question - people toss the term "drow" around so often, I thought the name was officially changed to "dark elf"?
In any case, it's just plain foolish more often than not, in my experience. Does anyone agree with me that it's severely unrealistic and conflicting to defend PC orcs, half-ogres, etc if you routinely engage in killing them as NPCs for natural resources? Think about this - that clan hiding in a complex of caves, that's their home. Those resources are theirs. Is it then alright to invade their home, slaughter them, and take what's theirs, if you shout out "thou shalt not judge" when you see a PC of the same race in town?
Back to dark elves, it's been especially bad for me so far. People don't seem to read the race's description in the handbook or on LORE. The second line of their description reads,
"they are feared and hated by all races of Layonara."
Ca'duz and Pyrtechon are their Gods. And yet, a character who has no prior experience with the dark elves, only heard and absorbed the cross-societal revulsion to them, for some strange reason thinks they should be treated the same as anyone else. It's terrible!
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Ca'duz and V, rather... but yes, not to disagree (if you search for "drow" you will see that it is not a matter of disagreement so please don't take offense), but this has come up so many times that by now everyone is fully aware of how they are supposed to be and just flat out fight the fact that they aren't supposed to be trusted.
The player etiquette towards the monster races has been rehashed so many times that it really feels pointless to try and force-feed it anymore when it continues to be consistently misinterpreted or compared to more 'enlightened' (hehe) periods of time. I generally see the problem as the fact that everyone wants to play the PC that 'rises above the masses' and 'sees beyond the flesh' and all that, and never has to actually play amidst the view that as seen as fact in the world, nor face the many, MANY raids, killings, kidnappings, and all in all sinister plots to conquer the world and so forth, that is the justification. Also goes for the large number of good drow before the alignment restrictions. :) So many people rebel that there's not actually anything to rebel against, hehe. I'm just waiting to see how they evolve with the new alignment restrictions, because I think that helps.
The thread seemed to be about how they should be accepted based on location though, referring as much to the unseen populace as PCs which is perfectly valid to me- some places are more murderously vengeful than others, while yet others are so apathetic and beaten that they wouldn't care if it was Bloodstone they were buying cabbage from.
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How about this: Put the monstrous races into a faction that automatically sets them to dislike for all players in non-monstrous race factions? This way players would have to manually change them to like on their player list ingame. Would certainly clue people in that one's first impression of a drow should be hostile. Would also force the drow to approach travelling parties with a bit more caution lest they get smoked.
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Well, is there a way to change them to Hostile without encouraging PvP so much? My PC has a tendency to randomly attack when I'm around a hostile and they're at a certain distance away (i.e. VERY close or passing). So, maybe at a Dislike setting where it's coded so you can't attack without the PvP widget or arena?
Just suggestions...I know nothing about scripting, so I'm just throwing stuff out :)
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Um....I don't think that putting a system in place to bypass the system on PvP is very productive or in keeping with the spirit of this server. We don't want any group of characters engaging in open PvP against another regardless of the circumstances.
When we were getting ready to go to V3 and the the plans for a PvP Widget that everyone would have were announced, about half of the people who responded were quite clear in that they did not like the prospect of relaxing PvP, going so far as to assume that it would spiral out of control and ultimately harm the server. With the restrictions we have in-place, the logging and such, that's very unlikely.
Setting a group of players to be hostile to another group automatically will make them targetable. Targetable means accidental and "accidental" PvP incidents will rise. With that, hurt feelings will rise, OOC anger will increase, etc.
As Acacea pointed out, this comes up so regularly as to have lost its impact.
So....what to do about it?
The information about monstrous races are out there. The documentation of hostilities between one race and the other is out there.
This is not just a matter of players of dark elves not RPing properly but of a lot of people not RPing the cultural friction.
I know that our RL times are one of general "enlightenment" and acceptance of people who may look different but are all basically the same if you look past things like skin color, ethnicity and other such outward physical traits, because looking or being "different" is not really a bad thing.
But Layonara is not Earth....it's not the 21st century and yes, there truly are reasons to hate, or at least distrust, a person based on their appearance.
Dark Elves for instance have a long history of brutality, treachery, attacks on the surface (both historical and in-game events) and a long list of other infractions both against the other races as well as against themselves. Dark Elf society is one of back-stabbing, constant struggles for power and the like.
Dark elves don't even trust each other.
Of all the player races available, Elves especially should not, ever, ever have their initial reaction to Dark Elves be one of tolerance, enlightenment or acceptance. Someone might say, "Oh, but my Elf character was raised to be tolerant of everyone, including Dark Elves." Fact of the matter is, this is extremely unlikely if raised in an Elven society. Equally unlikely is the idea that a Dark Elf child who showed a leaning toward being compassionate in any way would be allowed to live long enough to escape the Deep.
So I know this is going to sound a lot like a "You should do it this way" kind of post, but it's not.
Having said everything above, calls for a unified community standard on how to treat monstrous races just cannot and should not be established.
In my own opinion, certain things should be RPed with respect to racial relationships. But that doesn't mean I am going to tell you how you should RP them....or if you should RP them at all. The key thing is to keep these things in mind when RPing.
And that goes for the players of monstrous races as well. Act according to your character's race, alignment and background.
A couple final notes:
It's important not to meta-game racial information. The two biggest infractions in this area are:
1) Reading the floating name of the character and meta-gaming their race from either recognition or the Server Status page and screaming out "DARK ELF!!!!!" There are many Dark Elves who remain in disguise while in the open. Keep that in mind.
2) If you see an "ogre" in town, chances are really good this is a half-giant, and would, in fact, look much different to your character. In the earlier days, we were limited by the lack of availability of a suitable model for half-giant characters, and this still has some effect today. In this case, visuals are not as helpful as one would hope.
Anyway, in my opinion, both the players of monstrous races and the players of "normal" races both have some share of guilt in how our characters portray the inter-character relations between such racial types. However, establishing and enforcing some kind of "community standard" just isn't practical.
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Well put, and thank you. I do not think we were after a community standard, more to point out that there are many, many players out there who do not role-play their race or their reaction towards another race properly. When 90% of the players are all cuddly-loving to monsters and Dark Elves, it just becomes silly. In any case, I feel your post cleared up matters, and I can only hope some people read this and will, hopefully, make appropriate changes to how they play. Not everyone can be in love with everyone and tolerate every single living thing.
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AS a very new layo player i'm coing too chime in here.
i'm on my second pc and chose a Dark elf female, orginall she hid her identy very well and everyone just asumed by her accent she was elven. after avout 2-3 RL weeks or in game terms 2 years or so. she meet both a dark elf who opening showed his herritage and seemed well accepted. then shortly later she reveled her true herritage too 2 PC's she was travleing with for game time 5-7 months. the accepted her very openlysince
1) they already knew her
2) had derk elves as friends already
3) possesed shady past them selves
now she walks openly as a dark elf. she's still very ingorant of teh world of men haveing isolated her self soo much ont eh surface out of fear. i have had a few PC react almost hositle towards her. with some people having 15-30+ years of gaem life there pc have meet a few dark elves that proved themselves too be good. so i can see teh PC's haveing a resonable amoutof tollarance towards a monster race PC.
the PC's are suposed too be teh hero's and villans of teh world. now teh general populace i would suspect will act hostile or at least un frieldly towards a monster race pc. It's just very hard too tell some how to RP there character to react towards other PC. are you going too tell Dwarves to be openly hostile towards Elves? I think you have too let people descide for them selves how to RP THERE pc's. so far i have seen both acceptance and hostility. It problaly helps that Xune is a female and seems rather ignorante of teh world so she always ask questions much like a child does. she just seems innocent with her ingorance. she simply does not know.
for wxample when she first meet a paladain she had no idea what that was. ( not all of of paladains in drow socity). It took him quite awhile too get her too understand what that ment. she keep calling him a cleric or a warrior. the concept of a paladain simply eluded her.
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I don't think that's necessarily true. A CN character, all other things being equal (that is, if s/he is unlikely to get arrested for murder for doing so), would be just as likely to kill someone for an insult as to ignore it. If they decide to take it out on the person, a beating may suffice, or they may simply want them dead. It would take a pretty severe insult, but even so, I think it's a reasonable approach.
LN, not so much, nor TN - both lean more towards good than evil, and it's usually not lawful to kill someone for words, or even for threats, if they're not backed up. If a Lawful Neutral character saw an opponent as a threat to the law or to his life and it was within his jurisdiction, however... *slice*.
It kind of scares me seeing this from a character approver. Neutral is neutral, whether TN, CN, or LN. None of those three alignments "lean more towards good than evil". In fact before evil was allowed to be played without long amounts of RP and a CDT, TN was as close to evil as you could get from an alignment. Keep in mind TN is NOT evil and needs to be played as TN, but a TN person has a lot of room to do evil acts as well as good acts, as long as their actions are not backed by evil or good intent.
For people who think good people, especially lawful aligned (this goes for LN & LG) do only good or neutral acts (that means their actions are not backed by good or evil intentions) are crazy. Church members, like the pope are as LG as you can get. They follow a strict law/code, and do kind and good acts, as long as they fit within thier law/code. More people have died in the name of god or some religion than anything other thing in the world. Cancer can not touch these people.
We are talking about lawful biding, good citizens, that because of their lawful beliefs, did things to other human beings that can not be fathomed. Just look at the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, and the inquistions. These were led by what the times defined as good people, who raised families, saved lives, and did their best to better thier communities. Just along the way they burnt little girls, tortured people, and killed every woman, child and adult who didn't praise Jesus.
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My apologies to Drizzlin, and any others who found my post (quoted in Drizzlin's post above) unclear or inaccurate. I clearly wasn't particularly erudite that day, and I'll freely admit my word choice was far from ideal. The use of the word "lean" has grown, at least on Layonara, to mean an intention of shifting alignments, and it was misplaced in my statement. More to the point, you're correct in saying that Neutral is Neutral as far as actions are concerned, which is how we generally define alignments here. My original statement was actually meant to refer to the intentions of a character, rather than his actions, per se.
Before I proceed any further, let me say that there are many types of neutral characters, just as there are many different ways to play any given alignment. Therefore, there will undoubtedly be characters that completely and totally contradict what I am about to say. That said, a large proportion of neutral characters probably believe they are good characters. Their neutrality is a result of their actions -- or inaction -- and not their intentions.
To quote from LORE, "Characters who are of true neutral alignment may well be simply characters who have the inclinations of Neutral Good, but not the commitment to them." Likewise, roughly the same can be said of lawful neutral characters. Chaotic neutral characters, on the other hand, are less likely to view themselves as either good or evil because they often see both of these extremes as somewhat structured.
However, this thread is about the treatment of the monstrous races, so lest I hijack it further, I'll end here and leave all further discussion of the subtleties of alignments for a more appropriate thread. Again, apologies if my original post was unclear, and thanks to Drizzlin for pointing this out.