The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: MJZ on March 20, 2007, 02:48:52 PM
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I suppose someone at some point has already suggested this and it has been decided against, but I still think it's an interesting idea!
Couldn't we work in a sort of 'favoured craft' as a part of character creation? As with a language ear, if a character's biography involves some sort of crafting skill, baking, smelting, sewing, or what have you, they could request one skill to be 'favoured.' I suppose decreasing the required XP to gain levels in that favoured craft would involve some sort of heavy CNR scripting modifications, so maybe the character could begin at level 2 or 3 in the favoured craft.
Let me draw up an example. In Ariel's biography, she spent 14 years living with her foster father, an inventor, helping along with his zany gizmos and gadgets. I could then ask for tinkering to be a favoured craft due to this information.
I do of course realize every character should start from "scratch" in as many ways as possible, but I do find it a bit of a hamper to have a character with a supposed predisposition to something who's just as bad as anyone else at it, in reality.
I just thought it was an interesting idea. *Braces for impact*
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That isn't a bad idea actually. It could make RP interesting, but It shouldn't give PCs to big of an advantage, maybe like starting them at lvl 3 in a craft, but not making them amazing.
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Yeah, starting at Level 3 is not that big anyway, seeing how you can reach that in any craft in an hour or two. So this would be more of a symbolic, role-play related feature, which means, I'd love it.
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Why don't we just write in our bios how much training our mage has had that is above the average and request to start at level 3? :)
It would have to cost something, and when it comes to crafting, if people were allowed to have favored ones then should they really be able to level as normal in everything else, still? Think of wizard specializing! It's been pointed out several times that people excelling in many crafts, some of which have nothing to do with each other, is a little silly. So I imagine if something like this was put forward, the opposite would have to be true as well.
I don't think it's really likely, though. Just saying.
(1st level background feat: Craft - Tinker: +1 to rolls for tinkering... ! :P )
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Imagine that, as suggested above, a character has a background as a tinker, and spent 14 years tinkering prior to entering the world as a level 1 character.
Now imagine that another character has a background as a town guard in a moderately dangerous area, and spent 14 years at it prior to entering the world as a level 1 character.
If the tinker's background (and the length of time spent in that background) gives her levels in tinkering, shouldn't the former guard who saw combat receive an attack bonus? He's not just some fresh new kid who just got his first sword, so he should be better than a raw level 1 Fighter, right? What makes a profession like tinkering or weapon smithing or cooking different than other professions, like being a guard? Why should some professions be treated differently? How much time is enough time to gain a bonus? Would a background of 30 years or 50 years or 100 years get a bigger bonus than a background of 14 years? Shouldn't it work that way?
I think you'd agree it would be pretty lame to see a lot of character submissions written with a paragraph or two just to get a couple of levels in a craft (or any other practical bonus), and it wouldn't be very special if every other character had it. If this were something available to all new characters, wouldn't the character who had been tinkering for 14 years still be just as bad as everyone else at it, really? I mean, any character with the right words in his submission would have tinkering levels, right?
If it really only takes a couple of hours to get two or three levels in a craft, then what would really be gained for all the work on a submission, and the work by the approvers, and the work by the team members who would build all the scripts and tools to bump new characters up X levels in a craft? Why not just go get a level or two in the craft and then pretend they came from the character's background?
EDIT: Or, y'know, Acacea can write a shorter version.
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Why don't we just write in our bios how much training our mage has had that is above the average and request to start at level 3? :)
It would have to cost something, and when it comes to crafting, if people were allowed to have favored ones then should they really be able to level as normal in everything else, still? Think of wizard specializing! It's been pointed out several times that people excelling in many crafts, some of which have nothing to do with each other, is a little silly. So I imagine if something like this was put forward, the opposite would have to be true as well.
I don't think it's really likely, though. Just saying.
(1st level background feat: Craft - Tinker: +1 to rolls for tinkering... ! :P )
A backgroud feat only selectable at level 1 is a good option for this.
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A backgroud feat only selectable at level 1 is a good option for this.
I believe that NWN is built and operates in a way that makes that impossible. I think the haks are loaded only after you log into the world, which is why special subrace stats aren't applied until the character enters the game and why the experience display when choosing a character before logging in shows the wrong amount of experience needed for the next level. In the same way, character creation takes place "outside" Layonara and the haks, so custom feats wouldn't show up during creation of a brand new character. Custom level 1-only background feats would be cool, but I don't think they are possible.
That's my understanding, anyway.
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True!
I like the PRC server conversation character creator though...! They have new base classes and races (whose benefits are base stats, not magical effects), but because haks aren't loaded first, you usually need a client-side local character creator...but they made a server-one, too. Which makes me happy. Sort of. It would, if I were using it anywhere. :P The idea makes me happy! There we go.
It works in that you basically click recommended for everything in the Bioware creation, set your appearance if you want, and then you create your character with an in-game conversation, instead, so that everything is still in the hands of the server.
There is a downside in that if you set everything up the first time, you still have to do it again in the conversation even if you were happy with the standard stuff, but that's why you're supposed to make sure no one puts all the effort into the wrong creation, hehe.
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Why don't we just write in our bios how much training our mage has had that is above the average and request to start at level 3? :)
Oh come on, I don't think that's really fair. I did say I realize we want to keep new characters as "from scratch" as possible for obvious reasons. I see CNR as more of a roleplay element like the language ears, something to give your character an economic means other than killing and something to do. And Gulnyr, we do already see lots of "lame character submissions" squeezing in language ears, separating forced from thoughtful is what the approvers are there for, isn't it? Not every character with the "right words" would be able to squeeze in a random craft into their biography, unless it was suited to their character's past, I think that much is obvious.
And you really are being a bit over the top, I suggested there be a small fixed increase in a single CNR craft, I didn't question the foundations of the campaign's settings.
Good thing I braced for impact
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I see CNR as more of a roleplay element like the language ears, something to give your character an economic means other than killing and something to do.
But it isn't just a roleplay element. Check out the characters inventories, and you'll find that very nearly all, if not every single one, even the super-epic characters, use items that were crafted. Weapons, armor, enchantments, potions, rings, food - all the "best" stuff comes from crafting. Crafting isn't just a minor, forgotten nook that has no impact.
And Gulnyr, we do already see lots of "lame character submissions" squeezing in language ears, separating forced from thoughtful is what the approvers are there for, isn't it? Not every character with the "right words" would be able to squeeze in a random craft into their biography, unless it was suited to their character's past, I think that much is obvious.
I am generally inclined to agree that some of the language ear requests seem forced. As such, I don't think it would be good to encourage more of it by opening a new category for such "abuse." At the same time, languages really are just roleplay elements. You can't gain anything especially practical by knowing a language; you can just overhear other people's conversations and understand them.
Good thing I braced for impact
I didn't mean to sound harsh. The idea just raises a lot of questions for me, and doesn't seem to fit well.
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Of course it's not a forgotten nook that has no impact (roleplay isn't a forgotten nook either!) it fuels the player economy and I think it's meant to. But the average character doesn't become lvl20+ in any given craft all that quickly, that's where guilds come in handy.
It's not exactly harshness, it's just that you take whatever is said and, well, exaggerate it quite a bit. :P
But anyways, I understand if you don't think it fits well, that's why the first line of the thread is the way it is. I just had a couple of people suggest I post this idea up on the forums so others could take a look at it, so here I am.
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Yeah be nice to MJZ :P
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I think you're being unfair, Gulnyr. She never claimed it to be strictly a role-play element. And even if it was, it wouldn't mean it has no impact. Of course people use crafted items. I believe the entire idea with this suggestion was to open up for discussion, whether or not to add another element to your character's creation. It's not like two free levels in the role-played craft is going to severely unbalance anything or give that character an unfair advantage. It's more of a rather symbolic flavor of role-play, that I know many people would find interesting.
I think you'd agree it would be pretty lame to see a lot of character submissions written with a paragraph or two just to get a couple of levels in a craft[...]
Aren't the character approvers proficient enough to locate and point out sections that are obviously "crammed in", in a player's character submission? I think they are. And as MJZ already stated, we see it a lot already when it comes to language ears. I think the approvers handle it very well, and would do so with 'favored craft' as well. It's not that difficult.
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At the risk of taking things too far off-topic, yes, the character approvers and GMs are savvy enough to spot the "squeezed in" stories about language ears, and those generally get denied.
But then to extend that analogy, it would be far easier to justify a craft than a language.
And for what it's worth, I think it's very fair to compare writing a good story to justify crafting levels at start with justifying character levels at start. For example, why not claim that a character has spent 14 years practicing with a master swordsman and therefore he should qualify for at least 3 levels of fighter. This surely wouldn't be fair for those characters who would have earned those 3 levels, however insignificant they might be in the grand scheme...and by that same token, why don't we just skip the formality and just give everyone 3 levels in their chosen class and one chosen craft, because once we open that possibility, everyone will do it.
And why stop there? Why not say that the character has spent 14 years doing intense strength training and should therefore get +2 strength over what is normally available by the point-buy at character creation? *rhetorical question*
But whether we're talking about character or crafting levels, there's still a level of GM involvement and/or system support that would have to happen in such a case. If we were to say "OK" to being able to write crafting levels into one's bio today, then there are maybe 4 people who have the access and know-how to actualy add those crafting levels by manually editing the database...or one of those 4 people would have to spend time crafting some kind of custom system to allow setting that somewhat easily...or any other number of possible solutions, all of which take time.
Now, time is not really an issue if it's an important thing, but let's consider for a moment if 3 levels of crafting would be important. I submit is is not, and here's why. As has been stated, reaching level 3 in anything, crafting or character levels, is a relatively trivial exercise and something that is attained fairly rapidly and in that would have minimal impact overall. For something that has such little impact, is it worth all the development time to add it into the world? Personally, I don't think so.
"Driving the economy" was given as a possible benefit above. Again, I say it really wouldn't affect things that much. The economy is doing just fine in the gold department, some would even say too well. There's a lot of gold floating around, and it ends up mostly in the hands of high-level crafters, where it does...what? Not much except purchase guild houses...which then serve to help build those bank balances right on back up again, which then just gather dust. What's needed is a way to pull gold completely out of the economy, not to find ways for it to generate more with no practical limit.
Speaking of guilds, it was said that they help produce high level crafters. This is true, but then that touches on another point...
Why is it so important for a crafter to reach a high level in a short(er) period of time?
As an element of enhancing RP...well, now we're mixing messages. Is level important to RP? Character levels certainly are not. Why should crafting levels be?
These are just questions, since this is a discussion, but questions that the developers try to consider before adding any system to the game world, or making a relatively significant investment in time trying to modify an existing one.
One last note on "enhancing RP"...
I think everyone would agree that it could enhance the RP of one's character by being able to claim decendency from nobility, or to have some prominent figure in Layonara's history as a blood relative. And yet, we disallow things like this because of the perception of advantage and the need to eliminate the possiblity of claims later on in terms of inheritance or special privilege that was just "written in" rather than earned in-game. By the same token, we don't allow people to have starting items like an heirloom sword or armor, even if they are used solely for RP purposes, because again, they give an unfair advantage, however small that advantage may seem.
Just some things to think about... :)
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The problem I can see with this lies in the same direction as the Language Ears - GM interaction. GMs have to be petitioned in-game to give language ears that are unusual to a character. Languages are supposed to be reasonably difficult to acquire, so most characters do not have to do this.
I cannot see a crafting background being rare. I've seen dozens, if not hundreds of people whose father was "a blacksmith/alchemist/gem cutter/tailor". I'm not saying this is a bad thing, far from it! These are reasonable NPC occupations that would earn reasonable money, and are pleasantly mundane (and therefore fit the "no nobility" submission requirements.) This would make crafting background requests pretty much mundane, and therefore not requiring too much by way of writing in a bio - a paragraph, at most.
At which point, we have a couple more problems. Now character approvers have another small item to address that could hold up the approval process (adjusting a bio to accept an ear can already be an issue). Second, it would involve the creation of a new and possible complex GM tool, as I know of no function built into Neverwinter script to add xp to the database.
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I definitely see some of your points, though still I don't see why it's valid to compare a favoured craft to adding stat points in strength or levels in fighter or what have you - those are entirely separate issues in my mind. I didn't tie the idea of having a favoured craft directly to adding a few levels in it - it was only an example of how possibly to implement it. Decreasing the required xp to level up in it was my original thought, but I assumed that would mean overhauling CNR - *shudders at the idea of it*
It seems like there's quite a bit of contentious conjecture going on - do we really need to get into the philosophy of why we can't have noble lineage or why we bother to level up at all or what have you? I could do it right back - "why do halflings get a bonus to their dexterity? What if my character is really clumsy but actually born smart, can I get etc etc" - that's just ridiculous. That's what stat distribution is for on character creation - if your character trained with his sword you take weapon focus on character creation. If he lifted weights that's why you added points into strength upon character creation. Stat and skill allocation DO have applications upon character creation. CNR has none. I thought it might be a feasible idea to suggest there be some manner of CNR application on character creation. This differs from requesting special bonuses to things already dealt with upon creation. Am I making sense on how those issues are separated?
If we were to say "OK" to being able to write crafting levels into one's bio today, then there are maybe 4 people who have the access and know-how to actualy add those crafting levels by manually editing the database...or one of those 4 people would have to spend time crafting some kind of custom system to allow setting that somewhat easily...or any other number of possible solutions, all of which take time.
I understand completely, and I know there is a lot of work going on, what with the new version and the new campaign and all. :p
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Ability and skill point allocation can be done on character creation because they are part of the base engine. CNR is an add-on, and a big one at that. There is no way we can implement any sort of "pick your favored craft" during character creation because we simply do not have that kind of control of the game engine nor is there any support for it.
And while it would be perfectly feasible to do so after the character is created, such as in the starting area, again, we get into manpower to create such a thing, some way to verify that the correct choice was made based on what was approved, and so forth.
We also still have the question as to whether or not this is fair. In no way am I saying that the concept is flawed, because in the convenient realities we try to bring into the game, it makes a certain sense. However, there are hundreds (well, thousands) of characters on the server who did not ever have that chance or opportunity to get that early boost. For something like this to work and be proper, it would have to be a part of things from the start.
And then I keep coming back to the idea that if we had something like this, then everyone would choose the option, and then Level 3 in crafting would be the new Level 1....and then we've spent a lot of time to accomplish basically nothing.
If a custom feat could be made available at level 1 that gave a bonus to rolls (and then subsequent feats that stack on it, perhaps), then it might be a worthwhile pursuit, but since that's not really what we have to work with, the alternatives don't really seem to justify the effort nor really address the underlying idea.
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As an element of enhancing RP...well, now we're mixing messages. Is level important to RP? Character levels certainly are not. Why should crafting levels be?
Here is what I think that crafting can be seen as RP base only.
If you are the kind of player that prefers RP instead of bashing, and isn't scared of highly repetitive things, you could end up making a char that never level up in its adventuring experience or so little that it has no impact, but be the best crafter out there.
That would mean that your renown is not for what you have done outside in the world but for the quality in crafting you can produce.
I think here of a jeweler. An image that comes to mind is someone that is not really in shape, scrawny, little, maybe fat with eyeglasses for staying inside all the time looking at smallish object there for over using his eyesight and giving it a strain.
Now we all know that these exist, do you see those guys actually going to south Africa and go mine the diamond themselves? no they have someone else go for them. In a RP sense this can be done as well in game. And if you have that type of character it is perfectly normal in a RP sense that he would spend most of his time crafting to reach the experience and fame necessary for his skills to be viewed as the master of it's craft.
Now the only things that prevent this IG is the fact that to support your crafting learning curve you need
1- the gold: You could always find that sugar daddy that would see in you the next wonder wise of tinkering or armor crafting.
2- Specific craft: like, scribing; enchanting and infusing, you have no choice to have adventuring level as well as your crafting experience, else you do not have the spells necessary to craft those.
So yes RP wise level in crafting can have a significant RP enhancing effect, it all depends on how masochist a player can be on limiting himself to doing only one thing and sticking to it in the long run.
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Regardless, I feel that Dorg's point rather closes the discussion - whether or not crafting levels can be treated in an RP-rich sense, the game's architecture does not lend itself to making a feat that would help crafting rolls... and if it became like language ears, granted at submission
...Level 3 in crafting would be the new Level 1....and then we've spent a lot of time to accomplish basically nothing.
So while your point may be valid, Hellblazer, on the subject of favoured crafts, RP or not, I don't see any way to implement this in a way that avoids the stated pitfalls.
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My point is not on a favored class of RP I should have added that it bears no effect. But to the statment that Crafting can not have a valid impact in enhancing RP.
Som of my most enjoyable moments of RP have been made while me or Sonya or someone else where crafting.
Sonya will remember the time she and Rain were doing some smelting at the hot and steamy smealting sation at the smitty.;) Where He was showing her what litle he knew the same way a boyfriend would teach his girlfriend to play pool.
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Just to clarify...
I never said crafting cannot have a valid impact on RP. I said that crafting levels should not be critical to the RP. My own character has been an alchemist pretty much since I made him, and if someone asks, "what do you do?" he responds by saying he's an alchemist, even though by now he's gained quite a few levels in the craft.
The RP of crafting levels is not about the specific level so much as the relative skill and/or advancement in that particular craft....just like character levels. It always bothers me when characters state they are a "fighter of 12 seasons" or a "mage of the 9th circle" or whatever.
After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft). I'm not sure if this is an oversight or more of a desire to not impact a character's build by devoting feats to crafting. Though if you think about it, those who are advocating the idea of a master crafter shouldn't mind so much sacrificing a few combat feats to make themselves better crafters.
This last point is one that stands a far greater chance of being implemented than any of the scenarios listed above because...well...it's relatively easy and it does require the player to actually do some thinking about their character's progression and make some sacrifices in their combat/magic/rogue abilities for the sake of their crafts.
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After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft).
But I did suggest something like that, twice! In my initial post and in the one before this - I just phrased it a different way, talking about xp percentage.
CNR is an add-on, and a big one at that. There is no way we can implement any sort of "pick your favored craft" during character creation because we simply do not have that kind of control of the game engine nor is there any support for it.
Sure, I understand that. Darkstorme's first post was also very helpful, giving me a lot of information about the technical aspects of the issue, which is really what I was interested in.
As I've mentioned, I completely understand if due to the mechanics it's more trouble than it's worth. I also understand if there is consensus that keeping characters as "from scratch" (which I keep saying) as possible is necessary.
But I still do have a few points to address in retrospect, because I feel that several things said have been more argumentative than objective and this distresses me. I did hesitate to suggest this because I had a premonition about the reaction and now I am made to regret having done it.
...Level 3 in crafting would be the new Level 1....and then we've spent a lot of time to accomplish basically nothing.
Really, that wouldn't be the case at all. The idea was a character could have this benefit in ONE single craft, not all of them. Hence 'favoured.' Hence one single craft would be a little boosted, making it a bit easier to begin with than all of the others. The same would apply for the proposed success percentage increase. If someone were suggesting ALL crafts be boosted then of course it wouldn't make a difference, but no one is suggesting that.
I also feel my explication about the rather extensive analogies that were being drawn to a the idea of a favoured craft (why not then add levels in fighter, attack bonus, etc) was ignored. To begin with, I don't see why it was necessary for several people to describe various extensive inane examples using my "fourteen years with an inventor" as a template. You have to see how this is offensive in nature. All it did was to lump my suggestion into the group of stupid ideas, and rather unfairly so.
When I showed what I meant, that there are very obvious implements for being a guard for 14 years such as feats and stat points on creation but none for crafting, that was when I began to hear more objective information. I don't understand why we couldn't have just spoken about the various technical aspects to begin with, instead of making long posts that took what had been said (not just by myself, by others as well when speaking of RP elements and such) and comparing them to rather ridiculous things extensively. It had little to nothing to do with the suggestion.
Thank you for all of the concrete criticism and commentary. But I am upset about the lines and lines that seemed aimed at lumping my idea into unrelated and obviously disagreeable ideas. It was truly unnecessary, and it really didn't accomplish anything.
Thanks again for taking the time to detail the objective comments.
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"When I showed what I meant, that there are very obvious implements for being a guard for 14 years such as feats and stat points on creation but none for crafting, "
Yes but what you're suggesting means one would get both level 3 in a certain craft AND a feat thats good for his chosen class :)
it could be simply made into a rule that no one can be good in a certain craft in their bio...
A blacksmith would not be more than an apprenatice (and an appreantice blacksmith isn't all that glorious)
A tailor wouldn't do more than cloth and simple leathers (which is basiclly level 1 tailoring) and so forth so forth.
It would give him an IC reason to pick up a craft though - which beats the "okay I want to do blacksmithing now because I need money *suddenly starts leveling armor crafting*"
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I understand that the Internet sometimes is horrible when it comes to relaying feelings and the tone of someone's voice. However, I am still feeling upset about the kind of responses I am reading here.
Acacea, Dorganath, and Gulnyr... what are you doing? From your very first replies in this thread, MJZ has been met by nothing but extreme hostility, where you resort to ridiculous so-called "counter-arguments" about being a noble or having a higher starting character level. This suggestion was completely valid, opening the topic up for discussion, nothing more. If there are technical complications to this that you would like to avoid, then by all means, tell us about those complications, like darkstorme did! Instead, all you could do was to attack her with the kind of contempt and scorn one would only expect from someone's enemy, not from people with a standing like yourselves.
This is making me feel as though suggesting anything is a really bad idea, seeing how, if it is something the team does not approve of, you will be met with severe animosity like this, where "common players" are exposed to ganged-up ridicule and other verbal attacks. The way you have treated this suggestion leaves me feeling very disappointed.
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Yes but what you're suggesting means one would get both level 3 in a certain craft AND a feat thats good for his chosen class :)"
Nope, I never suggested that. I suggested the idea of a favoured craft, how to implement it was just an example. Dorganath's idea of success percentage increase is a great one. I don't really see what you mean here though Witch. [Echo] The idea is crafting has no application upon character creation, I thought it was an interesting idea that it could.
Edit: Woah. I'm sorry it upset you so much Kindo. This tends to happen to me. 8)
...*reaches for consolatory Kanar*
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If there are technical complications to this that you would like to avoid, then by all means, tell us about those complications, like darkstorme did! Instead, all you could do was to attack her with the kind of contempt and scorn one would only expect from someone's enemy, not from people with a standing like yourselves.
OK, I'm not sure where the perception of hostility came in, but I assure you that absolutely none is intended, nor even thought, while writing any of my responses in this thread. Disagreement or resistance is not the same as an attack. I have no "contempt" or "scorn" or any other negative emotion for the original poster or you or anyone else you think I was hostile toward.
I cannot speak for Acacea or Gulnyr or anyone else who has responded in this thread. For my own position, you all need to understand that in deciding what kinds of things go into the game and how they get implemented, the GMs and developers look at the overall big picture.
This is not a criticism of anyone, but a large majority of suggestions are made because someone gets an idea, many of which are wonderful ideas, and in proposing that idea the entire concept is rather narrow, and surely most people here don't really know anything about the foundations of our systems, what kinds of limits Bioware enforces, etc.
Beyond that, there's a certain administrative aspect to many of these things. Yes, such things are generally OOC, but they're important factors all the same. And finally, there are issues of balance which go into pretty much everything, and such issues become even more critical when touching on a system as complex and integrated with this world as CNR.
And so, all of my responses here have not be hostility toward the idea (which I believe I acknowledged made a certain degree of sense in at least one of my responses) or the person suggesting it, but rather to go into detail about how the idea, as given, is not necessarily a good fit and then to explain why it is not a good fit so that everyone would understand. No offense or anything else was ever intended.
I thought the point of bringing this up was for discussion and to hopefully come up with a solution that might be agreeable and workable, one that made sense in terms of benefit vs. manpower...and more importantly, one that makes sense in all aspects where it matters in this world.
Now, let me clarify and explain a few things which I believe have been misinterpreted:
1) I really don't understand why such offense was taken when others extended the metaphor to other aspects of the game. The initial suggestion was for some system that would add crafting preference to character creation in much the same way as a language ear. The only problem with treating crafting levels and/or crafting XP and/or crafting ability/bonuses like language ears is that language ears don't ultimately affect game play, character advancement, etc. Crafting is a very important part of the game. At the risk of sounding like I am minimizing their importance, language ears add depth to RP, but they don't really advance a character in a mechanical sense.
And so, since giving bonus crafting levels or a bonus to crafting for free at character creation and based on the character biography alone does, in fact, add an advantage to that character, it is perfectly fair to draw the "14 years with a master swordsman" parallel. Again, my comment was not to trivialize your example but to further extend it and illustrate a potential pitfall in allowing mechanical bonuses based on one's character bio.
Mentioning noble backgrounds, free items as "heirlooms" and whatever else I may have said was to further illustrate how we have to have limits as to what is given out for "free" at character creation.
2) I don't want to get into an argument. I think there are already some issues with properly perceiving what was written, and I do try to avoid such things whenever possible, but a text-only medium combined with possible problems in translation sometimes do not allow what is meant to be properly expressed.
However, what I meant here:
After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft). I'm not sure if this is an oversight or more of a desire to not impact a character's build by devoting feats to crafting. Though if you think about it, those who are advocating the idea of a master crafter shouldn't mind so much sacrificing a few combat feats to make themselves better crafters.
...was that the feat be one that is taken at some point after character creation, not in how it works. While it is true that the original post suggested a feat that would give a bonus (in the form of an accelerated XP progression), it was explicitly stated that it would happen at character creation. What I stated in the quoted text is that the feat would not be "free" and available at character creation but would rather take the place of another feat that is taken at one of the normal intervals (i.e. every 3 levels). I think if one were to re-read what I wrote up there, it should be apparent that is what I meant. If it is confusing, then I apologize, but the point was not the mechanics of the bonus (faster XP, better rolls, better chance of success) but rather the player needing to make a decision between crafting-related feats and combat/metamagic/defensive feats.
I go on to say that this is a far more likely scenario because a) it's much easier to implement and b) it makes the player sacrifice a bit of their character's "power" in order to favor crafting...which, if someone were to devote themselves primarily to a particular craft, would make all the sense in the world. Someone who focuses on crafting would not be as good as a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue because there is only so much time to devote to one's pursuits.
This was proposed as an alternative solution and to possibly get the discussion moving onto something that would fit the world better in my opinion.
Now, I don't have much else to say on this situation, except that it's unfortunate that the assumption was made that I am somehow being hostile or confrontational. I believe in explaining things with a lot of detail and examples in such cases so that players can understand where we (i.e. the GM and development teams) come from and the things we look at when evaluating these suggestions so that the ideas can be discussed in and grow in the proper context and perhaps produce something that will in the end be something which can be put into Layonara in a meaningful way.
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This is making me feel as though suggesting anything is a really bad idea, seeing how, if it is something the team does not approve of, you will be met with severe animosity like this, where "common players" are exposed to ganged-up ridicule and other verbal attacks. The way you have treated this suggestion leaves me feeling very disappointed.
I want to address this specifically...
I will state again, I have no animosity toward this idea. None. Nor did I attack anyone, nor did I "gang up" on anyone. My opinions are my own. Furthemore, I don't look at anyone as "common players" in terms of things like this. Ideas are ideas.
And yes, I realize that my position on the teams gives my words greater weight, which is why I put a lot of consideration into what I write to hopefully a) educate and inform as to why something may or may not be a good fit, and b) avoid future misunderstandings.
Having said all that, just because I may not agree with something does not mean it will not be implemented, nor does it mean that I somehow disapprove of the person making the suggestion. However, I have a deep interest in making sure that whatever does get implemented is done in the right way, and that extends across the technical as well as administrative and mechanical aspects of the game. In other words: it has to make sense in many ways. I also feel that if I'm going to join the discussion and say something probably isn't a good idea, it's important for me to say why, and to do so in a way that can be understood and perhaps built upon to further refine the idea.
Some people may take offense at this, but disagreeing on some points and working toward a mutually agreeable outcome is what discussions like this are all about. In my experience, the original idea is rarely the final idea, and the more information about the factors involved that everyone has, the better.
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From your very first replies in this thread, MJZ has been met by nothing but extreme hostility, where you resort to ridiculous so-called "counter-arguments" about being a noble or having a higher starting character level. ... Instead, all you could do was to attack her with the kind of contempt and scorn one would only expect from someone's enemy, not from people with a standing like yourselves.
Neither Acacea, Dorganath, nor I attacked anyone, and none of us were hostile. I admit I can be pretty blunt, but that's just because like getting to the point instead of beating around the bush. I'm not "posting angry." Again, none of us attacked anyone. We did post views that were counter to the original proposal, but that is an entirely different thing than attacking someone.
Any idea or suggestion should be open for discussion, and it is extremely unlikely that any idea is perfect when first suggested. Ideas aren't truly tested until they are pushed to their limits. Even though those of us who posted in this thread might not try to gain any sort of advantage with such a system as suggested, someone else certainly would, and it's important to consider that sort of thing when examining an idea. While the counter-argument of starting everyone at level 3 is extreme and highly rhetorical, other counter-points were not.
We all understand that stat points, skill points, feat selection, and class choice are built into the system and crafting specialty isn't. The original suggestion, which I understand we have moved away from, was to have those characters with a background in a craft begin with a boost in that craft. Or, in semi-mathematics, Previously Trained Crafter > Brand New Unskilled Crafter. That's makes sense, and is a nice idea. The point you are missing, though, is that Previously Trained Fighter > Brand New Untrained Fighter, yet there is nothing in the rules of character creation to allow a Fighter with background experience to have any kind of leg-up on those Fighters who have never before held a weapon. There are no feat or skill or stat restrictions of any kind on either background. The analogy between the Fighters and the crafters are not unfair.
I know that people feel attached to their ideas, and that, somehow, questioning an idea is felt to be questioning the person in some way, but that is not what is happening. I happen to think it's extremely cool that people post suggestions, and that MJZ in particular posted this one.
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Okay, I've been avoiding this for a while, but Gulnyr's post did make me see something I want added. Its already been said before but I do want to back it up.
"...is that Previously Trained Fighter > Brand New Untrained Fighter"
But aren't there 1st level creation feats that add a bit to the character to portray this?
Artist
Blooded
Bullheaded
Courteous Magocracy
Luck of Heroes
Silver Palm
Snake Blood
Strong Soul
These are all feats that portray something that could have been prior learning. NWN2 also has a way of doing this with character backgrounds that add specific things to the character while taking other things away.
This brings me to the point posted here before: A feat, that can be taken at first level (or maybe any level, not to discriminate)
Favored Craft (_____): Which either, as said, gives +1 or so, or +5% to all rolls in that craft.
I do think though that the craft should only be allowed to be taken in one craft. Though I guess if people want to make a purely crafting character they can take as many as they want. Though another fine point, I don't think you should be able to take it with the Fighter specific feat levels. Alright, Im done now. ;)
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But aren't there 1st level creation feats that add a bit to the character to portray this? ... These are all feats that portray something that could have been prior learning.
That's true, and it's a good point. I would counter, though, by saying that every feat taken at first level defaults to being prior learning. As such, a Fighter with a background as a 20-year veteran guard and a Fighter with a background as a boy suddenly thrust into the world both have the potential to be identical stat-wise, skill-wise, and feat-wise. The background suggests the former should be "better," but the mechanics of the rules make them more or less the same.
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After some further thought on the matter (and I believe this has come up before), it's interesting that no one in this thread has suggested a feat that can be taken sometime after character creation which would boost one's ability (i.e. +1 to rolls or +5% chance of success) in a particular craft). I'm not sure if this is an oversight or more of a desire to not impact a character's build by devoting feats to crafting. Though if you think about it, those who are advocating the idea of a master crafter shouldn't mind so much sacrificing a few combat feats to make themselves better crafters.
If a feet like that had existed, I would probably have taken it or at least realy concidered it a viable option.
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That's true, and it's a good point. I would counter, though, by saying that every feat taken at first level defaults to being prior learning. As such, a Fighter with a background as a 20-year veteran guard and a Fighter with a background as a boy suddenly thrust into the world both have the potential to be identical stat-wise, skill-wise, and feat-wise. The background suggests the former should be "better," but the mechanics of the rules make them more or less the same.
Then it all comes down to how they are roleplayed.
Should it be done properly - the veteran guard would be more confident and so forth so forth.
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But aren't there 1st level creation feats that add a bit to the character to portray this?
Artist
Blooded
Bullheaded
Courteous Magocracy
Luck of Heroes
Silver Palm
Snake Blood
Strong Soul
As has been argued, I'd point out that ANY feat taken at first level could be treated as "prior knowledge". Why does the cleric know how to use martial weapons? Because he trained in them during his initiation into the church. Why does that rogue, there, know how to use heavy armour? Perhaps he grew up with an armoursmith father, who taught him how to wear the stuff. I would also argue that the abilities granted by the crafting system are not your run-of-the-mill abilities; anyone can pick up a needle and thread and fix a tear, or even put together simple clothes, but not make a fancy ball gown, or even a cloak worthy of an adventurer. Adventurers demand (and wear/use) high-quality items. That being said, I was unfamiliar with how simple it would be to interface a feat with the CNR system, so with that in mind, I'm totally in favour of:
Favored Craft (_____): Which either, as said, gives +1 or so, or +5% to all rolls in that craft.
I do think though that the craft should only be allowed to be taken in one craft. Though I guess if people want to make a purely crafting character they can take as many as they want. Though another fine point, I don't think you should be able to take it with the Fighter specific feat levels. Alright, Im done now. ;)
I'm all for allowing people to burn feats for crafting advantage. A +1 to rolls would make sense from having some initial training - and would be about the same as Weapon Focus after having trained with a decent swordsman in your youth.
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Actually, I was just crafting right now when the thought came to me.
Rolls and such are also based off of your stats. Strength, dexterity, etc. If you want to roleplay being better at certain things, raise those certain stats so, technically, you'd be getting better chances at succeeding in that craft. Just an easier, non-feat way to do it...That virtually anyone under level 40 can partake in :)
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Yeah, definitely, that helps characters have crafts associated with their class. You don't see too many wizards lugging around dozens of ingots to forge armor, for example. :P
And you can't make potions of healing at all unless you can cast healing spells, etc. When you cast buffs that raise both governing attributes 1d4+1, it's usually a 5-10% increase, which is always nice. But that's still regardless of which craft, and all. It's not exactly 'favoured.'
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Levels in D&D terms symbolises how much time your character has spent doing a specific thing, and how good he does that. A guard that has been in duty for 20 years are most probably a much more skilled swordsman than the 18-years-old "boy" seeking adventures, yes. But, the guard in question would obviously not be starting at level 1 then (maybe... 5 instead?). This is why I would like to suggest for anyone creating a new character not to give him/her so extremly much "training from the past".
LynnJuniper, what those level 1 feats shows is more about what your character is born with and/or good at during "most of his life prior to this". It covers the span of his birth and his youth, to the "present day" which is the reason they remain as level 1 feats: You cannot "train" to become like that. You simply "are" that!
I'm against all sort of characters starting with extra levels, extra GPs, extra feats, extra items, extra... whatever! In my world, you have to make some sacrifices to become good at one thing. Balance, as it is called. :)
So, thumbs up for a feat giving 5% extra success chance (combat feats? or craft feats? your choice!), thumbs down for letting people start with a fixed amount of crafting XP.
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A feat does seem like the simplest way of implementing an addition like this. It would also be fair to the thousands of existing characters, they could take it on level up, too.
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Well, it would be truly truly fair if the extra 5% towards success counted against XP earned on success, as well. *chuckles evilly*
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Well, it would be truly truly fair if the extra 5% towards success counted against XP earned on success, as well. *chuckles evilly*
Actually, it does. When you're better at a recipe, you get less XP for it. When the recipe is trivial to do, you get nothing.
Well, except for a finished product.:)
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And you can't make potions of healing at all unless you can cast healing spells
Alchemy my friend, Alchemy.
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I'm for the lvl 1 only feats for crafting. Make more sense I think....
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Then it all comes down to how they are roleplayed.
Should it be done properly - the veteran guard would be more confident and so forth so forth.
Thanked, Agreed, and restated for highlighting purposes.
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I'm for the lvl 1 only feats for crafting. Make more sense I think....
But not possible for the reasons stated...
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Heh, I think we debated the mush out of this topic :)
From what Dorg says though, it's impossible... Although it is a nice idea. It really is.
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Heh, I think we debated the mush out of this topic :)
From what Dorg says though, it's impossible... Although it is a nice idea. It really is.
Don't mis-quote me.... the idea is not impossible. The level 1 feat is, however :)
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What are the chances of a craft focus feat being added and with a list like the skill and weapon focus feats? of course each craft would be a separate feat and would only give a +1 to the die roll.
Just wondering, 'cause I like the idea.
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Sorry if my post offended anyone. I realize I'm a little late, but I had another one of those "wake up and see the glares" afternoons so late it is.
Gulnyr, Dorg, and myself all suffer from the "matter-of-fact" and "clarification" bug, also known as the Wet-Blanket Syndrome, which is commonly confused with the I-Hate-You-And-Your-Stupid-Idea Plague. I don't think I've ever seen extreme hostility from either of them, just misunderstood honesty. I think I've been outright hostile one time in the entire time I've been here, and I left the post there and took a deep breath and explained why I had said everything below it and apologized. It happens.
Not to speak for either of them, but as far as I can read, each of us were only pointing out the problems with the implementation in the original example. I also explained in my post that a free bonus with no cost to the character was a problem, and never going to happen, and expressed my discomfort with the fact that mass-producing crafters may already be masters in many crafts AND still high level characters, because it costs nothing but time. No feats, no skills... just "do you have the time to sink into gathering the resources." In cases of groups, often the resources are there already...and most of the implementations I thought of for this just seemed to help that along, which is kind of depressing. Not trying to be hostile...just call it as I see it.
If everyone who knew why it wasn't going to work as stated were silent, all you would have are "oh that's a good idea!" "nice!" "perfect!" which are good for the ego*, but frustrating when everyone seems to agree but... nothing ever happens. I like to express my doubts up front, and try to find better solutions.
I considered the original post, because I've thought of the same thing before, and could not find any implementations of the idea that did not make me cringe. Starting at higher level, hard and unlikely. Focus feat at any time, cringe for me because you can take it with multiple crafts and after only a day in the smithy, when the original point was to represent prior extensive training. Background feat, ideal in my opinion but not feasible unless a new method of creating characters is implemented (seriously doubt it.)
If I thought it was stupid and just to gain free stuff, I wouldn't have bothered posting or giving an example of how I would've liked to do it, were it possible.
To risk further honesty, I'm ambivalent at best when it comes to the current crafting system, so when I look at new bonuses to be added to it, there is some difficulty for me in trying to find a happy medium, and I'm not even the one responsible for it.
The comparisons weren't really that ridiculous, but it's a little late to go back and explain everything when it's mostly been covered, heh.
*For the sake of clarification, please note that I am not suggesting anyone here wishes only praise for the sake of their ego; I am aware the point was to discuss. I was just stating the fact that it IS good for the ego, but ultimately disappointing if the problems weren't brought up.