The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: havoc on March 25, 2007, 02:50:14 PM
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I have to admit I love the new design for the game. Its interesting and exciting. I do also have to say I am beyond frustrated. I spend more time dead then anything else. I cant even get to most low level crafting items. Now you cant even craft while your dead. I don't have the luxury of getting into a group, because I don't have control over how long I can play. I loved this server because I could pop in and pop out and do my crafting and enjoy it. Now.... I just don't have a clue what to do.
I just think you forgot to plan for those of us who by the dictates of RL must spend most of our game time alone.
I don't want to find another server to play on. I like the people here. I like the world and I love the crafting. Its the main appeal of this world. I just wish it were fun to play again.
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I'm really sorry to hear this, as I've talked to you about this In Game. Its always nice to see your PC in game. I wish I could help you find Layo as much fun as it was before V3, but... I hope you can solve your dilemma. Would hate to see Sharhar go bye-bye =)
Feel free, however, to find me ingame if your around Vehl, or Hempstead, I can go help you collect things like sand and clay for tinkering. They are safe to get.
anyway, I hope I get to see you ingame still. Goodluck.
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Sorry to hear that havoc. Are the encounters too difficult for low level characters? (level 1-6ish or so)? I am not at all happy to hear that things have gotten difficult and that people are not able to play...
but I also request that you take a look around and give it a chance. We had a lot of people when we went from V1 to V2 because of the "difficulty", of which we fixed eventually--it does take time though.
One of my stipulations and major requests for V3 was to allow players to travel alone (easier at least) on the topside of things (except for where cnr is located), more difficult in caves and very difficult in dungeons. If we are still forcing players to travel in parties at lower levels on the topside (and non-cnr) areas (and within reason mind you) then we have more balancing to do.
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I would add to what Leanthar is saying by stating that if there are areas which seem to be grossly out of shape, bring them to our attention rather than suffering in silence until the frustration level gets too high.
One last thing: the old places that were closer to Hlint will have gotten more difficult simply because that is no longer a starting area. Rather, look at those areas nearby Port Hempstead and Fort Vehl to see if they are in fact more in line with how things were around Hlint in V2.
Some areas are the way they are for a reason, but for those that are too easy/hard, constructive feedback is our best means of finding and fixing such things.
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Sorry to hear your another victim of V3 , while i have tried to point this out to staff before. They seemed obsessed with throwing up in my face my apparent famous solo haven run. Never stopping to ask what i did with all this CNR i supposedly collected. The truth is known by many players like your self whom, because of real life had not the time to RP for hours to form a group, to do some gathering and crafting.
The fact the starter server, and it's purpose as were a character can begin to develop and grow before tackling the more difficult servers (central and east) is lost in the pursuit of the demanded RP of the server. While the fact that higher level characters must now escort lower level characters to obtain CNR that before could be gathered by a small lower level group. Thus further impeding on their time to RP with characters more their level is again lost.
I wish you had been here for V2 as the time required to get a character to a level were they could if forced by the demands of real life or self imposed time to play, could after a few sessions gather CNR with a small (2-3) group. The benches in Hlint were a known meeting place, and one could quickly meet and form such groups.
The V3 while still young and many have yet to adjust to it's complexities, the sad fact of popping in and doing a little crafting to relax after a hard day in RL is a thing of the past, and unless staff is moved by those of you that are affected i fear the shining star of PW's that Layo once was will become lost among the myriad of other servers that stand empty and devoid of the chance to enjoy the interaction that made layo the place i found and loved, The people whom before had time to stop and help, not say Hi as they rush to help a friends new character gather green stone, which at level 4 or 5 they should be able to gather themselves.
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Havoc, thanks for your post, sorry to hear that, if you address Leanthar's questions, we can look and see what we can do.
Praylor,
About this comment:
The V3 while still young and many have yet to adjust to it's complexities, the sad fact of popping in and doing a little crafting to relax after a hard day in RL is a thing of the past, and unless staff is moved by those of you that are affected
did you even read Leanthar and Dorganath's posts?
And as for your pointing it out to staff, I don't see any Bug Reports or Fixed Bugs started by you addressing this, so if you have issues with certain areas, post them there so that we can look at it instead of unconstructive posts like the above.
Thank you.
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You and I are kind of in the same boat, havoc. The problem I'm having doesn't stem from being able to gather CNR though. Since V3 was released and the hub for role-playing was changed I've found myself no where to go for role-playing anymore while staying in-character. I've never had much luck getting into groups in the past I still at least was able to head somewhere to role-play, and now the changes brought in by V3 my luck getting into parties is basically the same, but my ability to role-play has went away as well... and let me tell you sitting alone with no one to role-play with for hours is very boring. I've been very frustrated about this myself; so much that I haven't logged in and played for a few weeks.
I hope things work out for you, and not end up like me and stop playing..
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One surface area (directly adjacent to Vehl) where neither my Level 5 nor Level 9 PCs feels safe is the road through the mercenaries which leads to the Gloomwood. Going there does not seem to cause a problem, but despite trying to stay strictly on the road on the way back to Vehl, the mercenaries more often than not notice you and follow you through the AT (often long after you think you've made it through safely). Not sure if having an unsafe road is the intention there, but my poor Aeridinite cleric has given up clearing the Gloomwood of undead after having gotten caught and killed there twice. It's a little frustrating, since there's not many places a lower-level Aeridinite can RP their main clerical purpose in life, and the Gloomwood seems as if it should be a nice stepping stone between the Vehl crypts and the much harder crypts of Krandor and Storans.
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*shakes head sadly at Praylor* *looks for bug reports by Praylor* Right...I will leave it at that.
@havoc, thank you for posting this. We need to watch for these sort of balancing issues as they are very important to having fun. Please do post the specific areas that are not right in the bug reports as it will help us find things specifically and fix them.
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@kirbiana, no...roads are meant to be safe so long as people haven't dragged creatures to it (not much we can do about that)...But roads are supposed to be safe, that is important to allowing traveling and traveling allows grouping (finding) of parties.
No starting area or any area within 5-6 areas of a starting area should be so difficult that it is not workable by a party (4+) of levels 5 or less or soloable by a well built character of level 8 or less. And the intention is to allow soloable situations on the topside of the world (not caves/dungeons) in many of the areas--but within reason and at the appropriate level.
The goal is to turn the areas around fort vehl and port hempstead to be very much like what Hlint used to be (in difficulty)--and in some of the areas EASIER than it was....if that is not the case I need to see some bug reports please.
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Everyone is still adjusting, both players and developers. To judge concepts because of imperfect executions is hasty. Developers are still fixing spawns or looking at areas, players are still settling into looking for new places instead of expecting old ones to be as they were, and the middle point between the two starting areas is still getting tweaked for people to easily run into.
I do think it would help if the staff did not contradict itself regarding whether or not things are intended for soloing or grouping, when it comes to offering clarity to players.
I just think there is a lot of freaking out and little keeping to the idea that things are still being worked on; the release was not a final 'now we are done, yay!' release, but rather a foundation in a long series rollout.
I dunno about the not finding anyone to RP with. I sat for hours in Hlint. It was almost empty when I was on. I realize it was central and that other times there were many people going in and out, but more often than not it was a ghost town when I was there. I have no doubt whatsoever that the same is the case in the new ones, but in my relatively low playing time I've run into large groups of people hanging out in both starting locations as well as smaller groups at the crossroads between them.
Just post places that are funky; despite arguments that start out over HOW hard something is, or the fact that a large number of the complaints are based on the mistaken assumptions about the intended level range (Haven) or if it's meant to be a main CNR location (Haven, Red Lights), reports are not ignored and still people have to go back and look at them, despite the attitude with which many are brought to attention.
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One surface area (directly adjacent to Vehl) where neither my Level 5 nor Level 9 PCs feels safe is the road through the mercenaries which leads to the Gloomwood. Going there does not seem to cause a problem, but despite trying to stay strictly on the road on the way back to Vehl, the mercenaries more often than not notice you and follow you through the AT (often long after you think you've made it through safely). Not sure if having an unsafe road is the intention there, but my poor Aeridinite cleric has given up clearing the Gloomwood of undead after having gotten caught and killed there twice. It's a little frustrating, since there's not many places a lower-level Aeridinite can RP their main clerical purpose in life, and the Gloomwood seems as if it should be a nice stepping stone between the Vehl crypts and the much harder crypts of Krandor and Storans.
I actually hunted glood wood zombies with a lvl 2-4 justr fine with a ranged weapons and i never attracted teh Merc's attention. This may have been prior too teh 1st V3 fix updatet though. howevr i never ventured much past teh road unless i was in stealth mode.
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I dunno about the not finding anyone to RP with. I sat for hours in Hlint. It was almost empty when I was on. I realize it was central and that other times there were many people going in and out, but more often than not it was a ghost town when I was there. I have no doubt whatsoever that the same is the case in the new ones, but in my relatively low playing time I've run into large groups of people hanging out in both starting locations as well as smaller groups at the crossroads between them.
It's not that, Acacea. From an role-playing prospective my PC avoids both Port Hempstead and Vehl. My PC would only go there if she had to, and as a last resort. She would not sit around inside either town at all. That's why I said in-character. I know if I go out-of-character that I easily could find people to role-play with.
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Just wanted to echo ShiffDrgnhrt's comment, feel free to stop my character IG anytime. I know the feeling about popping in for a spot of CNR, it's been one of the best things about this server for me, I'd rather be known as an alchemist or tailor or what have you, than be known as a powerful mage.
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It's not that, Acacea. From an role-playing prospective my PC avoids both Port Hempstead and Vehl. My PC would only go there if she had to, and as a last resort. She would not sit around inside either town at all. That's why I said in-character. I know if I go out-of-character that I easily could find people to role-play with.
Now here's a question: If Tornah would avoid those cities, why wouldn't she avoid Hlint, too? ;)
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V3 is tougher. One problem that is happening to me is that I visit an area (normally with a group as I don't solo), we get pummeled, and that colors my perception both IC and out of it for many RL days. The spawns/difficulty of several areas have been altered (I think) but there's no way I'm going back to check this out.
Crafting was never easy, in my opinion, and each CNR resource had its class that could get it. Now my perception is that only those that can invis can gather at lower levels.
While these are my current perceptions, I also have no doubt things will begin to become "easier" as time goes on and 1) the spawns get adjusted, and probably more important 2) the players figure out how to handle them.
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Ioskeha - Try the Shack in the crossroads between the two towns. It's not within a cobbled city, just a rural place between them where the guides are supposed to be hired, for hanging out near the stream and campfire and other stuff. Should probably be made a safe rest area. It's still getting settled at the moment I think. I actually think it might as well just be made an actual crossroads that people walk through, rather than hidden away, or have a sign added and the guide lantern be moved outside the area to the place where you turn to get there, so you can see if its lit before going there and seeing for yourself, hehe. But the RP reasons you speak of should be eased there.
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Ok I did not mean to start this huge debate. I was simply frustrated that once again I can not play for the little while I had because I was once agian dead and unable to return to my grave site, and that while before if I ended up dead I could at least craft with what I had in my pack.
I am slow to adjust to huge changes. I loved Hlint area because after 3 years I knew where it was safe and where it wasnt and I had developed a routine that I enjoyed allowing me to progress in small steps and maybe happen into a group to go when i had those rare chances to be online for more than an hour.
I will say that I play a level 9 ranger who is strong for a ranger and has a complex and off center point of view. There is also the fact that rangers are not fighters and like today ... in the Gulf of Bagira the creatures say they are easy.... they are not....
RP and staying true to it is difficult when the world suddenly shifts around you. I have no choice but to go to Port Hamptsed (or what ever its new name is) even though I tended to avoid it before. Hlint was her home and she is afraid of the world at large. She had to suddenly get over her fear of boating because the treants in the forest kept killing her if she took the land route. Its the only crafting hall I can get to so its the only one I can use.
This sounds so petty and third grade whiner. But you cant fix whats wrong if you dont know whats wrong.
these are my notes to myself to learn the new areas and to find what i need and where i can and should not go. THESE ARE ONLY MY OPINIONS and are not a critism or disrespect to anyone..... just to make sure you understood.
from my notes....
Ire Mtns gnolls too tough for me to handle alone.
Ire Mtns 2 Gnolls sneak past them but do not engage.
Path to Ire Mtns bug bear heros..one at a time ... maybe..
worgs lions yes...too bad i cant work lion hide yet...
hepstead fields safe nothing there... cotton. (sometimes)
dirty claw Kobolds great one to one... no CRN
Dapple green Outskirts wolf deer bandit archer... safe
Dapple green II mercenary... maybe.. no more then three
Fort Vehl outskirts... merenary cougar... no more then three is safe. will be nice when i can make cougar leather...
gloom woods safe area..no CRN..ok xp...
deep gloom woods harder but still ok no crn
brech mtns amethyst golom... yeti stragler... brech mtn lacky.... thank goodness for high move silent... no way to survive if seen.
Palden lake safe lots of crn take boat to craft house.
white horn forest usually safe some crn
white horn forest II needed CRN .... Treant .... do not go there.
White horn forest -unicorn.. nothing of note.
goblin cave.. stay away buy salt instead.
those are the areas I have explored and written about so far. I again apologize for turning this into a nag and complain thread. It was not my intention.
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*shakes head sadly at Praylor* *looks for bug reports by Praylor* Right...I will leave it at that.
@havoc, thank you for posting this. We need to watch for these sort of balancing issues as they are very important to having fun. Please do post the specific areas that are not right in the bug reports as it will help us find things specifically and fix them.
I do not see this as a bug... its simply ... a case of my character is not strong enough to survive in the new world. I built her to suit me, and like many things in reality... its a rough world out there...
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I built her to suit me, and like many things in reality... its a rough world out there...
It is, and to a degree, I share this sentiment, as my own character had trouble with places on West in V2 even past 20th level. He doesn't have the best stats, he's not built for power, he doesn't have the fanciest equipment, but he's interesting, flaws and all. And so perhaps that limits him in some degree, but it also presents opportunities.
Making any grand changes like this, no matter how well we might plan, will always have its greatest test when it's live. Balancing is a process, just as putting something on a scale moves back and forth a bit before settling, so goes the process of balancing things.
If certain areas are vastly too hard (or too easy) for the location and/or intent, we need to know about these areas. Perhaps you're unsure, and that's fine, but if they don't get our attention, they may not be fixed if warranted.
As I said previously, if something seems off, bring it up. At least then you know one way or the other, and perhaps you'll help to make things better for all.
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"....I actually think it might as well just be made an actual crossroads that people walk through, rather than hidden away, or have a sign added and the guide lantern be moved outside the area to the place where you turn to get there, so you can see if its lit before going there and seeing for yourself, hehe. But the RP reasons you speak of should be eased there....."
I agree. We should put it right on the road in one of the existing areas (where there is no combat) or stretch the road out and put it in there. Either way, it does better to be on the main road an area to one side of it.
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I have sat at Stormcrest for hours in the days since it was added and seen not a soul come by or seen people rush in ..check things out for CNR and things to kill.. see none and leave.
Are members supposed to be able to light the lantern that says someone is available to guide?
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Ioskeha - Try the Shack in the crossroads between the two towns. It's not within a cobbled city, just a rural place between them where the guides are supposed to be hired, for hanging out near the stream and campfire and other stuff. Should probably be made a safe rest area. It's still getting settled at the moment I think. I actually think it might as well just be made an actual crossroads that people walk through, rather than hidden away, or have a sign added and the guide lantern be moved outside the area to the place where you turn to get there, so you can see if its lit before going there and seeing for yourself, hehe. But the RP reasons you speak of should be eased there.
Oh, cool! Thanks. Today was my first time playing in over three weeks, so I didn't know that people were starting to gather there. Someone told me that they had seen people there once before. When I asked about it this person didn't know if it was just a one time thing or not.
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What shack? And what guides? Im interested.... What are you talking about?
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Initial Post (http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/114063-stormcrest-guides-pre-launch-announcement.html)
What shack? And what guides? Im interested.... What are you talking about?
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@twidget658
".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."
Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.
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I never that there was a shack there. I will have to check it out.
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It was put in with the last update (3.00.3)
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Hello everyone reading this forum thread.
Most of you know me, well probably all of you.
I have either helped you in some way or just sat around and listened, giving advice where appropriate and even talking some of you out of going somewhere you shouldn't.
I know at least half of all the characters that play on layonara in character and at least 1/4 of you OOC.
I play more hours than any of you have time for and I write very little of what I see.
Mostly because I see way more than I care to write about.
Some days you will see me playing, you will log off and do your daily things... and low and behold when you wake up from your sleep... that's right i'm still playing... I think my longest game day was close to 30 hours.
I play a variety of characters, a drow wizard of level 15, a human monk of level 7, and a wemic druid of level 8.
I also build my own modules, write my own scripts and program in more languages than i have fingers to count, and I DM my own servers along with setting up the operating systems and everything else on the machines.
I can truely see the issue from all angles... players... DM's... server admins, scripters, testers, writers, designers.... did i miss anything here?
Personally I got bored with NWN 3 months after i bought and beat the single player version of the game, as i had tore apart every aspect of the game and toolset and written many modules on my own with guides i found all over.
Layonara was found by a real life friend of mine and he got me to play again. We always had fun with the pen and paper version of D&D i gave it a shot. After a few months of playing i found i enjoyed the RP experience as much as the bash em slash em unreal 2004 servers i run.
I played a lot of V2 and enjoyed it. Then came V3 and the tilesets were impressive and the new sounds great to hear.
Well lets get to the point now that you all know a little bit more about me.
V3 has it's issues as well as bugs and the game has it's own problems as well... I hear complaining and complimenting both and of course i do both as well...
It's a role play server indeed but after playing on other servers of the same type I find that layonara is more of a "forced RP" server than a "stressed RP" server.. I see more "fear of the DM's " than i do anything else.
On the other servers i've explored the RP is stressed but not enforced and I see more RP and players taking their time to actually RP than I do on Layonara. This concerns me as Layonara has depth and some of those do not... sure their npc's are more active... (changing of the guard from day and night, night and day spawns blah blah blah) but otherwise the only interesting things there are the other people RP-ing.
Also I see less people worrying about how long their character will last (as there is no permanent death system but other things to discourage stupidity) and less rushing out to kill kill kill with no good reason...
Yes in V3 soloing or even grouping up to accomplish a goal has become almost impossible for a level 1-6 character... and greed has taken over and co-operation seems to have left. Meaningless deaths are all around and good characters have died in vain.
I realize this is a new version and there are bugs... but losing a soul strand to a bug or a bad spawn and trying to prove this is aggravating to say the least. Does anyone test these areas before putting them on the server? and how are they tested... to me (krandor crypts being a huge example) they seem very untested when put out on the server, as i know what it takes to test an area.
As far as role playing durring combat, or in between battles... yeah right!
you try it...
I play a mage and i've heard people say well the clerics can talk durring battle or the mages have time... or quickslot something and use it..
Well my friend you have obviously never played a mage or cleric.
yes i have 36 quickslots... and every one of them taken with a spell wand or helmet of armor 2... mages are one of the hardest things to play on layonara.. i have one quickslot (that i'd rather use for a spell) that is made for passing people in a hurry *Waves and Smiles* and it's a waste of a quickslot
when the lag hits you in the heat of battle and your fighters are all dying and your cleric is typing "Die in the name if Ilsare" and you fall over dead cause she tried to say that and you get soul strand #8 then you tell me that clerics have time... and if they quickslotted it and had to use the radial menu to heal you and missed and got the monster you were fighting ... well enough said...
my point... there are lots of things i would do differently here... though my opinions probably mean nothing...
I'll give the server time to even itself out but because of the CNR issues and DM's scolding higher level characters (leaving out dm names here) for helping lower levels get what they need I'll be playing elsewhere till i see some kind of compromize (hint hint no soul mother till areas are perfected blah blah blah)
'nough said
Chains
Zergon Yxirvain
Slain Tulrar
Rizzir
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I'm gonna miss you Dude....
I just wanna say that I'm really disheartened to hear some of my fellow players, especial those that I enjoy RPing with, have found Layo to not be as much fun as it has been for them. I encourage them to keep some Faith for Layo with them, but I understand the problems they mentioned. I love Role Playing and I'd hate to have a few of my favorite RPers leave due to something stupid in game.
Either way goodluck man. Send me a line some time. My email is in m profile.
Peace
<3 Shiff;)
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Havoc, I can sypathize to your viewpoint. I think some things are easier (eg getting aloe) and many things are more difficult (eg. getting salt). People keep saying everyone should explore, find new places for CNR, etc., but personally I'm somewhat scared to explore new places, because of some of the dangerous spawns I've encountered in areas that used to be fairly safe. I really don't envy the team here, who are expected to be able to balance making things challenging, but still fun for less powerfully built characters The DMs here are asking us to help them by submitting bug reports, but quite frankly, who am I to say "place x is a bug because it is too hard for my character." With all the stickies in the bug forum, it's a little intimidating to post something like that, especially because it seems like we're critisizing the team, who have done so much work on this release. Having said that, my level 9 definately has trouble with some areas close to the two new starting areas.
Perhaps it would be better to have a "balancing issues" section of the forum, to allow players to openly say IMHO, area x is too difficult, without generating some of the negativity I've seen whenever someone has tryed to bring this up thus far, and without having the severity of labeling something a bug.
Edit: (sorry if this is a bit rambling, it's late and I'm tired)
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Zergon,
Clover wil be sad to hear that. She was looking forward to learning some new things from you. You were always kind to her and offered a helping hand too. I really enjoyed the few times we hung out. I hope your not gone for long.
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Havoc, I can sypathize to your viewpoint. I think some things are easier (eg getting aloe) and many things are more difficult (eg. getting salt). People keep saying everyone should explore, find new places for CNR, etc., but personally I'm somewhat scared to explore new places, because of some of the dangerous spawns I've encountered in areas that used to be fairly safe. I really don't envy the team here, who are expected to be able to balance making things challenging, but still fun for less powerfully built characters The DMs here are asking us to help them by submitting bug reports, but quite frankly, who am I to say "place x is a bug because it is too hard for my character." With all the stickies in the bug forum, it's a little intimidating to post something like that, especially because it seems like we're critisizing the team, who have done so much work on this release. Having said that, my level 9 definately has trouble with some areas close to the two new starting areas.
Perhaps it would be better to have a "balancing issues" section of the forum, to allow players to openly say IMHO, area x is too difficult, without generating some of the negativity I've seen whenever someone has tryed to bring this up thus far, and without having the severity of labeling something a bug.
Edit: (sorry if this is a bit rambling, it's late and I'm tired)
Very well said.
Thank you
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I'm not going anywhere I'll still pop on layo and RP, I am just giving the team time to work out the issues that are causing problems.
Zergon got his 8th soul strand to an invisibility bug in the game, my best and favorite character. The way things are going now it wouldn't be a good idea to play him much as things could turn for the worse.
Trying to play my other characters is far more challenging as both are low level and can't really help much due to CNR issues.
Look forward to RP-ing with you all, just not as adventurous.
Zergon
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@twidget658
".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."
Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.
My previous post dissappeared completely without a trace. But anyway, PM sent.
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I'm sorry to hear you are dissatisfied. If I may take a few moments to respond to your comments and perhaps you can consider them as you consider whether or not to continue spending time here.
It's a role play server indeed but after playing on other servers of the same type I find that layonara is more of a "forced RP" server than a "stressed RP" server.. I see more "fear of the DM's " than i do anything else.
On the other servers i've explored the RP is stressed but not enforced and I see more RP and players taking their time to actually RP than I do on Layonara. This concerns me as Layonara has depth and some of those do not... sure their npc's are more active... (changing of the guard from day and night, night and day spawns blah blah blah) but otherwise the only interesting things there are the other people RP-ing.
I'm not sure what is meant by the "forced" vs. "stressed". Without going into a deep semantic discussion or detailed specifics, let me just put forth that the rules we have regarding RP (and I assume that is what you mean by "forced") were not always as strict as they are now, but their current state in most cases is the result of a few players taking things way too far. Some of that is a symptom of a growing player base. Some of it is a lack of maturity. When numerous warnings, both public and private were not sufficient to curb certain things which were not in keeping with the spirit of this world, we had to clamp down. Perhaps we will relax things again, but the community has to keep certain things in mind as we do. Just as some people hide behind PvP rules, so too do some take to stretching the umbrella of RP to cover as much as possible, and sometimes that goes too far.
Also I see less people worrying about how long their character will last (as there is no permanent death system but other things to discourage stupidity) and less rushing out to kill kill kill with no good reason...
This is valid, and while I understand a system of permanent death is not as appreciated by everyone, it is something that has been a part of this world for years now and it's known up-front. Overall, the system works pretty well in the capacity for which it is intended. Having said that, it would be interesting to hear what other systems to "discourage stupidity" have been used successfully.
Yes in V3 soloing or even grouping up to accomplish a goal has become almost impossible for a level 1-6 character... and greed has taken over and co-operation seems to have left. Meaningless deaths are all around and good characters have died in vain.
This cannot and should not be blamed on V3. There were plenty of avoidable and meaningless permanent deaths in V2 as well, many of which stemmed from a period of time where we suspended the current Soul Strand system. To be more specific, many players established a pattern of behavior that was reckless and dangerous knowing that there was no real risk. A week into the suspension of Soul Strand loss, I lost count of how many times people asked me to bring it all back.
Now, V3 has its warts and its growing pains surely, but it hasn't been in place even a month yet. I was not yet here at the start of V2, but I can say with complete certainty that how V2 was when I started and the V2 that was brought to a close at the end of February were two very, very different things. There were bugs, yes. The servers were far, far, far less stable than they are now. The point is, V3 will improve, and it will do so with constructive feedback from the community. That is very much a key element to Layonara's constantly evolving state. I don't think that can be stressed enough.
I realize this is a new version and there are bugs... but losing a soul strand to a bug or a bad spawn and trying to prove this is aggravating to say the least.
OK, as the guy who handles these requests, I have both stated and followed through with a degree of leniency due to losses that are the result of bugs in V3. For a time, I even considered suspending the loss of Soul Strands during this introductory period so that people would not be afraid to help us test, but the loss rate and reporting of such did not seem to warrant it. So please, do not make assumptions that we don't care about bugs or losses due to bugs. In fact, even in the standard policies, losses due to bugs are valid reasons for reimbursement.
I will, however, contribute one other piece of information. The policies for reimbursements used to be more relaxed, but again, because they were abused and their limits pushed by people, we had to tighten them down and establish some consistent standards which I do try very hard to maintain.
Does anyone test these areas before putting them on the server? and how are they tested... to me (krandor crypts being a huge example) they seem very untested when put out on the server, as i know what it takes to test an area.
Yes, they are tested...and which Krandor crypts do you mean? Because they were just updated within the last week. The previous Krandor Crypts were still the same from V2. The V3 version was reviewed by our lead balancer and I tested them myself up until the point where my test character could not get past a door that required somone to pick the lock. The V2 version often had a "bring a cleric" stigma to it, but that was by design.
If it was V3, we would like to know specific things about it, rather than simply "seems untested". This is very vague and does not do much to improve things for anyone, which is ultimately the goal.
And on testing. As this is a volunteer effort, and as our player-base is extremely diverse with characters to match, it simply is not practical to test things out in the variety of combinations that we have to support in the time which we have available. We couldn't hope to test in a month what our players could test in less than a single week. You should understand this by your background. And so, we make our best efforts based on experience and whatever testing we can manage, then we observe how it works in a live setting. If things need to be changed, they are.
We cannot currently do any better than that.
my point... there are lots of things i would do differently here... though my opinions probably mean nothing...
This is absolutely untrue. In fact, I'd like to hear more detail about what people do not think is quite right about this world. I hear about so many people who apparently hold back their opinons and valid observations. There's absolutely nothing wrong with constructive input from anyone, whether they are a brand new player or a long-time veteran. I see more possibilities in your message here, but it's pretty low on details. We need those details if things are to improve.
Having said that, we do not act on or implement all suggestions we receive, but that does not mean they are ignored, simply that they may not be a proper fit for Layonara or that we have not been able to make them happen yet. But we have suggestion and discussion forums here for a reason, and the list of community-suggested enhancements to the world is a very long list indeed.
I'll give the server time to even itself out but because of the CNR issues and DM's scolding higher level characters (leaving out dm names here) for helping lower levels get what they need I'll be playing elsewhere till i see some kind of compromize (hint hint no soul mother till areas are perfected blah blah blah)
OK, several things here:
1) I hope you do keep the world in mind, and I don't mind saying that we are already working on a review of where CNR is, where it should be and what is between the CNR and characters. This is a work-in-progress and it is happening. Balance is a process.
2) On GM's "scolding" higher level players for helping lower-level players...what I think both parties need to understand here is that again, there is a very high potential (and yes, history) of abuse of the line between justifyable RP and XP dragging. This has happened way too much over the years and we've heard tons of excuses about why it was thought to be OK. Higher-level characters helping lower-level ones is OK if done responsibly and with a mind for the spirit of the server. If said lower-level characters hang way back or flit around invisibly contributing little to nothing to the group, then that's not helping, that's dragging, and it's obvious. It's a fuzzy grey line, I agree, but it needs to be handled responsibly by all involved. On the chance that the "scolding" was a bit more, read on. Well, read on anyway. ;)
3) As I said, it was considered, and even approved, to shut off Soul Strand loss for a time while we test things out. So far, since V3 has been released, there have only been maybe 2 or 3 V3 bug-related requests of this nature and unless I am remembering incorrectly, they have been approved. Since the volume has been low, there has been no need to turn off the system, and I am continuing to handle them on a case-by-case basis and even being more lenient to the possiblity of bug-related losses during this time. We are not cruel, heartless or sadistic. We do understand the desire to not lose characters, and we have, in fact, resurrected at least one or more permanently dead characters who lost their 10th soul strand due to a situation that should not have occurred. And I am still willing to consider doing this in a controlled way if it seems logical to do so. So far, however, it does not based on what I am seeing.
Though you seem to have made your decision, and I do respect that, I hope at least if you read this you'll consider what has been said and perhaps it will dispel some assumptions, rumors or other negative perceptions. If not for you, then perhaps for someone else.
I do want to address one other point specifically:
I see more "fear of the DM's " than i do anything else.
This concerned me more than anything else you have said in this entire post. I'd like to know more about your perspective as to why people fear GMs. While I know that "us vs. them" idea is out there and has been out there, we do try to keep things as open and fair as possible, though we don't see everything, and if one or more GMs are acting inappropriately (as either their characters or as GMs) then such things need to be addressed. GMs have to maintain a higher adherence to the standards of this community, not a more relaxed one.
If you want to continue this via PMs, then I'm willing to hear what you have to say. If you do not feel comfortable communicating with me, then you can always send such information to Leanthar. If there are logs or screenshots or anything else that substantiates this stated fear then I would very much like to see what it is.
And to anyone else who may be reading this, if there are questions in your minds that perhaps lead to these fears, then I encourage you to use the "Ask a Gamemaster (http://www.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster)" forum, in case there are just unknowns that are leading to fears.
Alright, well it's very late for me now, and so I need to end this. Do consider what I have written and feel free to ask for more clarification.
I'd also encourage you, with your stated background, to consider applying for the Project Team when applications come back around. We can always use talented people who are willing to devote time and effort into making Layonara better.
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Zergon: One of the painful lessens that I have learned in life is that ultimatums only enrage people and make them feel disrespected. Time and time again the DM staff has asked for our patients with the V3 release. They have made enormous efforts to not only build V3, but also resolve the bugs just as quickly as they can. Need I remind you that no one is getting paid to do this work? Leanthar has stated over and over again that if areas are not balanced, that we should report them as bug reports and they will be reviewed and changed.
As far as the "DM's scolding higher level characters" issue... well that is a complex issue. Perhaps it would have been better for you to bring this subject up in a constructive manner on the forums or IRC. I am more to blame then the character in question. I asked him to help my character, and a couple of others get into a dangerous area to harvest a CNR that my character needed as a spell component. What ended up happening, is between point A and point B we kept running into other adventures that wanted to join up with us in the interest of having fun. The end result is that a bunch of characters who were not quite high enough level to be in the area we were in, ended up tagging along. I didn't suggest we should exclude anyone because I didn't think anyone was so low in level, and still don't, that they should be excluded from an outing on the West server. Also every character was very active, doing everything they possibly could to help with the encounters we faced.
Obviously the DMs that peeked in on us, saw what they felt to be a bad RP situation in progress. The high level character was pulled out of the party, and talked to by one or more DMs. Another option the DMs could have used would be to spawn some crazy monsters on us, that wiped out the entire party and brought the soul mother howling and screaming left and right. I think that pulling the high level character out and having a OOC conversation was a healthy way to deal with this situation and maintain a good vibe of all the players that were involved.
Zergon, I encourage you to re think what you are saying here, and make an apology to the people that work so hard, so that we can have so much fun playing a game.
AeonBlues
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...but the loss rate and reporting of such did not seem to warrant it.
So far, since V3 has been released, there have only been maybe 2 or 3 V3 bug-related requests of this nature and unless I am remembering incorrectly, they have been approved. Since the volume has been low, there has been no need to turn off the system, and I am continuing to handle them on a case-by-case basis and even being more lenient to the possiblity of bug-related losses during this time.
This concerned me more than anything else you have said in this entire post. I'd like to know more about your perspective as to why people fear GMs.
I think that the low volume of requests for SS reimbursements may stem from the "must have a GM/WL witness to even consider requesting" is twarting the requests. And then, that falls through at times. After seeing people get criticized for wasting the Team's time with requests that don't have a legitimate witness(es), people think several times before posting, if they ever do.
Second point, how do people know it is a reportable bug if it is a spawn? They may just think that it was ment to be and take their loss.
As far as fearing GM's...maybe fear is not the right word, but getting bashed in the forums publically tends to turn people off and have a sense of withdrawal and seperation from the GM's. When a GM comes across as "this is how it is and I don't care what people think" or the "don't like it, don't join" attitude, it makes people shy away from expressing their thoughts on it. And not just to the GM involved, but to all GM's. Some folks, I am sure, feel that if they dispute one GM, then they have just taken on the whole GM team.
My thoughts.
Edit: AeonBlue, I really don't think an apology is necessary for expressing himself. The post was not really demeanng, disrespectful or slamming on anyone, just some thoughs and comparisons from his past experiences. If everone had to say they were sorry for having an opinion, how would things get fixed? The mentality of not wanting to say anything because "the team is busy" or "they are not paid" is more harmful then beneficial. Feedback comes in many forms, but it is vital for improvements.
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Nice. Alot of good points and discussion here.
Im curious, why are people afraid of GM's? They are just people too you know. Like, er, you know human (Except for eightbit. I swear hes a cylon) . They get annoyed and frustrated with us as some do with them
When I play my level 20, I get invited into a party, I don't check who is what level, if someone asks me where is platinum, I go and show them. Or if they need help (if he is in one of his saner moments) he will help them. They way he is, he enjoys facing hordes and smashing them, he will check around to see if anyone needs a heal.
I've gotten yelled(well, told firmly) at that I should of known better than to drag so and so low level to an area on west, even when I wasnt the party leader, and was invited into the party and helping them find cnr. No biggie. Used to it, just shrug it off.
Oh, to the shack, I've went various times to it and it was empty, signs to it would be helpful.
Ok, thats it, I'm done ranting now :) Enjoy.
P.S: find hawk or jaldaric, good chance for rp and some excitement
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Zergon, I encourage you to re think what you are saying here, and make an apology to the people that work so hard, so that we can have so much fun playing a game.
I don't see why he should apologize. He posted his opinion of what he feels is wrong with Layo. It's his opinion; neither right or wrong, and we have to respect that.
This ties into what I want to reply to what Dorganath asked him. About people having a fear of the GMs. I can not speak for Zergon, but I will say why I hold things back. It's not that I only have a fear of the GMs, and I might say something that makes one of them angry and I get banned. It's also the community. The community is overly critical towards anyone that has a "negative" opinion of the the server. I'm not saying I do. There's a lot of things I really like about Layo, just as there are a few things I do not like as well. There has been a few times when I did not agree to something, and instead of saying so I just remained silent. Out of fear that the community would jump on my back.
Until people can feel safe about bringing their concerns about the server to these boards this fear will always be here.
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I agree with what twidget says.
I recently lost a whole ox full of CNR due to my NWN crashing and got denied reimbursment. Sure, I knew the rules for requesting reimbursements and hoped NWN crashing was a viable reason. But getting a "Nope, not acceptable, read the rules" sort of response didn't exactly cheer me up. Now I understand why rules are there and I'm not whining about my request, but sometimes, maybe by accident or because Team Members are just being quick about it, or maybe thats just how they are, how they respond sometimes comes off the wrong way and erks people.
I love this server, this community, and this world, and I accept the fact V3 is still in its infancy. I also believe giving ol' Soul Mum a vacation to the Bahamas would make for a happier (if more reckless) player base, but as Zerg pointed out their are other "Don't be Stupid, Stupid" systems out there. I like everyone else want to see my PCs, especially my Favorite one Shiff (gee I wonder why) reach lvl 20 like the next guy, and I did play recklessly at first due underestimating the beasties of Layonara, but I also know that if upon dying twice in a row (lets say within a given amount of time) I was gonna lose 5% or even 10% of my TOTAL Experience, I'd run in circles screaming from beasties if I was gonna die. That would be like "Hey! I just need 1k XP for lvl 20, Yay! *runs into a Umber Hulk Ambush* GET ME THE **** OUTTA HERE!" I want Zerg, and havoc, and any of the other people I enjoy RPing with so much to be able to get that CNR or go Slay giants with Friends and not have to worry about unfair spawns or impossible monsters guarding the CNR, but I also know it takes time for things to balance out, hence why its called "balancing"
I hate lossing an SS like the next guy, and I feel for Zerg because we started playing here around the same time and his #1 PC does have only 2 left (Why I donno but I do know each time sucked), but being that close to Perming would kill my love too. Hell if you guys went "Hey guys! Thanks for testing V3 for us. Everything should be nice and balanced now and as a reward for helping us get here, all PCs made before the V3 release are gonna get their SS's back!" I'd be like "OH YEAH! GO TEAM!" Now Don't even bother telling me its not gonna happen cause I know that (¤¤¤¤) But I gotta say, if I was in Zergs shoes I'd be loving you for giving me back all the SS's I lost due to bugs, bad spawns, and unbalanced CNR locals... Now I know that leaves a big loop hole open for people to take advantage of things, but hell, I know Shiff isn't getting his back. Both (although one I still kinda doubt) were my fault for attacking things he had no chance of killing. But some kind of compensation for things that are truely unfair would be nice for those of us who do fall into those holes.
I just wanted tah say all that. I hope it makes sense, and I hope I didn't offend any of the Team, L, or anyone else I could possilby insult/offend. I just want Layo to stay on top of that lil mountain that is "Persistant-Worldom". I don't like having to drag all the "King's Horses and All the Kings Men so lil ol Shiff can get his CNR Again" either, but I also love to Just RP...
Zerg, I'll look forward to your visits, as I think yer PCs (even the ones I can't understand) are all fun and cool.
With much <3 to the Layonaranites out there in Internet-Land,
Shiff, Latherian, Yukimura, & Nemo, Respectively
(AKA Me :p)
This is a Post-Posting PS: I like how da mn is censored but sucked isn't :D
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First off let me just say this...
1) I am not mad, disgruntled, or in any way upset about V3.
2) I am only stating things that I see or find true.
3) I am very to the point and abrasive to most with my opinions because of the words i choose, but that is not my intent.
4) Play as much as I do and you could write a 1000 page book on what you have seen on Layonara. This being why i try not to go into too much detail.
With that said
I'm sorry to hear you are dissatisfied. If I may take a few moments to respond to your comments and perhaps you can consider them as you consider whether or not to continue spending time here.
I will alway spend time on Layo it's my favorite server.
I'm not sure what is meant by the "forced" vs. "stressed". Without going into a deep semantic discussion or detailed specifics, let me just put forth that the rules we have regarding RP (and I assume that is what you mean by "forced") were not always as strict as they are now, but their current state in most cases is the result of a few players taking things way too far. Some of that is a symptom of a growing player base. Some of it is a lack of maturity. When numerous warnings, both public and private were not sufficient to curb certain things which were not in keeping with the spirit of this world, we had to clamp down. Perhaps we will relax things again, but the community has to keep certain things in mind as we do. Just as some people hide behind PvP rules, so too do some take to stretching the umbrella of RP to cover as much as possible, and sometimes that goes too far.
Forced vs. Stressed
My opinion, not fact, the way i see it (based on server jumping all hours of the night)
1) Forced:
A) I need to say something to the whole group that is out of character to help someone new or solve another issue.
Rather than typing a tell to each individual player i use the // and tell everyone in earshot and we all do this to communicate for a bit then go back to rp-ing..... Problem being... DM spawns hell on us killing some if not most... i believe everyone has seen this a time or two some not knowing what happened or why... some getting soul strands... to me... just unnecessary
and sucks the fun out of gaming... though lots of you will argue about immersion and things that i don't have problems with.
B) XP shouldn't really matter on an RP server so taking someone where they couldn't normally go shouldn't be an issue if the situation was RP'd out and they are willing to take the risk. (yes i see the room for abuse i'm not retarded, just my opinion) In real life i go places and do things i shouldn't NORMALLY do but re-read B) ... willing to take the risk
Personally if someone wants to be lame enough to soak xp then it's on their conscience and not ruining my world.
Although, it's much easier to role play with people if you can go places and do things with them... if you find someone you like why not protect them and take them adventuring with you for "experience" and i don't mean points.
Because that's what xp represents. (i've also seen a complex xp system that doesn't allow xp soaking and shows you what your xp is based on {very nice indeed})
That eliminates the need for a GM/DM to watch over people trying to power game as if your a level 20 taking out a level 1 neither of you gets much xp.
2) Stressed:
Please keep it RP and IC as much as possible
not everyone has a way to communicate with each other than the words on the screen and they don't have irc icq msn aim yahoo xfire or any other program like that and even if they did trying to get a point across would still be hell to accomplish quickly. And being punished for such things is not my idea of fun.
But there is always a time when everyone needs to talk ooc like it or not.
This is valid, and while I understand a system of permanent death is not as appreciated by everyone, it is something that has been a part of this world for years now and it's known up-front. Overall, the system works pretty well in the capacity for which it is intended. Having said that, it would be interesting to hear what other systems to "discourage stupidity" have been used successfully.
I happen to be a big fan of the death system on Layonara...
The servers i've played handle stupidity by lengthening time between rests... 3 rests in 12 hour period was one such method along with if you respawn you will not gain xp for four hours. There are lots of ways to discourage doing dumb things.
This cannot and should not be blamed on V3. There were plenty of avoidable and meaningless permanent deaths in V2 as well, many of which stemmed from a period of time where we suspended the current Soul Strand system. To be more specific, many players established a pattern of behavior that was reckless and dangerous knowing that there was no real risk. A week into the suspension of Soul Strand loss, I lost count of how many times people asked me to bring it all back.
I am not blaming anything on V3... merely comparing my level of fun between the two versions as a player who knows too much about the game.
Now, V3 has its warts and its growing pains surely, but it hasn't been in place even a month yet. I was not yet here at the start of V2, but I can say with complete certainty that how V2 was when I started and the V2 that was brought to a close at the end of February were two very, very different things. There were bugs, yes. The servers were far, far, far less stable than they are now. The point is, V3 will improve, and it will do so with constructive feedback from the community. That is very much a key element to Layonara's constantly evolving state. I don't think that can be stressed enough.
Maybe it's the years of programming in my blood (19 years) but if you were selling layonara to someone your company would have flopped.
In my opinion:
Released too early
OK, as the guy who handles these requests, I have both stated and followed through with a degree of leniency due to losses that are the result of bugs in V3. For a time, I even considered suspending the loss of Soul Strands during this introductory period so that people would not be afraid to help us test, but the loss rate and reporting of such did not seem to warrant it. So please, do not make assumptions that we don't care about bugs or losses due to bugs. In fact, even in the standard policies, losses due to bugs are valid reasons for reimbursement.
I haven't personally lost a strand to a "bug" in V3, I have lost 2 strands to "bugs" in the game itself. Most recently zerg's #8 due to some wierd invisibility happening where i was still considered invisible even after death and resting, yet everyone could see me.
I will, however, contribute one other piece of information. The policies for reimbursements used to be more relaxed, but again, because they were abused and their limits pushed by people, we had to tighten them down and establish some consistent standards which I do try very hard to maintain.
...
Yes, they are tested...and which Krandor crypts do you mean? Because they were just updated within the last week. The previous Krandor Crypts were still the same from V2. The V3 version was reviewed by our lead balancer and I tested them myself up until the point where my test character could not get past a door that required somone to pick the lock. The V2 version often had a "bring a cleric" stigma to it, but that was by design.
Now I got you on this one for sure.
And many people that went with me can vouch for my honesty here.
We went into the new Krandor crypts 2 days after it was changed to see what was in there.
The spawns had obviously NOT been tested.
And yes you had to pick the lock... Pixie away!
You could walk around for hours in there and have a constant supply of skeletons to kill... sometimes even overwhelming numbers of them.
Down below you could do the same thing with zombies and that nearly cost me, just taking a look. (curiosity killed the cat)
Again I pose the question... are they tested... and how... and to what extent.
Cause in all my years of programming, that IS NOT TESTED.
Sorry but i'm a bit harsh on programmers/scripters in general.
The next day it was fixed... but my point, I think, has been made.
If it was V3, we would like to know specific things about it, rather than simply "seems untested". This is very vague and does not do much to improve things for anyone, which is ultimately the goal.
I believe answered above.
I am also a firm believer that if not finished don't add it to the module... take yer time.
And on testing. As this is a volunteer effort, and as our player-base is extremely diverse with characters to match, it simply is not practical to test things out in the variety of combinations that we have to support in the time which we have available. We couldn't hope to test in a month what our players could test in less than a single week. You should understand this by your background. And so, we make our best efforts based on experience and whatever testing we can manage, then we observe how it works in a live setting. If things need to be changed, they are.
And I do understand but my background in manufacturing/sales/programming/experimenting says you don't test something on mission critical equipment (in this case your server where people play, it causes chaos)
My advice... if someone is willing to help have them apply... why wait... find out what they can do... test them... and get em started.
I have volunteered to help.
What is stopping me.
Some Red Tape... I think... dunno... even on IRC i've voiced my willingness to help.
I have many many (15) computers here i could run tests on and i'm sure there would be many volunteer players to log on and test it without damaging their real characters, and wasting more of your time.
We cannot currently do any better than that.
This is absolutely untrue. In fact, I'd like to hear more detail about what people do not think is quite right about this world. I hear about so many people who apparently hold back their opinons and valid observations. There's absolutely nothing wrong with constructive input from anyone, whether they are a brand new player or a long-time veteran. I see more possibilities in your message here, but it's pretty low on details. We need those details if things are to improve.
I believe everyone is voicing an opinion about now... I am.
Having said that, we do not act on or implement all suggestions we receive, but that does not mean they are ignored, simply that they may not be a proper fit for Layonara or that we have not been able to make them happen yet. But we have suggestion and discussion forums here for a reason, and the list of community-suggested enhancements to the world is a very long list indeed.
I have issues with your website... new and old and I'm not the only one who has trouble figuring out how things work. and stickies are the devil.
OK, several things here:
1) I hope you do keep the world in mind, and I don't mind saying that we are already working on a review of where CNR is, where it should be and what is between the CNR and characters. This is a work-in-progress and it is happening. Balance is a process.
Again, already talked about above (see releasing too early)
2) On GM's "scolding" higher level players for helping lower-level players...what I think both parties need to understand here is that again, there is a very high potential (and yes, history) of abuse of the line between justifyable RP and XP dragging. This has happened way too much over the years and we've heard tons of excuses about why it was thought to be OK. Higher-level characters helping lower-level ones is OK if done responsibly and with a mind for the spirit of the server. If said lower-level characters hang way back or flit around invisibly contributing little to nothing to the group, then that's not helping, that's dragging, and it's obvious. It's a fuzzy grey line, I agree, but it needs to be handled responsibly by all involved. On the chance that the "scolding" was a bit more, read on. Well, read on anyway. ;)
Answered above with suggestion on fixing the xp distribution system.
3) As I said, it was considered, and even approved, to shut off Soul Strand loss for a time while we test things out. So far, since V3 has been released, there have only been maybe 2 or 3 V3 bug-related requests of this nature and unless I am remembering incorrectly, they have been approved. Since the volume has been low, there has been no need to turn off the system, and I am continuing to handle them on a case-by-case basis and even being more lenient to the possiblity of bug-related losses during this time. We are not cruel, heartless or sadistic. We do understand the desire to not lose characters, and we have, in fact, resurrected at least one or more permanently dead characters who lost their 10th soul strand due to a situation that should not have occurred. And I am still willing to consider doing this in a controlled way if it seems logical to do so. So far, however, it does not based on what I am seeing.
Though you seem to have made your decision, and I do respect that, I hope at least if you read this you'll consider what has been said and perhaps it will dispel some assumptions, rumors or other negative perceptions. If not for you, then perhaps for someone else.
Doesn't affect me..
BRING BACK ERK!
I do want to address one other point specifically:
This concerned me more than anything else you have said in this entire post. I'd like to know more about your perspective as to why people fear GMs. While I know that "us vs. them" idea is out there and has been out there, we do try to keep things as open and fair as possible, though we don't see everything, and if one or more GMs are acting inappropriately (as either their characters or as GMs) then such things need to be addressed. GMs have to maintain a higher adherence to the standards of this community, not a more relaxed one.
Fearing GM/DM's:
Just back to the issue with OOC and spawning hell on us for doing it.
Also with the xp soaking issue.
And perhaps spawning hell on people for bringing a low level to Dregar or other area's they "shouldn't be" when half the party (if any of the party) was too afraid to ask "// anyone here less than level 8?" or even by neglect... spawning hell on people with a permanent death system is by no means a good decision in my opinion. again opinion.
Makes for angry players.
And to anyone else who may be reading this, if there are questions in your minds that perhaps lead to these fears, then I encourage you to use the "Ask a Gamemaster (http://www.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster)" forum, in case there are just unknowns that are leading to fears.
Alright, well it's very late for me now, and so I need to end this. Do consider what I have written and feel free to ask for more clarification.
I'd also encourage you, with your stated background, to consider applying for the Project Team when applications come back around. We can always use talented people who are willing to devote time and effort into making Layonara better.
Again, I would love to help but am put on "hold" by red tape... (when applications come back around)
Again, I am not LEAVING.
I'm merely slowing down on Layonara, as some of the things happening here are against my principles (kinda picky about how things are tested as stated above)
You all have my support and I would love to help, I'm just tired of playing under such circumstances and choices that have been made.
Zergon
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Zergon: One of the painful lessens that I have learned in life is that ultimatums only enrage people and make them feel disrespected. Time and time again the DM staff has asked for our patients with the V3 release. They have made enormous efforts to not only build V3, but also resolve the bugs just as quickly as they can. Need I remind you that no one is getting paid to do this work? Leanthar has stated over and over again that if areas are not balanced, that we should report them as bug reports and they will be reviewed and changed.
I am not bashing the team i'm trying to join it.
I don't want to be paid i want to be a part of a successful team.
I of all people know what they have done here and how much time is involved from setting up the T1 lines to installing what ever operating system (hopefully not windows, but hopefully unix/linux/bsd) to running the servers to admining the databases to building the areas and scripting and rant rant rant
I'm merely at wits ends watching my friends get tired of playing and looking for other servers... then comming to find me to say hey, come check this one out and we'll go here... I DO NOT WANT THAT FOR LAYO!
As far as the "DM's scolding higher level characters" issue... well that is a complex issue. Perhaps it would have been better for you to bring this subject up in a constructive manner on the forums or IRC. I am more to blame then the character in question. I asked him to help my character, and a couple of others get into a dangerous area to harvest a CNR that my character needed as a spell component. What ended up happening, is between point A and point B we kept running into other adventures that wanted to join up with us in the interest of having fun. The end result is that a bunch of characters who were not quite high enough level to be in the area we were in, ended up tagging along. I didn't suggest we should exclude anyone because I didn't think anyone was so low in level, and still don't, that they should be excluded from an outing on the West server. Also every character was very active, doing everything they possibly could to help with the encounters we faced.
Here is where i feel that you think I am talking about an incident that happened durring a topaz gathering adventure... yes that is one case in point.
BUT hardly the big picture and not what I was referring to.
Me and my girl friend play in the same room and were both on that adventure and the whole time we knew exaclty what was going to happen... we'd seen it many many times before.
Read my reply to D for explanations of my feelings on that matter.
Obviously the DMs that peeked in on us, saw what they felt to be a bad RP situation in progress. The high level character was pulled out of the party, and talked to by one or more DMs. Another option the DMs could have used would be to spawn some crazy monsters on us, that wiped out the entire party and brought the soul mother howling and screaming left and right. I think that pulling the high level character out and having a OOC conversation was a healthy way to deal with this situation and maintain a good vibe of all the players that were involved.
You obviously missed the CRAZY monster they spawned on the character in question... he had just recovered from an encounter with one of them and had died from it... was it not for our cleric (name left out) he would have died again and us too.
If you doubt there was such a crazy monster ask the character we both know was there what he fought at the cave entrance and how many tells i sent to him saying that was not normal.
Also ask them how many times someone cast Heal on them to keep them alive.
You were stuck on the stairs so I understand how you missed it...
And, the DM's (two of them, names left out) did spawn more things than were normally there killing one of our party that i saved while bleeding inside the cave.
Then when we all took care of what they spawned on us... that's when they pulled out the character in question and talked to him.
I don't feel I have insulted anyone nor should I apologize for any of my "opinions".
Please read handling xp soaking in my post.
Zergon, I encourage you to re think what you are saying here, and make an apology to the people that work so hard, so that we can have so much fun playing a game.
AeonBlues
I re-read and re-thought what I wrote.
I still stand firmly on it.
Zergon
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Now I got you on this one for sure.
And many people that went with me can vouch for my honesty here.
We went into the new Krandor crypts 2 days after it was changed to see what was in there.
The spawns had obviously NOT been tested.
And yes you had to pick the lock... Pixie away!
You could walk around for hours in there and have a constant supply of skeletons to kill... sometimes even overwhelming numbers of them.
Down below you could do the same thing with zombies and that nearly cost me, just taking a look. (curiosity killed the cat)
Again I pose the question... are they tested... and how... and to what extent.
Cause in all my years of programming, that IS NOT TESTED.
Sorry but i'm a bit harsh on programmers/scripters in general.
The next day it was fixed... but my point, I think, has been made.
This was due to a glitch caused by something that shouldn't have affected it at all. The playtesting of the areas was done immediately prior to the glitch being inserted.
I'm far too familiar with Murphy's law, but with the size of the PW it is prohibitive to retest "everything" after every change.
I don't think a small glitch being in for 1 day is.. really that bad at all. I've been around the servers and I don't think there is a single one I've been to that updates as regularly as Layo or fixes bugs as quickly.
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As far as release time and "how done things are," With the volunteer staff that we have, the only way to have released a "polished" version of v3 in one chunk would have been to freeze all updates and attention to the v2 module for many months while we worked on the v3 release and leave the v2 module online. It was decided (and rightly so imho) that this particular path was quite undesirable, so an incremental rollout was decided upon.
----
Re: CNR locations
As I understand it these are going to be re-jiggered (technical term) to once again appropriately match the CR of their areas. However, CNR placement matching encounter CR is not as critical as say... getting the haks working so people can log into the game, making sure all transitions connect properly or fixing possible ambush spawns. So it's a few rungs down the ladder from top priority.
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Just a last thought before bedtime.
The example in the post above is a good example of why players fear DM's
The DM's may or may not have been around for the RP that got us to that cave but all of the lower level characters were warned by the higher level characters to "keep up" and "I can not save or protect all of you it could be your death"
I don't know one character that didn't help in some way, and I don't know one of them that did nothing... making clerics invisible is a good strategy... they take less hits and have a chance to get close enough to heal... after all that's their role. The young cleric that I saved thanked me and returned the favor as that was my last heal and i took hits healing her...
nothing was lost in that trip and every character (even the low levels) did an excellent job keeping each other alive.
Adding very little to the group is still doing something and makes a character feel important... even if only a little bit.
Having an experience with a higher level character at his or her higher level (places they shouldn't be) is a good learning experience and creates goals.
Not to mention, shows the younger characters how much work has gone into success.
Another of my friends has started playing recently and is very discouraged by the acts he's witnessed by the DM's, "blood thirsty" is what he uses to describe them... another one I get in tells a lot is
namehere:Tell: DM Sniper!
Truly there is a better way of dealing with xp issues in the spirit of Layonara than having the nickname Sniperville
If players can't resolve the issues then maybe a new xp distribution system is in order... that takes it out of the DM's hands and puts it into L's hands as he is the one in charge...
PM me for ideas on the scripting issue involved.
Zergon
zzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzz
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This was due to a glitch caused by something that shouldn't have affected it at all. The playtesting of the areas was done immediately prior to the glitch being inserted.
I'm far too familiar with Murphy's law, but with the size of the PW it is prohibitive to retest "everything" after every change.
I don't think a small glitch being in for 1 day is.. really that bad at all. I've been around the servers and I don't think there is a single one I've been to that updates as regularly as Layo or fixes bugs as quickly.
----
As far as release time and "how done things are," With the volunteer staff that we have, the only way to have released a "polished" version of v3 in one chunk would have been to freeze all updates and attention to the v2 module for many months while we worked on the v3 release and leave the v2 module online. It was decided (and rightly so imho) that this particular path was quite undesirable, so an incremental rollout was decided upon.
----
Re: CNR locations
As I understand it these are going to be re-jiggered (technical term) to once again appropriately match the CR of their areas. However, CNR placement matching encounter CR is not as critical as say... getting the haks working so people can log into the game, making sure all transitions connect properly or fixing possible ambush spawns. So it's a few rungs down the ladder from top priority.
Again, Test Server
another handy tool, CVS
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Re: DMs Spawning stuff on parties to discourage inappropriate groupings
This is not my policy and I don't do it. I believe ooc issues should be handled ooc and IC issues should be handled IC.
If you happen to be talking about a recent ocurance where I talked to someone about this type of thing, I did not spawn any creatures the entire time I was with the party.
I'm not sure if it was the same incident, but I think often it is assumed for some reason that if a party dies somewhere then it must be because the spawn was abnormal, or if the spawn is at all different from what you see every other time that a GM must be maliciously stalking you.
That is usually not the case, and it certainly was not for the recent incident that I was involved in.
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I'm far too familiar with Murphy's law, but with the size of the PW it is prohibitive to retest "everything" after every change.
I don't think a small glitch being in for 1 day is.. really that bad at all. I've been around the servers and I don't think there is a single one I've been to that updates as regularly as Layo or fixes bugs as quickly.
Just a note from a few players.
Do you have any characters?
I see on your profile N/A
far too many times I don't think a small glitch being in for 1 day is....
maybe if you were Erk you wouldn't agree with that
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Good night all
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Players control your world.
You may think it's yours but when the players leave, you control the empty server.
No, the people who foot the bill every month for server fees are the ones who control the world. When they leave, the players uh, yeah...
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A variety of responses...
I think that the low volume of requests for SS reimbursements may stem from the "must have a GM/WL witness to even consider requesting" is twarting the requests. And then, that falls through at times. After seeing people get criticized for wasting the Team's time with requests that don't have a legitimate witness(es), people think several times before posting, if they ever do.
Fair enough, but V3 notwithstanding, losses due to bugs in Layonara (different than in Bioware's engine) have always been a valid criteria for reimbursement. Perhaps people have gotten confused by this, despite several efforts to clarify. If that continues, I apologize. It is very difficult to write a concise policy that is fair, enforceable and concise.
So let me state here as clearly as possible: The GM/Project/Development teams are not out to kill off characters. The purpose of V3 was not to be more difficult so that characters would lose Soul Strands and die off permanently. It is intended to be different and represent a changing world, and change sometimes casuse mis-steps but again, permanently killing characters is not the goal.
So for cases of losses due to potential bugs in V3...YES! Please make the request, or at least ask the question.
Second point, how do people know it is a reportable bug if it is a spawn? They may just think that it was ment to be and take their loss.
Ask.
As far as fearing GM's...maybe fear is not the right word, but getting bashed in the forums publically tends to turn people off and have a sense of withdrawal and seperation from the GM's. When a GM comes across as "this is how it is and I don't care what people think" or the "don't like it, don't join" attitude, it makes people shy away from expressing their thoughts on it. And not just to the GM involved, but to all GM's. Some folks, I am sure, feel that if they dispute one GM, then they have just taken on the whole GM team.
Understandable. I can only suggest that if one does not feel comfortable speaking out against a GM (or GMs) to contact Leanthar directly. He has in the past removed GMs from the team for acting inappropriately (including disbanding the entire team once several years ago), and if nothing else, he should know about unacceptable behavior on the part of GMs. He clearly cannot be online all the time watching everything, and if he doesn't know about something, he can't do anything about it.
For as much as we all love this place, this game world is his baby, and he has a lot of time, effort, love and mental energy invested in Layonara that goes far beyond any of the rest of us.
Maybe it's the years of programming in my blood (19 years) but if you were selling layonara to someone your company would have flopped.
In my opinion:
Released too early
A fair comment, but again, if we could sell it and we were selling it, we would be doing things far, far differently.
Now I got you on this one for sure.
And many people that went with me can vouch for my honesty here.
We went into the new Krandor crypts 2 days after it was changed to see what was in there.
The spawns had obviously NOT been tested.
And yes you had to pick the lock... Pixie away!
You could walk around for hours in there and have a constant supply of skeletons to kill... sometimes even overwhelming numbers of them.
Down below you could do the same thing with zombies and that nearly cost me, just taking a look. (curiosity killed the cat)
Again I pose the question... are they tested... and how... and to what extent.
Cause in all my years of programming, that IS NOT TESTED.
Sorry but i'm a bit harsh on programmers/scripters in general.
The next day it was fixed... but my point, I think, has been made.
That's why I asked. :)
The bug was introduced during a final stage of preparation, one, I might add, that affected a total of 13 areas across the hundreds on all 3 servers. These areas were, in fact, tested and by our lead balancer of all people. But then after they were tested, I introduced the error inadvertently in a batch-processing step. So yes, I take responsibility for that, and yes, I fixed it as soon as I could.
But let me just note that this particular problem was reported by no more than one player. One.
And I do understand but my background in manufacturing/sales/programming/experimenting says you don't test something on mission critical equipment (in this case your server where people play, it causes chaos)
True...but this is unfortunately not an endeavor where we have the resources to put things through the paces one would normally do for a commercial product. That may seem like a thin excuse, but if this were our "day job" we would in fact be doing things very, very different.
But we only have so much time, manpower and equipment with which to work.
My advice... if someone is willing to help have them apply... why wait... find out what they can do... test them... and get em started.
I have volunteered to help.
What is stopping me.
Some Red Tape... I think... dunno... even on IRC i've voiced my willingness to help.
Apply...PM Leanthar...or me...or anyone on the team. I might be wrong, but I don't personally remember you stating your interest explicitly before now. IRC, as good of a communication tool as it is for real-time communication is not very good in terms of things we need to remember. PMs or e-mails work far better.
Again, maybe you have, but I'm not remembering it.
I have many many (15) computers here i could run tests on and i'm sure there would be many volunteer players to log on and test it without damaging their real characters, and wasting more of your time.
This kind of offer is appreciated, but for very valid reasons it is something we will most likely not do. The most significant and hard-line reason for this is that the Layonara modules have been "stolen" at least once in the past when access to the module source was more freely available to those who could contribute (i.e. GM and Project teams). As a result, direct access to the modules is restricted to a select few. This probably will not change.
I believe everyone is voicing an opinion about now... I am.
Yes, but then many people also wait until things get to a point of frustration before even uttering a single word. I'm suggesting comments before that point.
Doesn't affect me..
BRING BACK ERK!
That case is under review, and I'm terribly sorry, but I am going through things as best I can with the time I have.
Fearing GM/DM's:
Just back to the issue with OOC and spawning hell on us for doing it.
Also with the xp soaking issue.
And perhaps spawning hell on people for bringing a low level to Dregar or other area's they "shouldn't be" when half the party (if any of the party) was too afraid to ask "// anyone here less than level 8?" or even by neglect... spawning hell on people with a permanent death system is by no means a good decision in my opinion. again opinion.
Makes for angry players.
OK, fair enough. In my opinion, "punishment by spawn" is not necessarily the best way to accomplish things, though increasing difficulty and injecting some RP into the mix as a result can get the effect across. I don't want to get into a "GM X did this wrong" discussion, but GMs should not be trying to kill characters as punishment for rules infractions by their players.
Again...things need to be reported.
On a side note (because it was mentioned by...someone...somewhere)...
The rules about OOC conversations "in the clear" are there because some people have taken to having entire OOC conversations out in the open, which is not good for the immersion of others who may be nearby.
Things like "//gotta go" or "//anyone below level 8?" or similar things are fine. Things like "// so what kind of music does everyone like?" (and yeah, I've seen that) just have no place in RP.
Again, I would love to help but am put on "hold" by red tape... (when applications come back around)
I believe I addressed this above. To add, we've taken people onto the Project Team outside of the normal application process. Take a chance. *shrugs*
Again, Test Server
another handy tool, CVS
Addressed above.
Just a note from a few players.
Do you have any characters?
I see on your profile N/A
far too many times I don't think a small glitch being in for 1 day is....
maybe if you were Erk you wouldn't agree with that
He has several, in fact, one of which has been in-play for 2.5 RL years.
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Players control your world.
You may think it's yours but when the players leave, you control the empty server.
That is a very true statement. I'm not downplaying the people that pay the server fees, develop the world, etc at all. The true fact is it's the players that make the server. Have no players? Why pay the fees and develop for it? Your player base make or breaks the game. We are the ones that keep the server active. And it's arrogant to assume that no matter how much work goes into the world that there will always be people to play it.
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I believe "control" is the wrong word to use here.
Control is firmly in Leanthar's hands as the guy who owns the name, the intellectual property and so forth. If he pulls the plug, that's it, and no amount of player input can bring that back if he is done. That does not mean, however, that players are not important. In fact, they're critical. Do not think to presume we do not understand that.
Putting down a statement like that only serves to perpetuate an "us vs. them" attitude, when we should all be thinking about just "us". We're a community, players and GMs alike. All GMs are players, and we have as much time, energy and emotion invested in this as anyone. As individuals, GMs have the same quirks and failings as anyone else; as a group, we strive to be better than that. Nobody here wants to see the server crumble.
But I will point out that while we try to accommodate as much as possible and as many opinions and suggestions and playing styles as possible, it simply is not possible to accommodate them all.
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That is a very true statement. I'm not downplaying the people that pay the server fees, develop the world, etc at all. The true fact is it's the players that make the server. Have no players? Why pay the fees and develop for it? Your player base make or breaks the game. We are the ones that keep the server active. And it's arrogant to assume that no matter how much work goes into the world that there will always be people to play it.
It's also frustrating to have this argument thrown into your face every time a particular individual is upset.
It happens over and over and over. As if people think we aren't listening and we aren't trying our best to make it enjoyable for everyone or like we don't care if we have a community. It's a threat, plain and simple. Do this or you're going to meet an empty community. We hear this a lot.
Look at the most recent poll, there are around 80 people who visit this forum at least a few times a day. I bet the majority of them aren't happy with everything in the world but understand we do our best. Are they all going to mass exodus because things aren't going so well? What about the other individuals who don't even visit these forums. What's their voice?
I'm not disagreeing with the notion that players are critical to a game world, but when's the last time you heard Leanthar say "I am the one that makes this world for you to enjoy, I am the one who pays for it, do as I say or else I'll just ban you. This is my world, these are my desires, if you don't like it then leave." How often do you hear this threat?
By all means keep telling us how important each of you are to the world, as if we don't already know, but why it seems to only come out when someone is upset leaves me with a bad feeling. I just keep wondering why you folks seem to believe that this sort of threat really matters when YOU are the one enjoying the privilege to play here.
We are not paying customers, we are guests in our world. You know how much we've made from advertising since we moved over to the new forum - $2 (Thanks to those people who downloaded Firefox with Google).
This is not a business, if evreyone decides to leave then okay it's just a small group of close friends left paying less server fees? We do this because we want everyone to enjoy the world the way we have, to find the friends and magic and be able to escape just like the way we could. It is certainly not because we are trying to horde in a bunch of cash, because you know what I've learned. This community, for the most part, is not willing to pay for anything despite how much they enjoy it, because they know nothing will change either way, pay or not. We'll just keep doing our best, keep acquiescing to your suggestions and demands and keep building for you, keep trying to respond to these sorts of threads in diplomatic, unwavering monotone.
These are my strong opinions, because I think I read we're all supposed to be able to have them and be able to discuss them. So there's mine. In my capacity as administrator I've held it back, most of the time we do, to remain professional and considerate, but there are so many issues in this thread that have me pretty upset. So many misconceptions. Supposed easy fixes to complex problems. Misunderstandings on processes. I don't have the poise Dorganath does.
Good day,
-orth
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(OneST8 begins to vent...)
That is a very true statement. I'm not downplaying the people that pay the server fees, develop the world, etc at all.
You aren't?
The true fact is it's the players that make the server.
Eh? Did I hear you correctly? Did you just negate your first statement?
Have no players? Why pay the fees and develop for it? Your player base make or breaks the game.
I'm very sorry but it's not the players that makes or breaks the game... it's the entire community that makes or breaks the game.
We are the ones that keep the server active. And it's arrogant to assume that no matter how much work goes into the world that there will always be people to play it.
NwN1 is dying if not already dead. Pure and simple fact. "You" are not the ones that keep the server active. Everyone in this community keeps the server active.
By perpetuating an "us vs them" attitude (as Dorganath so eloquently pointed out) is what will tear this community to shreds and to be quite frank, this "us vs them" attitude repels me and everyone else that has poured their soul into making this world a better place for everyone.
Perhaps we should charge a per month fee for forum access so people can make their "suggestions" (aka: outright demands and threats). This will most likely never happen but I'm just trying to make a point here. If you think for a second that threatening the teams with abandonment is a constructive method of critism and a positive proponent for useful change; you're sadly mistaken. (Had this been a paying subscription community, that's a different story but then again, would we be pouring our hearts into such an enterprise? Perhaps, but perhaps not.)
Leanthar made $40 in donations last month. As orth pointed out, we've made $2 from Google+Firefox downloads. That's $42. Wow. I'm very grateful for those that have donated in the past and I'm grateful for those few that still do.
The actual NwN servers run about $200+ per month US. The server that these forums and LORE run on cost about $130 per month CD [out of my own pocket]. Why oh why did I just authorize another three servers on my credit card, running me approximately $150 each, just to provide a more stable and far more robust web presence for the Layonara community?
Why did orth just spend over 400 hours (a modest estimate) setting up and migrating the old forums to these new ones? Setting up nifty hybrid BBCode tables... tweaking just about every facet of these forums...
Why did Pankoki spend just as much (if not more) time putting V3 together...
Why has Dorganath been pouring himself into this world filling in the cracks and helping out both Pankoki and orth wherever possible...
Why did Leanthar fork out more cash for the licenses of this fantastically advanced forum with all of it's crazy plugins and features...
Why does the GM team slave to put on the countless quality quests...
Why does the writing team even write a single word at all!!!
Why don't I even have the slightest urge to play in this community anymore? Pure and simple. I feel disconnected. The reality has set in. The community of positive reinforcement and genuine appreciation for our team efforts seemingly no longer exists due to the over saturation of this vocalised "us vs them" attitude.
These are all rhetorical questions and warrant no response. Pardon my words but note the sentiment so that the next world you "help to keep alive" is not innundated with such negativity and disrespect for the entire community.
(...OneST8 finishes his ranting.)
I'm sorry. Please ignore my ramblings. I'm just an inconsequential aspect of background noise within this community. Typically I just ignore threads like this and keep doing my job to the best of my ability. Sorry for raising my voice amidst this crowd.
To those of you who genuinely appreciate this community in all of it's entirety, I appologize profusely for allowing myself to voice my personal opinion and rantings on threads like this. Sometimes, I'm absolutely compelled; as in this case.
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No, the people who foot the bill every month for server fees are the ones who control the world. When they leave, the players uh, yeah...
move to a different server... start their own... servers can be free.
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Zergon, good luck trying to find a server that is as good as Layo or make one yourself.
I've played enough servers to know there is no other that can match Layo...
*cough*
Once you go Layo you can't go back!
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Until people can feel safe about bringing their concerns about the server to these boards this fear will always be here.
You will see in all posts that are criticizing things the same reactions from the same players*shrugs*
I addressed it once in an old post and it didn't help a bit.
Fact remains that putting people down is much easier then picking up on the things they formulated wrong .
I mean, if you can point out it is formulated wrong and that what was meant should be put in other words,then i guess you know what was meant else you wouldn't react to it .
Still people rather burn the hide off the one complaining then help them out putting the things in the right words*shrugs*
Of course everyone ( no matter who) is more interested to protect their friends then to help a complete stranger.
Specially if this complete stranger is in any way asking things that could be seen as an attack on that same friends.
We have seen many rants in the past and will probably see more in the future,some with legitimate questions and others with non-legitimate or even disrespectful question.
I'm sure those off the team that take time to read and answer the rants grew tired after a few, as have most players.
A very nice rant was from someone i wont name , but he asked questions in a respectful manner and formulated it very well.
Every aspect that could be answered by game mechanics,time trouble from the voluntary team and that could be branded as "you don't understand correctly"were answered.
Every other point he made was put under the carpet and over-screamed by reactions from old time players and team members and gm's.
There were numerous replies to this rant , agreeing ones and disagreeing ones
and it simply bled out due to the fact the original poster never reacted to his own post and left the server for a few months.
I myself have been looking around for other servers and came to a very simple conclusion really:
RP on Layo is the best you will find , even those that in my eyes rp wrong are consistent in it so-much that it seems natural and therefor good rp:)
Having a great time playing lately due to a simple change in things.
I only do what i am certain is right, that way avoiding the contact with most team members and gm's on things that views differ and i can truly say that it has brought the fun back in playing.
I no-longer get upset if others play a good char with a god they follow and go out with their gods enemy simply because that one can help them get exp and cnrs they 'normaly couldnt get.
I just focus on my own char and play him as good as i can and if all would do that i think-and i really mean that- the world off Layonara would be a far better place again.
Just my two cents on a discussion i wasn't planning on wasting a word on:)
Jan A.K.A. Barion
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Grrrr.
Ok now I am getting frustrated.
Re: DMs Spawning stuff on parties to discourage inappropriate groupings
This is not my policy and I don't do it. I believe ooc issues should be handled ooc and IC issues should be handled IC.
If you happen to be talking about a recent ocurance where I talked to someone about this type of thing, I did not spawn any creatures the entire time I was with the party.
I'm not sure if it was the same incident, but I think often it is assumed for some reason that if a party dies somewhere then it must be because the spawn was abnormal, or if the spawn is at all different from what you see every other time that a GM must be maliciously stalking you.
That is usually not the case, and it certainly was not for the recent incident that I was involved in.
I am not talking about any particular ocurance. I'm not trying to say anyone is doing a horrible job, point fingers, or anything else negative.
I am merely offering advice, suggestions, and venting for people who aren't doing it themselves. If I have to be the voice then so be it.
If anyone has a suggestion, comment, or something useful to say, and doesn't want to post it themselves feel free to PM it to me and i'll do it.
Originally Posted by Talan Va'lash
This was due to a glitch caused by something that shouldn't have affected it at all. The playtesting of the areas was done immediately prior to the glitch being inserted.
I'm far too familiar with Murphy's law, but with the size of the PW it is prohibitive to retest "everything" after every change.
I don't think a small glitch being in for 1 day is.. really that bad at all. I've been around the servers and I don't think there is a single one I've been to that updates as regularly as Layo or fixes bugs as quickly.
----
As far as release time and "how done things are," With the volunteer staff that we have, the only way to have released a "polished" version of v3 in one chunk would have been to freeze all updates and attention to the v2 module for many months while we worked on the v3 release and leave the v2 module online. It was decided (and rightly so imho) that this particular path was quite undesirable, so an incremental rollout was decided upon.
This is a good example of how to discourage people from taking the time to post anything... if I was someone else and had gotten that as a reply i would not ever suggest anything again...
another note... had you actually read my post the but was there for 3 days... I believe 2 +1 = 3
Quote: by Zergon
And I do understand but my background in manufacturing/sales/programming/experimenting says you don't test something on mission critical equipment (in this case your server where people play, it causes chaos)
Quote: by Dorganath
True...but this is unfortunately not an endeavor where we have the resources to put things through the paces one would normally do for a commercial product. That may seem like a thin excuse, but if this were our "day job" we would in fact be doing things very, very different.
But we only have so much time, manpower and equipment with which to work.
I understand only so many resources, and time....
But I also understand that players have the same thing and if i'm not mistaken... the players are why you do this.
So you have X amount of resources, and X amount of time (each day) to work on this project. You have 3 servers at least... though your webpage used to boast you were spread across more than that. There are very few people ever on some of these servers (planes for example) and any of them would be well suited as a test server to see how things will be.
Apply...PM Leanthar...or me...or anyone on the team. I might be wrong, but I don't personally remember you stating your interest explicitly before now. IRC, as good of a communication tool as it is for real-time communication is not very good in terms of things we need to remember. PMs or e-mails work far better.
Again, maybe you have, but I'm not remembering it.
I'm MetaPhaze on IRC and you probably don't remember it as it wasn't directed at you... It was more of a question of "how do i join this team"
and the response was about as great as some of these i'm getting now.
This kind of offer is appreciated, but for very valid reasons it is something we will most likely not do. The most significant and hard-line reason for this is that the Layonara modules have been "stolen" at least once in the past when access to the module source was more freely available to those who could contribute (i.e. GM and Project teams). As a result, direct access to the modules is restricted to a select few. This probably will not change.
exactly what i expected to hear... no less...
another example of why some don't post.
Yes, but then many people also wait until things get to a point of frustration before even uttering a single word. I'm suggesting comments before that point.
....
My comments are just getting excuses... no real work getting done.
I believe "control" is the wrong word to use here.
Control is firmly in Leanthar's hands as the guy who owns the name, the intellectual property and so forth. If he pulls the plug, that's it, and no amount of player input can bring that back if he is done. That does not mean, however, that players are not important. In fact, they're critical. Do not think to presume we do not understand that.
Putting down a statement like that only serves to perpetuate an "us vs. them" attitude, when we should all be thinking about just "us". We're a community, players and GMs alike. All GMs are players, and we have as much time, energy and emotion invested in this as anyone. As individuals, GMs have the same quirks and failings as anyone else; as a group, we strive to be better than that. Nobody here wants to see the server crumble.
But I will point out that while we try to accommodate as much as possible and as many opinions and suggestions and playing styles as possible, it simply is not possible to accommodate them all.
I think control is the right word.. L wouldn't do this if no one played it.
And since players CONTROL the game market... well.. yep right word
It's also frustrating to have this argument thrown into your face every time a particular individual is upset.
It happens over and over and over. As if people think we aren't listening and we aren't trying our best to make it enjoyable for everyone or like we don't care if we have a community. It's a threat, plain and simple. Do this or you're going to meet an empty community. We hear this a lot.
Look at the most recent poll, there are around 80 people who visit this forum at least a few times a day. I bet the majority of them aren't happy with everything in the world but understand we do our best. Are they all going to mass exodus because things aren't going so well? What about the other individuals who don't even visit these forums. What's their voice?
I'm not disagreeing with the notion that players are critical to a game world, but when's the last time you heard Leanthar say "I am the one that makes this world for you to enjoy, I am the one who pays for it, do as I say or else I'll just ban you. This is my world, these are my desires, if you don't like it then leave." How often do you hear this threat?
By all means keep telling us how important each of you are to the world, as if we don't already know, but why it seems to only come out when someone is upset leaves me with a bad feeling. I just keep wondering why you folks seem to believe that this sort of threat really matters when YOU are the one enjoying the privilege to play here.
We are not paying customers, we are guests in our world. You know how much we've made from advertising since we moved over to the new forum - $2 (Thanks to those people who downloaded Firefox with Google).
This is not a business, if evreyone decides to leave then okay it's just a small group of close friends left paying less server fees? We do this because we want everyone to enjoy the world the way we have, to find the friends and magic and be able to escape just like the way we could. It is certainly not because we are trying to horde in a bunch of cash, because you know what I've learned. This community, for the most part, is not willing to pay for anything despite how much they enjoy it, because they know nothing will change either way, pay or not. We'll just keep doing our best, keep acquiescing to your suggestions and demands and keep building for you, keep trying to respond to these sorts of threads in diplomatic, unwavering monotone.
These are my strong opinions, because I think I read we're all supposed to be able to have them and be able to discuss them. So there's mine. In my capacity as administrator I've held it back, most of the time we do, to remain professional and considerate, but there are so many issues in this thread that have me pretty upset. So many misconceptions. Supposed easy fixes to complex problems. Misunderstandings on processes. I don't have the poise Dorganath does.
Good day,
-orth
Did I forget to mention that i'm abrasive?
Did I forget to mention evil?
oh wait... no i covered that a few posts back..
this is not throwing anything in anyones face... It's my signature.
and i'm not upset.
Did i think for one minute before making my signature?
Why yes I did.... Did i think that it would make someone upset?
Why yes I did.... Did I post it here for that reason?
WHY YES I DID
(OneST8 begins to vent...) <-------- thank you OneST8 very well put
(referring to your post)
Zergon, good luck trying to find a server that is as good as Layo or make one yourself.
I've played enough servers to know there is no other that can match Layo...
*cough*
Once you go Layo you can't go back!
there are many servers with a rating higher than layo's
And i've found one where people take their time and RP just as well as on layo, granted the land is way bigger than layonara, less laggy and has the same amount of users online... the world is quite boring... but the players are very experienced RP'ers and very nice.
I expected more from you mr. arguement. where is your aguemetative spirit today you send me more arguement in tells than this....
i'm let down...
(letters from Zergons inbox)
Dude, I've been staying up reading your posts on th Frustrated Thread, and I must say I hope you get added tot he team, you would ROCK the house.
I hope you can open the doors for some serious improvements to Layo.
Keeping going man, I got yer back. (not that you need my help but hey! Go Zergon!)
(name omitted)
PS, Seeing as how you are the first friend I really made on Layo, its cool to see you opening up the door on these issues. Keep it up
Well its nice someone knows what the hell is going on. I just get all upset when things like this happen. I dont want you or (name omitted) to leave Layo. You guys are fun. I hope I see you in game tonight, and I hope (name omitted) can still join me for my lil mining trip tomorrow. Ttyl
Thanks, I'm trying
you could aswell use the example of when (name omitted) me you and (name omitted) went down to the cave of mist and fought all the way down then i started to invis myself to go up out of the cave as and being brought by 4 gms saying i hadn't fought at all which turn to 5 once an other one joined the party. That because i was a mage i could not act as a healer, hum didnt i save you at least twice from dying except once where you died, and Didnt I save (name omitted) once?? Healing you guys while invis and that was when we were hitting the boss at the end of the cave. At that time (name omitted) was level 17 or 18 I was 15 (name omitted) 11 and you I dont know. Well within level limits and over the limites of the server.
Just a few letters from my box...
Again I am not pointing fingers, blah blah blah...
If you want me to say something for you PM me.
the last letter is just ANOTHER example of players complaining about the GM's here...
I am only doing this as I think it's out of hand... but my hands are tied... it's not my world my server or my say... all i can do is use my pen..... keyboard
The pe... keyboard is mightier than the sword.
just a small quote that's been around for a while
If everyone tells you that you have a tail... maybe you should turn around and look.
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Zergon, you failed your diplomacy check. It is not that you point are not valid, it is how they are being presented. You started off with what sounded to me like an ultimatum, and that is why I was asking you to apologize.
V3 is hardly buggy. A few kinks, but I am loving layo more now then ever. If you want see what a buggy server looks like, then try playing on a NWN2 server. Let me tell you, when it comes to persistent worlds, that program is a buggy piece of ox dung. Leanthar made the right decision when he chose to not take us to NWN2. Now, that might happen some day, but NWN2 is not ready for layonara.
On fear of DMs. It starts with bad RP. It starts with players going places they should not, or using a lot of OOC chatter, or trying to exploit the server in some way to their characters advantage. I started out here on the wrong foot. I started out with bad RP and being fearful of DMs. As a more experienced player, I know now that some of the times I thought a DM was picking on me, it was not the case. The unexpected event that I was facing was the result of another player doing something like dragging a spawn near a transition and leaving it there.
That being said, there has been definite times when my character was killed by a DM, lets just say punitive spawn. In my opinion, when ever a DM makes a punitive spawn, there should be follow up. PMs and messages on the forum to explain what happened and why. I have heard players sending me tells worried about bored DMs. I love bored DMs. Some times your character will die because a DM added a critter you were not expecting. I have heard about a character being killed by a DM, and thought, well if that guy was not just running as fast as he could from one encounter to the next, maybe he would have formulated a strategy. But that paladin runs around like berserker on cat nip.
Another thing that happens, is that a very high level character comes through an area while invisible. Then your character walks through and gets greased. An inexperienced player, will suspect that a DM killed them, and become fearful of DMs.
As far as our topaz expedition goes...
The only fatality that we experienced was from a friendly fire death magic spell. So, nothing too off balanced was thrown at us.
Nope, some invisible yahoo was blocking me from getting started on the stair ramp. I never saw that mysterious spawn. I have never seen a level 20 character there either, so I am still not convinced that what ever it was, was a DM spawn. It could have just been a level 20 spawn, hmm.
AeonBlues
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A lot of these frustratons should be brought much ealier to someone rather than letting them fester. Many times before I brought concerns directly to Leanthar and found him to be very responsive and caring.
I've been here for a while..not quite as long as Orth and OneSt8 but long enough to see the cycle of these type of posts that in end only serve to heighten emotions rather than go to the issue that needs addressing.
There are things I don't necessarily like in Layo but then I remember what Layo used to be like and what it's like now. Back when it was Just North and South things were no where near the content we have now. Then I also remember how much team members get paid for the work they do as well as how much grief Leanthar gets to keep this world going. I may not like somethings but instead of asking to change something I find ways to get it in parties.
If you have frustrations that you don't feel are being addressed, PM Leanthar, he's a great guy and will help if he can.
As for other servers....good luck finding one. I've looked, quality ones just aren't there with the feel of Layo
As for the team members I would also like to re-iterate a heart felt thank you for the work you do here.
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another note... had you actually read my post the but was there for 3 days... I believe 2 +1 = 3
but = bug
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Zergon, you failed your diplomacy check. It is not that you point are not valid, it is how they are being presented. You started off with what sounded to me like an ultimatum, and that is why I was asking you to apologize.
V3 is hardly buggy. A few kinks, but I am loving layo more now then ever. If you want see what a buggy server looks like, then try playing on a NWN2 server. Let me tell you, when it comes to persistent worlds, that program is a buggy piece of ox dung. Leanthar made the right decision when he chose to not take us to NWN2. Now, that might happen some day, but NWN2 is not ready for layonara.
On fear of DMs. It starts with bad RP. It starts with players going places they should not, or using a lot of OOC chatter, or trying to exploit the server in some way to their characters advantage. I started out here on the wrong foot. I started out with bad RP and being fearful of DMs. As a more experienced player, I know now that some of the times I thought a DM was picking on me, it was not the case. The unexpected event that I was facing was the result of another player doing something like dragging a spawn near a transition and leaving it there.
That being said, there has been definite times when my character was killed by a DM, lets just say punitive spawn. In my opinion, when ever a DM makes a punitive spawn, there should be follow up. PMs and messages on the forum to explain what happened and why. I have heard players sending me tells worried about bored DMs. I love bored DMs. Some times your character will die because a DM added a critter you were not expecting. I have heard about a character being killed by a DM, and thought, well if that guy was not just running as fast as he could from one encounter to the next, maybe he would have formulated a strategy. But that paladin runs around like berserker on cat nip.
Another thing that happens, is that a very high level character comes through an area while invisible. Then your character walks through and gets greased. An inexperienced player, will suspect that a DM killed them, and become fearful of DMs.
As far as our topaz expedition goes...
The only fatality that we experienced was from a friendly fire death magic spell. So, nothing too off balanced was thrown at us.
Nope, some invisible yahoo was blocking me from getting started on the stair ramp. I never saw that mysterious spawn. I have never seen a level 20 character there either, so I am still not convinced that what ever it was, was a DM spawn. It could have just been a level 20 spawn, hmm.
AeonBlues
Try # 3
I am abrasive.. I will come off harsh obstinant.. angry... and down right mean... don't like it tough luck
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As far as fearing GM's...maybe fear is not the right word, but getting bashed in the forums publically tends to turn people off and have a sense of withdrawal and seperation from the GM's. When a GM comes across as "this is how it is and I don't care what people think" or the "don't like it, don't join" attitude, it makes people shy away from expressing their thoughts on it. And not just to the GM involved, but to all GM's. Some folks, I am sure, feel that if they dispute one GM, then they have just taken on the whole GM team.
over all i would agree too the state ment for a non-adult. I'm very new too Layo. after 3-4 weeks i realised i made my first PC wrong. I did not know i could just strat him over so i made a new PC
Xune or X'une in my character semmision thread got lack of a better term i argued with the CHaracter approver/s. I stated my points and backed them up with information aviable on teh forum's a rules. althought it was a bit painful and frustrating in the end i made teh character i wanted too for teh most part. the comparmises were wuite minimal. I did nto feel i was takeing ont eh entire GM team but i feel since i stated my case with out getting angre it worked out in teh long wrong.
I would sugest too peoply dissagreeing with a GM/DM is ok depending on how you go about doing it. There'salways teh possiability you simply are viewing something differently or are miss understanding teh real issue.
as a new player some times Layo feels like a members only club that really does not want any new members. i would say over all my gaming experiance with other players has greatly improved in V3 from V2. keeping in mind i only played each for about 3-4 weeks.
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Leanthar made $40 in donations last month.
I highly recommend people that uses the monthly PayPal payment check your account. I have had the payments stop for some unknown reason. No one could answer up to why it was cancelled, so I had to go in and set up a new one.
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All right, yo, you all need to step back and reconsider trying to make a point on the Interweb.
It doesn't work.
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This has kind of disintegrated into frustration venting, but considering the title of this thread and the things that have been stated back and forth I'm not really sure that's a bad thing, if everyone has a drink or something with it.
What I am hoping is that instead of everyone looking at each side and backing their friends or same-opinion posters, more people will look at the frustrations on both and understand the dangers of widening the already existing gap. I don't know, maybe talking about it will help that?
I would like to think so, yet the part of my brain that has tiredly been down this road suspects that these posts will merely be seen as attacks instead of mirrors to player feelings and signs that more cooperation is needed. I'm afraid that the posts by orth, OneST8, and Dorg will be seen as a shining example of bloodthirsty admins leaping down the throats of the common players who are merely expressing their opinions, players will start listing their specific examples where they have been crucified by a DM, and we will crucify the team with a list. I'm really familiar with this one...
If this is the case, and I am sure that it is for many people, please just step back and try to hit this from an angle that you can see both sides from... I can't speak for everyone, but I know a lot of things said here and in a few other places bite kind of hard, but are not really unusual.
For example... the part I AM familiar with, regarding the team and community jumping on ideas and ridiculing suggestions and so on, I know 2/3 of the people here put me in that category and that there is nothing I can do about that. I am kind of used to the fact by now, that if I try to answer a question, even lightheartedly, that is in any way a negative comment on the merit or feasibility of a suggestion, I will be disliked and be considered as tromping on the players or something, despite the fact that I AM a player, and not even a part of the team, and have openly disagreed with members of it or a few practices on more than one occasion.
I know that there are a ton of people who are afraid to post lest they be ripped apart, DMs included (just as much as players...), because most replies are in offense or taking them personal, fueling the negative outlook. I hate replying to posts, I just do it because I have always been of the opinion that reasoned-out input is good, from more than one viewpoint. The general feel of the response is "no one asked you," but hey! I've always been able to deal with not being liked, as long as the accuracy of the subject is there.
When I look at the answers given by the few people that still try to reply to everything, and then at some of the posts that complain about them, I often wonder who is more hostile?
I have been slammed both to my face and behind my back, both in-game and on the forums, in tells, in character, in PMs, or accused of wanton hostility more than once on the forums, generally in a much more hostile manner than what I presented, annoying smilie faces and all, where people are jerks complaining about a DM forgetting say thank you an extra three times, and when confronted say "yeah so, that's how I am, live with it." Why the double standard? Oh yes, the official thing...why don't we just make it a courtesy thing instead?
The point was that everything I feel about it ("do I really want to post and sink the reputation further into the negatives? Oh well, I'm used to being disliked.") goes triple for anyone who is actually a part of the team, so to be honest, there is a larger reason that I have never applied for any of them...I would not want to be a public DM or builder on Layo if they paid me, because I can hardly post as a player. I feel like having my name on anything would be the death of me, and actually would probably hurt the team's reputation as well, so I would just as soon avoid painting my name to use as a scapegoat for free, and just continue to talk myself into my own hole. At least the ones that I dig are of my own making. :)
The point wasn't really to say, "hey, I'm bummed out too!" so much as, if we say it goes much more for people actually official, then we have players afraid to post for fear of being smashed apart by bloodthirsty DMs, and DMs/admins who are afraid to post lest any word they say be used against them by a bloodthirsty community. My observation in both cases seems to be mostly a few cases that have created a paranoid fear of the whole, and the whole "waiting until the last angry moment to speak up" thing. A lot of knee jerk reactions and lack of thought, a forgetting of living organisms behind screens and so on.
It just seems like everyone needs to knit back together in some way where communication can occur, or split off completely to where you have to fill out a form and send to the collective label just to make a bug report instead of actually ever speaking to anyone in charge.
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Try # 3
I am abrasive.. I will come off harsh obstinant.. angry... and down right mean... don't like it tough luck
I encourage you to give some thought, as to whether this is an effective means to communicate what you are thinking and feeling. In my experience, making people feel angry and defensive is not a good way to be heard, or get a point across.
AeonBlues
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I encourage you to give some thought, as to whether this is an effective means to communicate what you are thinking and feeling. In my experience, making people feel angry and defensive is not a good way to be heard, or get a point across.
AeonBlues
one word comes to mind
NO
I will be me... i can not control others, their feelings or how they respond to stimuli... Nor will I try... you either like me... understand what I am saying and take it as feeling-less words... or you don't... i don't care
Anarchy!
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I've had it with this thread so i'm done with it....
My attempts to accomplish something are ending in debates totally off topic, turning into a pointing fingers match and attempts to change my chaotic, free willed personality...
*sigh* they never learn
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You know, I think all of us, myself included, could benefit from THIS PAGE (http://www.layonara.com/faq.php?faq=layonara_rules#faq_rules_etiquitte). I know that from time to time, I trip and need to reacquaint myself with it.
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another note... had you actually read my post the bug was there for 3 days... I believe 2 +1 = 3
I see... so why didn't you report it on day #1?
I fixed this particular issue it as soon as I got home from work and could both verify and address it on the same day that a conscientious player made me aware of the problem. Now you are bringing it up and saying you knew about it 3 days before it was fixed? I'm curious...in your professional setting, does it help to not let those who could fix a problem know about a problem? Does that fly in a commercial environment?
As a developer yourself, can you fix bugs you do not yet know about? No? I didn't think so.
I understand only so many resources, and time....
But I also understand that players have the same thing and if i'm not mistaken... the players are why you do this.
I'm keenly aware of this, and when I'm not improving this world and I have time, I am a player too. All GMs are players here, as are everyone on the Project Team. Why is it you think we don't have the entire community in mind?
I'm also keenly aware of how much time I can't spend playing because of everything I am doing on the development and administrative side of things. And I'm not the only one. I do this because I enjoy it, and because this world means a lot to me. That includes everyone...the whole community.
I realize all too well that everyone has limited time. I myself may have played a total of 10 hours since V3 was released. Yes, really. So please do not presume to remind me of time constraints that people have. I am all to well aware of them.
So you have X amount of resources, and X amount of time (each day) to work on this project. You have 3 servers at least... though your webpage used to boast you were spread across more than that. There are very few people ever on some of these servers (planes for example) and any of them would be well suited as a test server to see how things will be.
A fair question, but do you really want me to respond about why? Do you want me to list how we had a hard enough time getting people to beta test the LSPM that they could do on their own time? Do you want me to list how difficult it really is to get people to take time out of their own enjoyment of playtime to work at play-testing a new module version? Do you want me to go into all the other reasons why this will not produce the results you think they will? I kind of doubt that you do, as I'm pretty sure you see everything I have written as a flimsy excuse.
I'm MetaPhaze on IRC and you probably don't remember it as it wasn't directed at you... It was more of a question of "how do i join this team"
and the response was about as great as some of these i'm getting now.
OK, I do vaguely remember that, and if the response was "wait for the applications" then yep...that's the only response we have at the moment.
This kind of offer is appreciated, but for very valid reasons it is something we will most likely not do. The most significant and hard-line reason for this is that the Layonara modules have been "stolen" at least once in the past when access to the module source was more freely available to those who could contribute (i.e. GM and Project teams). As a result, direct access to the modules is restricted to a select few. This probably will not change.
exactly what i expected to hear... no less...
another example of why some don't post.
Alright...I'm confused now. What does the desire to protect 1000's of hours of work, manpower and intellectual property have to do with why some people don't post? What am I missing here?
My comment as stated is the reason why we don't just hand the module out, nor do we even hand out our entire script-base to the Project Team. It is a decision Leanthar made a long time ago after he was stabbed in the back by someone who took the Layonara modules and started their own world with it as a base.
My comments are just getting excuses... no real work getting done.
Your comments are being explained. I'm not sure what you want to hear, or what more can be said.
Want to make a difference? Great! You don't seem to have any qualms about speaking up, so please, bring all concerns, bugs and suggestions to us in a constructive manner and we'll do what we can, as appropriate.
If I may point out, however, for all the problems you believe Layonara has, there has been little to no input or reports from you regarding such things. If I am mistaken, please let me know.
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How can being blunt be so difficult, despite the questionable wording?!
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exactly what i expected to hear... no less...
another example of why some don't post.
Alright...I'm confused now. What does the desire to protect 1000's of hours of work, manpower and intellectual property have to do with why some people don't post? What am I missing here?
your read too far into it...
exactly why some people don't post... because they know the answer
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*sings to calm all of the hurt feelings and anger*
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exactly what i expected to hear... no less...
another example of why some don't post.
Alright...I'm confused now. What does the desire to protect 1000's of hours of work, manpower and intellectual property have to do with why some people don't post? What am I missing here?
your read too far into it...
exactly why some people don't post... because they know the answer
Thank you for clarifying.
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it seems allot of people her ehave valid comment's and issues. Many times it's how people say things not what is said that is remembered. Even text canhave a "tone" too it. Since i'm on the board of directors in myoffice i'll use figures.
55% of comunaction is your body landuage
37% is how you say it ( tone ect)
8% is the acrualy words you say.
i can feel for a tech savy player who sees mistakes/bugs and actually knows how too fix them getting frustrated when his offers for help go unaccepted. i think i would complain after that also
i can feel for a dm/gm ect who do this for free getting a bunch of greaf over issues.
perhaps i'm my lack of knowladge of V2 content that makes me like v3. like i've said in teh post before over all my gamming experiance has been better with v3. How the sudded apperance of monsters spawing right on top of me has killed me a few times. i really lost no SS or any real money exp so it's no big deal.
too many times in this thread it seems people are more taking shots at eachother rather than actually dissucing teh issue's at hand. I have no dought there's a DM/GM or too that abuse there power, also there'splayers that abuse they system. it happens, teh best way is too use logic/facts to get your point across it's very hard to argue with emotion over logic and actuall win, you just end up looking like a fool.
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One surface area (directly adjacent to Vehl) where neither my Level 5 nor Level 9 PCs feels safe is the road through the mercenaries which leads to the Gloomwood. Going there does not seem to cause a problem, but despite trying to stay strictly on the road on the way back to Vehl, the mercenaries more often than not notice you and follow you through the AT (often long after you think you've made it through safely). Not sure if having an unsafe road is the intention there, but my poor Aeridinite cleric has given up clearing the Gloomwood of undead after having gotten caught and killed there twice. It's a little frustrating, since there's not many places a lower-level Aeridinite can RP their main clerical purpose in life, and the Gloomwood seems as if it should be a nice stepping stone between the Vehl crypts and the much harder crypts of Krandor and Storans.
I have not read this whole thread yet. I have to agree with Kirbiana here. That road is a little off. My 4th level paladin while traveling with a cleric of the same level (we were off to hunt undead) got creamed there and then when we tried to return to our graves (which were right on the road) we got creamed again from mercs that attacked us while we were on the road (this had been how that road has worked every time I have been on it). My 4th level pally even lost a SS on that road :( (now that is bad luck). I think the spawns are two close to the road and the spawn triggers and too close to the road. What I think is happening is that a party with run through with no mishap but thye will "wander" a little of the road, that triggers the spawns. The spawns begin to wander. the next party or PC to enter the area gets a good bashing.
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@twidget658
".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."
Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.
Oh yeah that cave :) I went in there with a mid to high level party there were 5 of us (my PC being a 19th level Barb/fighter) and we were able to get it done but it took a lot of healing, we lost one PC, and found it was only for copper :). My PCs comment at that point was that the price of copper just went up LOL. If this has not been done already, removing the acid shields would make it right in there.
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Wow.
Alright, as someone who has just read this entire thread from start to finish for the first time, I'd just like to say a few things.
It seems this topic has flown off the tracks. I think a large problem here is that people are taking player and DM frustration the wrong way. When someone expresses issues that are giving them a hard time in game, they are not degrading the team, the creator, nor the campaign itself, intrinsically. Getting into arguments about topics like, what's more important the DMs or the players, is just needless and ridiculous. People who are clearly frustrated and bringing their frustrations to light are being slammed for aggression and guilted for complaining when so many others spend so much time and money - and then they're slamming right back. It's a cycle and it's not going to end until the thread is shut down.
What I would like to ask is that we step back and take a look at the core of the matter. Some players are expressing various frustrations they have had, and a large part of what they get back is negative. This is the same for DM or team-member responses. You can see how this perpetuates the problem.
When someone expresses a dislike about an aspect of the server, they are not criticizing it and everyone involved in its creation and upkeep.
There has also been much talk about "us vs. them" in this thread, but some of what has been said has been self-defeating - people from both "us" and "them" seem to be pointing out reasons why it's the "other side's" fault.
I personally think quoting someone else's post, section by section, to counter-mine every point they have raised, is more often than not also a negative cycle.
Please, instead of questioning whether so-and-so has a right to be frustrated or complain, can we give this topic more constructive direction? Could we try to post possible solutions to perceived issues, or try to get some consensus as to what aspect of the death system could be re-examined?
*Edit: Some of the posts here also highlight and illustrate what was brought up about players fearing DMs on the forums. Some people are behaving as though your thoughts and opinions can be assumed as uninformed and argumentative simply because you are a player. I think it's not so much fear, but the feeling that your comments and opinions are worth less merit as a player that is the problem.
I for one have a question about the chances of stabilizing while bleeding to death. My Sorceress character has a higher constitution than my BardBarian, yet he usually stabilizes while she does not. Also, sometimes you die instantly - is this relative to the amount of damage received? Maybe not the best place to ask this question, but maybe something to do with stabilization rates would help the death frustration many players feel. There are several ways you can recover - saved while bleeding, stabilize, even then you don't have to lose an SS, etc. Yet it seems to happen often that we die, despite all these measures - perhaps this is an issue with enemies doing too much damage? I know if a spellcaster is unfortunate enough to take a hit or two in battle, they are dead. Now, I know they usually aren't wearing armor, but still - if one crit is all it takes..
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there are many servers with a rating higher than layo's
And i've found one where people take their time and RP just as well as on layo, granted the land is way bigger than layonara, less laggy and has the same amount of users online... the world is quite boring... but the players are very experienced RP'ers and very nice.
I expected more from you mr. arguement. where is your aguemetative spirit today you send me more arguement in tells than this....
i'm let down...
I'm not about to argue with you if you don't like Layonara - if you feel like this server is a let down and others are better... just leave?
I love Layonana and I ain't leaving til L closes the light, that's for sure.
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He's not saying he hates layo. In fact he said like six times Layo is his Favorite Server.... Why are you always looking for a fight Witch?
I'm not going anywhere I'll still pop on layo and RP, I am just giving the team time to work out the issues that are causing problems.
Look forward to RP-ing with you all, just not as adventurous.
...I will alway spend time on Layo it's my favorite server...
... Again, I am not LEAVING....
...I'm merely at wits ends watching my friends get tired of playing and looking for other servers... then comming to find me to say hey, come check this one out and we'll go here... I DO NOT WANT THAT FOR LAYO!...
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Ok I did not mean to start this huge debate. I was simply frustrated that once again I can not play for the little while I had because I was once agian dead and unable to return to my grave site, and that while before if I ended up dead I could at least craft with what I had in my pack.
You have never been able to gain xps (even crafting xps) while under the death sickness, it has always been that way.
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Can we not use this thread to argue whether Layonara is good or not when we all know we love it to itsie bitsies otherwise we wouldn't be here? LONG LIVE LAYO!
The problem here is that some people are feeling conflicted, they love the place but they are finding it is causing them more stress and frustration than enjoyment. What can we do about this?
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@twidget658
".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."
Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.
The only place I currently know where to find Greenstone is in the same place it was in V2, which has now gone from a level 1-6 area to a level 7-12. Greenstone is the lowest level CNR for gemcrafting and should be in a low level area IMO. I have not said anything about it because I was hoping it would be moved to the lower level starting areas around Hempsted and Vehl. I go in there by myself on a level 17 pc and have almost died quite a few times. I'm not complaining at all, because I think the difficulty is fine for 7-12 level parties. I just feel the greenstone needs to be moved, along with the copper. Perhaps put malachite, tin, and maybe one iron deposit down there in its place.
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I do believe they are working on moving it, this has been mentioned since V3's release.
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Yeah, it's the damage. Basically as long as your HP is above -10, you still have a shot. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 5, you'll be incapacitated but have a shot of recovery. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 50, you're dead dead.
At higher levels, people rarely bleed to death, as things do large amounts of damage at a time, so as far as I've seen its a good recovery thing for the lower levels where things are...well, icky and you don't have many ways to defend yourself.
I don't think constitution has anything to do with how OFTEN someone stabilizes, as I'm almost positive everyone has the same shot at that, but someone who can look would have to answer if there is anything besides Regeneration that can help with stabilizing.
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He's not saying he hates layo. In fact he said like six times Layo is his Favorite Server.... Why are you always looking for a fight Witch?
I'd like to point out three things:
1) If I was looking for a fight I'd aruge, not say what I did.
2) I did not read the entire thread, nor will I.. It is beyond my ability to understand what's going on here.
3) Why are -YOU- always trying to blame me? stop rushing ahead of yourself Shiff, it gets annoying.
That's all.
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The relocation of CNR is indeed something that's worked on... and maybe something that already has been done in some cases too.
Only one way to find out though... Exploring! ;)
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There's actually an overabundance of copper if I remember, I know it exists in at least one new place, possibly two. Greenstone was put in too.
Not arguing about the difficulty or anything related, as I haven't been through with a new character, simply that they exist in places other than V2 versions, that's all. I can't comment on how appropriate it is for the level range, just that it's different.
Edit - sorry on the lack of quotes in this post and the one above; the first one was made as I was looking at the second page and didn't notice the third page, so I didn't realize it wouldn't be directly after MJZ's post.
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I am going to make one further comment in this thread, and it is a general comment directed at no one in particular.
My responses here have been made with the intent to inform and explain. That's all. I did not respond to argue, nor to get into a debate about who is right or wrong. For whatever intent that may have been read into or perceived in anything I have written, I had no hostility or desire to discredit the other party. That's not my style and I do try very hard to make sure such things do not come across in what I write here.
I responded to address concerns and to explain...and perhaps let people know a little about what goes on, or should go on from my perspective. In my time here, and especially after becoming a GM, working on module development, etc., I have seen and heard a lot of incorrect assumptions regarding the GM staff. I even had some of them myself before I became a GM.
But in my experience as "regular" player and as a GM, I have seen rumors, assumptions, untruths and just poor behavior send anything from ripples to waves through the community. Generally, the difference between the ripple and the wave is that the wave builds up over a longer period of time, where as a ripple is usually released early and it fades away.
So for those of you who could follow my metaphore, the key thing that keeps a ripple from turning into a wave is that someone brings it up early, and constructively. By the time it gets to the point where someone is so fed up or angry or frustrated about it, the outcome is rarely positive.
I cannot help that people fear GMs or are afraid to bring things forth. I can only do what I can to portray myself in a manner befitting the trust that has been given me over the last couple of years. I'm not perfect, and I will mess up. Despite rumors to the contrary, I'm only as human as the next guy. Each day is a test of that and a chance to do better. It's all I can do.
On that note, I'm stepping back from this thread.
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....First thing to say, WOW. Frustrated is the perfect name for this topic. Maybe downright raging?
Okay, useless and smart aleck comment out of the way, I'll try to take this in a Christine style post and hope I can bring up some things and assist a bit in calming the flames. **dumps canteen over fire**
Right then.
The first thing I'd like to bring up is the DM spawning creatures on top of players. I'm completely fine with this idea, although I lost my first soul strand to it. I've been spawned on twice, killed both times, and both due to an amount of over-OOCing (which ticked me off a bit because I'm the one dying while the person who was doing it lived).
With that aside, the first time we were spawned on turned out to be a great impromptu quest. Kudos for that. It later even became a miniature series, and I always ran back to the area in hopes to get more.
The second time wasn't as good...We had a balor spawned on us, those who didn't run away in time were slaughtered, the end. That's the only fault I have with being spawned on...If it's done, I think a follow-up RP should be given. A balor doesn't just APPEAR in a cave and have that be the end.
My point for random spawning for whatever reasons? Please, just have it be something more than that. If RP is stressed, then I believe it is good form for there to be a reason such things happened. If not, then maybe a simple pulling player in wrong out and talking to them OOC.
I really don't think "intimidating" or "frightening" are good words to describe a GM. If you were one, how would you go about answering requests and other situations? I'm not intending to come off as "you don't understand" or anything, don't get me wrong. I'm sincere in my question because maybe an example of how you'd like to be answered in a GM reply for reimbursements may give further detail as to what you really want from them :)
Rants, control, player this, GM that...I'm just a kid here, so it's honestly hard for me to even begin fathoming bills and taxes, but I think the best way we can take it here is to give both sides a round of applause. Players, Leanther, GMs, we're all playing equal parts to a growing/dwindling community. Instead of saying WHAT we are, per se, I like to think of us as what we do. Players bring the opinions, the big dog keeps the servers up, and the GMs add in twists and changes, which are again replied to by players with opinions. Instead of one being more important than another, we are backed by another like a system of checks and balances. The RP, the "life"...We, as a whole, are that.
Hmm, hmm, what else did I notice...?
I think in general, we're getting our hackles raised about this from whatever frustrations. On every side! I think before someone gets icky or this thread is locked down or worse, it's best to step back and re-read everything that's being said while keeping an open mind about it. Tones are interpreted differently as allneal pointed out, and although we are ourselves, you do have to keep in mind that bluntness can come off as a more aggravating thing than helpful, and an attempt at explanation can seem an excuse. Either way, I'm playing peace maker here (or attempting to), and I'll admit to saying I'd really like to see us all go back to being descriptively helpful.
I'll edit as I see fit, but for now, this is what I have to say.
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Back to the subject of CNR accessability, this area can indeed benefit from some overhauls and balancing. I have noticed CNR shifting to become more scarce and dangerous to obtain progressively. These shifts are often in response to dedicated individuals farming areas too often and levelling in their craft "too quickly", which is an entirely relative term. For some "too quickly" is seeing a mid-level person solo haven for iron and gain 3-4 crafting levels in a week, though those that point this out always see the week and not the significant number of hours that week played by the unemployed, net-addicted gamer in question. In order to keep them in check, the CNR becomes more difficult to obtain and practice, and procedures are normalized to make that player level in crafting about once a week or so. This means that the player with the healthy social life who logs in just a few hours a week now must spend about 4-7 weeks for the same comparable crafting level, and is now totally put off by crafting.
The question I pose is this... "what is more rare in medeival society... an adventurer or a craftsman?". Like when you travel from town to town, there is always a... A) Blacksmith B) Seamstress C) Brewer or D) guy who fights ogres for a living,l can survive a ballista-shot to the gut and has a bank account with over 40,000gp?
When a well-balanced party of adventurers is being demolished every time they try and fetch iron, then logically we should be experiencing a stone age in layonara where we all live in thatch huts, use sticks instead of spoons and forks at the supper table, and the most common weapon being the club.
It has been stated many times before that "not everybody who plays has to be a crafter". And to this I agree. A player could not even touch crafting and go lvl 1-30 without even missing it. On the flip side however, I propose that Not everybody who crafts should be an adventurer. Lesser metals like copper, tin and iron should be in some way affordable and accessable on a craftsman's pay and capabilities... it should not be expected however that every smith in the land who can make an iron sword must be at least a 6th lvl fighter. I'm not saying that adamantium and mithral be anywhere near accessable for them... those are dream metals and should be only encountered by the fabulously wealthy merchant upper class and the odd adventuring smith. But copper, tin and Iron? if people of mid-level range are having such trouble obtaining those, then balancing is a very possible solution.
That's my 2 cents on the subject of balancing feedback.
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The relocation of CNR is indeed something that's worked on... and maybe something that already has been done in some cases too.
Only one way to find out though... Exploring! ;)
You crazy!!?!! I'm not going out there in the world, it is scary now! =)
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Wow.
I for one have a question about the chances of stabilizing while bleeding to death. My Sorceress character has a higher constitution than my BardBarian, yet he usually stabilizes while she does not. Also, sometimes you die instantly - is this relative to the amount of damage received? Maybe not the best place to ask this question, but maybe something to do with stabilization rates would help the death frustration many players feel. There are several ways you can recover - saved while bleeding, stabilize, even then you don't have to lose an SS, etc. Yet it seems to happen often that we die, despite all these measures - perhaps this is an issue with enemies doing too much damage? I know if a spellcaster is unfortunate enough to take a hit or two in battle, they are dead. Now, I know they usually aren't wearing armor, but still - if one crit is all it takes..
Yeah, it's the damage. Basically as long as your HP is above -10, you still have a shot. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 5, you'll be incapacitated but have a shot of recovery. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 50, you're dead dead.
At higher levels, people rarely bleed to death, as things do large amounts of damage at a time, so as far as I've seen its a good recovery thing for the lower levels where things are...well, icky and you don't have many ways to defend yourself.
I don't think constitution has anything to do with how OFTEN someone stabilizes, as I'm almost positive everyone has the same shot at that, but someone who can look would have to answer if there is anything besides Regeneration that can help with stabilizing.
For the math on it: Every character, regardless of Constitution and leaving aside things like Regeneration, has a 10% chance of stabilizing on any one hit-point loss when bleeding to death.
So, when dropped below 0 hitpoints, your chances of bleeding to death are:
- -1 == 38.7% chance
- -2 == 43.0% chance
- -3 == 47.8% chance
- -4 == 53.1% chance
- -5 == 59.0% chance
- -6 == 65.6% chance
- -7 == 72.9% chance
- -8 == 81.0% chance
- -9 == 90.0% chance
So, really, what you should hope for upon being struck down is "Oh [insert deity of choice], please let me just be one hitpoint under...". :)
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If it's done, I think a follow-up RP should be given.
Back in the day, it was common practice for the GM that did the spawning to appear after all was said and done and do a debrief. "You died because of...", "You all did great as a team...", "It is a good strategy to...", etc. it was fun, rewarding, and people actually learned fromthe experience. Aether (Dorganath) and Anansi (Rhizome) were the best at it from what I had experienced. It was the same creatures you were fighting but they just kept coming and coming. For one, it taxed your abilities. Secondly, you learned from the experience. It wasn't done out of malice or punishment, but for fun.
Oh, and recently, I had a GM (points towards Arbiter) do a little scenario with an ogre boss in the crowd of ogres. Yeah, my charatcer died (but was raised) but it wasn't the intent. I was role playing like my character would act and it got the best of her. It ended up being one heck of a time.
I would like to see the interaction come back. A hidden GM doesn't have to face the crowd, but when the GM appears and does a bit of OOC...it just helps any hard feelings at the time and removes any false perceptions. If necessary, the GM can port everyone to the GM area and have a chat right then (been there, done that and on more than one occasion).
Not all GMs are the same and stereotyping is not fair.
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The CNR and stabilization topics should be moved to its own thread so it is not lost.
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Amen to that, twidget :) Glad to see I'm not the only one feeling like something would be nice to have added along with the spawning.
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As to me never mentioning this before , please look at: NWN Discussions and suggestions/NWN Ideas-Suggestions-Request/Resting in Haven Mines thread.
While i did not start this post i did post #9, #11, and #13. The responses i got made me feel as if it was assumed I was complaining of my own situation and the fact that i was concerned with balance and fairness to the newer players was lost and I was repeatedly reminded of "my Haven Runs".
SO as to why I don't post , look at the response I got when i did try to bring this up once before.
I would also like to give "L" a big thumbs up for his "World Plot" start Sunday. Information on what is happening is good, the sudden shift and relocation with a "You are to assume It's always been this way" was most disruptive on role playing ability for many, I know we will adjust, but i ask your Patience and understanding from the players side of things.
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Ok people.....
Enough.....
Sniping at each other and at the staff is counter productive.
I started this thread in good faith to let the staff know that there was something that needed attention.
I DO NOT like reading line after line of .. blame and sniping and petty I have to put my nickles worth in.
Not a single post after this one. I dont have the authority or the ability to lock it... or I would.
the staff here has been very encouraging and willing to listen. They are quality builders and do a very good job at making this a quality place to play.
I am embarrased by the attitudes and mean spirited swipes made in this thread.
That is not what I intended.
Please stop.
Edit by orth: I believe you have every right to close the thread, so I'll do it for you. 100 posts in.