The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: jan on April 06, 2007, 08:32:29 AM
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Thought about this a long time and don't have a clou if it even is possible, but here goes*takes a deep breath*:
Would it be possible to change the monster spawns in ways they don't get impossible for fighter chars to pass?
I know this world isn't meant to be soloing and i ( when i joined) accepted that it is a low-magic world.
Over the time i found that it is a low-magic world with the drops,but there it stops.
Every-one that looks to to the server status from time to time can clearly see that the part off the world with the high end drops(east) is populated by :wiz/sorc/cleric and in some degree paladins and rogues that by means off spells and summons can survive there it seems.
Of course i am biased since i play a fighter type, but i'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks that in a low magic world "" spell-users"shouldn't be as powerful as they are here.
A while back there was a reply to a similar post i made ( think it was by Ice) that the spawns on east might get a "summon-killing thingy"
This would help of course, but in my opinion the problem is spreading .
Basing this on recent experience:
Giants all have the use off healing-potions and spells found at some shamans or witchdoctors take away the little aiding magic a non-spell user can put on him/herself.
Most monsters hit as fast as i do with my char( 5 times in two rounds) or more.
I'm not sure if this is a result off changing the spawns or simply the result off me having bad luck all the time,but it nearly gets impossible to go to places i used to go to,to get cnr's for my guild.
My suggestion is simple but i'm not sure if it can be done.
Instead off changing the dam/hit points/armor/speed monsters have, would it be possible to simply give them magic-resistance ?
With a specialised fighter that isn't really under-geared( not even sure if that's a word :) ) it gets harder and harder to live up to the things i was used to do for my guild and i fear that before long it will be the result that i simply cant get any cnr's for my guild while i'm on alone.
I can understand that monsters can use potions and that the shamans/witchdoctors learn new spells, but to me it seems weird i find a potion off healing( mostly cure crit wounds or lower) on 1 in about 80 creatures while,if my char turns for a attack of opportunity, almost half the giants i meet on Dregar use that time to swallow a potion when badly wounded/near dead.
Again, i know this world isn't created to solo , but to me it seems weird that a lvll 21 specialised fighter cant go around Dregar ( central) alone when a lvll 14-17 cleric or paladin seems to be able to do that.( not even trying to figure out what lvll sorc/ wiz cn do it alone since i think they can even solo it earlier but are not sure)
I am very interested in the opinions off the team on this and i hope i haven't stepped on too many toes *grins*
Jan A.K.A. Barion
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**bump**
Bumping this because i realy am interested in the answers, depending on them i will decide if my fighter char will have to take up another class , like many others already did, to be able to survive when i'm on at times that i'm nearly alone and the rest off the chars around are too low for me to travel with.
Jan A.K.A. Barion
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The point of not traveling with lower levels is not to give them a free ride. If you really need the skills they have, wouldn't that be another matter entirely? Just curious, like you.
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Traveling with lower level characters with a high level one should generally be avoided because of the fact that they would be able to get items/gold/XP (not necessary the last if they are far, far to the left on the XP curve) that they otherwise would never have the opportunity to.
There are the hard rules with the level requirements for each server, and there are the soft rules which basicly translated into common sense. No matter how much one justifies to bring a level 10 character to UD (necessary as cleric... etc...), it's still wrong. Same goes for, say, bringing a level 7 character to mine diamonds. Yes, those are probably the extreme cases but the point is that one should not try to push the lines.
As for weakening the spawns so fighters can also solo them? That's simply not going to happen.
What could be considered, on the other hand, is to find a way so that spellcasters won't be able to do that either...
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As for weakening the spawns so fighters can also solo them? That's simply not going to happen.
What could be considered, on the other hand, is to find a way so that spellcasters won't be able to do that either...
Not asking to degrade the spawns to make it EASY for fighters to pass them, just asking if the spawns can be made a bit more realistic with regard to the fighters.
I have a level 21 Fighter/Weapon master and had to spend every feat on things to get approved as one.
After that i tried to make a fighter character that would be able to make a difference in a fight.
The specialisations in the blade i wield give me 5 attacks in two rounds i think.
Specialisations ...not simple feats , but specialisations that since i took them , prevented me to take other feats for my character.
To me it seems odd to say the least , that giants with bigger weapons and slower reaction times can attack 5 or more times in two rounds as well.
They match my strength ( can live with that because i rely on rings and amulets and they have natural bonuses) and therefor do the same amount off damage i do.
The fact they all seem to have potions on them is a bit weird, but even that i can understand.
Cant understand however the few potions i find killing them since even i get lucky some times and kill them with two critical hits ( doesn't give them a chance to take a potion)
The fact you answer with "....can also solo them" gives me the feeling everyone knows the problem exists but the solution isn't an easy one.
As i said in the first post as i think it would help a lot: Make the monsters magical resistant...that way forcing the spell casters to tag along with fighter types if they want to go somewhere.
The resistance could be server depending: low resistance on west..bigger resistance on central and high resistance on east.
That combined with the thing Ice was working on ( making something around monsters that will destroy summons when they strike the monsters) would help to close the gap between spell casters and fighter types in my opinion.
The only problem i can see with this , is that the spawns ( to be able to be a challenge to the spell casters and their summons) have been upgraded too much by now.
Saying that because more and more often i meet monsters on central that hit my char half the time while i go around with an armor-class of 42 with my expertise on.
Yes ..envy is a factor when i write this ..seeing characters run around in places that your character can barely survive by his own while your own character is a specialised level 21 fighter and the other character is a level 14 to 17 spell-using one that avoids damage by using area spells and that way barely gets scratched...to me at least seems strange if magic is low in the world.
Of-course it remains a fact that the more levels a spellslinger gets , the more powerful they become.
In P&P sessions you can compensate the difference between fighters and spellslingers by items.Since the really good items that we have on Layonara are only dropped on east and the only ones able to go solo to east are spell users( and rogues thanks to the UMD ) therefor making those characters the ones with first pick on those items and only opening up the items to characters that have huge amounts off true once they finally decide to sell some in my opinion furthers the gap between magic using chars and non magic using chars.
*looks up and feels his fingers cramp up*"got a bit long ...:)
Hope i explained my thoughts better now :)
Jan A.K.A. Barion
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Now I got to comment on this, please do not increase SR of monsters the way I see it now it is allready too high some places introducing it on central giants is just taking it a bit too far. Instead of asking builders to find a way to stop casters from running amok I would rather suggest that the casters themselves would stop and think how they should behave.
Sure soloing can be fun and sure I feel like running amok and does it from time to time with Storold. But I don't solo most of the time I usually run with some others and have some fun along the way.
SR is just a pain to me seeing that most of my fun spells disappear and do nothing when I cast them. Instead I would probably be swift and simply just set my spellbook in stone and not experiment at all just run with the same offensive spells at all times.
So my general stand on soloing is just, don't do it if it feels wrong. Seeing people like say Barion or Storold solo most of west isn't really an issue because we have little gain there, but soloing central and east now that becomes edgy. Instead try traveling in a small group you being such a high level fighter I would suggest having a cleric or mage around for protection while someone like Storold usually brings a fighterish type to help him out.
Building more "fun" encounters instead of simply focusing on making soloing impossible for certain classes should be the main goal for the builders. I can only say that I would really love to see more spawn that demands more tactic from the mages and fighters than spamming spells and simply just clicking on monsters.
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@ Storold
I love to run around with others and do so most off the time when there are others on.
The problem that arises however is that i cant take low level chars along.
RP wise i cant go out off my way to help others that are in a different guilds to get things they need since my own guild needs the same things.
I know what you'll say now ...share...share the cnr's gathered.
Sharing is fine with me anytime, but since ( with lots off trouble ) i can get the things alone , why would i ?
Why would Barion help others become as good as those in his own guild ..maybe even better ?
I cant see any reason why he would .
The people on at the times i play are either in guilds or too low to let them tag along.
Many times spell caster have been asked to think how their char would act and asked to not go soloing most off the time.
I don't see any change by asking ...while typing this probably a sorc/wiz is soloing east again *shrugs*
Since the spell casters don't seem to learn i have the idea that the spawns have been adjusted to make it harder for them , resulting in fighters more and more being forced to stay home if no group can be formed .
I don't think this world was meant to be ruled by spellslingers ..if it was then it wouldn't call itself "low magic world "
I don't think this world was meant to be ruled by fighters either.
I do think this world was made to let people have fun and group up with others ..rping traveling along the road ...spellslingers and fighters side by side.
Its my opinion that NO CLASS should be able to solo ..or only able to it with extreme risk for the life off the chars risking it.
Could any one tell me what the difference in lvl may be to travel with other chars ?
Love to go out with others but since i have been reprimanded more then once by the team for helping too low chars i simply stopped that ..not wanting to have my fun spoiled by dm's getting angry at me.
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Jan, these are really good points. It has been clear right from the start that casters at higher levels are the more powerful classes. And what you say about east is very true, most of the parties you seeing running on east are majority casters and many many times there are groups of just casters. I have a friend who just got started on Layo, when he asked me about classes to play I said hands down Sorc or Cleric. My reason was that at higher levels he will no longer need a fighter type with him where with a fighter he would almost always need a caster with him. We do have to remember that for the first 10 or 12 levels fighter types rule and casters cant go anywhere without them. The problem arises when the caster gets up in levels they leave the fighters that got them there behind and join up with groups of casters to go do the super challanging stuff. You can seehow this can happen though. I have a few casters that I go out with and I am lucky to get to kill one or two bad guys in each encounter, the casters wipe them out (and that is fine with me). The fighters become clean up and really a good summons can do the same thing. Now if these high end monsters that can match a 21 level fighter blow for blow could also sometimes (randomly) cast a hard core dispell magic then things would get interesting. The no one would want to try to solo and remember if a group of casters spells fail (due to a area effect dispell zone) them they are dead meat in seconds where if they had a few hardey fighters with them they might make it out alive.
I really like the no magic zone in the rift it really pushes fighters to their limits and then when you get past that there is no way a group of fighters would survive the rest of the cave. So it is an area that demands a balanced group. I think east should have a lot of these areas, that would balance out the groups that go there.
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I think the discussion of whether adding more dispell-casting creatures or not has been up before, and the primary conclusion was that it would hurt fighters more than the casters themselves.
Imagine monsters starting to cast Mord's Disjunction. Who will the monster target? The fighter, naturally, as he stands in the front.
So... We now have an unbuffed fighter that goes down in the blink of an eye. Will the caster die next?
No, the caster will not. The caster simply casts Invisibility or Greater Sanctuary to leave the area unscratched.
Dispelling will surely make mages unable to solo... but the side-effect of what I mentioned is not all that positive.
Balancing is unfortunately not an easy task.
Though... What could be very interesting is if monsters started to use counter spells. Instead of having the drow mage casting Weird on you, he or she decides to target a random caster in the party with the counterspell-thing...
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I don't think this world was meant to be ruled by spellslingers ..if it was then it wouldn't call itself "low magic world "
From a mechanics view... a "low magic world" makes spellcasters MORE powerful, relatively, not less, because other classes can't rely on powerful items to balance the spellcasters' abilities.
Of course, it makes life a little tougher on that spellcaster at lower levels, but once they get to a certain power level...
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My advice on the subject, is give it time. The fact that fighters are the second most humorously pathetic class in Layonara is well known. That magic users, especially clerics and mages totally dominate is also well known. The team is aware of this, that is why Layonara is moving from Low-Magic to Medium-Magic. This was stated in Leanthars initial post about version three, however it will take some serious time to do that roll out.
Normally I’m not patient with the team on this subject, but in this case from personal experience in that area it does take some serious time. Making items, especially re-making items is time consuming and more boring then watching paint dry. In addition to the literal making you have to figure out how your going to balance it in the first place. If your getting into items then your also getting into spells to scale them so that its fair across the board. So when they do the roll out they have to do it all at once, so once again give it time. Balancing isn’t so much hard, as time consuming, also remember it has to go through committee this takes plenty of additional time.
Now then for some bonus fun lets look at both sides of this fun issue.
Warriors – Help I can’t do anything, this is because I’m an item based class and my items don’t keep up with monster equipment, abilities, or overall strength. In the end I’m totally dependent on other classes, show me a little love so I can stand on my own.
Magic-Users – Help! My spell advancement ends at twenty or more effectively seventeenth. They never get better, sure I can get through any Spell Resistance by 25th but I’m unable to deal damage unless I have a summon and go into melee! This is because of insane monster spell immunities or resistances so it takes more then two spells to fry a creature! Also I’m stuck spamming the same couple of still useable spells till the Team wants to throttle me! Please give me some versatility so I can have style, and use beyond ‘buff monkey’ for the fighters with sunburst?
You notice that the magic users are a little more verbose, their problem is slightly more complicated because of the previous efforts to bring them in check. Previous efforts which everyone knows (but not everyone admits) didn’t work to well. The warrior problem is simple, but they are in the end a simple but elegant class type to play.
In conclusion, the team is aware of this problem. It has been aware for some time, and this major issue has been worked on for a while and is being worked on right now. It is probably the most important thing on the team’s plate at the moment, as it effects everyone. Leanthar stated it in his original version three post that we would be moving to medium magic, I can only think of one reason for that to happen and this is it.
So please have patience, when they roll out the big balance fix we can decide for ourselves. If they don’t do a very good job, trust me I’ll be complaining loudest. I’ve been waiting longest after all and I have lots of pent up annoyance.
Give it time, patience is a pain to have and till then you’re a walking punch line but its all we can do.
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I think the discussion of whether adding more dispell-casting creatures or not has been up before, and the primary conclusion was that it would hurt fighters more than the casters themselves.
Imagine monsters starting to cast Mord's Disjunction. Who will the monster target? The fighter, naturally, as he stands in the front.
So... We now have an unbuffed fighter that goes down in the blink of an eye. Will the caster die next?
No, the caster will not. The caster simply casts Invisibility or Greater Sanctuary to leave the area unscratched.
Dispelling will surely make mages unable to solo... but the side-effect of what I mentioned is not all that positive.
Balancing is unfortunately not an easy task.
Though... What could be very interesting is if monsters started to use counter spells. Instead of having the drow mage casting Weird on you, he or she decides to target a random caster in the party with the counterspell-thing...
LOL Good point. But the part about how the rift caves force balanced groups stands.
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LOL Good point. But the part about how the rift caves force balanced groups stands.
Not if you can sneak too! *winks*
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Not if you can sneak too! *winks*
That's unfortunately touching (or crossing) the borders of the server rules disallowing bypassing creatures to get to the actual CNR and only fight the spawn present there.
Though... Not 100% sure of the exact decision for the no-magic area in the Rift.
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yes of course there are those that sneak past the no magic zone :( but really that just proves Jan's point. You see a pure ranger or rogue could sneak past that area at like 10th level or less but they would die facing the giants and drow deeper in. So you need to have one of those 5 rogue/everything else caster types to make sneaking past that area worth the effort. So once again it comes back to the power of the caster classes.
But really I as a fighter type player dont mind it, I know that wren is way better to have around then a summon :) he is more fun, is a good fighter, and a nice guy (but he does take a share of the loot). And when we go to med magic I bet the stuff for fighters will be great. Higher ACs, magic resistance, limited spell like effect items it will be cool and it will make fighters more useful to highlevel groups.
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From a mechanics view... a "low magic world" makes spellcasters MORE powerful, relatively, not less, because other classes can't rely on powerful items to balance the spellcasters' abilities.
From mechenical view ...aye ....from common sence ..nope.
Where does a sorc/wiz gets his/her spells from if its a lowmagical world ?
Low magic would mean that its hard to find scrolls and hard to find teachers .
I'll go with Ozy on this one, the team seems to be searching for ways to balance things out and i'll simply wait till i hear from them.
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Imagine monsters starting to cast Mord's Disjunction. Who will the monster target? The fighter, naturally, as he stands in the front.
This is not entirely true. The monsters attack the fighters because the fighters attack the monster. The second an arrow is released or a spell is casted...ALL monsters go out of their way to get to the woodslinger or wiggle finger. The monsters will break through a frontline to get to them.
Proven fact! I have played a ranger for years. Just look at his death count. Does he solo? Heck no! The tinkering device exploding on him almost kills him. Look at his craft levels. That is because I am addicted and have to play. When I am not in a party, I craft.
My balance...I also play a sorceress. Both characters have their own personalities. I am highly attached to both.
A certain amount of adapting is required for the players. But I don't think that weakening another class for the sake of making them as weak as another is the answer. Also, I don't think all things are possible or really deserve the required time that it would take to 'balance' ALL things out.
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As i said in the first post as i think it would help a lot: Make the monsters magical resistant...that way forcing the spell casters to tag along with fighter types if they want to go somewhere.
Jan A.K.A. Barion
You say this as if the casters do not WANT a fighter to travel along with them. The real problem is there are not many high level fighters. I blame most of this on the DT system and that, sadly fighters die a lot (EVEN when grouped with casters) because they are on the front lines.
Then we need to narrow this down even more as far as casters go. Only a cleric truely benifits from having a fighter with them, because the other casters can not keep the fighter healed. But again I will say that casters, me being one, want a fighter type with us at ALL times. Chanda, Cassandra, and me use to always complain to each other in tells that we needed a fighter of some kind BADLY when we went out, but there just were not enough of them in play. Then my wife made Bakee (fighter/barbarian) to help try and complete our group.
And you mentioned that this is a "known issue", and to some degree it is. That is why when a caster has a summons out, they loose xps on the kills. I refuse to go out and hunt with other casters that have summons out because of that =P
EDIT: I forgot you play a fighter/weapon master...Go find one caster out there who has traveled with a fighter/weaponmaster that would prefer their mindless summons over one.
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This is not entirely true. The monsters attack the fighters because the fighters attack the monster. The second an arrow is released or a spell is casted...ALL monsters go out of their way to get to the woodslinger or wiggle finger. The monsters will break through a frontline to get to them.
Oh, yes. That's very true and very noticeable if the monster is one of the fighter types.
But the thing is with Mord's Disjunction (and many other spells) is that the monster might not have a second spell of that type to throw at the caster in party. So... first spell is casted on the fighter in the party... The second spell... um... what second spell? ;)
Hehe... unless one stacks a monster full with Mord's Disjunctions? That would be quite nasty, I would imagine...
Beholders are quite fascinating creatures, though. Having one of those in the spawn is like to have a rust monster in the spawn. The battle suddenly becomes rather interesting!
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As someone mentioned above, a mage and a fighter or some combination of mages and fighters really don't make much of a party because a mage really can't protect a fighter from the nastier creatures out there. When the monsters start throwing out harm and meteor swarm and various other high end spells, you either have a cleric to cast Spell Resistance, or the fighters die. If you look at the spells available to mages, they can give a lot of nice buffs and protections against mid level monsters. They can protect themselves extremely well with shadow shield and spell mantle. They can outright kill a lot of monsters with Wail and Weird. But they can't really do much to protect the fighters.
The cleric on the other hand can protect and heal and can, through domain spells, pick up a few of the buffs that are normally only available to mages. Thus it seems like the cleric really is at the center of forming any party headed east. It may be frustrating for the fighter that the mages aren't running around with him, but it is the cleric that is the key to him forming a party. If as part of the spell balancing Spell Resistance was added to the mages spell list as some of the offensive spells were toned down, I think the mages would be much more useful in small parties of 3 or 4.
I think most mages would agree that Weird and Wail wouldn't be so attractive if there were other alternatives to cause meaningful damage in a high level fight. This really gets back to the overall spell balancing that Ozy talked about and I agree that it is a major project. I wish the team good luck in this project and I'm happy to wait for it.
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Who said the only way of protecting a fighter against spells is with pre-battle buffs? Counterspelling is another way. There are spells that would "disable" an enemy caster. Or you might outright kill the caster. Who said the mage should just sit back and let the fighter do all the fighting? It is a matter of playing your strengths and working together. And trust! ;-)
I strongly disagree with all the talk about making every class equal. This is not WoW or any other mindless hack'n'slash game. As a matter of fact, i would prefer the classes to be even more diverse. What is important for balance, is to make every class useful. And saying that fighters are not useful is complete craziness. I wouldnt like a trip through the underdark without a few fighters in front of me.
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I have always said the difference in the classes should be corrected. The fighter class is core and essential to the game, and it being anything but unrealistic. The explosion of "slingers" is and can only be explained by one thing.
Layo's low magic delusion, and unjust class discrimination is very evident and correctable with a few easy changes.
One that comes to mind is to simple tie the death thread system to the classes hit die type. Thus a slinger would have but four threads, while the current discriminated class would have the extra threads of their class (this of course would have to be done retroactively to make a difference to the world, (can you hear the slingers whining fighters, Good they now know how we feel)
The above solution would also have the effect of the magic users protecting their front line and making sure they are kept alive, Not just kept alive till the objective is at hand then letting them die (I've seen this happen on many occasions)
The fighter as i said is the core and most basic element of the game (and yes it is a game, not a chat room with pretty avatars) I mean did King Aurthur, go into battle with a army of merlin's, no the slinger was unique and thus was an asset to the fighters, not the skewed version we have here. In the lord of the rings was the battle won by a army of mages, or was their presence manifest in one or two beings the predominate force being the fighters and support classes.
Which brings me to gear, Fighters are restricted in what they can and can't use in this unrealistic argument of balance, when all that is accomplished is unbalance, class favoritism and rendering the core basis for the game moot. What as always struck me as odd is the fact that if we have all these super mages why are they not able to enchant gear for fighters, we have proof it does exists in the helms of armor and necklaces and belt of various types. But what of the shield and other gear a fighter carries, My point is this if I have a shield and can go to a mage and tell him what i want on it (as was possible in even the earliest versions of D&D), That mage would research the required componets and figure their time and effort and tell the fighter..."You want "X" on this shield, this is what i require, "X" coins, and "X,X,X,X components". This would allow for greater role play and allow the fighter to supplement their weaknesses to narrow the gap between the classes.
This of course bring us to the new age, unrealistic solution of level restrictions on fighter gear. I have tried to think of a real world equivalent of this and most i can come up with are absurd at least, case in point , Driving a car. Under layo standards a character could only, till they were 12 seasons old only be able to drive a compact car, to try to even open the door of a mid sized vehicle would result in god knows what (as this is never explained) Would the unlucky camper explode ? , would it discharge a devastating electrical shock ? These are questions i have of this, as it is known to me that drops are configurable, and stores are as well.....the excuse that we can't have a 1st level character running around in +5 plate is lame, and is the responsibility of GM's to catch such abuses and correct them. To remain at the current level of discrimination the only just action would be to retard the pace of which slingers get their spells , to better bring them in line with the restriction placed on the fighters at present. This of course would have to be done retroactively as well to bring the current explosion of slingers in line with the low magic persona that is alluded to when one reads the server info.
Now i know there is gonna be the mournful moans of those that have enjoyed this skewed playing field and many might be brought down to realistic levels with other players , but that is what is needed so as to make each of us rely on each other , not promote uber mage hoarding parties on east and central were the most basic and core element of the game is shut out and left to be nothing more than mage tenders at early stages and watch their protectorates wander off to glorious days as they are trapped to obscurity on east and occasional trips to central when a slinger feels like slumming it with the rift raft of the server.
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I came to this server because I enjoy roleplaying a character. Sure, there's a certain amount of class imbalance, so what? I would far rather play a somewhat less powerful character that I enjoy, than fret over whether the class I chose is as strong as other people's. If a certain class is useless, that's a problem, but I don't think that's the case.
Yes, there are arbitrary, and somewhat unrealistic game mechanisms, such as item level requirements, but I think that you can easily come up with RP reasons if you try (it's too heavy, I have not built up enough callouses, its arcane power is beyond my understanding, such an object of power is prohibited to one of my low rank, etc.) It's a lot easier to RP with the mechanics, than to try and rp against them. It's a game. If you are worried about being a powerful character, than play the class that you think is powerful. Otherwise, enjoy your character for what it is, and don't worry about what it could be if it were a different class.
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One that comes to mind is to simple tie the death thread system to the classes hit die type. Thus a slinger would have but four threads, while the current discriminated class would have the extra threads of their class (this of course would have to be done retroactively to make a difference to the world, (can you hear the slingers whining fighters, Good they now know how we feel)
The only class I've played on Neverwinter nights and understood the most is the wizard class. From my experience this class is the least likely to die in a battle gone horribly wrong. All good mages know that when the frontline dies it's time to either:
A) Scatter and run
B) Start saving people left and right with invisibility/darkness spells.
C) Summon a creature to distract the enemies while the rest of the group runs away to safety.
Or just do all of the above.
Knowing this I can't help but agree with your suggestion except the part about limiting the mages to 4 soulstrands.... Let's bargain for 8, mhm?
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Let me touch on the notion of "low magic" briefly, if I may.
First, let me say that I am deriving my understanding of this issue from Uncle Figgy's guide to magic in RPG worlds. (feel free to Google "Uncle Figgy" though it seems that while he is referenced many times, his original website is gone.)
Now, to qualify myself, I've played both fighters and casters extensively. I have explored a great deal of the world. I am familiar with crafting, magical items, item availability, etc. I am extremely familiar with DnD and NWN in general.
It seems to me that the original layout of the world was designed to be a low magic/high magic world. What this means is that the availability of magic is low (low magic), but magic itself is very powerful (high magic). Basically, getting your hands on magic items and making magic items is expensive and very difficult. The spells and potential abilities of magic items, however, are high in strength.
So, when Layonara was advertised as a "low magic" world, it meant that the availability of magical gear, potions, etc., was low, not that the magic itself wasn't powerful. In fact, really, the magic in NWN is powerful to begin with, so making a world using the NWN engine as a basis means you will have powerful magic, unless you limit spell progression, take out high level spells, etc. Essentially, unless you completely alter the spellcasting classes, magic in NWN will always be powerful. And as has been discussed previously many times, "we" aren't really willing to start totally re-defining the spellcasting classes.
So, when Leanthar mentions that we are moving to a "medium magic" world, what he really means is that we're moving to a medium magic/high magic world. Magical items and gear are becoming more available and it's less expensive to get more powerful items.
Now, because magic is so powerful, and we aren't willing to change NWN magic anymore than it is already, the fact of the matter is, and will always be, that casters are more powerful than fighters when stripped down to their skivvies. Magic is powerful, so those that can use it are powerful. Plain and simple. What does this mean? It means that the game itself is inherently unbalanced. It means that the classes are inherently unbalanced. It means that without a drastic overhaul of magic, and indeed the game itself, the classes will always be unbalanced. Always.
Does this mean that fighters are useless? As pointed out earlier in this very thread, the answer to that is a resounding "no." Casters always prefer to have warriors with them. It makes the fighting so much smoother and faster.
I'm pretty sure this has been suggested before, and shot down, but if you want to decrease the amount of magic in the world (not decrease the power of the magic, simply the amount), you can place restrictions on the number of casters that are approved, perhaps similar to the restrictions that sometimes come down on the special races and alignments (need to have played on Layo so many months, need to have a character of a certain level, etc.). But, as I've said before, that idea has been consistently shut down, in part because without the caster classes, there really isn't very many starting classes to choose from. Another option is to treat caster classes as prestige classes, but that falls under many of the same issues already mentioned.
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Thank you , you people are proving my point exactly. There is a problem and you admit it. It is not like the fighter classes are asking for special treatment , just a level playing field. Watching fighters beg slingers for buffs before battle, is what fun to you, you think this makes that fighter feel comfortable with their character that they have to beg for assistance from the slingers to be able to go into battle? This is what this means to you ?
I thought this server was to encourage group play and a sense of community? The current system creates division and dependence upon a select few. I have played both classes and looked at it from both points of view, the gap is vast and i can understand those that have attained the level of self sufficiency not being willing to give it up, but i ask you to try to see it from the other guy's/gal's point of view for a second. I don't want my sorcerer to loose any of his powers or be handicapped either, it's the nature of the game, but as is stated adnausium in these very forums "if it doesn't seem right or feels unrealistic, then it is probably best to not do it". Thus we are left with one of two solutions, three if you count blow smoke and say" we can't do nothing" 1) reduce the gap from the high side (ie reduce spell count or number of living slingers. 2) Remove restrictions and introduce class specific items to assist said classes to be able to close the gap with said high side players.
We know this can be done with a simple tick in the item creation tool and these items placed in environments conducive with the said classes, (ie wolfwood for ranger items) or as something we are using in a project I am currently assisting with, socketed items , to allow for player customization of said items, and yes the new age level requirements are in effect there as well , we are working on it and feel the level requirement can be removed as soon as we can target all areas and limit the level of the drops , a lot of work yes and worth it as well.
In closing, You yourselves admit their is a gap, we the fighters ask merely that it be narrowed, if not bridged. So we can stand beside you on the battle field not huddle around you and hope you have enough magic for all. For where is the dignity in that, and were is the fundamental mind set of the front line warrior, self sufficiency, pride in ones own abilities, without the myriad of buffs required to raid a goblin camp by a double digit level character. I know deep seated mindsets and sacred turf is hard to take and this may be a battle that will rage for months in these forums, but it is a fight worth the effort and the dignity of all is at stake.
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My earlier post was an objective one meant to help explain the issue. That being done, I now have a subjective rebuttal to Praylor's (and others') preference of "narrowing the gap" in power between fighters and mages.
I, personally, do not want the gap narrowed. So, naturally, here's why:
1) I knew the classes were unbalanced when I started playing this game. I played it anyways. I like the differences, in ability and "balance."
2) I think having unbalanced classes is realistic. Setting aside the obvious that this is a game and fantasy and all that, we do strive to give it some touch of reality so we can connect to the world. And reality is unfair, unbalanced, and downright mean. But the funny thing is, we all still need each other, and in DnD, all the classes will need the help of the other classes at some point or another... otherwise the class wouldn't exist.
3) This goes back to how I like the differences in the classes, but I like that some fighters are insecure about the fact that in many situations they need magic, and more specifically a mage, to survive. I like it that some fighters feel the use of magic is undignified or degrading to their personal sense of pride. But since I like it, that means I don't really want to see that change. And really, if you look at it, by using magic items, the fighter is still indirectly relying on a mage's power, since most magic items must be made by a caster, especially the powerful ones. Of course, there are many fighters that aren't insecure about the fact that they need magic to win, and simply accept it. Perhaps such warriors realize that using magic and magical items to fight a mage is like cleverly turning the mage's primary weapon against the mage.
4) When it somes to monsters... well, they're monsters. In my opinion, they're supposed to be scary and magical and hard to kill. It's what makes them monsters. And since monsters are magical creatures, it makes sense, at least in some ways, that it requires magic to kill many of them, especially the nastier ones.
Overall, I'm not interested in trying to create some sort of balancing act between the classes. I like it how it is. Every class has its place, and to be completely honest, I know of several monsters that an epic mage can't solo, and, in fact, needs the help of epic fighters to defeat. Though, I do have to admit, those same monsters can usually be solo'd by clerics. Usually.
Disclaimer: I do believe in "balance" in so far as it can prevent abuse. I'm not interested in abuse any more than I'm interested in making all the classes "equal." I think y'all know what I mean.
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There's a lot going on regarding this 'issue', so don't think it unnoticed. Now I put issue in quotations, because I'm wholeheartedly with blonde on the idea that classes are not meant to be equal.
So let me give you two summarizing points to consider in all of this:
- Classes should retain their power, or flair, or whatever makes them exciting and special. This means that nerfs, in general, are not a fun thing for anyone playing that class. So empowering and bring out the flavor and diversity of every class I believe is a key goal.
Adversely...
- This is a group-play based server. The intention is that people rely on each other to survive to promote grouping up. That said, a group of 4 mages can do anything they want. A group of 4 fighters are no better off then just one. This is an issue that deserves some notice in general balancing and the way we build.
So, there needs to be an empowering of classes on all sides, not taking away from any of them. This is to keep things fun and exciting and not steal away from someone or something to meet the lowest common denominator. But, there needs to be an effect somewhere, somehow, which causes the reliance to shift in all directions for a group.
And in my opinion, the solution is there, it's being worked on, and it will make things better for everyone. So just have some faith in that. There's a lot of discussion on multiple aspects of this, and we all just need to maintain some faith that there is change coming, it shouldn't take away from any one class, but it should promote the core values of group play on Layonara. That's my take on what's happening at least.
Additionally, I'm not going to go into detail on this, but there is definitely going to be a time and a place for those lonely and neglected blades for those PC's in that feeble feeling, 16-23 level range. It's coming and it's going to be fun.
So keep your heads up, stay motivated, and polish your weapons. O.o
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I'm not really going to get involved in the details of this overall conversation. There are some good points, some not-so-good points and some simply impractical points. For now, I leave those groupings undefined and an exercise for the reader.
What I do want to say though is a few things:
1) The unbalance that is perceived at higher levels is exactly reversed at lower levels. Some may say "so what?" well...if you're going to close the gap, why not close all the gaps? But does this make sense?
2) Balance discussions of Class A vs. Class B come up from time-to-time. The problem is that comparing any 2 classes in inherently flawed because the proper, ideal balance involves using several classes in concert.
3) NWN is simply unbalanced period, because it was designed as a single-player game with multi-player capabilities. Because of this, magic was made very powerful. We've done a lot to reduce the power of magic, and sure, perhaps we could do more but then if we look closer, and surely if we start taking many of these suggestions into account, we see that it's not just magic that needs adjusting, but everything...and I mean everything...fighters, casters, rogues and everything in between.
4) The adjustments to items that are "just a tick in the toolset"...we have over 4000 items in our item palette...probably 1/3 of those are things like armor, weapons and other usable combat-related. So yes, it's relatively easy, but it's also non-trivial.
Some of the above suggestions, as I said, are good and valid, but the thing that needs to be understood is that by making those changes, other things get unbalanced, and so there's give and take.
Now please, continue the discussion, keep it constructive and don't take a lack of action on any of this as apathy or complacency, only in that it is a very big job for a big game world such as this, and in an all-volunteer effort, the teams do what they can, but we can't do everything.
Balance is a huge issue, and it's usually a process. This world has been balancing for years, and it will continue. So please, keep up the suggestions.
But a request...I sense some bitterness, some accusations and some general negative emotions being expressed in this thread. Let's please keep things constructive and objective.
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As someone mentioned above, a mage and a fighter or some combination of mages and fighters really don't make much of a party because a mage really can't protect a fighter from the nastier creatures out there. When the monsters start throwing out harm and meteor swarm and various other high end spells, you either have a cleric to cast Spell Resistance, or the fighters die. If you look at the spells available to mages, they can give a lot of nice buffs and protections against mid level monsters. They can protect themselves extremely well with shadow shield and spell mantle. They can outright kill a lot of monsters with Wail and Weird. But they can't really do much to protect the fighters.
The cleric on the other hand can protect and heal and can, through domain spells, pick up a few of the buffs that are normally only available to mages. Thus it seems like the cleric really is at the center of forming any party headed east. It may be frustrating for the fighter that the mages aren't running around with him, but it is the cleric that is the key to him forming a party. If as part of the spell balancing Spell Resistance was added to the mages spell list as some of the offensive spells were toned down, I think the mages would be much more useful in small parties of 3 or 4.
I think most mages would agree that Weird and Wail wouldn't be so attractive if there were other alternatives to cause meaningful damage in a high level fight. This really gets back to the overall spell balancing that Ozy talked about and I agree that it is a major project. I wish the team good luck in this project and I'm happy to wait for it.
Ok time to take down that myth.
I know its late but lets make a little comparison spell wise. All these spells can be casted on a fighter, from either a cleric or mages, to enhance them.
spell|CLeric|Casters (s/w)
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Resistance|yes|yes
endure elements|yes|yes
entropic shield|yes|no
protection from aligment|yes|yes
shield of faith|yes|no
magic weapon|yes|yes
Mage armor|no**|yes
see invisibility|no|yes
resist elements|yes|yes
Bull's strength|yes|yes
Cat's grace|no**|yes
eagle's splendor|yes|yes
endurance|yes|yes
Fox's cunning|yes|yes
owl's wisdom|yes|yes
ultravision|yes|yes
clarity|yes|yes
haste|no**|yes
Magic circle agains aligment|yes|yes
negetive energy protection|yes|no
protection from elements|yes|yes
darkfire|yes|no
greater magic weapon|yes|no
keen edge|no|yes
Magic vestment|yes|no
Stonskin|No**|yes
freedom of movement|yes|no
death ward|yes|no*
Spell resistance|yes|no
true seeing|yes|yes
mass haste|no|yes
protection from spell|no|yes
regenerate|yes|no
mind blank|no|yes
blackstaff|no|yes|
* can be given with a scroll
** Clerical domain can give it
What is a buff? A buff is a spell that will enhance the person it is casted on.
Taking that into account, and not taking into account the clerical domain, there is 10 buffs a cleric can not give vs 10 a mage can not give.
Why am I not taking the domain into account? Simple. One domain does not give the same spells properties as the other domain vs that all mages can use the full array of arcane spells (if the mage didn't make the same mistake i did with rain).
Also I did not take the healing spells into account in this chart for this reason.
What is a healer? it is someone who takes his time to improve the health of someone. Clerics have automatic healing casting ability (doesn't need to be memorized) Mages don't. Thats true, but with belts, potions and healing kits. ANY one can be a healer. On an other note I personally feel automatic casting is a double sided blade. If you use any healing spell you use one casting charge of an other spell of the same level.
So with this post that is quite late I am sorry, I was quite busy, i show that both clerics and mages are excellent party buffers, and both can act as healer too.
Heck with UMD even a rogue can be a party buffer and healer.
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I never really felt noncaster classes were that underpowered on this server, but of course my highest lvl character is a dwarven defender with almost 300hp. Sure it's nice to run around soloing everything as a wizard, but we're comparing the dynamics here of one class vs another, which is a systematic fallicy. Far more powerful than the battle cleric is the tough as rocks fighter, who just happens to have a Sorcerer, rogue, priest and bard in his pocket. Maybe the battle cleric can reach many places on his own that any of the other-mentioned classes cannot, but its a sure bet he's going to fail when a GROUP of those characters succeed. What's the point of being a fighter-mage when you can be a Bjornigar who knows Skabot? Shorter spell durations, less powerful spells and lower hitrolls and hitpoints is your biggest reward there.
Also, it was mentioned earlier that some folks don't bring drastically lower level characters with them as a point of not allowing them to leech. Do not underestimate the usefulness of a lower level character however, who holds key skills which you do not! I would gladly take big beefy Bjorn into many areas around Dregar with a team of 8-12 level rogues or wizards solely because I know how to organize them so that they will make a difference. You might scoff at the effectiveness of a lvl 10 rogue, but truthfully, a constant 1d8+5d6 damage is still a beutiful thing at any level. So long as the lower levels are doing most of the offensive work, I don't mind throwing myself intot he frontline and playing steel wall for them. Take Willy and Bjorn for example... lvl 18 defender and a lvl 11 rogue. Now if Bjorn goes out ot Hurm for goldmining, he can usually take 3-4 giants in a row before having to fall back and start healing. With Willy backing him up however, the ogres drop significantly quicker, and just by fighting smarter they can usually clear the whole area without healing more than once or twice. There truly is a profound difference in taking them along! My other friend Az-Ptol is around 10-11th level wizard... now I know, that sounds "weak". But the cold hard fact is that a fighter with a low level wizard fights much better that a fighter just by himself, or ven a high level wizard if he coordinates the tactics correctly. As a higher level melee combatant, I would GLADLY bring along a weak mage for mining or patrolling, even if he simply cast a handful of spells and stayed invisible to loot for me. He is still making a difference.
So take heart ye of low levels... you are still useful even if the anti-social purist casters sprinting off into the wilderness by themselves don't think so. Even low level rogues serve their purpose; it doesn't take all that many skillpoints or levels to at least flag a deadly trap so the party doesnt keep stepping in it!
Far more useful are those lower level characters with good RP skills! I would rather have a "useless" low level rogue with me with a good sense of humor and conversational wit about him than a jack-of-all-trades superstar hybrid caster. Even when you throw all combatative skills out the window, odds are the average 10th level rogue is still smarter and more silver-tongued than my dwarf, so on the off-chance we have an opportunity to parley rather than fight, the rogue pays his usefulness ten-fold.
Server rules aside, I have always and will continue to group with people despite their overall build and level. It's offensive to me to call such characters "useless", no character is useless. With a little training and skill in tactics learned, even a 2nd lvl commoner can be useful in battle, running around dropping healing potions on the party. The trick is to make certain that every character has a function in the scheme... sitting back and leeching of course is just poor form.
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Server rules aside, I have always and will continue to group with people despite their overall build and level. It's offensive to me to call such characters "useless", no character is useless. With a little training and skill in tactics learned, even a 2nd lvl commoner can be useful in battle, running around dropping healing potions on the party. The trick is to make certain that every character has a function in the scheme... sitting back and leeching of course is just poor form.
Repeated for emphasis and the fact that I can't press Thanks a billion times.