The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: Pseudonym on April 06, 2007, 09:34:07 PM
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Had an interesting conversation with another player last night about a character's intelligence.
I was playing a PC with an intelligence of 10 .... average. This character had concocted a plan to deceive some others that was reasonably involved/intricate.
I received a tell (good naturedly) from this other player saying that this plan was more appropriate for a character with a much higher intelligence. My initial thoughts were along the lines of probably so but the more I thought about it, the more that I begged to differ. I (RL me) had thought of this plan and I couldn't say I was more than average intelligence as measured by DnD standards. Afterall, I can barely speak one language let alone an additional 3-4 which is the quantifiable benefit from a high intelligence!
It amused me that we (I?) tend to think of ourselves as RL intelligence of 20+ and we (I?) have to dumb down our (my?) own intellect/rationality to play a character of less than 20+ intelligence. I don't believe we need to play characters with 'average' ability scores as less than average. Now I just have to work out how to RP my character with 16 intelligence ....
My point? None really, just struck me as an interesting idea, thought i'd share. : )
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Agreed... I was always told 10 INT was too low to really be the sharpest cookie in the crayon box, but honestly, I agree with what you say. Our INT scores, if we were DnD characters in real life, probably would never be over 16 (although we do have the frightening genius every now and then). I think concocting plans and such is fine for average INT characters... Heck, if it was a life or death situations, or you were an ambitious villain, wouldn't you spend many an hour writing one up? It'd at least be decent!
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Which brings up another question, for me. My halfling has 20 charisma. This should be apparent to most PCs after being near her for a while, from her words, comportment, appearance. As I understand it, charisma is a junction of your personal strength, social skills, and physical and behavioural attractiveness - at least the latter two should be apparent after several moments chatting. But PCs obviously cannot see this stat - so how does one effectively RP this?
She tends to get on the good side of most people she meets, and such, but I mainly consider her character rather than her numerical stat when interacting. The social skills bit is basically the only way I've been transmitting this very high stat - should I be doing something more?
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Intelligence represents a character’s memory, reasoning, and learning ability, including areas outside those measured by the written word... wizards, who must have keen minds to understand and memorize magical spells... Page 22 Players Handbook Second Edition.
Intelligence determines how well a character learns and reasons... Page 9 Players Handbook Third Edition.
Well that’s why I tend to quote second edition it actually goes into enough detail to determine something. Now then using these two simple statements as my own person reasoning I come to the conclusion. That a character of ten intelligence, a normal human being in which ninety percent of the population is, should be quite capable of plans. Even intricate plans if given enough time. However because these characters and people have only average intelligence they are going to make mistakes, big mistakes. They will not in any way be able to anticipate real life situations on the paper unless they spend a lot of time planning and even then flaws will happen. This into itself would be the biggest separation between a person of average intelligence and exceptional intelligence. The time it takes to accomplish the same mental task. Not to mention it can be said that they will forget key things. A normal person with a notebook can be as dangerous as a genius.
Wisdom described a composite of the character’s enlightenment, judgment, guile, willpower, common sense, and intuition. – Page 23 Players Handbook Second Edition.
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom is more related to being in tune with and aware of ones surroundings... Page 9 Players Handbook Third Edition.
Wisdom will also always play a key factor in plans. While intelligence may grant you the ability to create a great and detailed plan, and even perhaps remember the details. Wisdom allows you to go through with the boring parts, double check and clarify parts, simplify sections and notice errors, and take into account outside sources that can put the wrench in your plans.
A person with average or low intelligence and likewise low or average wisdom could come up with a great plan and pull it off. But it would take a great deal of work and would involve lots of dumb luck to avoid all sorts of pitfalls. See 'Video Game Heroes for Console Games – The original Hlintites.’ However that said you might have a brilliant plan on how to get a bunch of money out of the Lucindites by selling a fake relic of the Black Wizards. Your slightly above average intelligence coupled with some planning makes it look believable. Unfortunately your average wisdom score and average luck just don’t come through for you. Another natural schemer shows up on the scene and takes note of your attempts and decides that your blackmail fodder. Your plan didn’t take that into account, how could it? That fell 'outside the plan’ perhaps with a high enough wisdom (or a lot of time) you could have had backup plans just incase something like this happens. Better luck next time, assuming you live that long dear scoundrel.
Average intelligence isn’t into itself crippling towards the wayward planner, scoundrel or noble. However to achieve desired results much more time and effort has to be put into things, and sadly 'human error’ gets a much louder voice. The more clever individuals just have an edge, fortunately some time in the library studying logic and philosophy might just let you beat those pointy hat wearing, dress garbed, spell flingers yet. As for wisdom that can be a bit trickier, but for the laymen. Spend some time asking yourself 'how can this part go wrong’ and you might just outflank the predators in life.
Edit: Hat wearing not had wearing, can you wear had?
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You can wear had only if it's been custom fit for you. :)
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I think it is worth mentioning that there are many different aspects to intelligence. My spelling is horid ;) but I seriously doubt that anyone who plays on Layonara will best me at a game of Go. If you never played Go before, you would probably have to study the game for a good six months to even beat me with a 9 stone handicap.
The ability to memorize things is the most common form of inelegance among wizards. Creativity thinking, or music, or stratigic thinking could be totally lost to someone who is considered a genius because they can remember anything they see in a book.
Average inelegance implies that there are things you are going to seem exceptionally smart at.
AeonBlues
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Which brings up another question, for me. My halfling has 20 charisma. This should be apparent to most PCs after being near her for a while, from her words, comportment, appearance. As I understand it, charisma is a junction of your personal strength, social skills, and physical and behavioural attractiveness - at least the latter two should be apparent after several moments chatting. But PCs obviously cannot see this stat - so how does one effectively RP this?
She tends to get on the good side of most people she meets, and such, but I mainly consider her character rather than her numerical stat when interacting. The social skills bit is basically the only way I've been transmitting this very high stat - should I be doing something more?
Thread I (and many others) found useful.
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Which thread would this be? :S Did you forget the link?
Thanks for the response, though :D
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Which thread would this be? :S Did you forget the link?
Ummmm, yeah, I did .... a bit *blushes*
http://www.layonara.com/roleplaying/109544-roleplaying-attributes.html
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Pyyran has an above-average intelligence... Quite a bit so, in fact. His Wisdom, likewise, is above-average. Does this mean he doesn't do stupid things? Not at all. Everyone rolls low from time to time. However, he does occasionally have brilliant ideas, and, most importantly, he learns very quickly. Add that to his truly exceptional brain-sponge for bits of creature and adventuring lore, and you've got a nice INT.
I've always figured that Pyyran's intelligence was about what mine is... After all, going by the IQ/10 rule, that's spot on (after two points of rounding up). So I apply every bit of mental trickery to him that I can make use of, myself. Then again, that's not saying much, especially when he's in the same room as Kell Ereptor.
Grok, on the other hand, is of TRULY exceptionally low Intelligence... The lowest that a PC can legally have on Layonara, in fact. He cannot speak properly, does not quite understand many very basic linguistic and logical concepts, cannot count at all, and... Is, in general, rather impressively mentally handicapped. I play him as having, overall, the mental age of a three-or-four-year-old. Emotionally, he is his actual age (somewhere around twenty-seven, after a conversion from Half-orc to Human), though his lifetime spent as a recluse makes him a bit odd, even for that (low charisma).
All of this makes him an incredible challenge to play - far more so than Tyeaan, my wizard who is vastly more intelligent than I. While I can send a Tell to another player asking what they mean when I as a player just barely don't understand, I have to make a tricky judgement call each and every time Grok has to figure something out... Even when it's just that someone's offering him something in exchange for something else.
That said, I drop a few mental anomalies into Grok's psyche... For example, while he cannot count at all, his understanding of numbers is perfect. He could kill two hundred twenty-three orcs, and when someone asked him how many, he could just drop coins on the table until he'd reached two hundred twenty-three. That said, he couldn't tell you that it was 223... Because he can only count to five, and he doesn't link those words with actual quantities. Also, he can take very good care of his weapons, with an attention to detail that might astonish you, while his armor rots away on his body.
Between Pyyran and Grok is Ceviren, who has an average intelligence (10). He can handle some reasonably complicated mathematics for the time period, thanks to his mother's tutelage, and can understand elvish (providing they don't speak too quickly), but he never got a clear enough idea of the language to speak it, himself, and wouldn't know how to square a number for more than an hour after you explained it to him the first time. It isn't that he's stupid, nor that he learns particularly slowly... Just slower than I'm used to. That said, he has a knack for enchanting, and other magical crafts (representative of his high Wisdom and Charisma scores).
*Shrugs.* Hope these examples help clarify how to play Intelligence, at least from one perspective.
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And then we reach characters like mine high int and low wisdom.
Jser has a pretty large int. score, 16. His wisdom is 8, but when I put on my trap disarming equipment, it drops to 4. Fun. They are close enough to me that it doesn't take incredible skill to roleplay them. I'll make plans, propose them, but will easily be swayed away from them. I'll outwit the theives, talk them into letting me go, but I'll accidently drop my name. I'll negotiate a contract, then slack off and forget about, be unable to concentrate and complete it. Not quite a stereotypical "absent minded professor", but close to it.
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I think that INT scores and their corresponding rolls are often used by GMs to represent what would likely happen to a high-INT character, even if we ourselves cannot portray it: a sudden flash of insight.
The standard that I (and virtually everyone else I've played with in PnP) use is this: if 10 is average intelligence, then it corresponds to an IQ of 100 (by definition, the average intelligence). That lends itself to division, and so character IQ = INT * 10. Now, as mentioned, it isn't impossible for an "average" INT person to come up with a clever plan.. but they have to spend a lot longer in the process, if they don't want it to be immediately transparent to the next clever person who happens along.
As for "different kinds of intelligence", I've always felt that INT was more of an aggregate thing. An idiot-savant, for example, would still not have an average INT, no matter how spectacular their performance in whatever their field was might be.
*meant to submit this last night, left it sitting open. Ah well.
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This is even further confused when one factors in Saving Throws as a measure of physical and mental stature. A High Level Elven Fighter with 6 Con who should be chronically ill will still resist disease and poison better than a High Level Mage or Rogue or a low Level Fighter with 18-20 Con. I think of this example like that fat wheezy guy who eats stuff off the floor all the time; sure he huffs and puffs after a flight of stairs, but his incessant poor hygiene has led him to developing the necessary anti-bodies to make his immune system impenetrable despite his poor health.
Then there are Fighters and Rogues who have low will saves but high Wisdom, who should be brave, but flee sooner than the low level mage with wisdom so low he could be clinically insane. And what about the naturally dexterous (20+) elven fighter who gets nailed with a fireball that somehow the fat, slow, out of shape rogue or bard with 8 Con and 8 Dex manages to do a perfect backflip out of.
This gets even worse when you reach real life examples that defy the entire rules system. One could feasibly be a very large, fat man who has tons of hitpoints well beyond others of his training, takes a huge beating with a high threshhold for pain, but still pants running more than 20 meters... so is that a ridiculously high or low con score? Do we then make the panting part of Strength, and reason that he's out of shape because his muscles are so weak? Oh wait, but he can lift 250lbs over his head... This is the "Boxing Homer" syndrome... from that episode where Homer, though out of shape in every respect, could get beat on all day long by professional fighters without much damage.
What about religious zealots that are clearly lacking wisdom to the point of insanity yet still manage to have enough willpower to defy all logic and still have iron faith? If wisdom is awareness in one's surroundings and in oneself, then why is history mottled with mad holy men like Rasputin who could perform miracles? What about mad Clerics of Corath or Cyric, gibbering lunacy AND casting wisdom based spells?
Or another example that I often thought about for bards... How does Yngwie Malmsteen manage to have a 50+ perform skill with an effective social charisma of 4? Bach went into violent outbursts and was highly unsociable, yet still he was a musical genius. Are both of these artists unable to cast magic in D&D tied to bard music, when clearly they rival many epic bards in their musical theory and sheer technical skill? How many band camp members were voted most popular in their highschool yearbook?
Oh what a conundrum.
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And that's why I don't majorly RP the stat points, only to some extent :) Enough so that it fits, no overboarding, but in the end... I think it's sticking to your character's personality and beliefs more than fully RPing stat points.
But that's just me.
*braces for a lashing*
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Yeah, it's why I wish -some- saves were just more directly tied to stats than they are, or not at all... Acacea has 16 CON and everyone knows she's been drinking since she hopped out of her mother and onto the streets of Hempstead, but mechanically she can't hold her drink for squat with the rolling of fort saves every time ;)
There's also people who have 6 dex but max tumble, come on! Minor ability modifiers are just kind of weak in these cases to me. :P
Edit - I know the whole training factor and proclivities to certain strengths, but really...
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Yeah, it's why I wish -some- saves were just more directly tied to stats than they are, or not at all... Acacea has 16 CON and everyone knows she's been drinking since she hopped out of her mother and onto the streets of Hempstead, but mechanically she can't hold her drink for squat with the rolling of fort saves every time ;)
There's also people who have 6 dex but max tumble, come on! Minor ability modifiers are just kind of weak in these cases to me. :P
Edit - I know the whole training factor and proclivities to certain strengths, but really...
Completely agreeing!
Another thing I find super irritating is how rolls for abilities are usually handled. Modifier + d20...
I mean... come on... Compare a int 20 wizard with a int 10 peasant. The chance for the first to beat the second with one of those rolls are... um... not as big as it should be! :)
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very true. Since the mage rolls 6-26 and the peasant rolls 1-20, the mage only has a net advantage of 25% or so with a full double int score, considering each +1 modifier on a d20 system bestows a 5% +/- spread.
This is why I love Shadowrun rules so much.. every stat point is another Die to roll, the DC is always 4, and the more "hits" you get, the better the result. The average human with a strength of 3 gets 3 6-siders to roll, aiming for target number 4, vs the Average troll who gets around 10 6-siders to roll for target number 4. Double the Stats are trule Double the Stats in that system.
Edit: For those interested in the infallibility and ultimate realism Shadowrun system, you can support Layo by buying it through our RPG-Now pdf sponsor site! *hint hint*
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Well, let's see, if wizard rolls 1, peasant wins on 19 rolls, if wizard rolls 2 peasant wins on 13 rolls, wizard rolls 3, peasant wins on 12...
so, (I'm assuming if they both make critical rolls, the wizard wins, I'm not really sure) we have (19+13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+3+2+1)/(20x20)=110/400
So the wizard has about 3/4 chance of beating the peasant.
edit: I keep on making changes to this because math doesn't come out right when I haven't had enough coffee.
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I'm in favour of a change to how raw attribute rolls are calculated: let it be d20 + (Modifier)d6. Then the lowest the INT 20 wizard could roll would be a seven, and the maximum would truly reflect someone quite that smart.
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Ah, heh... Well... I'm personally using (on my quests):
Modifier + floor(d20 / 5)
Which is:
Modifier + [0 to 4]
In case someone is wondering why they fail but their neighbour succeeds. ;)
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Consider for a second that a 20 Intelligence is, numerically, twice a 10 Intelligence. So, you could, if you wanted, say that means a character with a 20 Intelligence is twice as smart as a person with a 10 Intelligence.
Since a 10 Intelligence is average, we could say that about half the ideas of a character with a 10 Intelligence could be considered some degree of smart, and the other half would be some degree of not-so-smart. So a 20 Intelligence represents being twice as smart as someone who is 'not-so-smart' half the time. That doesn't mean the guy with the 20 Intelligence would be 'smart' all the time, or even almost all the time. It only means he would be 'smart' more often than the typical Commoner.
Adventurers, regardless of their levels, are not meant to be infallible. Wilma Wizard may be 'twice as smart' as Carlos Commoner, but even she can have a bad day or use faulty logic, and be shown up by Carlos with a much simpler explanation now and then. Jennara has an utterly amazing Dexterity compared to Peter Peasant, but she tripped up and got knocked into a tree not long ago. That's not broken. It's fun. It's nice to know that things can go wrong even in mundane circumstances, so that everything isn't an instant win.
Besides that, going out risking death for the things adventurers typically risk death for doesn't seem all that clever, so how smart can they really be?
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The statement "twice as intelligent" is extremly fussy. I tend to view the ability scores scales as scales based on normal distribution, just like IQ tests are in the real world.
A 20 intelligence character probably has an IQ at around 200, which is, with a quick glance on the internet, insane. To put it shortly, it means the character is smarter than 99.99999%+ of the population. :)
The non-linear progression is also the reason a 20 strength character can carry much more than twice the amount of what a 10 strength character can.
But, yes... even the smartest/strongest/most dexterious person can fail... Which is... shown by the 1 and 20 rolls. ;)
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I really don't think the whole "Intelligence is IQ divided by 10" thing makes any difference, and isn't a very good explanation of what's what. It just seems like a way to multiply a stat by 10 to get a new number that is equally as vague. If someone has a 140 IQ, what does that mean, exactly? Without a lot of specific information, it doesn't mean anything more than that he's been tested in various fields, and that his average score from all the tests says he's 40 points above a hypothetical average person, which is pretty smart according to the scale. That doesn't mean he's not going to say or do really dumb things now and then, and doesn't guarantee he'll say or do anything particularly intelligent. Isn't the Intelligence scale of D&D just as vague and/or explanatory?
Bell curve distribution is a fine example. I agree that's how the stats should be seen, but I don't agree that a 14 Intelligence should automatically be aligned with a 140 IQ on a standard chart. People with 140+ IQs make up a tiny fraction of a percent of the total population of Earth, but 14 Intelligence is not uncommon among characters on Layonara. I think it would be silly to assume that all the smartest people in the world became adventurers or dangerous villains. So, it shouldn't be too uncommon to find NPCs with scores of 14. Scribes in churches, village leaders, maybe lawyers. They could be all over the place. A 14 Intelligence isn't necessarily genius-level thinking. It could be more like a 110 or 115 IQ, maybe, if you insisted on a real world equivalent.
The stats themselves are what is fuzzy. What does a 14 Intelligence mean? It means whatever you decide and the DM lets you get away with. Speaking of that...
Ah, heh... Well... I'm personally using (on my quests):
Modifier + floor(d20 / 5)
Which is:
Modifier + [0 to 4]
I'm not questioning whether doing something like this is right or wrong. I do have questions about it, though.
Normally, to make something easier, the DM lowers the DC. It looks like you have flipped it around so that the PCs can have random bonuses that make things easier. So, in the case of an Intelligence roll, a character would roll d20 + Int Modifier + d5-1, right? Or is there no d20? Do you alter the DCs?
Doesn't that just make characters better than their stats would otherwise suggest? It looks like there is a chance for flashes of intelligence but not flashes of stupidity, meaning there is no built-in potential for a negative modifier. In other words, everything has a chance to be as easy as it would have been or easier, with fewer chances of failure, which makes the characters "better". Is that right?
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Oh, yes... Agreed that "Intelligence is IQ divided by 10" is not so very accurate due to the fact that... well... the world would otherwise be quite swamped by super (REALLY super) smart people. :)
What I normally tend to do is the following:
1. Ask you to roll, just as you would do normally. Say that you received 16 + 3. 16 is the roll on a d20 and +3 is the modifier due to the fact that you have 17 intelligence.
2. We take your roll and divide with 5, rounding down. So... The "roll" I use is floor(16 / 5) = 3. Together with you modifier you received a intelligence roll of 3 + 3 = 6.
Rolling 1 and rolling 20 will naturally have other effects (I know, true D&D rules doesn't have that) to symbolise that even the best/worst can do the exceptional... good or bad... :)
And, ah... hehe... yes... DCs are also scaled down, exactly how much depending on the situation, of course.
I guess, you could do the other way around and multiply the modifier with 5 to get the same desired effect. :P
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Cool. Thanks. I misunderstood.