The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: DMOE on April 21, 2007, 03:55:20 AM
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I had a very interesting IC religious discussion last night and it made me think of a few things that I’d like others to think of....also everything here is solely from my perspective of course which has occasionally been know to be wrong :D
I would like to point out before I do I am not trying to cause an argument but simply give the community something to think on so please don’t feel the need to justify your characters actions.
We have deity relations.....We have them for a reason....They are generally well known.
Clerics and Paladins are, to a greater degree expected to be zealots of their religion and as such, in their own way react to these deity relations.
This is not to say that all clerics and paladins have to froth at the mouth or anything but think about this.....
In RL you would not expect an average Roman Catholic Priest to go to dinner with a known Satanist so why in Layo is there often the attitude that a cleric or paladin who is vocal (without griefing) when presented with someone enemy to their faith is being mean and judgemental? Why is everyone expected to get along? (rhetorical questions here people!)
Also....While I understand that people wish to play their characters in different ways if everyone decides to judge on actions and not beliefs then eventually the deity systems simply becomes pointless....This is not to say everyone does do that but it is something we need to be aware of.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t party with those of enemy deity’s....My Misty Cleric will travel with Dezza’s Rolfi....And many a barbed comment is exchanged on these outings! I’m sure occasionally the rest of the party would prefer it *not* to be in the middle of a battle and that we’d just shut up and kill things but no one expects us to get along.
So next time a religious discussion is going on...think a moment before you join in...Oh.....Clerics and Paladins....KNOW your deity relations!! Ignorance is not an excuse.
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Theres a pretty nice deity chart in LORE which I converted to a printable version (Since said chart lacks the printable page most lore stuff has..)
here ya go, print and glue it on your wall!
(http://www.layonara.com/photopost/data/500/medium/deity_chart.PNG)
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Why is everyone expected to get along?
Can't we all just not get along? (I couldn't resist. I would've sprained something.)
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Sure, I try to not get along well with those enemy to my God and barely accept those unfriendly... but then... you'll need to know what the diety of some of those travelling along is... WITHOUT metagaming. And my cleric will not go and ask: " hey there, what god do you worship" ... what I do and that is maybe metagaming (any input on this would be nice) too is that when I cast a bless spell... I noticed those who don't benefit from it and will start to get suspicious, grumbling and such. And despite the fact that my char IS a cleric, he is also a fighter and I will not playing him overzealous.
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Part of the issue is that too many people seem to confuse neutral with unfriendly or seem to lack in knowledge with how their deity stands with another god.
Now I will use Mist as an example. Because DMOE plays a Misty as do I and she appears to be a much maligned deity.
There appears to be an almost universal dislike of Mist and the perception that she is an evil goddess. Mist is not an evil deity. She is definitely chaotic and it has to be said pretty uncaring about the peoples of Layonara. But the storm that sinks a ship can also bring rain to parched farmland and thus save the harvest for many and as result be beneficial to far more people than were harmed by the storm.
Now certainly the followers of the law, order and discipline gods can and should take that view that Mist and her followers are not someone to associate with. But they should not say that Mist and her followers are evil (although some may be). Chaotic, lawless (possibly) and undisciplined certainly (no misty ever has an organised sock drawer)
But Mist is also say Allied with Ilsare and friendly with Xeen. Both of whom are gods that appear to be mainly respected upon the server (despite their hedonistic tenancies).
So please people do take the time to understand how the faith of your deity relates to the faith and views of another.
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Another question related....
How a Voraxite would relates to someone following Kitharien?
According to the chart, Vorax is friendly to Kitharien... but Kitharien is enemy to Vorax? How is that possible in the first place? Same with Vorax and Goran. Vorax is enemy to Goran but Goran is friendly with Vorax? How my voraxite cleric should react when a Goranite come up to him greeting him friendly like and all?
Another thing... I guess that behind God relationship as shown on that handy chart, there is/must be a reason. Now what would be interesting is to know it too, not simply like, aah yes... Vorax hates Goran... I'll just shund and dislike all Goranites.
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Another question related....
How a Voraxite would relates to someone following Kitharien?
According to the chart, Vorax is friendly to Kitharien... but Kitharien is enemy to Vorax? How is that possible in the first place? Same with Vorax and Goran. Vorax is enemy to Goran but Goran is friendly with Vorax? How my voraxite cleric should react when a Goranite come up to him greeting him friendly like and all?
Well the Chart isn't in balance, just as it possible in RL for one person to like another more than they like you (i.e I have this thing for Minnie Driver, but she has this restraining order......)
Another thing... I guess that behind God relationship as shown on that handy chart, there is/must be a reason. Now what would be interesting is to know it too, not simply like, aah yes... Vorax hates Goran... I'll just shund and dislike all Goranites.
Think personalities here. Goran is a peaceful minded happy little chap. His mind is always elsewhere thinking about gear ratio's or what happens if you add brimstone to frationally distilled beer. War to Goran is a place where you go and get depressed because the ways of killing are so primitive. Gorans idea of a good get together is sitting down and discussing the intricacies of the universal joint and, "Did you hear what the gnome in Lor has made? no? Let me draw you diagram..."
Now look at Vorax. Honour, bravery and the battle field. And not some chaotic battle field. Tactics, moving evenly packed squads of heavily armoured dwarves to pre defined positions to do the maximum damage. Vorax is no day dreamer, he is an astute commander who understands the battle field and the glory and honour to be won upon it.
So when Goran wanders up and says, "Look I have a cool new weapon. Look I call it the Breech Army Knife and it has 250 different tools as well as knife, even one for getting scouts out of horses hooves. Once the smiths have perfected it, it will probably weigh less than 400lbs and we will be able to loose the cart that currently comes with it." Vorax gets annoyed. The battle field is the place for cold hard steel and not this daft stupid idea. And where is the honour in using that nasty flame-thrower device Goran invented?
Remember the gods tend not to be balanced individuals. Their lives are focussed on their portfolios and their portfolios define their personalities and attributes. So the gods hate what is against their personalities and portfolios
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There also tends to be the situations where OOC seeps in.
Why do people think everyone has to get along?
Because OOC its easier that way. Some people are either afraid to play out their character's deity relations, or else just afraid to be a mean "non Good" (More like not nice, because I know at least one very evil nice person) person. They tend to be of the belief that it causes grief for other players, so they in a lot of cases just don't bother. I am only answering from what I have been told though, so you may want to take what I say lightly.
Then there's all this in accordance to orth's post. Some people may just be so self conscious that they don't know where the line between "Good rp of a conflict" and "Okay this isn't fun anymore" is. So they just don't bother.
What I'd like to encourage is a bit of OOC verification:
"No hard feelings okay?"
"If this is going too far we can RP out of it okay?"
Etc. It makes things a bit more cheery on all sides.
In the long run: Don't be afraid to be mean. Don't be afraid to be your character. But Take other people, PEOPLE OOC, Into consideration. Use Common Sense :)
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I think I may have gotten into an IC discussion about the conversation mentioned in the first post.
Jennara (a Rofireinite) was asked by Tariana (another Rofireinite) if it would be incorrect behavior to treat people fairly and according to their actions rather than being prejudiced and lumping everyone in a religion together. Tariana claimed that she had a conversation with a follower of Mist who apparently insisted that she treat her poorly.
When was the last time anyone said to you, "Hey! Why aren't you treating me poorly? I can't believe you're being fair and polite. What kind of attitude is that?" I'm not saying that's an improper attitude for a Mistie, but it does sound screwy. Since Mist favors chaos, having everyone at each other's throat to one degree or another is a good thing, I guess.
To a Rofireinite, though, order leads to prosperity for everyone. Polite conversations are more orderly than arguments, and people should be judged individually in order to be fair and just. If a husband kills his wife, that doesn't mean all husbands are guilty and should be rounded up. If one Mistie is a criminal, that doesn't mean they all are (though that's probably more likely than all husbands being murderers, heh).
One of Rofirein's commands is to extend honor even to your enemies. It's possible to be polite and fair but still not trust someone or be suspicious of their motives. That doesn't mean that Rofies don't have different personalities or don't get angry or won't have prejudices. It means they haven't done anything wrong by not verbally or physically attacking someone for their religious preference.
I don't think every religion, or every character within a religion, has to be played the same, with arguments with the followers of enemy deities 'just because.' Jennara told Tariana that being fair and polite was not only reasonable and proper but also helped show others the value and benefit of an orderly way of life. People like fair and polite, generally. More flies with honey than vinegar, right? If you want to make the world an orderly place, like the Rofies do, you either have to win the people over by showing the benefits of order or clamp down and force it on them.
From there, this post takes a whole new direction that would be better for the Rofirein forum, really, debating the proper course for the church in an IC sort of way.
The point here is that people who are playing polite characters, even to their 'enemies,' are not necessarily playing wrong, for OOC reasons or otherwise.
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So next time a religious discussion is going on...think a moment before you join in...Oh.....Clerics and Paladins....KNOW your deity relations!! Ignorance is not an excuse.
Trust me I will be more careful.
Before Layo I had never played a game like this. Then my husband sucked me in to it. So I started out with something simple like a Ranger. Well after almost 7 months I started to get a little bored with playing just her. Then finally got my nerve up to make a cleric and got all excited about her. :D There is just so much to learn about all the different Deities and Alignments. So I am learning slowly. I have a lot of things printed out and next to me when I am playing her. But after reading a few of the treads recently I almost don't want to play her or at least not want to rp with her. :( Knowing me I would be nice to the wrong people. O.o
I would love to set in on a learning session on some of the topics discussed.
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Please be aware that I have edited my previous post. The final sentence of the second paragraph has been changed from "Tariana said that.." to "Tariana claimed that..." to more clearly show that the conversation referenced does not necessarily represent actual events.
I don't have any idea what really happened.
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Another question related....
How a Voraxite would relates to someone following Kitharien?
According to the chart, Vorax is friendly to Kitharien... but Kitharien is enemy to Vorax? How is that possible in the first place? Same with Vorax and Goran. Vorax is enemy to Goran but Goran is friendly with Vorax? How my voraxite cleric should react when a Goranite come up to him greeting him friendly like and all?
Politics? That is a tough one huh. Don't these "attitudes" represent political agreements as well as likes and dislikes? Though gods tend to be extreme, it is possible to like someone that hates your guts.
My character follows the Kithairien spirit, and gets along with Vorax & Toran followers right up to the point where we discuss philosophy, dogma, and strategy.
The Vorax perspective. You Kithairiens are a no good sneak that uses stealth and trickery to best your foes. You run from danger, and leave your fellow adventures dead on the battlefield.
The Kithairien perspective. You Vorax's are so stupid, you tell an enemies that you are going to kill them before you do. Like that ever mattered to a dead person. You chose to die with honer, when you could have survived and fought another day. If you brothers can't take care of them selves, then it's not your problem.
AeonBlues
My character likes Mist ;) Through Mist's destruction, she forces life to be stronger, generation after generation.
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Trust me I will be more careful.
Before Layo I had never played a game like this. Then my husband sucked me in to it. So I started out with something simple like a Ranger. Well after almost 7 months I started to get a little bored with playing just her. Then finally got my nerve up to make a cleric and got all excited about her. :D There is just so much to learn about all the different Deities and Alignments. So I am learning slowly. I have a lot of things printed out and next to me when I am playing her. But after reading a few of the treads recently I almost don't want to play her or at least not want to rp with her. :( Knowing me I would be nice to the wrong people. O.o
I would love to set in on a learning session on some of the topics discussed.
Uh oh... just remember it's your GOD that hates the other GOD...
Sure as a representive of your god you are meant to follow his ideals and have a general lower tolerance towards enemies and so forth - but as a cleric you also want to inspire love and respect towards your god in other people.. that means enemies too.
So showing a say... Corathaite the same love and care you'd show someone else if you were say... An Aeridinite (Cough) won't be as bad as Aeridin saving Coraths butt from Kezef the Chaos Hound, if we ever had such a hound roaming our planes, yes?
Now sure if said Corathaite steps up a moment after you healed him and kills the innocent Mr.Pickles.... we have a problem - but your character doesn't have to expect that eh? you're allowed to be naive after all.
HOWEVA!! that doesn't mean you should step right up and do it, no?
I mean while I can see an Aeridinite helping a Corathaite with the hope he might change the person... I can't see a bloody Voraxian doing that.
Note that this topic refers to conversation regarding deities between to enemy clerics rather than a normal every day encounter, if you're arguing about the world then go ahead and head butt them into submission.
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Note that this topic refers to conversation regarding deities between to enemy clerics rather than a normal every day encounter, if you're arguing about the world then go ahead and head butt them into submission.
Actually this topic was not started in reference to any conversation, rather a conversation sparked a set of thoughts.
Also it was not a conversation between two enemy clerics at all, it was in fact a normal every day encounter that started the conversation. Assuming you are referring to the topic of the thread as a whole and not the topic of your post :)
I would also like to point out that not everyone, even clerics wish to inspire love and respect towards their god in others.
My cleric does want to improve the general perceptions of Mist throughout the land but as for converting people, she is a battle cleric so unless someone shows an interest in Mist my cleric isn't particularly bothered.
This topic was started to raise a point regarding deity relations and make people think in general...
As I have seen on the server that someone from one of the 'good' religions can be rude to/act as the wish with someone from the 'perceived' evil religions (see Nibor21's early post regarding perceptions) without a single comment from others but the minute someone else acts on their deity relations towards someone from the 'good' religions then they are 'mean and judgmental etc'....Now yes...in a sense they ARE being rude and judgmental but it isn't something that shouldn't be that much of a surprise really!!! I mean it's been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years, before the person in question even began to worship their deity so why jump on them so to speak? Unless of course it's IC for you to jump on them :)
I do feel that we all need to be a little more aware of our deity relations and how we play them, both my original point and Gulnyr's point which is an interesting flip side....And of course any other interesting points that this thread provokes :)
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*shrughs*
Since non of us know the new dogma's of our deity's ( minor changes )
How about we simply play our chars as we always have done ?
I know that i am still confused on some change that is going on with the dogma of my deity , and i expect more are confused.
Lets simply wait till the information we all need is given and in the meantime play and have fun.
Is your char a jerk ? play it like that .
Is your char a polite fool? Play it like it.
After reading loads of posts on this kind of things i found that the more you read the more confusing it gets.
Who is to say that if your char has had a best friend that has gone to worship an enemy deity , that you cant still be friends with that char regardless his believes?
Just a question that pops to mind.
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In the question about good god vs. evil god. There is in my opinion many ways to play your character. And i am only talking about characters who have been given something from their gods here, like Clerics and Paladins. Not characters who for some reason have chosen a desired deity due to IC reasons and does not recieve any "gifts" in return from their god. (spells)
A priest, is if you keep it very simple an extension of the god. It is a person who teaches, preaches and judges others on the behalf of his god.
Not because he has to, but because he choose to. Somewhere in this characters life he encounters this gods religion and dogma. And because he sees himself in there AND believes, be has belief that his god is speaking the truth. He then walks aorund the world using these gifts he got in return from his god to aid/hurt others. Doing the work of his god right? If this priest...to some extend chooses to avoid certain strict or loose rules in his gods dogma, he will face the consequences at some point. Eh. lose his powers for a time or permanently.
I do believe that playing a cleric or paladin you should try and stick to these rules set by your god. Simply because you believe it is the truth, the absolute truth. There are others who might share the same thoughts as you in some ways. But YOU only you have his powers, because you have accepted your god as the ultimate truth and thus live by his rules.
That said it is fine for a character in my opinion to "bend" these rules i might call it. Because the Deity section cannot and should not hold information about every single encounter this priest will be tested on. So its ok to understand it the best way you see fit. Simply because we're all human and undertsand what we read differently. What should'nt be understood differently is the enemies of your deity. Someone who believes as strongly as you do in that his god is the absolute power, the absolute truth. But the things he values are the exact opposite of your beliefs. Say, you value life. An evil deity to your god might value the loss of life. If these priests ever meet and exchanges points of views. A fight WILL arise unless one backs off for some IC reason who knows why. But your enemy to your god IS your enemy not because it says so in the deity section, but because you have chosen to play a cleric and thus live by those morale codecs and rule sets. "yeah but i cant go around making people mad" It happens, and hopefully only IC, but again we're only human so that also happens sometimes.
My general point to this rant is: You play a cleric/paladin. You believe your god is the absolute truth in this world. in your life. You play by his rules. Not because you have to but because you want to. How strict you chose to make these rules is up to you. As a player, a human behind the screen having fun.
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Actually this topic was not started in reference to any conversation, rather a conversation sparked a set of thoughts.
Also it was not a conversation between two enemy clerics at all, it was in fact a normal every day encounter that started the conversation. Assuming you are referring to the topic of the thread as a whole and not the topic of your post :)
I would also like to point out that not everyone, even clerics wish to inspire love and respect towards their god in others.
My cleric does want to improve the general perceptions of Mist throughout the land but as for converting people, she is a battle cleric so unless someone shows an interest in Mist my cleric isn't particularly bothered.
This topic was started to raise a point regarding deity relations and make people think in general...
As I have seen on the server that someone from one of the 'good' religions can be rude to/act as the wish with someone from the 'perceived' evil religions (see Nibor21's early post regarding perceptions) without a single comment from others but the minute someone else acts on their deity relations towards someone from the 'good' religions then they are 'mean and judgmental etc'....Now yes...in a sense they ARE being rude and judgmental but it isn't something that shouldn't be that much of a surprise really!!! I mean it's been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years, before the person in question even began to worship their deity so why jump on them so to speak? Unless of course it's IC for you to jump on them :)
I do feel that we all need to be a little more aware of our deity relations and how we play them, both my original point and Gulnyr's point which is an interesting flip side....And of course any other interesting points that this thread provokes :)
*headbutts*
See how it works?
*runs away from DMOE's wrath*
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My general point to this rant is: You play a cleric/paladin. You believe your god is the absolute truth in this world. in your life. You play by his rules. Not because you have to but because you want to. How strict you chose to make these rules is up to you. As a player, a human behind the screen having fun.
This is a critical point here and one I applaude.
Going on from DMOE's comments regarding her Misty and my Rolfi we sometimes travel in the same group. How can that happen? Well there are a number of reasons for it.
In this case both characters can be 'very' stubborn. The Misty believes the Rolfi should leave and vice versa so they stay with the group and the group has to put up with them going each other at every opportunity as they travel. (In game this makes sense and OOC it makes for awesome fun for everyone)
It does not have to be PVP because we are opposites unless we choose to make it so. But really I know personally for me and I think DMOE feels the same that its more fun to travel together so we can ran't and rave at each other than it is to engage in actual PVP!
But..there are still times when my Rolfi has left the group and times when DMOE's Misty has done the same when it was just no longer justifiable that we would stay with them without it degenerating into pvp.
Lets face it, some people dont have a lot of time online, if you can justify why you are travelling together and keep to the attitudes of your gods in an RP way while having fun taking the micky out of each other without resorting to pvp..wouldnt you?
Personally I feel pvp is the very last resort in any RP situation and one should consider the repercussions very seriously before engaging in it.
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But..there are still times when my Rolfi has left the group and times when DMOE's Misty has done the same when it was just no longer justifiable that we would stay with them without it degenerating into pvp.
He walks away from Aeridinites as well as Mistys!!!
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 12 02:13:17] Tarradon Duvall: [Party] I bid you good day Valdemar. I understand that our orders view things differently and I do not beleive on this matter we will ever have agreement
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 12 02:13:48] Tarradon Duvall: [Party] I suggest you lead a pilgrimage into the Orcish tribes and see if they will listen to you. I advise having a large army on hand to rescue you however
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 12 02:15:36] Serissa Tir'ein: I don't need anything to think over ... i have lots to think about already
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 12 02:17:31] Valdemar Harredsunn: [Party] // come back for loot split you sooky lala
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 12 02:17:50] Eghaas Treebringer: [Party] //LOL
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Nov 12 02:18:07] Tarradon Duvall: [Party] // LOL nah he walked
Hehehehe
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Just wanting to gently bump and re-remind people that deity relations should matter.
Yes while everyone wants to have fun, party up and of course gain XP if you have chosen to play a cleric, paladin or especially a divine champion you need to be aware of your parties deity relations.
While every cleric/paladin will cast on someone unfriendly or enemy to their god on occasions, hopefully with good RP reasons attached no god is going to look kindly on it being done time after time after time especially if it's simply to buff the other person to survive a fight better. Although Aeridin might be the mostly likely to make exceptions for the purposes of healing.
A good saying on this is "By the Grace of God go I"....Your ability to cast comes from your god if you are a cleric or a paladin and while you may have a good IC reason to overlook another's religion built out of RP meaning you often travel together....Your god is not going to continually 'look the other way' if the blessings that THEY provide are constantly aiding those THEY consider enemies. Also the excuse of "I didn't know they were enemy to my god" should only really apply to the first couple of trips out. Not saying all clerics and paladins should preach or try and convert but surely they should want to know the caliber so to speak of those they travel with or not wish to inadvertently cast on those their god is unfriendly or enemy to....Also I'd like to think if you are traveling regularly with someone you'd make the effort to find out more about them in your 'normal day to day RP'. Of course....people can and do lie :)
Various good points have been raised in this thread....It is not about not traveling with people who are enemy or unfriendly to your god...It is about how you RP this. I say again, yes everyone should be here to have fun but let's not forget that choosing to play a cleric, paladin or divine champion brings with it certain responsibilities that shouldn't be ignored totally for the OOC reason of wishing to gain XP.
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J
Yes while everyone wants to have fun, party up and of course gain XP if you have chosen to play a cleric, paladin or especially a divine champion you need to be aware of your parties deity relations.
So before you travel with anyone you should ask them what their deity is?
Also how do you RP it if you don't know why your deity doesn't get along with theirs?
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Well how you find out is up to you....My cleric does ask before she sets out with a party others try and have it come up naturally in conversation.
As for how you RP it.....your god, the 'person' you are so dedicated to that they grant you divine powers to reward your dedication has a problem with another god....Does it matter why? Remember this is not 'modern religion' it doesn't have to be reasonable or completely explained. My cleric's attitude is that Mist must have a good reason for feeling the way she does and it's hardly up to her to question the will of her Goddess.
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I don't think you understand what I was saying. I'm not saying I question why they don't like another. I just don't know how to RP it.
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Well Muir is not a people person so she tends to be rude, derogatory or get into philosophical debates....
She will not heal them, raise them or buff them unless she thinks it will cause them internal chaos or gain her and therefore Mist an advantage.
Others simply don't interact with them much.
All I can thing of right now but feel free to PM me and I'll help more if I can! :)
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It is about how you RP this. I say again, yes everyone should be here to have fun but let's not forget that choosing to play a cleric, paladin or divine champion brings with it certain responsibilities that shouldn't be ignored totally for the OOC reason of wishing to gain XP.
@Lynn1020:I think this is key here. The fun aspect of the game comes with the conflict that each characters have with one another. That’s what I feel is the main aspect of playing a religious character. Its one of the reasons why they have friendly, neutral, unfriendly, hate type reaction on LORE.
DMOE is right in that its up to what your character personality would be. . . will determine how your character will act. My Aeridinite for example realizing that he has met a Corathite cult member would act hostile and may threaten the person based on what the Corathite was doing, whereas if he found out about a Voraxian or perhaps Shadonite (and knew that they followed these deities) would tend to act unfriendly and perhaps snide.
I think *its* ok to have a streak of anger, or cynicism, hostility or a certain personality towards something, someone. It’s what makes this world real and alive.
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Her question was really more about not knowing the reasons behind deity relations, and so having difficulty knowing what to say. Corath is simple for an Aeridinite - he's the extreme evil opposite. Two good deities that don't seem to clash too much can be confusing - what do you say? "My god hates you, go away!"
I was asked about something similar regarding Toran and Ilsare recently, where someone wanted to know if there was a story that could be told, or read, about why their attitudes towards one another are different. The same questions have come up before regarding other deities, but many times the answer is no, there isn't a particular reason or incident that occurred to make it happen. It's usually a conflict of belief or race or yes, likely something completely arbitrary that will have reason invented backwards instead of reason coming first. A lot of things happen that way.
The thing is, for a divinely gifted character, you worship your deity and their gifts in all things, as DMOE said. If someone has been training and praying their whole life before setting out on the road, and then meets someone and wonders, "gee, why doesn't my deity like this person? Seems alright to me..." perhaps they weren't that into it. If thought is put into it and the need is seen to be that great, then that's different, but disregarding them regularly because a mortal is not clued into the mind of a god seems to imply that the god would simply give up and move on from that particular conduit.
When I joked in answer to the question that perhaps it was simply that Toran was a handsome, charismatic paladin, and Ilsare was a rebellious elven goddess of passion, I was only partially kidding. That's as good a reason as any, really. Sure, Ilsare is a goddess of love, and they're both good... but Toran is lawful, does not stray from his duty, would never want to lose himself to any heady emotions that might sway him...etc. Perhaps he (or more importantly, his church or individuals within it) consider her a temptress, or simply what many other people who don't understand her see - a flighty elf with few things sitting in her head for very long, spending too much time at music and play when Toran is a man of war, upholding all that is righteous and good in the world, while Ilsare changes her harp strings and sings about it.
For an Ilsarian it could be different - while Toranites are notoriously ...paladinish... they are nothing if not passionate about their paladinly LG ways, which Ilsare (or again, more importantly, her church or an individual character) may find endearing, as well as his tendency to make every cause something to be championed - unlike her elven kin who are notorious for not sticking their foot into anything. Many a song has been sung about the virtue and valor of knights, I am sure.
I didn't read it anywhere, and to my knowledge there is not anything written about a breakup between the two or anything of the sort - though something might be upcoming that was written in hindsight to the relationship. I just looked at the two deities and thought "what would a priest of mine make of the relationship between his deities?"
I know you'd think that the churches would teach their beliefs on why certain things are certain ways, but unfortunately that is not possible with the current information available. So we mortals are left to contrive our own :P
Edit - after being asked, I want to clarify that I wasn't saying her only question was "why don't they like each other?" but more I was talking about the difficulty some have in expressing conflict when they aren't even sure where the conflict comes from. It's easy with an Aeridinite and a Corathite, but if Aeridin were an enemy to say, Katia, a cleric may find it difficult to roleplay an enemy relationship with a Katian without being given some sort of reason regarding the source of the attitude. The precise reaction and implementation does depend on personality, but it what specifically was said would to some degree depend on why they were enemies, for most. I the event though, that you simply cannot come up with any reasons at all...remember they worship them so much that they are granted divine blessings. Even if one doesn't know why...one trusts in one's deity - clearly they know something that one's mortal eyes cannot perceive.
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I want to weigh in with a couple of points.
I think deity relations is much more significant between devout and devout. Then devout and non divine casters. I think typically, a cleric of Toran is going to have much bigger issues with a cleric that worships corath, then say a mage that worships Ilsare. Lets face it, most non priests are only "easter" worshipers.
Another thing which applies mostly to the non divine casters, is that their character alignment does not necessarily reflect their deities. For example, True N Kithairien druid might be better received by a cleric of Toran then a CN druid would be. ;)
Personally I like running with a Toranite cleric. She will always raise my character when he gets killed, which makes for a big incentive to keep him alive in the first place :D
AeonBlues
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Easter worshippers don't deserve to have the name in their deity field :P
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I do agree you have to keep true to your diety relationships (especially if you are a cleric or paladin or the like.) On the other hand it should be a tool to lead to roleplay between characters instead of the reason to exclude people from adventuring together. There isn't a reason why a Toranite and Prunillite (or whatever you would call her) to be travel partners, but really the reasons any of us come together aside from either need of CNR or wanting to see new places on Dregar are often pretty thin. Even on quests (or especially on quests?) there's often no good reason why these six to ten people would be together, as they have as little in common as most people trapped in houses on reality shows, but that's just an aspect of the game that has to be accepted. There just aren't enough people playing right now to only stick with your own kind.
Also not every conflict has to be pure hostility... I'd love to see clerics trying to convert other party members, or going out of their way to demonstrate why their diety's so much mightier than the other (or more giving, or more evil, or whatever), or a hundred other things besides trading insults or worse, refusing to allow someone in a group based on their faith alone. Of course it all depends on the cleric and their diety what they would do (some clerics are under no obligation to even announce they are clerics, of course) so I'm not saying every cleric should be doing this, but still.. If you're anything but purely hostile, there should be a lot more you can do besides act as sworn enemies. "Neutral" and "Unfriendly" doesn't mean "hostile." Which leads me to...
... I would hope the relations system would be reconsidered and possibly simplified a bit for the next version of layo. The shades of grey between "allied" and "friendly" make for great writing in LORE but might be just too complex in the game itself, especially when the reasons for diety relationships aren't often obvious and clear (this is much more so for the ones that aren't about good vs. evil, like farming or crafting dieties.) I don't see why it can't be pure friendly/neutral/enemy, with good reasons why they feel that way. I also think "unfriendly" is misleading, as I said above, because many seem to take it to mean they're enemies when I don't think that's the case. Really I think a lot more dieties should simply be just agnostic to each other (they think the others are silly and misguided, but if they aren't a threat and have completely seperate spheres of influence, and there's not a known and written story in their history, then why would they be enemies?)
I know this might be a bit of a rude thing to say but I just can't accept "because the handbook says so", because the handbook was written to facilitate our roleplaying in the game and if we as followers of a diety are stumped as to why we are supposed to be hostile to another (other than "our diety has her reasons and we have to trust her") then that is a serious roadblock to our creativeness as players. When you don't know why you can't roleplay a discussion or argument, you can't explain to non-worshippers why it is so, all you can do is be hostile.
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I don't think anyone demanded hostility, really. It was said a few times that the way an enemy to the faith is handled would be character-dependent. DMOE's is, but that's because worships Mist and is a certain sort of woman that can't be properly identified on the forums. "Unfriendly." I guess. Muir-esque. The post is simply made because some regularly disregard the faith entirely when it comes down to it.
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No one said that people shouldn't travel together or that every interaction should be hostile....Just that nor should deity relations be completely ignored for the OCC desire to earn XP especially when it comes to using divine gifts on enemy/unfriendly deity followers.
I have only ever had my cleric thrown out of a party once for her religious beliefs, ironically enough because she refused to heal another party member who did worship an enemy religion. My character wasn't nasty about it....Just simply refused. She was told she wasn't welcome to travel with the party any more. That's once....in many, many months of playing her.
As I said....It's not about the traveling or being hostile.....It's about the not ignoring it to ensure people get the best buffs and actually RPing it in someway....In fact the way you describe is a good example of how it can be RP'ed and still keep party cohesion.
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My character never really played out a distrust of characters of a certain faith, mainly due to her wisdom being at a all time low she decided to be nice to all giving them all a fair go.
She was wrong, and she found out exackly how Corathians treat others, & as such is now completely distrustful of any who follow deitys of the same ilk.
Likely to bathe any in fire, althought they would probably like that hmm...
Anyway my point im getting at is, it really depends on who your character is, not their faith, think of your character as your first decider, then your deity.
Alas not all of us are religious zealots so we all take different paths to this area.
Personally my character warns the party first of potential flaying alive of Corathians, once she is satisfied she gives them her complete trust (She is not wise enough to see that trust is something to be earned rather then to be given).
Play it as you see fit, but one thing you can always do... If you feel the rp is offensive message the character with a pm, and most of the time you will find that they are just playing their character how they think is best.
We all cant dance around a bright rainbow together... deal with it.
I like making pointlessly long, & probably incoherent rants, no flaming please, just my 2cents at 2am :).
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Wait we can't all dance around rainbows together? My Ilsarian Cleric/Bard thinks we can! ;)
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iceyfire, it was really just directed at divinely blessed characters, I believe. So under that light, "deity first, then everything else" is just part of the character.
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Well to be true I was basing my post on when this was a bigger community, I doubt hostility and exclusion goes on as much now, but I did see a lot of it in the past (as a neutral good Prunilla druid getting just sheer hostility from Toranites)
But my real point to all this is that I really do think the dieties relationships should be reexamined before the new Layo comes out for the sake of new players. If the friendly/unfriendly categories remain the same then I think 1, they should be mutual (no more I'm friendly to you, but you hate me), and 2, dieties whose alignments and spheres of influence arent at odds with each other should in general be neutral.. As in, they aren't enemies or threats, they just don't care.)
Or, leave it as is, but explain why the relationships that aren't apparent are the case. Obviously Toranites hate Corath, but (going back to my example yet again, but there are many more) why Toranites should hold contempt for the halfing goddess of farming and motherhood isn't really clear to me. This is what I really take issue with, is that we are told to be "unfriendly" but aren't given any backstory as to why; this is in my opinion not good at all for role play. I am all for opposing factions and all that to spur arguments and role playing but it doesn't allow for much depth if all we have to go on is "our goddess has her reasons."
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Not "ALL Toranites do"
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I would imagine that some of these deity issues and any rationale behind a few of these divine relationships will be touched upon in the updated handbook. I can not be sure of that though as I don't have a role in writing it. As for odd and unexpected relations between deities, I know that they're extremely complex and multifaceted as well as long-stemming (a few at least).
Remember, with alignments there are two components - Order/chaos, and Good/evil. No doubt for some relations at least, both facets play a role in the opinion or view of one deity toward another. This doesn't help I know. It doesn't even answer the question. But then, who knows the ways of the gods *thunderclap*. I think it also goes without saying.
As I'm sure has been said (I've only read the last two posts in this entire thread, so sorry), play your character as best you can, depending upon a character type, adhere to the dogma as best you can, take it as a case by case basis. Sheer hostility of a Toranite toward a Prunilla-ite just due to her deity, is to me, despite the unfriendly status, a bit non-Toranish. But that's my opinion. If said Toranite was hostile based on her actions - a different story. But then I'm not going into this. Only word I can say (two words actually) - next handbook.