The World of Layonara

The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 03:20:29 PM

Title: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 03:20:29 PM: I googled the DnD view on shadowdancer summons and got this for third level shadowdancers...

I was just wondering how much of this is taken place in Layonara, or if it is at all. I don't want to step across any boundaries :)

Thanks.

"Shadow Illusion (Sp): When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability's effect is identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be employed once per day.

Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion."
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: darkstorme on May 13, 2007, 04:19:35 PM: It's been made clear before by the GM team that shadows in Layonara are not undead, nor intelligent, so I believe the Summon Shadow ability is RP-different from the DnD version.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 04:20:18 PM: It confuses me mainly because I've been in quests where they are intelligible and some where they are not.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: darkstorme on May 13, 2007, 04:24:17 PM: Sounds like this one's going to have to come from On High. :)
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 04:25:00 PM: Any ideas on the shadow illusion part of it?
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: darkstorme on May 13, 2007, 04:32:30 PM: I was under the impression that Shadow Illusion was discarded in NWN to be replaced by Shadow Daze, as their descriptions are similar - illusions fashioned from shadows. The former is more useful in an RP sense, but as the spell Silent Image does not exist in NWN, it was replaced by something that had a mechanical effect.

My own opinion would be that a Shadowdancer, in NWN, cannot create the Silent Image effect, since they have Shadow Daze, where DnD Shadowdancers do not.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 04:33:30 PM: So, on a GM quest, I'd have to use shadow daze to make an effect instead of trying a roll system? I just don't like relying on game mechanics... Prefer the dice :)
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: darkstorme on May 13, 2007, 04:40:00 PM: I would say, again, that making an effect other than daze that would affect someone in a non-entertainment fashion would be something that would require confirmation from Ed or L or another of their ilk before it could even be tried.

Shadowdancers play on the line between light and darkness, but they don't have absolute control over the shadows.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: J-ser on May 13, 2007, 04:40:32 PM: I've always thought of shadow daze as a branch off of shadow illusion. The same basic ability, moving shadows, one just creates an image while the other is creating an image to distract and dazzle the opponent.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: LynnJuniper on May 13, 2007, 05:08:19 PM: speaking as a player of an illusionist, this may be biased..

I don't think Shadow Dancers should be able to create Illusions, unless Illusionists can have the following Illusion spell:

Shadow Walk

Illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion) (Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow))

[table=head;sort=1a,2,3] Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Brd 5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#fifthLevelBardSpells), Sor/Wiz 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#sixthLevelSorcererWizardSpells)|
Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components): V, S|
Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime): 1 standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)|
Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range): Touch|
Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets): Up to one touched creature/ level|
Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration): 1 hour/level (D)|
Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow): Will negates|
Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance): Yes|
[/table] To use the shadow walk spell, you must be in an area of shadowy illumination. You and any creature you touch are then transported along a coiling path of shadowstuff to the edge of the Material Plane where it borders the Plane of Shadow. The effect is largely illusory, but the path is quasi-real. You can take more than one creature along with you (subject to your level limit), but all must be touching each other.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 05:11:26 PM: I thought Shadow Walk wasn't allowed and only Lalaith could use it?
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: darkstorme on May 13, 2007, 05:18:58 PM: I don't think it really matters. Shadowdancers can't produce illusions on par with illusionists, and illusionists can't vanish from sight at will if they've not got the spells memorized.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: LynnJuniper on May 13, 2007, 05:38:55 PM: Sometimes an Illusionist spell only depends on the GM though.

I know a few times atleast where I've asked the GM "I want to make an Illusion can I?"

Recently I've taken (on quests) to leaving a slot in each of my spell bars blank just to emulate a possible illusion spell (Rhynn's an Illusionist, the illusion spells arent available in game therefore i'm forced to assume that as an Illusionist she would've taken the time to learn each of them)
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Dorganath on May 13, 2007, 07:32:15 PM: First, PnP D&D mechanics in many cases do not apply either to Layonara or NWN in general. The reason is how much that could be done in the engine. Some class/racial abilities were traded for others, some were removed because other classes/races didn't have anything to balance, and so forth. The progression of precedence goes D&D 3rd Edition rules and mechanics -> NWN rules and mechanics -> Layonara rules and mechanics, with each successive one overriding those before.

Second, please do not get into discussions like "if class A gets this, then class B should get that". That just leads to a cascade of "I want". By all rights, if Illusionists get Shadow Walk, then Conjurers should get Dimension Door and a "real" teleport, enchanters should get Quest and Geas, etc. These aren't going to happen.

Shadow Walk is not a NWN thing. It was developed specifically as an ECDQ/WLDQ reward and let me tell you, it works far differently than the PnP version.

With DM assistance a lot of things can be done, if properly RPed, but let's please not get into a mindset of expecting that they can always be done because 3rd Edition rules say they can be.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 13, 2007, 07:37:57 PM: So, about the shadows, can they speak intelligibly with the master who summoned them or otherwise listen to spoken orders?
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: LynnJuniper on May 13, 2007, 08:00:49 PM: @Dorg,

Alright, I was out of line with that, I do apologize.

However, your answer did bring light to something I've stated in private discussions and at least once in IRC for a while. And I think the whole discussion only further warrents the need of what I'm about to request.

Different GMs do things differently. You say yourself that:

"With DM assistance a lot of things can be done, if properly RPed, but let's please not get into a mindset of expecting that they can always be done because 3rd Edition rules say they can be."

The thing is, the playerbase rarely has an idea what can and can't be done, and when they do they only discover that the idea of what can and can't be done changes from GM to GM.

I know it may mean more work, but a few ground rules of what can and can't be done (IE, using your example: Figments can be done, Gaes/Quest cannot) would be nice for us to have in our minds during a quest or any situation.

Thanks for your time , and once again I apologize for being petty and bringing up the "If he gets then I want"
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: LynnJuniper on May 13, 2007, 08:02:28 PM: I apologize wholly, Dorg for bringing up the he said she said. I'm currently working on a post that will serve as a reply/request based on this thread or a few other things. I ask for you to bare with me, when I do these things they often get edited a few times. :) Thanks
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Acacea on May 13, 2007, 08:37:04 PM: I'm not really sure on the summoned shadows bit. They are 100% positively not undead, but their level of intelligence I'm not sure of. I think if you spoke in Shadow it would understand and could even speak back if it chose probably, but only two Shadowdancers are able to communicate in that fashion.

I've seen them played with a basic understanding of the SD summoner even though they don't speak, and that seems to make sense, otherwise you have to wonder what they're even defending you for, right? Well...ideally. Sometimes. Usually it's more like...

Shadowdancer's Companion: "I'm a Lover, Not a Fighter" Shadow Fiend

The nimble dancer between light and shadows ducked another blow and stepped back with a grin, cloaking herself in the shadow cast by the very creature attacking her to circle around...then her eyes widened in uncertainty as the monster swung again, its eyes glinting with the light of the Weave. Its gazed pierced the darkness that hid her with the Sight; she had to make a quick retreat. Thinking quickly, she reached out again to the dappled patches of shadow to call one to her side to serve as a distraction as she made a hasty exit. "Aid me, I beg you!" she cried.

The light filtered out around a wavering form as the shadow appeared, and without looking back she made a break for it, hoping its ineffectual blows would take the attention from her... Then she felt the raking pain of claws slashing across her backside and she fell onto the floor in shock. Turning her head as she looked at her end, she saw behind the looming form a shadow standing still, making no effort to stand in its way... its uncanny eyes met hers and then it solemnly faded away as the blow came down... She had just enough time to call out, "Curse you, Shadow Friends...!" before she saw no more.

As far as Shadow Walk goes, anyone with some casting ability can make illusions anyway...it's a whole school of magic. Necromancers are certainly not the only people that can create undead. They're just the specialists. I've been behind giving love to wizard specialists as the elite in their schools of magic for ages, but I'm not sure what a question on SD illusions had to do with what is basically an illusionary teleport. SDs are also 'supposed' to have Shadow Jump, which they don't here and is a far better equivalent ...comparing it to a silent image is like "she can make shadows wave around so I should be able to teleport with it!" heh. At least compare lower-level abilities.

PS: I realize the bulk of this post was making fun of observation-only shadows, but it's one of those days! :P
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Talan Va'lash on May 18, 2007, 05:29:54 AM: There are SO many things that are lumped in as "Shadows" that you can't make really any true statements about the entire group other than that they all look "shadowy."

Two categories that is is IMPORTANT to distinguish between:

1 - Undead Shadows: Shades, Wraiths, Spectres, Ghosts, and on and on.
These are all evil. All unintelligent undead are Neutral Evil, They are mindless (most all mindless creatures are TN since they are unable to distinguish between good/evil, law/chaos) however, all undead are evil aligned due to the nature of the negative energy that binds them or animates them. Intelligent undead sometimes have more freedom of alignment, most being LE or CE if not NE.
NITPICKER'S NOTE: Bioware incorrectly made all their undead creatures CE.

2 - Shadow Shadows ("elemental" shadows if you will): These are from the plane of shadow and lean strongly towards TN, some are intelligent(ish), generally speaking, most aren't that smart.

-----

A shadow dancer doesn't have anything to do with undead (well, they might, but if so, it has nothing to do with the fact that they are a shadowdancer.) A shadow dancer always works with the 2nd type of shadow that I describe above.
NITPICKER'S NOTE: If you examine the shadowdancer's summoned shadow's character sheet in game, you will notice that its alignment is CE. The proper alignment of the summon is TN. This mistake is related to the last nitpicker's note.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Pen N Popper on May 18, 2007, 06:58:16 AM: I'd like to suggest too that while we can discuss this OOCly out here, ingame our PCs have no such resources at their disposal. If your PC believes the shadow they call forth is the shade of their great uncle, then they could RP that. (They'd still have to follow the OOC rules for it, like not having it talk in the voice of Uncle Bob, etc.) Some PCs may know otherwise and perhaps your PC will be convinced of their mistake someday.

I'll give the example of my SD's beliefs: Bumblebee believes the shadow he calls forth is just a viscous mass of the shadows he normally hides in. He attributes it to magic, not some being from another plane. He's never heard his shadow speak, he's never seen it fight particularly well (game mechanics causes his shadow to stand there 50% of the time), and he's certainly never demonstrated independent intelligence leaning towards evil. If I could possess him like a familiar (which would be super fun), then perhaps I'd have to adjust his beliefs to reflect that. Until then, it is what it is.

It is interesting reading this thread, though. Good stuff!
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Stephen_Zuckerman on May 18, 2007, 11:15:00 AM: Just a note... When you summon the thing in a fight, give it the command to Attack Nearest. It shouldn't just stand there, then.
Title: Re: Shadowdancer's Shadow Summons
Post by: Interia_Discordius on May 18, 2007, 12:53:26 PM: So, a shadow with a high enough INT would be able to communicate intelligibly with their summoner?

I know my current summon can't do so very well...It has an INT of 6, so I roleplay Kinai as speaking very slowly to it and being very direct.
"Follow."
"Watch door."
"Stop."

The general right click and pick radial commands.

I was moreso looking to the day she was able to summon an epic shadow or when and if the thing got a good INT roll or ever got a higher INT.

This is only asked because I was on a particular quest where Kinai had wanted her shadow to see what was going on with the "evil" shadows during a quest, and it stood there staring at her like it didn't understand (although, truth be told, circumstances were different and she had used a shadow summon from a book).

I'm fine with that, I'm just trying to see how things differ and how it should really work, and now since I can summon one, what exactly the changes are.

Thanks for the discussions, really, because I know I've been asking a lot about this class. It's just really hard to find the line though, so I hope everyone is okay with my questions.