The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Joyrock on May 18, 2007, 06:24:11 PM
-
Well it me again, I thought Movables corpses would be great after dieing and finding out you can't pick up the corpses of your friends.
The persons in party were shocked saying things like, "I never heard of that being done" and "that would be really cool" I can tell you it can be done, and I feel would help alot of things, I was told a DM can raise a player move them and kill them again.
But what about when there no DM on our busy? and even then that alot of work, and stuff that loses some RP like someone running while carring 5 bodys, but the old argument of I have 25 STR I could do that.
Well what I speak the corpses have weight and weigh a certian amount of the chars weight, to a max limit.
I think this add alot to MANY systems, and just alot more to DM events, one less thing they would need to worry about while trying to control things.
Well I was a bit worried about posting a suggestion after I only been playing half a week, and already have one. but Alot said it would be great. So I said why not?
Now I can make it, our my server I played on used this system for a very long time and so I know how to make it very well. It is purely script based so no Haks would be needed. I can do all the work and send it in, and step anyone through how apply the system.
basically this is how it works. When YOU die it places your corpse in a placed called "OOC: Corpse holding area" and places a liftable version of your corpse when the needed info where you did. well you can pick it up. and move with it place it down ,etc when you use raise dead it pull your real corpse to that location and raises you there. this system works PREFECTLY and has been used for YEARS. no bugs what so ever.
Now what happens to YOU while this happens? well you can wait in that black place or you can just respawn, like you normally do.
we used a place called a EB, you could talk to the keeper of eterinity, you could walk around the small place, it was all OOC so you died, on a quest you would just chat while you waited for a raise, if everyone died you just talk to the keeper and boom, you take your raise cost, and your back IG.
Now I know this is a great idea, and would make things more, allow for alot more things, but that not why i was worried about, the thing is I know this DM/builder team is pressed as it is with hard work and I wish to not add with it, by brining forth idea that many may like and cry out for it putting more pressure on them.
I am fully willing to meet you half way on the work and could get the whole thing put in with not to much trouble. I get everything ready send it to you, with full details about how to add it, and you put it in, you would need a blank 4x4 tagged to a certian name, and the whole dead place you goto might need to be redone, (just for looks after all who wants to wait in a pure black place?)
you add in the scripts which is not many, and boom you have a new death system done in a short time, proven to be bug free, ready for you to test out privately.
Well thanks for your time, if you like it and have any questions ask. remember it pure script based. willing to do as much of the work as I can for you on this, if there is a intrest.
And sorry I mean to suggest things when I am so new, I try to tend to avoid it >.<; Just when you have the know how to do things, and such a high understanding of NWN's when people say boy it would be nice I tend to say "oh that can be done, NP" nothing can be worse when some thought something could'nt be done can be done, or that it would need haks.
once again sorry!
-
Moveable corpses are indeed very easy (or rather easy) to implement, but if I recall correctly, it is intentionally not added.
The discussion has been up before and the decision for that also.
I cannot remember the arguments, though... Maybe a search will do the trick? :)
-
Its an interesting idea.
-
I also like the idea; "Wait For Help" could take you to the Death Void (the blank area).
I can't think of any reasons other than "We have to code it/check the code for it" and the current balance in how death is handled, to say nay to the idea.
There are plenty of reasons to say yes, in my opinion.
I can just see Pyyran, with his 12 STR, slowly dragging his friends, bit by bit, through the shadows out of a dungeon.
-
And then of course bringing them to the temple someplace for ressurection. It beats having to run halfway across Dregar or somewhere to get back to your friends, especially if you're a mage or some other class with a low strength and an inventory too big for your own good.
-
Heh...
"Hey Lex'or, what's news?"
"Nothing. You look beat. What's in the sack?....GAH!"
-
http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/109537-dragging.html
http://www.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/100378-carry-dead-bodies.html
Just to see previous discussion.
-
Thank you, Acacea, I couldn't find those.
Anyhow... I don't really see any negative opinions other than "easier to raise" and the argument about how much the object should weigh.
-
Thanks for the links, I don't see any argument to it, just not much response probly because they have other things to work on and, it does require work. Now the server they talked about with it working right, and the raise dead graphic, and the coprse that probly my old server we were the first, server to have such a system, and most others did not so great copy's. For example there no bug with trading. I can hand you the body and you will be fine.
I can promise a few things I can do the work, I can make it 100% not buggy. I can even setup a script for it as well for the temples to raise folks for a price, perfectly everytime that can be added to the coversation.
One nice thing of this, and it is mainly for new players. I goto the kobold I die with my group it 5 am, instead of me getting upset and logging, I can simply wait they can drag me out take the corpse to a temple, and have it raised for a costly price.
But I am happy, I am alive, and we can continue.
it adds a much more real effect then not being able to lift a body when I can lift a shield. it applys the weight. A good death system is pretty key to a server for new players, it one thing they look at when they first play because when your knew you plan on dieing alot.
it takes away nothing from the world, and add's a bit more touch of 'realisticness'
only thing I see a stone in the path so to speak, is the fact it takes work. Well I am willing to handle all of it, and send it in for you just to add, once you have it in the first module you just export, then import it into the rest done and done.
You don't lose any cost of Layo's death system the risk's of dying are still there. And it allows players to do more when there are no DM's on, being a late night player this is nice for me. it also makes the need for dm's for this no longer need and a DM can focus on more important things like killing the person dragging the corpse, then moving it for them.
Now I know folks said they think it would be nice and explained a few details of it, but I am the guy that has this, and it the orginal and the one know's works for sure. no bugs, no problems, perfectly everytime. And what more could you want then someone else doing the work, and being able to know they can get it back to you working 100% and fully able to be tested?
there alot of checks to make sure there nothing like 2 corpses always onlyone, there no way to avoid staying dead, your dead.... not even a reset because well layo says your location, but also the default starting area can have a script that if some how they get sent the the defualt starting area and have the death token, they get shot back right away.
we used this system for over 4 years, never a problem. if you wish to test it I am all for it, I ask you to try and break it, or find away around it.
-
Thank you, Acacea, I couldn't find those.
Anyhow... I don't really see any negative opinions other than "easier to raise" and the argument about how much the object should weigh.
the wieght is pre done, and can be to the amount the char was carrying you had 340 stones of 380 that char weighs 340 stones. they no arguing the weight because that how much they did weigh. as you said there not much standing in the way I just see work being done as it, and I fully understand that which is why I said I will handle all that and send it in for someto just put in to a test copy and try it.
only thing I really see is if it so great why don't we already have it? I would say the work, and the problems of working one out testing it getting the bugs out. but that what you have me for :) I can make it work just like it supose to. First time the right way.
Ask a few that came over with me, I can handle it, and the system works perfectly. from what I saw of those topics they just died, off in the busyness of fixing other things. if anyone has question you can MSN me, the idea is easy, but putting it in takes some work other wise every server would have it, but I am willing to do a great deal of the work.:)
-
I think this would be a cool idea. Especially if its not too hard.
-
Just for the pure RP aspect of the thing i think its worth implementing it. Beside the dragon called age is no more and I still didn't see any explication to the bindings
I'm just not sure why such a "carry the body" bit is needed as it is now. If you know your friend is "called" by the Great Dragon, then you (as your character) know that if you can't raise him he'll still likely come back at some bind point...
I also think that that was a bit (sorry there) simplistic an answer, if the respawn option was not so easy to hit then people would be a lot more careful about doing things.
In fact I'm actually wondering something here to push this to an other degree. since this would be made through a script, I wonder if it would not be possible to actually make that script that if a Cleric or in Party notion is true, then the person can not respawn? Now before anyone start flaming down a flame strike at me, I have myself RPied a few times waiting for an hour if not more, while other people in the party went and searched for help. Now if this system was in place and the carry body enable, then they could have simply dragged me to a temple and be raised there or raised by a cleric that happened to cross their path. Even more carry him to the wrong temple and he is not raised (you could also add anythings they would do to the corps of an enemy :D).
well just pushing a bit more the idea.
Edit
It would probably be less dull for the person to be able to see what is happening than to be in a black spot.
-
hm i had seen the system joyrock talk about .. and yeah i too would say it is better
1 . you dont get that screen up asking what you want "respawn, wait" , you basical just get ported to a small area where you can move around for a while and hope someone fall over the corpse or you party member are helping ..or respawn by talking to a NPC hmm i dont know myself but it maybe even possible to set a timer on those "dead" character so there is auto respawn with the cost if it take too long
2. it give more sence for others that you are dead as they can try to help by draging the corpse out of the danger zone and RP it and not just a auto respawn and meet the same party again and maybe at the time where they are rping how sad it is you died :p
and i had seen a script where a corpse is layed down infront of a NPC priest and you talk to it . then the NPC cast a raise spell on the corpse and the player get ported back to where the corpse was . i belive it could be work so the cost fit such a action here on Layonara ..though i am not a builder/scripter myself
and yeah the body do weight ...alot , there is really noway a mage or low strength character can carry it without moving slowly ...and most of time -real- slow. so ofcourse i would say rpwise the mage trying such thing is in for a broken back :p and yep you can give the corpse to a other character , i normaly just drop the corpse item itself insted of trading it
-
Ok give a yes or no if this will ever happen so I can find out if I am wasting time playing here, because I can't play with the current death system. I can't I keep trying but I can't. I lost 3 soul strands at level 5 in one day, I only died 3 times.
I was asked how is the movable corpses a need? this i show, because I can't play with the current unrealistic can't move the corpses system of DOOM.
It just keeps bitting me in the rear. I have offered to do the work, I have offered to make it work perfectly no answer on it. And now I die 3 times and lose 3 soul strand on a char, that I have always loved to play and is pretty important to me.
You want players? you want them to stay? then fix the corpses for the NEED of there sanity. I know it always been like that on layo, but most new players come from servers that have this, and I don't think they can take it because I have tryed very hard and I can't.
Final offer to do the work for you. because at this rate my char won't live to level 10, and trust me I am going out in partys of 5-7 people. I don't need to hear how I can stop dieing I know how. thing is, things out of your control kill you sometime like lag spikes, our being ported to the middle of the map to spawn a group of monsters that swarm you because no one in your party is even near you. and the non-movable corpse's are really, really, getting old I feel like I am on a server made in the BC's. please step up to the 21st century and put them in. Yes this is a rant but after today I think I deserve one.
Now I made up my mind, I won't put my self through this anymore. give us a yes or a no on this please, it seems it been in 3 topics and never got a reply the final one I offered to do the work. If it does not belong in Layo I don't belong in layo because my sanity needs it. I understand some things belong here others don't but a YES or a NO Lets us know.
-
It looks like you hit a spell of bad luck with the dice on that Soul Strand deal. It happens, and just about every time, there's confusion and bad feelings about the system.
I don't think we'll be losing too many players for lack of a movable corpse system. I'd like to see it, but I don't have the final word on it. But even if the answer's no... Well, sorry to see you go, but you'll likely be the only ones.
The thing is, comrade, we haven't gotten any official word on this yet. I'd like to see some, too, but don't make any big decisions until that happens.
-
I would love to see this idea put into layo. I can imagine Tialle dumping Katrina's dead body in a trash can. *giggles as she runs off*
-
I would love to see this idea put into layo. I can imagine Tialle dumping Katrina's dead body in a trash can. *giggles as she runs off*
Oh that would be to funny!!! :D I'm sure she wouldn't have to go far to get help with that. ;)
-
Sorry you got hit so hard by the soulmother. All I can say is it happens. I know my first character actually had the soulmother visit her 3 times in less than 2 days. I was not happy, but it happens. My first charcter didnt make it past level 14 before she lost all 10 of her strands. She was one of my favorites too and it made me sad. :(
It can be pretty frustrating. Especially if your grave is in a tough place to get too.
I do like the idea of the moveable corpses though...it sounds pretty cool. I can see my wizard (str 12) trying to drag one of her dwarfen companions who is carrying 500 pounds of ore tothe door. :o
-
I'm sorry you've had a run of bad luck but I doubt very much that the present soul strand system is ever going to leave Layo. Even if movable corpses were implemented I believe it would be implemented alongside the soul strand system.
While it is sad to see anyone leave the server not every server is right for every player and people need to play on a server that they enjoy. If the soul strand system takes too much away from your enjoyment then I wish you the very best of luck finding a server with a death system that doesn't.
As for losing players due to the soul strand system.....I've been playing on Layo for coming up on two years now....This system has been in place the entire time I have been on the server and still the server continues to grow so I don't see how we will lose players because of it.
-
Ok give a yes or no if this will ever happen so I can find out if I am wasting time playing here, because I can't play with the current death system. I can't I keep trying but I can't. I lost 3 soul strands at level 5 in one day, I only died 3 times.
I was asked how is the movable corpses a need? this i show, because I can't play with the current unrealistic can't move the corpses system of DOOM.
My condolences on your loss. Repeated low rolls against the Soul Mother do tend to be discouraging, but I am confused as to how having your corpse moved would have prevented it. See, the corpse is the shell, with your spirit being the chewy center. At the point you roll against the Soul Mother, you're dead. Being able to move a corpse would not have prevented the low roll.
If you are proposing that the Team abandon the Soul Mother, I am reasonably confident that isn't going to happen. A great deal of the mythology of Layonara has been built on the current system, and the system works. It may not be optimal or to your liking, but it *is* what we have.
Now I made up my mind, I won't put my self through this anymore. give us a yes or a no on this please, it seems it been in 3 topics and never got a reply the final one I offered to do the work. If it does not belong in Layo I don't belong in layo because my sanity needs it. I understand some things belong here others don't but a YES or a NO Lets us know.
Just a small note on this. I understand your frustration, there have been many players that have bumped up against poor rolls. However, issuing ultimatums in the form of "Do this or I quit" will likely not be successful in initiating change, and more likely to annoy the very people you are trying to convince.
-
I wasn't sure what was meant by Laldiien's first quote, either, but concede that Joyrock may be referring to dying again (and losing another strand) in the attempt to retrieve one's 'gravestone,' which will never be anywhere except the hostile location it was created at - whereas a corpse could in theory be dragged away by a survivor of the party, allowing at least a slim chance of easier recovery and no additional strand loss. If that's the case, you're still waiting. ;)
If it was intended to replace the strand system entirely, then yes I would have to agree with the previous two posters that it simply will not occur, whether or not other systems (like movable corpses) are added to complement it.
-
Some clarification on that point is, I think, necessary before anyone can give a Yes/No answer to the question.
As has been said, the Soul Strand system is in fact staying (though may morph a bit in the future), so if the hope is to get rid of that, then I can say the answer will surely be "No".
However, if it is to have the carryable corpses to prevent further chance of loss in retrieving one's grave, then the person you need to ask is Nibor21, as he's got his hands on the module reins at this point. I will advise though that he is neck-deep in a rather major module update at the moment, and he may not be able to respond quickly. I would strongly suggest sending him a PM.
As an alternative in the mean time, I would suggest waiting out your reflections, which will also remove the death effects (stat penalties). I have personally RPed all the way through a reflection cycle at a high-ish level (at 10 minutes/level). Also recall that after 10 RL hours (if not spent in-game), the death effects will expire as well. It may help...it may not. It's just an alternative option.
-
No I like the strand system, I would like to see that stay, what I don't like is being dead in a group of 5-6 people and there being nothing they can do to avoid you just clicking respawn like it is a single player game, it takes away a great deal away from this being a RP server.
It is auto respawn, regardless of how prepared you were aslong as you don't have a high level cleric.
nothing like running to your corpse walking the edges, when suddenly for no reason your shot into the middle of the map and set off a spawn. that beat you over the head and cause you to lose a soul strand. with nothing the party could do because there 40 screens away you die to a game glitch.....:\\
a example that won't ever happen? it did.
But if the party could have had my body when I died, and just stopped in a near by town to get it raised, that could have all been avoided. That and I could even RP'd them saving my life and owing them one. I don't even know how to RP running around after a respawn, so I just ignore everyone.
Just so much RP could happen with movables corpses, and so much frustration avoided with it.
death to glitches as a ghost can be avoided.
this was not a do this or I quit. This was a hey how about a answer because it is important to me deciding to stay here. Nothing is more frustrating when you offer to do the work for someone and you don't give you the time of day for a answer. it was also to show how movable corpses are a need, when it becomes the factor tending to why someone would leave, and others then it becomes a need. Not because I am trying to get my way, but the current unrealitic ancient death system is that much of a frustrating factor. I doubt this system will be changed because after three topics, and someone offering to do the work, regardless of what I do, or what I say I doubt it will be changed, but if I can, but if I can make this a need, and not a want in the eyes of those that say matters for the future of others, then it something I am happy to do.
It amazes me that with all the minner things done to systems, something as important as the death system has never been updated to this. that and when I offered to do the work, which I am told, and know from XP that the number one thing that stops things from getting done is the time and work. I have seen nothing but support for movables corpses, seen players make the topic over, and over never a say has been given on it. This I find is often away to avoid saying no, on something alot of people want, and to avoid upsetting them.
After dieing to a glitch that could have been avoided if movable corpses would have been in, lossing 3 strands 2 of them to going back and trying to get my grave. one getting stuck on a tile, other to the welcome to your death port. I don't mind the glitches, that require DM aid, if there was some way to avoid them being to costly to me the player, that did not require a DM, because I won't ever bug a DM. DM's are not replacement parts for glitches in the game. and when your up at 4 am you can't really count on them.
as far as Nibor21 goes does he even check his PM's or the forums? one would think suggestions and idea's and a topic that has been as popular as this a pretty important place to look when your in charge of what he is. if he is that busy, I don't think I can count on this for a while. Like I said I am willing to meet the project team half way on this and do the work, and make it bug free but some things are left up to them I won't continue to keep posting waiting for a reply that won't come. if they want this they can reply back, and I feel publicly to it would prevent the topic from coming up again in the future and would be the best.
I will PM him the link to this but that is all. I am sure I seem rather unfriendly, but like I said after three topics, and the offer to do the work and still no answer, after PMing this to a few people, and continuing to do try to get this through. I see nothing but support for this, I can see no reason a answer has not been given other then to avoid a no, to avoid upsetting those that wish it.
I understand the work load, and other things including RL the project team deals with, there good people and do the work for free. but I also have a RL, and I am also offering to do the work for free.
-
Ok give a yes or no if this will ever happen so I can find out if I am wasting time playing here, because I can't play with the current death system. I can't I keep trying but I can't. I lost 3 soul strands at level 5 in one day, I only died 3 times.
Oh do I know the feeling. Had my first 5 dts in like a 7 to 10 days period with Njord when he hit level 10. Rain was 7 before level 12 and 9 by level 15, hes still there though, alive and fighting where he can. Funny things i could call this a family curse of sort, as Njord is the son of Rain (without knowing it). But my other char at level 15 only has 3 strand lost and those were a while ago. And beside being the brother to Rain's wife, he hos not family blood in him that ties him up to Rain, which kinda proves my theory on the soul mother hating the In'Darsus for some reason:D
-
@Joyrock: He does check and is generally around, though the last couple of weeks he has been buried under a huge update. I do personally appreciate your offer to help, but you absolutely have to work with Nibor on that. There are many reasons why we don't just offer out the module to you or anyone who expresses a desire to do work for us. Primary among them is that it's bitten us in the past.
And for what it's worth, the death system has gotten adjusted several times over the years. I can remember 3 such adjustments that have happened in the last 2.5 years or so. No, it's not like every other world, but it does work for us, and has worked for some time.
I know it's not a definite answer...all I can say at this point is "maybe".
-
I know it's not a definite answer...all I can say at this point is "maybe".
A maybe leaning to the "yes" or a maybe leaning to the "no"? :D
-
Maybe leaning toward the "I am no longer the one to ask, so I can't say one way or the other"
-
I have no intentions on needing the module. What I offer is to do the scripting, the coprse hodilding zone pretagged and tied into the script, the Your dead waiting zone, the script to put on any temples you wish, if you wish that added to the temples to raise people for a price. all the scripts done. you merely need to import it and tie that in on your own. which I am sure you are capable of, after that run a build and it is done. I am sure there is alittle work needed on the project teams part like tieing the respawn point into the bind locations, and the edits they wish. but a majority of the work would be done.
I said I would meet the team half way, which is all's I can do with out the module, and I have no want or need of it. working with out it removes the need for trust which removes it as being a problem, it makes the work harder, and I work blind, but it has not been the first time I have had to do that.
And I am more then willing to work blind, if it removes the stone of trust from my path. Sure it means alittle bit of scripting is needed on the project team side of tieing it in to the current system. But I hope the offer of making something that was great but hard and time consuming, needing much less man hours, and uses the most advanced system. with out the need of hak packs, would appeal as something alittle to good to pass on.
And if that is not enough to sway for the work load needed, I will offer to remove some more by doing a job for the project team, be it build something, script something, or help them with a script there having problems with.
They can name there price on that one, and I am sure a few can tell you I am a scripter of some skill so my help will not be more trouble then it worth, it is clean, easy to understand, and properly tagged and dated. with clear details explaining what is being done and how things function for those working behind me.;) And I can make script systems to do some things that most would believe require haks, such as PRC's (they would not fit in this system, being you use haks al'ready but it is a example)
If you want a full detailed explanation of the work done, and what would need to be done after I sent it in to be tied in and added, I can PM you it.
-
We understand that:
A) You would like to see a "Movable Corpse" system implemented.
B) You can do all of the work for us that does not directly involve the existing module. (Scripting, etc.)
C) You would very much like an answer as to whether or not we wish to include a system like this.
Here are what you should know:
A) There are quite a few players and DMs here who would apparently like to see this sort of system included.
B) The one person who can say Yea or Nae is currently dealing with an immense workload that takes precedent to any suggestions, no matter how appealing.
C) That one person will assuredly work with you to determine if we include this system or not, once the next Version is out.
D) There's nothing you can really do now but send Nibor a PM with a link and a brief summary of the thread (as I really doubt he has time enough to read through this whole thing), and wait.
There you have it.
-
I am very much aware of my option's and what I can do. Probly more so then you, but thank you for dumbing it down and insulting my intelligence. :p
I think you forgot that I was not intrested in waiting for the next version being this version is dated to last 1-2 years.
As I said I know my options and I do not wish to discuss them further here.
I have made my offer, This person will get back to me, I will check the forums now and again, if he does not or does not in a timely manner I have a No.
being he does work for free, he has been in my shoes and such I am sure he can fully understand where I come from, having been in the same place he is I can understand where he is coming from when he comments. (which he has not yet, so please don't not speak for him)
He is not someone who can work forever, I am not someone who can wait forever. I have made the offer to repay the work and time he would need to put in by repaying him in man hours.
I have a RL as well, and I try to stay busy. I might be working on a NWN2 module by the time he gets back to me I don't know, I will wait and see, but I think in this topic I have expressed the want/need of a answer soon.
So please when you comment next, don't brush me off as a child or a idiot which your numbered statements addressing me does. I am not some angry child that wants my way or I am gone, I am a adult willing to work for what I want/need, and what seems many others do as well.
if a simple Yes or No can not be supplied in a timely manner, which since this has been posted, just by my self not counting the2 other times in the past they have had ample time to decide if they wish to have such things in layo.
with holding a statement is as good as a no, I have been in server politics for a long time.
If it a yes I will get to work, if it a no I will simply just leave, and oneday if they add it perhaps I will return if I am not busy simple as that.
It not a I want this or I am gone, it is a I need this or I can't play here. I play to enjoy my self, and the frustration from it cancels out the fun. and I feel leaving before I make any lasting friends to tie me down, and those that I came here with that wish to go with me is something that needs done.
I will just say I understand where Dorg is coming from, I talked to him before on this matter I was not looking for a reply from him on posting this, I was looking for the reply from the one that matters on this subject. I understand things take time, I have told people that on my own server, and I never held hard feelings if they felt that was to long and left, for not wanting to get attached to friends, when they find the server to frustrating to play on.
I came here to have fun and if I find it to much to dealing with the mechanics of the server, I will simply leave before anyone grows attached to me or me to them. Then I will continue my search for a place that has everything to suit my needs and those that go with me, if I can not find a NWN server like that I will just move on to NWN2.
Remember I came here with friends, and only because friends came. half them won't play here currently partly due to the death system and it became that way for me as well. I wish us to stay together and that is what I will do keep my group together the longer we wait the ones that like it here will wish to stay here, and grow apart from the ones that don't who move on.
So please do not judge harshly what I do mr. Zuckermen.
-
I think you forgot that I was not intrested in waiting for the next version being this version is dated to last 1-2 years.
One thing that warrants some clarification:
The "next version" is not going to be 1-2 years away. When I talk about the next update, it's coming soon, and it's going to be a "point" release, not a "major" version increment, to use the more industry-standard terms.
We're currently running 3.00.4. The next update will be like...3.00.5 or maybe 3.01.0, depending. If we do decide to add this, I strongly doubt that it will take 1-2 years to see it implemented. I know I'm not making those decisions anymore.
If I caused any confusion by saying Nibor21 was working on a "major" update, I only mean it's big, not a move to version 4.x.
-
One thing that warrants some clarification:
The "next version" is not going to be 1-2 years away. When I talk about the next update, it's coming soon, and it's going to be a "point" release, not a "major" version increment, to use the more industry-standard terms.
We're currently running 3.00.4. The next update will be like...3.00.5 or maybe 3.01.0, depending. If we do decide to add this, I strongly doubt that it will take 1-2 years to see it implemented. I know I'm not making those decisions anymore.
If I caused any confusion by saying Nibor21 was working on a "major" update, I only mean it's big, not a move to version 4.x.
that was in response to Zuckermens, wait untill the next version, which this is V3. which is planned to last 1-2 years, and is more what I believe he was hitting at.
-
I apologize that you see my above post as insulting. It was merely a summary of the thread, because I felt that things had been presented in a very disorganized manner.
-
no worries, when we post things we can never besure how people will read it, because writting is a system that makes it rather difficult to properly display our outlook on such things.
We may write something that we think is harmless but looked at in another view it is insulting to others.
I am sorry for even looking at it in a slightly insulting way.
-
What I was hitting at was, as Dorg said, the 3.x.x release - i.e. the next version update... Sorry about the lack of clarity there.
As to the rest, well, it happens. Good to hear there are no bad feelings on either side now that it's cleared up. :)
-
Some thoughts on our system of permanent death:
Yes, it is hard to lose a character you love. I cried for days after my Ayla died. On the other hand, if she had lived, I would probably never have made Ferrit or Sala, and I love them now, too.
My grandchildren play here. One has had a character die permanently. It was an eye-opening experience for her, I think. Actions have consequences, sometimes very permanent, very bad consequences. I hope it will make her more thoughtful about real life choices.
Our Layonara world changes and grows. If characters are immortal, that growth stagnates. A new character today may be the world-changing hero of next year, but not if the current world-changing heroes never die or retire. New characters, new faces keep old players coming back for new experiences.
As difficult as our system of permanent death is, I would not want to change it.
-
To be fair, Joyrock doesn't want to take out the strand system or permadeath. He simply wants to get rid of the rather OOC gravestone business and replace them with corpses that can be moved by other PCs to safer locations, to cut down on unnecessary strand loss.
As another side note to the request though, if this were put in I imagine it would be for realism and to be able to have a safer place to come back to instead of in the middle of the horde...not to drag back to town to be raised, because I am doubting that all the little shrine clerics will necessarily be a high enough level, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way there would be a deity check, so enemies and likely unfriendlies would be out of luck. :)
-
To be fair, Joyrock doesn't want to take out the strand system or permadeath. He simply wants to get rid of the rather OOC gravestone business and replace them with corpses that can be moved by other PCs to safer locations, to cut down on unnecessary strand loss.
I was under the impression that upon "Respawn", the corpse would again become an immobile gravestone, since the character's body would have been whisked away through the bindstone system, leaving only the site of their death.
The IC explanation for the mechanics of the "ghostly" body, as I understand it, is that the character is missing a vital part of their "self", which can only be reclaimed at the site they fell. They are not ghosts, just people who are considerably weaker and noticeably frailer than they normally are. I can't see replacing the gravestone with a corpse in toto fitting with the established IC reasoning.
-
I was under the impression that upon "Respawn", the corpse would again become an immobile gravestone, since the character's body would have been whisked away through the bindstone system, leaving only the site of their death.
The IC explanation for the mechanics of the "ghostly" body, as I understand it, is that the character is missing a vital part of their "self", which can only be reclaimed at the site they fell. They are not ghosts, just people who are considerably weaker and noticeably frailer than they normally are. I can't see replacing the gravestone with a corpse in toto fitting with the established IC reasoning.
I believe the intention is not to replace the gravestone with a moveable corpse but rather something along this line:
On death, one's character is teleported to a "you are dead area". In the meanwhile, a corpse is created where you died. In this "dead area", you will have the option of either:
1. Wait until someone casts Raise Dead/Ressurect on your moveable corpse.
2. Speak with a "respawn guy" in the dead area. Doing that, your corpse is then automaticly destroyed, a gravestone is created where you died, and you are teleported to the bindstone you last bound at.
Kind of like the only difference is that instead of bringing a cleric to your corpse (like before), one could bring the corpse to a cleric!
-
There wasn't really a misunderstanding there regarding its purpose, and frankly the desire to use a body instead of a grave is -my- wish, as it's a bit weird to have a gravestone magically pop up with name for all to read. Not sure where they come from. A body is identifiable and in character.
-
I really don't mind how it works aslong as the corpse can be moved, and is more realistic.
-
Ah, yes, I believe my reasoning there was not completely clear as I thought. What I basicly meant was that in case of choosing the respawn option, the said character should, in my opinion, be forced to walk back to his/her location of death for a complete recovery (or wait 10 minutes/level just like now).
Kind of how it works now... If a Raise Dead/Resurrect spell is casted, no grave-praying has to be done. But if the bindstone is used instead, one has to get back to the location of death. :p
-
Well, there are some things that would need to be sorted out. From my observations at least, it seems like most worlds that use these also use a fugue plane system rather than a bind system, which few places seem to use anymore. I'm not sure why the attachment to going all the way back if someone is willing to suck it up and carry the extremely heavy body of a comrade for miles, though. I know several people who wouldn't.
Go back to wherever the body is, sure... all the way back to site of death no matter what though, eh, don't see the point. If you get to the bottom of "the Deep" and someone dies there and respawns, no one is going to be returning to that location of course. However, if someone is actually insane/stoic enough to say they aren't leaving without their buddy, and encumbers themselves with a rotting body for a few months getting out, hey! Go ahead...
It's a poor example because of course anyone traveling in such a situation also has a cleric more than capable of resurrections, but still. ;)
-
Well there way around the weight, like I often kept a mage spell handy that was not very useful, polymorph self. Umber hulk form can carry alot. I used it just for carrying big heavy fighter classes out of the dungeon.
It can use the bind system, we used your starting location or you bind spot, and players had the option of binding themselves to any safe location. be it there house, a inn, so we had it working pretty good on the bind location part. So it works very well with bind locations.
-
Well, there are some things that would need to be sorted out. From my observations at least, it seems like most worlds that use these also use a fugue plane system rather than a bind system, which few places seem to use anymore. I'm not sure why the attachment to going all the way back if someone is willing to suck it up and carry the extremely heavy body of a comrade for miles, though. I know several people who wouldn't.
Go back to wherever the body is, sure... all the way back to site of death no matter what though, eh, don't see the point. If you get to the bottom of "the Deep" and someone dies there and respawns, no one is going to be returning to that location of course. However, if someone is actually insane/stoic enough to say they aren't leaving without their buddy, and encumbers themselves with a rotting body for a few months getting out, hey! Go ahead...
It's a poor example because of course anyone traveling in such a situation also has a cleric more than capable of resurrections, but still. ;)
Respawning + Praying at Moveable Corpse has the negative effect of... pranks... *Coughs.*
"Lesse... a dead body on the ground... lets... hide it! *Laughs and does just that.*"
-
I have to agree with this. I just died and while trying to get back to my grave invisible and was attacked by a snake as soon as I went through a transition. Which caused me to die again and loose 8000 XP. May not sound like much but for at level 8 that is a lot. :(
-
There wasn't really a misunderstanding there regarding its purpose, and frankly the desire to use a body instead of a grave is -my- wish, as it's a bit weird to have a gravestone magically pop up with name for all to read. Not sure where they come from. A body is identifiable and in character.
Bodies are nice, but wouldn't a body left behind alter things a lot? I mean, if there is a body to return to, then isn't the person walking around a ghost or a bodiless soul or whatever? If that's the new deal, that's fine, but there need to be extra changes to make it make sense. There's no way a soul is wearing armor and swinging a sword, for example. Respawned characters can do that now because they aren't just souls but have actual bodies that aren't left behind. *shakes a fist at glowing, translucent body effects*
The gravestones, while kind of strange, are just a marker. They could be banners or glowing lights or anything. I try to think of them as an OOC thing, so I may check them because I'm curious but try not to discuss them IC. What matters is that they mark a location that has psychological importance for the character. I imagine being resurrected and rebuilt by magical stones isn't exactly a wonderful experience, which is why characters are so drained afterward. But they have a choice of passively waiting to recover or seizing the bull by the horns and facing the journey, returning exactly to their place of death, conquering the inner pain by force of will, and putting it all behind them. "You'll feel better if you do something about it."
This doesn't have anything to do with bodies being movable, exactly, except that moving a body to a new location to be recovered would make people actually into ghosts (since no one has two bodies, and if you have a new body you don't need the old one, especially if you still have all your stuff) and that it kind of removes the "psychological struggle" aspect (which may just be me, anyway, heh).
-
Bodies are nice, but wouldn't a body left behind alter things a lot? I mean, if there is a body to return to, then isn't the person walking around a ghost or a bodiless soul or whatever?
No. There is already a body left behind, you just can't see it. Presumably it is eaten or something by trolls, who knows.
At the moment of your death, your soul is pulled away from your lifeless corpse and returns to where it is tethered, where your body is made anew. So technically your dead one is still there, anyway.
Edit - I don't disagree with the rest of your post, including the whole purpose of returning to the site of death. Though in my opinion, facing one's own dead body is kind of scarring, but that might just be me.
It can use the bind system, we used your starting location or you bind spot, and players had the option of binding themselves to any safe location. be it there house, a inn, so we had it working pretty good on the bind location part. So it works very well with bind locations.
I wasn't saying it couldn't be used with it, just that there are always some things to consider and factor into how something is done.
Respawning + Praying at Moveable Corpse has the negative effect of... pranks... *Coughs.*
"Lesse... a dead body on the ground... lets... hide it! *Laughs and does just that.*"
In all the places I've seen the corpses, you can also choose to burn it as well, preventing them from being raised. So...*Shrugs* In character. Not saying it would be added, just that I'm not sure it's considered a horrible downside as far as in-character actions go.
-
No. There is already a body left behind, you just can't see it. Presumably it is eaten or something by trolls, who knows.
At the moment of your death, your soul is pulled away from your lifeless corpse and returns to where it is tethered, where your body is made anew. So technically your dead one is still there, anyway.
Okay, thanks. I think if there are bodies left lying around, though, then the glow definitely has to go. No one returning to a body is going to see that shining, see-through character and not believe he is a ghost. It's hard enough to convince people now.
To firm up the explanation of my opinion, then, I'm not a big fan of movable corpses for the purpose of easier recovery. If your character dies and gets a brand new body with all their gear, the only purpose for returning to the site of death or the body is psychological. In fact, that would be true even if the dead body were teleported and revived by the bindstones. Anyway, if the body is the important part (for whatever reason, rather than just being a marker) and is brought to the respawned character, then nothing has been overcome, really. There wasn't any effort. Recovering from that kind of trauma needs to require time or effort or both, and a system that allows players to get around those requirements lessens the cost of death. Dying should mean something, and if it's only going to mean the potential loss of Soul Strands followed by a quick recovery, then maybe it would be easier just to remove the need to recover rather than add a way to haul corpses.
Understand that movable corpses sounds pretty cool to me, but when I think more about it, it just sounds like a way to try to have more of the good with less of the bad, to circumvent the cost of dying.
-
I agree the glow should be gone either way, as it's supposed to represent the clear strain and trauma someone has gone through rather than being see-through. Don't ask me about the gear...never too sure on that one, hehe. Maybe the viewpoint should be that your whole body is returned too, though that's even weirder!
I don't actually care too much either way on the draggable corpses (though I do dislike the grave marker, which is irrelevant to the topic), because like the UD example, in most later cases you have a cleric on hand, period...
It doesn't seem to add a huge impact to me, but with the work done and most liking it for various reasons, I don't have any objections, either. ;)
Well... that's not true, I guess it's more like "my objections to it and defenses of it even each other out." Which happens a lot. Heh.
-
Okay, thanks. I think if there are bodies left lying around, though, then the glow definitely has to go. No one returning to a body is going to see that shining, see-through character and not believe he is a ghost. It's hard enough to convince people now.
To firm up the explanation of my opinion, then, I'm not a big fan of movable corpses for the purpose of easier recovery. If your character dies and gets a brand new body with all their gear, the only purpose for returning to the site of death or the body is psychological. In fact, that would be true even if the dead body were teleported and revived by the bindstones. Anyway, if the body is the important part (for whatever reason, rather than just being a marker) and is brought to the respawned character, then nothing has been overcome, really. There wasn't any effort. Recovering from that kind of trauma needs to require time or effort or both, and a system that allows players to get around those requirements lessens the cost of death. Dying should mean something, and if it's only going to mean the potential loss of Soul Strands followed by a quick recovery, then maybe it would be easier just to remove the need to recover rather than add a way to haul corpses.
Understand that movable corpses sounds pretty cool to me, but when I think more about it, it just sounds like a way to try to have more of the good with less of the bad, to circumvent the cost of dying.
Ok the first part I don't get. but you talk of the downside of a easy recovery? if your in a dungeon with 6 people you die, often they go back and escort you there easy recovery, same as if they just drag your body along.
Your not going to escape folks doing easy recovery. least with them having the body, it keeps a person out of the dungeon unless they all go find someone to raise them.
Now what does this add? Well your chars is in a romantic relationsship they wake up in there lovers arms, that RP can't really do that with respawn, it keeps things flowing.
Evil villian takes your body and wishes to raises you and then wishes to hold you for ransom. See the worst thing that can happen is someone stumbles on your body, and hides it but the forcing a respawn, which is no difference then what you currently must do when you die. So the little trickster did something, and RP would be created from it.
Easy recovery, is in the current system, and that would not change. what not in the system is the ability to keep things flowing, which flow is important to RP. it is kinda like your Rping and someone goes AFK for 5 minutes and everyone has to wait for them, it puts a hold on things, or can out right kill it.
Now least with movables corpses clerics meet folks get Rp from them asking them hey can you raise my friend? sure this can happen now but movable corpses greatly increases the chance of this happening.
It not just a realistic or handy thing, it is a RP thing. I just can't really discribe all the RP I have seen from meeting folks due to carring a body, it gives you something to do.
Here think of this. Sir john kisses barbie and goes off to battle the foul dragon with sir Ensure, Sir john promised to return at sundown, but there late what could have happend, oh wait she see's something alone figure that seems to be carrying something. Oh Sir Ensure must have fallen and sir john is carrying him back, but sadly she finds out it is not sir john carrying Ensure, but the other way around, she crys over the corpse cursing with the gods, pulls a dagger and does some speach, but luckily old cleric jimbo wonders by stays her hand, and touches the young barbie who always cursed the gods for taking her parents away the cleirc raises sir john, barbie struck by the clerics actions and that of his god befriends the cleric and wishes to follow the god that returned her love to her I have seen stuff like this happen alot not only is it fun to be in but fun to watch.
You can't really do that with a gravestone in a spawn spot of a dungeon many miles away with out her metagaming, nor when she see's the ghost of her lover run back to the dungeon to fight with his friends untill they win.
It just greatly enhances RP, and that is really why I am here.
-
Alright. My summary tactic again.
A description of a nicely-done final idea of this system:
1) Character X dies.
2) Character X chooses to either Wait For Help as normal, or to Shift to Fugue - in the latter case, being transported to a death area.
Assuming they Shift to Fugue (taking the place of Respawn)...
a) A gravestone is automatically erected where they were slain. (I've always thought these ephemeral markers were more Bindstone Magic.)
b) A container is automatically spawned just in front of the gravestone, containing the Corpse Object.
3) Player decides to either wait or respawn, sitting around in the Death Area.
Player chooses to respawn!
a) Player talks to death-person/object, and is respawned.
b) Corpse Object is destroyed (fades out of existence,) and an appropriate flavor-text is triggered, centered on the object (or object's holder).
c) Gravestone remains.
d) Character's body is transported to the Bindpoint, where it is restored and revivified (and standard death penalties are applied).
e) Character can choose to return to the gravestone, or wait, as normal.
Player chooses to wait!
a) Player chills out in the death area.
b) Characters Y and Z grab the body and boogie.
c) Characters Y and Z find a cleric, and the cleric Raises/Resurrects Character X.
d) Corpse Object is destroyed.
e) Gravestone disappears.
f) Character X is transported to the spot where the Corpse Object was, and Raise/Res penalties take effect normally.
-
Ok the first part I don't get.
The first part is about that weird, white glow that respawned (and raised/resurrected) characters have. It's only important because it makes people think that such characters are ghosts even though they aren't, and it brings up odd, semi-metagamey situations where people just walk up and ask, "What happened?" or, "Can I help you get back to your stone?" as if they were normal things to say to people in brand new, uninjured bodies.
but you talk of the downside of a easy recovery? if your in a dungeon with 6 people you die, often they go back and escort you there easy recovery, same as if they just drag your body along.
Not so. If they go back to get you, then they and you have to make your way back to the place of death. If they bring the body out, then it cuts out the extra danger of fighting back with a weakened character. Trying to protect a weakened character is a source of good RP.
Removing the body from where it fell reduces the cost of dying. With the current system, you either choose safety, which costs time, or you choose speed, which risks another death and some XP. Allowing bodies to be brought to safe locations removes the need for time and risk.
Also, if one of six died, and no others came close to dying, then the death was probably a fluke and the fight wasn't all that hard. It could be claimed that returning to the death site or hauling the body out would both be an easy recovery. But if one died and several others were seriously hurt, then it was a tough fight, and it can not honestly be claimed that it would be just as easy to return to the site of death as to return to wherever the body would be taken. The current system has a higher average difficulty.
Your not going to escape folks doing easy recovery.
That's true. It's human nature to try to find exploits and weaknesses, or, to say it with a positive spin, to seek advantages.
least with them having the body, it keeps a person out of the dungeon unless they all go find someone to raise them.
Why should they be kept out of the dungeons? Isn't it the choice of the player whether to put his character into danger? And why should they have to find someone to raise him? The bindstones are a very integral part of the world, and everyone knows that when you die, you'll be brought right back to the one you are bound to. The stones do the raising.
In addition, there are a lot of people who play here who have limited time to dedicate. It's fantastic to consider hauling around carcasses and imagining the RP that can come of it, but a lot of people aren't going to want to waste the playtime dead while other people are RPing. Being dead is being dead, which is a serious damper on roleplay. As long as it's an either-or system, great, but if you must wait for help or a raise/resurrect, then it's going to seriously hurt and upset a lot of players. I haven't seen it suggested that way explicitly; I'm just saying.
Evil villian takes your body and wishes to raises you and then wishes to hold you for ransom. See the worst thing that can happen is someone stumbles on your body, and hides it but the forcing a respawn, which is no difference then what you currently must do when you die. So the little trickster did something, and RP would be created from it.
RP involves people interacting. If someone hides a body and then leaves so that someone else has to respawn, that is griefing. If someone camps a body to threaten or moves a body to extort, that is griefing. If these sorts of things are set up ahead of time in tells, that would be different, but it's not spontaneous or a guaranteed chance at RP. Maybe the other player doesn't want to RP being extorted. That's hardly the sort of thing real people get to decide to avoid, but, as cool as Layonara is, it's not real and there are rules against griefing. Also, except for hiding the body, these things can be done with the current system with a little imagination.
Easy recovery, is in the current system, and that would not change.
Like I said above, it's not as easy now as free body delivery would be.
what not in the system is the ability to keep things flowing, which flow is important to RP. it is kinda like your Rping and someone goes AFK for 5 minutes and everyone has to wait for them, it puts a hold on things, or can out right kill it.
I think having my character's body hauled all over for five or ten minutes would be a pretty big kill to the RP, too. Playing a dead guy isn't very hard, but it doesn't offer a lot of opportunities for RP. By respawning, I can make my way back and rejoin the others, thus keeping the flow in the direction we were going, rather than the whole party changing direction so that now everyone is bothered with bringing my character back to life rather than exploring that cave or whatever. There is flow in both systems. The flow does not come from the system but from the players and their imaginations.
Now least with movables corpses clerics meet folks get Rp from them asking them hey can you raise my friend? sure this can happen now but movable corpses greatly increases the chance of this happening.
I agree that it would. The current respawn system can, has, and does lead to RP by allowing the respawned character to ask for help, though, so it isn't without the opportunity for good RP. It also has the advantage that the previously dead guy is now actively RPing rather than just being hauled around as luggage waiting for the other characters to find a Cleric.
It not just a realistic or handy thing, it is a RP thing. I just can't really discribe all the RP I have seen from meeting folks due to carring a body, it gives you something to do.
I don't doubt it. It's just my opinion that it's a lot better to play a living character that's weakened temporarily than a dead one being hauled around for an indeterminable amount of time. In a world with a choice, I'm going to respawn nine times out of ten because I'm really not interested in waiting for other people to finish playing with my character's corpse when I could be interacting with people myself.
-
It can use the bind system, we used your starting location or you bind spot, and players had the option of binding themselves to any safe location. be it there house, a inn, so we had it working pretty good on the bind location part. So it works very well with bind locations.
While I think there are possible benefits to the movable corpse system (though I'd agree with Gulnyr's detractions), I wouldn't agree to a change in the binding system. For one, the current bind system has a lovely story behind it, of ancient spells woven into the talismen that are the bindstones.
Similarly, being allowed to choose your bindspot feels very much like a "save point", which, in turn, smacks of metagaming and breaking RP. If there are objects that can tie into your soul and pull it away to safety before it's forever lost, woven by ancient magics... that's fine. If you can just say, "I want to appear here when I've made my way through the darkness beyond death.".... I don't see that being quite as.. well, believable.
-
I proposed a way to have both systems work in tandem, above, that I believe addresses all of the concerns here apart from the body-snatchers griefing deal.
What do all sides of this discussion think of that? *Points up.*
-
I think being able to carry the corpse just adds more to the immersion of the world. It doesn't really alter the death system in anyway and the option to wait as a dead person is optional. You can still wander back to your grave as a "ghost" the old fashioned way. About the subject of hiding someone's corpse and holding it for ransom, unless I misread, I'm pretty sure Joyrock was just using that as an example of a RP opportunity. Even if someone chose to cause grief to another player by hiding the corpse, the dead person can still wander back to their grave site. *shrugs* No big deal.
-
was not talking of changing anything with the current bind stones, they work they do there thing and there setup like that for a reason.
here the thing, you carry a extra 160 stones, walk at a very slow pace and do a dungeon, carrying a body does not make it easier trust me I have played on a server that used it for along time. there more threat with one guy moving slow getting swarmed and not being able to back off the mob fast enough for fellows to heal because he moves slow.
Trust me it makes recovery no easier. You know what the only real problem with movable corpses is? is someone hiding it. but then the only thing it forces you to do is respawn, which since your were alone then you probly would have had to do that anyway.
Movable corpses help, in groups or with a friend. and then with your lone friend carrys you, he probly risk's his life very much for having to carry you back, because we will probly be walking pretty slow.
Now with people not having alot of time to play or wait that fine you still get the option to just respawn, I think somewhere you missed something on the matter.
-
here the thing, you carry a extra 160 stones, walk at a very slow pace and do a dungeon, carrying a body does not make it easier trust me I have played on a server that used it for along time. there more threat with one guy moving slow getting swarmed and not being able to back off the mob fast enough for fellows to heal because he moves slow.
Trust me it makes recovery no easier.
This can be countered by your own statement:
Well there way around the weight, like I often kept a mage spell handy that was not very useful, polymorph self. Umber hulk form can carry alot. I used it just for carrying big heavy fighter classes out of the dungeon.
In other words, there is a built-in work-around (aka exploit). Not everyone is a mage, of course, but they aren't exactly rare, either.
And in this quote...
Ok give a yes or no if this will ever happen so I can find out if I am wasting time playing here, because I can't play with the current death system. I can't I keep trying but I can't. I lost 3 soul strands at level 5 in one day, I only died 3 times.
I was asked how is the movable corpses a need? this i show, because I can't play with the current unrealistic can't move the corpses system of DOOM.
... I can see how you may have posted while you were upset, so a lot of emotion got put into it, but what you're really saying right there is that you want recovery to be easier because it's frustrating trying to return to a gravestone in a hard-to-reach place, and being able to move bodies to safer locations would solve that. I can sympathize with that, but honestly, it has nothing to do with RP. Just because Layonara's system is more difficult doesn't mean it is broken. The system here is not objectively better or worse than other servers' systems; it is just different.
I can understand that hauling a heavy load and trying to stay alive could create a lot of drama and the potential for RP. But RP comes from the players, not from the system. RP is what you make of it. At least one person is going to be left out of a body-hauling scenario, though, which is why, in my opinion, respawning is a better option. Everyone can play then, rather than having one player wait for other people to play enough that her dead character can be brought back into the game. Your mileage may vary, and one over the other is a matter of pure opinion in that regard.
Now with people not having alot of time to play or wait that fine you still get the option to just respawn, I think somewhere you missed something on the matter.
I included that to be complete, not because I thought anyone was suggesting it.
I proposed a way to have both systems work in tandem, above, that I believe addresses all of the concerns here apart from the body-snatchers griefing deal.
What do all sides of this discussion think of that? *Points up.*
If it were created so that there could be no easy grave recovery, I probably couldn't complain too much. To be specific, it would have to be built so that a person who chose to wait and then decided to respawn would have to return to the original point of death and not just to the body's new location. So the choices would be that any respawn would require the character to wait out the reflections or return to the original death site, and any wait would require a raise or resurrect from a Cleric. Just returning to the body in a safe place is too much of a Get Out of Death Free card.
To add to something Acacea said previously, but from a different angle, Clerics ready to raise people on every street corner like pawners would be excessive, I think. It shouldn't be too easy to find an NPC Cleric to help.
On top of that, the deity relations are an important part of the world. Not every temple (with a qualified Cleric) should automatically be willing to raise just anyone. Personally, I think it should generally be limited to only Allied and Friendly folks who should be raised. Neutral (the deity relation, not the alignment) is kind of a toss-up, depending on the Church. Some of them may ask, "Why not?" while others may ask, "Why should I?"
I can imagine that a lack of a convenient NPC could lead to a lot of PC Clerics getting tells. "Hey, Joe died. Can you meet us at Corax to raise?" I guess that's not a huge problem, but it makes me feel the same way un-roleplayed cross-continent party invitations do.
To summarize and quit babbling, I think there is a lot more to consider than just who will script it and where to plug it into the module. Any system has to fit the world, and there is a lot of work to be done on the sides to make things fit right, like the additional scripting for NPC Clerics because of deity relations, which NPCs are actually high enough level to actually raise anyone, how much it should cost... Who knows what all needs to be done? It's a lot of work, and I'm not sure it's that big a deal that we don't have movable corpses. Some people don't like it, but you can't please everyone.
Put it in or not, y'know, but don't make death mean less than it does now.
-
Put it in or not, y'know, but don't make death mean less than it does now.
I would tend to agree, as I feel death needs to be painful. It also needs to be a learning experience. There is nothing written that requires a player to return to the place of their death; they can sit and reflect on tactics, drink the pain away or OOC'ly, log off and do something else for ten hours.
If I understand the the "dead" player would be sitting in a room, waiting for someone else to fix their situation by dragging them to a cleric. So from an RP stand point, that person is now completely isolated. With the current system, they are reconstituted at their bindstone, and have the option to determine what happens next, be that pray at their "grave" or wait it out.
Me, I'd be opposed to changing what is working, and working as intended.
-
Just as a tangent,
Probably half of the time I die, I recover naturally; sit around at stormcrest or wherever and RP. For character reasons, constantly running back to the grave is not always as appropriate as meditating on the nature of death as a way to heal the soul.
Very often, Drexia helps players back to their grave, it's a great way to meet newer characters, and intiate RP. The realism of being able to drag a corpse aside, The current death system is a very RP friendly system. Some people may not choose to use it that way, by logging off if they die, but that's their choice.
A movable corpse system could be a lot of fun, but I honestly like the current system. No death system is going to be ideal, because there has to be a balance between making death to be taken seriously, and making it too onerous.
-
In other words, there is a built-in work-around (aka exploit). Not everyone is a mage, of course, but they aren't exactly rare, either.
An exploit? Using a spell to haul something heavy, just as it's used now? I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on that one.
If it were created so that there could be no easy grave recovery, I probably couldn't complain too much. To be specific, it would have to be built so that a person who chose to wait and then decided to respawn would have to return to the original point of death and not just to the body's new location. So the choices would be that any respawn would require the character to wait out the reflections or return to the original death site, and any wait would require a raise or resurrect from a Cleric. Just returning to the body in a safe place is too much of a Get Out of Death Free card.
Yes, that is exactly how it works in the method I proposed - just scroll up. :)
To add to something Acacea said previously, but from a different angle, Clerics ready to raise people on every street corner like pawners would be excessive, I think. It shouldn't be too easy to find an NPC Cleric to help.
I agree.
Personally, I think it should generally be limited to only Allied and Friendly folks who should be raised. Neutral (the deity relation, not the alignment) is kind of a toss-up, depending on the Church. Some of them may ask, "Why not?" while others may ask, "Why should I?"
Again, I agree.
Put it in or not, y'know, but don't make death mean less than it does now.
I don't think it will.
Edit: I'm starting to feel, a bit, that this whole discussion is ignoring the main focus of this, which is to decide if a system for movable corpses would be acceptable to the community. I proposed just such a system, which should satisfy everyone, above. Link. (http://www.layonara.com/483805-post51.html) As such, I'm a little confused why not a single soul has commented on it, and has instead focused on going back and forth on issues that have already been addressed.
I apologize if I seem snippish in this edit - I've not slept much and I'm not sure how else to word it.
-
An exploit? Using a spell to haul something heavy, just as it's used now? I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on that one.
I probably didn't choose the best word.
The penalties for dying should not be something easy to overcome, and adding a system that would allow it when we know exactly how to "defeat" the system just seems really, really screwy. Using the spell to carry heavy loads is great, but not when it makes death less costly. A system that requires returning to the death site or to a Cleric to be raised*, without a hybrid possibility of returning to the body in a safe location, doesn't "exploit" the system through the use of the spell.
*(or waiting out reflections, but that isn't important to this particular point)
-
Aye, as I addressed. :) Specifically, the gravestone appears when the character first Shifts to Fugue, with the container and Corpse Object right next to it. The corpse can be moved, but the grave stays put. They can either raise the corpse... Or the char can respawn and go to the grave.
Though, honestly, a mage could jsut as easily go invisible, then polymorph into an umber hulk to get back to his grave with 200 lbs on him.
Edit: If the polymorph would drop invis, the wizard could still load up on STR rings and cast a few Empowered Bull's.
-
Though, honestly, a mage could jsut as easily go invisible, then polymorph into an umber hulk to get back to his grave with 200 lbs on him.
Edit: If the polymorph would drop invis, the wizard could still load up on STR rings and cast a few Empowered Bull's.
I think we're talking about two different things. I don't see anything wrong with the dead guy himself doing things to make it easier to get back to the place he died, whether that is making use of spells or stealth or a big pack of friends. He could still be detected, or his friends may not be enough, so he has to put himself into danger if he wants to recover more quickly.
I do see something wrong with the body being the focus of the system, allowing it to be moved to a better place, thus making death cost less. That sort of system doesn't cost time through waiting out reflections and doesn't have risk by exposing the respawned character to danger. I understand that is not how your suggestion works, but some of the earlier posts seem to be pointing to that exact option, though more recent posts have moved beyond it.
To be a little more blunt and specific, the comment about the "exploit" was made because it seems a little misleading and deceitful for someone to claim that it is hard to haul a body to safety because of the slowing of the pace after having already posted that it can easily be overcome by polymorphing into an umber hulk.
-
Well the only thing I have seen posted on is movable post would break balance, bu tit seems to be very blanced on every server that uses it. Just as balanced as the current one.
As for death having a reason, I find It does not for me. I raise I walk out someone comes up to me and trys to talk to me because I am glowing and wish to help me get back to my grave stone. Now I don't know if you know this but a but returning to life, a magic grave stone popping up, and the ability for a fighter to heal the soul are all things that fit in a high magic world. places where dragons are common place and perma haste boots are on every feet.
But that just NWN ingeneral, because you can't make a very realistic low magic world with out making it one death perma unless raised by a high level priest, which is not a very player friendly world.
When I die, I just gather a few people don't talk to them don't care to they help me get to my corpse as a OOC respect amoung players where we pwn every thing in the way because it like 6 monsters. Really easy thing to do.
Or you simply just logoff and wait, now how is that a very demanding system compared to the movables corpses? I don't see how it makes it any easier then just logging off and waiting while I play my 2nd server or other game, or do school work, make dinner etc.
The layo death system is easy recovery, with some chance of lossing XP. but it still made to be easy to make it easy on the players.
Now just as much as movables corpses aid corpse recovery, it hinders it and makes it more dangerous as well. Through the movement speed.
Now if I wanted balance I would play WoW, layo will never be able to match WoW in balance, but WoW will never match layo in RP. This is a RP server.
Movable corpse hinder corpse recovery very little, and aids it very little.
You can Recover a corpse with a DM so I think it makes little difference unless the DM's by your logic favor players and allow quests to be easy so they always win and don't cry by allowing corpse recovery.
Now here is a thought, take the time to give a list of reason's how picking up corpses would hurt the server, and I will take the counter argument of how it would help the server.
you see we have a CvC widget which can help a server or hurt it, all based on the type of players that use it, there the abusive kind and the non-abusive kind. The current death system is no harder or easier with or with out movable corpses, it just more Rpable, and party friendly.
Movables corpse does you nothing when your alone, because there no one to drag you back, if your with a lone friend then corpse recovey is more dangerous because you will move slow and you wil be fighting more then one monster with no chance of out running them, or evading there attacks.
A mage can invis to avoid the mobs I know, but a mage can just cast invis on you and tell you to run to your grave stone. the trick here is that one can run, and the other can only walk, if you use polymorph and umber hulk you lose much needed spell slots, have no way to cast spells unless you return to human form.
Why do I want movable corpses? Because it insanely silly not to be able to move a corpse three feet, when it can be RPed by a Dm, but not done normally because a game mechanic. Not a balance mechanic.
now let talk about how frustrating it is, for there to be 10 people in the party, but they can't pickup your corpse and drag it along.
But what they can do is farm more Xp by escorting you back which is pretty much the point of going into the dungeon you did. over they can just send back the mage invisible to cast invisiblity on you and lead you back to the party.
Now I think there been some confunsion about how I stated corpse could work, so here goes again.
When you die instead of a grave, your corpse is left there it can be moved around by being put in your inventory, can be tradded or dropped on the ground. the dead person can ether wait for help (just like the current system) or respawn, at which the corpse is removed from the game.
Now you can even make it under that the same price as normally respawning, and even still keep them as a ghost/glowie person, missing parts of themself.
where if they run back there a grave stone marker, denoting the place of death. and they can prey there and be whole again.
The only thing that has changed is the need for DM's to move the corpse.
movable corpses does nothing for alone player, hinders a pair of players by one having to carry the other, not everyone has invis, and if they did then they would just invis back, invis the ghost and themselves and run back.
And it helps the group of adventures, which would easily bash the monsters in front of them to escort a player. But it hinders them greatly if more then one person dies, three people carrying a corpse each, is very dangerous to a party. So as far as balance goes it keeps it pretty much the same.
Now that just on balance that not about how it helps in other ways such as RP, something the Dm's don't need to be bugged about, another things don't need to depend on DM's for giving them more reason to logon when there are no DM's, etc.
To be a little more blunt and specific, the comment about the "exploit" was made because it seems a little misleading and deceitful for someone to claim that it is hard to haul a body to safety because of the slowing of the pace after having already posted that it can easily be overcome by polymorphing into an umber hulk.
Thing is hauling a body by a mage if they even use polymorph which movable corpse would be one more reason to use it, calls for the need of 2 spells invisibilty, which everymage worth there salt has, and polymorph not used by many mages, because it eats a spell slot and you never use it for anything other then troll form to heal, or as a last resort. you see it uses up half your spell slots using it. So umber hulk can and has put players in danger using it to haul a dead friend.
Now using umber hulk uses up two spells to use, escorting a player uses up one invisibility. And using umberhulk form is not a exploit, even if theydid add it just to carry corpses, it a useful spell not useful in most places but in hauling things like resources it is.
But keep in mind umberhulk form is not somthing you use when you must pass the path of monsters. it add's extra life and allows you to run, but you got no clue how easy it is to get stuck on things and with the new tiles I would not want to get caught on something and beaten to death by the mobs after me.
But if your invised, there there no fear of the mobs. umber hulk form is not the key to avoiding mobs, it just a time savior.
The same thing that allow you to avoid the mobs with movables corpses, allows you to avoid them with the non moving ones.
the thing is not everyone is a mage, and not everyone has access to the spell.
-
Joyrock, let me say something rather blunt.
You're not helping.
I've already laid out a perfectly useful and acceptable system that WILL work... All this further discussion is doing is helping to foil your intent to have it actually implemented.
So, just... Be patient. Wait for Nibor to get to this. And go play the game. :)