The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: ShiffDrgnhrt on June 04, 2007, 12:19:12 PM
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I was driving home from class today and a radio commercial for a Realtor came on, and a thought popped into by head, mostly spawned from thinking about how hard it is to raise money to buy a house, IG.
On Layonara, there seems to be an unfair balance between what a Combat Only Class can do by itself, and what a Magician Class can do by itself. Now, I've never played as a magician before. I can't seem to play/build/understand a Magician properly and that may say something about my (actual RL) character, but I prefer the simplicity of Combat.
I have seen characters like Tegan (Sorc) and Rhynn (Wiz) and Elohanna (Wiz) and Quillem (Cleric) and Ozy (Bard) and Zergon (Wiz) and Kalin (Sorc) be able to unleash hell on monsters by themselves, while at the same time seen Characters Like Shar'har (Ranger), Steel (Fighter), Kinai (Rog), Shiff (Fighter), Valmara (Fighter), Pyyran (Rog), Tath (Barb) fail trying the same thing alone.
Now, as far as what I consider Combatant and Magician:
Combatant:
[LIST=1]
- Fighter
- Barbarian
- Paladin
[/B]
- Monk
- Ranger
- Rogue
Magician:
[LIST=1]
- Wizard
- Sorcerer
- Cleric
- Druid
- Bard
I believe that ordered them from most effective, to least effective (at least for me).
I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Whether they agree or disagree and why. I might be out of line saying in believing this but this is only talking from what I've experienced. I'd love to hear what others think, even if I'm wrong in the end.
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Rouge and Bard don't belong in either.
Cleric and Druid can be in both.
And, it seems to me that mages are the one with trouble, unless they have a nasty summon. They have one chance to kill all the badies, before they get rushed.
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Well I dont disagree, but there is times where a figther is much more needed in "teamwork" with a what you call a magician.
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At different levels, different classes are more or less effective. At high levels, mages are almost universally more effective in terms of soloing. Of the "warrior" types, at those same levels, Monks are the most effective all around.
However, at low levels, those classes are almost universally "so weak it hurts."
The only class that's really a powerhouse all the way through would be Cleric, and even that depends on your domains.
At high levels, yes, Mage-types will destructify, while fighter-types will, not just fail, but get the #$(&# pwnzed out of them. In Solo.
In groups, the mechanics are VERY much altered. With certain mage types, you'll just see high-level battle going Thunderclap Wierd fighters mop up. But... Those aren't the most fun to play with. ;) With other mages, though... Really, it depends heavily on spell choice. And party composition.
And I'm rambling.
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I guess what I don't agree with is the notion that this balance is "unfair." If you create a bard, you shouldn't expect to be able to solo hordes of bad guys, it's not what the class is about. Wizards can unleash utter destruction, but have their own limitations and require more thought to be able to play well. If you play a straight fighter, you can destroy things at low levels, and be more party-reliant at higher levels.
I think the whole class balance issue has been discussed to death in other threads.
The classes are not balanced, they never will be balanced, and there really shouldn't be a problem with this.
Every character has a role, even if the roles don't have equal solo ability. If you are really worried about it and can't have fun without having a powerful soloable character, then play the character that you think it "strongest" and have fun being a powerful. Otherwise, play the character you enjoy, accept your character's role in the game and have fun filling a slightly less powerful niche.
My 2 cents.
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If you are really worried about it and can't have fun without having a powerful soloable character, then play the character that you think it "strongest" and have fun being a powerful. Otherwise, play the character you enjoy, accept your character's role in the game and have fun filling a slightly less powerful niche.
My 2 cents.
Oh, and by the way. I'm didn't write this to complain about anything, just to discuss the thought. I don't mind my role as a Fighter IG. And I don't need a God to run around as killing everything. I've done that else where and in Normal NWN and it gets boring fast being able to kill things all alone.
Just wanted to hear what others thought.
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I'm only going to speak for myself here Shiff ;) Its true that Wizards may be able to unleash hell, as you say by themselves, but that soloing effort does require a bit of skill, tactics and ultimately knowing your spawns, which is something I refuse to take part of. I'm completley completley useless as a solo 'artist' (when it comes to things my level) because I have absolutely 0 skill or tolerance for it.
That said, I agree with you but I'm not sure anything can be done about it.
(Oh, and bards can't unleash hell or anything, simple fact)
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The greatest power of all is the ability to form a tight-knit, well-balanced party at the drop of a hat. You won't get that from any class, it's the personal power and connections of the player that make it happen.
Soloing is the last resort of the incredibly bored and anti-social.
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You just need to find the monsters that your type of PC can solo. (It helps if they drop gold.)
I have slowly been training myself on how to solo. It wasn't until 500k into 15th level that I realized Bumblebee can solo some areas on central server. An hour grinding in these areas yielded 7k XP and about 3k gold (along with an hours worth of interminable boredom). He's a rogue/shadowdancer.
The other way to get riches (and XP) outside of your soloing areas is, obviously, to join groups. The riches will normally be less since you have to split the gold, but the XP will be orders of magnitude greater.
All the classes have strengths/weaknesses. We'll run into encounters that favor some and not all.
Good luck.
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That said, I agree with you but I'm not sure anything can be done about it.
Wasn't aiming at having anything done about it because thats what DnD is based on the different Roles of the Classes. I was just commenting on how on Layo with the way the creatures are designed to dissuade us from Soloing, despite people still being able to, that Magicians have the upper hand.
Just to be redundant, I started this thread just to discuss.
=)
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Playing a lvl 25 wizard, I can only say one thing.
You fighters get all the fun.
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Playing a lvl 25 wizard, I can only say one thing.
You fighters get all the fun.
How so? I'd love to know why you think that?
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Playing a lvl 25 wizard, I can only say one thing.
You fighters get all the fun.
I agree, I wish I was a fighter again, instead of a high level wizard. Its fun to be a fighter, not so fun to be a wizard.
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I agree, I wish I was a fighter again, instead of a high level wizard. Its fun to be a fighter, not so fun to be a wizard.
Why though? I mean I love Shiff, but what makes him more fun then "Master Epic Wizard Man/Woman"?
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Playing both a fighter/bard and a wizard I enjoy the tactics behind melee'ing a lot more fun then using spells, where in the end it's just a matter of DC's and the right spells for the right creatures.
When travelling in a group, as a wizard you sometimes spend more than half your spells on warding your partymembers and after that, it's basically hasting the others and setting the encounter up as Pyrran mentioned with Thunderclap or other.
Personally I derive much more satisfaction from seeing those crits fly in melee, than seeing the epic erinyes roll a 1 on a save vs banishment. Bur maybe that's just me.
Sure, you can solo with a wizard, but in the end I find playing one outside quests less fulfilling than playing a melee oriented character (which is why the clerics get the best of both worlds).
But in the end, maybe it's just me.
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For soloing, being a rogue/fighter/SD as myself really isn't so bad. Dress up in heavy armor and put a shield on, summon my little buddy, buff up with what item spells I have, and in future levels of course put the shadow cloak spell thing up, and then dive into battle. I can handle a lot of Central and even some in East as long as a will check isn't involved, and honestly, if things get nasty, I have Hide in Plain Sight to run for cover and away if I need to...Although I don't use it for bonus sneak attacks when I'm soloing. That's just cheap.
All in all, classes are balanced to me. What a class can't do soloing, they make up for in other uses. I'd like to see a quest run smoothly without a good array of people and classes, and honestly, I'd say the rogue/bard/ranger types is very very helpful in quests (I might be biased!).
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Playing a fighter at epic levels is oh so much fun. As a matter of fact it's always been fun.
First my life pretty much matters of my own actions. I can be buffed as much as possible but if I make a wrong move I die and so might my mates.
Second. In later levels and while soloing at lower, you get to incorporate some nifty tactics and literally have to be at your game all the time.
While I do admit, it does get boring from time to time, only point-clicking, that leaves time for some RP opportunities to flesh out RP moves in battle and such. Spells are awesome, but you can spice up your cleaving too.
And to add another point, a fighters usefulness begins to curve back up in the epics... since fewer things are left to solo.
At least that's what it is to me.
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Clerics may get the best of both worlds, but Skalds truly have all the fun.
*sings for the party, heals them up, curses the opposing drow, deathwails them to dust, then hacks up the itty bitty dust particles with a dwarven waraxe and taunts them*
The best part is that some of the song DCs are based on total level too, so you can mix and match fighter/barbarian levels in between the bard/skald and still be just as scary. Another big thanks to Dorganoth & team for making this PrC so bloody fun!
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Clerics may get the best of both worlds, but Skalds truly have all the fun.
*sings for the party, heals them up, curses the opposing drow, deathwails them to dust, then hacks up the itty bitty dust particles with a dwarven waraxe and taunts them*
The best part is that some of the song DCs are based on total level too, so you can mix and match fighter/barbarian levels in between the bard/skald and still be just as scary. Another big thanks to Dorganoth & team for making this PrC so bloody fun!
Can't wait till the day I get that Prc.
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At low levels group play is a must (even for fighters folks). At high levels in the areas that high levels need to go, group play is a must. Now I will say that it is common to see a group of high level casters taking on areas without haveing any fighters with them. They have high level summons for that :) I have yet to see a group of fighter types trying to take on those same areas without the help of a caster.
A group of high level mages (Wiz and Sorc) can do any area they want. The reason you see mage groups is that there are a lot of them at high level and they dont for the most part have the deity issue.
A group of Clerics and Druids could do as well depending on domains. You dont see groups of clerics doing this due to the deity thing.
A group of high level bards (and skalds) can do any area they want. I dont think there are enough high level Bards to make a "group".
A group of high level fighters could do well but they would have to do a LOT of item switching to deal with stun spells, death magic, and elemental attacks. Also they would have to rest a lot for healing and carry a ton of the highest level healing potions that can be made (which no one makes LOL).
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Can't wait till the day I get that Prc.
Me too; the more skalds the better! The best part about skalds is that you can choreograph their curse songs with one another... have one handle the standard curse song, another do the slowing, another do the blind/deafening, another do the fear... etc, and plan a huge monster-mashing whammy of a blow right at the beginning. Then they're all blind, deaf, cursed, slow, terrified, and dead at once.
If the skalds made a troupe and journeyed the lands, the monsters wouldn't even know what hit them.
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Oh, and by the way. I'm didn't write this to complain about anything, just to discuss the thought. I don't mind my role as a Fighter IG. And I don't need a God to run around as killing everything. I've done that else where and in Normal NWN and it gets boring fast being able to kill things all alone.
Just wanted to hear what others thought.
I wasn't meaning to sound accusatory. I just think that this is a game, it's supposed to be fun, and so people should play what they will enjoy, whether that's an engine of destruction, or a pure support character. Constantly trying to compare your own class to others' rarely makes you have fun, in my opinion.
The game isn't designed for every class to have equal abilities, so why worry about it, unless there are truly gross disparities that make one class unplayable?
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I can't wait until I can play a bard/skald, which will be in about a year and a half, unfortunately, unless Kin and Hawk's kid has some odd age growth spurt or Layonara time jumps :)
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Have you ever seen what a few mithril golems do to mage?
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Have you ever seen what a few mithril golems do to mage?
That is what summons are for :)
Now when you get one of those nasty beasts that dispel things then you are in trouble LOL.
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Servant of Pandemonium...
Thats all I'm gonna say *glares at Hawklen*
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Well, I think the reason of this apparent "unbalance" is, in reality, to push players towards grouping up.
The way I see it, we as players are supposed to seek to meet new people, form parties and then use our skills or lack there of to complement the other's skills.
Then it all gets balanced.. Works real well if you have a classic DND party.
You see, Lino my character is not -at all- very useful in hunts and battles or even solo hunt, however I love my character, I have fun playing him... I have heard he is fun to have around and maybe that's why I get invited to hunts.
I get real happy when someone sends me a Tell and they need a rogue in the party for some scouting or traps & locks.. If it wasn't for the damned pixies I think maybe there would be even a bigger "rogue demand".
So you see, personally, it's a matter of finding my spot on the party, and doing what i'm supposed to do. I flank, run around like crazy, and as with all good lightfoot rogues, I loot like there's no tomorrow.
I may be useless in a party that thinks only in combat and XP, but I'd like to continue to believe that in this server, great server, I'll have many opportunities to do what my character is meant to do and have fun.
-lino
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Lino is also very good in some stews!
:p;)
Val and Shiff Love Lino!
We even have him over for dinner... (or was it as dinner?)
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A rogue useless in a combat party? I'd like to see them continuously hit over 30-40 damage at level 10 or whatever those numbers are. I usually hit higher if you average it all out compared to a fighter, but I'm not taking account in levels 'cause I'm too lazy to do a LORE check on what I'm saying.
Flat out, sneak attacks are the best thing created for the so-called combat useless rogue.
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Servant of Pandemonium...
Thats all I'm gonna say *glares at Hawklen*
What part of "STAY BACK" Didnt Shiff understand? ^_^
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At different levels, different classes are more or less effective. At high levels, mages are almost universally more effective in terms of soloing.
The first sentence in this statement is 100% accurate. The second sentence is misguided however, and Layonara just hasn't seen enough high epics (30+) to show it.
Do a search on this sort of thing and you'll see discussions over and over and over and over and over and over and over again on melee's vs. casters. Why aren't melee's more powerful, why isn't my class more powerful, why can that guy over there do this that and the other thing.
So let's clear the air a bit... casters *are* more powerful. *gasp* At almost every level of their progression they will be able to add more value in anything they do. But more often then not this issue rises hand in hand with soloing. And I'd like to address some misconceptions on the issue:
- First, remove bards from that 'power' list or Ozy will most likely hunt you down.
- Look at the saving throws progression chart, then look at the maximized DC's on casters level 9 spells (not including implosion). That is, DC 35 at level 17, DC 37 at lvl 21, DC 43ish at 40 I believe. Notice anything there? Notably, that you have a massively high DC at level 17 which doesn't change all *that* much over the next 23 levels. Now look at the curve on saving throws. For those powerful high level spells, the saving throw curve at level 17 up to around level 30 is pitifully outclassed by DC potential. However, the curve shifts at around these high epic levels, and saving throws by the time you hit 40 yields casters that are left to buff monkeydom for the broad spectrum of what they do. So yeah, until you hit very high magic, this is the case, and even then, there's still a window from 17-25 that puts casters in a position of overwhelming power. And in this regard I'm talking about mages and sorcerors more then anything else.
- Mass death, mass anything. The spawns on Layo are usually large, and therefore conducive to mass death spells. At those spawn sizes, a caster with a maximized casting stat will wreck havoc during his rest period and be able to generally kill 5-9 groups of around 8 creatures in rapid succession since he's hasted and has a full retinue of mass death, damage, or disabling spells. 9x300x8... that's a lot of experience progression *potential* in just 10 minutes. This is after that level 17 mark on mages, 18 on sorcerors. Not so much the other caster classes. With a rest timer of 10 minutes the caster is fully self sufficient since they can continue at an unbelievable pace, by themselves, not needing anyone else to typically carry on the group until they need to restock their spells. This is, in fact, an issue.
- Immunities, magic defenses, and plus ups. This is where the other caster classes come in. By themselves, clerics, druids... they really can't do all that much by themselves - it's usually limited to a small niche they are dominant in because of a certain immunity they can give themselves. The lack of 'balance' that you're talking about, is that caster classes are needed to give these immunities, magic defenses, and plus ups. Layonara is a low magic world, and items don't give you these properties. In the well balanced level 20 group you're looking at casters being able to apply all standard immunities to their melee's in group, in addition to what will amount to around +9 AB and +17-19 AC. Healing will be constant. You *can not* balance both ways. It's either balance for the groups or just plain balance it wildly soft. Layo balances for the groups, not the maximized groups mind you, but for the standard group synergy. This is why melee's can't do much on their own. There's not anything else to it. They need the casters for the immunities, defensive magics, and plus ups to hit the bar for what the monsters were balanced for, because the items don't exist to do it for them.
And I for one don't mind it. Things aren't meant to really be balanced, likewise the last thing that I'd want to see done is nerf'ing a spell or class.
The trick is empowering all classes, and the update you're going to see within the week goes miles in achieving the empowering of some of these red headed stepchildren we like to call melees. I consider it a massive advancement in giving melee's their shining moments and their playgrounds. And you're going to see a lot of roll reversal in what you've all gotten used to in groups. You'll be hearing a lot more on that soon.
But the core of this game system isn't going to change, the variability of casters will always allow what variability permits. The class synergy will still be there for challenges, and you will always see an niche for this or that class to solo. I'd say that everyone just needs to swallow that pill and just keep playing for fun, and taking the ego hits in stride.
;)
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WTT Epic level 30 Wizard with fullgear for same level Fighter or Melee person. /pm Blackguy
:P
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Only problem I see with current system is the fact Mage war parties being able to solo areas a melee war party could not, Means greater experience and as item drops are based on creature DC's. The variance and potential for faster advancement, and better items.
This is called unbalance in the real world and to blow smoke to cover the fact is just wrong. To say mages being able to waltz around east , gathering uber items not available to like parties of Melees and this is fair ????
But as has been stated above , we will have to give staff a chance to level the field a bit , Hopefully this change spoken of will be a step in the right direction.
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Oh, leveled playing field?
This is why I love being a rogue/fighter so much.
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Played right, the rogue is a valuable class. Sneak attacks can change the tide of a fight.
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Every class looks more powerful than the one you're currently playing.
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Clerics can't all be lumped in the overall even balanced crunch anything they come across class. Same was as not all fighters are as effective as others, not all wizards are as effective as others.
Really each character is different and in terms of cleris especially, the diety you follow really dictates what the character is going to be capable of doing. My level 15 cleric of Dorand is geared towards crafting so in battle she cannot solo without getting the snot beaten out of her. The same cleric of Vorax at that level could beat up anything they come across.
Its a matter of perspective and waht you mean by effective. If you mean a character that can run across Dreger and take on anything well thats only one type of effective.
I know of priests of Aeridin who in the face of the enemy will fall and die in seconds (unless undead of course) but in terms of tending and caring for the party and healing people just before they die they are invaluable and super effective!
So...really..there are all types of class, all types of races, all types of effective!
Thats why its so much fun!
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Here's the deal in a nutshell. Combatants at early levels (1-6(8?)) fair much better than Magicians. The Magicians just don't have the spell breadth yet nor the power and are also physically weak. In the mid-ranges the Magicians do tend to do better both solo and in a party. Some of this I believe is just difficulty in balancing perfectly. Once you go past Epic, sure a Magician can solo a few more areas than a Combatant, but they aren't "good" areas for that Epic and most of the good areas have spawns that are overwhelming to a solo character, no matter what type. This is where combatants shine again. Not solo, but in a team. An epic Magician can completely pump up a combatant. This pumped up combatant lasts far longer and is far more lethal and useful than a few deadly damage spells.
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Since my name was one mentioned at the beginning, I feel compelled to mention that it was through enormous amount of time and team work that Elly has gotten as far as she has. She still can not brave most places alone and realies quite heavily on her summons to do her leg work. Please don't feel that because I can cast level 8 spells that I can kick butt, it is because of those I venture with, knowing what they are doing that I have any appearance of strength. Or atleast they have the appearance of knowing what they are doing.
I have also found through the trial and error of my hubbie, that rushing kills people more quickly than anything and taking your time, alerting few enemies to your position and taking them out slowly makes a big difference than rushing headlong.
If I have to fight a battle alone, I tend to let my summons take the brunt of the attack and buff him with cats grace, owls wisdom, endurance, bulls strength, stone skin and protection from elemental attacks... maybe overkill, but maybe not.
I still prefer IC not to fight if I can avoid it but I do like to have Elly prepared should she find herself in a fight regardless. I have lost a ss to Malar for my ignorance or forgetfullness that Malar can see through invisibility and that DM's are gods that see all and know all so its best to be prepared for anything because when you start to feel most comfortable they will appear out of nowhere with some random encounter, whether it be good or bad. :D I love the DM's here!!!
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I still prefer IC not to fight if I can avoid it but I do like to have Elly prepared should she find herself in a fight regardless. I have lost a ss to Malar for my ignorance or forgetfullness that Malar can see through invisibility and that DM's are gods that see all and know all so its best to be prepared for anything because when you start to feel most comfortable they will appear out of nowhere with some random encounter, whether it be good or bad. :D I love the DM's here!!!
I did yell for you to stop, and did say malars could see! ;)
But yeah, this ought to be interesting.
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Dah, we still need fighters!
Who else is gonna be the meatshield that dosen't have a time limit (in comparison to summons)?
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*pulls out a dead horse and beats it*
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*takes her baseball bat and joins in*
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Played right, the rogue is a valuable class. Sneak attacks can change the tide of a fight.
Put a Rogue/Ranger together.....and eventually you get someone doing 6 Sneak Attacks per round.
Single classed I would think they'd be a bit weak....but tweak the classes a little and ooooohhhh *drools*
But....soloing. Heh.....foget it. :)
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*takes out his fighter only equipment ( immune to death spells , immune to energy spells , immune to sneak attacks , immune to stunning blows and 90% spellresistand ) and goes hunting for solo-ing spellslinger *
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Not sure if this has been mentioned or not yet but just thought I'd add my two cents as I play a 17th lvl sorc. I would like to agree with Bumblebee on the fact that soloing is boring. There are more and more places when it is possible but by the time that it is possible you are usually not getting much xp or gold for how much time it takes to do it... especially from the "magician" point of view. It goes great for a while you slaughter everything your ready to take on the next challenge and you suddenly realize you have two magic missle spells and a shield spell... oops gotta wait 6 more min. to rest uugh. Gets really boring and way to time consuming so I think the fighter/mage relationship is very well designed and quite symbiotic. Fighters allow mages to only use their spells when most needed and when they are most effective whereas alone the mage may end up running out of spells and have to waste a whole "weird" on one monster.
Just my two cents. :)
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You know...
Technically a GM is both a combatant *and* a magician... which leads to the logical conclusion...
YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DIE! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA *coughs* *shifty*
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A rogue useless in a combat party? I'd like to see them continuously hit over 30-40 damage at level 10 or whatever those numbers are. I usually hit higher if you average it all out compared to a fighter, but I'm not taking account in levels 'cause I'm too lazy to do a LORE check on what I'm saying.
Flat out, sneak attacks are the best thing created for the so-called combat useless rogue.
I meant that for a rogue to solo, it's near impossible.
We can't hide in plain sight, can't front (for too long anyway) and we depend on a Use Magic Device roll and scrolls to be able to buff up decently. Don't even tell me there are items that buff you up cause they don't last enough, not at my level and what i can afford anyway.
I'm talking about Pure Rogue here, no fighter levels for feats and whatnot.
As for parties, it's just beautiful. I can closely do the damage some party members do when they get a Critical Hit or when they have real high STR, and rarely even get hit.. Then again, there are times when you get a enemy with 3 attacks, 20-25 DMG each, Called Shot and everything, if you stay too close or get their attention on you, it's ugly and even so most of the times the other people will be aware you can't sustain much damage and get the foe's attention. So you have to smart up and keep moving around, looting (always!) and helping who has more bad guys on them with sneak attacks.
The thing is, as a rogue you -have- to be in a party to hunt. Or go get the 1xp stuff, it's fun but gets boring, especially when you realize they too can kill you!
Anyway,
Fighters and casters complement themselves really well here in Layonara as Kalin said and I think that's really good, I like the fact that you're encouraged to meet people and form groups..And the above obvious and dull statement is just to say I wasn't totally off-topic. See ya IG.
-Lino
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*pulls out a dead horse and beats it*
I think we should be more mindful of how we treat Dark Elves!
Hold on, have I wandered into the wrong thread?
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too funny
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The trick is empowering all classes, and the update you're going to see within the week goes miles in achieving the empowering of some of these red headed stepchildren we like to call melees. I consider it a massive advancement in giving melee's their shining moments and their playgrounds. And you're going to see a lot of roll reversal in what you've all gotten used to in groups. You'll be hearing a lot more on that soon.
Update? Oh my gosh cool!
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...the update you're going to see within the week...
*Counts.* Um...
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My Wizard is level 17 now and well she is not exackly the best soloer....
Granted she can hold her own while grouped & take out large amounts of giants...
However since she is specced more for rp reasons I.E she is focused on evocation magic & cannot use conjuration... I.E no summons for the most part.
Besides soloing is boring i barely do it & when i do its only when im close to a level like 20k.
I much prefer groups with nice solid rp for reasons being in places, so we can challenge some of the more unseen content lurking in this wonderful server.
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Well in any case, it makes good sense to me that a masterful spellcaster, or venerate cleric (read: high-level) should have powers superior to a guy with a sword, even if s/he has trained to the point that the weapon is an extension of their own body. Mind over matter! The powers of faith! It's maaagic.
And well, so what if they can solo whereas a fighter couldn't, I doubt anyone joins a community such as this and builds their character for a year solely to solo (hah). As has been mentioned, it's not very much fun after the ego-rush the first time around - because we come here to roleplay, and you can't quite do that on your own!
But just as a point of interest, I have nearly always played either spellcasters or clerics. :B
Edit: But as long as we're talking about imbalanced classes.... high level monks? heh
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Edit: But as long as we're talking about imbalanced classes.... high level monks? heh
Heh...
All you need is a spell that causes flat-footnedness, or something with a fortitude save..
Heh ohh heres a good one, or any creature with a DR greater that -/+3
I would recind that comment but for the fact that GMW cannot be cast on monk fists... witch would be cool, but thats NWN for you huh?
So unless that monk takes two epic feats to get there it will NEVER be able to damage a DR -/+4 or -/+5 creature... Witch when youre soloing on east you run into all over the place....
But thats why I go in parties, just cause I cant damage the thing, doesnt meen I cant knock it on its arse :D
But there is one aspect where no other class will ever be able to touch the monk...
And thats running away!
EDITED: Thank you stephen :D
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ColtCommando: Firstly, I think you mean "n/+3" - that is, DR that's bypassed by a +3 weapon or better. It's a minor detail, but one that really affects the statement - 3/- is just three points of damage off of every attack, which monks can do quite a bit more than with each hit. ;) Secondly, Monks' saves are all Good - the Fort will only be lower than the Ref and Will if their Con is lower than Dex and Wis. But apart from my nitpicking, you're right that monks aren't the top of the class at VERY high levels.
On a side note, best wishes to Nibor, wherever he may be. Hope our Project Team Lead is safe and sound, and just really, really busy. No rush on the update.
People are more important.