The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: twidget658 on June 05, 2007, 09:56:13 PM
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I was thinking (which usually gets me into trouble) since all the characters will eventually be gone, can the Soul Mother take a vacation to allow the players the opportunity to enjoy this last update without the fear of losing their characters.
It is likely most poeple will NOT develope their characters much further, or even make the transition to the new Layo, this will allow them the opportunity to go out into new areas, adventure with people that have been on the back burner due to having 9 or 14 SS' lost, and to have fun whiling exploring instead of fearing every transition due to spawns being inadvertantly set too close to the transition and spawn times (which some are still around from V3).
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Thats a great idea twidgy
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I personally would love this. My main character that I played exclusivly for a year and a half just got her ninth DT. I had planned on being super careful with her and trying to nudge her to level 20, one boar at a time. This would take forever I realized, but it was something I was going to try and do espcially since Storold proved it can be done, she is 18th level now. Now with the coming end, there is no way I can get her there, which basically means she is retired.
I have never seen the East server with her and I would love the opportunity to see all the things on it, but I cannot go there with her for fear of something strange happening and having her killed due to something weird. Her last DT was due to the invis bug, and I can't risk that again with her.
I also think it would be very cool to see everyones characters with 9 DTs come out of the vault again for some well deserved touring of the world.
Another possibility that I can think of so that everyone doesn't start just running wild would be to maybe cut the number of strands that everyone has lost in half or something so the threat of reprocussions for being in over your head are still there.
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I would rather not see the final year of Layo NWN become an OOC festival. The story goes on, does it not?
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It wouldn't become an OOC festival... Heck, the Mother's taken a vacation (though I don't think it was her idea ;)) before. Deaths did rise, but... All in all, it wasn't as bad as some expected.
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I'd prefer she stay.
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I don't know. This gives me a bad feeling. I understand the sentiment, a sort of "since we're near-ish to the end, why not make it easier for people to see the things they may never get the chance to see otherwise?"
I'm not certain where you got your information that most players will not continue to develop their characters. I didn't see any poll on that, official or otherwise, and haven't been asked in any other way. I can say absolutely I don't intend to stop developing Jennara. I'm still here for the same thing I was here for two years ago.
I get a bad feeling about this because it seems to lessen the value of the world. Layonara is not the areas, or the monsters, or the bashing thereof, but the lasting interactions with others in a world where there are consequences. Without the consequences, the world loses something. If stuntmen (and people in general) couldn't be hurt doing dangerous things, those things wouldn't be exciting. Part of the excitement and draw of such things is the danger. God mode is boring.
In this thread (http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-server/117122-state-layonara-its-future.html), Leanthar said this version of Layonara could be around until at least December. Seven months is a long time. I'm not prescient, but I've got a strong educated guess that a sort of immortality would not be a good thing for the atmosphere and roleplay quality of the server, and the server won't last seven months if the consequences are removed.
Having consequences removed near the very, very end, after the completion of the remaining plot quests and such, would be a different matter, but this far out is just asking for a quick death to what we've got.
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The previous vacation was actually quite horrible for some, went on far longer than expected, and breeded the whole generation of "Chaarrge!" adventurers...and was the result of a successful ECDQ.
Some of that does not apply here, as there isn't a 'next generation' of this server.
Still, I'm with PnP. I don't play here 'despite' the risk of death; I like that it's there, even though I wish the way things were set up didn't work quite the way it did in discouraging RPers that don't have perfect numbers in their later years. But the Soul Mother is IC, and her purpose is part of Layo - I don't understand, shouldn't we enjoy what we have while we have it, rather than decide we don't want what we have since it's going away anyway, might as well run around with nothing to fear for no reason except OOC we feel like it for the next several months...
Nah, thanks. Maybe when the lights go out there can be a final run around for awhile or whatever, but I don't understand why we'd want to make it like that for the whole last stretch, which is still a good long while. It just feels really OOC to me...and while it's cool to say, "they're going to be gone anyway!" if that means shutting down things that make the server what it is way ahead of time, it's starting too early for me.
I feel like maybe that's harsh or something, and I should just say, "eh, they're going to be gone anyway," but that's exactly what I don't want. I want things to be successful and fun and in-character in the current world, not just sort of give up on them all and say "well screw it guys, let's have our last go and not give a...care!"
I just don't play here for areas or high leveled monsters... so maybe that's just different, or something.
Edit - Too slow for Gulnyr!
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The Soul Mother will be steadfast in her random ways at the present time. No plans for a change in this have been discussed.
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Well, to be fair, I don't think twidget would have posted if he had thought it had already been discussed and decided, that takes away the point of suggestions :P
We can probably read that instead as: "No plans for a change in this are likely to be discussed at present."
*ducks* hehe
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I'm not certain where you got your information that most players will not continue to develop their characters. I didn't see any poll on that, official or otherwise, and haven't been asked in any other way. I can say absolutely I don't intend to stop developing Jennara. I'm still here for the same thing I was here for two years ago.
I said "likely" due to the posts I have read, no official poll (and the fact that some have already left, in the process of leaving, and those that state that they will not pay to play). It is almost summer and look at the server status.
As far as being here for the same thing that you started here for...I understand that. I don't expect that to change. Don't want it to change. I have player here almost every day for over two years as well. But I think it would be a treat for some players to play their other characters for a bit with the fear of perming (which will come sooner than you think, time flies when you are old). It does not have to be for the whole time, either. maybe for two months...three months...until certain emotions subside...whatever.
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It is decidedly certain that the Soul Mother is not to part these lands as discussed recently with Leanthar.
The prospect of a potential all out, no risk bashy time may be readdressed as time progresses.
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If you want the Soul Mother to take a vacation then do something in game to bind her powers. It has been done in the past. I remember about a 3 month holiday she took due to a player CDQ.
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A change like this is exactly the type of change, that I am hoping we won't see in the rest of the year that the servers are up.
Don't fix something that ain't broke.
Now there are other things that could be reconsidered, if you take into account the time left to achieve things. But taking away the meaning of death in the game shouldn't be one of them.
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In Leanthar's original status of v3 post, it was mentioned that there is a system to reattach broken strands of your soul. What is the prospect of activating that system in the near future?
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kill her! send her away! No really it would be cool to shut her down for now. The last time was not as bad as some make it out to be. Yes there were a few (just a few new players) that went nuts but most of us still respected death.
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In Leanthar's original status of v3 post, it was mentioned that there is a system to reattach broken strands of your soul. What is the prospect of activating that system in the near future?
This is actually something I'll run with on the topic. It's unfortunate to see the mix of two things: 1) a timeline on a server which ultimately encourages focus on one character, and a lack of interest in new beginnings 2) So many epics with year's investment looking at this timeline and realizing they won't be able to really begin anew and experience much different then what they already have, nor reach any comparable height of personal worth or achievment.
There's a dozen retorts to this... I don't care much for them given the two points above. But hey, maybe maintaining the theme of death for the long haul is more critical then breaking it in interest of character retention. That's an honest dunno there.
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In Leanthar's original status of v3 post, it was mentioned that there is a system to reattach broken strands of your soul. What is the prospect of activating that system in the near future?
It's not a system that got implemented in V3.
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I'd like to add a comment and a suggestion for the team to kick around (kick being the operative word, I'm sure.) And just as a disclaimer, I'm a fairly new player who levels quite slowly and has no tokens yet (knock on wood).
Comment: In the six months I've played here, I have seen a little of what could be called power gaming, despite the death token system, and I attribute that to the fact that true power gamers have no emotional attachment to the characters they create, and don't care if they run them into the ground. However, what I have seen more often is very good role players (ones who are deeply attached to their characters) get discouraged and quit playing after getting two or three tokens in a row, even when they're nowhere near 10. I understand the need for a brake on bashing, but I suspect this discouragement has always been an unintended consequence, one whose drain on the player base was not noticed so much back when NWN was new and lots of folks were flocking to the persistent worlds. Whether or not it's worth doing anything about this now may depend on whether or not the loss of players that many are predicting truly comes to pass.
Now my suggestion: in my imaginary future version of Layonara, I would like to see the Soul Mother have a kind-hearted daughter (for now, I'll call her Persephone) with the power to rejuvenate people. Persephone would mystically return people to an earlier version of themselves -- not just with fewer soul strands but with a significant loss of XP as well. This essentially would mean (I'm guessing) a system that stores backups of PC's in the vault each time they level and simply erases all later XP when rejuvenation occurs. People could choose how far back they want to go, but they would have to pay the price. If you were level 5 when you got your first token, and wanted to erase all of them, back to level 5 you go.
If someone like Miss Persephone was created, I think she should only speak to people in mid-life or later (ie, not before Level 10 or the equivalent) and should demand that they keep her company for a while (a RL month, perhaps) before she restored them to their former youth and inexperience. That should discourage people from running amok as youngsters or abusing Persephone's patience with repeated requests to be rejuvenated. A lot of fun RP could revolve around characters pondering when to go visit Persephone -- some might do it after just one token, some might wait until 9. Some players (especially those on the power gamer end of things) might not find the month wait or the backward steps in levels tolerable, and would decide to risk token 10 instead. And for them, the death system would work just as it does today.
Just my two cents -- let the kicking begin!
:)
Kirbiana
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That sounds very interesting... Though I don't think that this Persephone would be all that kind-hearted. ;) Mayhaps she just has a taste for the experiences of adventurers, rather than their souls... Knocking them back one level for each strand she reattaches, and only doing it one strand at a time, with that whole servant-for-a-month deal. As the adventurer relates his or her stories to his "kind" goddess, they flit from his or her memory...
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Well, I don't think the daughter thing is going to happen...like ever. Regardless of what version it is. Just for the lore reasons that is, but then there is also the fact that levels != age and all that...can have an old guy as a level one character.
The basic premise seems to be the reattachment of strands at the cost of XP though, which is something that they wanted to do anyway...and I imagine it would come with a cost, too. So... I don't think the story would fly, but the need that the story was made for is something that is acknowledged for sure, just that didn't make it in for this version... but judging by their comments I would think any future versions would have something to handle strand reattachment at a cost, whatever it might be.
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All ideas are welcome twidget.
I would not hope Soul Mother would go on vacation again.
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Just as I wished during the first release of v3, i wish the soul mother could be put on hold for the first few weeks of the next v3 release. When the first v3 release came out I stopped playing, due to the bugs and issues that came with the release, when all I really wanted to be doing, was exploring.
I don't think giving us a week or two to beta test the new release is going to cause this reckless abandonment that will ruin the server and the RP aspect of it. In those two weeks, the xps earned would hardly touch the tip of the iceberg compared the the xps earned during that double xp weekend.
This is the kind of move that is a good thing for the community and in the end will help both the staff and players. It will allow us to test for bugs and explore with the new changes. It will also put at least a two week break for Dorg, dealing with DTs, on the dispute forums.
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now why not do this? That is a stand up idea!
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All ideas are welcome twidget.
I would not hope Soul Mother would go on vacation again.
Why not?
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Why not?
Death should always, *ALWAYS* carry risk. Always. If it carries no risk, it becomes a first person shooter with no pause button.
Suspending the loss of soul rolls after a major release isn't a bad idea. Losing the threat of permanent death is.
The last thread I lost, I lost out of stupidity. I bit off more than I could chew and paid for it. I won't be doing that again. The one I lost just prior was because I engaged in bad tactics. I learned a valuable lesson.
If all I had lost was a few minutes play time, why wouldn't I want to run through The Deep just to see how far I could get?
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Death should always, *ALWAYS* carry risk. Always. If it carries no risk, it becomes a first person shooter with no pause button.
Suspending the loss of soul rolls after a major release isn't a bad idea. Losing the threat of permanent death is.
The last thread I lost, I lost out of stupidity. I bit off more than I could chew and paid for it. I won't be doing that again. The one I lost just prior was because I engaged in bad tactics. I learned a valuable lesson.
If all I had lost was a few minutes play time, why wouldn't I want to run through The Deep just to see how far I could get?
You are assuming the deep is still there and you can find it!!! Just like what was done with v3 on the first release, loot can be suspended, and even CNR removed. Just give us time to work out the bugs and learn the new layout.
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The last thread I lost, I lost out of stupidity. I bit off more than I could chew and paid for it. I won't be doing that again. The one I lost just prior was because I engaged in bad tactics. I learned a valuable lesson.
Those sound like legitimate deaths and loss of SS'. Try losing a SS due to lag, a bug, a crash, etc. It is a little harder to swallow and there is NO lesson learned by the charcter. They are OOC things that affect the character. The character lost a SS and he/she really does not know why.
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My main has lost six three were due to technical issues (lag and crashes. No GM or WL around so that is that). If you increase the chances for techincal issues.... well guess what.
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to Jrizz: I will get to you later if needed, but Laldieen gives a good idea why.
Further, isnt it the risk that makes every more interesting? The thing that an area is unknown and you as a player have to explore it? Does that not give you a thrill?
How do you think I and others found out - how things work on east? ;)
Well SS by, lag, bugs, crash etc.; thats why we have some rules for that. I am just thankful for that we have this oppotunity. Imagine if that service was not here at all.
Gotta got, work is calling
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to Jrizz: I will get to you later if needed, but Laldieen gives a good idea why.
Further, isnt it the risk that makes every more interesting? The thing that an area is unknown and you as a player have to explore it? Does that not give you a thrill?
How do you think I and others found out - how things work on east? ;)
Well SS by, lag, bugs, crash etc.; thats why we have some rules for that. I am just thankful for that we have this oppotunity. Imagine if that service was not here at all.
Gotta got, work is calling
But it is very frustrating for someone to have around 40 deaths and 7 of them you lost a SS. I love my main pc but hate playing her because it seems every time she dies she loses another one. So now I hardly play her at all. :(
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Well, I can honestly say that would there be somekinda payment for a the new Layonara, and there would be permdeaths involded, then I would not play it.
I dont enjoy loosing characters I have spent a long time working on. The penalty for acting stupid and reckelss could be solved in so many other ways than actually removing your character to play with. And if I payed for a product I would expect to have fun, and not worry about me loosing somethnig Ive played.
I dont really see why people say that it brings joy and good RP, by taking a persons character away. But I do agree that death should have somekinda penalty, just not one where you would loose your character.
I know that im quite alone with these opinions, and there is no plan to ever remove the mother from the current version of Layo, so I live with it, and play cautiously. I just wish that the fun would be put back into the game without worrying about that the game had to simulate a reallife enviroment, which it doesnt anyway.
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Those sound like legitimate deaths and loss of SS'. Try losing a SS due to lag, a bug, a crash, etc. It is a little harder to swallow and there is NO lesson learned by the charcter. They are OOC things that affect the character. The character lost a SS and he/she really does not know why.
Lag is an OOC mechanic. If a player notices the server is laggy and decided to go out adventuring anyway, well, gosh.
From THIS (http://forums.layonara.com/448805-post1.html)post.
What about excessive lag in general? Lag makes things more dangerous, I think we can all agree on this. When the server is generally laggy, going out and adventuring can be a truly perilous experience. If the lag is this bad, then the players are taking the welfare of their characters into their own hands. If the lag is that bad on a consistent basis, there's no recourse for losses due to lag. Now, if the lag is sudden and severe (and this is something in excess of what is experienced when another character logs on. I'm talking about major spikes or persistent lag that comes on suddenly and stays. The policy for such cases is already spelled out and I think fairly clear, yet nearly every request for a Soul Strand return that has claimed lag has failed to be accompanied by a timely request to reboot the server on the forums where we can track it. Also, in such cases, a GM does not need to directly witness the death but can be on the server and attest to the lag. Assuming all other criteria are met, this avenue gives a chance of reimbursement.
Well, I can honestly say that would there be somekinda payment for a the new Layonara, and there would be permdeaths involded, then I would not play it.
For me, I would. It would encourage tactics and intelligent gameplay, rather than the zerg rush found in so many of todays games. "Look boys! An ancient Red Dragon! Bind here so you can loot your corpse and get back in to the fray!" *blinks* Now, I have done **exactly** that. I played EQ. We would bind outside the encounter area, go in and I would nuke until I drew agro. Being a mana-burner, it wasn't long. I'd loot a few things off my corpse, move away, and start chain casting. Was it fun? Surely was. Some of my best times were the naked corpse run. Would I have done that if I had known I was risking something I had worked two years to build? Would I have risked my 255 Baking, mastery of every language, the people that sent me /tells when Lald the Bald logged in? Not a chance. I would have studied the monster, learned it's weakness. Crafted a battle plan that didn't include the phrase "NUKERS....NOW!"
I dont enjoy loosing characters I have spent a long time working on. The penalty for acting stupid and reckelss could be solved in so many other ways than actually removing your character to play with. And if I payed for a product I would expect to have fun, and not worry about me loosing somethnig Ive played.
I hate loosing characters. I also hate the magic "I win" button. If there is no risk, then every victory is hollow. If you know the outcome of every battle, why fight it? EQ/WoW/DAoC/ you know you will never die. You can a risk something that IC would be insane and foolish.
Say you are a good RP'er. You roleplay your character, you know that character. When you are logged in you think as that character. You get confused for a moment if someone wiggles your shoulder and asks if you want a pizza...With me? Ok. Your party is walking a path. You round a bend, you see a 10ft hulking beast, swinging a club and bellowing with rage. You look at your party and having seen this beast (you con'ed/inspected, whatever) you know it's going to be difficult for just you, but you have a group. You decide to attack. You win, but your victory is sour: one of your party lay dead. Your tactics were not optimal.
In that encounter, there should be risk. Every time a character engages in a battle, the character should be thinking "This time may be my last. This time, the Soul Mother may claim me. I will win not because I am stronger, faster or swing a pointy stick, I will win because I am smarter."
No risk = no tactics.
No tactics = Stupid behavior.
Stupid behavior = bad roleplay.
Ergo,
Risk = good roleplay
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to Jrizz: I will get to you later if needed, but Laldieen gives a good idea why.
Further, isnt it the risk that makes every more interesting? The thing that an area is unknown and you as a player have to explore it? Does that not give you a thrill?
How do you think I and others found out - how things work on east? ;)
Well SS by, lag, bugs, crash etc.; thats why we have some rules for that. I am just thankful for that we have this oppotunity. Imagine if that service was not here at all.
Gotta got, work is calling
Yes the risk is great if I am going into a tested, and stable area.
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For me, I would. It would encourage tactics and intelligent gameplay, rather than the zerg rush found in so many of todays games. "Look boys! An ancient Red Dragon! Bind here so you can loot your corpse and get back in to the fray!" *blinks* Now, I have done **exactly** that. I played EQ. We would bind outside the encounter area, go in and I would nuke until I drew agro. Being a mana-burner, it wasn't long. I'd loot a few things off my corpse, move away, and start chain casting. Was it fun? Surely was. Some of my best times were the naked corpse run. Would I have done that if I had known I was risking something I had worked two years to build? Would I have risked my 255 Baking, mastery of every language, the people that sent me /tells when Lald the Bald logged in? Not a chance. I would have studied the monster, learned it's weakness. Crafted a battle plan that didn't include the phrase "NUKERS....NOW!"
Steep xp loss per death brings the same kind of penalty.
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Steep xp loss per death brings the same kind of penalty.
Actually, that encourages grinding to replace what you lost. Every death in EQ cost about 10% of your experience to level. Get a cleric with a click-stick, you brought it down to 4%, which is still a nasty hit at endgame levels.
I would still prefer the potential of permanent death. Do I like the % chance per level? Not really, but I like the over arching concept.
**Edit* I realize I am coming off as a bit of a hardcase. I genuinely hope the people that disagree with me (and there are many) don't take what I am saying as a personal attack, it is not intended as such.
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Hey guys...
It was suggested above by Laldiien and it seems to have been missed by a couple of you, but the idea of relaxing the Soul Mother checks for a week or two after the major update was put forth. This is something I strongly considered for the initial V3 release, and while there were bugs, the number of Soul Strand losses to bugs (going by those which were requested to be returned) was low and did not seem to warrant such a temporary reprieve.
I'm fairly confident this next release is being, perhaps already has been well-tested for "killer" bugs, so I would strongly suggest that we stop predicting doom and gloom for the next release and see how it goes.
Soul Strand losses due to bugs have always been returnable, even if a GM or WL did not see it at the time it happened, and that will not change. Lag and crashes....those are things we don't have much control over and so the policy will continue to be the same for those.
There have been several other major releases over the years. So far, none of these significant/large updates had a reprieve from the Soul Mother accompany them. At this time, there is no indication that
this up-coming release will be so buggy and deadly as to warrant the Soul Mother being turned off. So let's all just have some faith and see how things go. :)
In closing, I'm curious how many of you would, if we turned off Soul Mother checks for a short time (if warranted), also support turning off all loot, gold and XP for kills during that same time.
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In closing, I'm curious how many of you would, if we turned off Soul Mother checks for a short time (if warranted), also support turning off all loot, gold and XP for kills during that same time.
If the next version isn't going to have any bugs and such, then making the Mother go poof will probably be a bit pointless to travel in the first place (well, after you finish running around like an insane person for a few all-nighters to explore the terrain). People only meet the Soul Mother by killing, bad tactics, bad judgment, or just sheer lack of luck...And most of this is during battles and traveling. As far as I know, most people battle for loot and exp, so ...
No Soul Mother + No exp/gold = No traveling to begin with meaning...No need for lack of Soul Mother?
I hate when I just wake up. I should really avoid posting. So long-winded.
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17) We are going to be working on the Soul Strand system to allow for a re-attaching of cut Strands through some method. We have it designed already but need to get some time to work on the system. However, permanent death when all Strands have been cut will remain in place. This is another one of those systems that will take some time to get implemented and it is not a priority during the transition.
I recommend making the penalty different on death. The risk of death could carry a gigantic XP loss... i.e. all xp to the previous level at the same % chance as losing a strand. Keep the 2nd/3rd death penalties as they are currently. That way, you aren't permanently losing a character. Also remove the dispute system on SS/XP loss entirely.
Actually, that encourages grinding to replace what you lost. Every death in EQ cost about 10% of your experience to level. Get a cleric with a click-stick, you brought it down to 4%, which is still a nasty hit at endgame levels.
I don't agree with your assessment as it is not a fair comparison between two completely different games. In EQ (or WoW), your character is only a tool. There were not hundreds or thousands of hours in their development or personality. There aren't any on line journals speaking about their exploits and there certainly isn't a community like Layo. If I lost a 64th level in EQ, I'd have a new 64th level in a month or so.
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Every death shouldn't have a huge exp loss, in my opinion. What about the same style rolling and if you fail the roll, you lose X amount of EXP?
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Every death shouldn't have a huge exp loss, in my opinion. What about the same style rolling and if you fail the roll, you lose X amount of EXP?
Hey, I kinda like that. You roll a 1 and lose the max XP loss. roll high and lose just a little bit. Kinda interesting
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If the next version isn't going to have any bugs and such, then making the Mother go poof will probably be a bit pointless to travel in the first place (well, after you finish running around like an insane person for a few all-nighters to explore the terrain). People only meet the Soul Mother by killing, bad tactics, bad judgment, or just sheer lack of luck...And most of this is during battles and traveling. As far as I know, most people battle for loot and exp, so ...
No Soul Mother + No exp/gold = No traveling to begin with meaning...No need for lack of Soul Mother?
I hate when I just wake up. I should really avoid posting. So long-winded.
Respectfully, I think this is the wrong perspective. There are always bugs. And as I said, Soul Strand losses from bugs were always returnable, and will continue to be returnable.
So if there were no bugs, then yes, there's no point in shutting off the Soul Mother rolls.
I guess I would have thought that some would enjoy exploring all the newness for a short time without as much risk, though consequently also without much reward outside of the excitement of discovery. Perhaps I was wrong.
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Respectfully, I think this is the wrong perspective. There are always bugs. And as I said, Soul Strand losses from bugs were always returnable, and will continue to be returnable.
So if there were no bugs, then yes, there's no point in shutting off the Soul Mother rolls.
I guess I would have thought that some would enjoy exploring all the newness for a short time without as much risk, though consequently also without much reward outside of the excitement of discovery. Perhaps I was wrong.
I did enjoy wandering everywhere when v3 first came out. Invisi is quite handy for that ;)
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In closing, I'm curious how many of you would, if we turned off Soul Mother checks for a short time (if warranted), also support turning off all loot, gold and XP for kills during that same time.
I've never played the sims before.
:rolleyes:
I understand your point there Dorg, I just kinda disagree with the tendency that's been taken over the years to say my way or the highway on the strand issue, and I don't mean to start a big fight, but it's almost always the stance taken by staff who don't regularly play any more. Something to maybe conceed and evaluate.
Ok, this is potentially mean to some folks, I hope they don't take offense. I think the SS system kills off one of two things. 1) The lowest common denominator. 2) Those who play non-survivalist character types.
In the first group, you have folks that are young, or not savvy to every aspect of the game. Likewise, you have people who have started, are having a rough learning curve, and by the time they figure it out they're around level 17 with 9 DTs. In the second group you have the non-survivalists. And by that I mean several types of non-survivalists. Roleplayed characters that simply aren't conducive to being safe, poorly built characters that just don't stand as much a chance in the grand scheme of balancing, or classes that are wildly fun to play, but due to mechanics and/or world balance, they tend to get picked off.
These types just don't make it with the soul strand system in place.
My high power caster who ran the underdark pre-epic has two lost strands. So I'd simply ask, who is this making the game better for? And yes, that's self depracation regarding my playstyle with that character.
Between two characters and 24,000,000 experience, or around... 100,000 dead creatures or thereabout... I have 7 lost strands. I'm personally not worried about it and know that if I needed to I could stretch it for the soul mother defense at any point needed. I'm not the one I'm worried about, and I mean that with every overconfident muster I can manage. 2 of them were part of unbelievably overpowered battles on quests (finale), 1 was due to the least game-friendly player I can remember, Mith, who dragged a demon onto me during a quest, again a silly overpowered punitive foe, while I was stunned safely in a corner so that he could then escape, 1 was lag death with no GM/WL present, 1 was a lag death with a WL present... I don't like being a dispute queen, and 2 were my own bloody fault. What am I saying? That 5 out of 7 of those weren't really of my own making, and I'm pretty darn savvy at staying alive. Again, with the elitist tone you can all make fun of me for, that's the upper end of the aforementioned curve. So where does it go for the majority of the curve?
What I do worry about is that every cleric I desparately need to go on any adventure that'll still blow my hair back... they're benched. They have 14 lost strands, they love their character, and are proceeding to accept the stagnation track. What I do worry about is seeing who makes the grade on atrition and who doesn't, what sort of playstyle we're perpetuating. I don't mean to say there shouldn't be an aspect of excellence to this all, but with all the discussion on playstyles, building for roleplay rather then power, and the grand environment that Layonara is supposed to potentiate, I think this model is a joke that's being proven in the stagnation or final deaths of characters that were true benefits to the server environment while the Abi's of the world progress without any concerns whatsoever.
This is the part of discussion where I proceed to get smacked.
I mean, I get it. You create an environment with true worth in the risk of life, the weighty nature of knowing your mortality, the atmosphere this all creates. I mean, it's a good idea! You want that feeling in the air, it makes everything that happens a bit more immersive. But not all good ideas work. I'd honestly call this system a failure of a good idea, and I just braced my chin for another smack. The concession needs to be made that the initial rulings of the developing staff are finding faults as you allow progression into the epics. Magic level I'd say has been proven to be off and never adjusted. Some of the systems that were hatched in a previous version of Layonara, where you had the ceiling at 20... these are proving to be poorly translated into what we are now playing with.
There's a reason Leanthar has been raising the DT ceiling through the advancement of the server. It's called adaptation and doing the right thing for the tempo of your game. I'd contend that the reason this was done in the past was because it had the tide of other developing members behind it, probably promoting it because their ear was to the stone of Layonara, they were in the game, they did have these concerns and were harnessing the support for change in staff forums.
I know Leanthar has taken a firm stance on this, with the general sentiment of 'how far is too far' with the tendency to keep raising the ceiling. And I'd say that in any dynamic development, there's never going to be any peace on this.
And I'm no smarter then any of the people who built it, so I haven't any server-changing ideas I've simply been keeping to myself all this time. I really don't know the right way to go on it. Permanence is obviously an integral part of the Layonara environment. But so is retention of the playerbase you desire to foster. And this current one is dropping the ball on that as I pointed out initially. Solutions? I dunno. XP loss in earlier percentages of the roll while SS loss is made a lesser possibility? No clue, it's just another ceiling raise when you get down to it. Though one thing to consider, and you'll probably find some truth in this... the player mindset you want to retain is going to be more worried about SS loss then XP loss. The player mindset that we could do with less of is worrying more about XP loss then SS loss (until their at max SS loss whereby it becomes a veritable full XP loss in their mind). So why are we promoting and harnessing the anti-mindset?
*hangs himself up on a chain and pads his clothing to make for a better punching bag*
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I have to say that Chongo raises some interesting points. But at the same time I'd like to think that the risks we are willing to take are a conscious descision, learning curve or not.
One of the things I would hate to see in an everdeveloping world as Layonara, is immortal PC's. They end up clogging up the world in my humble opinion. People had been making new characters for the next campaign for example. And what you saw is that they couldn't even get on the quests, because of all the heroes of the former campaign.
I have the highest respect for LFF in that he always strove towards NPC-hood for Lia. Perhaps that's the answer in this. Get to a certain point and your PC becomes an NPC. *shrugs*
Otherwise the world will eventually just end up with a large amount of top-end characters. And rather than having the world adjust to the rise in level (or whatever type of growth the next generation will have), I'd prefer to see some sort of system that actually works towards not only change in the world, but also towards change in the characters that are played.
If you want a world that changes, you also need its people to change. My two cents.
The DT system always seemed a good means to me, despite the fact that it wasn't implemented for this per sé. Though in your post Chongo, you clearly showed its flaws. But I wouldn't give it up without an alternative.
Now I have to add, that this post would have had more weight if we were all still thinking Layonara would still be running NWN for two years. But perhaps something to take into account for the next generation?
PS: And yes.. I am aware this post completely misses the subject about how removing DT's would remove the threat of death or not.
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I probably has said it before, and I will say it again.
The soul strand system is definitely my favorite one among all existing death-systems I've stumbled upon, striking right on the mark between hard core (death = perma death) systems and the "death is no issue" (WoW, EQ and almost every other NWN server) ones.
Ironically, if one ask some old players who was here during the "death = XP loss" days, almost all of them say they prefer the SS system. Although... that might have something to do with the extreme harshness of the XP penalties back then (not unheard of that people lose 2 MILLIONS of XP during a single night).
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Ironically, if one ask some old players who was here during the "death = XP loss" days, almost all of them say they prefer the SS system. Although... that might have something to do with the extreme harshness of the XP penalties back then (not unheard of that people lose 2 MILLIONS of XP during a single night).
I don't know about anyone else but I would much rather lose XP instead of my character all together.
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For the record, there was still a chance of Soul Strand loss in the old system, albeit a lower chance for those who reached higher levels than now.
And at least one character did permanently die under the old system, so the risk of perma-death was still there.
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Interesting posts Chongo and Filatus. You're outlining a great many problems and what you write has merit.
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@ Filatus: The heroes of the former campaign are still around, still very much dedicated and do still like to join quests. Yes, they took part in the previous one, but why does that mean they should step aside for the new campaign? They have shown that they care for Layonara (both IC and OOC) and they do enjoy their characters, who are likely at this point VERY very developed and have a long history in the world and its history. Telling these characters to change, so that the world may stay static is and to make room for new people on the campaign quest is not the right way to go at this problem. These characters have already been given a bad time on so many fronts, being accused of dominating quests and trampling the new people. It is easier to sit back and complain than to actually challenge these characters on quests. These characters are good at what they do and therefore not easy to best, but a quick wit and humour goes a long way at earning their respect. (What can I say - of course I am biased on this topic.)
That was several miles off topic, and I am quite sure it was not this that you were pointing towards. Change for these characters was a goal for several months via the Kingdom System. This would have allowed these characters to change within a changing world. Additionaly it would in all likelyhood have spawned different types of quests and would have kept at least some of these characters away from regular quests because they had too much on their hands to run around adventuring. Unfortunately NWN was too great a barrier for this attempt.
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@ Chongo: Many good points there, man. But don't think we did not discuss alternatives when the old system was replaced with the SS system. Don't think I am jumping the gun here and telling you it's the Strand-way or the highway because I don't. I challenge you to come up with a better system for everyone.
Yes, the SS system punishes the weak and high-RP players that don't go on hunts as much and therefore in all likelyhood die more often when they go. Combined with bad luck on the dice-side this creates frustration and I can honestly say I am sorry for that. But I, for one, want realism in the game - I want death to be a factor to be reckoned with. I want to flee from my enemies because I fear that I may die. I want the consequences - or I wager the alternative is that we all play berserkers/battleragers of one type or another, some with spells, some with armours and swords.
XP loss as a penalty. We had both to begin with. This way you will again punish the weak/high-RP characters that don't evolve/gain levels through bashing. What they get on quests (oh, and don't go on too many quests because then you'll be known as power-quester which equals - if it is not worse than - a powergamer) they loose with one death and the level that looked promising, along with the much wanted prestige class, is once more one month away. When we had the xp penaly those that complained the most were the ones who gained the least xp. These often are solid RP'ers and what xp they earn they in all likelyhood truly earned. The powergamers didn't complain because dying meant 4-6 hours of bashing, which wasn't that much a problem.
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Nah... I think we need to think out of the box here. We need a system that is codeable and efficient. Still it should promote the 'Spirit of Layonara'.
If you can come up with something fresh and new - shoot!
Harlas
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Hey guys...
It was suggested above by Laldiien and it seems to have been missed by a couple of you, but the idea of relaxing the Soul Mother checks for a week or two after the major update was put forth. This is something I strongly considered for the initial V3 release, and while there were bugs, the number of Soul Strand losses to bugs (going by those which were requested to be returned) was low and did not seem to warrant such a temporary reprieve.
I'm fairly confident this next release is being, perhaps already has been well-tested for "killer" bugs, so I would strongly suggest that we stop predicting doom and gloom for the next release and see how it goes.
Soul Strand losses due to bugs have always been returnable, even if a GM or WL did not see it at the time it happened, and that will not change. Lag and crashes....those are things we don't have much control over and so the policy will continue to be the same for those.
There have been several other major releases over the years. So far, none of these significant/large updates had a reprieve from the Soul Mother accompany them. At this time, there is no indication that
this up-coming release will be so buggy and deadly as to warrant the Soul Mother being turned off. So let's all just have some faith and see how things go. :)
In closing, I'm curious how many of you would, if we turned off Soul Mother checks for a short time (if warranted), also support turning off all loot, gold and XP for kills during that same time.
I would be up for it, for a short time period. That would give me time to learn the lay outs and explore some. I have stopped playing after every single release of a new version, simply to avoid the bugs. The risk has always far out weighed the fun of playing during those times.
Look at the v3 change, haven went from a low level zone, to one that even though the creatures were easy cons, they were killing level 20s. When the complaints rolled in about that, we were told to play smart and travel in groups. Eventually haven was brought back to a reasonable level.
Those are the reasons I simply stop playing/testing until things are worked out. If there were no xp, no gold, no soul mother, I would gladly explore and test for bugs. A short 5 days or so of that would be great IMO.
Edit:
@ The change of the soulstrand. I think it should not be level dependent after a certain point. I would say that it should never be more than a 10% chance, no matter how high you level past 10. Start it at 6% chance at level 6, 7% at 7, 8% at 8, 9% at 9, and from level 10 and up it never goes above a 10% chance.
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I want to flee from my enemies because I fear that I may die.
Can't...it is against server rules. You have to be considerate of your fellow players and not drag creatures around. Some creatures will follow you several maps and into towns. Combine the 'no retreat' (I know there are means like invis and other methods that will break contact with creatures, wait, those are bugged...well, you know what I mean) rule with the permanent death system and you get people breaking the rule anyway.
Dorg, I am willing (and have done it before) to give up loot, xp and the chance of loss of SS to be allowed to explore the new areas and fight the new monsters. I think that would be very entertaining.
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I'm not sure that example is really fair, Filatus. I mean I was heavily hoping for months before the plot even ended to have better roles for the former generation in the next campaign, so a new one could take over. And carry it into normal quests, too. Less mixing at the ground and more emphasis on abilities deciding roles. Moraken doesn't lead the fray against the orcs, the super PCs and WLs shouldn't either. But you don't see many DMs letting any PCs act in place of the World NPCs, do you?
They don't have any less involved roles to play, they don't have plot information dropped so they can run mini-quests directing PCs to go out and do stuff on their own, they don't really have anything at all to do that has anything to do with what they have done except listen to all the new PCs and NPCs trash it, relegated to either dominating a quest and fostering resentment, or sitting in the back and fostering resentment, neither of which are very fun. I don't think most of the older ones WANT to be told by super knowledgeable NPC what they need to do now, they've done that, they don't want to be tugged along through an entire new campaign. There was just nothing else to do, really.
I personally feel that the presence of former heroes on the newer plot quests is not a fault of the system or the fact that we should have tried harder to perm them, but because no one gave them anything else to do, like the idea was just to make the atmosphere utterly anti-veteran so they wouldn't even bother, nicely backed up by all the PCs that never really wanted them around in the first place. "Go retire or go to the Underdark a 100 more times, jerk!" Pfft. I totally agree that character need to change, new ones need to take over, I was never against that. But you can't force it. It needs to happen naturally, and nothing was done to make it happen.
Eh...I guess I ended up just agreeing with Harlas on that one and could have just kept my mouth shut...heh! *Shrugs*
I'm also with both him and Chongo on the whole strand system... it does breed survivalists; we all encourage people to forget about the numbers, build for RP, make meaningful characters instead of machine guns! But the flawed ones we love are the ones that can't meet the strain of balancing with GOOD epic parties in mind, and will perm. Chances are people that lose a meaningful character aren't going to risk the same thing again, and will either not try or just make sure all numbers are perfect next time, making for a character that is less rich in personality but less likely to be a victim to perming.
But at the same time, I think there SHOULD be permadeath, I think characters should be shuffled up now and again, that death should mean something more than grinding back XP, etc. I like the emphasis on tactics and caution. But...would I still play if my character's final death was to an orc or something? I dunno. I'd roll a new one but not sure I'd be able to stick with it. So I don't know. If most can agree on the "liking concept but not liking weeding out RP characters" but none of us can come up with a better system, it doesn't seem any better to shut it down.
What I'm curious about is, how much would strand reattachment change anything of your points, Chongo? That is, do you object to the system entirely, or would a system for gaining them back alleviate some of the problems that come with a lot of time to play with a 'flawed' character? What if there was no limit to how many times you could do it, but the price was steeper each time or something? Or just fixed steep every time in a fashion that people would rather be cautious about than have to fork over cost x multiple times? Or after x amount of times your deity was switched to "Soul Mother" and you'd basically signed off your afterlife?
Heh...to translate with fewer words, is it the entire concept you are dismissing as failed, or the current implementation of it, that does not allow for anyone to get any back?
(And yeah to twidget, another point against the current system of permadeath - encourage RP characters, roleplay, fear of death, tactics - then forbid running away and force everyone to stand until dead :P That said there is the whole 'common sense' bit, and running away can be done gracefully now and then. I'd rather make no enemies cross transitions except in certain cases - consider how far of a distance some of those transitions are anyway - than make them follow and forbid IC fleeing.)
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@ Filatus: The heroes of the former campaign are still around, still very much dedicated and do still like to join quests. Yes, they took part in the previous one, but why does that mean they should step aside for the new campaign? They have shown that they care for Layonara (both IC and OOC) and they do enjoy their characters, who are likely at this point VERY very developed and have a long history in the world and its history. Telling these characters to change, so that the world may stay static is and to make room for new people on the campaign quest is not the right way to go at this problem. These characters have already been given a bad time on so many fronts, being accused of dominating quests and trampling the new people. It is easier to sit back and complain than to actually challenge these characters on quests. These characters are good at what they do and therefore not easy to best, but a quick wit and humour goes a long way at earning their respect. (What can I say - of course I am biased on this topic.)
That was several miles off topic, and I am quite sure it was not this that you were pointing towards. Change for these characters was a goal for several months via the Kingdom System. This would have allowed these characters to change within a changing world. Additionaly it would in all likelyhood have spawned different types of quests and would have kept at least some of these characters away from regular quests because they had too much on their hands to run around adventuring. Unfortunately NWN was too great a barrier for this attempt.
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Harlas
Yeah.. several miles off topic indeed. So I will stop with this post. My post was not at all directed to the Worldleaders and what not in person or whatever form. Just that I noticed that how was dealt with the rise in levels with Layo in NWN doesn't really solve the problem. With the lvl 40 ceiling it would only have delayed the inevitable.
EDIT: I'd like to add that not at any time in my post I used worldleaders and such as example. Guess I could have been clearer to prevend this mix up.
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I was actually just arguing that your particular example was unrelated, not trying to imply you were attacking them :P I was more saying "But that's not really WHY it happened, this is why it happened!" Like saying if they stuck around, they wouldn't clog the world if they had something else to do ;) I guess I could have said that in as many words *rolls eyes*
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to Jrizz: I will get to you later if needed, but Laldieen gives a good idea why.
Further, isnt it the risk that makes every more interesting? The thing that an area is unknown and you as a player have to explore it? Does that not give you a thrill?
How do you think I and others found out - how things work on east? ;)
Well SS by, lag, bugs, crash etc.; thats why we have some rules for that. I am just thankful for that we have this oppotunity. Imagine if that service was not here at all.
Gotta got, work is calling
You know.. Varka you have a really good point there. The risk really makes it fun. I have had heart pounding blood rushing sessions because I try not to get killed. And yet I still want to go kill things because it is fun (and guess why it is fun? because I can die LOL).
Here is my only suggestion on the issue: Since the WL thing has now stopped but we still have the crazy 3 million XP to get from 20 to 21, how about moving SMD to a feat on or before 20th level (20 or 19 what ever level you get your last feat before going into the 20 to 21 climb). This is a very reasonable request folks.
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At the same time, the people at level 20 would also be hurt pretty badly from that... Unless they all have a chance to relevel and regain the EXP they had earned so they could take the feat, or it is given automatically by GMs at level 20 and just disable the SMD feat for level 21.
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Since the WL thing has now stopped...
This is not accurate.
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At the same time, the people at level 20 would also be hurt pretty badly from that... Unless they all have a chance to relevel and regain the EXP they had earned so they could take the feat, or it is given automatically by GMs at level 20 and just disable the SMD feat for level 21.
New rules dont have to be retroactive. I would be fine with it even though it woul dnot help my main PC. I would not want to stop something from being fixed to help others just because it does not help me :)
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This is not accurate.
I can't really comment on when we'll no longer be taking CDQ or WLDQ requests
If GMs want to run CDQs then they are free to do so, that is not changing from anything we have been doing for years. We may shut down WL applications at some point down the road, but mainly due to the amount of time it takes to plan and execute them. Those WL apps that are approved and pending or in-progress will likely be allowed to continue or be completed if that happens; but no new ones after whatever date we pick (if we pick one even).
This is why I said it.
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If chars are going to go away soon anyway, why remove a system, because it going to go away soon?
If your going to lose your char anyway fear of death should not really be much of a blow, if you lose it now and are gloom about it, well you can get over it before you lose it when the NWN version is dropped, along with which ever other one you have at the same time.
keep in mind no matter what your probly going to lose the char, so why not enjoy it? live the last bits of moments on it, enjoy the exciment of facing death and chancing it? Least you can RP them dieing in some fun grand way, on a big DM quest, rather then *poof* server wipe!
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@jrizz: Yes, but to say that the CDQ and WLDQ process is currently shut down is inaccurate. At this time, we're still accepting requests for both.
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If chars are going to go away soon anyway, why remove a system, because it going to go away soon?
If your going to lose your char anyway fear of death should not really be much of a blow, if you lose it now and are gloom about it, well you can get over it before you lose it when the NWN version is dropped, along with which ever other one you have at the same time.
keep in mind no matter what your probly going to lose the char, so why not enjoy it? live the last bits of moments on it, enjoy the exciment of facing death and chancing it? Least you can RP them dieing in some fun grand way, on a big DM quest, rather then *poof* server wipe!
Because if I understood correctly ...... there will be a way we can start our characters over on the new server. But you wouldn't be able to do that if they perm.
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If chars are going to go away soon anyway, why remove a system, because it going to go away soon?
If your going to lose your char anyway fear of death should not really be much of a blow, if you lose it now and are gloom about it, well you can get over it before you lose it when the NWN version is dropped, along with which ever other one you have at the same time.
keep in mind no matter what your probly going to lose the char, so why not enjoy it? live the last bits of moments on it, enjoy the exciment of facing death and chancing it? Least you can RP them dieing in some fun grand way, on a big DM quest, rather then *poof* server wipe!
Actually, we're talking about another year. And I for one would prefer to see people continue with Layonara instead of perm'ing their character in one month, and then leaving because they don't want to invest in a new character for the following months.
I am *unable* to find a group right now at my level bracket because everyone seems to have 14 DTs. It's discouraging, and I feel the focus should be on player retention right now.
But hey, sitting around on west all week, and taking low levels to areas 15 levels under my CR has been pretty fun. Aside from the fact that they're getting massively unbalanced amounts of experience, it's not a bad thing at all.
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Actually, we're talking about another year. And I for one would prefer to see people continue with Layonara instead of perm'ing their character in one month, and then leaving because they don't want to invest in a new character for the following months.
I am *unable* to find a group right now at my level bracket because everyone seems to have 14 DTs. It's discouraging, and I feel the focus should be on player retention right now.
But hey, sitting around on west all week, and taking low levels to areas 15 levels under my CR has been pretty fun. Aside from the fact that they're getting massively unbalanced amounts of experience, it's not a bad thing at all.
Yeah ..taking people way under yout lvl along can be fun
Unfortunately ..if your caught by those off the team that find it undesirable that you show new players( that are -way- below your lvl) around , you get talked too and made feel like a criminal.
I stopped leading people around for this reason , and i can name another few that have done the same.
Where does the rp stop and the power gaming begins?
I don't know and frankly i don't care.
As-long as it is me and another player rping and having fun , i'll take the warnings for what i see them to be....power-trips of those that ( seemingly ) cant bring themselves to rp with -very- low-level chars.
Jan
//typed this after a visite to a very nice pub , so if it seems too harsh ..sorry.
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I say bring her on! If she thinks she is going to lose us in the distant future she would get stuck into getting as many souls as she can.
DOUBLE THE CHANCES OF GETTING A TOKEN! GO ON! I DARE YOU!
Challenge! Challenge! Challenge!
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Yeah ..taking people way under yout lvl along can be fun
Unfortunately ..if your caught by those off the team that find it undesirable that you show new players( that are -way- below your lvl) around , you get talked too and made feel like a criminal.
I stopped leading people around for this reason , and i can name another few that have done the same.
Where does the rp stop and the power gaming begins?
I don't know and frankly i don't care.
As-long as it is me and another player rping and having fun , i'll take the warnings for what i see them to be....power-trips of those that ( seemingly ) cant bring themselves to rp with -very- low-level chars.
Jan
//typed this after a visite to a very nice pub , so if it seems too harsh ..sorry.
Not harsh. Happened to me a few times, leading around having fun RP, then yelled at and told should know better.
So i dont lead anyone on west anymore.
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No... No doubling.
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I say bring her on! If she thinks she is going to lose us in the distant future she would get stuck into getting as many souls as she can.
DOUBLE THE CHANCES OF GETTING A TOKEN! GO ON! I DARE YOU!
Challenge! Challenge! Challenge!
*nods* Yep, that should get rid of the rest of the players.
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Not harsh. Happened to me a few times, leading around having fun RP, then yelled at and told should know better.
So i dont lead anyone on west anymore.
Come on guys that is unfair comment.
Nobody would yell at you when you show someone around on West in areas that they are able to travel to with a party of equal level. As long as that player contributes to the party.
But taking a player to a place where he should not be or could not survive in a party of equal level is just wrong.
Let me use an extreme example:
- helping a level 6 character get the kobold stick, in other words he faces the fighting and actually kills one or two himself and you dont just run in and kill all for him to loot. Not a problem in my opinion.
- however taking that same level 6 character to Haven and clearing all the spawns all the way to the bottom so he can complete the quest or mine some CNR, while he cant even hit one of the enemies. Big problem.
So in no way is said dont help or dont join lower levels parties, but rather use common sense when it comes to where you take them and with what you help them.
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Im talking about just running around anywhere for fun. Not getting any quests, just having a good RP, and yes, just running around. Showing, not looking for any CNR or quest, got in trouble.
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Im talking about just running around anywhere for fun. Not getting any quests, just having a good RP, and yes, just running around. Showing, not looking for any CNR or quest, got in trouble.
Hawklen.....nobody will get in trouble if the characters are supposed to be in that place (refer to server restrictions) and they not actively engaging in battles which the lower level character is not suppose to face or completing quests including point of interest flags.
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Alrigt Aragwen.....I was with you right up to the point of interest flags. As a guide for Stormcrest I thought my goal was to show people around while enriching their lore...Which meant taking them to points rich in lore...which, sometimes, inevitably, have a point of interest flag. I mean, where's the RP in clicking a little flag that tells you "This place is important" Without really knowing why...?
I'm working on something to fix that , but I don't really see eye to eye with you on that part....
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Lynn, sorry that perhaps came out wrong.
I meant interest flags that can only be reached by fighting.
And I personally dont think interest flags should be found and explained by using invisibility.
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Hawk and Barion, part of the problem though is that some cases really earn the scrutiny, and no one ever thinks they did anything wrong - when someone who DID do something wrong sees someone else doing something they feel is no different (take a case where someone leads around the group doing nothing but killing for several hours, guiding the group out of their level range acquiring nothing but massive XP with nary a word... and a high level character guiding a group around, roleplaying, avoiding some encounters and running into others just for fun, telling stories etc) - and reports them.
What does that have to do with it? Well, like I said, no one ever feels they do anything wrong, true or not. What is almost always the case is that when someone feels wronged, they feel the need to make sure everyone is wronged equally...that might not be how its worded in their heads but something like "I got a three day ban for this and this guy is doing the same thing, he should get punished too!" When something is reported, it has to be looked into, whoever it is and for whatever reason.
Combined with DM changeouts where new ones are brought in and are breaking in the boots and unsure of when lines are hard and when they're blurry and try to err on the side of the rules, it seems inevitable that everyone in that situation is going to be talked to to make sure everything is understood, deserved or no. Then they will feel wronged and make sure to point out the next person, etc etc, upping the paranoia factor a few more notches instead of having a 'chill' environment. ;) Like getting reminded of language rules on the forums for something strong or minor but either way being said on the 'clean forums,' then seeing someone else (DM or player) saying a word in-game that your 6 year old probably has in vocabulary, objecting, and trying to ensure they get in trouble for the double standard. Just makes things worse instead of better.
aragwen, to say no one would ever get yelled at if they weren't doing something wrong is in the ideal situation, but it is the 'wrong' that is subjective in the first place. :) I'm sure there have been 'rulings' that were undeserved, and some that were, and some that deserved it that didn't get it - just the way things are. Your opinion of what qualifies as 'wrong' differs from mine; so long as it's not a regular thing and roleplay is had, training and storytelling all the way to the bottom of the mines, who cares?
Likewise, what's wrong with taking someone to points of interest IF the roleplay is there? What is a point of interest except a place you can explore/guide to and tell the history of to people whose characters have heard the names but not the stories, and actually have them get XP for the journey and roleplay? I have a hard time believing it's better for the spirit of the server and roleplay to have low level characters invising about and collecting the exploring XP with no clue what it's about. Which is what many are perfectly capable of doing on their own. Or magically getting some invisible voice spewing out lore to you like an encyclopedia without so much as a roll or chat with anyone else. Or worse, having some girl scouts badge assigner sending you to all kinds of crazy places as if people really go to the Rift to construct monuments. :P
There's a reason high level and low level characters are allowed to group without difficulty... they're supposed to interact more, or at least they used to. I wouldn't trade the couple of trips my character was taken on when she was below level ten. She didn't get massive amounts of unfair XP from them, but she did get to roleplay with some high level people she wouldn't have been allowed to interact with outside of Hlint by your definition of 'wrong.' :) Are we going to report all of the stormcrest guides for...guiding? It's an approved organization, it has an encouraged purpose that in many ways falls under what you put under a blanket 'wrong' label. :)
In the end though I'm not sure arguing about here it is really relevant to the current topic (said gently, I have whole essays of off topic posts...subject...what subject? Like this one!) or actually productive - it seems to only further the mentality of "out to get us" that furthers the rift that causes the misunderstandings in the first place, if they were indeed misunderstandings...I wouldn't know. "I never did anything wrong!" "We've never been mistaken!" "I'm perfect!" "We have perfect judgement with no exceptions!" Pfft. Impossible on both counts.
Anyway, need a new thread if that's the subject of today! Soul Mother... player retention good, fear of death also good, hard to resolve opinions on that, etc!
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Yeah, let's keep this a bit more on track.
To put it to rest thought... High levels and low levels together aren't the problem. The problem comes when high-level characters will "drag" lower ones along or allow them to draft along invisibly or safely out of range. What it boils down to is methods.
Perhaps that sounds a bit subjective, but as has been mentioned, there are both kinds of cases....cases where the higher-level character acts as a guide, and cases where the character acts as a source of XP. One is good, the other is not. We trust in your common sense to tell the difference.
Now, I don't think we need to get into any more examples of what may or may not have happened. It'll turn into a he said/she said kind of deal, and that's not terribly productive. As Acacea has said, perhaps some warnings were missed, while others were given when they shouldn't have been.
Let's let it go and steer back on topic. :)
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I think that Chongo are making good points here. Its sad to see characters that have fought the soulmother once and finally got to epic and got their 5 extra soulstrands and then a few lvls later finding themselves in the same position with 14 lost strands. :\\
The current SMD feat gives you 5 more soulstrands.. How about implement SMD II as a feat that gives an additional 3 extra soulstrands. :rolleyes:
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I worked very hard to develop my character to level 20 with 8 SS left. It would kind of discredit all the times I turned down opportunities to go some place too difficult, and all the hours I spent gathering and crafting potions.
AeonBlues
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I worked very hard to develop my character to level 20 with 8 SS left. It would kind of discredit all the times I turned down opportunities to go some place too difficult, and all the hours I spent gathering and crafting potions.
AeonBlues
Huh? How many times have you died? How do you control the dice roll? If you are fortunate enough to get a consistant party (same people) together, then yes, dying is a lot less often. But how in the heck does that affect your character's development getting to 20 in about five months with only losing 2 SS?
My main character has died over 180 times and has lost 10 SS (over 26 months of existance and played nearly everyday). Do I get good credit for being a good die-er? *scratches head on that one* But I know people that have perm'ed or have lost 8-9 SS with less that 30 deaths.
When you are running a 'safe route' and you get jumped at a transition or you are fighting and the main fighter crashes and everyone dies or when the rolls are just against you or how about when you lose 3 SS in a row, these are all things I have seen and/or experienced in the time I have been here. You have no control over these things.
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Pay to play = NO PERMA DEATH, Anyone stupid enough to try anything differant will spend a lot of time in court. If their lucky, the alternitive is a far more realistic understanding of the soul mudder, with only one strand!!!
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Well to drag the balance into the other direction. I would like to see something similar to the old system in place again.
Losing a lot of xp when you die. Have it minimized by raid dead, resurrection etc.
Removing the Soul Mother Feat in the new coming Layo and back to 10 SS maximum.
Why is that?
It will make you appreciate your character more ;)
Without perm death soul mother will be sad an lonely ;)
Death should be part of the game - death is normal
Seems players are afraid of losing there character and tries by majority vote to pull it in the direction role-playing of Tele toppies.
I hate seeing the basic/core/principles/main values of a game being changed just because people have played WOW, Rappelz or what ever game they were immortal in.
That was my 2 cents, cheers people ;)
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Pay to play = NO PERMA DEATH, Anyone stupid enough to try anything differant will spend a lot of time in court. If their lucky, the alternitive is a far more realistic understanding of the soul mudder, with only one strand!!!
I beg to differ. If you pay and play with the full understanding that actions have consequences and one of them may even be permanent death then the player has no grounds. You pay to play, not necesary the same character.
But back onto the topic, I do understand some people dont have a lot of luck when it comes to rolls, but the easiest way to put the soul mother to rest is to not die. Now that is easier said than done, but once you get the right mindset, you will be surprised how easy it gets.
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Ok....totally failing to see how if it's made clear BEFORE people agree to pay that there is the possibility of Perma Death for your characters how on earth they could end up in court.
Now yes, if there is Perma Death it may put off some people from paying but if it's a well documented part of the world and the agreement between provider and purchaser....They are gonna have to either not play or suck it up when their character Perma Deaths.
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I hate seeing the basic/core/principles/main values of a game being changed just because people have played WOW, Rappelz or what ever game they were immortal in.
*shrugs* I wouldn't know, I've never played anywhere else. I started years ago with layo and really have had no reason to leave or look at the servers. I may not like ALL aspects of the server, but I submit my ideas, recommendations, suggestions, concerns, comments, etc. for the staff to consider. If they take it and run with it, fine; if they don't, fine. Am I staying? Yep.
No one likes death in RL, why would they like it in a game that is used for an escape of RL?
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Back to topic even if I think this has been already mentioned..
There once was a time where the Soul Mother was on her "well deserved vacations" Think that was outcome of an ECDQ, not entirely sure at the moment of posting.. not that it matters right now in this example.
But what others and I have seen that even if XP-loss after 3 deaths was still in order the playing style of some changed as they had no fear the Soul Mother would get them. It was like "Hey the Soul Collector is having vacations, lets do someting silly." I know that is no quote after all but some might thought that way. I am not saying that everyone was that way but we likely got to know that the way as the system works now makes you take care of your character.
And as aragwen already said, actions have consequences. And yes I can talk about it as I was very close to perm more than once.
So what to do? Enjoy your character and keep in mind that they are not immortal after all.. ;)
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once upon a time in a land far away there was a system in place before wizards of the coast made dungeons and dragons a game for every tom and schmoe
your soul strands so to speak were limited to your constitution score
those of hardy stock could stand more visits
while those of frail health could find themselves to the soul mother much sooner
i speak of the resurection rules from before d20
if a fighter has a 16 for his initial constitution he has that many times he can be raised, or in our case has 16 strands as fighters tend to die much more often
the mages with a 10 in constitution has 10 strands
the mages are behind the lines so while this would seem biased in effect it would balance the strand issue
again this is only on inital as first level goes
raising your constitution throughout the life of the character woudl not raise the initial level of strands
therefore
im sure with our scripting team the soul mother can be tweaked
the roll for evading her gaze would still happen
but if you fail you know from day one how many times she can take a bite no matter how your character lives
a front lining battle beast of a man, or dwarf
or a studious but fragile mage once the magic is used up
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Man, this certainly would be good, the thing of AD&D of Constitution. Don't make THAT much chance, but it would be cool the rp aspect of the hardy fighter being able to resist the soul mother more...
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So Are you suggesting immortality then? ;)
And all ideas are welcome of course. Yours as well as mine dude
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Again, we have a limited remaining timeframe with NWN. Let's say... 9 months for kicks.
We have characters that are 3 years old with 14 DT's. I'd say there's overwhelming evidence that these players are not going to start new characters if they perm.
I agree with mortality. I also agree with player retention in the final year of Layonara. Which way should it go? I dunno. Retaining the atmosphere of mortality is in one hand, while retaining and perhaps even rejuvenating the playerbase is in another.
There are a lot of valid points for the current situation, in both directions.
Personally, all I care about is getting a cleric out there to heal me... and the only cleric has 14 DT's and is increasingly wimpy about doing anything... so my view is clearly biased. :D
My opinion? You want to keep players wrestling with mortality, but you don't want them to fade away, quit, and leave. Run an event, bump SMD to pre-epic, add another epic feat for a total tally of 20. Either that or make SMD +10, or run an event that doesn't freeze the soul mother, but returns a few strands to everyone in the world. Feats spent like this weaken a build, but shows the player's desire to continue on. Sure, 20 is just another bump and the bumps will never end right? But it will create that buffer for the remaining time, which is the only variable of this entire equation that is out of the player's hands. It's a timeline issue and nothing more. It just so happens that a lot of epics are close to perm'ing after all this time, and we don't have the limitless scope of before where they can begin anew and hope for greater experiences still.
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So Are you suggesting immortality then?
No, just a way to get more, reimbursed, etc. Using a feat to get more is huge. Everyone likes feats because it makes the character stronger, more powerful. But to make a decision not to 'power up' and to extend the longevity of your character speaks volumes.
We all know what the system is used for: Population control (some people have to be removed or everyone would make it to epic levels), discourage soloing (reimbursable with GM/WL consent), encourage questing, discourage running rampant and to stay within your ability and the ability of the group.
You can turn it into an RP reason easy enough, but these are some of the reasons for the system and why the system will remain.
For a low magic world, you are just eliminating the fighter characters with 'party fighting' (fighting within a party because fighters will fall before magic users) and the spell casters by soloing. A low magic world has translated into a world that is ran by mostly spell casters. Any doubt, look at the server status.
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We have characters that are 3 years old with 14 DT's. I'd say there's overwhelming evidence that these players are not going to start new characters if they perm.
If a player has one character, and that character has 14 DTs, and that player doesn't want to lose that character to permadeath, isn't that someone who is basically already gone? I'm not trying to suggest that bench-sitting is somehow not a valid type of play, but dedicated bench-sitters don't get 14 DTs. I know no one wants to lose a character, and I know a lot of people probably don't want to "waste" a good backstory on a new character that they won't have much time to develop, but people either want to be bench-sitters or they don't. If they don't want to be bench-sitters, they don't want to use up a character concept, and they don't want to lose their near-dead characters, then those players are already gone. They're just hanging around for the memories and hoping for a mulligan. I'm not making a judgement; if I lost Jennara (or feared losing her,maybe), I'd probably not be around so much, either. I get that. I'm just not sure I understand why players who don't play anymore out of fear of loss can be considered part of the player base to be retained. I just feel like I must have missed something in your point.
Rejuvenation, though. I understand that. I'm not sure how it maintains the fear of death to push back the end because there is a critical mass of comments, complaints, and whining about the system, but I understand how it can put some oomph back into the single-near-dead-character crowd.
Of the ideas you posted, I would argue vigorously against any small-scale event that returned Soul Strands to everyone for free. First, I think a character should have to earn that kind of thing herself (by making it to a feat level and choosing SMD, say). Second, I think that would partially cheapen the ECDQ that made that sort of thing happen the first time. I don't have anything against changing when SMD is available or any of that, but I do think the character should have to risk himself to obtain it. That, I think, would maintain the fear of death pretty well while allowing a chance for those mulligans. No guarantees. No freebies. No god mode. No 'I win' button. You have to risk in order to gain.
(As an aside, if you're so afraid that your characters will die that you just park them somewhere, haven't you already lost them?)
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You are missing Chongo's point entirely. The system as it is fails to serve the promotion of the world in the face a limited world life span. Right now player retention and growth of the player base is more important then the integrity of the death system or the value of some ECQD that happened a year and a half ago.
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What value is there in growing a player base by eliminating a key feature of the world, thereby fostering a false understanding of what the world is? Would that not, in some way, give the wrong impression to potential customers? The integrity of the world, in all its facets, IS Layonara.
There are better ways to promote things than by trying to rip out part of the foundation to change the paint job. The Soul Mother and her effect on the world is an integral and important part of the experience here. The ECDQ that caused the return of Strands is a historical event and part of the fabric, not just some punk thing tacked on because some people started pouting over lost and dying characters. Layonara is better because there is loss and tragedy, even though it hurts to lose characters we are emotionally attached to.
That doesn't mean I think things must stay exactly as they are. I just don't think permalife and free Soul Strands are the way to go.
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All I'll say here is this:
The Soul Mother is not just a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc. There's actually a plot-level purpose for her, and a reason for her doing what she does, whether she knows it or not.
;)
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All I'll say here is this:
The Soul Mother is not just a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc. There's actually a plot-level purpose for her, and a reason for her doing what she does, whether she knows it or not.
;)
Eeeew .. don't tell me she's a valkyrie after all Dorg and collects souls for Ragnarök *winks and hides*
But heh, serious now. Sure there a ways to improve the system without making a brand new one as I don't mind her lingering around, waiting for me. Nothing's perfect and nothing will ever be, but we can try to make it as good as we can do right now.
The Soul Mother has been around for quite some time now and I wholeheartly agree that some might be too afraid to go out with their beloved chars whereas they only have one more strand left. But not everyone becomes a "bench-warmer" or inactive. It is kind of thrilling if you ask me. Been there done that as well ;)
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Right. This information has been lost then because the people with the story do not play or are not around to tell it. Therefore, to 98% of the server, it is a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc.
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Some info about her can be found here..
LORE: Death (http://lore.layonara.com/Death)
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Right. This information has been lost then because the people with the story do not play or are not around to tell it. Therefore, to 98% of the server, it is a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc.
I don't want this to turn into an argument, but the information has not been lost, as it's never been distributed...and for a reason. Unfortunately, I cannot say what that purpose is. As a means of population control, incentive against recklessness, etc...these are all very valid, but completely OOC purposes. What I am referring to is a very IC reason for her, for her existence, for her purpose and why she does what she does. As I said, I can't tell you what that is.
That's not intended to make anyone feel better about her, that's not intended to bring back the dead or to stave off perma-death or otherwise assuage any of the other negative emotions surrounding the Soul Mother. It's just to lend some perspective.
Any resistance to the idea of suspending the Soul Mother, an IC force in the world, due to OOC reasons very much has to do with the purpose she serves and how it would make no sense for her to just kind of...stop. Additionally, how people behaved (i.e. OOC recklessness, exploiting the "bindstone express", etc.) last time this happened for IC reasons really has lowered the motivation level for another such vacation....for IC or OOC reasons.
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What value is there in growing a player base by eliminating a key feature of the world, thereby fostering a false understanding of what the world is? Would that not, in some way, give the wrong impression to potential customers? The integrity of the world, in all its facets, IS Layonara.
The value is in a growing and "sticky" customer base, a base that is needed to launch and sustain Layonara in its new incarnation and needed to produce the ROI necessary to make the whole endeavor worth while. Remember there are people that are investing a lot of time with the goal of making a living from this.
As for giving the wrong impression, well I am sure that the death system will need to be very different for a business endeavor to be successful. That is just a fact (a sad fact) and anyone that thinks the current death system will translate to a consumer world (pay to play) is being unrealistic. A business to be successful MUST meet its customers needs/wants and judging by the future customers that are voicing their opinions here, there will be a significant change.
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We have not yet disclosed what the model will be for any future commercial venture, in part because it simply has not been decided in a final state. We are well aware of the issues related to this for the future and rest assured, we will develop a system that is appropriate for the business model. Until such time as we announce how things will be in the future, let us please confine this discussion to the NWN incarnation of Layonara.
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But this is all about the current incarnation. For the future business effort to succeed the current player base must grow and have "stickiness", it is from this current player base (the NWN player base) that the commercial Layonara will draw its initial customers. This is the new Layonara's built in customer base and if this base is lost then the risk for the future effort increases dramatically. We need to grow this base to ensure a continued Layonara.
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I would be interested to know how many of us here now, the 'old timers' who may have characters in a near-death or already-dead state, the ones who care about Layonara enough to keep checking the forums and making requests and suggestions, who keep the world alive by continuing to play and run quests as if we had ten years to go... I would be interested to know how many of us are so caught up in our own selfishness that we would completely and utterly avoid the new Layonara should we lose our precious NWN characters before the very end. Somehow, I don't think it would be very many.
Check the people on the forums and the server status throughout the day. There's your stickies. There are new players dropping in, sure, but it's a trickle. Tossing out an established and important part of the world isn't going to do anything to change the opinions of the new players. A lot of them will barely have any acquaintance with the Soul Mother before all is done. The whole Soul Strand thing only affects us 'old timers,' really, and then only the ones who have a favorite character with one foot in the grave. If any of the established players should decide to leave forever because major facets of the world would not be changed to accommodate them, I can't say I would feel too bad about that. It would be unfortunate, but it might be for the greater good.
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Personally, all I care about is getting a cleric out there to heal me... and the only cleric has 14 DT's and is increasingly wimpy about doing anything... so my view is clearly biased. :D
With all respect.. I have 13 :P
I have been here with Layo longer then most and I guess you could consider me an "old timer" here. I have experienced losing one character to perma death and another character twice now to another. How does this really effect me with the Soul Mother staying or going? I am on the side that she stays and for the longest time she has been here for IC reasons and not just for OOC reasons. I have aacepted her being here and if as player I didn't like the concept I would of left long ago and not been playing here for four or five years now.
Will I not be a happy person if my character dies? Of course not but I be happy that I know that I have made my mark in this world with him and met alot for great people and groups and would be content with his story. And I still will be here and beyond. Just hoping it won't be too much to pay to play. :)
Would I be opposed to raising the roof a little and giving another feat for SMD defense at level 30? I would love it! Would give me a reason to go for level 30 and try to become the Diamond of Beryl.
But until then. I will pick my battles and adventures knowing that I am still not done with Quill and knowing there is more "good" that he could do and alot more promises to be kept.
just my two worthless cents. :p
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I would be interested to know how many of us here now, the 'old timers' who may have characters in a near-death or already-dead state, the ones who care about Layonara enough to keep checking the forums and making requests and suggestions, who keep the world alive by continuing to play and run quests as if we had ten years to go... I would be interested to know how many of us are so caught up in our own selfishness that we would completely and utterly avoid the new Layonara should we lose our precious NWN characters before the very end. Somehow, I don't think it would be very many.
Check the people on the forums and the server status throughout the day. There's your stickies. There are new players dropping in, sure, but it's a trickle. Tossing out an established and important part of the world isn't going to do anything to change the opinions of the new players. A lot of them will barely have any acquaintance with the Soul Mother before all is done. The whole Soul Strand thing only affects us 'old timers,' really, and then only the ones who have a favorite character with one foot in the grave. If any of the established players should decide to leave forever because major facets of the world would not be changed to accommodate them, I can't say I would feel too bad about that. It would be unfortunate, but it might be for the greater good.
I of course dont disagree with you. But the 10 or 20 of us that you are talking about do not a customer base make. We tend to think in terms of emotion and not business when it come to this world that we feel so close too.
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Well......ten bob here....( thats about a dollar )
I'd rather not lose the Soul mother. Losing XP aint "that" much of an issue. But having the possibility of losing your character due to being stupid and foolhardy....ie....charging the Deep....well....that keeps you a little sharp.
There aint nothing like a healthy fear of Perming to keep your character IC when it comes to going crazy and hard places.
I've opted out of a few excursions to such places for fear of this...which is IC for my guy anyway. But to be honest....if I knew all I would loose is XP....Pfft! I'd go the Deep twice a day.
*shrugs* Just a thought. And Im on my 9th DT...so er....I aint biased.
:)
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I think people should start looking at the Soulmother as part of the Layonara lore, not as a gamemechanic.
You can't just abolish her, so any suggestions in that direction are flawed to begin with, because they fail to take into account how integrated the soulmother is in the history of Layonara.
The scaled DC with rise in level. Now that is something that is worth discussing. Because for example, it disadvantages weak (rp-)builds that do gain a high level.
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I second Tobias' motion. I've been here a while, lost a very beloved character to perma-death, and I still play, will play, promote, and help build the world day to day.
Oddly, the chance for perma-death is one of the things that kept me here. The edge of realism and grit such risk provides is thrilling. Those of you who knew Cole knew that he never stopped or slowed down, and that he was seven SS losses and above for most of his life.
Speaking purely IC, adventurers who don't appreciate everyday that they can die and come back are beyond stuck-up. 99% of the population dies once. There even has to be some NPC adventurers who aren't called to be bound to the stones. You're character is going to die. If you have multiple chances, and someone else doesn't, don't waste that gift. Take the risks. Let your character live their live to the fullest extent.
Better to die living than live like you're already dead. (I'm with you, Gulnyr)
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...due to being stupid and foolhardy....ie....charging the Deep....well....that keeps you a little sharp.
50% of my loss SS was due to game mechanics! How does that affect my character? Since there is no GM or WL that witnessed it, I can't get those back. I have chose my battles, I have turned down risky runs, just like everyone else...I don't have a problem with those.
Going through a transition and getting jumped (GAME MECHANIC), invis bug/GSanc bug (GAME MECHANIC), release of a new version with bugs (GAME MECHANIC), lag (GAME MECHANIC), dying while crashing (GAME MECHANICS)...so to say you can't think of it in the 'game mechanic' way is asinine.
No disputes show that people are fine with it? No. The guidelines are so strict that most people don't even bother.
GM block empty *stamped denied* denied from the get go.
Why even bother anymore? It has become so OOC that it hardly makes IC sense. The story can't be told for whatever reason...if it was told, maybe people would come back to understanding the IC reason she is around.
For the 'old timers', which I have been here for years myself and have donated almost that whole time every month since being a member, have never lost a character to the Soul Mother. I have came close. So I am thinking that I have made some go decisions (nope, just lucky on the dice roll). The only way that you can say that you have made good decisions is if you have died less then 10 times. Any number over that, your character could have perm'd.
To say that people that have left is for the greater good of the server is just plain out back stabbing! They were an integral part of growing this server. To hold it against them for leaving is out right wrong.
People can support the Soul Mother and that is fine. But don't slam on people for leaving because they lost something or support it with claims of you being more superior and are better because you stayed and made it through the suffering.
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Twidgit I sincerely hope this little comment doesn't make you angry as its not my intention:
It sounds to me like you have a problem with the way soul strand reimbursements are handled rather than with the system itself. This is understood and in my opinion justified by the situations you or your friends have faced, however I'm not sure this is the best thread to take this up in. I'd suggest starting a new one, petitioning to the DMs with a PM etc. I'm sure you'll find those who agree with you.
That said I actually agree with a lot of your points.
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It sounds to me like you have a problem with the way soul strand reimbursements are handled rather than with the system itself.
My points were made to other comments in this thread. Reimbursements are just ONE issue with the WHOLE system.
When someone says that it is all IC and half of the SS' are lost due to OOC events, it is hard to follow his/her logic, especially with the 'choose your battle' mentality. That only affects a portion of the lost SS'.
Like I said before, I have not lost a character to the Soul Mother and my main one still has five to go. So this affects me little...right now. But when they come back-to-back-to-back, it is hard to support a system that seems unfair. Have you ever tried to perm a character? I know someone that has and died over 600 times. This character had an excellent IC/RP reason for doing it. But what about the people who perm with under 50 deaths?
Therefore, these points aren't necessarily for me, but for the others who do not post.
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To say that people that have left is for the greater good of the server is just plain out back stabbing! They were an integral part of growing this server. To hold it against them for leaving is out right wrong.
This didn't happen. I said that anyone who leaves solely because an integral, important part of the world is not changed to suit their individual taste is not really going to be a loss. Those would be people too caught up in their own selfish desires to understand that the world is not theirs to shape willy-nilly for their own personal pleasure and satisfaction. That's not the sort of people to retain to foster and grow this particular community.
This is actually something that concerns me about a pay-to-play system, since people who pay for things often feel like they should have things their way, but that's a concern for another day.
People can support the Soul Mother and that is fine. But don't slam on people for leaving because they lost something or support it with claims of you being more superior and are better because you stayed and made it through the suffering.
No one has said that anyone who left after a loss was wrong, or that anyone still here is better than anyone else. If anything I said sounds like that, it was accidental. Even what I just said doesn't mean I think I'm necessarily better than people with selfish desires, because to one extent or another, we're all selfish. There's a difference between getting what you want and getting what you want within the scope and confines of the world, though. The second one is "better."
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It's a little off-topic, but if anyone has a workable, meaningful suggestion as to how to handle disputes for Soul Strands that a) does not require the GM/WL (i.e. highly trusted) witness and b) is not open to rampant abuse as it was prior to the need for witnesses, such that Soul Strand loss because almost as meaningless as not having a Soul Mother at all, then I am more than willing to listen to the suggestion.
Way long ago, a well-justified PM to Leanthar was all it took for a Soul Strand to be refunded. At some point, Rhizome took it upon himself to hear not only Soul Strand requests but any sort of loss/grievance issue, and the Grievance/Request/Reimbursement process was born. Criteria were established...this was basically the "Three Yeps" criteria, meaning three people had to post in support of the claim. Fair, yes, but it was sadly abused...so much so that every Soul Strand that nearly every Soul Strand that was lost was refuted and supported, whether legitimate or not. I lost count of how many times someone was denied after lots of questions and answers and investigations, only to respond with "Oh well, I didn't think I'd get it back, but I had to try, right? ;) " Sadly, the work it takes to tell the difference is non-trivial. At some point in there, I informally took over the process, handling both the processing end as well as the investigation and often refunding portions of the process.
The amount of time required to handle things was crushing, and far too often, the deciding factor of whether or not the request (be it Soul Strands or something else) boiled down to whether or not I personally believed the account to be true, based on reports and on what our logs showed, whether the data I could gather was ambiguous or in conflict with the verbal account, etc. While perhaps a lot more requests came out in favor of the requester, the fact that my personal judgment had become an integral part of the process was really not all that equitable.
And yeah, the whole perception that some people were favored over others was very common in that system. I got many questions why X was approved but Y was not. All had justifiable reasons, but it didn't soothe the hurt feelings of those who were denied, and there was no way everyone could be happy.
So after a lot of thought (and yes, I do mean a lot) and conversations with Leanthar, I came up with a new set of guidelines which were not as dependent upon personal belief and relied heavily on verifyable accounts (i.e. GM/WL witnesses) and as much proof as the requester could provide. I fully realize that this system is not perfect, but it is the best I could come up with.
Sadly, we now have a perception of another kind of favoritism. Those favored enough to adventure with a GM or WL player will usually get approved while everyone else is out of luck. Once again, not everyone can be happy.
So in all seriousness, I ask you all....if you have a better suggestion on how to handle the requests in a meaningful way that maintains the integrity of the whole system, that is fair and equitable, that is not subject to abuse and which is reasonably efficient to manage, then we will surely consider it. If it works out, it can only make this place better in the long run. I'm very serious about this. Make a suggestion.
For the record, losses due to verifiable bugs, especially after new version releases and getting jumped at transitions due to monsters left over from someone else (which is also verifiable) are absolutely refundable.
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"Sadly, we now have a perception of another kind of favoritism. Those favored enough to adventure with a GM or WL player will usually get approved while everyone else is out of luck. Once again, not everyone can be happy."
What about more of these trusted people? Not neccesarily World leaders not neccesarily (ill never spell that right) GMs: People that are both trusted AND prone to traveling with different sets of people; People who are of a range of different levels.
You have Character Approver applications. Project Team applications, GM applications, Writing Team applications.
What about a Dispute team? Im sure that in order to make something more fair and more balanced people would, indeed volenteer for this.
Sure there may be screams of favoritism and "Well this person is trusted and this person isnt" but at the VERY least , you may have MORE people to do the work, both making it a shorter affair AND leading to a more spread out group of people able to oversee events with different groups that way something like this is at the very least less likely to happen.
Then again Dorg I bring this to you because if anyone can say "This wont work" Fairly and nicely its you =P
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I think people should start looking at the Soulmother as part of the Layonara lore, not as a gamemechanic.
The scaled DC with rise in level. Now that is something that is worth discussing. Because for example, it disadvantages weak (rp-)builds that do gain a high level.
The problem with your first point is the concession that follows. Anyone really set on arguing this is lost in the sauce in my not so humble opinion.
Our mechanic is breeding the problem. Stretch this out over a few elven generations... who do you think the shaping survivors would be? And bearing in mind the immediate retort... do you really think a subjective GM monitoring system should be responsible for buffering a broken mechanic?
And Daeron, you know I'm not picking on you... just extracting yours because I know you won't be offended.
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I think people should start looking at the Soulmother as part of the Layonara lore, not as a gamemechanic.
The problem with your first point is the concession that follows. Anyone really set on arguing this is lost in the sauce in my not so humble opinion. Our mechanic is breeding the problem.
Forgive me, but I think I have misunderstood again. If the mechanic is the problem, and the problem can be reduced or removed by changing the mechanic, how does that equate to the notion of seeing the Soul Mother as an integral part of the world rather than an OOC mechanic being flawed?
Filatus's point seems to be "don't lobby to remove the Soul Mother and her effects; lobby to change how the rolls work," which seems perfectly reasonable.
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I do not consider the soulmother script a broken mechanism. The problem is created by lag, crashing etc.
Which, are for the most part the result of hardware/software on the player's side. There are people who can play this game without a single crash. And then there are people who crash a lot and yes, they run a bigger risk. Not always will there be a WL or GM present to give testimony of the circumstances.
And if people in the past hadn't abused the dispute system....
But I disagree with your assumption that the mechanic is inherently broken. The mechanic doesn't cause the lost soulstrands, crashes and lag do. And yes, I think this subjective gm monitoring system is better than none at all, because it will allow for buffering of soulstrands or xp lost due to ooc happenings. And these happenings are more than often caused by something on the player's side and not on the servers themselves.
Then there is your other point of playerskills reflecting in character survivability. Well, luckily we have quests for those people. And it will always be a pity not everyone can attend these. But fair is fair, Layo allows characters to level by other means than combat.
EDIT: And yes, as Gulnyr posted more clearly than I could, I'm not stating that the system is 'broken'. I'm saying that, as with the lootsystem or spawns, you can always consider whether there are better approaches.
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Yep - misunderstood.
Filatus's quote that it might be to the disadvantage of "weaker (rp-) builds" was what I am continually referring to. Maybe a poor coupling of phrases... I dunno. I don't mean to cause trouble here.
I have two points I'm trying to offer here.
1) We have a unique situation currently that demands flexibility.
2) We have the opportunity to start thinking about the future generations.
You can talk all day about the IC aspects of the soul mother and how integral she is to the server but the fact remains that the mechanic of DT's and perm'ing is to the detriment of weaker 'builds'. And hey, no issues here. I know that the chances are in favor of me hitting 40 with any character I make. But is that who you want as your epics? Your individuals of great power in the lands? While the split stat rangers or true to raging barbarians die off? Granted, I don't have much of a case. We don't have many people dying off, a couple dozen we never hear about since they never hit making their mark perhaps. But we certainly have a few who have faded away, and a few that cringe at their certain death.
Your contention that DT's happen mostly due to computer issues I think is mostly wrong. Some builds die. Others don't. There's no great mystery in this. I don't need to further myself in self depracation or that of some of the other commentators here on survivalist builds. I fear that if you were to let NWN Layo stretch on for another 5 years... we'd see some issues in this. And guys, it's not a grave issue. I just think that if you are going to take the stance that this server strives for an outstanding player mindset, then we should stop dangling cookies in front of the faces of survivalists.
You know... I mostly bite my tongue on this. I think that it's a great thing that the atmosphere here permits the epic nature of facing death. There is no doubt that this is a good thing for atmosphere. But I also think we're in a unique scenario currently with 'facing death'... of the server, as well as in the unique scenario of looking forward at another umpteen years of Layonara, and the demands of good thought on what's been learned.
And regarding my comment on GM buffering Daeron, you misunderstood. By buffer I mean that I don't think it should be up to the subjective and individual decisions of a staff to decide who will attrite. Not who gets tokens back etc... rather... the wary eye towards those biting at the obvious cookie floating in front of their face. Why is there a dangling cookie? That mechanic that begs the question for every player 'how will I avoid losing my character?'. There is no denying that people try to get 'better' at this game. If I could grasp everything that Mr. Scott has in his head of what's truly 'better'... it's probably not the survival mechanics he wants eyes towards. That's the question for the future Layonara. And right now... well right now it's just about making the most of our character's time left... and you can't blame anyone for wanting things to continue so they can feebly grasp onto their strained motivation to bridge the gap between what is, and what is waiting on an uncertain horizon.
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Thanks for the clarification.
I appreciate what you're saying about the future. Things have been learned, and there can be major changes and/or minor adjustments to make the new Layonara's death system better. This thread even got me doing a little mental exercise that resulted in a rough foundation for a system that would allow both Strand-getting permadeath candidates and Strandless immortal characters to exist in the same world and go on the same quests side-by-side. But none of that talk matters. We were asked to focus on the here and now of Layonara:
Until such time as we announce how things will be in the future, let us please confine this discussion to the NWN incarnation of Layonara.
We all know that there is only so much time left here, but this thread is about doing something now, not later. At least, that's what it used to be about. Unfortunately, the topic is tougher than it first seems. It isn't easy to come up with a system that's fair, and takes all of our subjective notions of character value into account, and account for various imbalances (real or imagined) between classes, plus any other necessities, and still have it run automatically in NWN. On top of that, some people have already decided the NWN version of Layonara is finished, which is not the best atmosphere for good ideas and timely implementation.
Maybe it's not as complicated as it seems to me. Everyone seems to have a different notion of what it should be and should do, without being able to distill it down into a concise definition that can be turned into a new system, though, so it sounds pretty complicated. I don't have any good suggestions. I mean, I can see how some basis on Constitution would be a good thing, but that shouldn't be all there is; that would just be a modifier. Maybe a higher Constitution would mean more Soul Strands, or maybe it would only modify the roll to make it more difficult to lose them. *shrug* And I can imagine that class might have something to do with it, sort of like hit dice, but it's not easy to explain why, say, a Fighter or Ranger should have more Soul Strands or less chance of losing them than a Wizard or Bard. And how would multiclassing be handled? And how would the system differentiate between an archer and a front-liner? Either could be a Fighter or a Ranger, but an archer in leather armor is much, much safer than a front-liner in leather armor. And more importantly, should the system differentiate? The equipment choice and role in combat is up to the player, after all, and the system isn't at fault if the player makes an unwise choice. It's not the system's fault that I wouldn't keep Gulnyr's leather-clad carcass out of the fray, right?
That goes right back to disadvantaging characters who are built with RP-reasoning rather than thrown together for power and perfection... I don't know. In a way, I can see how that could lead to the server being top-heavy with the power-builds (and the lucky). At the same time, it's a case of keeping up with the Joneses. Who cares what someone else's character build is? Do you like your character? Are you playing the character you want to play? I kind of wiggle between these. I don't like the idea that building for performance rather than role-play leads to improved survival, but that's just one of the side effects of NWN, so I'm trying to make the best of it and enjoy the RP.
I could go on all day, probably, and continue to say nothing important. I guess the essence of this post is: What about now? Is there a way to modify the system without tearing up the world's background and lore so that long-standing players with nearly-dead characters have a better chance (not a guarantee) to make it to the end? It's not about favorites, but about making an effort to keep the players we have active in the world without ruining the flavor of the world to do it.
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There was a long thread on ideas for new SS systems.
http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/117642-suggestion-augmented-soul-strand-loss-return.html
including my own ideas that I will re-post here:
1. Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level and have the earning go to one every three levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. But there will no longer be the hopelessness of "only one SS left". There will always be the hope that you can make it to the next time you can earn one. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul. There are other reasons why this is a good way to go but I dont need to spell them all out.
2. Death means loss of play time.
In this method when you die and respawn you go right to the eye of the storm and you cannot enter the world again for 24 hours (could make it 30 so that it would really mean missing a lot) RT. With that there is no chance of SS loss. If you chose to wait for a RD or R spell then you risk the loss of a SS (resurrect would have the current % chance and RD would have some modifier so that the risk was higher). This way you would have to let your party know before setting out if you wish to be "helped" by a cleric if you die.
Both of these keep the Soul Mother in play just in a way that puts some hope or control into the players hands.
The indication in that thread was that there would be no change in the short term. I think that is why this thread is more about how to move forward and why we need to think outside the box.
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I like the first idea Jrizz....
Here's one: Rolls Vs Soul mother on respawn rather than death. It dissuades people from soloing since they won't have a cleric to raise them, however if may bring about more "Clerics are the most overpowered!!!1111 we cant go without them!"
Or it may just up the market for Raise dead scrolls ;)
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I vote for anything that up's the market for Raise Dead Scrolls *looks shifty*
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The IC mechanism of Soul Strand loss is due to the strain of death (i.e. one of the strands that tethers a soul to a body snaps as the soul attempts to leave the body on death), not the strain of returning to life. That's presented as an FYI. :)
The only comment on loss of play time I have is that it really hurts people who don't have a lot of time to play, don't have time or desire to invest time into backup characters, etc. Remember, people play to have fun, which is part of the basis for this discussion in the first place...it's not fun to lose one's character...it's not fun to not be able to play for a day, etc. :)
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The IC mechanism of Soul Strand loss is due to the strain of death (i.e. one of the strands that tethers a soul to a body snaps as the soul attempts to leave the body on death), not the strain of returning to life. That's presented as an FYI. :)
The only comment on loss of play time I have is that it really hurts people who don't have a lot of time to play, don't have time or desire to invest time into backup characters, etc. Remember, people play to have fun, which is part of the basis for this discussion in the first place...it's not fun to lose one's character...it's not fun to not be able to play for a day, etc. :)
OK I see your point on the loss due to death but it could also be explained that you open yourself up to a loss due to being pulled back from death, that somewhere in the twilight between life and death the Souls Mother lurks waiting for a weak moment to reach in a take her tax. But lets put that aside as well as the loss of play time (but that is what multi characters are for).
How about my first suggestion? That one does not change the way the Soul Mother works or the code for the script in any way. What it does is show that a PC's soul get stronger has she grows in power not weaker. I have always had an issue with PCs growing in power all the while having parts of their soul ripped away, it really makes little sense, it should be the other way around. I am sure there could be some obscure way to make it sound sensible, like the SM reaps the SS but that the essence of the person stays whole inside what strands are left. That could be a way to explain it away. But since we have this point where PCs get a boost of SS (21st level SMD) then we are already trying to have a system where as the PC grows her soul get stronger. I think it can still work in that way but even better with my method. It also does away with the hopelessness that players get when their PC hits 9 or 14 DTs. It does not make sense that a PC at the apex of her power suddenly stops adventuring (what this means most of the time is that they vanish from play). With my proposal they will keep playing maybe moving into less risky play styles, until feeling more "whole", and this means we will not lose them from the world and the richness that they bring.
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I still agree with Jrizz. Though Dorg, It ultimately comes down to how much leeway you're (as the team, Leanthar, etc) are willing to make lore wise, or how much you're willing to change something in general to make something better mechanic wise, or something that the players and later, consumers would like to compromise with you with in edging the end of NWN layonara. If the answer to that is none, then this argument is null from the get go
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I'm only currently commenting on thing that have significant barriers to their implementation. I did not say anything about your first idea for that reason. That should not be seen as an endorsement either.
As for how one might interpret death, well...people are free to interpret death as they see fit, but when we get right down to the IC mechanics of death, that's not how it works. I think it's a bit of a misconception personally that the Soul Mother collects Soul Strands...she doesn't. She collects souls. Strands are simply the thing that keeps one's soul tethered to one's body, and they can only take so much strain. Think of them as little rubber bands.
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I still agree with Jrizz. Though Dorg, It ultimately comes down to how much leeway you're (as the team, Leanthar, etc) are willing to make lore wise, or how much you're willing to change something in general to make something better mechanic wise, or something that the players and later, consumers would like to compromise with you with in edging the end of NWN layonara. If the answer to that is none, then this argument is null from the get go
The answer is not "none". If it were, I'd have not solicited comments. ;)
That said, there are certain lore factors that are (pardon the expression) pretty much carved in bindstone. In this case, what happens when a person dies has been defined in an IC sense, is part of world lore and should be clarified at least somewhat when we release the handbook update, which Ed is working furiously on doing.
There was a system we were going to put in place to help allay fears and concerns about a growing number of lost strands, but time and priorities have made that unlikely in NWN. I say this to let you know we're not blind to the concerns, and one way or the other, this will most likely make it into Layonara. I just don't know when.
Anyway, carry on! :)
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I'm only currently commenting on thing that have significant barriers to their implementation. I did not say anything about your first idea for that reason. That should not be seen as an endorsement either.
As for how one might interpret death, well...people are free to interpret death as they see fit, but when we get right down to the IC mechanics of death, that's not how it works. I think it's a bit of a misconception personally that the Soul Mother collects Soul Strands...she doesn't. She collects souls. Strands are simply the thing that keeps one's soul tethered to one's body, and they can only take so much strain. Think of them as little rubber bands.
So if you have a deity then the soul mother does not get you in the end. She may loosen it up but your deity takes you in the end. So she is really not getting a lot of souls anyway LOL
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Not quite. If a deity claims you, then your soul goes to that realm. If not...well...
At any rate, there are a whole lot of people in a polytheistic belief system who do not worship only one deity. Remember that the adventuring population is only like...1% of the entire world, at best. Also remember that there are other worlds in the universe, planar creatures, etc. Many, many, many things have souls.
If she only had the adventuring population to gain souls from, she'd probably have to get some kind of other job on the side. ;)
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Too funny :D
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Your first idea is pretty neat sounding jrizz. I'm thinking that it won't be a viable solution given the time constraints, but who knows. It lets people continue in looking forward instead of resigning to stagnation as a character.
And fair point Gulnyr, as to the solution for NWN.. I haven't really offerred much at all. So, ceasing in the foward complaints, which I think we've all gotten a few cents in on, I'd say the easiest solution for the time being, with the angst filled coupling of server timeline + 'I'm about to perm', is pretty simple. GM quests to fill the gap on what was initially proposed by Leanthar for V3. Soul Mother specific series. It's only one GM asset, and it can fill the gap in the coming months. No major scripts, no major lore changes. Run a quest(s), make success a requirement, make it a big deal, make folks step it up and brave the danger involved in helping to save their friends from the soul mother's grasp. It's exciting, it's a big deal, it serves to offer the dangerous chance of having us all around until Layo converts, and kills a few birds with one stone that isn't already in use by the 'Layonara Future' team.
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Though I like jrizz's ideas, with a few modifications, I thought of another that may be able to be used in conjunction with or even as standalone. Ever wonder what you could do with all those temple receipt? It is very spiritually uplifting to donate to your temple and support your deity. Once you have the receipts for a certain amount of donations, your spirit makes testimony for itself and grows stronger.
For the people that do not follow a deity can usually find some amount of joy in donating to other causes, maybe a deity that someone they like follows or a deity that they do not necessarily worship, but whose domains they favor.
Charities would also be a way to earn a certain amount of credit.
Am I saying that you can 'buy' back a SS? Not exactly. What I am saying is that there are events or circumstances that make the spirit heal or grow stronger in faith. This will also influence people that follow a deity t support their deity more.
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I like that twidget the only problem is it assumes every character has some sort of good nature and gets a 'warm fuzzy feeling' inside for doing something nice. What for those who do not? ;) Maybe for them bathing in the blood of virgins would repair their soul. Kidding!
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i once heard an ooc talk about what a druid should do when they get their 9th strand ripped,do they sit in the grove and prune flowers all day
no they do exactly what they have been since they lost their first strand
they follow their tenets and their oath and be seen as guardians of the oak
if they lose the last link to their soul,so be it
then they passed doing exactly as they did when they lived
serving the balance in their way
now if druids are the only ones who dont sit on their butts then perhaps its to say people are afraid to let their char they love so dearly evolve to his or her next stage
clerics know they are going to serve their god goddess,so why would they sit and hide
ok they like to be living,but again and this has been brought up before
are they living growing roots on the bench
???
we play adventurers
guess what
its not a bankers job
we fight
we bleed and yes sometimes we die
and sometimes we perm
but do we go out being who we are or do we turn into little ancient husks for pigeons and gulls to poop on
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I have a suggestion. Soul Strand loss is a percent chance based on your current level when you die. In theory once you have a 100 deaths you should be perm'd. I know people (including myself) have lost strands due to game mechanics. Since we do not adventure with GMs or WLs much, we are not able to get a reimbersment of strands. So I present this solution. If a character perms and has not had 100 deaths, then the character's god is able to return one strand. This would be a one time thing. I do believe that deaths are tracked in lore so it will be an easy thing to verify.
I was thinking that the character would appear in their gods temple. That will help RP the time lag it takes to get a strand returned.
Let me know what you think