The World of Layonara
The NWN Persistent World => Layonara Server => Topic started by: Leanthar on June 21, 2007, 09:01:28 PM
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Hi folks,
I am sad to inform all of you that I have banned this player permanently.
I have had to speak to him on multiple occasions about a myriad of issues both in-game and out of game. It just was not getting through to him and I give up. I don't give up on people very easily but in this case the team and I have spoken to him multiple times, we were never able to get through to him I am sad to report.
We just had another complaint and I told him last time that I spoke to him that if I had to speak to him again it would be a permanent ban, well I had to and I carried through with what I told him would happen. It was crystal clear to him what would happen if we had to speak yet again.
The team and I have spoken to this guy so much over the past year that I can't count it on two hands. I have just given up. This last report was not a major issue and indeed it was a sort of IC type thing. The thing is though that was always his excuse and it got old, real old--to the point that I no longer believe him. Take the fact that he would do silly (and wrong) things out of game that was very much like his "IC" fiascos that I just gave up.
This is nothing personal with him or with any of his friends, but I could not get through to him and I am not going to spend more time trying to explain the same thing over and over again. He is a good guy, but right now he does not fit on this server.
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Leanther,
I know that this had to be a difficult desicion for you and sad at the same time. So with that I wanted to encourage you to keep up the good work. Thank you for keeping us accountable. Thank you for not lowering the standard. You and the team are so appreciated!
Mooneyes
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Frankly I'm upset and a little disgusted. I know Nepp was a hard guy to make understand things that are a little easier for others to get. Nepp enjoyed playing his character, because it was something easy for him to play. He was a fun loving guy Threfore he played his role as a character well. Sadly I think this is yet another example of people getting the OOC person mixed with the IC character.
If 'the last straw' was a sort of IC infraction, then I am further saddened to see such drastic measures being taken for In character actions even if they were a sort of 'last straw on camel's back'. It concerns me and forces me to wonder; why Role play any uniqueness , conflict, evil, chaos etc if there's this added bonus of being banned along with the other headaches.
Everyone is bound to post their feelings on here. Just because most of them can be good feelings and agreements, doesn't mean people shouldn't know when there are those that have concerns about the measures taken.
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I've always found him fun as well... I hope its not because his character shows a rude demeanor, because well, mine did the same and for quite some time. If the complaining players are taking his in character actions in an ooc mannor then I don't think he is the problem. But I don't know the whole story and its not entirely clear in this post.
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I am also sad to see a good friend banned, his character could be crude sometimes, chaotic, but he brought an element of bad to the server, that the server needed more of. I never took anything he did IC as anything more than IC antics.
I wish I knew the full story about what brought this about but I know its also not my business, but I am a concerned friend.
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Well since I don't know all of the details I will defer to L. It sounds like he has put a lot of time and energy into this. It's always sad when anyone gets banned. I am sure this was not just because Hawklen was disruptive.
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Just a quick comment from someone who has no stake one way or the other. Feel free to voice an opinion or state how you would have done things different, but this is Leanthar's world. He makes the rules, the GM's adhere to them and the player are bound by them.
The rules are public and they are not onerous or unreasonable. If a player has been warned about a specific action, whatever it may be, the player needs to flex, not the GM team.
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I'm really of two minds on this subject.
On the one hand, from an administration point of view, Nepp was a handful and a burden, and too much of one to continue to be dealt with...
On the other, however, I had just started to grow to enjoy the majority of his antics, and have watched him both IC and OOC maturing over the time he's been here - much like I did, myself (and still am doing).
Unfortunately, it looks as if he didn't do it fast enough.
I'm sorry both to L and the team, and to Nepp and the player he's played with, for this unfortunate turn of events.
But hey. One does what one has to for the good of the community.
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Right on Laldiien.
I, personally, am sad to see this happen and indeed, was one of (probably) many who asked L to reconsider.
Yet, at the end of the day, as stated, I imagine even the most tolerant sand-box owner reaches the point of fed-up-edness. I think it was Darkstorme who posted the other day, 250 (or thereabouts?) active characters who were played last week. If L has to spend just 5 minutes dealing with fallout from IC or OOC actions for each and every one ... well, you do the math.
I, too, must confess to being a bit of a 'boundary pusher' with my some of my characters but when someone gets told something again and again and again and again ... well, you do the math.
See ya Nepp/Hawk, all the best.
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This kinda upsets me... I'll be the first to say I wasn't a Big Nepp/Hawklen Fan, but I always enjoyed having him around. He added some spice to the world. It was fun arguing with him IC, it was fun arguing with him OOC, and I dont mean on IRC. I talk to him on AIM too. I liked having the Demi-God always around, someone who (while utterly insane) Would be willing to help you gather Fire Opals all buy himself, then on the way out tell you "Give me all yer gold Or I'm leaving down here." Sure, I was like What the Heck!!! But hey! thats Hawklen.
Jeff, if you get the chance to read this, I'll miss having you around. There will be a big hole left in me, mainly from the Huge thorn in the side that you were ;)
I'll miss you man... No one is left to put shiff in his place ;)
All hail the Demi-God!
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He brought spice to the world, something different from the normal. Maybe he was over the top, but I've never seen chaos in such a true form as the character Hawklen.
Where will the fun be now?
My stance...I wish something could be done to bring him back, but the decision is made, and even if I don't agree with it, I'll sit here and bear it and do what I can.
I highly doubt it's debatable anyways.
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My character Cymeran and his character Neppaku hit it off from the start. Our friendship goes back to Nepp's creation. We explored and learned about this game world together in many ways.
OOCly, Hawk always wanted to push the boundaries of the server rules. He would then back up violating the server rules by saying that his character was chaotic. A good example would be entering a home with out the owners permission to use the portal. He would send me a tell "Well, my character is chaotic." I think that is the bottom line here. He was always trying to see how deviant he could be, with no regard for the consequences of his actions.
AeonBlues
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@AeonBlues
IIRC, Hawklen never ran into someone's home "without their permission." I would normally never argue in a thread like this, but I don't want to see lies being spread about him. Personally, I want to see his ban be as graceful as possible since that's the best way out in a situation like this. For closing, he only ever used portals that were open for use, and if he did "get inside a house," it takes two to tango, so obviously someone opened the door.
I'm going to bow out of here. Sorry to the mods for this, but I won't sit back for what I feel isn't true.
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AeonBlues, I don't think that blatant accusitory attitude is what this thread was for.
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I've been here long enough to see this happen before, with other players I've enjoyed RP with. It won't be the last time, either. Everytime it happens, it irks me.
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I was not writing about an experience with Hawklen, I was writing about an experience with Neppaku. Mind you that was just one of many examples. I am reading and can see a lot of players reactions on the line of "He was making harmless antics." I stand firm on my point that he was pushing the boundries of the server rules with no remorse.
AeonBlues
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Leanthar, Unless you want more accusatory posts, I suggest that you lock the ban postings as soon as you announce it. I don't enjoy seeing the "Why did you do that" , the "No Wai! I demand you Reconsider!" or the "Yeah You're Right You're All So Wonderful"
Its only natural that people will want to talk about it, but if they want to do so they can make their own threads, do it amongst themselves, or bring concerns to you privately where it will cause less mass hysteria
All of its not really needed in these situations.
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Alright people, let's not do this.
It should be obvious to people that it is the player who was banned, not the character. Because you may or may not have seen a particular action does not mean it did not happen. There are many reasons and many incidents over a long period of time.
So let's let the accusations in either direction end here and now.
Leanthar, Unless you want more accusatory posts, I suggest that you lock the ban postings as soon as you announce it. I don't enjoy seeing the "Why did you do that" , the "No Wai! I demand you Reconsider!" or the "Yeah You're Right You're All So Wonderful"
Its only natural that people will want to talk about it, but if they want to do so they can make their own threads, do it amongst themselves, or bring concerns to you privately where it will cause less mass hysteria
All of its not really needed in these situations.
If I may...because we still trust our community to use their best discretion in such cases. So please use it. I personally don't like locking threads to avoid conflict, but we do when it starts harming the community.
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I was not writing about an experience with Hawklen, I was writing about an experience with Neppaku. Mind you that was just one of many examples. I am reading and can see a lot of players reactions on the line of "He was making harmless antics." I stand firm on my point that he was pushing the boundries of the server rules with no remorse.
AeonBlues
I normally stay clear of threads like this. But its not right bash someone who can't even tell his side of the story. :\\
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It is always sad to see characters leave the world for any reason. Nepp created some interesting and memorable characters. Lets remember the great online moments interacting with this character and focus the positive. Consider this eulogy to that which was Nepp/Hawklen.
Hawklen was one of the few characters that was always sitting around town and the first to greet many new players and characters.
Eulogy: A laudatory speech or written tribute, especially one praising someone who has died.
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Well Dorg, It's Idealology Versus the Reality of the situation(s) really. So , Agree to disagree on this particular thing. I'm going to give this thread a wide berth now. I don't agree with a lot of what's happened, but nothing I say will change it. This post is to simply aknowledge that I understand where you're coming from and respect it.
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Heh, He'd probably consider it a fitting eulogy to see this thread descend into chaos and accusations! (said with respect to all involved!). Then he'd come in on the end with some nonsensical post involving plankton and Walmart that'd leave everybody scratching their heads in confusion.
No judgments any which way from me, I can see the PoV from both a fellow player's perpective and an administrators. He will be missed, if not for some reasons, then many others! Take care Hawk.
:)
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I haven't played much with Nepp or therefore Hawk and I have only heard of a few incidents, but the select times we did meet up IC were... different.
Different is not by any means with a negative subtone here. I never caught him doing anything that wouldn't fit his character, so I can't judge him for good or bad on that part.
I'll agree that he brought some excitement into the world, yet still I doubt he was banned for no good reason. So on that note, I wish nepp all the best of luck in whatever he will do further on. If anyone who is in contact with him over msn or whatnot, wish him all the best from me...
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I am really sad to read this. I have known Nepp for about two years now. He is one of the friends I have made in my time here. Hawk has most certainly added to the color of the world and he will be missed. I hate to see Nepp go, as I said it saddens me greatly.
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Well....I'll add a bit
I'm sad to see him go....I'd of course love to know what happened to justify this....but as Pseudonym would say.....this aint my sand-box and these aint my toys.
IC we kinda hated each other... OOC we were both having a laugh at what we did IC. He certainly made things interesting.
Take care ya crazy bugger :)
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I would normally keep quiet like a stick for these sort of things, but I believe I have to reply to the concerns raised on LynnJuniper's first post.
Know first and foremost that IC actions alone will never get you banned, the exception being if the said IC actions are in fact a directly against the server rules (primary thinking about the "adult content" rules).
IC actions can be clouded by OOC actions, though. Grieving is something that quickly springs to one's mind. Two exaggerated examples would be playing a character that wishes to see others dead, by taunting monsters present and pulling them to others, or doing something (blocking the path, force emoting, etc) even though the other person has clearly stated OOC-ly that he or she wishes not do. Who can say that those actions are not IC? They are! But then, they have also stepped into the area of OOC-ness. I think you understand what I mean!
You can be as annoying you want, as kind as you wish, as untrustworthy as you feel for, as evil as you find amusing, as... pretty much whatever you can think of, as long as it's kept in-game. None of these will likely put you in danger of getting banned, or if they very unlikely do due to getting too far (say, making a lot of others find no joy in the game due to these actions), then you will at least be talked to. Not just once, but multiple times.
There is... another way to get punished for IC actions and that's if metagaming is involved. Yes, metagaming. You didn't read that wrong. It is indeed metagaming. I know, you are most probably objecting, having your fingers typing the objecting-post already. Stop doing that! With metagaming, I don't mean the normal sort of metagaming which is wrong by itself but would very unlikely pull such a harsh punishment on you in the foreseeable future.
What I mean instead is the sort of OOC knowledge you use to escape consequences for your IC actions. It might be IC for your character to draw ugly faces of Boergar in the middle of Prantz, or for you character to cast spells to "show off" in that city also. But if those actions are done without a DM presence, then they are no longer considered completely IC. IC-ly your character would face consequences but due to the limited capabilities of the AI, he or she is not. In-character is not only about what your own character does, but the surrounding circumstances are also included.
Do it without anyone watching and unable to react and it is wrong.
Send a message on the DM channel and receive the attention of a DM and it is suddenly fine.
The "last straw on camel's back" was of the type I wrote about last. The permanent banning enforced on him was not something done out of a whim, but rather due to the same issue coming up multiple times and equally many times talks have been done.
Banning isn't a small thing on Layonara. It is sad when it happens and I'm rather glad that it's not like many other servers where people are punished (de-leveled, killed, banned, kicked, etc) for simply disagreeing with the server administrators or even worse, because the DMs want to have some "fun".
Banning on Layonara is a very huge deal. Leanthar do not give people just a single extra chance, but quite a lot of them. For that great patience alone, I take my hat off to him.
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Very sorry Weeblie, and the team, but, though I've read your posts my beliefs are still, well, what I believe. I'd like to think I know most of the situations, I know what has been said, on both sides, on most if not all of the occasions talked about. I very purely do not agree with the decision made by the team, and I stand firm by that, and uphold my right to disagree with it, and hope , (but don't necessarily expect) you (plural) to think any less of me for it.
And I still see these whole posts , even though what Dorg says, as somewhat useless. You're going to get three things and very rarely will any of it add or detract to the situation at all. One, people are going to ask why, as to which the team won't be able to disclose because its private (And I think that's right on, and correct and good procedure). Two you're going to get the "Yes I agree good job thank you team" Posts that are starting to (forgive me) Seem generic for these things. They may boost morale but they don't even seem real anymore. Three , you're going to get the pleads to change, which, won't do anything because the team is firm on its standing (Again, generally good procedure weather or not I agree with the standing taken at this particular time)
I originally had a large argument that responded to every paragraph of Weeblie's post. I trashed it. I have no desire to respond anymore. I've told you my feelings, and that's how I feel. I've read and acknowledged your (plural) side(s) of the argument, and my original post is still how I feel.
As a final response, I suggest everyone read this post. It's something I've seen too much on my character, and on others, and I think something that can prevent a lot of the problems going on. Don't assume people, that because a character is a certain way, their players are even if they do seem similar. Its generally disrespectful to the player to judge someone like that. :
http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/120092-ic-ooc.html
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Not going to lie here, I had my thoughts that Hawk was "in danger" of banning since I saw a post on the forums by Leanthar politely saying that maybe he should find some other place to play. Since then I've been watching him but I haven't seen, emphasis on the word seen him using his alignament to OOCly answer for IC behaviour. Can't say I agree, but I don't know the whole story. Banning because of mixing OOC and IC is, to me, unjustified.
People should know better when to complain and refrain from causing this mess.
My character had a great time with him and believe it or not, I learned much with the player behind Hawk... too bad to see him go.
We'll miss ya, Hawk. You know who we are.
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Dangit man, I told ya a long time ago to be you, but don't get banned doing it..*grins* well at least you were true to yourself. I wish you the best.
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Gonna mis you mate :(
See you somewhere later hopefully , always enjoyed the rp .
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the wolfpack is now down to one
drogo ran with nepp and cym and ari and thomas and grem and one by one they were taken or faded away by one thing or another
when nepp permed jeff had hawk to fall back too
nepp was given proper burial as only one could if they called the drow friend
drogo knows as he buried him in krandor near the lake
hawk had his ups and downs but again that was jeff at his best
he and hawk will be missed by many and not by others
but either way ic you can have his passing be not in a fight and just keep your memories
they may be good they may be bad
jeff you will find a spot suited to you old friend
nepp's grave is still visited by a druid from time to time
im sure hawks mate can have a ceremony for her closure as well
L has the tolerance of a saint
i know i have had my trips to the principles office too
but i was able to take time and see what L was saying and i think i took it the way he intended
jeff may have pushed the envelope but bad person it has never been implied
perhaps in the future paths will cross once again and all the pack can be on the hunt again
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Tyrian still has to deal with Nepp and Ash Willo's three half elf half drow children.....
The reaction from Nepp when he found out he was having triplettes was priceless as well as Drogo calling that a good sized hunt pack!
One of the funniest moments I can remember all around.
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I had fun with him, one of the few people I met willing to travel with a care of my level no questions asked to adventure. I had fun with him, never saw really a odd or majorly conflictive side of him, but on the forums.
In that I saw the same old thing you see on alot of servers, well liked player bashing heads with the admins, doing things that annoy others but with in game rules, and asked to avoid doing them for the peace of all. over time these build up and somethings got to give.
Will miss him, he was one of the more active players from what I remebered, and had lots of freinds around him. Made him someone you wanted to be around because something fun might happen.
I know he was a younger lad in the teens I believe the rebel youth if you will.
I know some of the older folks might not care for line pushers, and the admins do get tired of pushing with it.
I can say I know this was a call DM's were unhappy to make, no team ever likes making a call on a well liked player, even though others may not like him.
So they tend to try to be very fair in the calls they make so it does not come back to bite them. Well harder then it will because friends speak up, It seems it was just one to chaotic action to many in a time of great change, and pressure on the team.
I enjoyed playing with him, was fun and always gave me the time of day to chat, More I will say then others not to say he was better then anyone but that when I was wandering bored friendsless he was there to invite to a party and give me something to do.
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Er, Hawklen wasn't a teenager...
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Yeah hah, not by a long shot (Well, a long shot from a teenager, even 5 years seems like a long time to us) . But I was shocked to find out too. I think its a good quality though, to remain that young at heart.
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he was 64 :P
*sings* Will you still need me ,will you still feed me. When im 64.
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Hahahaha.
No, Force.
Just no. :)
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He brought spice to the world, something different from the normal. Maybe he was over the top, but I've never seen chaos in such a true form as the character Hawklen.
Where will the fun be now?
My stance...I wish something could be done to bring him back, but the decision is made, and even if I don't agree with it, I'll sit here and bear it and do what I can.
I highly doubt it's debatable anyways.
Now all you need is Tia Dalma, a ship, a crew and Captain Barbossa!
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ah what a quest that would be. I would undertake it for sure :)
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Nepp is and will remain the best player Layonara had to offer.
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Man, is that so? I like Hawk a lot but ... maybe you shoulda talked to more people in game when you were around, i'm constantly being entertained by great RP and hope to continue to be so for some time.
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Can we try not to open cans of old worms please and thanks?
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Can we try not to open cans of old worms please and thanks?
Perhaps if you feel this way you shouldn't press 'thanks' on someone who obviously is opening up the aforementioned can of worms 2 months after the last post. I see what you're saying, but if you consider 8's response fair, then the one after is more then fair.
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I thanked it too. Call me a sucker, but you can still love Brett Hart after he left the WWE and still watch your Monday Night raw and Smackdown and enjoy it too.
I love Layo, I love Hawk.
It's a shame the two can't get along, but I'm not going to hold that against the either of them. I love both still the same. Best wishes to both.
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Man, is that so? I like Hawk a lot but ... maybe you shoulda talked to more people in game when you were around, i'm constantly being entertained by great RP and hope to continue to be so for some time.
I've seen waves after waves of people come and go from here, man. I never said roleplayer. There is no best roleplayer. I said player.
But Rhynn is right. This is ancient history (at least in terms of the Internet) and we're better off leaving it alone. I wasn't even aware of how long ago this happened.
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For future reference, the date of the previous post is stamped in the top left corner.
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For future reference, the date of the previous post is stamped in the top left corner.
I'm not entirely sure if that's an insult or not.
Thank you, sirrah, sirrah!