The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Skywatcher on August 06, 2007, 05:46:16 PM
-
The description for protection from spells says it gives +8 on all saves vs spells but I have noticed in some cases this is not so. The two cases that I noticed recently were storm of vengance and wail. In both cases I only got the base save as the bonus to the roll while in the same time period saving against a greater thunder clap the +8 modifier was included. Should I report this as a bug or is there something going on that I don't understand?
-
There is a +20 max to all saves that might be what you are getting into here. That means, you can't get over +20 from your base saves so you might cap your saves which is why you see no change with the protection from spells on.
-
That is good to know but I don't think that's what's going on here. Here are two lines from my log:
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Aug 05 23:12:43] Clarissa : Reflex Save vs. Sonic : *success* : (13 + 31 = 44 vs. DC: 29)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Aug 05 23:12:47] Clarissa : Reflex Save vs. Electricity : *success* : (2 + 25 = 27 vs. DC: 26)
The first save was against a thunderclap by a party member. With 16 levels of Paladin and 5 of Champion I think my unmodified base is +9 which is weird if +20 is the max since the save shows +31. The second line is from the storm of vengance cast by a troll shaman. The other wierd thing here is that the difference is 6 points. If I miscalculated my base and it is really +11 then the 31 makes sense if my buffed save was +25 at the time. But none of that solves the problem of why the protection from spells works on some spells and not others. I hope these details help someone explain the behavior. Thanks
-
Ehmm.. It is not like you can't get your save over 20, it is because you can't get more than +20 to unbuffed modifier.
-
Right. I understand what you are saying. The +31 on the first reflex save is probably base +20 maxed. But why is the second save only +25 if 4 seconds earlier it was +31. The difference is whether or not the Protection from Spells is being applied. In one case it is and in the other it is not and they are both saves against spells.
-
This is not meant to sound stupid or undermine you, but were your wards in that seconds fading?
-
Some spells' effects are considered non-magical.
Storm of Vengeance, combust.. the secondary effect of Meteor swarms. And since it's basically a natural effect from that point, like your pants being on fire you won't get sc bonus.. or protection from spells won't work.
-
Well in answer to Lynn's question: no the wards weren't wearing off. I was there with them and was actually the caster of the PFS. We rested often enough that none of the wards ran out beforehand. Just my two cents.
-
Alright then, fresh outta ideas Sorry
-
What Filatus says is right on. It is the correct answer.
-
That makes sense then. Is there a list of all of the spells that PFS doesn't count on? I would hate to assume I could make a save vs a particular DC and then find out I failed because the PFS didn't count. Maybe this could be added to the spell description of PFS to clearly define what it protects against and what it doesn't. Thanks everyone. I knew there was something I was missing.
-
There isn't a definitive list, no. I could ask for PM's of known spells like this to make a list. I could then update LORE. I wouldn't update PFS, as it's description is accurate: it protects against spell-effects only, not natural or supernatural effects. I might, however, place an addition to the spell description of, say, Combust, explaining that after a certain point the magic has finished its work and natural effects have taken over.
-
I would suggest a general statement in the PFS description. As it is it says, "receives a +8 bonus on all saving throws against spells." Adding a comment that the bonus does not apply to "effects" from spells that are natural in origin like fire or an earthquake... would make it clear that it is not a universal save bonus against anything a caster can throw at you.
-
To make the issue easier, do Protection from Spells and Spell Resistance have the same "exceptions"? That is, if I am looking to see whether a particular spell is affected by PFS, can I just see whether SR applies (and there is an applicable save, obviously)?
-
That was a good thought but I checked Storm of Vengance and it says it sees spell resistance and in fact sometimes SR stopped the effect but PFS doesn't apply to it.
-
Oh come on where's the fun in that, if you have lists for everything. A little excitement is good and spices your boring adventurer lives up at least a small bit.
-
LoL.. Easy for an Epic Dwarf to say with an fort save near around 30 since I do belive that what people fear most are deathspells that only a foritude save can save from. Its different to not make a Reflex save in a storm or having a perhaps 20-50% chanse of making an fortitude save and die if failing..
I do belive it will add some extra dimension to the world/game if people in general knew more about the different saves.
-For example people would stay out of places that they don't realy have any buisiness in.
- many craftable rings/amulets and items that gives +1 upp till + 3 on different saves would be much more atractive on the market. As it is now the only jewelery people wear are +1-3 ability scores.
-
Some spells' effects are considered non-magical.
Storm of Vengeance, combust.. the secondary effect of Meteor swarms. And since it's basically a natural effect from that point, like your pants being on fire you won't get sc bonus.. or protection from spells won't work.
Which is why Bjornigar is so bloody flammable! I wish water elementals could be tamed to constantly hug Bjorn every time he goes east, heh.
-
I do belive it will add some extra dimension to the world/game if people in general knew more about the different saves.
-For example people would stay out of places that they don't realy have any buisiness in.
- many craftable rings/amulets and items that gives +1 upp till + 3 on different saves would be much more atractive on the market. As it is now the only jewelery people wear are +1-3 ability scores.
The question is not whether you as player should know this, but rather would your character actually know this and be able to make decisions regarding this?
Would a your character know the DC save for a wail for example and therefore know to avoid certain things or not? Or would your charater chance it and find out he is not affected and therefore continue to chance it.
Just my own personal opinion but knowing what creatures use what spells, and how they affect you and what the DC to save against them, is very much metagaming.
Granted that if you are a wizard with years of study you would know what a certain spell is and what the effects are. And you might have a good chance to guess if you can survive or not.
I am with Soul on this, it is way more fun not knowing what to expect and always be prepared for the unexpected than to analyse every piece of the game and make it a totally known factor.
-
The question is not whether you as player should know this, but rather would your character actually know this and be able to make decisions regarding this?
Would a your character know the DC save for a wail for example and therefore know to avoid certain things or not? Or would your charater chance it and find out he is not affected and therefore continue to chance it.
Just my own personal opinion but knowing what creatures use what spells, and how they affect you and what the DC to save against them, is very much metagaming.
Granted that if you are a wizard with years of study you would know what a certain spell is and what the effects are. And you might have a good chance to guess if you can survive or not.
I am with Soul on this, it is way more fun not knowing what to expect and always be prepared for the unexpected than to analyse every piece of the game and make it a totally known factor.
I can totaly understand and in some ways I agree in what you two are saying.
On the other hand if you as a person know this and always are unprepared for the expected isn't perhaps so fun if you got 9 DT.
To point fingers and telling a 9 DT character that he/she is metagaming for knowing thees things and say.. charge!! or be a bad RP and metagamer is a little harsh. ;)
Its two simple ways of avoiding that ofcourse and one thing is that just travel into complete safe areas.. Or sitting on a bench, but how fun is that?
The other is to have a "powergameparty" First of all a Cleric, 2 spellsingers, 2 fighters and perhaps a bard. Then you can just run into pretty much everything and fear nothing and just hack and slash for nice XP.
I know many that wan't set their foot on east if don't having a cleric in the party O.o
Going to dangerous places whithout for example a cleric is more dangerous, takes more planning, a good tactic and are a fun challange. Knowing different saves and having them in mind helps alot when doing so and you can so much RP it. :p
*The rogue slips in his Boots that will make him act faster and react quicker. His reflexes are now so fast that he can dodge the fire from flamethrowing giants*
-Rogoue: Bjornigar! Can you please stay behind me and don't attack the giant untill he has throwed his fire at me.. I don't wan't to see you burn like a torch eh.. *grins* :D
I don't see this as metagaming and I would be surprised if someone reacted negative to it and says... // hey! thats metagaming!
This was just an example of one save but you could do similar for everyone ofcourse.. The fighter that have an easy effected mind and always drools..
- Hey mr ringmaker.. Say can you make a ring that makes my mind stronger so I don't just stand and drools when fighting those narsty snakes eh? it seems like They always get into my head and makes me confused..
- Sure I can infuse such a ring with that sort of magic for you sir fighter..
As I said I do see why and have no problem that many, perhaps most people don't wan't to know these facts and are taking their chanses, and thinks that it adds more excitment and fun to the game.
But I also do think it would be a bit unfair to say its wrong to letting your character knowing these things and use the knowledge.
My opinion though and sofar i seem to be the only one hehe :D
-
I just like to know all the rules. Not so much to determine what I can and cannot do but when I see something that is odd like this case it tells me that I am missing something in my understanding or else there is a bug of some sort. I just like to know if the deficiency is with my knowledge of the rules or if there is something that is wrong with the game. There is always a balance between metagaming and just knowing the rules. You can't even play the game without knowing some rules. If you completely try to do everything ramdomly and ignore knowing the rules you could get a cleric with a 10 Wis and no spells. That would not result in a very good RP character. The other extreme is the pure power build and powergame with no RP or character development which can be boring and repetative although I understand it's fun for some. I try to strike a balance between the two and allow my knowledge of the rules inform a well developed character that is both well built and well played, at least I hope well played. I didn't mean for this thread to get anyone upset. I just wanted to understand something I saw that was inconsistent with what I knew of the rules. Thanks for everyone's inputs.
-
I would suggest you to use the toolset and open up the scripts of the spells and peek in there to determine whether Protection from Spells is appliable or not. Very few spells have been changed from the base spells after all!
I don't think anyone has a list of those unaffected spells... actually, I'm not completely sure what to look after without peeking more closely in those scripts myself. :p
-
Heh. I am not that interested or capable. I so appreciate the people that have so much more in depth knowledge than I do. You guys that have put Layo together are amazing. Keep up the good work and thanks again for being able to answer my every question in levels of detail far beyond my expectations.
-
You know this has come up on the world I used to play on a lot... And someone had what I thought was a good point. I'm just paraphrasing because I can't remember the original explanation and it was probably done better before but it went something like this:
--
There seems to be a tendency in role playing to make our characters dumber than they need to be. It's kind of a strange concept but there should be a lot of things your character knows that you don't. They aren't blank slates, they're products of the world they live in, and in this world magic is a powerful and very real weapon. It may not be well understood by the commoners, but then adventurers aren't commoners.
I would think that in a world where magic is very real, and is very much used by the enemies (whoever the enemies may be), then the study of how it works would be pretty thorough. While I would never say characters ever use the D&D game mechanics terms, I would think they would have a means of figuring out what spells do what. Certain wizards or just scholars with a mathematical capacity might even try to express it in statistics, that is however statistics are expressed in that world. That's certainly valuable information to anyone who relies on spells to survive, or who expects to go up against a spellcaster isn't it?
(I would also think there would be those who understand how magic works who don't use it themselves, just like there are a lot of modern experts on guns who have never fired one. Even a warrior should understand some basics of spellcraft if they're expected to fight spellcasters. They may not know what spell is being cast when the caster is chanting and making motions, but they will learn to recognize the effects when they see the aftermath)
Of course there is going to be the unknown and there are going to be surprises, and lots of them, but at the same time when these characters walk into life-and-death situations trusting certain spells I would think they would have done extensive research beforehand on exactly what the spell is capable of. Just like when a modern day soldier goes to battle, he might not know what strategies and weapons or other tricks the enemy has waiting for him, but he's done all the research possible on what it might be.. And you can be sure he knows everything there is to know about the weapon HE'S carrying, and the defensive equipment he has at his disposal...
--
Anyway take it with a grain of salt, but I'm not sure, say, knowing the DC save for Wail is metagaming because an adventurer who has a fundamental understanding of magic-- either as a caster, or as someone who's expected to fight casters-- would understand and even have a way of expressing their chance of success or failure. Obviously a wizard's understanding would be ever greater but even a magic-fearing barbarian would have some understanding of the tricks of the trade.
(Also note after all this that of course there are exceptions depending on backgrounds and all that, and what I'm talking about applies to relatively experienced adventurers, not first level fighters who just arrived in town)
-
Well Quoted Baneberry.
Another thing that camed into my mind is that how about all the nice "unik" drops that gives + to different or universal saves or gives spells, bonus feats, AB, AC and so on.. Then many should not know how to use them or what they are good for and like toss them away or atleast not using them. I don't think thats whats intended with the drops.
If I find a nice special item/drop i personaly get happy.. and my charcter gets happy too since i like to think that he knows what he have found.. Ofcourse a for example a fighter that finds a pair of greater gloves of spellcraft looks at them and either tosses them away or shout to the others that he found a funny looking pair of gloves and wonders if anybody else are intrested in them..
Anyway and to Skywatcher i am so far from upset that i can be and I'm certain that Aragwen, S0ulz and the other in this thread also arent any upset at all. Just different points of wievs and different ways to look at things.. its not always black or white. This is what the forums are here for.. give help and discuss different things.
I personaly like to see how things works and why it works like it does. I think most that have played NWN for some time do the same. you can't be a good DM if you don't understand how the game works..
Others don't care and are just here for the love for the game and couldn't care less eh.. :)