The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: merlin34baseball on August 20, 2007, 09:47:38 PM
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Ok...
I am going to do this as gently as I can...
I have a serious problem with this new resting thing. It has basically taken alot of the power away from my character.
I now get to play a level 4 rogue, and not a 19th level rogue/mage. Why, cause I can't rest often enough to protect her. And... I'm sorry that I don't have time to sit and chat around the campfire all day long. Some people don't play this game (GAME) to RP constantly, trust me I understand the RP aspect, my other character just spent the last several days RPing...
An OOC event has reduced her to, well, basically nothing. The character was supposed to be a character that could protect herself and rain down evocations for a short time on the enemy.
Oh some would say well you should have taken extend spell to make sure you can cover the increase in rest time, and I was supposed to know that how?
Now I have a level 19 character, with 9 DTs who basically can fight one or two battles then......... I guess run away for the next ten minutes. Lovely. So now do I not only have to get so many MILLION XP to get to 21st, but I have to do it with half the spells.
I can't see how this is helps anyone. People build their characters to fit the world... I have no power build, sheesh she a 4th level rogue, and 15 wizard... If I would have been power building I certainly never would have taken a single rogue level, had I know that I had to rest the same amount of time (19 minutes for this split or a straight wiz) to get my spells back, heck I'd be casting a bunch of 9th level spells instead of one 8th.
I have never ranted here... but this totally OOC change to every spellcaster strikes me as wrong.
I would like some constructive critisizm of my post... no flames, please tell me why I am wrong, give me examples of justifications, not beat me up, and maybe I can see the logic, but to me, when a character that I have been playing for a year and a half suddenly has half the spell capacity from some sort of OOC event...
It bothers me.
My Thanks,
Merlin34
And, please, help me see the light on this, its just not me that feels this way, this has nerfed every multiclassed character that is not a pure spellcaster...
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You're not wrong: I'm going to be as blunt as possible, and I don't care who disagrees with me.
There once were a few reasons this change was needed
Those reasons, in one way or another, have moved on
This is no longer needed.
Earlier Dorg Said: "Its only been around for a day, give it some time"
The only suggestion I can make is, see how it goes for a little while and bump this again later, say, a few weeks.
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I have lots of thoughts about this mate (without the time right here and now to put them all down) but two quickies,
(1) to me, an extra 9 minutes before one can rest does not equate to sitting around a campfire all day - indeed, it actually helps me with the immersion, I have often felt like screaming at the screen - "He cannot be tired, we only rested 10.01 minutes ago!"
(2) Players of spellcasters are going to scream unfair, players of non-casters are going to say 'about time'. I'll be interested to see what the responses to this thread will be (and the characters that those people play in game). Also, at high levels I would have thought the non-spellcasters were dependent on the spellcasters for buffs so would be equally affected by this change anyway?
No flaming/criticism from me (maybe more thoughts later when I have time), everyone will have an opinion I'm sure, better it starts with someone who is open to hearing reasons than not.
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I wont lie and say it doesnt hurt spellcasters the most... Sure its a interesting way of going about it... but what class needs to rest more then a spellcaster?
We have limited amounts of spells sure it does put a lot in the way of dropping down our alround usefulness, but hey we already had wild magic zones and what not to do that already for us.
It slows down some quests to aswell i found, during pseudonyms quest last night, i had to wait a good bit of time before i could swap out my spells to get my dispelling spells to hit a summoning circle for rp reasons..
Thats my critism if its not well founded i accept that but thats just my thoughts on the matter...
Its a big kick for spellcasters especially those who are powerful.
I can live with it... it just feels like another way of pushing spellcasters out of the picture when it comes to those memorable quests.
*edit* Not everyone plays the perfect spellcaster, my character cannot summon creatures because she is evocation focused so she really has to rely on her spells not her summons so dont bring those up.... It is this way for rp reasons.
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*big thumbs up*
I think the new rest system promotes better RP.
I also just want to say, that some of the reasons behind this are the actions of a few. Like mages that blast all their spells to maximize XP from kills, and then demand rests. For the most part, we are all guilty of resting too often. Most players have fallen into the Rest, Buff, go kill more stuff. Which I think is a bad RP pattern. The only time we slow down is when someone is afk or crashes. So, this is why I like the new system. I think it promotes better RP, and makes Layo more consistent with PNP.
That being said, one of the draw backs is that this system is going to be harder on multi class characters. Many multi class characters are RP builds by the way. It is my experience, that it is characters built for RP that suffer most greatly when things are balanced to challenge the more powerful characters.
AeonBlues
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I appreciate the good natured responses so far, please keep them coming.
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FLAME!!!
Seriously, I donno how bady the rest system really affects people... Unless yer a Wiz thats trying to Solo places, I have yet to see the problem....
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Has nothing to do with soloing, it has to do with how long my protection spells work and how long I have until I can rest.
Which is keeping her alive... or did.
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I'm just gonna give an honest opinion. Being a high level caster myself I can understand how it hurts the casters. It doesn't bother me to much because I'm a pure caster build and therfore my spells last as long as it takes me time to rest. However, I'm going to agree with Aeon in that it hurts the multi-classes a lot. I think it is nessecary to a point because I know I've been guilty as we all have of resting to often at times. I also think there can be a compromise. The 1 min. per lvl for anyone over 10th lvl is a bit harsh to said multi-classes. I would suggest something like capping the rest timer at 15 or something like that. It would still limit resting and support more RP but it would not kill the fun for so many. At least for a little while to see how it works.
Now I'd like to reply to Psuedo, who I hold in the highest respect... nothing against him just something to add on what he said about non caster classes needing the casters wards.
Yes that would have been true before the update but now there is a big freaking no magic zone with super nice items and good XP and fun monsters to fight where fighters and similar classes couldn't care less about having a mage with them, and I don't blame them. A mage has no reason to be there unless it's a good RP reason cause otherwise their just an XP leech. It makes mages useless and I think it's going to turn fighters into just what is trying to be undone to mages. They're gonna not need mages and be able go places all by themselves. It's probably to late for this but my suggestion here would to turn the no magic zone to an intermitent wild magic zone where like every other area would be wild magic or something like that... I dunno. At least that way the wards as Psuedo said would still be useful but casters would be severely limited as far as fighting power. I guess the point is casters will be left in the dark at least till people get bored of the no magic area in the current situation.
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I have lots of thoughts about this mate (without the time right here and now to put them all down) but two quickies,
(2) Players of spellcasters are going to scream unfair, players of non-casters are going to say 'about time'. I'll be interested to see what the responses to this thread will be (and the characters that those people play in game). Also, at high levels I would have thought the non-spellcasters were dependent on the spellcasters for buffs so would be equally affected by this change anyway?
Really? If it were me I'd be using all of my "extend slots" on personal buffs and leaving the rest to the rest. If you ask me, that kinda hurts non casters.
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I agree with what Halfwit is saying about the GIANORMOUS no magic zone. It makes mages and some clerics almost worthless. That area gets a *big thumbs down* It is nice looking though :D
AeonBlues
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My own injection into this discussion.
This rest timer change was implemented as a balance measure. This is not meant to punish anyone, but rather break the rather monotonous grind of buff-bash-rest-repeat. It changes the dynamic of spellcasters who perhaps can no longer expend all their explosive might in a short burst, rest, and do the same thing over and over again. Likewise, it introduces a new dynamic for those who depend on casters for buffs and protections, for those things may wear out before the rest timer has expired.
Once more for emphasis, it's not meant to punish anyone. If anything, it should encourage more thoughtful tactics and less of the usual grind...and maybe some additional RP.
Myself, I have a multi-classed caster, whose spells already have a hard time reaching the rest timer as it is. As such, even before this change went in, I learned how not to deplete myself of all spells except in the most dire of circumstances. So it can be done.
Anyone who has played D&D in a PnP setting might remember how the length of time a caster had to rest/study/pray was dependent upon how many spells and of what level they were. The metric our group used was 15 minutes per spell level. So 4 1st level spells or 1 4th level spell could be regained in an hour. So what would happen is the whole group would make camp and hang out while the casters got their mojo back. And yeah, game time would move forward while we did, so it was a choice to be made. Also, combat buffs usually lasted for what? One battle? No roaming the countryside with 20 buffs at the ready...which brings me to another point.
The first time you go somewhere, you get prepared as much as you can and get ready for trouble early. After going a couple of times, you learn that you don't really need your buffs right away, and in fact you can go with only a few (or none) until certain spots. Things like this can elongate the usefulness of casters even if the durations don't overlap with the rest timers.
At any rate, these comments above are meant for discussion...so please, discuss. :)
To repeat a comment of mine that has been given above, this has been on-line for about 24 hours now. Take some time and adjust to it...give it a few days, perhaps a week. We're not opposed to adjusting things, but really...one day of experiencing the system is not enough.
And remember...this isn't to punish anyone or marginalize anyone, but rather to help with the overall balance.
Carry on! :)
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I normally do not reply to most posts, but being a high level spell caster myself I was surprised and irritated at first with the new rest system. Not sure why it was implented, but now thinking about it I find it may work well. I had to learn as I was RPing and bringing up my character how to reserve spells and not just go out and toss everything out in the first and second battle, but pace yourself. I appreciate those players, who showed me by example, it taught me alot.
Try to use everyone's talent, and for the spellcaster find a way to help your party in the no magic/wild zones then just standing there like a bump on a log doing nothing. To often I've seen the buff, attack and rest.. repeat. In the end this will get people to stop and work as a team and not take spells for granted.
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I had a big response and I think it's more useful to just paste on paragraph of the 231 pages and despite how many points are proven... they get lost in me being wordy.
:o
This is my opinion as a player.
I've had 5 fantastic campfires with groups in the past 24 hours. This is totally changing the dynamic of adventure roleplay and, to me, this is the key point in all of this. People have gotten used to a sprinting tempo. This is changing it, and sometimes the only way to change a server-wide mentality is to rattle the the cage so everyone inside wakes up. I personally need a good reminder to slow down a bit and break in the middle of that giant expedition. If anyone is able to step up and state they didn't feel that rushed tempo when the 'battle' portion of the game began, I will be astonished. Yes, in a perfect world timers aren't needed. But this isn't perfect, there are varying styles, and there are the considerations of how you respect the tempo of the group you are in. And it's proven, the group takes the upper end of the tempo every time. It is so hard to slow things down, we've had 10 minute rest timers for years and years and years. This has bred a number of problems in general balance, and the overall tempo of the game. And we are wildly used to it which is going to cause a lot of system shock. Over the years this server has adapted to a mentality directly resulting from this timer. This statement may seem extreme, but again, if anyone can stand up and say they don't feel that tempo, by all means correct me. Adventure time is mostly non-roleplay time, and roleplay time is bench time. Why does roleplay have to be limited to a city? Why when we are in the most scary of places where emotion should be wildly apparent, is there naught but what you can type in as you sprint? This is an issue and I appreciate the cage rattle.
I'm enjoying the campfires. I just wish we had tents we could set up too.
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I agree with what Halfwit is saying about the GIANORMOUS no magic zone. It makes mages and some clerics almost worthless. That area gets a *big thumbs down* It is nice looking though :D
AeonBlues
Ahhh... I have to. My more mature post is above and prior to this response. The audacity of citing this cracks me up. I've spent the last 4 years growing accustomed to standing back beyond enemy spell range on my caster because the group was more effective in many cases if our lone caster didn't buff, but instead went towards full attack spell slots. I am positive I grunted annoyed in these cases, but I also resigned myself to understanding that I am not the most powerful asset in *all* cases, and I did do what I could to add my piece to the group, which was usually killing the remaining two creatures that were standing their dazed, and trying to do it fast enough because I didn't have buffs, and they did have wail of the banshee... while the caster in the group set himself up for the next encounter. I built the thunder peaks to give one... just *one* region of the world where the roles changed. And hey, one of the most valuable people, and definitely the most appreciated, in a group today was Katrina, a full caster, who used the heal potions to keep us all alive. So at least she gets this.
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Dorg:
I agree with the intentions of this, to avoid: Bash rest bash same spells bash rest same spells.
My solution personally would've been to actually de-nerf the other spells for some versatility, but hey, that may actually be a future plan for all I know ;).
It was originally said: lets see how this goes..so that's what Im going with for now...>_> That may be a bit selfish though; personally whenever I rested in UD getting emeralds or anything else, I always had atleast six offensive spells left..
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Hm... so where do I start?
At firts none of my two chars is really affected by the change (one is lvl9 and one is lvl7) but I can understand Merlin's Problem aswell as I understand dorg. Yes, RP duriong the adventures is great. It adds a lot of fun and makes the adventures unique. I would really appriciate if this change helps to establish more of this.
I have a suggestion (it came to my mind and I post it without having thought to much abou it, so please be kind;) )
Whats if only the highest class would be relevant? So a lvl 15 Mage/5 Rogue would have a rest timer of 15? And maybe an addition that say at least a rest timer of lvl-5 (so would be 15 for that example aswell). That would matter for caharacters with nearly equally high leveled classses or with three classes. So 5wizzard 5fighter 10spellsword would be allowed to rest every 15minutes although the highest class has only 10 levels.
That was my idea and my point of view, thanks for reading and thanks for all posters sofar that keept the thread an discussing and non-flaming thread, please keep on!
>Xirion<
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Everyone is being constructive! Very good!
I am enjoying the feedback...
Seriously...
:)
Keep it up! We might find common ground yet!
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I personally like the new timer as it makes the normal day to day play more like a quest. In a quest you have a GM deciding where it makes RP sense for you to rest and the rest timer can effectively be an hour or more depending on the situation. It really makes you consider what you really need most for each situation and plan for contingencies. Much more challenging. I think the only thing that really needs to happen in conjunction with this is to ensure that GMs understand that parties buffs will necessarily wear off in a dungeon at some time and the party will need to rest so to try to be careful and be aware of what types of encounters are used when its been a long time since the party rested and realize now that the impact of a disrupted rest is now much larger. As long as there is a balance of understanding that everyday is more like a quest now then I think things will be much more interesting overall with this system.
From an impact on combat power this affected me quite a bit too since many of the abilities that make Clarissa powerful are short duration and can only be used a certain number of times per day so now the higher level she gets the less effective she will be in this respect since the times per day don't go up.
So like I was saying, as long as GMs and players alike recognize that what this change means is that the effective combat pace of the server just dropped by half, everything will be fine and we will all just have to adjust to the slower combat pace.
I have found many times after a trip of adventuring realizing that the pace had been so fast that we hardly had time to talk or make anything of the adventure than just a grind. This change is welcome to me since it will force me to slow down and fill the non combat time with substance.
My two trues :)
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... as GMs and players alike recognize that what this change means is that the effective combat pace of the server just dropped by half ...
Perhaps should be noted that this, of course, may be so for levels 20+ only. Doesn't make much difference to a lot of other people. Just as an aside. :)
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Perhaps should be noted that this, of course, may be so for levels 20+ only. Doesn't make much difference to a lot of other people. Just as an aside. :)
Of course this is true. The effect increases with level since the number of spells and abilities stops going up at level 20 for most things. So even though buffs last longer the combat spells don't increase in number so the combat effectiveness over time will decrease will level increase. Of course this is a gross generalization. I am just trying to characterize the impact on a global scale. The bottom line is that the combat pace and effectiveness over time is lower now due to this change and that should be well understood by everyone.
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*does a 180* and that no magic zone is mad XP for a place where there is not much point of resting.
AeonBlues and his shifty eyed looks
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A way to rationalize this in a roleplay sense might be to consider this analogous to a natural process/affect of aging.
Your youth where one gains rapid knowledge and abilities (relatively quick leveling at lower levels) is past.
Your knowledge and abilities are still increasing, albeit now at a slower pace but now their are other issues: You just can't keep up at the physical pace you used to as a youngster..or you can but not but only at 'chosen moments' , that is, for shorter durations.
So while indeed you get smarter, wiser, and indeed more powerful.. there are physical tradeoffs.
People make this adjustment every day, mostly unconciously as they adjust to their physical limitations.
In real life most everyone wishes they had they had the physical stamina of their youth back to go along with years of knowledge gained through life experience.
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LoL.. I played for about 8 hours yeastarday with this new system and I didn't even noticed that the rest time have changed :D
I admitt that I spend all that time in the dead magic area zone so that might have been the reason though..:rolleyes:
First of all I wanna say thanks to Chongo who have made this place.
How cool is it not with a party of non spellcasters, Fighters, monks, rogues and so on.. can actually explore on their own whithout relying on buffs and the mages weirds, wails and claps. Up till now the frontliners much so have been cleaning up the scraps after said spells.
finally fighters in high lvls can team up whithout a spellsinger and go places that doesn't mean instant death but still are fun and a challange..
I love the mountain area with the big giants..
The pirate inspired area are cool obviosly designed for rogues :p
The spellsingers have all the rest of layo where they can do the same..
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it also brings into play the aspect that spell casters have to rely on the other members of the party
in all the PnP and novels and pretty much everything having to do with this game
mages are the studious frail types that pray they have a strong friend with them when their spells are depleted to protect and make sure they last till the next campsite
and the age factor comes into play as well
yes your more powerful but your also if your that high of level and human pushing 60 plus since even another 18 years have passed since the end of the war,though far from decrepit ,use the aging thing
we dont have an aging script or i think this wouldnt even come into play,but even the arch mages had backups for the times when they had exhausted their spells
front liners have their own small duration buffs that can counter the advanced time and if they dont what did they do during before their friend were such glowing tank creators
even elminster had contingency plans for situations because he didnt let things rely on chance
now he never walked layo but the same general tactic can be applied
learn to use that crossbow you have gathering dust in your chest
find choking powder and fire bombs and other nice sneaky tricks to aid your fellows till the next campsite is found and the perimeter is set
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"....In a quest you have a GM deciding where it makes RP sense for you to rest and the rest timer can effectively be an hour or more depending on the situation. It really makes you consider what you really need most for each situation and plan for contingencies. Much more challenging...."
"....I have found many times after a trip of adventuring realizing that the pace had been so fast that we hardly had time to talk or make anything of the adventure than just a grind...."
"....I think it promotes better RP, and makes Layo more consistent with PNP...."
"....Anyone who has played D&D in a PnP setting might remember how the length of time a caster had to rest/study/pray was dependent upon how many spells and of what level they were. The metric our group used was 15 minutes per spell level. So 4 1st level spells or 1 4th level spell could be regained in an hour. So what would happen is the whole group would make camp and hang out while the casters got their mojo back. And yeah, game time would move forward while we did, so it was a choice to be made. Also, combat buffs usually lasted for what? One battle? No roaming the countryside with 20 buffs at the ready...which brings me to another point.
The first time you go somewhere, you get prepared as much as you can and get ready for trouble early. After going a couple of times, you learn that you don't really need your buffs right away, and in fact you can go with only a few (or none) until certain spots. Things like this can elongate the usefulness of casters even if the durations don't overlap with the rest timers...."
Those comments right there are why I approved the changed and indeed wanted the change. RP, immersion, and strategy should be a major key when playing. My 2 cents.
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I just want to say personally I love the new timer system.
And it does affect way more people than just casters.
For example, every person wearing a helmet of armor is now affected as at higher levels the helmet wont protect you the whole time. Jacc being a multiclass, his own protection spells (ranger-10 and sorc-8 ) wont even last his rest cycle. His special Arcane Archer abilities can be used way less.
But I still love it, why? Cause it challenges us to improvise. You have to actually think and plan now. Many ways to improvise. Another example, how many of you have run fully buffed from Arnax to Mitirix cause you know you can rest at the end and it does not matter that you waste spells in Arnax. How many of you have entered a room fully buffed only to see no danger inside. We do this purely cause it is easy to rest and rebuff.
The rest timers will make people think and not just make magic easy to get and use. Someone mentioned an example of having to wait to rest before being able to dispell. I love that, cause you dont have the spell memorised, you should have to wait to memorise it. Or perhaps you should have one memorised just in case.
Now I speak of improvise, how can one improvise. Cast the spells relevant to the situation, always keep emergency spells handy. Use scrolls, potions, wands. Those things never get used much but could be all you need to cover you till your next rest.
Just my two cents.
PS: Need potions? Call Raven or Jacc :D
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I don't play a caster on Layonara. I suck playing casters, my thing is the rogue class, however I just have to:
When the servers went back up, on the day of the update, and we went exploring with ket, wren, beasty, krys, clarissa, rose and some other folks I started noticing something was different.
We all noticed the dead magic zone but decided to explore anyway.
It was a totally new experience for me.
The first trip wasn't long.
Our casters and clerics became bummed feeling somewhat useless, but the thing is they just didn't adjust. After that trip, we returned to the Crossroads. On the second trip, all we had were monks, fighters, rogues and barbarians..
[please correct me if there were casters there, but on the first trip we made north of the crossroads, I am certain we had not a single caster, only Hardragh I think, but he's multiclass]
Ironically, the fun began, because it was a really hard place, and we worked perfectly as a team. Everyone healing each other, we stopped to talk in firecamps several times, before I even realize there was a new Rest Timer and I didn't notice it because I was immersed on the roleplay we were having, and not thinking "Who should I ask for a stoneskin now?". Obviously people died, and SS's were lost, looters were constantly bugged to describe items in middle of the battle but that is just part of the game. It was the greatest layonara experience I had in a long time. In future trip, we had casters with us, and they did their job of healing, using bows and stayin' back. They probably had fun aswell.
Comparing this trip to the others I had, where wizards slaughter everything and we rest every 10.0001 minutes only to spend three minutes rebuffing everyone, I must say I thought I was on a different server.
This update and it's new rules/tweaks, you may not realize because you are thinking "I lost power, I am weaker now", are a HUGE blessing for some of us players. One thing that makes me think this way is one sad episode where I had to witness and be a part of a gorup that should be friends arguin over who's coming on the trip or not, because "we might not have enough buffs"... Because of BUFFS... So not necessary.
Come on now, this will give you the chance of planning tactics and forming alliances to survive, you will actually feel the adrenialine rush and fear for your character's life, you will have to rethink your healing/ward methods it will improve greatly the RP, realism, immersion and it's still possible to hunt like crazy.
Yikes, this is too long already and I am tired, but please reconsider. I'm not saying anyone's opinion is wrong, and I'm definatly not trying to flame.
I'm sorry some casters feel nerfed by the new system, but in reality, it only brings good to the server and I thank the people who made the call.
Lino
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When it takes 4 million xp+ and many dedicated months to level, then prolonging the time between the "xp grind crunch cycle" is just pure torture. Now one could always say "well, you should be getting quest xp!" Yes... good idea until one has a fulltime job and a 4 hour window of opportunity every night to actually play. And whenever I look on the calendar for that 4 hour window, anything that is posted is "invite only" or "closed to new members".
Not a big fan of making the nigh impossible even harder. Maybe when I was unemployed and had an extra 8 hours a day to invest into Layo... but now it's just even harder for me to roll an 18-ton xp boulder uphill.
Less resting means more downtime. Time for RP perhaps, but I'd rather be encouraged to set aside RP-time when appropriate rather than forced. I'd rather be able to just sit down after a long day at work and play the game than sit around chatting by a campfire for an extra 10 minutes/day. Maybe some other people enjoy doing that... well, nothing was stopping them from doing that with the old 10 minute timer anyhow. But the new rest timer is stopping me from having fun and playing in the style I would like to. It eats up even more of my fun-time for mandatory down-time in the interests of people who could just be spending their own time chatting on their own accord.
As if misclicking the rest button and having to wait 10 minutes to try again wasn't annoying enough already.
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but I'd rather be encouraged to set aside RP-time when appropriate rather than forced.
Amen. People shouldn't ideally be forced to RP. It should happen regardless. It should happen either way. It should happen in any situation. This is another reason I think that this may not have been the best of ideas, now that it has been brought up.
Example: Before the rest timer was put in, Angela, Alantha, Storold, Val, Sallaron, Jacc , and Rhynn (forgive me if I missed anyone) took a trip out East to the Northern Reaches of the forest. In the middle of it all, without the rest timer telling us to, we put down a camp fire and decided , for then, it would be more fun just to RP. True, we were granted with a bit of an 'imprmptu' for doing so, but I don't think it was anyone's intentions
Then again, I don't agree with "XP rewards for good RP" or "The WL XP Bonk Stick" either for the same reason.
I came here to RP.
I didn't come to RP because I was being forced to (or because I would get nifty rewards for it for that matter).
Anyone who needs special perks, or so much balance shot into the veins of the game that they need to be forced to Roleplay is, in my opinion [blunt] pretty much expendable and only dampening the spirit of the server anyway [/blunt]
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Lynn I share your oppinion. RP is fun, RP is good and RP makes most of the fun...but! But not all people may see it this way, some people maybe forced to do so, or rewarded for doing so. For the people who do so anyway it is a nice bonus and I dont see why this should be wrong. For the other people, well there are two possibilities and I think it is just a matter of time and one of the possibilities will happen:
1st: They discover the fun one can have while RPing around (I am an bloody optimist you knoiw)
2nd: They recognize that the server wants, forces and rewards RP but are not willing to RP but to fight and leave the server to find a better suiting one
In the end both possibilities, though the first one is obviously nicer, help to make Layo a btter place for those who love roleplaying.
Ofcourse it would be ideal if there would be no neccesarity to force or reward someone, but the there are no ideals. And it seems obvious that there is neccesary, I dont think this change would have had happened otherwise.
To lonnarin, I understand that aswell. I have two children and everyone who has kids can imagine that there is not too much time left.
I would have loved to join the plot Quest, but I had no time. I was curious about Darkstormes quest but had no time either amd there were some other quest I was not able to join... All the time I am playing here I tried every monday to join Pseudonyms stand alone quest and made it last monday for the first and maybe last time.
My playing time will decrease in about two weeks even more and I will probably be under a 4 hour window.
We both should try to make the best of this time. Rping or adventuring. But I dont think you get these 4mill+ xp from soloing, do you? So have fun with the group you are travelling with maybe it is even more fun to RP during the adventures... find some nice tactics... So I will stop now because maybe I am just to low in lvl to comment on it, but maybe this is a possibility.
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*does a 180* and that no magic zone is mad XP for a place where there is not much point of resting.
AeonBlues and his shifty eyed looks
Wow, you're still going...
1) It's not changing so you may want to get over it.
2) If anyone can show me on paper that this yields more experience then the standard Belinara areas where you are mass hasted and with spells, then I'll be impressed... because it's impossible. Even with the feeling of great success in there, you're netting about one third of what you would in the same amount of time in a magic zone with the same CR.
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So one major theme I see in many of the responses is:
"Why do we need forced RP with a rest timer? I like to set aside time to RP."
I think this basic thinking is the whole reason it was added. I know for some people the "game" is to kill as many things as you can, get as many resources, and get that XP to get up another level so you can do the same thing in a harder area. For Leanther though, he has said since the creation of this world, that it is an RP focused world and the game I just described above is not this game. You can play that game here to a degree, but it is not the game of this world.
The biggest problem I have with people who like to "set aside time to RP" is that is artificial and it does not make an immersive experience. I know I've run into this from both sides.
I'll log on with a character and chat someone up in town and suggest a trip for some resources or even just to beat back a population of monsters. I get an IC decline, often followed with a tell that goes something like, "Sorry this is my RP time, we'll go out another time."
Another time I may be actually out gathering or trampling some monsters and it seems like it's non-stop. I'm trying to type as fast as I can and people are running from screen to screen and encounter to encounter. By the time I finish typing something I erase it because the moment has long past. Any "break" is the short time it takes to rest and re-buff the party.
I personally feel the benefit of changing the rest timers is that maybe, just maybe, people will start to see that you can RP WHILE you adventure!! Just think to the best non-quest adventures you've had. I can bet that for the majority of you it was those times where you went out bashing or collecting CNR with a "good group" and you kept getting caught up stopping more than you had to or you found yourself walking a little bit more and above all you were typing and talking a lot more.
A few things I ask anyone who has problems with the new setup:
1. Walk. I know, it's simple, and to many it feels like you are moving through molasses since you've been in hyper-speed your whole life. You'll find though that while walking you can actually type and have a conversation with people, getting out more than a few words before the party has hopped another transition.
2. When you rest, pretend for just a few minutes that "resting" is not something that takes 15 seconds for your rest bar to fill up while you snore. As people have suggested, actually make camp. Does that mean you need a campfire? No. I'd personally prefer people to act according to the environment. If you are in a safe-ish place, then while not light up a fire, eat, chat a bit. If you aren't, then take turns watching guard. The guards can chat while the others sleep and then swap.
3. Get out more, not less. I see so many people who RP in towns and adventure outside of towns and never shall they cross. Towns are a great place to meet up and if all you feel like doing is chatting, great, go for it. But a lot of people here do like the adventure part of the game and knowing that doing 1 & 2 above will give you plenty of time to chat, perhaps head out of town a bit more often.
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I agree with you vgn but I didn't exactly mean it like that. I mean that in a perfect world there shouldn't be reasons that we have to be forced or bribed into Roleplay in or out of adventure. On or Off quests. The fact that we do just makes me a bit grouchy =P
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You hit the point. 100%, nothing to add, thanks for that. Most funny adventures are fighting+rp, regardless of the xp gained the gold found or the items looted, no matter if you mine copper or platinum. And your PC would have heavy legs RL if they run the whole continent up and down (though while I am alone I do it)
Thanks!
Lynn: Right aswell but this ,and I am sure you know that, will never be. Nothing is perfect, unfortunately.
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But it's not a perfect world and some people are tempted, like me, to just go go go when you can. It's a goal oriented type thing I think. I have personally tried to remember to slow down and it has not always been successful. The good news for those who can remember and have disciplined themselves to go slower is that the new system won't affect them. And for those of us that need a reminder it will help. I think it works out for both groups.
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Unless, it seems, you're multiclassed which takes us back to the start
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Unless, it seems, you're multiclassed which takes us back to the start
Second verse, same as the first! ;)
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Second verse, same as the first! ;)
A half rhyme!:D
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yes, I think most of my problem with the this is that it hurts multiclassed casters the most. The time spells last is based on single caster class. So say your 20th level, with a 13/7 split. Well your spells last 13 minutes, but you cant rest for 20. If you were say a 10/10 Mage/Cleric you are even in more trouble, 10 minute spells all around and 20 minute rest timer. So... one third of time or worse time you are very vulnerable. And when you have a character who absolutely has to have those buffs to survive, your going to end up running for your life every couple of battles or so, or stay in the back plinking monsters for 10 HPs damage with a bow. Sorta drastically changes how one has to play their character doesn't it?
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10 damage is a good hit for Jennara at any time. Don't be too hard on "low" damage.
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Hee, doesn't Jennara get like 45 attacks a round though?;)
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yes, I think most of my problem with the this is that it hurts multiclassed casters the most. The time spells last is based on single caster class. So say your 20th level, with a 13/7 split. Well your spells last 13 minutes, but you cant rest for 20. If you were say a 10/10 Mage/Cleric you are even in more trouble, 10 minute spells all around and 20 minute rest timer. So... one third of time or worse time you are very vulnerable. And when you have a character who absolutely has to have those buffs to survive, your going to end up running for your life every couple of battles or so, or stay in the back plinking monsters for 10 HPs damage with a bow. Sorta drastically changes how one has to play their character doesn't it?
Welcome to the life non-spellcasters had to live for a long time .
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I don't really think that making people stay awake or closer to a campfire for longer periods of time yeilds a net difference in observable RP any moreso than sleep depriving a person before dinner makes them more likely to tip their waiter better, or having people wait in traffic makes them drive any better. Were citing sociological effects while manipulating an unconnected variable here. Downtime does not yeild RP.
If left alone to their own devices, players who RP consistantly will do so regardless of sleep variables, and others will have longer OOC conversations in the gap. How often they are forced to stand still only changes their gameplay via increasing idle time. They will use their idle time exactly as they have used it before.
As for balancing the spellcasters argument, They've been balanced enough as it is. (especially considering how many enemy spellcasters for some reason have infinite castings/day and dont seem to drop the spell components they would need to cast such spells) Making our rest intervals longer doesn't make being a mage any harder, it just makes it more annoying and time consuming. They'll still cast the same spells per day and limit them according to X amount of encounters regardless of the timer, and now they just have more downtime in between the bouts. The only result is now the pace of gameplay is slower and less enjoyable. Now we have to sit around longer in between bouts and spend time doing what we could have chosen to do of our own accord, sitting around to stare at a fire. Now my time having fun is less and my time sitting afk is more. While my bladder might benefit, my enjoyment factor per hour most assuredly does not.
After 3 years and 18 levels max, I'm tired of the slow road. I'm a feeble old man jogging uphill soaked in mollasses and the people at the top of the mountain are rolling boulders down on me, telling me I run too fast. They are driving italian sports cars and complaining that the trip isn't slow enough for them to enjoy instead of stepping out of the car to walk and smell the roses on their own accord. That's what it feels like to me.
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Downtime does not yeild RP.
I have seen many counter examples to this claim in just the past two days. It may not be true in all cases but in many cases the extra downtime is resulting in more RP. I am not trying to be argumentative, We just have to be careful what assumptions we make and be sure that we don't make policy on perception but on evidence.
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I wonder if Kenelm's role will be more understood now... :\
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So, let me see here, increase resting, take out magic and thats supposed to encourage RP?
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The no magic part is just one small region that serves the purpose of providing opportunities for classes that they didn't have before. I think, if I am not mistaken that magic items were increased in power during this update. So for the rest of the world there is more magic. But yeah, less resting does mean more RP in many cases and more challenge in all cases.
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This is not PnP, to be true. However, it is based on PnP. Wizards, and even sorcerers in PnP rely heavily on items that are very difficult and costly to make in order to keep up. You're a weak 10th level wizard if you don't have at least 10 wands and 20 scrolls at the ready. The reality is you just don't have enough magic to get you through a day's worth of adventure and still have some for back up.
I have always found it very strange that NWN caster's don't really need magic items (magic items are useful, but not necessary). Scrolls and wands don't take spell components to cast, yet they are hardly used. True, in NWN scrolls are considerably less versatile and less powerful than in PnP, but even so, they are still very useful.
Of course, the CNR bit is rough, and I have to admit that I am no fan of CNR, and only do it because of how useful it is, and because of how difficult some items are to purchase.
My point is, that with the new rest timer spellcasters will benefit much more from the use of wands and scrolls (and even a staff or two), essentially meaning that fighter-types won't be the only classes that rely heavily on magic items to keep up. Also, it means that spellcasters will benefit from being more well-rounded themselves, taking the time to learn a combat move or two, or simply how to be effective as something other than a spell slinger. Moreover, it opens up more versatility to the spellcasting classes, in that it makes sense to decide whether you want to be a pure spell-slinger, or be primarily a slinger with some training in other things (yes, this can be accomplished without multiclassing). In short, learning how to function when you can't rely on magic, either because you've run out or because of a dead magic zone, will help define your "place."
As a note, I play a multiclassed fighter/wizard and a sorcerer. Certainly, Steel's spells, even with extend (which I planned to take before this rest timer took effect), don't last long enough to make him the wall that powerful spellcasters become, but they are still useful. That's the trick, really, learning when and where what spells are useful. Learning not to rely on magic so much as your own wits. Spellcasters are supposed to be the hardest classes to play, not the easiest. As it is, I hear too often that someone has become bored of their spellcaster because things are too easy with them.
All casters, but especially multiclass casters will learn not to buff with every buff they have, but to pick and choose which buffs they need for which places. Some casters I notice already do this, but most I see simply apply every buff they have for every situation. I think you'll find, if you pick and choose based on what information the scouts bring you about an encounter, then you can have multiple castings of the protections you need instead of wasting the spell slots on buffs that never get used. More castings of what you need mean you can last longer.
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lonnarin,
I adore your characters. They are fascinating, unique, and always a blast of fresh air. For heaven's sake you were a hilarious GM back in the day. Which is why I'm so surprised you're worried about getting over the next XP hump. I wasn't aware that was the primary source of fun for you on Layo. Catching a level rocks, but what fun is it if that's all there is for four hours at a time? I need a little drama, a little intrigue, and a little mystery to go with the grind. To me, that's adventuring. But hey, like you say, it can happen on the way. You don't necessarily need downtime. Or do you?
The reality is that in order to have a conversation, you need to have time to type, and to have time to type, you need to have at least a pause. If the RP is happening without a conversation, you still need to have time to type, because emotes have to be typed as well. Do you need a ten minute pause? Not all the time.
So what do you do during the downtime if you don't feel like conversing? Keep adventuring. So you have to make your magic stretch ten minutes longer. Sounds like an even better adventure to me. More challenge equals more adventure, in my opinion.
And really, how often does a 15th+ lvl character rest every ten minutes when you have more than two people on an adventure? In my experience, I only have to rest every ten minutes when I'm soloing (bloody platinum), or with just one or two other people. In a party of four or more 15+ characters, lasting 15-20 mins isn't all that hard, even without taking a break.
For reference, I too have limitied IG time, and VERY seldom get to play an actual four hour block. I usually get about an hour, then I have to log, then maybe another hour, then I have to log until the next day. I have two jobs, I'm in graduate school, I have a four month old daughter, and I'm have duties as a GM and with LORE. I feel your pain. =P
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So, after this long address, let me reitterate:
1) My main PC is a multiclass caster. My other PC is a pure caster (who has point blank shot, rapid shot, and weapon finesse :p )
2) I have limited playtime.
3) I am in favor of the extended rest timer for the reasons listed above.
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Some of the best RP I have seen is between battles. No fire needed, just walking will strike up some very fun and interesting RP. Walkng places is a chance for people to tell stories and take pot shots at each other. Especially, if someone messed up during the last battle, you get a chance to harp on them about their fighting skills or something.
Did the battle decrease? Yes, but the fun and RP was increased exponentially. If your goal is battle, battle, battle, then the timer is not very inviting. If your goal is to continue battling and getting CNR with RP in there, the timer is not noticed.
I am not a fast typer, but in the transients, I like to strike up conversation. I am almost the last in the pack. I have learned, that if I type, run, click in the text window again (does not erase my previous text) and then finish what I was saying when I catch up to the party.
I have been trying to get spells for the ranger class for ever, it hasn't happened. The ranger class has spells that are short in duration and this doesn't help, but I am still in favor of the timer.
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im henry the eight i am henry the the eighth i am i am
oh sorry
there are wards that last for much longer then per lvl
sure the super ones are per lvl so make save them for the big dragon instead of the little kobold
use the ones that are by the day wisely as well
and there is nothing wrong with plinking from time to time
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Gday all.
Although Im rarely online these days, I still pop in from time to time and keep in contact with many others. Over the last 3 to 4 years I've been on Layo, I've never seen people level as fast as I do these days, especially since the beginning of this year. I'm talking about level 1 to 15 in a few months, maybe faster. To me that is simply ridiculous. In the old days the main way to level was to go on quests, some people attending 5+/week. Good luck to them. I may have done something similar if there were as many in the aussie time zone, however, we took advantage of our 1/month and that was it. At least by going on the quests we're interacting and RPing. These days people level fastest by hacking and slashing and maybe its due to the imminent ending of Layo for NWN in the near future that has prompted people to go on a xp farming spree and race to hero status. Whilst I dont really care about the next person, when new players or existing players join our groups during the times we go on a hunting spree, we get comments like 'you guys are great, at least you RP AND hunt!'. That leads me to believe that Dorgs comment on the Hack/Rest/Buff has been abused to a point that makes Layo a RP/Action server.
Now with this new resting system, its going to put a real halt on this rapid levelling and Im amused to see what happens from here. Comments like, 'some areas have mad xp' and 'some areas have mad items', are another example of people abusing the resting system. I do however, feel sorry for some multi-classed people as they will be much weaker but hey, all the more reason to co-ordinate with good groups.
Ive spoken about this change to resting with others for a long time and personally Im glad its here. Now a fighter becomes more important and in entices group play over soloing. The only thing now is you may see an influx of monks or druids (shifters).
Lets think of some other good things it will bring. Scrolls, Potions and Wands will become more import, thus the demand for these will improve the economy. The extra difficulty will make people step out of their comfort zones and try something new. Mages might even want to start selling their extended buffs as a service. Bandages and healing will become even more important and another selling point.
In my experience whenever something changes to make life seemingly more difficult, people eventually find a way around it. It happens all the time and this is no separate circumstance. We'll have a lot of arguing over it but in the end, once the dust settles people will find its actually more enjoyable for the right reasons.
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Wow, you're still going...
1) It's not changing so you may want to get over it.
2) If anyone can show me on paper that this yields more experience then the standard Belinara areas where you are mass hasted and with spells, then I'll be impressed... because it's impossible. Even with the feeling of great success in there, you're netting about one third of what you would in the same amount of time in a magic zone with the same CR.
I did say it was beautiful looking.
I like it as my character is not a spell caster. I think it is a fun and challenging place to. I was throwing out some opinions... I fully admit, and you can quote me on this, that my opinions are flawed at least twice as often as my facts. I just worry about other people being happy and not feeling left out.
I am sorry if I offended you dude.
AeonBlues
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Well on the two big points in this thread (big no magic zone and rest timers) I have to say a big YAY!
I knew the update was going to be fun but I had no idea that it would be this fun.
The trips in the no magic zone have not yielded any more XP then a east run used to. The RP that the rest timers have given us the opportunity to have has been great during the time we were "bashing". Heck I dont think I can even use the term "bashing" anymore.
Here are some of the positive effects of both on my PCs:
My fighter is needed
I have had to rely on barb rage
Almost every encounter has to be well coordinated
NO ONE is running out in front "charging"
Spawns have turned groups back WITHOUT total group wipe out
Ranger/archer giant killers are soooo needed (wish I still played one)
Missile weapons are actually useful
So all in all I am very happy with the changes. Even the drops that at first had my eyebrows all up (LOL) I now understand.
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And rogues are very useful in the no magic zones too, although Zup does miss shooting monster casters in the eyes.
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Rogues have found a usefulness somewhere???? Rue the day fools, Arkolio knew his time would come ....... eventually!!!!
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Perhaps I am being too overcritical too early in into the change before giving it a good trial... I'm mostly just stressed from my lack of time away fromLayo with work and school, and that it looks like the pacing of the gameplay has slowed a little. I admit, with extra planning, characters can push through the added minutes by using extention feats of casting spartanly.
I think though that fighters would enjoy the realism of this update far less if the balancing were complete and only a certain number of healing kits could be used per day before a script stopped them and said "Mummification is not the answer... see a cleric".
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"Mummification is not the answer... see a cleric".
Neither is having enough Healers Hug belts to encircle the globe.....
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I have been thinking about this and talking to some people in game about it. I know we should wait a bit before we change anything but it occurs to me that maybe there should be a cap on the rest timer. The reason I mention this is that after 20th level in a caster class you never get more spells and even though buffs last longer your combat capability will decrease as you level since it would have to be spread out over a longer and longer period. Many abilities have X/day limits that don't change as you go up past 20th so again leveling past 20th reduces your effectiveness over time. It seems that the net result after 20th level is a penalty for leveling past 20. I am thinking that as a compromise between more RP and not penalizing characters for leveling that the rest timer should cap out at 20 min to avoid what I think is an unintended consequence. This would also allow mutliclasses to get better as they level since the mulitclass could eventually aproach the effectiveness of the pure caster when leveling past 20. Just some thoughts from an informal survey.
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Conversely, Layonara could de-nerf the level caps they put on every spell, and therefore make more than about , say , three useful again.
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I'm pretty sure there is a cap set Sky.
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Perhaps this will cause greater impact on the people above level 20 and for the older players, that worked hard this might seem unfair.
However, I think that now, a large group of people that got there too fast recently and were taking things on an insane pace wil have opportunity to calm down and remember what RP is.
Or else why would they be creating new characters to get more in-touch with RP?
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Personally I think this new system for resting is awesome and well past due. Before some people bake me on the coals listen to the reasoning why.
1/ Finally Mages and Clerics are brought a peg back into line with the fighter & rogue classes. The ability of a mage and cleric with extended buffs to move through area after area killing massive amounts of opponents before stopping to rest is just not feasibly possible for the fighter and rogue classes. Believe me..I have seen this happen on many occassions both as a player and as a GM over the last few years. Where fighters have to stand toe to toe with multiple opponents, mages can kill in seconds and move on to another area again and again. Finally this limitation stops then from doing this.
2/ Layonara has never been portrayed as a magic rich world. This limitation means more reliance on scrolls, more reliance on drop items etc instead of people having copious amounts of this stuff stored in their inventories lagging the server they are actually using it! Great..another problem solved.
3/ Consider a 20th level fighter...he is experienced, he has to be to get to his level. When he rests he tends to his equipment, fixes dents in armour, fixes padding, takes out nicks in his weapon, plans his next moves etc, etc. The more experienced he is the more he plans and prepares cause he knows the dangers he must be prepared to face. Consider a mage at the same level, the weariness they would feel having cast so much magic, drawn so much on the weave, reached into the fabric of the world and drawn forth powers to shape and craft into their spells. Not to mention the tireless hours to memories spells in the early hours of each morning. They too need time and rest to recuperate. The more powerful the spells the more time they need. Now consider the 10th level mage/ 10th level fighter..he has to deal with both his spells and tend to his equipment. His time is taken up in both pursuits..really he should probably take even longer to prepare.
No I am sorry but I believe this system is awesome and a huge benefit to Layonara.
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3/ Consider a 20th level fighter...he is experienced, he has to be to get to his level. When he rests he tends to his equipment, fixes dents in armour, fixes padding, takes out nicks in his weapon, plans his next moves etc, etc. The more experienced he is the more he plans and prepares cause he knows the dangers he must be prepared to face. Consider a mage at the same level, the weariness they would feel having cast so much magic, drawn so much on the weave, reached into the fabric of the world and drawn forth powers to shape and craft into their spells. Not to mention the tireless hours to memories spells in the early hours of each morning. They too need time and rest to recuperate. The more powerful the spells the more time they need. Now consider the 10th level mage/ 10th level fighter..he has to deal with both his spells and tend to his equipment. His time is taken up in both pursuits..really he should probably take even longer to prepare.
I see you other points Dezza, but this one eludes me. ;)
If a fighter needs more time to fix his gear, mages are exhausted beyond belief by the vast magical powers they have expended then would it in fact not be the other way around with rest.
The actual resting would be longer i.e. the time you are waiting after pressing your rest button, and not the time between rests. In fact would this not mean that if mages are really exhausted by their arcane arts they would need to rest more often to be able to keep up. Of course you should be limited in your resting in some way though.
I was just curious as I don't see this point as an argument for longer times between rests. :)
Of course this is a balancing issue and I fully acknowledge that and understand the thoughts behind (or at least I think so ;) )
EDIT: Removed a dumb statement.
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Conversely, Layonara could de-nerf the level caps they put on every spell, and therefore make more than about , say , three useful again.
The "nerfing" of a lot of spells was mostly the product of people who would use one or a combination of a few spells in their default configurations as an "I win" button, and then proceeded to abuse the heck out of them, ignoring our requests to show some good judgment and to not continue with such tactics.
Remember that Bioware built NWN centered around the FR setting, an inherently "high magic" environment where +7 armors, bracers and weapons drop with regularity. The creatures, spells, weapons and really all the equipment in the game were designed and balanced around that concept. Layonara is not the same. Unfortunately, Layonara was first built and balanced when NWN had a level cap of 20 levels. When the expansions came out and epic levels became available, things had to stretch, but game play over level 20 was more of an add-on than a smooth progression. One thing we wanted to try and do with V3 was to rebalance everything on a 1-40 level scale, and yes, that would mean more meaningful spell duration/effect progression through all 40 levels and not just 1-20, but time and resources made that prohibitive.
Simply de-nerfing spells will not really solve any problems by itself. It will in fact make more that need to be re-balanced on a large scale. That right there is a huge effort and one we simply don't have time to address. A few specific spells, perhaps, but certainly we won't be reverting to Bioware defaults on all or even most spells. Even if you take the level progression caps out of the picture, a lot of Bioware's default spells were still either overpowered for Layonara or simply don't fit right.
And yeah, I realize that this is, in part, a few bad apples, who for the most part don't even play here anymore, spoiling it for the rest. There's not much more I can say about that really.
De-nerfing wouldn't really address the issue here anyway, and would be a lot more complex than finding a slightly different progression to the rest timer, since it seems the primary complaint about it is that the spell durations don't mesh well with the rest timers. To me (and yep, I play a multi-classed caster), this is of lesser concern, and people will learn to adapt to longer timers. Perhaps they won't stay this long (and that will depend on good information and feedback from actual game-play), but my guess is that they'll still be elongated with some level dependence factor.
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Well thanks Dorg, I understand what you're saying about the difference between NWN centering around FR and NWN centering around Layonara. I also understand what you're saying about the lack of time and resources and that truthfully is a bit of a shame. I guess the comment just sprung from seeing (and using myself) the same three-six spells because nothing else seems to do any good, what with either everything having such a high reflex or fort save (and rightfully so, because its needed to balance other things). But that takes this thread way off track, so no need to address this comment any further here :)
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I'm pretty sure there is a cap set Sky.
I don't think so or at least if there is the cap is above 28 minutes as I spoke to one level 28 character that said the rest timer was 28 min for them. Since 20th level is where spells stop increasinr in number it just seems a good compromise to cap at 20 but that's up to the team. I just brought it up because if the issue is causing major bummers for some players then maybe it could be moderated where it makes sense. I mean up to 20th level (20 min) I think all of the benefits listed in this post take place. After that I can see that it is effectively a penalty for leveling higher and I don't think that was the intent.
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Ozy wasn't completley certain but he said his resting cap was 36 when he tried to in passing before a quest.
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You'd have to hear it from the script side, but I thought a cap was set at 30. I could be feeding you misinformation though, sorry.
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There is currently no cap. Above 10th level it's 1 minute/level.
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well one thing to look at here is that the new drops for fighters will make it less necessary for casters to use up a lot of spells to buff them. It will take a fully cooperative group where the fighter types only ask for the buffs they absolutely need. The new items are giving SR (some of them over 25), resistances to many different damage types, freedom, and many others I am sure I should not say here. So the fighter types can help the casters by letting them know they dont need some buffs. This will give the casters more slots for battle spells, personal buffs, and other things needed.
This new update and the changes in them was thought out holistically and must be thought of in that way. If you take one item like the rest timer out of the context of the other changes then it may not make sense. But if you keep in mind the big picture you will see how it is all meant to work together.
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Take it all in context. In Beta 4 resting was *much* different, you could actually rest in full plate back then and I don't think there was a timer either as I remember. People bristled about those changes too. We'll adapt and soon enough it'll be normal.
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well one thing to look at here is that the new drops for fighters will make it less necessary for casters to use up a lot of spells to buff them. It will take a fully cooperative group where the fighter types only ask for the buffs they absolutely need. The new items are giving SR (some of them over 25), resistances to many different damage types, freedom, and many others I am sure I should not say here.
mmm... I wouldn't mislead this one too much. Immunities are extremely rare and are pretty much unchanged from the old drops (maybe one additional item with freedom). SR of 26, or 32 for that matter, on a level 30 item equates to nothing more then a perk in low level areas.
The major changes on items is a very slight bump in AC in each bracket for the epic items due to balance issues, and a few minor perks here and there. I am still wildly dependant upon casters with my character... so I guess you shouldn't get your hopes up.
:(
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Poop Chongo you shot my theory to heck. That is what I get for being a big thinker I see depth everywhere LOL.
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I would like to suggest something to help the multiclasses who suffer right now. All of these are build before this update and before people even began guessing this would happen, therefore they got above level 10 caster and thought, woho! I can stay buffed all day now. However with the new update they need more than 10 minutes of buffs to stay moving since most multiclass casters are highly dependant on being buffed at all times. I know Aragwen said that you can just save the buff for when you need it, this is very true as long as you have more class levels in the other class than the caster. However when you take ((many)) caster leves you will suffer in the ability to fight and therefore you will need your buffs to be there to keep you standing and happy, but if you thought that 10 levels of caster was enough, which it was back then, I think out of all fairness due to the new situation that you should be allowed a rebuild where you trade a feat for the extend feat so you can keep your buffs up. Storold, well he has extend and can cope with the new conditions quite well because his buffs fade so long after any other casters buffs that it doesn't really matter. However some might be suffering hard from not choosing to get their character the oppotunity to extend and are very bad off with this update, so I would really like if someone would grant them the chance to adapt their character to this rather than just sending the character out on a hard journey over the nex 1-3 levels which might be over the 20-21 bump.
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I see you other points Dezza, but this one eludes me. ;)
If a fighter needs more time to fix his gear, mages are exhausted beyond belief by the vast magical powers they have expended then would it in fact not be the other way around with rest.
The actual resting would be longer i.e. the time you are waiting after pressing your rest button, and not the time between rests. In fact would this not mean that if mages are really exhausted by their arcane arts they would need to rest more often to be able to keep up. Of course you should be limited in your resting in some way though.
I was just curious as I don't see this point as an argument for longer times between rests. :)
Of course this is a balancing issue and I fully acknowledge that and understand the thoughts behind (or at least I think so ;) )
hehe I was in a process of having an epiphany I just couldnt quite articulate!
This is a good fix as per what we can do of course with game mechanics as they are! I see your point but can only inversly explain it the way I did...if that makes sense :)
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I do think 1 min/level after 20 is a bit punitive.
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but with the current DnD rules, to rest and memorize spells should take 6 - 8 hours. So if we take a high lvl caster, say 8 hours rest ... For them to wander into a battle prepared, fight, crawl to a hidey hole, rest/memorize and repeat this two more times .. thats a full day gone by. Now to do this over and over ... it does not sound very realistic to me. Granted, this is a game, but shouldn't there be a close representation between the two? If I was to live by this pattern, I would wear myself out to the point of fatigue and in due course make a mistake to get myself killed. And yes, I am a caster myself, have a few rechargeable items, and have special abilities that need recharging. This new system makes things closer to realistic and I will learn to do things better. I think this will also cause others to hold back and discuss tactics instead of rushing blindly ahead into a situation that may make things worse by doing so. I say Kudos for the new system.
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Rogues have found a usefulness somewhere???? Rue the day fools, Arkolio knew his time would come ....... eventually!!!!
I'm tired of hearing that. A Rogue has always been useful, people just haven't been playing them properly. :D
Please correct me if I am wrong, but with the current DnD rules, to rest and memorize spells should take 6 - 8 hours. So if we take a high lvl caster, say 8 hours rest ... For them to wander into a battle prepared, fight, crawl to a hidey hole, rest/memorize and repeat this two more times .. thats a full day gone by. Now to do this over and over ... it does not sound very realistic to me. Granted, this is a game, but shouldn't there be a close representation between the two? If I was to live by this pattern, I would wear myself out to the point of fatigue and in due course make a mistake to get myself killed. And yes, I am a caster myself, have a few rechargeable items, and have special abilities that need recharging. This new system makes things closer to realistic and I will learn to do things better. I think this will also cause others to hold back and discuss tactics instead of rushing blindly ahead into a situation that may make things worse by doing so. I say Kudos for the new system.
I agree entirely. It adds a layer of tactics along with limiting the epileptic siezure trains heading into dungeons.
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Alright, level 25 is when the last of a caster's spells maxes out (Correct me if I'm wrong) But It takes to level 25 to get Greater Magic Weapon to +5. Perhaps it should be considered to cap the resting time here as well; to give some sense of equality?
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Alright, level 25 is when the last of a caster's spells maxes out (Correct me if I'm wrong) But It takes to level 25 to get Greater Magic Weapon to +5. Perhaps it should be considered to cap the resting time here as well; to give some sense of equality?
Level 40 is when the last spell caps out if you think in terms of durations and what not. Also, I think Fire Arrow works without a cap. A few others.
I get your point though, I'm just being a jerk about it.
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On the nature of learning, preparation and study.
Personally, I would have thought that the highly trained wizard would spend LESS time memorizing spells, not more. When you learn your times tables for the first time, it takes a while to get them straight.. you count on your fingers, you need to prepare. A Math PH D just recites them as a reflex. He doesn't need to stay up all night cramming.
Now maybe you can object and say "but those 9th lvl spells are like advanced calculus!" Well, yes ok... that's all well and good, but why does it take 10 minutes less time for a lvl 18 wizard to study lvl 9 spells than a lvl 28 who studies the same darn spells? Wizards don't gain many more spells/day after a certain point, most of their spells are capped. If anything, the rest timer should start *decreasing* after 20th lvl.
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Er...yes, but this is supposed to be a balancing issue, to incraese the RP and to change the gameplay... not a biological one
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Yeah...if we want to go down the biological route, then it takes several months to cross a continent, weeks to months to take boats places, a "normal" rest period is something like 5-8 hours long and pretty much gets required every day, etc. It we want to go down the biological route, then staying awake for 3 days straight would have penalties to all attributes, skills and saving throws. Do we really want to go down this road? :)
EDIT: Wizards always have to study spells, no matter how good they get, from the lowest cantrip to the highest, most powerful spell ever. Clerics still need to pray for their favors from their deities, no matter how old or how many levels they have. It is and has always been a game balancing issue
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I think we're over-citing that term here whenever we enjoy a new update... "increase RP".
If you have a good time at a campfire with a bunch of good RPers while waiting for the rest click, the RP that you enjoy is solely from the skills and interactions of those RPers, and NOT a byproduct of how long they were waiting. Those same people would be good RPers if the rest timer was 10 minutes or 60 minutes, RP in this instance is totally detached from the temporal continuum. So please, thank the PLAYERS and their RPing skills for the good RP that you encounter, not the unrelated rest timer. The rest timer does not RP. It affects gameplay dynamics like pace and difficulty and nothing more.
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It we want to go down the biological route, then staying awake for 3 days straight would have penalties to all attributes, skills and saving throws. Do we really want to go down this road? :)
Yes actually. I find it very creepy and unbalancing that fighters and rogues NEVER have to sleep and just keep wandering around, applying infinite healing kits to themselves without suffocating under the bandages or passing out from exhaustion. At least spellcasters get "tired". This is unbalanced.
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Yes actually. I find it very creepy and unbalancing that fighters and rogues NEVER have to sleep and just keep wandering around, applying infinite healing kits to themselves without suffocating under the bandages or passing out from exhaustion. At least spellcasters get "tired". This is unbalanced.
I'm gonna have to agree with that one...
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@lonnarin
Don't know how you play your rogues, mine rests normally and doesn't suffer from insomnia or any affliction of the likes...
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That only spellcasters suffer is wrong. what about paladins (not the spells they use I am talking about the feats) Arcane Archers, Babarian (rage), Dwarven Defender.... and and and... They all have abilities that are limited to x-times / day.
Not only casters have that. Most Arcane Archers have a split where the caster class only has the rwuired 5 or a few more levels. So they suffer from short spell duration of weak spells and their special abilities are limited aswell.
The other point is, what would your mage say when a fighter stands infront of him and says "Now its your turn, the badages are troubling me to much and Im not any longer able to fight" and holds out his sword to you... I think your mage would suffer even more.
Besides that, Caster classes should be the most difficult classes. Thats D&D. (and I think most other PnP's aswell)
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That only spellcasters suffer is wrong. what about paladins (not the spells they use I am talking about the feats) Arcane Archers, Babarian (rage), Dwarven Defender.... and and and... They all have abilities that are limited to x-times / day.
Not only casters have that. Most Arcane Archers have a split where the caster class only has the rwuired 5 or a few more levels. So they suffer from short spell duration of weak spells and their special abilities are limited aswell.
Well, I think the point is that caster classes are dependent on their use per day abilities, not just that they have them...
Once casters have expended their spells, in many cases they don't have much combat use (not saying they can't bandage and whatnot), whereas a paladin can still inflict smiting of great dole, an arcane archer can still rain arrows upon the enemy, a barbarian can still charge blindly into battle, etc...
Not really weighing in on one side or the other, I haven't played enough since the update, but...
*shrug*
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Whats about staffs, scrolls, potions, granades and what ever.
A caster class is thought to be deepended on close combat fighter to block them and not to reign down spells the whole battle over and over, but when it is neccesary.
For bosses or a really tough group, the fighters, babarians and waht else can not/hardly handle.
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I think I'll chime in again on this subject.
First of all I would like to say I believe that the rest timer is not a measure of how long you use to prepare, as some have stated. The rest timer is the time between rests and hence time when you are awake and acting.
I think you could argue the use of an increased rest timer as this: over time the character becomes (more) fit, used to travelling long distances and having extended fights. He/she tires less easily and hence does not need to rest as often.
I'm not sure this image works, but I'll try to explain in terms of a marathon so we can all somehow relate. At first when you start running you cannot run the entire 42 km, but in time with training you will be able to run longer and longer, and eventually run the full marathon. Think of this in terms of rest timers, then we may say that we "train" i.e. level to be able to do better and better and as our shape improves we do not need to rest as often.
With regards to "the biological road" I would say we do not wish to go down that road. I think the effects of "the biological road" are far worse than having to ignore that a fighter does not need to sleep. As a layo hour is approx 2 RL minutes let me examplify:
Resting: you will be sitting incapacitated for 12 to 16 RL minutes
Travelling: sailing from Lor to Arnax, let us assume a week layo time, you can resume play after 5 hrs 36 mins.
I know this is extreme, but I think sometimes you have to find the extreme example to prove a point. On an large scale Layo time is great, but when on the "small scale" i.e. running around adventuring, then you are already suspending reality. Accepting you can traverse a continent in a night is no different from accepting that the rogue or fighter in your party does not sleep while travelling. You may come close, but you cannot mimick RL entirely, we have to use our imagination and let the small things slide. Or at least that is my opinion.
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Alright, level 25 is when the last of a caster's spells maxes out (Correct me if I'm wrong) But It takes to level 25 to get Greater Magic Weapon to +5. Perhaps it should be considered to cap the resting time here as well; to give some sense of equality?
The key factor in determining a cap is the times per day issue to me. You keep getting more spells per day up to 20 so even though you have longer between rests you have more spells to use between rests so things kind of balance out. Once you stop getting spells/day or uses/day on abilities the increase in rest time means you have fewer things to do over time so that is a net reduction in capability even though some things get stronger and have longer duration.
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That's true, but around level 20 two things happen:
1) Influx in INT Gear. Emeralds (if you don't have them already) and certain other drops.
2) And not long after, Great INT I - IX
While you don't naturally get anymore spells/day (correct me if Im wrong here again please, I'm terrible with D&D/NWN) I think you get more from the more INT gear/INT you have
EDIT: Replace INT with CHA or WIS as applies >_
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That's true but the increases based on ability scores are very slow after 20 like to use Great INT to get 2 more point of INT so you can get 2 more spells/day it would take 2 feats which could take 6 levels. Basically after 20th level the increase in times/day for spells/abilities are so slow as to be negligible compared to the increases leading up to 20 so I think 20 minutes is the break point in the cuve where you get the best benefit with the least unintended penaties. There's no way to be exact in a way that would suit every case but I think a cap at 20 min would be a great compromise between the intended slowing in pace and the unintended penalizing of leveling.
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I rarely get into these discussions but now is a good a time as any...
I understand why L and the team made this change. To stop spam resting. Gripes are bound to come with any change and L says constantly...no system is perfect.
The only problem I am seeing is that people will get trapped in an area that will be almost impossible to get out of if they run out of buffs. They will attempt to rest in an area that is close to a re-spawn and get interrupted when it happens. (If an enemy is nearby...your rest gets disturbed...even if you aren't in the same room. Game mechanics). Their rest timer will re-set to 19 minutes...they will die and have to wait...I think it's 1 game hour or 10 RL hours to recover their bodies. (And please...no 'they shouldn't have gone in the first place' flames. I'm just stating what will happen.)
A solution you say?
Instead of lengthening the rest timer...why not put a 'safe' rest area in certain areas of the dungeon? Areas that they would have to fight to get to. And fight to leave. This would mean players would have to plan when to go get rest...instead of clearing the area then dropping down to rest.
*gets out the SPF 30 for the anticipated flames*
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Hey all...
First, thank you all for all your feedback and constructive comments. I say truthfully that I have read them all, and as some of you may be realizing after thinking about what kinds of things are affected by things, you are getting a glimpse into the complexity of keeping things in balance for the whole game.
This change of course is not solely to address one problem nor to target a group of characters and/or players. That should be re-iterated because it's such an important thing to mention. This change is for a variety of reasons and while it does significantly change some things, I'm extremely confident everyone will adapt and thrive. I give as example some sweeping changes we made to crafting a little over a year and a half ago. People complained, predicted the downfall of crafting, and yet here we are...crafting our little hearts out. :)
Having said all that, these timers have been reviewed and will be adjusted somewhat in the next patch, coming soon. I'm not going into specifics here, as they may yet change at the last minute. This will likely be the final form of these timers unless it ends up sending things too far in the opposite direction.
Again, thanks all for your input. :)
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Thank you Dorg...
I am very happy at the way my post has turned out. I think some things needed to be addressed and, well, I look forward to how they are addressed in the update, or patch, or whatever. If the are not addressed to my liking so be it. At least the opinions of us all were heard.
What I like the most is that everyone gave their constructive thoughts and the team went and thought about them!
I have no idea what they are planning, but, I appreciate that we could all sit down and give an opinion, and maybe, just maybe influence the way the world works.
There are many well thought out opinions in the posts above and shows how WE (the players), can at least help a bit as player asking, for what we need. Not demanding.
Our feedback is crucial, crucial to the developement of this world and any other we play in.
My thanks to everyone,
Merlin34
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glad this was changed. shows what one voice can do =D
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This is also a good example of how complaints and issues should be dealt with. When the team is addressed respectfully and people share their ideas without ranting and getting mad and making accusations then the team gets good input that is useful rather than just wasting their time trying to calm people down. Well done everyone. Keep it up.
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:p Off topic!--um... :D