The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: LynnJuniper on September 06, 2007, 07:44:17 AM
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I was actually going to post this as a follow up post somewhere, but I've seemed to have misplaced the original post, or the poster never posted.
I've gone through four edits of this to make it as not-negative as possible with still saying what I want to say.....I know it can possibly get people to think Im an even worse person than they do now
But I'm going to post this anyway....
I'm going to give a few of my thoughts as a caster.
Frankly, perhaps its something some discussion on tactics can help me with:
I feel useless as a party member in a strictly non RP sense and have for a while.
First of all, some people have different ideas of balance than others. Some believe that balance is having the casters able to do some things , the fighters another, the healers another etc. Others thing its more "Well Casters dominated the show so long, lets completley flip the tables." The second one isn't balance. I suppose, in some weird way there's a type of balance to it, but its not balance within server spirit (I think, my judge of server spirit has been entirely skewed lately).
As a caster I've noticed the following things. I will not even take the time out to say it was only for this update, because it wasn't. One major problem. No, the problem isn't that quest NPCs can do things that normal PCs couldn't ever try despite never ever having their names uttered in common place. No its not the fact that everyone from the smallest pesant to grandest king has true sight. Its not even the Mind, True Sight, and Death Immunities on every monster, though that does play into the fact.
Its their saves...
Evocation has never. never worked unless you've taken an epic focus in it and then you get lucky once and a while.
Everything has such a high reflex save that evocation is no longer useful. Unless you're casting Issacs Missle storm...and what fun is spamming one spell over and over?
Well it was like this before...so thats what people did: Hand, Issac, Weird, Wail, hand Issac Weird Wail
It was kind of boring, but it worked. and it worked in the party's favor...
And then , the added, but completley understood Mind, and Death immunities and True Sight were added to the mix..
Which, would've been fine. TOTALLY understandable. Casting the same three spells over and over is kind of cheap....but mix that with the fact that evocation still doesn't work...
and it turns into a bit of a problem. Casters effectively come buff monkies who sit down during the middle of fights or maybe throw a mass haste , displace, or hey, issac's missle here and there.
Or maybe I'm just completley bad at combat as others in Layonara have told me and Im missing something I as an individual could be doing better.
Maybe, and to tell you the truth, most probably the problem is with bioware: There just arent enough spells in general to make it interesting
Any suggestions?
I have to honestly admit that I don't know what I'm asking for here. I realize I complain a lot. I realise Im saying on the one hand, being able to cast the same five spells is boring, and on the other not being able to cast any is worse. I know some would beleive that if I have no solutions I should just crawl off my soap box and shut up. Sadly I am cursed or blessed with the ability to make people know how I feel. One day , as everyone says,its going to get me in serious trouble. Maybe that day is today maybe its already come.
I've recently sent a post to L telling him why I was still here: So Ill tell you bits and peices of it.
This stuff Ive mentioned doesn't want to make me stop playing, because its not what I play for in the first place, but its a big part of playing.
So long as quests are thoughtful and creative (and so long as they fit my character if Im going to be there), and so long as I have friends both IC and OOC to rp with, You're stuck with me unless you see it fit to make it otherwise :) I like you guys.
That is all.
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Well for some reason I liked that post. I've been asking people quietly and skulking for some time questions about the newest update. They tend to agree, although they have seemed to do so in the same quiet out of the way manner. Neverwinter Nights Layonara to my understanding is basically done in terms of development. Maybe a couple of small updates for important bug fixes, or the odd DM request will happen.
All the same, I have read her post and find a bit of reason to do other then quietly wait. Having seen favorable winds fall to most any given class over time. I've a much longer term approach when it comes to the term balance than many. Remember when if you were not an enchanter you had no chance, how about when clerics were all powerful, what about when... I could go on for some time. Constructive criticism is always key in life, and never easy to perform. So I suppose my agreeing with her is the criticism part of it, so now to be constructive would be the other half, yes? I suppose I could agree with her constructive outright, but I like that part to be my own at the least.
Constructive but manageable, constructive but manageable. That would be a trick really wouldn't it? It has to be something implemented easily, quickly and with little effort. Otherwise with this state of 'final update already passed' it just isn't realistically going to happen. Spells, no that is to much overhead. More areas, thats just pushing for a problem with maximum load servers. The spawns, well spawns are not to hard to change around. With such a varied selection of creatures some of the 'range' the new areas present should be represented ideally for my idea.
Monsters when in monotone are easy to set up, you can predict which way the battle goes with strengths or weaknesses when presented. Unfortunately it also makes the battles fairly monotonous, not just for casters but everyone involved. All I can suggest is having two or three types of monsters in a single spawn. Has this been done before? Yes, did it always work, no. I've observed the key to it was a variance between those monsters with saves and immunitys. A strong willed one with high will but low reflex and/or fortitude, with his nice friend the gentlemen with a gut of iron but was either weak willed or slow of movement. The next key to the situation would be those immunitys, weak willed but immune to mind spells defeats the point self evidently. Now of course boss monsters are different, they lead a hord of problem makers. Exception not the rule falls into play there.
So is the editing of a few areas, to add in some variable spawns to unreasonable to ask? I don't think it really is. The new dead/wild magic areas wouldn't need to be touched, but the live magic ones perhaps could be adjusted a bit. So long really as a spawn cannot be wiped out by a single attack from any given class but at the same time it can be damaged as a whole, more people are happy.
Anyway I really don't have anything else to say on this subject. Quick two line review.
Problem: Monsters suffering from all or nothing when involving casters.
Solution: Varied spawns, allowing some volatile magic to work its wonders but not wiping out an entire spawn at once.
Hind sight, how I wish it was more forward thinking. Been handy to know what I have observed up till now about six months ago.
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Varying the spawns as much as the party going to fight them...Interesting , but the problem from that is something I don't understand and would need you , or Dorg, or Chongo or someone that does to explain it to me.
Im guessing, that since on the one hand AI is involved and on the other it is not; that monsters of the same level as a PC are much weaker?
Not sure this has anything to due with anything...but could that be a factor in your solution?
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cr level of a monster isnt always pc level of the character
a monster could have a cr level of 25 and have a skill the player had at level 10 or vice versa
i think what your saying is when placing spawns and this would take some work not exactly sure how much for chongo is to go into each spawn sets attributes and adjust them to have varied abilities and skills for the group
much like when you have a varied party of lots of skills
a group a giants or whatever, you will always have that one giant who is just an inkling smarter or one who is a half step faster then another
ive been dabbling in the toolset and found the tweak wizard for spawns, so im sure if i can find it and only being a dabbler ,chongo can make it look like he has his eyes closed when giving a nudge here and a bum leg there
but then again maybe if casters had not turned into one man solo machines with invis and such trapsing all over there wouldnt have been need
even in PnP an epic mage didnt go around by himself unless it was for research
think about elminster for example
if he wasnt in shadowdale smoking his pipe and making his presence known to stave off zhent attacks
he was plane walking, or looking for that new recipe for pie
or whatever came of interest to him for that given fortnight
balance can be seen in many lights
perhaps its time to restore old bridges and get a new view
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That is another thing Falon: I am well aware that the few in this case has ruined it for the all. This post was firstly an expression of a feeling. The second feeling I have is frustration at this concept.
I can't solo. I'm scared out of my wits of Rhynn dying. I..forgive me..suck at combat enough as it is without spells being changed and all of the immunities I see when I examine someone.
So Yeah, long and short...Im also frustrated that this type of balance needed to be put in in the first place...
On the other hand...I'm not sure , honeslty, if the players have graduated from needing this , or if any laxation would bring another wave of solo machines with invis.
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Creature balance has never been something that I'm very good at. I've only created a handful of creatures in my time here, and most of them were either non-hostile NPCs or used for quest purposes. Only two that I can think of are things that a character will combat, and those are just slightly more difficult versions of what already existed.
I know that there are a ton of new creatures in 3.01. I think some of the old ones got tweaked. I honestly have no idea which were and which weren't. I also know that some existing areas have received updated spawn design/layout, though I again do not know which in particular. Definitely questions for Chongo.
I will say from personal experience in PnP gameplay (aaaaages ago) that pure casters, especially arcane casters, were always support classes. Sometimes that support was buffs to the melee party members, sometimes it was tossing out a summons to distract the enemies, sometimes it was helping to whittle away at the enemies and sometimes it was to provide the "I win" scenario. It all depends on the situation. And yes, I'd agree that NWN does not provide the depth of spell choices that PnP gaming does, nor does it permit a more creative use of the ones it does have.
Lastly, constructive commentary, even if it's criticism, is not likely to get anyone "in trouble". The key is remaining constructive and respectful, just like every other post in the community should be. :)
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Sorry Dorg; I as I often do let paranoia get the better of me there :). I think I'm actually more lamenting than directly critisizing.
But yes, Dorg something you stated stuck out really well:
Casters are in NWN, a support class without enough hardcoded spells to play their PNP (Layo to me is closer to PNP than NWN) roles properly.
The only way to solve this one however seems to be on GM quests, where the casters have to say "I want to do [insert spell actually in pnp here] and leave it to the GM to determine if it is indeed possible]. This gets back to a post I've made a while ago about consistancy and opens a whole other can of gummy worms (It wasnt THAT Bad...).
I don't know how to solve the problem:
Very basically:
I want diversity in my spells. I want my spells to work. I don't want my only job to be casting the same defensive spells followed by the same 3-5 offensive spells that have some history of working. I don't want to give up playing Rhynn because the RP exceeds this mechanics frustration
Solution:
Fight less RP More? Attend RP heavy quests only? Stop Adventuring? See if things can be changed to favor the things I and others are looking for?
.....?
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Tricky subject, really. Spamming four spells does indeed stink. Moreover, it's true that, for whatever reasons, some folks are more savvy at combat than others.
If Steel can ever get the Dread Blade magic seminars put together (silly mages not being available or not willing to teach or philosophically disagreeing with Steel :p), Rhynn might want to show up.
Seriously, though, they key is having different monsters, not just within spawns, but different enemy types with different weaknesses. Not just mental (will save) weaknesses, or weak fortitude, or low reflex, but damage type weakness, movement speed weaknesses, high/low AC, low/high damage dealers, and high/low HP. You can find these sorts of variances in numerous enemies, from low HP but magically powerful illithid to low AC but high damage dealing bugbears. The issue comes as mentioned before when the same four spells kills the bugbears and the illithids. The point of having weaknesses is to create a need for different strategies. The beauty of playing a wizard is that they are often very versatile in terms of damage dealing... but why use your versatility if you don't have to, or worse, can't?
This works directly into the problem with evocation. Of course some enemies are going to shrug off or be able to dance past area effect damage spells. The way to make evocationists useful again, then, is not simply to lower reflex saves, but really to examine the weaknesses of the enemies. Add fire vulnerability, or bludgeoning vulnerability to an enemy that is otherwise very powerful and you suddenly have not only a way to defeat the enemy without resorting to the "Spam 4" but you also get parties who study their enemies to discover the enemy weaknesses.
Chongo (and others who have designed creatures for LAyo) showcases this effort in some of his monster designs. Obviously, the cold-based creatures have fire vulnerability. But he also plays with slashing/bludgeoning/piercing vulnerability, and even some magic damage type (isaac's) immunity and resistance. This sort of immunity/weakness balance is particularly important with high-epic CR creatures, who are going to have mind immunities and True Sight. Think about it. Most high-level PC mages walk around with True Sight up 90% of the time. Why would a monster as powerful or more powerful than the PC mage not also maintain TS if they are capable of doing so? And you can't say a high level NPC fighter-type couldn't have it, since most of the time the high level fighter-types are paired with high level casters who could cast in on them.
Creatures types with different sorts of unique vulnerabilities make evocationists more useful. They can use different damage-type spells depending on the enemy weakness.
Of course, the balance here is giving a creature a weakness that makes the creature defeatable in a unique way, while at the same time making sure the weakness isn't such a liability that the creature is completely owned by it. Think of the vampire myths and how even the smallest bit of sunlight turned a vampire to dust. That sort of weakness is an extreme liability, entirely exploitable.
How do balancers deal with this? I'll use an example from one of Chongo's designs. The shackled ettins in the Thunder Peaks have some serious slashing/piercing/bludgeoning (basically all physical damage) vulnerability. However, they also have a large number of HP. So while it's fairly easy to do large amounts of damage to them, they don't get killed in two hits. Moreover, they use varied weapons (fire axes, poison spears, etc.) and special attacks that makes fighting them unpredictable and not just a time-consuming bash-fest that you know you'll win.
So if we're talking about changing high-level monsters so that high-level casters aren't forced to be buff monkeys or use the Spam 4, then we are talking about adding unique weaknesses to the monsters. This also forces mages to carefully consider their spells. In the case of sorcerers, they have to choose if they even want to go into battle with a creature they may not have the means to deafeat, or, even better, to be more well rounded in their adventuring skills, so that they may provide support in some other way than attack and buff spells.
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You know, this is taking it a little off topic, but for that matter you fighters have it bad too.
walk up. Wack. Walk up , smash, walk up hit...
That R Not Be Fun >_>;
Milty: Really good post. And if you Put your merc thing at a time I can get to and Ill try to attend :) I love having Rhynn discussing things in seminar fashion
PS: You can get slashing Bludgeon etc with magic? *Durr n00b*
About your True sight thing: Thats a pet peeve, really so now I'm going to go into my personal views. Yes Milton you're right. However, if they're casting True Seeing, its very simple. If I cast a spell Breech or a MO's D at them (MOridiwhatever Disjunction) I want to see that True Seeing come off, not still be on them anyway. True seeing as a dispellable spell a monster has /casts ...That's fine, reasonable, understandable.
True seeing hard coded and undispellable on a skin? No. No No no. No. Sorry. No.
>_> Adding a REALLY personal sentiment: I think someone with epic spell focus in illusion should be able to trump a spell that can be cast by level 12 wizards/sorcs and level 5ish clerics.
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My two cents:
Rhynn is right Evocation is useless at higher levels. Empowered firebrand? Zippo, Empowered Chain Lightning? High level monsters laugh at my spellcaster. Oh it works great on anything that gives out 1 XP... and I don't know how weak monsters are that give 1 XP but it has to be pretty weak, compared to character level.
And I'm not high enough level to cast the 4 spells that work. So, buff buff buff, poke em with a sword...
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Also, I forgot to mention this, but it goes along with what Dorg said about support roles.
Area of effect spells (the mainstay of Evokers) are not meant to obliterate or even just kill the enemy unless the enemy is very weak. Area of effect spells are designed to soften a group of enemies. They are literally the artillery of the magic world. AoE spells function just like catapults and ballistae in medieval warfare. They are used to take down enemy defenses (walls, etc.), and to scatter or weaken the enemy in field campaigns ("field campaign" means not attacking or defending a fortress/city), so that the main force of soldiers could finish the job. Artillery alone couldn't/can't take a city or win a field battle on its own. The main fighting force always has to finish the job. I could go into some of the strategies used, but that would take too long. Suffice it to say, if you expect AoE spells to do the work of the artillery and the foot-soldiers, you'll be sadly disappointed.
Again, another reason why mages are smart to learn how to do more than chuck spells if they want to be more than a bump on a log after they toss the intial artillery attack.
Buff, buff, buff, poke 'em with a sword is what all warriors do (magically inclined or otherwise), and ultimately what always has to be done to win the hard battles. A mage that learns how to switch between spells and sword poking is a wise mage indeed, not a weak mage.
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Yeah Milty but theres a difference between softening everyone up and seeing pretty lights flash and nothing take any damage.Ever.
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Setting SR and DR aside and simply looking at reflex saves, and more importantly, Evasion, since it's this feat that prevents many AoE spells from doing any damage, I can point to numerous AoE spells that are not subject to reflex saves. Of course, many of them don't produce as much potential damage as the reflex-based AoE's do, and many of them are in the School of Necromancy, not Evocation. Still, such spells as Ice Storm or Horizikaul's Boom are virtually guaranteed to do damage (very few enemies have DR verses sonic and there is no save versus Ice Storm), and while they do considerably less damage than a delayed blast fireball, they are still capable of damaging multiple opponents.
Two points then:
1) If you rely on AoE to make a living, then creatures with Evasion and high saves will always be your bane. But you are not without recourse.
2) Be versatile.
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One comment on the True Seeing ability thing...
The key problem there is that Bioware didn't include anything that would either approximate a complete (or near complete) immunity to illusions for those insanely high-CR nasties (demons, etc.), nor did they include anything that some underground dwellers possess in the form of "tremor sense" or something similar, meaning they don't need to "see" to detect and target in on movement.
Those are the two main reasons why some creatures have True Seeing as a permanent ability, and that should never be dispellable. Also, the ability to hide/sneak/become invisible should never be foolproof in all situations, IMHO.
Speaking of dispelling, that can be one very effective way of weakening a target or a group of targets. Dispel, Spell Breach, Mordenkainen's Disjunction...While not doing any damage (well, possibly in the case that they have CON buffs active), they can make a target "softer" and easier to kill. I also find counterspelling is a good, effective way to help out a party facing casters. Again, while not doing direct damage, you're effectively giving your party a boost by removing some bite from the attackers.
Alright, so that was more than one comment... :\
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That is a good idea: But why is it that when I cast Dispell , I still cant use illusions on them, I know because its hard coded. Are you saying its because you're using True Seeing to represent more than one thing? Some things that SHOULD enver be dispelled, but arent implimented are also portrayed as "True seeing"
Suggestion: Change true seeing to the following
See Invisibility + Ultravision + 10 To Spot Checks + ___ against Mind Spells and/or Illusions
(I know you can get immunities to spell schools through Shadow sheild. is an increased but not full immunity possible?)
I've seen other servers change true seeing to something like this, and always wondered why we didnt.
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My main problem with the spell system we have on the server is how enemy spellcasters seem to have unlimited castings/day... something that not even a lvl 40 ultra-epic PC can do. I remember at the Battle of Stone where we had almost driven off the invasion force, then a major lag spike hit us all, which mysteriously did not affect the tiefling sorceresses' ability to cast missiles. Needless to say, over the course of the next 3-5 minutes, Bjornigar and friends just stood there motionless while around 2000 missiles spewed forth from all of 2-3 sorceresses. Had their casting abilities been truly balanced, they would have gotten off 10 tops and we would have all survived their pathetic attempts to enter melee. Stone would never have been rubble. 10,000 little deep gnomes would still be alive today.
My next biggest gripe is with NPC creature balance. Looking around at all the deep dwarves in Prantz, I really would like to know where they got all this uber gear which gives them immunity to mind effects, sneak attacks, poison, disease, paralyzation, death attacks, true seeing and a constant regeneration effect on them. If I as a player ever stumbled across an item that bestowed any ONE of these effects, I know full well that it would be taken away from me in the name of balance.
Third, I have never found material components on the corpse of an enemy caster who cast spells with required components. It's pretty annoying when players have to spend three consecutive feats for an ability that every NPC seems to be born with innately.
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Dispel does nothing against creature properties, clearly. Some creatures, IMHO, should have True Seeing permanently, others should have a way to detect movement of the invisible, others should simply have very high resistance (or immunity) to illusion. But since we don't have all of those, mechanically, the closest approximation is True Seeing. Mind-affecting isn't just specific to illusions. It's more relevant to Enchantment, really.
As to why we've never changed True Seeing? Honestly, I don't know, though it would likely throw things off a bit at this point, as things have been designed with True Seeing being what it is. I'm not sure it's fair though to give sneaking such a boost by that, since people use sneaking to walk around out in the open. And yeah, that's a problem with how sneaking works in NWN, which is why I think True Seeing works as it does for non-invisible hidden characters.
Any change to True Seeing though would not affect creature properties though (I'm pretty sure), only the spell. They work through different mechanisms.
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My main problem with the spell system we have on the server is how enemy spellcasters seem to have unlimited castings/day... something that not even a lvl 40 ultra-epic PC can do. I remember at the Battle of Stone where we had almost driven off the invasion force, then a major lag spike hit us all, which mysteriously did not affect the tiefling sorceresses' ability to cast missiles. Needless to say, over the course of the next 3-5 minutes, Bjornigar and friends just stood there motionless while around 2000 missiles spewed forth from all of 2-3 sorceresses. Had their casting abilities been truly balanced, they would have gotten off 10 tops and we would have all survived their pathetic attempts to enter melee. Stone would never have been rubble. 10,000 little deep gnomes would still be alive today.
My next biggest gripe is with NPC creature balance. Looking around at all the deep dwarves in Prantz, I really would like to know where they got all this uber gear which gives them immunity to mind effects, sneak attacks, poison, disease, paralyzation, death attacks, true seeing and a constant regeneration effect on them. If I as a player ever stumbled across an item that bestowed any ONE of these effects, I know full well that it would be taken away from me in the name of balance.
Third, I have never found material components on the corpse of an enemy caster who cast spells with required components. It's pretty annoying when players have to spend three consecutive feats for an ability that every NPC seems to be born with innately.
Um...
Creatures still have spell lists and use/day feats/abilities, and that works just as it does for PCs. They are however immune to client and network lag, so what they can do under such circumstances and what a PC can do will be quite different. They don't have any unlimited spells per day though.
The NPCs in Prantz are monks...very high-level and elite monks. So a lot of this "gear" is just their natural abilities:
Purity of Body: Level 5 - Immunity to non-magical disease
Diamond Body: Level 11 - Immunity to poisons
Diamond Soul: Level 12 - Spell Resistance
Empty Body: Level 18 - 50% concealment
Perfect Self: Level 20 - Immunity to Mind Affecting and 20/+1 DR
As for the others: You're wrong if you stumbled upon them they'd be taken away. Permanent regeneration items exist in-game, Death magic immunity items exist, etc.
Incidentally, these monks were written to be, and approved as, extremely tough and formidable opponents. Besides, you should not be picking fights in Prantz! ;)
Lootable components...did you notice you also can't take their shoes, clothes and other equipment? Come on, this is such a silly argument and is based solely on how loot generation works and nothing else.
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Yeah dorg, it probably wouldnt effect the properties ;) But instead you could give them +___ to spot skill, ultravision and see invisibility instead of TS! :-)
Back to the original topic, is there anything that can be done to add a diversity to spells worth using?
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The problem is that mages should be able to do everything themselves, however it shouldn't be impossible for them to do everything alone either. It is pretty hard to handle since a mage could potentially go all out on any spawn at any time, however this is a very dangerous tactics since you will be pretty much out untill you can rest again. I think there isn't a trivial solution to this since, sure giving everything different saves they are good at will just make the soloing mages spellbook look a bit more varied and ready for everything, which in this case is that some things might save against the fireball but the horrid wilting takes them appart.
However this update have made a balanced party more needed than ever, this is fairly new to most since you in the past were relying heavily on the casters for backup fire, you needed them to take out a huge portion of the spawn in order to make your chances better. Now mages are more the part of the group that stands back and tries to focus their spells where they are needed, directing them to the right target which is pretty hard in combat when everyone is running all over.
So mages have been reduced a fair bit in worth now it seems if you look at the damage and kill output you get as a mage. Sure some melees might tune in and point out that,hey you have a spell that does 20d6 damage or outright killing a few things in one blow and we can never get near that. Well sure, but a pure mage wont get near dishing out 30+ damage every round as long as he is standing.
However if you are outside the no magic zone the fighter would be very poor off without a mage and/or cleric things have a lot of icky abilities you want to ward against so you don't get killed within the first seconds of battle because you got leveldrained and things started hitting you for a lot of damage with no healing in sight((This is just one example of what could happen to a fighter)).
This is mostly covering the mechanics part of things, since that was what it was about at first. The problem is that this collides with the RP aspect of things. Because as people point out most epic mages spend their time planewalking and generally doing strange things like that. However this isn't really possible here without a DM present, most of the things mages really do aren't really possible without DM involvement.
So in the end mages are left as magical arteliry unless the DM allows them to do more, which might be a slippery slope since there aren't really any standarts as to what mages can't and can do right now. So making it up to the DMs alone can create a lot of I-could-do-that-then-but-can't-do-it-now claims. However setting standarts is also quite hard unless we simply just put them down by the d20 books for now and then just scrap it when the handbook actually comes out.
The problem then would be that you can't actually use them in combat at any rate unless there is a DM around, so you will still have problems there. Another thing is that people might end up crying unfair because some might get more attention to do things than others and so on. Therefore most casters are relying on their nwn spellbook for their spells and nothing else.
This limits the caster a lot since you basicly got ye olde damage spells and buff spells and that is it. But well you can do funny things with those too, however it doesn't really show some of the magic schools, as I assume we still have them, from their right side. Abjuration isn't just Dispell-breach-banish-(a few protective spells here) it is a whole range of protective spells according to the d20 books, what it will be in the "real" layo(if it will be) I don't know but still.
So my point being, right now magic is rather undefined and it will probably be for some time which makes it hard for people to find uses for it since what goes one quest might not go another. And on combat we are stuck with the old spells which aren't all that flexible but still works if used at the right time and on the right creature.
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i did like milty's analogy of aoe being the softening siege form
if we were in an army and a fireball came erupting out of nowhere followed by another shock and awe kind of spell
guess what morale would take a hit until someone happened by to stabilize it
your nice little army would be looking around and be worried about being the next shish kabob when al the sudden a dwarf comes into view to cleave them in half with his axe
maybe this is all good to help us not rely on just ourselves and have to keep our friends handy
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Righto. I'll try to help with questions where I can, that was a lot of reading though and it has bounced all over.
First, epic mage weakness. Put the DC chart next to the saving throw chart and you'll understand where the problems are. It's wacky at the ~20 levels how much of an advantage the DC chart has, and it's wacky at ~32 to see it shift. Rhynn, you're a high level mage in NWN. Dems da breaks.
Most high level casters give up on DC spells except for enemies they know to be soft in the area for some odd reasons. A lot go the pure buffing route. A lot take no-save based spells. A lot turn into frogger tanks in my experience. Ask Alantha or Lin'da. And bear in mind these aren't the aforementioned 'maxed DC/ bad for the rest of us' mages. I've seen their character sheets... they're lower DC then you. But they know which ones they can effect and what they can be doing when they don't have control over the situation.
Regarding evocation concerns in particular... you know, Layo has done a fair bit to give evocation a plus up, they've lifted some damage ceilings, made some spells pretty fierce... but it's still going to end up disappointing in the epics, it's just the way evocation goes. Monster HP outweighs the damage scales on evo spells, and we're a moderate difficulty server to boot. No crits! What has this led to on epic creatures? They all need something else to provide moderate damage! Rogues and evasion. Dunno, it's not like that in all cases, but a lot of creatures of Layo hit the wicket on one of those evasion classes. Now, that said, Lin'da was quite good at wrecking havoc with major evocation direct damage spells, she was a few points off max DC, and she knew where to use it.
Regarding TS, I've always like the +20 spot/listen as well. Better for PvP that way too. But, let's not go there, it's not all that bad as is, and facing the facts, there's a whole server of monsters built up around the exisiting TS, so even if we weren't in closing stages of development, it'd be unbalancing to adjust it.
Regarding new creatures and old. Here's what happened. Old creature areas that were farmed due to creatures developed in a soft saving throw manner for mass kills were changed. The exisiting creatures weren't changed, but generally speaking, at least one new creature type was added to require at least some melee prowess in the mix, and low melee prowess at that. Some old creatures were altered to take fear immunity off of them since that's the major bug with weird. New creatures were designed differently and off of what's in my head on saving throws, so yeah, you're not going to see 95% success rates on a wail most of the time. And yeah, most of them have a slight weakness here and there amongst many strengths.
Regarding all of Milt's comments... dead on.
Regarding cookie cutter spell sheets... *waves head back and forth*. Yeah, on any server that's NWN that you go to, you're going to find the cookie cutter design laid out and waiting for you based on what NWN provided us with. Then you're going to see slight variations based on how the individual server balanced/ overbalanced/ underbalanced the spells they made changes to. There are ways around it, but they're never quite as effective. You usually have to max DC the build for some of the other spell schools/ types. And on top of that you have to accept that you aren't going to have the same effects. It doesn't mean they're not cool or not useful, it just means you have to really tweak some standard building procedures. It's the same for melee's. Just because a dual dagger wielding melee isn't going to do the crits the scimitar weaponmaster can doesn't mean you can't build him well. It does mean he's not going to be the easy build. It does mean you're going to have to strive for excellence in an area other then damage output, but you sure as hell can make him good. Same thing goes for casters. And hey, I wish there was more variation in NWN as well. I wish we had monster lvl 9 spells in each spell school. I wish I could mass polymorph enemies into chickens as a transmuter. I wish I could make an archer that would do as much damage as my melee's. But it's not the way it works, and it takes striving for excellence in other areas while accepting your inabilities to keep your head up.
Regarding Prantz, don't make the Rael Chosen or the All'ra the basis for new creature comparison. It's the most powerful and largest city in the world. It was overtaken by a vastly powerful foe. It has a lot of very scary history surrounding what you're seeing. Definitely don't base things on the All'ra.
You know, it all gets pretty humorous after a while with balance. One person is whispering in your ear that xxx was too easy, another is whispering that it's too hard. Most of their input is situational and based on the party they were with. People fail to realize the impact of groups a lot of the time in their perception of balance. And I'm mostly addressing other folks here, not you Lynn. When you add up the value of spells from every caster type in one group, balance goes out the window. Epic bards, clerics, mages in one group? It's an enormous plus-up on character sheet stats. I personally feel that on some servers, and perhaps Layo as well, GM's have initially made mistakes in their perception of balance as they find groups like these having such an easy time. So they balance to that scale which makes things wildly hard for all other group scenarios. Places where it's exceedingly clear that it was balanced for groups consisting of all brackets of caster and all brackets of melee. And this often ends up being punitive for the rest of the server, and makes these regions even more capitalized upon by the large all-powerful groups. I can say with pretty full confidence that I didn't really build anything like this. There's one region that takes a pretty kickin' party, but I certainly try to avoid this sort of thing. Raven, the old Hawaii group... there's no real fair way to balance for them. There are ways to make it fun, but it has to be fair to the rest of the server who can't organize into groups of 9 that are well organized by class. Anyhow, that was addressing another subject that has come along these general lines that I thought I'd address. Suffice it to say that this sort of thing is not the goal or purpose of the team.
A lot of folks are pointing to the update to say things were taken away from casters. It's wrong. If you could see all my PM's and all my posts, I'm am vehemently against detracting from a class. You empower other underpowered classes or character types, you don't steal from a certain class. Everyone should have their niche. Now, this could be said for spells as well Lynn, but it's hard, it's a long process, there's a server built up around what we have had for years, and we're not rewriting the spellbook. And on top of this all, the update introduced regions or themes that weren't necessarily favoring the caster classes. Like the Thunder Peaks. And of course, there's an outcry that the world has been rebalanced to be punitive to casters. And this is where I get confused. Numbers haven't changed. All the creatures casters grew accustomed to being able to deal with are the same except for the removal of the fear exploit in many cases. Sure, in the areas where we had pretty standard 20k per 10 minute weird/wail fests, there have been additions. But the creatures aren't changed. There's just one little addition to promote a group (of 2) and say 'don't weird/wail spam this place'. So things are the same they've been. The new areas are more 50%ish on DC's. There are immunities and weaknesses. But this outcry is far from holding any water. Nothing has been dealt with punitively. There's just more for other types of groups. The empowering of something else without detracting from another. If anyone has complaint with that... I dunno, I guess they really need to be the center of focus for 100% of in-game situations. Again, this is a bit off your topic, I'm just wrapping up a lot of folks concerns on balance. But here's the wrap-around. This update occurred right around when a lot of mages were nearing that magic DC/ST shift due to their levels. So they've learned to blame the update somehow. Dunno.
Honest truth is that on most servers I've played on, I see a recurring theme. Mages quit at around level 30. Some stick with it, but a large number of them quit. And it's the DC/ST change, they're used to a certain ability in gameplay and they are unable to adapt in a manner that keeps them interested. And there are definitely ways to adapt and be a vastly helpful addition to any group, it's just up to the player if they're happy with that or not...
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I don't know about epic mages spending most of their time doing strange things (othr than 9th levels spells, which are in themselves strange due to their sheer power and impressive visualizations). I wonder why anyone would think that epic mages are only concerened with epic magic and wierd planar manifestations. Why wouldn't epic mages (or epic characters in general), be interested in more concrete study and advancement? For instance, hiring a personal army, or becoming the baron (*coughs* T'ak*coughs*) of some outpost/city.
But anyhow, that's not really what I wanted to look at.
So in the end mages are left as magical arteliry unless the DM allows them to do more...
It's so very hard for me to agree to this generalization. There is so much more a mage can do for a party, from scouting to disabling traps (without a pixie) to outright melee fighting and more. Sure, a "pure" caster might have a hard time with any of those things, but that's the disadvantage of heavy specialization.
Perhaps that's what this is really all about: Specialization.
Certainly, you need some specialization by which to make a living. However, the more specialized you become in one field, the more useless you become in other fields. Over-specialize, and you'll be totally awesome at one thing, and totally suck at everything else. Spread out too much and you'll never be great at anything.... but then again, at least you'll be able to do some of everything.
The classic "balanced" party has one highly specialized character-type from the four major DnD adventuring assests: Combat, Skills, Arcane magic, and Divine magic. However, what happens if you lose one of the party members? The whole party falls apart because no one else is able to pick up the slack.
The better adventuring party has members that can do a little bit of everything. If the healer goes down, someone else can take their place. Perhaps that person won't be quite as efficient as the designated healer, but it's better than having nothing. You don't have to be a master in a field to be useful in it.
Now, is that saying that "pure" casters, or "pure" rogues, or whatever you want to call the highly specialized variant of a class is a poor character choice? Not at all. Rather, those that choose to play such character types need to be aware that if they go that route, they will excell in a few situations, and be mostly obsolete in the rest. In other words, don't complain that your character is obsolete if you made him/her that way...
Now, in the case of Rhynn, and the complaint about her power as an illusionist being null, that's different. It's different in the sense that because illusion is her specialization, it should be the one thing she rocks at, even if she sucks at everything else. And she feels that with so many creatures having TS, even her specialization is useless. And that's a problem we have in strong part due to game mechanics, which is laid out in detail above by Dorg.
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So Chongo, you say this is the way things get when you hit a certain level. You've posted lots about it happening BEFORE the update but I didn't realise the impact until just now, and I have gone to blame things that shouldn't have been blamed and for that I do apologize.
The simple question is this:
Are there things I/Rhynn can do without turning into a Buff Monkey Casting the Spam 4? If so, show me/tell me? Or Find a Cool In Game Way Of Figuring it out besides going in and dying 200000 times?
if you want to start something alla what 8bit was doing with the "How classes should work" Seminars I'd support that, but Something you need to understand and Im pretty sure you do: A lot of people come here to RP and Don't know jack about DCs and ACs And Charts and stuff. I know I don't
Milty: Ohh this is going to be interesting when In Character it finally dawns on Rhynn that what she's done was focus so hard on her illusions that she's sort of indept for her level in everything else. Can someone say Mage Rage?
But thank you, for understanding what I'm saying. Thank you So So So Much!
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Well, you're an illusionist with a pretty darn high DC as I recall from spying on your sheet, so I'd say that your character is fairly 'built' around the concept of the spam 4. I can't exactly fight the choices in specializing that you've made.
You could learn how to counter-spell. That'd be a nifty trick to learn and learn to do well. You could also perhaps learn the spells that are based around no-saves or perhaps ones that are very 'active' group oriented magics. You see very few mages that actually actively clean up the mess of enemy spells that are well within their capability to clean with let's say... a gust of wind? I'm just throwing out ideas that are different from the norm of 'me sorceror, me charge, me weird, me hit-monkeys clean up, they stunned'. And hey, there's nothing wrong with the spam 4. Thunderclap works. Wail works. Weird works. *shrugs* There are a lot of funky things a mage can do and they are the most variable and most fun of class types. They are 'the class' to maintain an individual's interest. And regarding effectiveness, you're weird DC is actually high enough to last in ability for quite some time unless I'm mistaken and it wasn't 37ish at lvl 24. That's fairly maxed, and should work just great for you for some time. Again, it's your focus of specialization.
Try experimenting while with a group and you probably won't have to worry about dying. Read your spellbook again. Try new spells. Break the mold yourself.
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Yeah but I'm more an illusionist because the concept sounded cool, not because of any sort of power. I don't know how to make a successful build. I didn't build around the spam four, because I started playing Rhynn and got to level 20 not even knowing what spells were coming next because I never read the NWN handbook. :-P
I think Im going to look through what I have. My problem has ceased to be with the Mechanics and fighting part of it...
What I was refering to, what Milty I think was refering to is GM quests, where any figment, glamour, anything illusion wise to trick the NPCs is nulled, because the GMs put true seeing on all or most of their main characters....Its kind of a bummer for someone in an RP sense, for a character who'se life is wrapped around illusion
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Okay, your phrasing confused me then.
To the RP sense of it all, at a certain point you need to find the tempo of each quest. I think in every quest there's going to be a pace you need to find on what leeway you have to force your own ideas when there are, let's say, eight other individuals that can potentially be doing the same.
I think the issue with magic, is that it's so wildly variable in the minds of each caster playing individual. For example, you have a evocationist, a diviner, a transmuter, and an illusionist in a quest. There is a pivotal point where the group is in a hurry to find the solution to the magical trap they are in. All 4 very different mage types try to force-emote. They say they are going to do xxx in their xxx speciality of xxx school of magic. And their 4 solutions are wildly different, and only one meshes with the course of the quest. 3 of those casters are going to be let down that they can't control the weave in that instance. Or maybe... they communicate and most aren't let down because they find a viable solution, together.
Compounding this issue is the idea of the 'epic' caster. Someone that has focused for so long in their one school of magic that the feats they have accomplished are godly in nature. It is often an outright offense when their ability in magic is clashed with several other individuals attempting to do the same thing on a quest.
Magic is pretty abstract. Everyone has a different solution set. Sometimes many solutions work, but again, it's a GM trying to move a story forward in the interest of everyone playing on the quest, and furthermore ensuring that there is a buffer whereby one individual's actions can end the quest for all.
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"It is often an outright offense when their ability in magic is clashed with several other individuals attempting to do the same thing on a quest."
laughs
Yeah Chongo! I just have to remember, and catch myself on a good enough day to remember For the love of GOD Remember: Rhynn's Frustration doesn't always have to be mine!
Some days, are just wildly better than others. Thanks for the time you've taken out to explain things in about three different ways. :)
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Third, I have never found material components on the corpse of an enemy caster who cast spells with required components. It's pretty annoying when players have to spend three consecutive feats for an ability that every NPC seems to be born with innately.
Lootable components...did you notice you also can't take their shoes, clothes and other equipment? Come on, this is such a silly argument and is based solely on how loot generation works and nothing else.
Either a spellcaster has the three eschew-materials feats, or they have spell components.
Ionnarin would seem to be making the point that NPC spellcasters don't have either.
"Shoes, clothes and other equipment" are not spell components.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Maybe all the NPCs do have taken the three eschew feats...?
Even among caster PCs, those are without doubt the most popular feats to pick.
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Dorgonath was simply making the analogy that while yes, you will never find the spell components to the exact spells the creatures are casting on their corpses, neither will you find that spiffy sonic damage dagger that rogue is obviously hitting me with on its corpse.
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That is inaccurate. It's not a limitation of the engine but a Layonara restriction of game balance. When NPCs die and the Harvester marks their souls shortly before they respawn at the local NPC bindstone, he takes out his bitterness about the long-lived adventurers by looting the corpses before we can get to them, and occasionally being kind enough to put an iron double axe in place of a mithril acid short sword. He's tricky like that.
:P
(Edit- Well, post edited while I was typing, but the joke remains! ;))
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Either a spellcaster has the three eschew-materials feats, or they have spell components.
Ionnarin would seem to be making the point that NPC spellcasters don't have either.
"Shoes, clothes and other equipment" are not spell components.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
Of course they're not. That that wasn't the point. There's actually 2 points here:
1) Nobody can know whether or not the NPCs have the Eschew feats or not.
2) If we were going to be finding spell components, then we should also be finding shoes, clothes, rings, pocket lint, food, water, and anything else such a thing would have on his person at the time.
I'm sorry, but this whole argument just sounds like the "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist" mentality. The problem with that is that the game represents maybe 10-15% of what would really be in the world if Layonara were a real world. The reasons for not being able to see/touch/hear/smell/taste that other 85-90% are many.
Now, having said that, if you guys really want to see these things dropping in lieu of things like gold and useful items, then I'm sure that can be arranged. Of course, then you'll have to deal with increased lag, as everyone ignores the piles of pocket lint in the creature drops. ;)
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I remember in Baldurs Gate, EVERY creature dropped what it was equipped with... which led to there being over 1000 suits of armor you didnt want laying around, along with weapons, useless rings... even the occassion boot.
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Apologies for belabouring this point, and I appreciate that having a conversation face-to-face would be much easier than by posts, but hey, you're over there and I'm over here.
Either a spellcaster has the three eschew-materials feats, or they have spell components.
Ionnarin would seem to be making the point that NPC spellcasters don't have either.
"Shoes, clothes and other equipment" are not spell components.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
Of course they're not. That that wasn't the point. ...
My point was that spell components from a fallen spellcaster would be useful, and not in the same category as the aforementioned personal miscellania. Ibidem the pocket lint.
I'm sorry, but this whole argument just sounds like the "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist" mentality. ...
Actually, its the "if I have to go through the grief of getting spell components or spend three feats on eschew-materials, then everyone should go through the grief of getting spell components or flash me their three eschew-materials skill badges so I feel better" mentality. ;)
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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I remember in Baldurs Gate, EVERY creature dropped what it was equipped with... which led to there being over 1000 suits of armor you didnt want laying around, along with weapons, useless rings... even the occassion boot.
I use to sell them. Didn't everyone? :D
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You know, this has gotten a little off track. To bring it back on track I'm going to bring up another slight peeve of mine, and maybe someone can help me with it. I've identified a lot of my problems with this in the days I had this post with PMs given to me (Thanks Milty and Chongo!) but there is still one thing I would like to question
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Epic Characters...They do epic things...and for that, people know who they are...Following?
So Why is it , that 'epic NPCs' (not the named ones even, Milara, Selian, etc) Can do all of these fancy things that PCs couldn't even dream of or try...but no one's ever heard of them? I understand quest progression...but it kind of miffs me when some random nobody from some quest that will either die in the end or isn't plot eccencial can do things that no PC will ever be able to directly accomplish....but their name isn't even on the maps?
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Regarding new creatures and old. Here's what happened. Old creature areas that were farmed due to creatures developed in a soft saving throw manner for mass kills were changed. The exisiting creatures weren't changed, but generally speaking, at least one new creature type was added to require at least some melee prowess in the mix, and low melee prowess at that. Some old creatures were altered to take fear immunity off of them since that's the major bug with weird. New creatures were designed differently and off of what's in my head on saving throws, so yeah, you're not going to see 95% success rates on a wail most of the time. And yeah, most of them have a slight weakness here and there amongst many strengths.
Well I can only agree with you in that wail/weird was a bit too powerfull before, it is a great change that you aren't limited to those two spells as the only way to control a spawn simply by taking half or more of it out in the blink of an eye and then sitting back watching the fighters handle the rest. However this removes some crowd control the mages were used to having, which makes it hard to figure out what to do now.
Thankfully for me I have never really relied on those spells or the (in)famous spam four combo. So I have run around the world with a next to useless setup that worked great from time to time when spam four wasn't used and a little bit of melee power that hurt a few creatures backing up the melees.
However if you are not used to having a niche besides spam four you are going to have a painfull time learning. And really, most would rather not do that due to the fact that pain often leads to death which isn't all that liked because in the end that leads to the deletion of a loved character. Sure testing is fun, but when it leads to loosing something important for you, you would rather just say that the whole thing is wrong and you can't hurt anything and will die within the next short while if you try going out under these new conditions.
You know, it all gets pretty humorous after a while with balance. One person is whispering in your ear that xxx was too easy, another is whispering that it's too hard. Most of their input is situational and based on the party they were with. People fail to realize the impact of groups a lot of the time in their perception of balance. And I'm mostly addressing other folks here, not you Lynn. When you add up the value of spells from every caster type in one group, balance goes out the window. Epic bards, clerics, mages in one group? It's an enormous plus-up on character sheet stats. I personally feel that on some servers, and perhaps Layo as well, GM's have initially made mistakes in their perception of balance as they find groups like these having such an easy time. So they balance to that scale which makes things wildly hard for all other group scenarios. Places where it's exceedingly clear that it was balanced for groups consisting of all brackets of caster and all brackets of melee. And this often ends up being punitive for the rest of the server, and makes these regions even more capitalized upon by the large all-powerful groups. I can say with pretty full confidence that I didn't really build anything like this. There's one region that takes a pretty kickin' party, but I certainly try to avoid this sort of thing. Raven, the old Hawaii group... there's no real fair way to balance for them. There are ways to make it fun, but it has to be fair to the rest of the server who can't organize into groups of 9 that are well organized by class. Anyhow, that was addressing another subject that has come along these general lines that I thought I'd address. Suffice it to say that this sort of thing is not the goal or purpose of the team.
I have seen the powers expressed in a wellbalanced group where everyone knows what they are doing and everything just flows, because as most know I am part of the Raven group and we are quite decent when everyone is playing up to their best. However I have also seen what other groups can do and seen their dynamics due to not limiting my play time to be only Raven trips and such. And one thing I must say when I look at what that was like is that there is a huge difference from what you can do if you know that this person will do this and this and the other that, but still it worked before people knew how to get the creatures and get them fast before anyone got killed.
But since the upping of melees there is a bit of a gab suddenly, because before the melees asked the mages/clerics for directions and what they should do and who went in and such, but the update have made that much more dynamic, at least in the updated areas. So the melees and the casters are confused, they see their spells poofing because of SR or a save and think they have to break combat because now hell is comming to get them. And that is usually when you die because as soon as you become unfocused on what is really going on you loose control over the combat and without control over that your front and then your casters fall.
Also before people were scared to death over loosing hp because that usually meant you were loosing, since most of the time creatures were locked up somehow while you were pounding them or lying dead on the floor. However that isn't so anymore, as long as you have enough hp to actually make it out of the battle or take some more hits you aren't really in trouble because you can always heal up again after or get a potion/spell in your back.
But still this is new to most and if you don't try and risk it nothing is going to come from it, only frustration of dying to something below what you could handle before with a good spam four'er and some fighters to mop up.
A lot of folks are pointing to the update to say things were taken away from casters. It's wrong. If you could see all my PM's and all my posts, I'm am vehemently against detracting from a class. You empower other underpowered classes or character types, you don't steal from a certain class. Everyone should have their niche. Now, this could be said for spells as well Lynn, but it's hard, it's a long process, there's a server built up around what we have had for years, and we're not rewriting the spellbook. And on top of this all, the update introduced regions or themes that weren't necessarily favoring the caster classes. Like the Thunder Peaks. And of course, there's an outcry that the world has been rebalanced to be punitive to casters. And this is where I get confused. Numbers haven't changed. All the creatures casters grew accustomed to being able to deal with are the same except for the removal of the fear exploit in many cases. Sure, in the areas where we had pretty standard 20k per 10 minute weird/wail fests, there have been additions. But the creatures aren't changed. There's just one little addition to promote a group (of 2) and say 'don't weird/wail spam this place'. So things are the same they've been. The new areas are more 50%ish on DC's. There are immunities and weaknesses. But this outcry is far from holding any water. Nothing has been dealt with punitively. There's just more for other types of groups. The empowering of something else without detracting from another. If anyone has complaint with that... I dunno, I guess they really need to be the center of focus for 100% of in-game situations. Again, this is a bit off your topic, I'm just wrapping up a lot of folks concerns on balance. But here's the wrap-around. This update occurred right around when a lot of mages were nearing that magic DC/ST shift due to their levels. So they've learned to blame the update somehow. Dunno.
I don't really think it is only this, as I said before the server shifted so you actually need a balanced party, and well no offence to anyone but that was hard to get before. And if you are used to walking around in an unbalanced party then you have a hard time finding the balance where everyone use their strengths. So you will end up running around in all the old areas sighing and moaning about all the new cool areas you want to see but can't because you get kicked around there while the old huggy firegiants barely scratch you.
So you end up giving up playing because;
[list=1]
- "Well nothing new to see anyhow only areas where I die horriblely." Well this can be cured by trying again and again which would likely kill your character and make you feel even more frustrated, or you could wait and wait for a balanced party to show up, which sadly doesn't happen much these days so you become frustrated too.
- "Where are all the fighters?" Ehmm... Sorry to say but most good fighters are playing in the no magic zone because they lack someone to make them strong so they can go cut down something outside of no magic land because magic hurts fighters. So to a degree the less casters there is the more the fighters will play with themselves and their no magic.
- "The fighters have way more fun than me*pouts*, they go slaugther away alone and leaves me to do nothing, plus they get all the good stuff!"... Well again sad but true, no decent things to fight outside the no magic area makes your fighter sad and he goes to try something out himself with his other fighter friends then the mages gets sad and go home because they can't jump around as much as they used to do so they are left to sit in empty Hempstead or toss potions at the happy whackers which doesn't make a happy mage since he/she is used to casting spells all over the place.
- "No on is around to RP with or anything anymore" Again as an effect of more and more casters leaving because they can't do anything they become more and more frustrated and when there is nothing to do people leave. Sad fact but true...
Frustration leads to the worst of feeling, I have been there too. Back when the new update was released I was minutes away of quiting the server for good, especially the Raven people and Chongo heard for this and I am happy to say that they are nice and understanding people who helped me feel a little better. But deep down I was bitter because I felt my character had been reduced to nothing while everyone else got the great stuff. Now however after having played with the update for a while I have found out that my niche is actually quite usefull if I use it right and point my spells in the right direction. Even more the new rest timer helped a lot too getting a little more punch into the caster classes even after level 20 without making them into spell spam machines.
However many have yet to find their place in combat and what they can and can't do, they feel frustrated about being smacked down each time they try maybe even with the bad side effect of getting a token and thereby taking another part of the ten or fifteen step road to permanent death. So the casters feel it is their time to leave and as they do the fighters focus more and more on the new magic zone making it hard for the existing casters to actually go do something so they become frustrated too and decide that it isn't worth the wait and simply just logs to find fun another place.
I am not trying to blame anyone for anything here this isn't the fault of the update or of some people in particular, it is simply just the way things go if people forget what made the place here fun for them. I almost forgot it and left over it but I found out that even though I need more melee prowless than I did before I am still having fun going through both new and old areas with friends and the like trying to find that special thing you need, that cnr you need to get just past that step on the crafting ladder or just gain fame and true by showing new people around or showing new places to people.
My advice to people is, don't let yourself feel down over that you can't poke around with four spells in your book and someone to clean your mess, but remember that you have a whole range of spells at your disposal and a lot of friends to go out with to test that new tactic or make a succesfull tactic for getting to that special place you always wanted to see. I am looking forward to seeing more casters and so is Storold, let them show their ability to bend the weave with their best abilities and have their fighter brothers and sisters help them get to the good places :)
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So Why is it , that 'epic NPCs' (not the named ones even, Milara, Selian, etc) Can do all of these fancy things that PCs couldn't even dream of or try...but no one's ever heard of them? I understand quest progression...but it kind of miffs me when some random nobody from some quest that will either die in the end or isn't plot eccencial can do things that no PC will ever be able to directly accomplish....but their name isn't even on the maps?
Or conversely, how does the PC necromancer take over the world with his single undead summons, whereas his NPC counterpart has an army of undead? *shrugs*
That is one of the oldest paradoxes since the earliest days of the "D&D Boxed Edition", best not contemplated by us mere players.
Or, you can put it down to too much DM creativity. ;)
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You know, this has gotten a little off track. To bring it back on track I'm going to bring up another slight peeve of mine, and maybe someone can help me with it. I've identified a lot of my problems with this in the days I had this post with PMs given to me (Thanks Milty and Chongo!) but there is still one thing I would like to question
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Epic Characters...They do epic things...and for that, people know who they are...Following?
So Why is it , that 'epic NPCs' (not the named ones even, Milara, Selian, etc) Can do all of these fancy things that PCs couldn't even dream of or try...but no one's ever heard of them? I understand quest progression...but it kind of miffs me when some random nobody from some quest that will either die in the end or isn't plot eccencial can do things that no PC will ever be able to directly accomplish....but their name isn't even on the maps?
From an IC point of view:
Most of the unknown epic NPCs are in fact not unknown. They are surely less known than the plot epic NPCs, their names not used as a tool of complete fear, but nonless there ought to be stories behind them. A lore check, espeically from a bard, is the "one" way to get this information. The NPCs are very unlikely a random nobody, it's just that you (the player) is the one not knowing about them.
Besides, some types of NPCs, namely those comming from Underdark (Dark Elves, Illithids, Beholders, etc) are usually already (in pretty much all settings) already presented as powerful as "normal sub-epic characters" while still being an "almost nobody down there".
From an OOC point of view:
The bad guys are always more powerful than the good guys. No matter how powerful the good guys become, there are always someone else above them in the food chain. The simple reason is otherwise the risk of boredom. This is something that I would say all campaigns/games are suffering from: Power inflation.
With all that said, one has to consider that in quite a lot of quests, the NPCs are not of epic power. Actually, the NPCs might not be powerful at all. It's just that if one attends a quest aimed at epic characters... well... one kind of has to expect the baddies to be of epic proportions also. Take a random quest aimed more towards low/mid level (say "Pseudonym - Stand Alone Quest") and one suddenly notices the NPCs are generally rather weak to nature... :)
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With all that said, one has to consider that in quite a lot of quests, the NPCs are not of epic power. Actually, the NPCs might not be powerful at all. It's just that if one attends a quest aimed at epic characters... well... one kind of has to expect the baddies to be of epic proportions also. Take a random quest aimed more towards low/mid level (say "Pseudonym - Stand Alone Quest") and one suddenly notices the NPCs are generally rather weak to nature... :)
Even though they might not be epic, LynnJuniper's "grievance" stands, specifically if you have been on any of the aforementioned quests involving Pseudonym's Menestas protagonist.
While it may be annoying that your own spellcaster will never be able to shrink things down so small for a "Fantastic Voyage" type journey through one end of a cat and out the other, it was fun trip for the players, if not the characters. ;)
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Even though they might not be epic, LynnJuniper's "grievance" stands, specifically if you have been on any of the aforementioned quests involving Pseudonym's Menestas protagonist.
While it may be annoying that your own spellcaster will never be able to shrink things down so small for a "Fantastic Voyage" type journey through one end of a cat and out the other, it was fun trip for the players, if not the characters. ;)
ARGH! even more reasons to curse my EST schedule for not ever being awake for Pseudo's quests! I always seem to miss out on the really good ones.
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Sorcerers, combined with a level of monk, and 10 levels of RDD are crazy powerful :), thats one thing they introduced to help balance out the fun factor of casters, but that obviously does not apply here since the rules behind changing class, and taking levels in classes makes it very hard to go with the concept of powerbuilding a character.
Thats one thing that should be remembered, a lot of the characters on the server are built around RP reasoning rather then Powerbuilt cookie cutting.
I have made mistakes with Sabrissia i admit, but i still enjoy playing her for the rp aspect, fact is im a evocation specialist, and i find i cant hit anything at all with my spells so even when we enter some new areas with magic enabled, it gets mass dispelled, and it does not hit at all, especially places like that tower, cough cough.
Kinda boring walking behind melee'ers at times up those mountains, and well tanks dont wont to go anywhere else these days heh, so its ethier sit around and do nothing, RP, or walk behind a bunch of fighters healing them occassionally.
Needless to say this is why i started a new character, fora bit of a change and a class i can actually count on later on.
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to Counter myself, because I'm weird like that:
A GM, knows what his characters can do. There's less confrontation, less conversation, none of that
//I want to try this _______. Its not neccesarily mechanics and not neccesarily a spell, but I think its a good idea can I give it a go?
No, that all happens split second, in the GM's head, where there isnt a bunch of white green blue aqua text flying around rapid speed crazy.
Makes it easier for the flow of the quest; also makes it easier for the GM to know what his characters can and can't do.
I just wish that a good Lore roll would give us the general information on "Random Quest NPC" that ain't so random, and that everyone should technically have heard of atleast in passing. It'd be cool.
And yeah >_> PC Necros should so be able to raise an army of undead and attack a small city...
Seriously, I know where my greviance spouted from, and weather it was one event or a series of events I've pinpointed one of my biggest problems as a player, and I'm going to use this thread as an apology now (Since I started it HAH!)
Sorry to Chongo and the people I've quested and partied with in the past.
I have this sick, sometimes random and unjustified desire, urge, need to prove myself to myself and other people. Doing it with wits, in a game; kind of sad but true. "Hey, look, while everyone else seems unsure, I'm going to do this and save the day. To Be The Hero Is All I Ask". I guess a lot of people want to be the center of attention, but I really let it get to me on quests.. a lot. And I'm sorry. My character is built around RP, and I , without being arrogant, Can think outside the NWN box. And Often do so...without telling the rest of the party..
It's led to serious problems last year...its led to serious problems recently. But hey...the first part of getting over it is admitting its there..
So here's hoping, and while I'm at it, any suggestions of what I can do with this silly need to proove myself good/smart enough that won't take away from any one else's fun?
As for Rhynn...yeah, I put a bit too much of myself into her sometimes...I want to change, but should she in RP or should I keep playing her this way? She'll always be the angry , dry, sarcastic person she is..
But seriously...suggestions? (You can PM em or put them here I really don't mind my problem being out there, or else I wouldnt've stated it).
Sorry for the off topic rant: But I respect your input :)
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Epic Characters...They do epic things...and for that, people know who they are...Following?
So Why is it , that 'epic NPCs' (not the named ones even, Milara, Selian, etc) Can do all of these fancy things that PCs couldn't even dream of or try...but no one's ever heard of them? I understand quest progression...but it kind of miffs me when some random nobody from some quest that will either die in the end or isn't plot eccencial can do things that no PC will ever be able to directly accomplish....but their name isn't even on the maps?
Fact of life, NPCs 'cheat'. Or seem to. In varying manners, some unfair and some simply misunderstood and interpreted. The GM quests that I've always preferred are pretty open on what someone wants to try magically. Some horrendous consequences have resulted, but anything and everything can be attempted and possibly succeeded with preparation. They also rolled for their NPCs and didn't assume success. We saw some NPCs do some things none of us had ever managed to do...and we also had never attempted them, as there was no previous occasion to do so. And we had no experience whatsoever with x activity which was NPC's only specialty.
Likewise, some NPCs have special abilities, and only those special abilities, that are not defined by mechanics, like if they belong to some blessed sect of whomever but we can't really allow PCs to do that for x reason.
In other cases, though I wager much less often than one might assume, a GM delights in being a GM to be free of all those silly little restrictions on his characters, and abandons them when making his NPCs because they're more fun that way, but doesn't allow PCs to do x because that's 'against the rules' or 'not appropriate' or, you know, 'would ruin the plot.' Even then it's far more likely that its simply for convenience than trying to make you feel bad.
This topic is closely related to the Elminster syndrome, I guess, where NPCs become more important/powerful/prevalent than any PC could ever hope to be. You make up super epic non player characters and make them have traveled the planes, fought epic battles in the pits of hell, mastered magic that no one could ever dream of, because hey, that sounds pretty sweet. Or make their NPC the start of every quest, the one with all the knowledge, the purpose of every journey, always knowing things at a lower experience level than no one else can, because it's the GM's NPC.
Then every PC in the world has to come crying to all the Elminsters of the world because they need help saving the world and he's too busy reading a book and just divulges cryptic sentences now and again, so all these NPCs that are WAY more powerful than the PCs have to have their butts saved all the time, or thousands of years of campaign slaving can be easily ruined by a previously little known villain's cough, because he's just that powerful. It's just how it works at times.
Regarding the epic villains part, well, I would generally ask where the heck those came from too, which is why I don't beg for more epic quests all the time. :P Epic quests require epic villains, and all need to be checked by Ed for continuity because of their larger area spread; people make lower level quests that conflict with existing information all the time, but you can just shrug off a one shot quest or try to explain it away, which doesn't work in the upper scale world affecting things (low OR high level). I love them and appreciate the work done on them, so I'd just as soon wait til one is planned than demand a one shot epic quest or something...since the last thing I want is a whole supply of disposable level 40 villains.
I guess the whole point of this post is to say "It's actually not often that way at all - but when it is, that's just the way it is."
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Then every PC in the world has to come crying to all the Elminsters of the world because they need help saving the world and he's too busy reading a book and just divulges cryptic sentences now and again, so all these NPCs that are WAY more powerful than the PCs have to have their butts saved all the time, or thousands of years of campaign slaving can be easily ruined by a previously little known villain's cough, because he's just that powerful. It's just how it works at times.
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I'm in a quest right now were that is the opposite. We need specific PCs to complete the quest. We gained more information from PCs then NPCs. It was an NPC that stared the quest but it was PC information that has made it continue. That is only one quest though.
I would have to agree that most quests are like what Acacea has mentioned. I think it mostly has to do with PCs only looking out for themselves. Sure we have charitable oragnisations that help once the damage has been done. We just do not have PC organisations that raise armys to fight evil when it raises it's ugly head.
I guess now would be a good time to start.
PS. I assume that could also apply to the evil PC side. I just do not know anything about that side of Layo.
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Or conversely, how does the PC necromancer take over the world with his single undead summons, whereas his NPC counterpart has an army of undead? *shrugs*
That is one of the oldest paradoxes since the earliest days of the "D&D Boxed Edition", best not contemplated by us mere players.
Or, you can put it down to too much DM creativity. ;)
I brought this to the team ages ago with my old Palemaster. I was hoping to have multiple summons.
A little while ago I made a character on another Aussie server which intergrated the latest conversions of PrC's. There where heaps of classes to choose from. I made a True Necromancer (Wiz5/Clr5/TN20). God that was a fune concept. The only restrictions on the amount of summons one could have was limited by the HD available to summon based on your PrC ability. At one point I summoned around 10 Skeletal Cheiftans, a Vampire Lord and Ghoul King. Throw some group buffs and a spell like ability from the PrC which enhances damage and you had a force. Additionally they had around six undead summoning feats which further bolstered your undead summons. God I had fun with this build.