The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: lonnarin on September 27, 2007, 02:12:32 PM
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If a complete stranger walks up to you and attempts to yank your mask or helm off your head, shouldn't that be instant acceptance of PVP where you could just finger of death them for their rude insolence?
I haven't had it happen to me yet, (at least not since way back when I played Rakish) but I've been noticing it going around lately. Character X is just standing there with a hood on, and along comes character Y who metagamingly read X's bio or pic and *knows* that they're a drow or monstrous race of some sort in disguise. Then, without a word, the just walk up to character X and emote *yanks X's mask/helm off*
So here we have some poor player's disguise totally ruined because a grabby player doesn't even have the decency to RP with the person to even bring up suspicion. I understand that while guards might try to do this in service of their jobs, but people not of the military really don't have any right to be touching anyone. I would view this as assault, since many spells and poisons need only come into contact via touching a person, and most certainly theft of a fine helm or mask. As such, I think a perfectly justifiable solution would be to make such offenses open season for PVP.
It should also be noted that humans and gnomes without subracial features almost never have their masks ripped off, since the grabby players read their description and see nothing awry. It's always when the person's a drow or criminal and puts decent effort into disguising themselves that somebody walks right up and yanks it off. It gets annoying, this 100% accuracy of metagaming. Could somebody try walking up and trying to grab Ketibjorn's hood, calling him a duergar for once? I'd like to see how quickly that person would drop to the floor in a pool of their own blood.
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Could somebody try walking up and trying to grab Ketibjorn's hood, calling him a duergar for once?
If they had a death wish.....;)
But seriously....I second this, wholeheartedly.....You can't read a character's bio IC and come on guys....why on earth would you go and yank down random strangers hoods or pull masks off?
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This gets my vote. STOP yanking off....
Masks of course ;)
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Alternatively, ask everyone to take their mask or helmet off... because come on, ever worn a steel helmet? It's hot, sweaty, and uncomfortable. And it's weird to engage in ordinary social affairs while wearing something over your face. I think plenty of characters may ask people to remove masks, not due to suspicion of dark elfness, but as a simple courtesy.
Either way, just be consistent in your rp, and don't metagame. Simple as that.
(I've never actually someone try to grab a helmet, I'll take your word that it happens though)
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force emotes are not allowed so simple add a *the poor sod to intent on grapping the hood miss a round stone one the ground and fall hard, breaking both legs*
then ask the player in tell how they knew it was dark elf or XXXX (inset hated race)
~Akata
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if this would ever ever happen to me without good reason (had I a hood on), well I would simply ignore it due to bad rule play or simply move around it by emote force.
Yes, I wrote emote force and before someone will cut my head off here for mentioning it, there is a certain balance what you can due and not. And I am not going to make 10000 examples of it. Simply use common sense.
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Even if you are consistent and yank everyone's mask off you should at least add a roll to it to allow people a chance to avoid your efforts. *dex check* or something countered by a *reflex check* (I know its not fair to counter an ability check with a save but it's hard to yank someone's mask off if they know it's integral to their survival too)
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Personally I'd still counter it with an ignore check if the proper preliminary procedures (alliteration!) For PVP or near PVP instances didn't occur (sending a tell)
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*grins wickedly* Surprisingly, no one has tried to yank Steel's helm/mask from his head, despite the obvious display of blue skin-tone... really, it's too bad. I had actually prepared in advance for such an occasion.
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*grins wickedly* Surprisingly, no one has tried to yank Steel's helm/mask from his head, despite the obvious display of blue skin-tone... really, it's too bad. I had actually prepared in advance for such an occasion.
Projectile tiefer vomit is a wonderful thing. ;)
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Everyone in their own character has a right to 'order' to take it off, if they want to . . . BUT they should be able to handle the consequences that happen afterwards ie as lonnarin said PvP or other things.
Second is the forceful emotes. How can anyone know that the character successfully yanked off the hood? Who knows that the person under the hood had a knife hidden in his hand and return a swift blow to the neck of the person that tried to take off the hood? ;-)
So some kind of check is what is needed as what Skywatcher said.
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God don't get me started with this topic. Years of playing a Corathite and Palemaster have brought out the most magnificant power emotes and metagaming issues i've ever had.
Hehheheh...it makes me laugh thinking back at those incidents In Game.
I wore black so I was instantly labelled a Corathite. Yeah that makes sense. Mind you four others in the group would wear black but they're excluded of course.
I had people come up and tap my arm and comment "nice skeletal arm". Go figure. It was fully concealed yet their characters managed to comment on it with no skill checks, no tells asking me what they were about to do..etc.
I had a lengthy discussion a few years back regarding power emotes which can be found in the dispute & grievance thread. I couldn't be bothered digging the link up, however, this is the sort of thing that gets discussed over and over again.
Anway Ionnarin, I whole heartily agree with you and if anyone reaches for my hood I certiainly will finger of death them without a moments thought.
Polak76
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Anway Ionnarin, I whole heartily agree with you and if anyone reaches for my hood I certiainly will finger of death them without a moments thought.
Polak76
But then all those without Spellcraft who have never seen Finger of Death cast so should have no idea what school of magic it is can scream your an evil Necromancer *grins and ducks*
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Force emotes are a problem off and on. Usually they can be kindly dealt with as those doing it tend to be new to the server or new to RP or both. Keep in mind folks not everyone reads these things, as much as we would like them to. If there is a certain person who has a problem with force emoting, your best bet is to talk to them via tell at the time of incident if possible. And don't forget your faithful tools in matters like this... (The GM team)
~row
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But then all those without Spellcraft who have never seen Finger of Death cast so should have no idea what school of magic it is can scream your an evil Necromancer *grins and ducks*
Clever response. It made me laugh...maybe because I think that this actually would happen.
Cheers,
Polak76
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Having had a "disguised" dark elf in layo, I also felt the burns of metagaming when people forced themselves into "sniffing" the dark elf out of my character, maybe just "knowing" for certain she is one, in spite of being in 4 layers, from dyed skin, bandages, clothing and a full plate of armor from head to toe I still had them screaming in Hilnt about her.
Now, as much as I agree with almost all that has been said in this thread, there is one thing that I am strong believer of. No matter if you have a hood, a mask, a disguise, a clown face or whatever. Before we start rolling and setting imaginary DCs I really, really think that there should be an OOC agreement before attempting any emotes to try and grab or do something upon another character.
Because, lets be honest I wouldn't mind having being exposed as a dark elf, but as long as it means something. I really don't want to have someone who I travel with twice to simply just roll higher than me, expose my character, ruin her complete motive and just move on as it doesn't concern him/her.
He/she may still go and play their characters while my character is left with this situation. Because after you “out” the evil necromancer and ruin what the player has been trying to create out of his own spare playing time and go back to your own none interaction with the said necromancer about 15 minutes after the incident, it really just make little difference to you, while the necromancer player is left to deal with consequences you wont bother with.
So I'd really want this mask grabbing, hood pulling, and all that to happen with people who will still have some link to my character, and I have RP'ed and will continue to RP in the future, so it will effect both of us and later the rest of those I meet. Rather than have a random high/epic spot killing machine waltz by, decide he knows this mask is holding something behind, claim victory, tell this to everybody which now outs my character and just carry on to only seldom meet up with my character and now and then mention of this outing (based on the exposed secret) as idle chit chat on the benches.
That’s at least what I think, but I just want to note others that. I'm not here to stay in my comfort zone, or let my character stay shallow and never evolve by different encounters or incidents that shape her characteristic at all, I just want that the same effect that happens to my character will be from people I've had my share of playing with, or know for certain I will have in the future and not someone who I hardly ever play or never will and maybe bump into now and then on a trip.
So, feel free to set a high DC, and have two or three people roll to beat it, but as long as the player having to deal with this agrees. And of course so long as it make sense. If the hooded player was kidnapping your character’s loved one, was seen cutting corpses and worshiping corath that’s quite something else and you will have to deal with. But not as long as nothing of importance between the characters has happened, nothing that will have the risk factor of the hooded one to hang on the balance.
My two cents anyway, boy...think I've just made a mess of things :)
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"Before we start rolling and setting imaginary DCs I really, really think that there should be an OOC agreement before attempting any emotes to try and grab or do something upon another character."
Repeated for emphasis. It's good in theory, and I say in theory because so few people tend to do it. I understand people getting wrapped up in a moment; Hey I know for certain I've done it myself. But people , really make an effort to remember this one.
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common sense
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Clever response. It made me laugh...maybe because I think that this actually would happen.
Cheers,
Polak76
Perhaps because they saw him point and something cast and someone fell down dead? I don't see the point here, any instant kill is almost always announced as necromancy. Almost always. Foul death magic. Phantasmal killer is not necromancy; if it is cast, you can bet half the dwarves around will not be screaming of illusion, but rather necromancy. Same with weird. A spell is cast, people die, they scream necromancy. Seen it many times...few of them are educated on the schools of magic, and it's not really the school of "Necromancy" that they are talking about, but rather "dark magic." Meaning anything that causes instant death, creates undead or requires the use of corpses for anything but resurrection by a deity they like, rotting, corruption, demon summoning, etc, are all anathema and often lumped together by a common populace as 'necromancy,' despite obvious signs of conjuration and transmutation and other things in the list.
Let's not crawl back into the "I should never be called anything for anything I do" hole. Ignorance in the case of Finger of Death happens to be a fairly safe assumption, in my opinion, but each to their own I suppose. At the very least, I don't think it so screams metagaming that one is open for laughing at the proclivity for cheating in others.
I think a hood is actually a pretty poor coverage in the case of, say, a monster race, but it's an equally poor assumption to make that they're not wearing anything under it, or have taken other precautions. If someone is being pretty blatant and ridiculous about their RP while supposedly 'in disguise', which yes, has happened often and I'm not referring to just the color of their clothing, then just send them a tell to get it straightened out first; they might have just gotten carried away and wouldn't want to ruin everything based on that, rather than immediately exposing them. Or it might be on purpose and they're open to that line of RP, providing it is of course actually roleplayed, and then you can settle on some ways to do it.
That way everyone is happy, especially you. They don't get their work ruined by some passing stranger, don't have long series of drama to follow IG because of it, and if they were indeed over the top, have some pointers on avoiding that in the future. You don't get immediately shivved by someone for being rude and ruining a disguise, don't have long series of drama to follow IG because of it, and if they were indeed over the top, you won't get screamed at and loudly declaimed as a cheating metagamer for suspecting anything, AND if they weren't, you don't look like a total jerk for metagaming. Hurray! As Varka said in two words and 3 paragraphs less, common sense. On both sides! Helps everyone out.
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Communication is key and forced emotes without previous okay just isn't cool. If you're going to attempt something make it look like you try to do something not like it simply happens unless 1) its been discussed or its generally accepted by the other person or 2) its not going to simply inflict actions on other people.
There's a big difference between *reaches out and snatches the stranger's mask* and *inches close to the stranger then, without hesitation, attempts to grab hold of their mask* That would be like me going on quest and doing something like *slams the evil mage to the floor and drives a stake into his neck, thus ending his evil reign* Not going to happen. I've just skipped a lot of steps in between, didn't give the GM a chance to counter or take into account wards he might have put up and I'm probably going to be hurting in the morning... *grins*
I won't get into the whole cloaks and hoods stuff because there are a LOT of other factors that can modify the effectiveness of trying to hide your identity. Best thing to do is communicate, be flexible, be creative, be true to your rp, don't force it and be willing to accept the consequences of your character's actions with grace and humility.
Some of the best tussles I've seen in NWN never damaged either party, mechanically speaking, and were hilarious OOC. This sort of thing always makes me think of the Three Musketeers with Kiefer Sutherland where the Cardinal goes to touch the baroness and finds a nice little blade poised to relieve him of his important bits. *chuckles softly* I love that part.
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Hehe...what was the line again? Something like:
Cardinal: "With a word, I could have you arrested."
Woman with dagger: "And with a flick of my wrist, I could change your religion..."
Or something like that.
Yeah anyway.... forced emotes = bad. Common sense = goooooooood.
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"Phantasmal killer is not necromancy; if it is cast, you can bet half the dwarves around will not be screaming of illusion, but rather necromancy. Same with weird."
Don't mean to take this forum off topic, but I always found this kinda funny, as Vorax is actually more against that vile trickery that is illusion.
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Hehe...what was the line again? Something like:
Cardinal: "With a word, I could have you arrested."
Woman with dagger: "And with a flick of my wrist, I could change your religion..."
Or something like that.
Yeah anyway.... forced emotes = bad. Common sense = goooooooood.
Right on...Tim Curry and Rebecca De Mornay!!! Great quote.
As far as the "pulling the mask off" off or the "metagaming emotes", while I have had my share, I have never had a real problem with it. I simply send the person a tell and try to handle it there. If they don't want to listen, then I do a public //Doing emotes like that are considered personal attacks and considered pvp. It did not happen, but if you want it to have happened "then I use the pvp widget" you can do it after we are done with this.
Problem solved. You will be surpised how quickly someone stops metagaming or understands the situation at that point. It is also funny to watch the other people that may be in their group when they recieve the message that they are about to enter pvp.
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"Phantasmal killer is not necromancy; if it is cast, you can bet half the dwarves around will not be screaming of illusion, but rather necromancy. Same with weird."
Don't mean to take this forum off topic, but I always found this kinda funny, as Vorax is actually more against that vile trickery that is illusion.
Not really. At least, not in that sense specifically, any more than any other school...magic itself is vile trickery. ;) Illusion is known for it, yeah, blasted magic that makes you unsure of the ground you walk on, but Vorax is the father of righteous battle and honorable combat. To be killed with a word uttered is a death without even the honor of a blade drawn, and because few can understand it, it can't be protected against in the way most dwarves learn to protect themselves. It is, plain and simply, 'cheating.' And since necromancy deals with the dead, which is also usually inherently despicable - dwarves are very tradition-bound with very deep roots, and honor their fallen and past way way back; the thought of their desecration (which just sounds inherent in the word necromancy) is profane - anything that 'makes you dead' when there is no direct and obvious explanation (a gigantic rock falling on their head, a huge blast of fire) is often just called necromancy. I think they just have their own definition for the word, and death ward isn't in it.
Of course, magic in general is cheating and is a coward's fight, but there are a lot of dwarves with varying degrees of tolerance towards more accepted practices of the arcane; 'dark magic' tends to remain abhorred, however... but either way it's moot since most don't know the different schools of magic, anyway - we should just make a new one for dwarves called "foul magic" and leave it at that...each clan gets to make their own list of 'foul magic' ...hehe
Um. Yeah. Communication good. Common sense good. *Runs away after replying a bit off topic*
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My character being the new Dark elf on the block has not had any trouble so far, which is good, i have however in situations where i feel that its justified revealed my character against my wishes, but in the sense of rp realism.
Seriously if your character is near death no way you could hide the tears in your armor showing your skin colour and what not.
Its kind of fun really, had one point where my character approached arynne and it ended up in some strict rp pvp, where we basically went for whoever got to near death first lost hehe.
So in all fairness use the rp approach and follow the ways you think your character would respond to any situation, because i dont think many would try and peel the helm off a archer of ilsare, if they saw them.
But if you saw some guy dressed in spidery looking things and carrying all these evil looking things then one can safely assume he is bad news :P
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But if you saw some guy dressed in spidery looking things and carrying all these evil looking things then one can safely assume he is bad news :P
Hey, save your personal jabs for some other spidery looking person! *grins*
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I dont know what you mean :P
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perhaps the collector has to find the spidery evil looking one and find out how bad his news is