The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: ShiffDrgnhrt on January 24, 2008, 09:29:54 PM
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Alright. I'm bringing this up cause of a PvP I was in, and lost. But, it might help for others to think about this.
Fighter A and Fighter B get mad at eachother and A threatens B over something B said. A and B go to the Arena to fight.
A is the better "fighter" (Fgt/Wm), B is... (Rog/Fgt). Forget feats and Such (like Epic Dodge >.>). But, B has on a "shirt" with +3 Soak 10 Damage. A's greatsword smack him in the chest/head/arm but its only +2 so no mechanical damage, and this happens and happens and blah blah blah.
A loses. (me)
Now the question. Whats the realism of that? No broken bones, bruises, anything on B's side. A got ruined. In an RP sense, I would Imagine even getting hit would hurt in some way/shape/form.
Why do I ask? Cause it's an RP server, and I woulda imagines two skilled fighters having a real throw down, not a one sided .... whatever you call that...
Any comments, thoughts... ? Dms?
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Magic... it's a... ahem... yeah... magic has the ability to make an awesome warrior look like a ninny (in this case, the magic of the clothing)... why do you think 90% of dwarves at least distrust magic if they don't outright hate it?
If you want to imagine what the fight might have looked like "close" up with all the effects our game can't render: Shiff's sword is bouncing off an almost invisible barrier before ever reaching ..err, B.... the barrier only becoming slightly visible as Shiff tries to break through it. "B" would have felt nothing as he was never actually hit.
Of course, that's only one way to imagine it. One way or the other, the magic absorbed Shiff's attacks so "B"s body didn't have to.
P.S. Advice from one killer to another: Before you throw down discover your opponents weaknesses so you can exploit them; don't trust your own strength.
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The way I see it, hit points represent more than just how many cuts you can take. They are also a measure of training and endurance. The tougher you are, the more hits you can take and keep going. The better your training, the less "X points of damage" really hurt you. The better your endurance, the longer you can last in a fight, keeping up your guard properly to deflect or dodge or whatever you do. It's an abstraction and doesn't always make perfect sense, but it works well enough.
Damage that causes hit point loss is meaningful damage. If a magical shirt prevents some weapons from doing damage, then the wearer isn't being meaningfully hurt. They may be sore later, but at that moment there's no real problem. Think of football pads. There are people slamming into each other, and that probably should hurt, and they may be sore later, but right then on the field they are fine.
So, in my opinion, Fighter B may be tired and sore from the exertion, and may have a few minor bruises or such that don't really cause any difficulties or pain (y'know, for color, if you like that stuff), but didn't lose any hit points so didn't suffer broken bones or serious bruises or major wounds of any sort. He was fine. Magic is wonderful like that.
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Then Explain Adamantium or Cobalt Or Mithril... Or the leathers? I always saw the metal armors as too hard and taking some of the blow, and the Dire Bear or whatever as too tough to really get through. Think about it. A suit of armor made of dragon skin isnt tough from magic, its tough cause dragon skin IS harder then hell... But hey, if I smack you with a tree and your i Addy Full Plate, yer GONNA move, even if the armor takes all the damageg
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Actually, unless Ed tells me otherwise (and he just might. I'm still learning how dragons work in Layo), dragonskin is magical, as dragons are inherently magical creatures.
As for the non-magical armors, or reinforced clothing, you're right. They "take" some of the blow. But in the case you cited, that's exactly what the magic is doing: taking some of the blow. In essence, it's "too hard", just like adamantium is too hard, for many physical attacks to break through.
When a mage casts Shield or Mage Armor, they are literally placing a hard, invisible barrier around them that are designed to absorb or deflect physical blows.
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In a way, the training and endurance concepts of hit points are much more important than the cuts concept. It's a fantasy world, but there's nothing magic about flesh, really. A good chop with an axe and you're done, right?
So, a hit doesn't necessarily mean that a wound was caused; it could be that it happened to hit the shield or deflect off the armor. The defender "spent" some hit points to reflect his training, moving with the blow to reduce its effectiveness, getting just a bit more tired with the maneuver. That's a hit mechanically, though, and hit points are lost.
Adding fancy materials just makes it easier to avoid taking damage. They combine with training to make the combatant "tougher." Blades slide off more easily and arrows have more trouble penetrating. Add magic and anything is possible.
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Why is a greatsword hitting for less than 10 damage?
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I waffle between the magic explanation and a more RLish one...
Think of some historical examples...
When attacking the Aztecs, Cortés got a locally made tightly woven cloth armor because it stopped arrows better than the European steel armors.
In one of the British colonial uprisings (can't remember which) The Brits complained their swords couldn't cut through the wool jerkins the peasants wore.
Just because metal full plate is mechanically much stronger than leathers and cloth armors doesn't mean that a well-made lighter armor can't stop blows. We don't have much experience with thick leathers and cloth garments nowadays, so we tend not to think of it though.
As far as the reinforced clothing, maybe the damage reduction is kevlarish... spreads the force of a cutting blow across the wearer, so you're right, it's still going to hurt, but you aren't going to be able to cut someone wearing them in half.
And if you don't buy that, there's always the "it's magic" explanation :-)
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The Magic Explanation is for those that don't have a brain like you Clepy ;)
But seriously, I agree more with Cleppy here then anything "magical"...
I dont see Kobal Casting Shield on his Mithril Armor when he makes it. Lord of the Rings is a great example. Mithril "Light as a feather, Hard as Dragonscales" stops a huge spear from stabbing Frodo, but KNOCKS HIM OUT in the process. Sure it didnt go throw him, but he still got hit with all that Force. Every wear kevlar and get shot? It still freakin Hurts, even if you arent gonna die.
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Ahh, but Frodo got KD'd! :D
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The Frodo example is an excellent "real life" fluff-text conversion of the mechanics of damage reduction. Frodo's low level, but wearing this fancy-pants armor. The spear would normally have killed him (or anyone, probably - spear through the chest, ouch. Even King Arthur died that way), but the damage was reduced so that he was only knocked out (zero hit points) and was able to recover.
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As was mentioned earlier, and is often brought up in various other forms of discussion for DnD, hit points are less a direct representation of how much direct physical punishment one can take in combat and is more representative of the overall combat dance. Essentially, ever traded blow, parry, miss, glancing shot, dodge, roll, etc., is what Hit points are truly representative of.
Of course this all falls apart when sitting at the table and scoring "a hit" or observing another avatar poke your avatar squarely in vulnerable places. From my perspective, I would assume that character A hit character B a few times - glancing blows, sliding past a parry, etc. - but was never able to successfully penetrate the armor. At most, character B then got nudged about due to his protective armor, the likes character A might have never seen.
Before I forget, don't forget your dicebag - you could always do a called shot to the face which tends to generally be rather unprotected by copious amounts of semi-magical chain mail. Face, hands, exposed tail, all are fair game if you play it smart. You may want to dicebag future pvp combat - ignoring potentially event breaking things such as + x / soak Y - but that's all between the combatants. I don't think the mechanical nature of NWN's combat system was designed for anything more efficent in pvp then to measure one's electronic-pencil.
For me, pvp is a dicebag only affair. It gives both sides to properly act with their characters abilities.
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Balin's Tomb - The Lord of the Rings (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jYO84Wy2YQs&feature=related)
Ignore the Bad music, but towards the end you see my example. Frodo gets hit with a HUGE spear and gets only knocked down and out. (not up ;)) Aragorn even says "That Spear would have skewered a wild Boar" so don't tell me getting hit "and living" Doesn't hurt.
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If Tolkien had respected lvl requirements, Frodo wouldn't have been able to wear that mithril chain shirt. Just an example of an unbalanced magic world. Enough said.. *shifty*
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Shut Up Hardy, he got the Group XP for Pwning the Ringwraiths AND the Balrog, AND a HORDE of Orcs!
Plus the Quest Reward Bonus for "Epic Battle"
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hmm one sided where one fighter gets ruins and the other doesnt have a scratch
id call that wolverine in the cage fights in xmen 1
shiff have you been fighting mutants?
the b fighter should have shown some fatigue from the fight even if he didnt have a scratch just to make it more realistic
he may have thrashed you but i bet it took a while
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I think what Gulnyr is explaining and what we're saying about items or magic taking part of the blow needs to be pulled together (which may very well be what Gulnyr is trying to do anyway).
The way I see HP is, if it hurts, you use up HP. It doesn't have to be an actual wound, like Gulnyr suggests, but if the blow is good enough, you must use some manner of extra effort to prevent yourself from being skewered. That extra effort hurts, but the pain of the bodily strain is worth it if you prevent your own death.
In the case of magic or exceptional armor, some or all of the attack may be absorbed/deflected without causing the wearer pain/effort. In other words, no HP loss, because they didn't have to summon physical effort to protect themselves. Something else did the work. Of course, now we could get into armor damage that doesn't happen in NWN, but when it comes to magic, you're not going to have that damage anyway.
When Frodo took the hit and passed out, he lost HP. The mithril may have prevented him from being entirely skewered, but his own body also absorbed a great deal of the blow. In the case of Shiff and the magic shirt, "B"s body wasn't absorbing any of the blow unless Shiff did more damage than the Magic barrier could contain.
P.S. knowing who you were up against, I suspect the real issue was AC, not the DR from that "shirt." In which case "B" was simply too quick for Shiff to hit.
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Shiff's AB is +29, and "B" Ac he told me was 36? I didnt Roll less then 7 every time...
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What are you arguing, exactly, Shiff? That people should act hurt when they aren't? You seem to have gotten defensive suddenly about what should or shouldn't hurt, though I could just be misreading.
Act hurt all you want, I say. I don't think anyone will be upset. I won't. The next time a giant hits your character, stop fighting and fall down from the tremendous power behind that blow. Probably good stuff, really. Nice RP. I would cheer that as excellent, once, even as I thought you were kind of a dufus. And twice, there would be no more "kind of" and I would be rolling my eyes instead of cheering, probably. It's easy to overdo that kind of stuff.
Magic is magic, in the end, and there can't be any requirement for people to act hurt in a world where having a single hit point remaining leaves you just as dangerous and capable as you were when you started fighting. There are only abstractions, and nothing will be perfectly sensible within the system.
I've been on hit points so much because I think you have to know what they represent before you can understand how something might not hurt in a 'real life' consideration of the events. Milt's rehash is a good one.
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The armor of B, who was Tobias btw (not using epic dodge), had on Master Adventurer's Armor with +3 Soak 10 Whatever Damage Reduction. I'm talking about If I smack him with a Freaking Tree, He's gonna feel it, even if he aint bleeding.
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And if a giant hits your character on Dregar with his tree-like axe? Or with that enormous boulder he threw? And if you have three hit points left, which is certainly a bad situation in which you should have broken bones and a concussion and a collapsed lung? How often should we RP these things?
I totally get what you're saying, but in the end, it's all an abstraction. If people RP that something hurt when it didn't do any hit point damage, great. If not, great. It can't be forced.
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What I'm saying is, with enough magic, you might not feel the tree.
With just some "normal" armor, you'd feel the tree, certainly. With magic... well, it's magic.
EDIT: man, I must type slow.
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Even with normal armor, though, if a character doesn't lose hit points, it didn't really do anything serious. I know that can seem screwy.
To try to tie in the hit point stuff from before, imagine that Terrence Treeswinger swings a tree at Stephanie Standingthere. If it's a miss, maybe Stephanie dodged it with little effort. If it's a hit, Stephanie loses hit points, but maybe she still dodged the tree. Yes, I did in fact say that she still dodged the tree, despite being hit. It just happens that this dodge was more strenuous, so it cost some hit points, which represent training and endurance as much or more than cuts sustainable. So mechanically, she was nailed, but 'realistically' she dodged with great effort.
If we're talking about swinging trees and throwing boulders, I think it's probably best to assume the 'effort to dodge' angle instead of the 'nailed by something stupidly enormous' one. Lot of assumption in an abstract system. It gets hairy.
This doesn't have anything to do with magic stuff. It's magic. It just works. Asking how or why magic works seems like an exercise in futility and frustration. That's irritating, I know. The scientist in me gets upset. I tell the scientist to relax about abstract systems and magical armor.
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Well put, Gulnyr.
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Along the lines of the magic bonuses referencing LOR, when Gandolf got hit with the flame lash whip from the Balrog on the bridge, he didn't take damage due to magical protection even though all he was wearing was his robes. The magic took the blow even though it strained him to hold up the shield against the force put against it. The drain of the combat was quite evident even though Gandolf never actually took physical damage from the Balrog. So would it be considered that Gandolf took hp hits due to fatigue from the combat (before the bridge collapse) or did he have full hp at the end and only drained of magical energy and in need of rest?
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I'd say both. Drained in magical power and drained of some HP.
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As for the Mithril armour forged by Kobal that you were talking about, Shiff, think about the level of craftsmanship going into that armour. This isn't just your average suit of scale mail, links forged together "close enough". This is going to be a masterpiece of the forge. Intricate cuts and sockets make it move easily with the body beneath it, but lock tight as a stone wall when a blow strikes it from the outside.
I'd presume that Master Adventurer's armour would have some spells built into it that account for that Soak 10 damage, or at least part of it. For the rest, imagine a suit of thick leather, impossibly well-made (bear in mind, virtually nothing ever developed in real life is designed to absorb the kind of damage these outfits do). If a magic field absorbed some of the hit, padding and thick leather could distribute the rest across a section of the body that would feel, at most, a minor blow. A punch on the arm, instead of a bone-crushing hit. Certainly not something someone accustomed to receiving wounds would allow to slow them down - nor likely even notice until well afterwards, when they're bathing and wonder where that bruise came from.
Plus, as Gulnyr put it, the randomness of the damage roll comes from the fact that your opponent is moving, and you're trying to take a swing at them while they're attacking you. You're not going to land the best hit you could, in that situation - or maybe you'll get lucky, and hit them somewhere it hurts (ie. Critical Hit). Most of the time, though, your blows will be glancing, not mortal.
Finally, the LoTR example - at that point, Frodo was, perhaps, level 4, if that. Probably a rogue, so not much by way of hit points. Troll comes in, and hits him dead on (a critical hit!) for fifty points of damage. However, Frodo's mithril armour is rated at a Soak 26, so more than half of that blow is absorbed. The remainder is enough to throw him off his feet, across the room, and knock him out... but had it been Gimli wearing the mithril, you can bet he would've grabbed the spear pressing into his chest, yanked it close, and given the troll a taste of Dwarven steel. If you're tough enough to survive the damage dealt you, then it's not likely to throw you much of anywhere. If there's no damage dealt - then you've not been hurt, simple as that.
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Along the lines of the magic bonuses referencing LOR, when Gandolf got hit with the flame lash whip from the Balrog on the bridge, he didn't take damage due to magical protection even though all he was wearing was his robes. The magic took the blow even though it strained him to hold up the shield against the force put against it. The drain of the combat was quite evident even though Gandolf never actually took physical damage from the Balrog. So would it be considered that Gandolf took hp hits due to fatigue from the combat (before the bridge collapse) or did he have full hp at the end and only drained of magical energy and in need of rest?
Could be either, or even something different that I can't imagine right now. Maybe, heh. The scene is a lot like the fluff text of a CDT where we can see the cool things that happened without knowing anything about the rolls behind it.
One way to imagine it is that he was totally protected by magic, but was exhausted after a while because magic takes a lot of effort. Another way is to imagine that he was protected for the most part, but still lost hit points due to fatigue and could have eventually been too exhausted (low hit points), maybe with a few minor injuries, to properly defend himself and avoid one more blow, which would have actually done serious physical harm.
That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting. It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort. A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch. When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now." So, if that LotR scene was on Layonara, without getting in-depth and considering the nature of protective spells here and whatnot, I would say he was losing hit points.
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hehe, I knew gimili would end up in this thread sooner or later.
As for random rolls for attack think baseball, just because they CAN hit homeruns they don't hit them all the time sometimes its a grounder to first base and your out ;) sometimes you catch it head on and its a hommer (crit)
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Could be either, or even something different that I can't imagine right now. Maybe, heh. The scene is a lot like the fluff text of a CDT where we can see the cool things that happened without knowing anything about the rolls behind it.
One way to imagine it is that he was totally protected by magic, but was exhausted after a while because magic takes a lot of effort. Another way is to imagine that he was protected for the most part, but still lost hit points due to fatigue and could have eventually been too exhausted (low hit points), maybe with a few minor injuries, to properly defend himself and avoid one more blow, which would have actually done serious physical harm.
That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting. It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort. A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch. When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now." So, if that LotR scene was on Layonara, without getting in-depth and considering the nature of protective spells here and whatnot, I would say he was losing hit points.
To be honest, if I was writing a book on a Layo Quest, Sorcerers (Gandalf is "no conjurer of cheap tricks" but he has no spell book! he a sorc) would be worn out since they ARE putting effort into spells. Wizards are reading some words and making gestures.
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I think it does not matter what "B" was wearing because even in the second fight when "B" took off his clothing and but on a different set "A" still didn't score a hit due to a +47 parry! that "B" was using.
And its not the fact that "A" didn't hurt "B", "B" might feel a little sore in the morning.
Also you were fighting in expertise mode which hampered your attacking.
The battle could of gone differently where Shiff could of came out on top. Just think of it as Tobias err I mean "B" was more prepared for what he was getting himself into then "A" was that day.
Oh! And don't judge a book by its cover. *nods sagely and hides his bags of tricks*
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Shut up you :p I'll get you yet *grins*
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Oh geez... here we were talking about how in real life blunt trauma the aorta does rupture and the apple really does fall off the tree branch (seriously folks, don't think the seatbelt can save you from everything)... versus the magic of the lands as well as the best explanation of hitpoints I have seen, from Gulnyr (despite the animations we unfortunately see).
And then the parry ego comes in. I'm tempted to say 'time to fight a real rogue'... but then I realize that ego is a vicious cycle... as I then look down the line at Kobal and Angela. And were there DT's in PvP... you'd see Ket swallowing and choking down some rotten Beryl dust along with his own ego.
It's a vicious cycle Toby... dont' get sucked in!!! :D :D :D
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I think the words 'abstract system' have to be said here. Sure there's a little animation that we shed blood every time we get hit, but Gulnyr said it best - just because we got 'hit' doesn't mean we're hit. It just means that our capacity to resist or avoid damage has been lowered, and we're getting closer to going into shock.
Realistically, the human body can only take so much punishment. No matter how strong or tough you are, we're practically riddled with areas that, if you get a good jab at them, can lead to major complications and death. It's possible you get cut up saber fencing, or it's possible that you don't actually start bleeding until 'badly wounded'. The trick is, you're not able to dodge blows quite as quickly, because maybe you got nicked, or maybe you're getting tired.
If someone swings a big, BIG sword at you, and connects, you're going to be pretty badly hurt. If someone fires a crossbow at an unarmoured bit of you, it's going to hurt. A lot. A lot of the time, when we get hit, we don't get hit - we just barely manage to avoid getting hit, or we get grazed. Our armour ablates the blow, and we lose a little bit of the energy, the vitality, the dumb luck or divine favour that our hitpoints represent.
Another way of looking at it is hitpoints as the ability to avoid going into shock. You aren't bleeding out until you can't stop yourself from bleeding out, after all; when your body has taken so much, or you've lost just enough of that spark that you're rendered helpless and dying.
What this says about healing potions (heavy narcotics?) and healing kits I'm not sure I want to know....
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*Scribbles on on some parchment "Need Beryl dust"*
Toby's is not the best fighter, heck I wouldn't even call him a decent fighter. Does Toby know that yet? He will once Hardragh drags him to the arena and completly owns him with a single chant. :) Or a level 10 mage casts fear that sends poor Toby screaming for his long lost mommy.
So no.. I will not be sucked in by ego! And I will go looking for that rotten Beryl dust today!
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Shiff has some *snickers*
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Another way of looking at it is hitpoints as the ability to avoid going into shock. You aren't bleeding out until you can't stop yourself from bleeding out, after all; when your body has taken so much, or you've lost just enough of that spark that you're rendered helpless and dying.
I like that!
Having spent various amounts of times around re-enactors.....who try and beat each other to death (as safely as possible) in full plate and using real although rarely (note I say rarely) sharp swords.....
Adrenaline.....
Pure and simple....
I've seen these guys fight like demons, win, laugh, joke, enjoy their victory and literally collapse as the walk off the field and the adrenaline goes
Let's be honest guys.....If your fighting for your life, instinct and training will take over......at least until the danger passes and THEN the broken arm is gonna hurt like hell!!
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That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting.
Using magic in the NWN version is not exhausting, but that's a system thing., you just get your spells based on DnD rules and that's it. If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.
As for dragon scales, they're tough, and they're magical (i.e. some dragons have fire resistance, others have acid resistance etc.).
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Ed, may I ask another question since you are the Lore Master?
The metal armors, Adamantium, Cobalt, Mithril... Magical or just super strong?
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If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.
( i know your speaking of sriptin there Ed)
But ingame rp wise I qualify the fact that after using up your amount of spells and then having no magic left, is the "mana" part of NWN. And basically you get more spell with level ups so your "mana" goes up too.
a small edit:
about freldo, he did not get hit straight on with the spear, instead he got hit with the guard of the spear (the part that stops a body from going past the point it self)
more like a half hit if you ask me (the spear itself hit the wall in between his arm and the body, the guard crushed him on the wall taking his breath out)
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Several things.
First, Hellblazer. FRODO. Thank you.
Second, ABSTRACT SYSTEM. Realistically, it only takes one really good knock from a sword to kill a man - sink the blade in his skull, and he dies. The animations in NWN don't reflect this - because Bioware are stooges. ;) Hit Points don't just measure how many times you've been hit how hard... They do represent, as Gulnyr explained marvelously well, dodging, parrying, etc. (I don't think the Parry skill should exist either, but that's another issue.)
A "hit" doesn't mean you're actually hit. A critical hit usually does, but even that's not a guarantee. If you've got two hundred hitpoints, and some commoner double-twenties you for a whole six points of damage, he's still not going to hit you - just come really close. Might actually take some effort for you to avoid the stabbity stab.
For example, Pyyran vs. Shiff. Shiff comes at Pyyran full-force, and Pyyran ends up looking a lot like Spiderman, ducking and dodging about as he desperately tries to avoid getting chopped in half by that big [ahem]ing sword. But then Shiff, being a true master of the Greatsword he is, nails our beloved swashbuckler, and even with the shnifty cobalt-spun clothes, knocks Pyyran across the arena and smashes bones. Pyyran gets up, sort of, wanting to at least touch Shiff before going down, but only manages a weak thrust which is deflected by the Striker's fullplate before getting whalloped again.
Sure, Shiff lost some hitpoints. Did Pyyran really touch him? No. Did Shiff touch P through the first three-quarters of the Swashbuckler's HP? Not really.
Three, mainly for Ed:
From what I understand about how magic works in Layo (that is, a steward deity grants access to magic through a framework), magic WOULD be draining, or at least straining, on most casters. Wizards, who prepare their spells beforehand, and release the mostly-cast spells with a final command, would probably feel a bit tired after preparing spells, at least mentally, but would just as likely feel relieved after actually casting the final trigger as the spell is wiped from their mind. A sorcerer, on the other hand, is expending a very direct effort when casting spells, so would very likely feel drained as they went through spells-per-day. Clerics might need to concentrate to channel the power of their deities, but I imagine it would require less effort than arcanists for most spells.
So, to conclude, yes, I think spellcasting should most definitely have some effect on casters... If, admittedly, not so much as it might for casters not working in a universe where magic is shepherded so well by a matron deity.
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Err why did I think freldo for some reason...
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Freldo is/was a bard who played here; for a time, the proprieter of the Leilon Arms. Bardbarian sort, lady's man, dressed all in light blue. He actually had Rain's head model. Freldo Jabutica... Miss that guy.
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Per D&D definition, a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. HP doesn't symbolize jumping around and parrying as that's the job of AC (we disregard the fact that NWN has the presence of a parry-skill). The job of AC also to tell "you were hit on the armor, but it didn't penetrate your armor, nor did the force of impact hurt you in any meaningful way". That's also why touch attacks ignore armor AC... Oh... A critical hit means that you were hit something "bad". Like on the head.
The higher level HP progression is primary shown as your character's ability to "hold on" and "take the hits hit at less vital locations" (example being a light slash on one's arm compared with the sword cutting into the bones of one's arm). Would a level 20 character die if he had his throat cut... just like a level 1 character? Certainily! That's why D&D have the massive damage and the coup de grace rule.
NWN has unfortunately not (really) implemented the last two things (for balancing reasons?) which makes the NWN model even more flawed than before. Heh... even the standard D&D mindset of heavier armor only giving extra AC (turning hits to misses) is kind of unrealistic. A common varation is to have heavier armor give extra physical resistance instead... :)
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Actually, Weeblie (though, regrettably, my work blocks D20srd.org, so I can't give you a link), the D20 HP system IS abstract - a hit is not always a hit, and a miss is not always a miss. I believe this is covered, if not in the Player's Handbook, in the DMG.
Again, I'm sorry for not being able to provide a link - it's not exactly helpful to my stance. xD But, work is work. And I'm doing precious little of that...
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While the D&D system is abstract, you have abstracted it a little bit too far. :p
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I can't really effectively argue that without being able to provided canon in defense of my stance.
All I can really say is...
Nuh-uh! :P
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Freldo is/was a bard who played here; for a time, the proprieter of the Leilon Arms. Bardbarian sort, lady's man, dressed all in light blue. He actually had Rain's head model. Freldo Jabutica... Miss that guy.
Oh i do know who freldo was, i just don't know why I wrote his name instead of frodo.:\
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Oh i do know who freldo was, i just don't know why I wrote his name instead of frodo.:\\
*smirks playfully* I could be mean and say something like "Freudian slip", but that would be mean, so I won't say it.
In advance, I'm posting this comment as a joke, it is not meant to be a personal attack. Please regard it as an attempt at humor between friends(even if it really isn't that funny, or is it?).
EDIT - For further clarification: I'm in a wonky mood today, so don't take this post seriously. Can't explain why I posted it, or even thought it'd be remotely funny, but I did...so laugh if it makes you laugh, but don't take it personal if it doesn't. Does that make sense?
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Well, if you're going by some of the older stuff..
Gygax included in HP such things as luck, divine favour, etcetera. Also, the reason strength was added to you THAC0 was that you were trying to damage someone THROUGH their armour, so go figure.
Of course, this was also the fellow who came up with the Fusion theory of spell components, so let's not go crazy here.
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bat guano + ??? = Fireball?
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It's a little off-topic, but..
The idea was that components to the spell were exchanged with their 'equal amount of positive energy from the positive energy plane', which then went on to be shaped by the caster's acts of will into the spell in question. If there were no physical components, it was the air that the caster breathed when giving the verbal components.
See, apparently every item in the physical world contains a certain amount of potential positive energy, and...
Well, you get the idea.
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My thought was that it was a sort of focus. Like many faith/energy healers today, along with various astrologers and the like, use crystals, incense, tarot cards, etc. Only, with the stronger effect, there's a more dire need for the focus, and once you learn it that way, you have an incredibly difficult time doing it any other way (a-la WoT).
In the case of Fireball, the guano is in tiny balls, which burn and explode (though only with heat, not force) when thrown at the target. It DOES take a Ranged Touch Attack to get it through Concealing terrain, for example.
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*smirks playfully* I could be mean and say something like "Freudian slip", but that would be mean, so I won't say it.
In advance, I'm posting this comment as a joke, it is not meant to be a personal attack. Please regard it as an attempt at humor between friends(even if it really isn't that funny, or is it?).
EDIT - For further clarification: I'm in a wonky mood today, so don't take this post seriously. Can't explain why I posted it, or even thought it'd be remotely funny, but I did...so laugh if it makes you laugh, but don't take it personal if it doesn't. Does that make sense?
haha nope not at all lol:D
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Some quotes to the nature of hitpoints:
Hit points (sometimes abbreviated "hp") represent two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a graze or near miss. As you become more experienced, you become more adept at parrying strikes, dodging attacks, and rolling with blows such that you minimize or avoid significant physical trauma, but all this effort slowly wears you down. Rather than trying to keep track of the difference between attacks and how much physical injury you take, hit points are an abstract measure of your total ability to survive damage.
Jedi Counseling 101 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20070322jc101)
Hit points (or hp): This number defines how much damage your character can withstand before being defeated in combat. When your character runs out of hit points, he or she is defeated.
Defining Your Dungeons & Dragons Character - For Dummies (http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-3079.html)
Injury and Death
[FONT="]Hit points measure how hard a character is to kill. Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
[/FONT][SIZE=-1]https://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrddeathdyinghealing.rtf
[/SIZE]Injury and Death
Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.
Injury and Death :: d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm)
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[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]I read through a number of other posts & sources and am inclined to agree that it is both a measure of physical toughness and the abstraction of the combat 'dance.' I think the d20src sums it up nicely as a measure of "how hard you are to kill." Which of course, is still vague enough to not please everyone.
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Reading the two core handbooks, one realises it still doesn't negate the fact that a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. While HP is used to abstract that you are lessening the "real damage" of incomming blows (my example with a light wound on one's warm compared to a hit that cuts into the bone), it does not nullify them completely (a "hit roll" cannot be considered to have been fully deflected). Even the texts you have posted are supporting that claim (except for the one in the SW edition of D&D).
This is certainily a system that's flawed. For example... while your fighter is obviously getting better and better at hitting other things, he in no way improves his ability to truly dance around and take zero damage. On the other hand, if HP were to symbolize "getting tired in combat", then shouldn't it auto-regenerate to some degree (quicker than what it does now)? And what about the fact that HP can be healed by those cure wounds spells, but the status of fatigue doesn't?
The way it is written in the core handbooks about damage, attack rolls and hit points, it leaves little wriggle room to the fact that hits are really hits (the d20srd texts about those things are almost the same). The only true conclusion one can draw, as the handbooks are merely a guideline for any campaign, and the "opinion of all" is the one standing, is that the base D&D system is far from perfect if one wishes to have a "realistic" system (that's why all those variant rules exist!). :p
So, because of that there are multiple ways to see this, I'm personally letting the HP matter get a little bit more room. If the green text floating over your character's text is still saying uninjured (despite that you have lost a little bit of HP), then I won't really consider you injured either (a light paper-cut-ish wound on your finger? aww...). But if your status is "injured" or "near death"... don't start to claim "I'm merely dead tired..." as I won't buy that (nor do I think anyone else will). :p
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On the other hand, if HP were to symbolize "getting tired in combat", then shouldn't it auto-regenerate to some degree (quicker than what it does now)?
Only after you stop getting the snot knocked out of you, and then you can rest (et voila, hitpoints restored).
Hitpoints as fatigue works quite well, because getting hit is fatiguing. Initially, when you are taking "damage", you would be getting roughed up, receiving only superficial physical injuries, scrapes, bruising, small cuts, that sort of thing, but nothing that would impair your ability to fight, and definately no broken bones.
Its only as you start running out of hitpoints that your ability to avoid physical injury diminishes, and the "damage" becomes physical.
Also, if hitpoints can be fully restored by resting, what does that tell you about the nature of "damage"? Fundamental physical damage takes a lot longer for the body to repair than a good night's sleep.
And what about the fact that HP can be healed by those cure wounds spells, but the status of fatigue doesn't?
Sorry, I don't understand this. To which "status of fatigue" do you refer?
Note the above paradigm only works for combat. When you start thinking about 10d6 fireballs and lightning bolts, which could well be argued as physical damage, or beheading, or cutting out someone's heart with a 1d4 dagger, well...
I think we can safely say... its a very simplistic system... that does a job... that doesn't hold up to too close a scrutiny. :rolleyes:
Perhaps we should stop trying to demand more of it than it can provide.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Condition Summary :: d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#Fascinated) (fatigued part)
It's a condition which I'm sure all Baldur's Gate people know very well. :)
It's physical tiredness as a result from for example travelling too much!
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Ahh... (thanks for that)
When I said "fatigued", I meant fatigued, not fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fascinated). :)
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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While you're right on with Fatigue, Weebs, I tip my hat to FatherChaos for getting some copy to support the statement about the abstract nature of Hit Points.
I honestly don't have better than that, unless you want me to transcribe from the Grim N Gritty system, where the HP/AC/etc system is very direct and literal. (It makes references to the differences between it and the standard D20 system.)
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Intresting thread :)
Not going say anything about the magic armour, HP or so.. just wanna mention some other things..
Shiff when you fight a fighter whith quite high AC and decent AB like you did here you should defently not fight in expertise if thats what you did.
If I'm not wrong Shiffs AC is low.. using no shield and have low tumble right?
So you will be an easy target anyway. And Toby isn't a high damage fighter so don't worrie about him hitting you.. your strength lies in your damage capability.
You said your AB was 29.. Yea thats your first attack, so this means
29/24/19/14: this means that probably get a chanse to land a hit/critical 1 time a round..
Your chanses to land a Critical would be probably double from fighting in no expertise.. A weapon masters crits especially using greatsword will cut through a dmg 10 soak like butter.. (make 90 instead of 100 in damage or so)
That means about two crits on Toby and he would be fried ;)