The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: jan on April 22, 2008, 05:19:56 PM
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I am thinking on making another character and have some questions first to see what is allowed and what not :
If i get lucky and get the character up through quests , would it be allowed to have approximate the same lvl's in his/her "normal " classes and only a few in the ( hopefully ) prestige class that i want and then switch back to his/her " normal " classes ?
Would it be possible to have more then one prestige class ?
Is it allowed to have one character in one guild and another in another guild ?
With a good written biography , would it be possible to have one really low score on his/her stats ? ( for instance mutilation in captivity to explain a very low charisma score )
Can a character be an official follower of more then one Deity ?
I know i had more when i started this , so i probably ask more a bit later ;)
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1. The rule about five levels always applies. Prior to twenty you must have at least 5 levels in each class. if you take a new class after twenty you MUST take at least 5 CONSECUTIVE levels in the class.
2. Yes you can have more then one PrC (depending).
3. Yes you can have a PC in one guild and another PC in another guild. You CANT have two PCs in the same guild/group.
4. Stat min/max rules are as stated. I dont see an exception being made to them unless it happened in the course of the PCs life and with direct GM interaction.
5. As long as it is not a character of divine nature (cleric, paladin....) then multi deities should be fine.
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Everything Jrizz said is accurate.
To clarify on a few points:
- While it's possible to have more than one prestige class, it is not mechanically possible (in NWN) to have more than three classes, prestige or otherwise.
- While a character can be a follower of multiple deities, they will not gain the advantages of being a worshiper of any one of the deities (ie. clerics of their deities will see them as being Neutral towards them.)
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To clarify the clarification, one should really only have anything in their deity field if they are highly devout. Someone who claims to follow the dogmas of multiple deities is probably not really "devout" but simply "observant." In either case, having multiple deities in one's deity field does not impart benefits of both in a mechanical sense.
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1. The rule about five levels always applies. Prior to twenty you must have at least 5 levels in each class. if you take a new class after twenty you MUST take at least 5 CONSECUTIVE levels in the class.
2. Yes you can have more then one PrC (depending).
3. Yes you can have a PC in one guild and another PC in another guild. You CANT have two PCs in the same guild/group.
4. Stat min/max rules are as stated. I dont see an exception being made to them unless it happened in the course of the PCs life and with direct GM interaction.
5. As long as it is not a character of divine nature (cleric, paladin....) then multi deities should be fine.
So to sum it up :
I could go for say : fighter ( x )/ weaponmaster ( 7 ) / skald ( 5 ) and then go back to taking fighter levels because with 5 skald and 7 weaponmaster i opened up everything in the prestige-classes that i might find interesting ?
a PLAYER can be part of as many guilds as he/she has characters but a CHARACTER cannot be part of more then one guild/organisation ?
It wont be approved on creation , with a well explaining biography , to have one score lower then 8 ?
Having multiple Deities in your Deity field sooner takes away the advantages ( less costs for clerics raising you by way of the same Deity ) then that it gives them ?
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It wont be approved on creation , with a well explaining biography , to have one score lower then 8 ?
From LORE: Character Submission (http://lore.layonara.com/Character%20Submission)
Characters may not have more than one ability stat below an 8 and no more than two ability stats that are 8. No ability may be lower than 6. This includes subrace adjustments so keep that in mind when creating your character.
This means you can have an 6, 8, and a bunch of 9s.
I just noticed that jrizz' "character approval" standard message is actually incorrect. It states, "Only two ability scores can be less than 10 and only one can be less than 8 after racial adjustments."
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A) Well, I don't think you can take Skald levels without Bardsong. So, no, that wouldn't work. But Fighter, Weaponmaster, Duelist would. (As an aside, that would be SICKENINGLY powerful at high-high levels.)
B) A PLAYER can be a part of a theoretically unlimited number of organizations. There's a realistic limit around 18, but...
- Player Bob can NEVER have more than one character in the same Organization.
-Character Jane might be in several Organizations, provided those Organizations are not in competition with each other (i.e. an exploring guild and a trading guild would be okay, but not two trading guilds).
C) As per the min/maxing rules (http://lore.layonara.com/Player%20Rules#3) you could have a character with an ability score under 8 - just not more than one, and not more than two under 9. Do remember that you will have to play all aspects of a given ability, though. Ugliness isn't all Charisma's about, for example.
D) You cannot have multiple deities in your deity field. It just doesn't work. You'll show up (in the code's eyes) as an invalid deity, and will be considered Neutral to everyone.
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A) Well, I don't think you can take Skald levels without Bardsong. So, no, that wouldn't work. But Fighter, Weaponmaster, Duelist would. (As an aside, that would be SICKENINGLY powerful at high-high levels.)
I think the fighter/wm/duelist isn't allowed based on this fact. I seem to remember Chongo or Osx writing something about testing a such character and finding that it was a bit too much for the Layo setting as it is.
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A) Well, I don't think you can take Skald levels without Bardsong. So, no, that wouldn't work.
This is correct.
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I think the fighter/wm/duelist isn't allowed based on this fact. I seem to remember Chongo or Osx writing something about testing a such character and finding that it was a bit too much for the Layo setting as it is.
Well... it's not that it's not allowed, but yes, based on balancing principle I would do everything in my power to make sure this was never approved. That's not to say it's an impossibility. *Points to his desk* The buck don't stop here heh.
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Eh, a fighter/wpnmstr/duelist isn't quite as dangerous as a rogue/duelist/wpnmstr, but both of them take a long time to develop. Your character would be pushing 25th level before he peaked with the former (fighter), and with the latter (rogue), he'd be pushing 30th.
Granted, if you have a ton of playtime, manage a good number of quests, and don't perm (since frontliners tend to die much more often), it's feasible fairly quickly.... but then what? you have this crazy good damage output character... and what for? after you've killed the upteenth monster.... how does the character fit into the world? I personally don't care much about build power if your character is interesting and integrated into the world. If it's just a powerhouse character and not much else, though, why waste the time?
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Eh, a fighter/wpnmstr/duelist isn't quite as dangerous as a rogue/duelist/wpnmstr, but both of them take a long time to develop. Your character would be pushing 25th level before he peaked with the former (fighter), and with the latter (rogue), he'd be pushing 30th.
Granted, if you have a ton of playtime, manage a good number of quests, and don't perm (since frontliners tend to die much more often), it's feasible fairly quickly.... but then what? you have this crazy good damage output character... and what for? after you've killed the upteenth monster.... how does the character fit into the world? I personally don't care much about build power if your character is interesting and integrated into the world. If it's just a powerhouse character and not much else, though, why waste the time?
Actually, since the feats overlap it's super easy to be fully developed pre-epic. And you know... to be fair a duelist/wm makes perfect sense - more sense then almost any other combo in the melee arena perhaps. But having 83 AC and doing 150 damage at a 12-20 range by level 21 is something that I don't think we should allow mechanically.
Anyhow, no more thread derailing from me.
:)
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I always enjoy playing bard/arcane archer combos when I play solo campaigns or mods. Pretty good attack bonus, no wasted wizard levels on tiny little lvl 5 powered spells, a nice healing, singing, markmanship combo with decent social skils, etc. I'm suprised I haven't seen any played thus far, seeing as how well it'd mesh with Ilsare's faith.
Now if skald somehow got into the mix and the character could just terrify the bejebus out of foes, then send volleys of arrows into their backs... that would be truly devastating.
If I ever made a character like that, it'd probably be Celith Xillow's neice, Willow Xillow, lol.
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I'm suprised I haven't seen any played thus far, seeing as how well it'd mesh with Ilsare's faith.
If things go as planned, that will be changed. :)
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Yeah, Chongo, I actually played a rogue/duelist/wpnmstr in the NWN2 single-player expansion when it was released a few months ago. I had all the weaponmaster stuff by 20th, and most of the duelist stuff, but his damage output wasn't awesome until closer to 30th after grabbing a few more feats and more sneak attack. This was mostly due to the fact that I made him a finesse fighter in order to get the rediculous AC. If I had let go of the dex (and AC) and went strength, by 20th he'd have been rediculous in terms of damage. But his AC would have been 1/3 as good, and either way his will save still stunk, heh... actually, his fort save was bad, too. Death magic and mind attacks would obliterate the character in Layo unless he was in a balanced party (mage and cleric).
Which is why you should all play weaponmaster/wizards so you can laugh in the face of an illithid that tries to gut your mind, then turn around and gut the illithid with your sword. ;)
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I did a basic ftr/dul/wm build in my character notes thread... Dunno how you were getting 150s of damage without going STR build. Then again, the one I did was a fairly balanced-out character, rather than focusing seriously on damage or AC. Really matured at about level 22, but picked up some nice stuff post-epic.
Crazy hitpoints; I couldn't figure out what to take in late levels other than Epic Toughness. xD
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Sorry if I'm further derailing this thread, but I simply gotta know: Are there specific combinations of classes that aren't allowed? And I mean both in terms of rules and what DMs what actually approve.
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Well, monks, druids, and paladins have restrictions on their multiclassing:
[lore]Restricted Multiclassing[/lore]
Beyond that, I think there are two types of multiclassing that would be at least suspect, if not outright disallowed. First are the obscene powerbuilds, like weaponmaster/duelist mentioned above. The second would would be builds that just don't make RP sense, Rofi cleric/assassin, undead slayer/palemaster, etc.
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So a build such Fighter/Weaponmaster/Duelist, which makes perfect sense IC, wouldn't be allowed on grounds of being too effective? Even with extensive CDQs, journal writing and IC reasons?
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The problem is that the server isn't geared for "powerbuilds" while there is plenty of challenge for strong characters, the direct powerbuilds would simply dance all over monsters because they are build for semi rp build characters.
Furthermore it should be noted that only a few churchs, Aeridin and Toran I believe are the only, supports the undead hunter class. Other religions have other things that are way more important so their dieties doesn't grant the blessings needed or something along those lines...
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Purely by rule, there are no multiclass which is completely impossible and outright denied. A paladin/monk/assassin is not denied by the rules and could in theory be allowed. However, the more exotic one tries to mix the classes, the greater chance is that they will only remain as "in theory".
Extensive is a very loose term... "no one, to date, has ever been close to even have a chance to qualify" is also falling under that extensive category... which could make it de facto impossible. :)
ps. This is no regard to the particular multiclass you wrote about. All multiclasses are handled on a case-on-case basis.
ps 2. This is only valid for multiclasses. If we take everything together... race + deity + classes + alignment, then one might stumble upon those "not allowed at all" situations. :)
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Alright, I think I'm getting the picture :) Thanks for answering my question, everybody. I'll keep it in mind.
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(be prepared for yet another long long opinionated essay... because work is boring)
I think in the cases of both the Undead Slayer/Pale Master and the Assassain/Paladin, those characters should be made to smite themselves into oblivion. If a paladin truly wanted to become something extreme like an assassain, he should go through a total rebuild and have those paladin levels stripped for something more appropriate, like rogue or fighter/Blackguard. Fallen Paladins should not get to retain their fear immunity and charisma bonuses granted by their gods... Faith and god gave them these abilities, and thus they should waver along with the faith. You can say "oh well they can't use their abilities like spells and turning" but that's not enough IMO. Because if given the chance, how many of our other characters would take the feat "Immunity: Fear" or "Charismatic Saving Throws"? MOST of us would at least take one.
Other NWN class combos that make me cringe from their sheer illogic are the Dwarven Defender/Rogue (dirty sneak attacks, sneaking and lockpicking are NOT honorable, any way you slice it) Rogue/Paladin (even worse!), Aeridenites who take improved crit which only hurts the living, Druid/Wizards who use huge fire spells while in the woods (Ones who use smarter spells are ok), Dragon Disciple Pale Masters, and other such cheesefactor combos.
I am however sad that we have the restrictions on monk and druid multiclassing, since there are a whole lot of classic fantasy archetypes which fall under those classes being supported by multiclassing. Take for example, the Monk/Sorcerer. Brilliant! Leap around hasted and fighting unarmed, shooting fireballs from your fists like a mystical martial arts wujen. Then druid/cleric/undead hunter... how can you get any more aligned with nature than that? You get to preach the word and live it too. Druid/monk for those who want to specialize in animal-based martial arts like Leaping Tiger, Monkey Style, Praying Mantis, etc. Druid/Rogue for truly sneaky and elusive druids that like to blend into the forrests and sneak attack somebody as the bunny from Monty Python. A Monk/Dwarven Defender would be the ultimate sumo wrestler! Big fat naked dwarf just sits there and squats, YOU CANT MOVE HIM!
Technically you can make such combos, but you never get to train them in a manner that doesn't stunt their development, and effectively make them one class or the other while abandoning most of what they learned before. For these reasons above, is why I have always yearned for the skill-based system being implimented in the next version. It's just too restrictive to think of all these different skills in terms of classes, and we'll finally get to pick and choose how our character will be... unarmed fighting druids, Dragonball Z flamethrowing monks, martial artists that study dodging, unarmed and weaponfighting but don't care at all about spiritual development, shapeshifting assassains, etc.
Meanwhile we unfortunately have to work with these chains D&D and Bioware put on us. For example, MOST of the social skills are only in rogue and bard classes. NWN actually has the audacity to suggest that if you have social skills, you are by virtue an unlawful person who sings and stabs people in the back. (my main pet peave with D&D! "I have heavy armor so therefore I am a social pariah")
I do like the loving that Lucindite Paladins get when crossclassing freely with wizard classes, just it doesn't make much sense to me why they couldn't do so with sorceror classes. If anything, a sorceror would be more devout than a wizard in my opinion; Lucinda gave them their powers, in a sense. Sorcerors should above all feel that they are the champions of Lucinda, in my opinion. She "chose" them.
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On another note touched upon by Barion, I am of the firm personal belief that polytheism and practice of multiple religions should be supported. There aren't that many true atheists in a world where prayers are answered before your very eyes, so Monotheism is somewhat moot in the sense of being the belief in just one. Even our own gods warn us of other gods in the scripture, I'm almost certain there would be at least some mention of Pyrtechon in Rofirien's scriptures as being the enemy to be thwarted. On that note, the gods themselves have vastly different portfolios which just don't make sense to pray to them for certain things. You wouldn't pray to Dorand at sea unless you were specifically praying that the shipbuilder's knew their craft, but rather you'd pray to Mist or Katia to quell the storm or Shindaleria to steer the ocean currents. Why would one pray to anyone other than Deliar when betting on a horserace? (ok, maybe to Kitharian to gift the horse with the fleet of hoof, lol) Further, the gods have a very concrete set of alliances between other faiths.
Mechanically, when a cleric raises a follower of another god, his own god will treat them as if they were of the priests own faith if the two deities are the strongest of Allies. (no xp loss for allied raising) In that sense, there's almost a selection of heavenly and hellish "teams" of gods competing and conspiring against one another, in such a manner that many of the gods have a lot of goals in common... "heresy" wouldn't be an issue between them I think. The "all-or-nothing" method of faith is too simplistic for me in a world of godly alliances. One does not praise Thor with one breath and slander Odin with the other, any more that they would follow Rofirien's laws and not call upon Toran for protection of the law. In most of the major pantheons in history, there have been allied faiths and people who follow more than one god, priests of the gods being the only typical exception.
So the common FAITHFUL follower would visit the temples of the gods he liked and avoid the ones he didn't. This whole reflexive response "if you worship more than one, then you're obviously not devout enough to have a diety in your field so make it blank" is both historically inacurrate and illogical to me, and seems more in line with OOC western monotheistic thought than IC devotion. Why would somebody attend temple to both Zeus and his wife Hera and a few other gods if he wasn't devoted to them all? When gods like Prunilla and Deliar are married, wouldn't it be an insult to Deliar NOT to pray to his wife in homage to bless your family? That's just my opinion of course, and the fact of the matter is that the gods have the power to be as jealous and fanatical as they choose to be. ;)
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I have Actually been thinking of making an Monk/Dwarven defender :)
Would be such a cool Dude.. However due to Monks restriction I either must wait until epic lvls untill i can start taking DD lvls. Or if I settle whith just a few monk lvls and start taking DD before 20 But then I get too few Monk lvls cause of the fact I can't take any more of them later on... And he would be verry crippled... Bummer.
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This whole reflexive response "if you worship more than one, then you're obviously not devout enough to have a diety in your field so make it blank" is both historically inacurrate and illogical to me, and seems more in line with OOC western monotheistic thought than IC devotion.
Regarding not being devout enough, I believe it is not in terms of faith but rather loyalty. Sure, you can easily pray to multiple gods (in fact, I think must ought to) but as a cleric/paladin or other devout, you should dedicate yourself completely to one god. By paying special respect and heed to a certain god, and praising him more than the others, you're not excluded from praying to the others, as long as it is only one you "pledge your allegiance" to. You would naturally gain a closer connection to the god in question, gaining all the benefits thereof, and would still be quite free to turn to the other gods when needed.
However, by claiming to be equally devout to to (or more) gods, you would lose the god's favor (he's no longer your favorite? Well, then you aren't his favorite either), you're no longer a devout of Toran's church, you're just a dude who prays to him. At least, IMHO.
Having a diety in your field should reflect your special relationship with that god, making him your god of choice/favorite god and you can't have more than one of those.
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I agree with a lot of what you say Lon... the big issue with monk multiclassing (from my perspective at least), is the massive bug with monks' unarmed attack bonus: A level 5 monk/15 fighter gets something like 18/15/12/9/6/3 Base attack bonus... which is just a bit unbalanced.
Now, that said... a monk of the Adamantine brotherhood/(deep) dwarven defender would be a really fun character :-)
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Sorry if I'm further derailing this thread, but I simply gotta know: Are there specific combinations of classes that aren't allowed? And I mean both in terms of rules and what DMs what actually approve.
From what i understand , EVERY power-build is at-least frowned upon.
Not sure what precicely are power-builds , but i recall taking 5 lvl's barbarian and then go fighter ( or another class ) was one .
Views on power-builds will vary from player to player i guess .
I asked about the double prestige class because i thought taking only minimal lvl's in a class to get to their unique class-feats and then switching to other classes was a power-build-concept as-well , but reading over the answers i guess that is allowed .
Just was browsing LORE and have another question :
Is LORE correct in saying FIGHTERS can take : overwhelming critical and devastating critical ?
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Just was browsing LORE and have another question :
Is LORE correct in saying FIGHTERS can take : overwhelming critical and devastating critical ?
Why should that not be allowed? I should be fairly simple to come up with an IC reason and, IIRC, it's not all that powerful (well, good but not too powerful IMHO).
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All classes are allowed to take Overwelming crit and Dev crit aslong as they meet the prerequisite for it. Problem is that Overwelming crit isn't that big of deal.. its more or less a speedbump for taking the precious Devestating Crit.
But since Dev crit is extremly powerful Layo have changed the prerequisite from 25 in base str to 30. This means You need to invest tons of feats in great strenght to get it and its simply not whorth it..
Atleast not in my opinion ;)
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Why should that not be allowed? I should be fairly simple to come up with an IC reason and, IIRC, it's not all that powerful (well, good but not too powerful IMHO).
Because this from LORE points to the fact you will need " weapon of choice "
OVERWHELMING CRITICALS
Type of Feat: (Epic) Combat
Prerequisite:
Strength 23
21st level
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (chosen weapon)
Power Attack
Required for: Devastating Critical
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon
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Why should that not be allowed? I should be fairly simple to come up with an IC reason and, IIRC, it's not all that powerful (well, good but not too powerful IMHO).
Because this from LORE points to the fact you will need " weapon of choice "
This is a " weaponmaster lvl 1 " feat and you need it to get "owerwhelming criticals " witch you need to take " devastating criticals "
OVERWHELMING CRITICALS
Type of Feat: (Epic) Combat
Prerequisite:
Strength 23
21st level
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (chosen weapon)
Power Attack
Required for: Devastating Critical
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapons critical multiplier is x3, add +2d6 and if the multiplier is x4, add 3d6.
Use: Automatic
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Because this from LORE points to the fact you will need " weapon of choice "
This is a " weaponmaster lvl 1 " feat and you need it to get "owerwhelming criticals " witch you need to take " devastating criticals "
OVERWHELMING CRITICALS
Type of Feat: (Epic) Combat
Prerequisite:
Strength 23
21st level
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (chosen weapon)
Power Attack
Required for: Devastating Critical
Specifics: When using the weapon chosen, the character deals +1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapons critical multiplier is x3, add +2d6 and if the multiplier is x4, add 3d6.
Use: Automatic
That's the difference between "Weapon of Choice" and "chosen weapon". The first regards to the WM 1st level special feat choice upon which all the WM bonuses apply to. The second just describes the weapon which was chosen to gain the bonuses of imp. critical and therefore adds the overwhelming damage as well.
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All classes are allowed to take Overwelming crit and Dev crit aslong as they meet the prerequisite for it. Problem is that Overwelming crit isn't that big of deal.. its more or less a speedbump for taking the precious Devestating Crit.
But since Dev crit is extremly powerful Layo have changed the prerequisite from 25 in base str to 30. This means You need to invest tons of feats in great strenght to get it and its simply not whorth it..
Atleast not in my opinion ;)
Not sure when that was changed then , when i looked all that time back it still said it required 28 ( which i can get to ) and i haven't seen anything indicating it was changed :(
That , together with "chosen weapon " giving others the opportunity to take " overwhelming criticals " and with that opening up " devastating criticals " reduces a "weapon-master" to a simple fighter that is 3 points faster then a " normal " fighter at lvl 13 WM lvl's .
nice to hear the "weapon-master " has been reduced to just that :( , no wonder no-one takes more then 7 lvl's in it ( since you can afford to miss the last +1 on attacks if you can switch it for "epic damage reduction " ...a feat fighters get ...but weapon-masters don't )
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You're wrong about that, Jan.
"Weapon of Choice" is the feat granted to WM at 1st level of the class. It provides no tangible benefit except acting as a prerequisite for other Weaponmaster class features. It represents the WM dedicating him or herself to mastry of the weapon.
One of Overwhelming Critical's prerequisites is Improved Critical. It is listed as "Improved Critical (Chosen Weapon)." This could also read as "Improved Critical (Any Melee Weapon)." (I'm not sure if it works with ranged weapons.)
A Weaponmaster's two greatest class features are Superior Weapon Focus and Ki Critical. In NWN, there's not much else worth having out of the class.
Overwhelming Critical has NEVER required a character to have levels in Weaponmaster.
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Not sure when that was changed then , when i looked all that time back it still said it required 28 ( which i can get to ) and i haven't seen anything indicating it was changed :(
That , together with "chosen weapon " giving others the opportunity to take " overwhelming criticals " and with that opening up " devastating criticals " reduces a "weapon-master" to a simple fighter that is 3 points faster then a " normal " fighter at lvl 13 WM lvl's .
nice to hear the "weapon-master " has been reduced to just that :( , no wonder no-one takes more then 7 lvl's in it ( since you can afford to miss the last +1 on attacks if you can switch it for "epic damage reduction " ...a feat fighters get ...but weapon-masters don't )
As far as I know, in Layonara, ever since the epic levels were opened for everyone without the prerequisite of a ECDQ, the strength requirement for devastating critical has been 30 STR.
Getting the extra critical threat range in addition to the AB and damage from focusing on STR, gives a WM a big edge over the regular fighter, which is even better noticable when the target is prone to them.
Something odd about the Epic Damage Reduction bit, is that the LORE page specifies weapon masters get "Damage Reduction". I'm guessing this is a mistake, because weapon masters do get in fact [LORE]Epic Damage Reduction[/LORE] .
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They can take it as a bonus feat if they meet the prerequisites, as I understand it. They don't get it free.
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They can take it as a bonus feat if they meet the prerequisites, as I understand it. They don't get it free.
No class gets Epic Damage Reduction for free. The prerequisites must be met and the feats must be burned. I only intented to state that WM's can take Epic Damage Reduction as a bonus feat selection.
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Something odd about the Epic Damage Reduction bit, is that the LORE page specifies weapon masters get "Damage Reduction". I'm guessing this is a mistake, because weapon masters do get in fact [LORE]Epic Damage Reduction[/LORE] .
This may be because, in the HotU manual (in my edition at least), the epic feat is refered to as "Damage Reduction".
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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This may be because, in the HotU manual (in my edition at least), the epic feat is refered to as "Damage Reduction".
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
I'd chalk this one up to the regular error filled manuals of NWN. The link should be changed on LORE though, since it's clearly Epic Damage Reduction.
Thanks Script Wrecked
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It's listed correctly everywhere I'm aware of. This was one of the fixes suggested by Pibemanden, and quickly implemented.
Edit: I'm apparently blind. Give me ten seconds and it's fixed.
Edit again: Aaaaand fixed, and documented.
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Not sure when that was changed then , when i looked all that time back it still said it required 28 ( which i can get to ) and i haven't seen anything indicating it was changed :(
That , together with "chosen weapon " giving others the opportunity to take " overwhelming criticals " and with that opening up " devastating criticals " reduces a "weapon-master" to a simple fighter that is 3 points faster then a " normal " fighter at lvl 13 WM lvl's .
nice to hear the "weapon-master " has been reduced to just that :( , no wonder no-one takes more then 7 lvl's in it ( since you can afford to miss the last +1 on attacks if you can switch it for "epic damage reduction " ...a feat fighters get ...but weapon-masters don't )
Dear Jan
Getting epic lvls in WM is not a waste. At lvl 20 WM ( that you will soon be)you will have All the WM benefits, + 7 AB more then a regular fighter, and also you have gotten 3 bonus feats at lvl 13,16 and 19. This means your fighter have extremly high AB and can hit almost everything. Or he can stand in Improved expertise and have +10 AC and still have a good hit ratio due to his high AB ;)
As others have stated. No matter what the bonus feats are in Lore for the specificik class. If you don't have the prerequisite for it you won't be able to choose them.
So if you don't planning to multiclass Barion more and take a third class I would say keep on trucking whith WM lvls... He will be the meanest Bloody swordsman on Layo.. In epic battles when fighting the big Boss or dragons the rest will be hitting air while Barion is bringing it down on it knees whith his Criticals hits..
*cheers*
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The weapon master