I don't mind the loss of soulstrands. Though I think the raised DC becomes a bit harsh and unforgiving at higher levels.
Plenty of people that still die a lot at lvl 17-20, which makes a 17-20 % chance a bit harsh at that point. And not sure it makes sense for me that powerful people are quicker to have strands tethered. Because a higher level doesn't necessarily translate to age or other possible reasons that they could be somehow weaker. (think elves and dwarves with longer life expectancy)
More aften than not, a SS loss disrupts the whole game play and ruins RP. Also, it prevent some RP and a lot of adventuring from happen. I don't care what anyone says about how good it is for them, I can never agree with it nor will I ever be convinced that it is a good system.
I love DTs.................:)
Heh, if I recall this correctly, I got (as poor old Godim) 5 DT's/SS' on Godim's last 5 consecutive deaths *grins*
Turn the system off, put back in severe XP loss, remove the xp loss floor so you can drop levels, and then....
Flip the hardcore switch.
Who else wants to see monsters do 300 damage? Pretty sure I have a smiter in there with a scythe that could probably get you goodies for 1000+.
Just think, we'd have a whole new breed of discontent! DD's would go on strike! Palemasters of Toran would rise from the woodwork!
O.o
It does disrupt journeys and just removes any fun from adventures. The system is said to keep people from taking unacceptable risks, which is quite contrary to anything magic in an online D&D setting...
Long term, there is nothing less fun to see the lack of respect of deaths. Even in the present shape and form, a single death (except the last one) is regarded as "Oh... it happened again... get up, no time to sleep!".
Death should be so horrible on both an IC and OOC scale that it will actually be feared to death. SS system might not be the best, as fear is generally only struck when approaching the last few SSs... a super heavy XP hit sounds more like the system of choice. Funnily... though... those actually being present during that time (not me) tend to think the opposite. :)
Well as we have always said we cant force RP. I myself wince at every SS loss I see but on deaths without SS loss I am chevalier. I treat them more like a beat down then a death.
Long term, there is nothing less fun to see the lack of respect of deaths. Even in the present shape and form, a single death (except the last one) is regarded as "Oh... it happened again... get up, no time to sleep!".
Death should be so horrible on both an IC and OOC scale that it will actually be feared to death. SS system might not be the best, as fear is generally only struck when approaching the last few SSs... a super heavy XP hit sounds more like the system of choice. Funnily... though... those actually being present during that time (not me) tend to think the opposite. :)
It puts me off that whenever people disagree with a Layonara system we get the "it could be worse!" speech.
The number of SS should be hidden from everyone with the exception of the database server manager. There wouldn't be the same feeling of dread and it would just be a suprise ending to your characters life.... at least you'd know you're safe if you died less than 10/15 times.
And that would remove all those requests for SS reimbursement, because you'd never know if you'd lost one!
Quote from: Script WreckedAnd that would remove all those requests for SS reimbursement, because you'd never know if you'd lost one!
that would make a bunch of folks quiet angry.
I would prolly be one of them. could there be a new system? Sure. Could there be a better one? Maybe... Would I EVER support one that keeps knowledge like that from players? Never
This leads me to another question, probalby not for this thread but. Would the mmo imploy somekind of perm system, leaving a person unable to use a character?
Now Quill has 14 DT's/Soul Strand's and I am not scared of having him perm, ..... but I would not have him go knock on Milaras door and ask for sugar.
But, we did take him to knock on Milarra's door with 14 DT Toby!
If you were to join a world with great RP and a plethora of DM'ed events that had a death system that involved a random chance that you would perm on each death after the first ten after third level, you'd (likely as not) accept it.
I would prolly be one of them. could there be a new system? Sure. Could there be a better one? Maybe... Would I EVER support one that keeps knowledge like that from players? Never
Ladies and Gents,
Firstly to Serrisa who picked up a SS last night at the same time as Jacrum. I had fun. My apologies as I was bound to west.
Those of us who still play Layonara are those who have the persona to withstand the loss of characters. Or are lucky enough never to have permed one. I know a friends and players who have left this server because of the nature of the system. With loss of soul strands triggering depression in real-life.
I was thinking an alternative, perma-death system would be:
Allow a total of 10 respawns. That is respawn not deaths.
Allow corpses of characters to carried.
Allow temples to raise a corpse, at the cost of the characters delivering the corpse.
Forced respawn after 2 days game-time. After which time a corpse can no longer be raised.
Addtional, provide more negative HPs. So that if the group of PCs do win the battle then basic first aid and healing may be used to revive some of those fallen unconscious and near death. Ie CPR works if applied quickly.
In this system loss of a soul strand becomes a conscious decision. The character having to pay a toll to the soul mother to return to the plane of the living. There is the hope that they will be raised before a respawn is forced. There are some really good systems for moving corpses and raising the dead on other NWN servers. This system could be used for Layo 2.
Cheers,
Stragen
sarcasm
Yeah, I guess it is better to just metagame how many you have left and let it directly affect your RP.
/sarcasm
So what is the relation of the Soul Mother to the bindstones? Can she still operate without them?
Other than that, I agree, the deathsystem is the worst system implented on Layonara.
What would make it work for you?
Some time ago I suggested a change to the system that would create a hope based system instead of a hopelessness based system. Here is my suggestion (mind you it keeps the SS system):
1. Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level, but make it 2 or 3 not 5 and have the earning go to one every three or four levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. But there will no longer be the hopelessness of "only one SS left". There will always be the hope that you can make it to the next time you can earn one. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul.
Third time posting this solution to your question (it had been asked before):
(the whole weaker/stronger in soul thing is not actually even applicable),
You honestly believe that players would be more attached to their characters if there was no fear of death?
It is a system based on inevitability though. Eventually, everyone will die for the last time.
Like in the real world, there are people who seem to cheat death, and there are those for whom the Reaper comes at the earliest convenience.
Is it "fair"? Maybe, maybe not. It can be argued successfully in either direction, and depends greatly on how one defines "fair".
Life, real or virtual, is full of randomness and luck in both directions.
I'm not sure there will be a system that makes everyone happy and which keeps the intent firmly in place, at least not in NWN.
I don't know about you, but I am not attached to my children because I fear losing them. ... If I thought about losing them everyday, I would probably distance myself from them to prevent the pain and agony of losing them.
... I don't rp thinking that my PC could die. I am not attached to my PC because I fear losing them. I am attached to them because of the 'people' they have become and the relationships that have been made. ...
What is the intent? Does having randomness in the death system contribute to that?
@Jrizz - I can understand the motivations behind your suggestion, to a degree, but I have a number of problems with your proposed implementation. First among them, the "twelve by twenty". At most, this should be ten by twenty. As it stands, many characters make it through to epic levels. A 20% increase in soulstrand count prior to the magic number would make it that much easier to achieve, and cheapen it both for those who make Epic levels after the alteration, and those who made it the hard way, before.
In addition to that, as you so accurately pointed out, people already try to reach 21st level for that magic "recharge". If alternate levels are rewarded with additional soul strands, I can predict that people will view each additional soulstrand as another fencepost to pass. This would go a long way towards encouraging the powergamer mindset - after all, the faster you get through the levels, the faster you get your strands.
Additionally, it favours the established players. That is to say, those people who already have friends on the server could easily say "look, I'm on my last soul strand - can you guys help me level so I can get another?", while those new to the server wouldn't yet have alliances of this sort - whether or not we even want to encourage that behaviour!
As yet another point I hold against the idea, what of those characters already in-game? Do they get an infusion of soul strands? Do characters on their 6th strand already by level 9 simply get killed? Fairness and equity would be troublesome... and the database updates would be a nightmare.
Recovery/regeneration. After three months, realtime, (as an example), any character with less than ten soulstrands would "recover" one. This would allow a player to keep a favoured character - they would simply have to mothball them for some time if they wished to do so. This would actively discourage powergaming, since it would force the player to play cautiously (if at all) if they wanted to keep their in-danger character.
This would also be far easier to implement, and fairer across the board, as all would start out on an even footing, with no more or fewer strands granted until the first time period elapsed.
There would also be a couple of caveats to such a change, in my mind:
- The countdown for strand recovery would begin from the time of the last soulstrand loss. That is to say, if you lost your first soulstrand, and then lost a second a month later, you would recover a soulstrand three months after the second loss. This would both encourage caution and allow for an IC explanation - additional trauma to the soul during the healing process undoes any good that's been done.
- A character would stop recovering soulstrands when their count returned to ten. If they chose to take SMD, any strands from those extra which were cut would be lost forever - if they were fortunate enough to push past 10 when they took the feat.
- Soul Strand refunds would become entirely the dominion of GMs/WLs. If on a quest a GM feels their spawn was unfair, costing one or more characters a strand, they could request the refund. Likewise, if an exceptional death were witnessed, the GM/WL witness could make the request. Any other requests would be deemed spurious - especially since, in the fullness of time, the refund would deliver itself.
The problem with a system whereby everyone gets the same number of deaths regardless will inevitably result in people building for AC and HPs, moreso than now even. The complaint then will become not the randomness, but that if someone goes for an RP build (which we would like to see, of course) over a "durable" build, then that person who chose RP is at a much larger disadvantage than they are now. Sure, RP builds are rarely durable, so even in our current system, they die more often, but at least now there's a pretty good chance they won't lose a Soul Strand.
And since we're not going to get rid of lag, random disconnections or people logging in with 50 lion bags filled with CNR...ever...a system of "X deaths until you're done" is no more "fair" than a randomized one, since there will still be deaths that get attributed to these things, and they will be unfair, potentially moreso, since there's no random chance that it won't count toward your allotment. Every death, IC or OOC, will subtract that number, whether it's your fault or that guy logging in with 50 bags of CNR.
The OOC intent is to maintain a respect for character death and enforce the idea that actions may have consequences, and ill-advised actions often have worse consequences.
Also, there's the idea of encouraging RP over a bashing race up in levels. As for IC intent, some of that I can't get into, so I'll leave it with the OOC for the time being.
But the current system, well let me phrase it this way. If there wasn't a problem with the way things are, then this thread wouldn't be here.
I think there's just as much room in this or another discussion thread to hear not only proposals for change but reasons for keeping things as they are or making only minor adjustments. Both sides are equally valid.
I was referring to relaxing the system just because NWN Layo is ending when I mentioned cheapening....
Personally....I think to relax it just because NWN Layo is going to end actually would cheapen it for all those who have permed previously....That's just my humble opinion of course....
And yes, there have been occasional posts regarding the DT system....But none to the degree that I have seen since it was announced NWN Layo would be ending....Hence why I said it seems people only have serious problems with it since the announcement....Not that no one ever has.
You know...just once, just for once it would be nice to have a personal opinion that wasn't fluffy and cuddly without being made to feel like a criminal for it or having it nitpicked out of context.....
Yes, it's not a popular opinion, but nor was it rude or confrontational....
On another note....I do think it is totally unreasonable to ask people to only post positive opinions in a thread, especially...straight after the first non, fluffy, disagrees with you post
Respectfully, only discussing one side of things is not a discussion, it's a pep rally. :)
Using terms like "hopelessness" contributes to FUD as well. ;)
I'm suggesting an open, and respectful, discussion of all points, not just those in favor of overhauling the system.
It's only a suggestion, and I'm surely not trying to control the discussion...I just don't agree with limiting the talking points to just those in favor of change.
I was referring to relaxing the system just because NWN Layo is ending when I mentioned cheapening....
Personally....I think to relax it just because NWN Layo is going to end actually would cheapen it for all those who have permed previously....That's just my humble opinion of course....
And yes, there have been occasional posts regarding the DT system....But none to the degree that I have seen since it was announced NWN Layo would be ending....Hence why I said it seems people only have serious problems with it since the announcement....Not that no one ever has.
You know...just once, just for once it would be nice to have a personal opinion that wasn't fluffy and cuddly without being made to feel like a criminal for it or having it nitpicked out of context.....
Yes, it's not a popular opinion, but nor was it rude or confrontational....
On another note....I do think it is totally unreasonable to ask people to only post positive opinions in a thread, especially...straight after the first non, fluffy, disagrees with you post
I miss the days of picking up my friends corpse, slugging it back to the nearest temple and waiting for a cleric to come along to help them.
I am sure almost every GM on this server has experienced a tell similar to this:
'I'm going to roll a strength check to carry the corpse' - Why is that so necessary when it can simply be overcome by a corpse being left in replace of a grave stone, and then actually have a weight, so if the PCs pack is light enough, they can carry the corpse, if not, well, it's a long walk back. (minor issue really, but it's happened on more than one quest, both running and taking part in them).
When a player died they would be sent into a limbo - on the server I played on i actually sometimes looked forward to dying to find out some information I was interested in, or hear information I didn't know etc. (and I was very, very suprised how little most of the information was metagamed)
Limbo was a big library of past goings on, stories, jokes, players accounts of events, even a place to sit and just relax :P - Anyway, it was something that made dying bearable, the information changed daily - and you got a new experience with most deaths.
I can recall one time where a person in our party died, we didn't need this person to go on, and didn't have a cleric to resurrect the corpse we now had. Knowing however they would be trapped in this place until some one decided to help, we took the corpse back to a town, and found a cleric to help us, who also ended up joining us, and then also became a good travelling partner for future trips - Death actually helped start RP, here my personal opinion is it doesn't offer an experience anywhere near, not even the same scale as that provided.
Take this situation into mind on layonara, a person in your group dies, but you don't need them and don't have a cleric - four out of five times that person would get left behind I imagine, maybe things would change knowing that the only way for that person to come back is in the hands of the group you left with.
The other option, if you were feeling desperate was to lose about half a level of exp and jump out of limbo, and also be unable to gain any exp for several hours, and lowered stats and a visual effect to show they were currently suffering - We called them plagued :) (a bit like the empty creature system we use)
I was about to write specifics about the system and how "DT" / "shard" losses occur but that will get complicated - but the system did have perma deaths, and they did happen, though rarely, and normally through quests.
*slaps hands on his knees standing* Well thats my trip down memory lane done! I'm not suggesting this as the answer to the current system, bringing it over to layo may not work - may cause too much work because of some of the things within it - and I really do not expect the community to respond to these changes in the same way. Thought I'd just share my personal favourite from the ones I've witnessed.
I think it was mentioned before about a system that only has a chance of SS loss on respawn? If we had a system that you could carry the bodies to get them raised, and then you only had a % chance to lose a SS on respawn, I think that would be great. You keep the randomness factor, you keep permadeath. And it makes sense IC to me that if its the strain of your soul being tethered to the bindstone that cuts a SS -- well, then it should be when you pull on the bindstone that it has a chance to cut. Not when a cleric uses a piece of their soul or a soul stone to bring you back.
And yet, I've played here for well over two years and the only time anyone has seemed to have serious problems with the DT system has been since the new project and the fact NWN Layo will be ending was announced....
So I ask, has it always been a problem or is it simply a problem now the end is in sight so to speak?
And if it is simply because the end is in sight, why?
I think these are important questions....
I personally don't want the DT system to change, nor do I think it should be relaxed because the end is in sight for NWN Layo, I personally think that changes such as that just because it will be ending will cheapen all it has been before.
Ah true! Reading that Lore about how the soul has to travel to the afterlife, I could imagine that the power of the soul would make all nefarious beings trying to consume it look on it as more tastey.
Maybe it's a great idea, but we seem to be in agreement it doesn't fit the current lore. Systems that maintain the world rather than bend or break it will always tend to win in my book.
Soul strands are not part of the soul itself, the way I understand it, but some sort of means of holding the soul and body together.
When a character loses a soul strand, the soul hasn't lost any pieces and hasn't gotten weaker; there are simply fewer strands available to hold the soul to the body.
SMD is not a strengthening of the soul but strengthening of the bind between soul and body.
Soul strands are not part of the soul itself, the way I understand it, but some sort of means of holding the soul and body together.
When a character loses a soul strand, the soul hasn't lost any pieces and hasn't gotten weaker; there are simply fewer strands available to hold the soul to the body.
SMD is not a strengthening of the soul but strengthening of the bind between soul and body.
While I'm intrigued by Jrizz's option #2, the system would make it so that nobody would ever Perm.
If you were on your 9th or 14th SS, you would *always* choose to respawn, and just have to sit out of game for 24 -30 hours. While the loss of play time is a bite, there is no risk for those on their last soul strands at all. Merely respawn, sit out a bit, and get to keep your character. Wash, rinse, and repeat next week.
I don't know, it just makes sense to me that if you don't use the bindstone in a given death, that you aren't subject to its taxes. If I avoid the toll road and drive inner-city, it might take longer but I don't have to pay the toll.
would be that clerics would be much more useful since they could effectively save people not only from death, but from the soul mother herself.
Well yeah that is the case but think about what a real pain it would be to have to sit it out for 24 hours EVERYTIME you die. Now that will give the fear of death. Oh and it would also to the complete end of the refund program
I do think altering established lore, for that purpose or any other, is not something to be taken lightly.And I won't be ;)
I like suggestion 2 the best, as there is still SOME chance of SS loss on death (representing, somewhat, the strain of death), but think that perhaps the lowering by 10 and 20 would be a bit much, while the % offered is too little.
Raise Dead can be cast at level 9, while Res can be cast at level 13.
Perhaps one could roll at 50% of the chance and 25% of the chance, respectively, which still leaves a significant risk for higher levels, but leaves it proportional to those of any other level.
I thought I had explained why the roll happens when it does, but reading the above I guess I was not :)
So: Raise Dead or Resurrection will never have any influence on the Save vs. Soul Mother roll. A Soul Strand has a chance of snapping at the time of death, not at the time of raising/resurrecting/respawning so Raise Dead, Resurrection or Respawn is not in he picture yet at that time.
I am too much out of the mechanics of the spells to comment on the reflections, diamonds etc.
Then... Honestly, what's the point of having two different spells that bring someone back to life? The differences between their effects is fairly minimal.
Ask TSR, Wizards of the Coast, or Bioware, or something :)
Also, it has been stated that Raise Dead and Resurrection have no chance in influencing the Soul Strand loss, and therefore reversing final death itself. if that is the case, why ever bother raising or resurrecting an NPC on a quest? If they're just laying there face down on the ground, then obviously they either never bound at all and are dead for good, just lost their last strand and there's nothing we can do about it, or they are faking it and are too lazy to respawn and jog back from the bindstone.
I've been on plenty of quests where an NPC died and had to be resurrected or raised back from the dead, so the precident is there in history. ;)
I have had a PC perm and I have a PC with 11 lost SS (6 lost to technical issues). In all the time I have been playing I have had only one SS refunded. I know how it feels to lose a PC that you have worked on for a long time I know how it feels to have a PC that you really love to play be near death. I dont play in a reckless manner. I have been playing my current PC for more then 2 years. I have not power leveled him he is not a power build and so I have to live with the inevitable death that will come to him. I say this sucks and it is not fair.
Undying characters in my eyes can never call forth the level of emotions that characters that can and will permanently die do .
What exactly are undead on that token? Strandless souls that never got collected? Stranded souls that had their body defiled too much to reoccupy, but technically didn't qualify for the Soul Mother or Harvester to collect them? Soulless quasi-magical shadows that are simply necromantic imprints of a former consciousness? When we see a ghost of somebody, is that their soul, or is it just a soulless magical construct while the real soul is resting peacefully in the afterlife?
- Why are more powerful souls more attractive? and if that is the case what are they being collected for?There are only two people on this planet who know why. That's Leanthar and myself, so this question will not be answered, sorry for the inconvenience :)
- If people are able to gain a stronger hold on their souls (SMD) why cant there be a defense aganst SS harvesting?Because you're dead at the moment of the SS snap. Being dead, you can't really do anything.
- Why doesn't every person (NPCs I mean) in the world bind to the bindstones?I think I answered this earlier in the thread? Because there's a risk involved in the initial bind.
If that is not possible why do the bindstones only work for adventures?I answered this already as well, they don't only work for adventurers.
Are they the measure of who can be an adventurer?As bindstones do not only work for adventurers, they don't measure who can or can not be.
- If you are not bound, that renders the clerical spells RD and R useless. Why is that?I never said that I believe.
How are the bindstones connected to the gods that grant those spells?I will not disclose any inner workings of the bindstones, nor why they were dormant, nor why they suddenly were active again, nor their purpose.
For that matter, there are also questions which no one is required to know the answer to. "What are they used for?" for example, is something nobody really has any business knowing, unless they want to presume knowledge of what the Soul Mother is doing on her lunch breaks... there is actually a surprising amount of information and theories floating around on the Soul Mother in-game already, so I don't really see why her specifics are important knowledge to us as players of characters, or even GMs of NPCs that do not and cannot know more.Correct. There are theories in game and that's all fine. There are only two in the know, Leanthar and myself, and that will remain that way.
Then there was the age of the Dragoncalled. The bindable (not so fancy a name, eh?) were Summoned by Ozlo for the war against Bloodstone.And then you have to wonder... Ozlo told people to bind. That way people became aware that the bindstones worked. It is not mentioned anywhere that only the Dragoncalled could bind. Only that all Dragoncalled had the ability to. (Don't ask why, as mentioned, I will not answer).
Ozlo dies. No more big dragon to call the ones that can bind and tell them plainly to do so.
Many NPCs have been raised on quests, more than likely even Ed's.No, that has never happened on my quests. And it most likely never will. If somebody kills an (important) NPC on my quests, you don't get a second shot. Actions have consequences, and you will have to deal with them. You won't be getting "Oh we killed him, now let's resurrect him and question him" on my quests. That's too easy. Digressing again :)
From what I have seen and read...this thread is pointless. The majority want a change, a very few like it, the rest don't want to comment due to 'disagreeing with the team', the ones that run it are NOT changing it no matter what suggestions are made...so what is the use, really?If I read that correctly, it's a winded request to lock the thread.
All the great suggestions, all the typing, all the ideas, all the 'Thanks', is only a way to make us feel better. Nothing is going to change. This is just one of those threads I have grown tired of seeing pop up.
Thanks to the people that poured their brains into it and tried to present an improvement.
From what I have seen and read...this thread is pointless. The majority want a change, a very few like it, the rest don't want to comment due to 'disagreeing with the team', the ones that run it are NOT changing it no matter what suggestions are made...so what is the use, really?
All the great suggestions, all the typing, all the ideas, all the 'Thanks', is only a way to make us feel better. Nothing is going to change. This is just one of those threads I have grown tired of seeing pop up.
Thanks to the people that poured their brains into it and tried to present an improvement.
Discussions like these are never pointless. They may not result in changes, but they do help correct misconceptions and improve understanding of the world's background. I don't know about anyone else, but I learned things from this thread. Also, to me personally, they show that people care about Layonara; we all have different ideas of what may be best so there is a lot of disagreement, but we care, which is excellent.
In the end, this isn't an equal club where all of our votes carry the same weight or a pure democracy where the majority rules. We can all express our opinions and offer suggestions, but we, the players, can really only vote with our participation and support. The bosses make the decisions on how they want their world to be, and our opinions and suggestions may not always fit into the grand scheme or be worth the effort.
But when people are told to 'stop whining and start making recommendations' with false hopes that something may actually change, that is where is crosses the line from 'community cares' to 'lead by a carrot'.
I thought we were talking about the death system so that it could be adjusted for the MMO if a good idea came along.That is at least my main interest.
A crazy idea off of eight-bit's: How about a LORE jeopardy-like quiz game? If you're part of the world and know the info, then you get a better chance at avoiding death.
I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls. Is everything unfair?
I feel like I've missed the point and I ask for clarification, please. What, specifically, is unfair about random numbers or random chance?
I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls. Is everything unfair?
Almost all dice rolls in the game are expressions of what we are doing with a character, and if we want a better chance for a specific kind of roll, we can put points into a skill or an ability, take feats, etc.
The SS roll, on the other hand, is just random. Not an expression about the character's skills, ability, talents, plus a bit of chance, but just a pure random roll.
Other types of random rolls don't have nearly the same consequences as an SS roll... every once in a while, you may be faced with a roll on a quest with huge consequences, but other than that, very few times in the game will you be faced with a purely random chance that has the same potential.
Finally, most (except for some little used skills) other rolls that a character makes, will be rolled so many times over the course of a character's life that things even out a bit more.
With the relatively few number of deaths a character can have, the likelihood that some characters will perm after a few deaths is pretty high, and that more than anything else, is what seems unfair to many.
Tech Issues: #1 issue - bugs, lag, and system flaws/glitches are not the players' fault. Don't punish the players for the server's issues. Tough one to address - there will always be tech issues of one kind or another, and no paying customer is going to be happy about losing a character to a bug.
Limited Returns: Barring GM/WL witnessed tech issues above, its a slippery slope downward with no chance of climbing back up save that 3mil barrier and a feat. IC return system, however easy or difficult and whether strands are regened or purchased, would take some of the pressure of inevitability due to #1 off.
Roleplay enhancement: System does not inherently do anything for roleplay. (What a player himself adds does not count.) At times, does the opposite because of issue #1. Generally ruins trips instead of ending them with a story worth telling.
Player Control: Roll vs Soul Mother system takes strand lossage out of player hands and leaves it up to chance. Many would rather have a harder system than leave it up to luck.
Fairness: Characters built for survival should not have a better chance to "win" than flawed characters, simply because of power level...likewise, people who simply are not the best players should not have a higher chance to perm, or perm those around them, because they are not those out "to win."
World Lore: The system cannot contradict established world lore, parts of which are known only to Ed and Leanthar. This one is especially hard to work with, as there are unknown factors.
Entertainment: I don't think I would write this as a primary concern as some of the others were, but it does seem that making death or strand loss more interesting in itself is a sentiment floating around. Perhaps this is just Integration and RP enhancement, though. "Fun" is always a factor, in any case - 24 hour wait times are not fun.
Presence, or in-game integration: The bindstone system as it is has often felt "tacked on" or an additional mechanic to make sure PCs stick around. Explanations given here and there have been at times on the spot or as yet undefined. Any permadeath system should be one of the most important systems in the game and have a heavy presence that is integral to the world, not a stray mechanic that both gives an excuse for PCs to keep coming back, and makes ending them a distant possibility.
I feel like I've missed the point and I ask for clarification, please. What, specifically, is unfair about random numbers or random chance?
I'm confused because, as a dice-based game, the entire system is based on a bunch of random rolls. Is everything unfair?
Almost all dice rolls in the game are expressions of what we are doing with a character, and if we want a better chance for a specific kind of roll, we can put points into a skill or an ability, take feats, etc.
The SS roll, on the other hand, is just random. Not an expression about the character's skills, ability, talents, plus a bit of chance, but just a pure random roll.
Other types of random rolls don't have nearly the same consequences as an SS roll... every once in a while, you may be faced with a roll on a quest with huge consequences, but other than that, very few times in the game will you be faced with a purely random chance that has the same potential.
Finally, most (except for some little used skills) other rolls that a character makes, will be rolled so many times over the course of a character's life that things even out a bit more. With the relatively few number of deaths a character can have, the likelihood that some characters will perm after a few deaths is pretty high, and that more than anything else, is what seems unfair to many.
Yep, I agree. But when people are told to 'stop whining and start making recommendations' with false hopes that something may actually change, that is where is crosses the line from 'community cares' to 'lead by a carrot'.
An example is there is a player that has had 57 deaths and lost one soul strand and another that has had 57 deaths and lost nine soul strands. One more death and they could perm.
It is really frustrating to hear a player that has had over 100 deaths and lost one or two soul strands.
After one of my character's permed I had a lot of people talk to me about how they didn't like the way the system is.
Just it seems they don't want to come out and speak against it. They want to stay out of it to not cause "waves" and I can completely understand that! No one wants the team upset with them. Because we all enjoy playing here and want to continue to.
Just want a more fair chance to keep our characters.
I apologize if I seem to be reiterating something that some feel is overused, but no one is going to get banned for disagreeing with the team.
Something worth mentioning might be that some people with lots and lots of deaths might have skewed numbers because of the load of dying that occurred with the Soul Mother's vacation. Randomness means that some will have more deaths than others, but it is hard to get an accurate statement of exactly how many there are.
((Edit: Gulnyr and I are apparently typing over each other's shoulders or something.))[/SIZE][/I]
Thank you for the example. How is that unfair, specifically, though, rather than just unfortunate? Did not each character have an equal chance despite choice of build, class, equipment, or other factors, and one simply come up unlucky?
For this, would it be less frustrating to have a system like Osxmallard suggested where no one knows how many soul strands anyone has remaining, making perming a complete surprise? Would that eliminate the frustration, since no one could make any definite statement about how many strands were lost? To expand the thought, is the randomness really your objection, or is it the fact that characters can perm at all?
Did they offer any specifics? Were they opposed because of the method alone, or because your character was forever gone?
I understand. As long as posts are respectful, no one will get banned for them. I've had some pretty strong opinions on things, and still do, and the posts on those topics have never come close to netting me a ban, or even a suggested short vacation. Opinions are welcome, usually, even if they are critical of part of the world.
I'm starting to feel that we are not all using the same definition of fair...
Whats wrong with breeding surviors? Is that a bad thing? So we should want some players to perm? If so we need to due away with SS reimbursements then it will be more fair.
I understand - shut up and sit down and let someone else say something, right? ;)
*sighs* That is not what I meant... But I will shut up now.
I never meant that anyone was afraid to they would get banned. Just some do not like to speak out on such a strong topic. Thats all. :(
To me, letting things be too reliant on luck is unfair, and I think you're drawing a false distinction there. To give a hyperbolic example, if every character had a random number of SS given at character creation, and some got only one, and some got a thousand, I think we could agree that it is unfair to give characters such drastically different survival chances, even if everyone has the same random probability.
For the most part, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I just reach the opposite conclusion, that giving a set number of deaths is a more "fair" system.
(btw, thanks for taking the time to make the suggestion summary, it helps focus things a bit).
I'm starting to feel that we are not all using the same definition of fair... {196 (http://forums.layonara.com/985822-post196.html)}
Thank you for the example. How is that unfair, specifically, though, rather than just unfortunate? Did not each character have an equal chance despite choice of build, class, equipment, or other factors, and one simply come up unlucky? {196 (http://forums.layonara.com/985822-post196.html)}
This doesn't sound like a question of fairness but one of luck. Unfortunate, yes. Unfair, no. Everyone had an equal chance (fair), but it went badly for some (unlucky). {192 (http://forums.layonara.com/985732-post192.html)}
I feel like I've missed the point and I ask for clarification, please. What, specifically, is unfair about random numbers or random chance? {188 (http://forums.layonara.com/985552-post188.html)}
To expand the thought, is the randomness really your objection... {196 (http://forums.layonara.com/985822-post196.html)}
Two identical individuals, but one lives, one dies, for the sake result of a die roll. That is the unfair part.And, if you'll excuse the expression, to be fair... That's the prime mechanic in a game based on tabletop RPGs. A die roll.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
Also, factor in arena deaths, which are "free" in that they're generally without consequence.
Now I don't have the code or anything but I do have Storolds death count and looking at that I don't believe that arena deaths count is counted into your total death count. I believe they were removed at some point since I -think- I remember my death count taking a rather drastic drop at some point. Sorry for the of topic comment but just trying to clear this up.
The outcome created by the random numbers or random chance is unfair. That is what people are complaining about.
The use of chance in the system is not fair. It creates arbitrary results.
Is that unfair in any system or only in the death system? If Fisterion attacks two characters with identical AC and low HP, hitting one and missing the other because of a die roll (random number), killing the former and sparing the latter, is that unfair?
If two moderately skilled tailors each have the same percentage chance of making a certain item, and one rolls high while the other rolls low, meaning the latter fails to create an item that the former, equally skilled tailor made, is that unfair?
These seem to be the same to me as the roll for loss of soul strands in the death system, where one may get a favorable roll and another an unfavorable one. These don't seem unfair; they seem to be the sorts of things that happen in real life. Sometimes chance really is the deciding factor. If a tornado destroys your house and leaves your neighbor's house more or less intact, that isn't unfair but the luck of the draw. The consequences are irrelevant to whether or not the system was applied fairly; they just make some bad rolls seem a lot worse. The death system, after all, is not any more or less fairly applied than the crafting or combat systems; it just feels worse to lose a soul strand than the materials for a pair of boots or a hundred hit points.
These seem to be the same to me as the roll for loss of soul strands in the death system, where one may get a favorable roll and another an unfavorable one. These don't seem unfair; ...
... They seem to be the sorts of things that happen in real life. ...
... Sometimes chance really is the deciding factor. ...
... If a tornado destroys your house and leaves your neighbor's house more or less intact, that isn't unfair but the luck of the draw. ...
... The consequences are irrelevant to whether or not the system was applied fairly; they just make some bad rolls seem a lot worse. The death system, after all, is not any more or less fairly applied than the crafting or combat systems; it just feels worse to lose a soul strand than the materials for a pair of boots or a hundred hit points.
Thank you for your explanation. I understand better what is being said now.
Still, I have to continue to disagree, as applying a system to create fairness at the outcome seems like it would remove a lot of the surprise and "life" from everything.
If dying automatically removed a soul strand, say, which is a fair system applied to the outcome, or if each character were allowed one hundred deaths (same thing, just more "strands", basically), then a certain playstyle and build would be promoted.
I'm not trying to say an outcome-focused system can't work, but that a system that treats everyone the same mechanically regardless of choice of build or role for the character or the playstyle of the player seems best overall for the longevity and success of the game.
I am also saying that, in my opinion, the surprises and chaos of random numbers are an important part of the fun, even if they don't always leave us happy.
There was a thread (http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/117282-put-soul-mother-rest-maybe-perhaps.html) a while back, about a year ago, that ended up talking about a lot of the same things this thread discusses. While reading and responding in that thread, I came up with an idea I didn't post because it didn't matter then (since that thread was supposed to be about doing something for the NWN system and not the future system). That idea was to have both strand-losing permadeath gung hos and never-die permalife softies on the same servers at the same time. The player would choose which to make her character when the character was created. The trade-off would be the concept that greater risk leads to the chance of greater reward. So gung hos could achieve the highest ranks in organizations, unlock the most elite skills, and possibly even have special quests just for them, though they could die permanently trying to get there. Softies would not be able to reach the tip top and might miss out on some nice plotty things, but the players of those characters could never, ever permanently lose them, which might help draw in the folks who don't want to pay for the chance of permanent loss. I have no idea if that's a good idea, but there you go. Maybe something like it could help settle the issue - "You may choose to take your chances with our permadeath system and possibly reap the rewards of the risk, or you may choose to take the safer path and forfeit your chances at the greatest glories." That way, you consciously sign on to the chance of losing your character forever.
Having the choose your path scenario could work in a pay to play world but only if both paths have the same chance of high influence in the world. Restricting access to the more action fun areas due to the path you choose might be hard for business.
But if the path choices took the player in totally different directions (areas, items, world NPC interaction) that could end up in the same place (like being a WL) now that would be an interesting way to go. The ones who choose a life of less risk could go down a path that has them more involved with the high politics of the world and be champions of the people were the ones that choose a more risky path would be the action heros called on in when all other negotiations fail.
If you are doing exactly what your fellow craftsman is doing, and he turns out ten items, and you turn out five, I would call that unfair.
No, sorry, where one may get a favorable roll and another an unfavorable one is unfair. Disparity = unfairness.
Do you want "real life" in the death system?
Whether you accept an outcome as "luck of the draw" is an attitude to the outcome, not whether the outcome is fair or not. This attitude is in fact used to rationalise why an unfavourable (or unfair) result has just happened to me when I'm such a nice person, viz "it wasn't personal, it was just luck-of-the-draw".
I believe that is the main reason to incorporate randomness into a system is to create uncertainty. The question is how much uncertainty is to be applied?
A certain play style is promoted for the current death system. A certain play style will evolve for whatever death system is used. This is unavoidable. The death system influences the style of play.
Next idea, then. Perhaps if an XP penalty were enforced upon death for the non-stranders. Ripping away a portion of the energy you've grown, rather than tearing at tethers that - however disturbing it may be - don't exactly harm you when they're cut.
Okay, just to define 'fair' a little more, I personally feel that 'unfair' implies intention. To be unfair, someone needs to do it on purpose, to say it roughly. There has to be some act of impartiality. Random and/or unexpected events are no one's fault, no one set them in motion to do anything, so they can't be unfair by my definition.
I like the way SZ was going with the "choose your poison" path. You can have SS or you can have XP loss. This way it is the consumers (players) that decide what is better.
If you think about it we already have the gung-ho and softy choice now. The gung-ho players are out there taking big risks in tough areas to gain most of their XP and the softies are gaining most of their XP from quests and the like which in general are a lower risk way of getting XP in that you are getting XP the whole time you are playing, not just in battle. Of course that path has its risks as well since GM run fights tend to be much harder then AI run fights :)
I was wondering:
1) what people would think if it was possible to re-attach a SS and
2)how much they would be willing to "pay" for the re-attachment of a SS.
3) how easy or hard this should be (i.e. only for high levels, or for everyone, or only on certain quests, or for a bunch of True, or... you name it)
If (please note the word "if") we would implement such a thing, I would think that this would compensate (at least somewhat) for SS loss due to lags, disconnects or other technical glitches.
The first sign of weakness is to consider the possibility...
I was wondering:
1) what people would think if it was possible to re-attach a SS and
2)how much they would be willing to "pay" for the re-attachment of a SS.
3) how easy or hard this should be (i.e. only for high levels, or for everyone, or only on certain quests, or for a bunch of True, or... you name it)
If (please note the word "if") we would implement such a thing, I would think that this would compensate (at least somewhat) for SS loss due to lags, disconnects or other technical glitches.
I was wondering:
1) what people would think if it was possible to re-attach a SS and
2)how much they would be willing to "pay" for the re-attachment of a SS.
3) how easy or hard this should be (i.e. only for high levels, or for everyone, or only on certain quests, or for a bunch of True, or... you name it)I like the idea of it being a certain quest. A dangerous one with risk proportional to the reward... Not just a "Here is 1,000,000 true, I'd like a soul strand returned" But true and items work -- though, wondering what the soul mother does with those ;)
It does, it definitely does. I do want to say how much it helps is proportional to the price of course, I mean... If they were entirely unobtainable like... "You must deliver 100 blond hair blue eyed orphans to the plane of the lost on the 5th day of the 13th month when both moons are in the sky, directly before a purple and green sunrise while supplementing your gift with 1,000,000 true, seven sets of enchanted mithril amour, a leaf from the great oak, and the claw of a fire breathing dragon, while riding on Rofirein himself!" Then it helps a little less ;). But I don't think it cheapens the system if the price* is high but obtainable, and it does instill hope.
If (please note the word "if") we would implement such a thing, I would think that this would compensate (at least somewhat) for SS loss due to lags, disconnects or other technical glitches.
1) what people would think if it was possible to re-attach a SS
2)how much they would be willing to "pay" for the re-attachment of a SS.
3) how easy or hard this should be (i.e. only for high levels, or for everyone, or only on certain quests, or for a bunch of True, or... you name it)
Just to make sure, we are still talking about the MMO here.
I was wondering:
1) what people would think if it was possible to re-attach a SS
2)how much they would be willing to "pay" for the re-attachment of a SS.
3) how easy or hard this should be (i.e. only for high levels, or for everyone, or only on certain quests, or for a bunch of True, or... you name it)
I was wondering:
1) what people would think if it was possible to re-attach a SS and
2)how much they would be willing to "pay" for the re-attachment of a SS.
3) how easy or hard this should be (i.e. only for high levels, or for everyone, or only on certain quests, or for a bunch of True, or... you name it)
If (please note the word "if") we would implement such a thing, I would think that this would compensate (at least somewhat) for SS loss due to lags, disconnects or other technical glitches.
- You're at 9 SS's lost, you now have the option to seek out an NPC healer and be set back to 'half-strength' with your soul, or 5 SS's remaining. The process of doing this weakens you, you lose half your total experience, and lose a point of constitution (white not green, so permanent). You can do this as many times as you want until you bottom out on that stat (i.e. 3). So let's look at an example.
Character A facing imminent death, and goes to the NPC. The process occurs, and at 20 million experience, he loses 10 million, and all the levels that go with that. His constitution of 18 is reduced to 17, and where the maximum +12 'buffed' constitution was once 30, it is now 29. In the process of regaining strength to the attaching strands, he went from 9 SS's to 4 SS's lost. Were he to have had SMD, and were at 14 SS's, he would go to 9 SS's lost.
But it shouldn't be made to breed exclusivity (i.e., don't make it a million gold). When we do things like making this process require a certain epic level, or an epic item, or an absurd amount of gold... we reap what we sow.
1)
- You're at 9 SS's lost, you now have the option to seek out an NPC healer and be set back to 'half-strength' with your soul, or 5 SS's remaining. The process of doing this weakens you, you lose half your total experience, and lose a point of constitution (white not green, so permanent). You can do this as many times as you want until you bottom out on that stat (i.e. 3). So let's look at an example.
Everybody's always cursing her name when loved ones die, tricking her with phylacteries, trying to kill her... but does anyone ever really think about HER feelings?
Just for the sake of discussion, that would make the healer NPC more powerful than the Soul Mother.
much like matter/antimatter in science fiction,
Here are a few:[LIST=1]Steve Maurer
- Add "retying" a Soul Strand as a quest reward that GMs are allowed to offer - specifically something the non-violent Churches like Aeridin and Az'atta can do. This isn't something done every day, but I see no reason why if magicians have learned a secret "Soul Mother defense", the Gods themselves should not be able to reknit a Soul Strand for mortals they're particularly happy about (knit one, perl two).
- Make sure quests offering such rewards are not tilted towards the ultra powerful PCs - to the Gods, purity of service to them, would likely be more important than PC power. (Note: this reward need not be advertised either.)
- Add an additional XP "bite" that PCs are subject to, as an entirely different roll on death. (Soul Mother - yum.) The strength of this bite is dependent on your level and how many Soul Strands you have left (i.e. your soul is chewed on a percentage basis, and very few strands makes your soul very easy to chew).
- Make it so that XP of this bite can be healed (the XP returned) by a Raise Dead (say, 100,000 XP) or Resurrection (maybe 200,000 XP) spell if cast within a specific time limit (tick tick tick - your soul is bleeding - tick tick tick), so long as the PC has not respawned. Maybe make it so that closer the alignment, the more the XP returned is (with full XP restoration being possible by being Resurrected by the cleric of your own God).
- Add potential alignment alteration penalties for clerics/paladins for resurrecting people of significantly different alignments, to make this not something that happens automatically.
- Give scrolls of Resurrection/Raise Dead alignments. "Raise Dead - Good", "Raise Dead - Neutral", etc.
- Let logged-in GMs check out a SS-loss undo wand for any of their registered quests. Misclicks or server overloads on popular quests seem to simply happen too often to keep bothering the DB team with.
Interesting analysis.