The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on May 16, 2008, 05:40:42 PM
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To date, I have avoided entering Hempstead with my halfgiant PC(s). The one exception was being escorted ICly to deliver the kobold stick quest.
I would like to confirm that if my halfgiant were in possession of a signed ingame parchment stating his business within the city, he might be allowed to conduct select business there. The business being crafting and delivery of crafted items to a city's resident.
Would this be appropriate?
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Where would he get said parchment? It would have to be something recognized by the city authorities, which would require someone of known status to vouch for him and/or he has to have proven his worth/goodness/safety in some way.
Crafting can be done elsewhere.
Understand that we don't want other PCs simply writing "passes" to prohibited races to get past the laws.
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I was thinking another high level / well known PC would write it.
Should I submit for a CDQ for this instead? Or is it flat-out "No?"
I'm imagining a dock worker with papers, so to speak.
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It's not a "flat-out no"...but those PCs who are on the "Allowed" list are very few and have earned the right through some means other than being doing odd-jobs for an established character...and they have been around for a good long time.
And again, it has to be recognized by the city authorities, which means a GM needs to be involved at some point. Just a note from a high level PC isn't enough.
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If it had been Lor, you could've asked Angela Swann, as she's a person of authority there.
However, to my knowledge, there is no PC who has any official ranking or post of authority in Port Hempstead's authorities. Sure, there may be PCs that are well known, but still...
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From [lore]Half Giant[/lore]:
Half Giants are as hard as the life they lead. Like most half-breed races, Half Giants are usually never fully accepted by either of their parents races. However, their natural strength and health make them hearty workers. Among Humans (http://lore.layonara.com/Humans), a Half Giant can usually pass as a Barbarian (http://lore.layonara.com/Barbarian) due to his immense size and sturdy build.
Relations:
Half Giants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than, say, Half Elves. They dislike Half Orcs (http://lore.layonara.com/Half%20Orcs) and find Elves (http://lore.layonara.com/Elves) to be self-centered and distant. Half Giants are generally creatures of strength and action and they will work well with those of similar mentality, barring Half Orcs.
The entry goes on to continue to compare Half-Giants primarily to Humans, strongly implying that they fit well into human culture, as they are simply so human-like (rather than giant-like).
This has been briefly addressed before, (http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/165962-half-monsters-hempstead.html) but a reasonable conclusion wasn't reached.
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That doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead.
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I think what he's trying to say is that his Half Giant might pass as a large, heavily built Human Barbarian, and not make people think he is a half giant.
Now at the same time, Giants are well known for not having ANY body hair anywhere, and a big burly hairless man might raise eyesbrows and give him away... But I think he's trying to make his HG pass has just a Big Ugly, Muscled Human
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Not to mention that half giants "typically stand 6 ½ to 8 feet in height and weigh from 250 to 400 pounds." Sure, a small half-giant may be dismissed as a huge hairless human, but an 8 foot, 400 pound something is going to attract attention no matter what race they are...
Maybe a bit off-topic, but this is one of those things that characters (of all races, not just monstrous ones) often forget, how their appearance affects social interaction. *walks up to the elf, standing inches away, towering above her even when slouching* may be very different from *draws himself up to his full height to meet the human's gaze*
Bottom line, make sure you know how big your characters are, and make sure you aren't towering over tall humans one moment, then trying to blend in amongst them the next. :)
(incidentally, it makes me very happy to see that some people actually think about whether or not IC it makes sense for their characters to enter Hemp... I miss the atmosphere in Vehl right after v3, when monstrous races actually used it instead of Hempstead)
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For the record, I'm in no way trying to hide his halfgiantness (is that a word?). On the contrary, imagine him being used more as an oxen. He's an "it" not a person; a lowly contraption some wealthy citizen has put to use.
I would never sit by the fountain, or rub elbows in the Mug, or such. Speaking of which, my halfgiant has been to Hempstead one other time: He sailed in burdened with wood and was escorted by the paying human to and from the crafthall and kitchen. He then immediately was escorted out of the city. An oxen, nothing more.
I tend to agree with the team's decision not to grant ad hoc permission through this means. You know that someone would abuse it and go flouncing around the city in a tiny miniskirt with drow legs showing. "Oh, but I'm just a maid in so-and-so's house!"
Give us players an inch, and we'll jimmy that crack open until it's a gaping hole.
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On the flip side, whenever Earl sees an epic drow sitting on a bench and tells Trent, he says that they're an exception. So if there are exceptions, I would like the prerequisites for which firmly stated. I was even threatened with prison time when I asked who his direct superior was over the matter, heh. No matter what reputation a drow has, that doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead. If there is such an "Allowed List", then I would like to see it publicly posted, if only to protect the exceptions from angry mobs of the citizenry.
It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct?
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On the flip side, whenever Earl sees an epic drow sitting on a bench and tells Trent, he says that they're an exception. So if there are exceptions, I would like the prerequisites for which firmly stated.
There will be no prerequisites defined, there's are more important things to define at this point in time with everything that we're doing, which I'm sure you can understand.
I was even threatened with prison time when I asked who his direct superior was over the matter, heh.
And rightly so, because you're questioning an officer on duty :)
No matter what reputation a drow has, that doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead. If there is such an "Allowed List", then I would like to see it publicly posted, if only to protect the exceptions from angry mobs of the citizenry.
If the angry citizenry would be aware of said dark elf, and if such a list was easily put there in game without a module change, then maybe.
It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct?
Yes, you can assume that. But as you know, we do not have GM possessed guards 24/7, so if everybody just waltzes through the gate and pretend nothing happens then there's little we can do apart from having a GM presence there all the time or actively enforcing it should we become aware.
And I would think people would agree that GM time is better spent on running quests, then policing Hempstead 24/7.
Cost/benefit assessment: high cost, low benefit.
Half-giants are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead, so you'd be turned away at the gates, as would a dark elf.
We made the Vehl/Hempstead distinction to give people playing "monstrous" races a city of their own with its own atmosphere (unlike which was the case when we "only" had Hlint). It's not the idea to throw that overboard by making or thinking up exceptions.
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Dark Elf at Hempstead gates are subjected to attack on sight if I'm not mistaken
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Surely can't just say "And rightly so, because you're questioning an officer on duty" in a blanket statement to all officials anywhere. Different reasons for different NPCs, right? :P It isn't some kind of LE false-Rofireinite hotel where even thinking about questioning someone's authority can bring the threat of righteous justice on you because just asking must mean you're suspicious. The city by order/priority/whatever you lump things together by is Neutral Good and supposedly Trent was chosen very young to captainhood because of kindness and a good heart. It seems like half the time when someone brings up half decent questions, it doesn't really matter because we spend as much time making reasons for things after they already occur a certain way, instead of just making them occur to go along with existing reasons - such as the whole half monsters thing. It's not really a hem haw maybe this maybe that kind of thing, it was wrong to have some of them on the list according to everything previously established, certainly without any kind of reason.
If we say they are okay and are around and stuff one day and then the next day post a sign saying they are banned from a major port city - not a fortress, a hugely traveled port - then something had to have happened. They must have gone bigots and decided half breed genocide was on the list. They must've been Prantz indoctrinated to just suddenly post something like that, since posting it in the first place is not really even necessary for a normal city...not like orcs can read nor be deterred by a sign. But no, they're NG, half orcs worked the docks and other such labor positions, half giants were accepted in the human lands... then because someone typed them on a sign we have to explain away the last 30 RP years, hehe. I probably sound angry, but it's not really that (although dying with triple digit heat). I'm just trying to illustrate why it seems so weird to me that we try to change the whole established attitude for a people and the reasons and the alignments and the xyz for a couple of words that were just lumped together on a kinda OOC sign outside a starting city.
Kind of like reasoning well, Trent could have been corrupted and disheartened by his position and has grown to be something of a jerk with a taste for power in recent years...instead of just thinking maybe he could be played nicer, heh.
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I agree that some sort of reasonable IC justification be made. I'm not a fan of "It's like this because we say so"...
Now sure, I understand more important things are in the works, but I would think justification and reasoning would have been something to be tagged along with the "no half giants/orcs" rule/sign-making decision, especially with a good amount of Previously RP and Lore made no indication of Half Giants or Half Orcs being viewed as monsters, or at least being forbidden from a huge Port City, as Acacea mentioned. A city like that would be the kind of place all sorts of people would wander through.
Now I'm not saying the "No orcs, Drow, goblin" rules are wrong, but with Lore Saying Half Giants are tolerated by humans, I'm just one of the ones wishing a reason for the city being off limits to them be more explicit, other then "We have Vehl for them," or "because thats how we wanted it" or whatever.
And to concer with Acacea, Trent threatening someone who questions him is sorta LE, or at least not LG, as Trent should be as a Captain of the Silverguard.
I'm hoping it'll be in the new handbook, why things are as they are...
And also, Port Hempstead is a great deal more details about where things like Shops and Trade halls are, and Also has a great deal more access to other important ports like Mariner's Hold and Leringard. Infact the only Port to Mariner's Hold I know of IS Hempstead...
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Alright...
ICly speaking, this law went into effect during the "Dark Ages", which was a time of difficulty for everyone around the world. For good or ill, people "circled the wagons" for mutual protection and welfare. Whatever the alignment of the city may be, and whatever is "generally" accepted (i.e. half-giants generally accepted by human societies), the law for Port Hempstead became one that is, essentially, discriminatory to certain races based solely on appearance together with history (in the case of dark elves) and the FUD factor (i.e. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
OOCly, there are a few factors. First, this law was put in place shortly after v3 went live, and was more or less in line with the idea of two starting cities...one which is considered more civilized (Port Hempstead) and one which is rather less-so (Fort Vehl). Also, it came on the heels of new starting alignment requirements for characters of such races. Lastly, and something to not be discounted because we continually remind people of this, the actions of a few players who either did not care enough or were simply incapable of properly RPing the aspects of one or more of these races caused us to institute yet more rules. Yes, this is the few spoiling it for the many, but it came after repeated requests by the GM Team, not to mention verified reports by the player base. So file that one under "actions have consequences," because that's, in part, the reasoning behind the rules for Port Hempstead.
Now, to the original question...
Your character is new, and while I'm confident in your personal ability to properly RP the half-giant racial aspects and the like, and also while I have no personal doubts as to whether or not you will in fact limit your time in Port Hempstead to being an "ox" or "errand boy" or whatever, the fact is that he either needs respected sponsors who are willing to bring his case to the Port Hempstead authorities or he needs to become established and well-known over time. The former will ultimately require some level of GM interaction, whether through a CDQ or other means, the latter will just take time.
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And also, Port Hempstead is a great deal more details about where things like Shops and Trade halls are, and Also has a great deal more access to other important ports like Mariner's Hold and Leringard. Infact the only Port to Mariner's Hold I know of IS Hempstead...
You can get to Mariner's from Fort Vehl as well. And for what it's worth, we're not going to come down on a member of a restricted race for being mechanically required to stop through Port Hempstead to take a boat to Leringard, for example. At the same token, they shouldn't leave the area of the ships and probably not even RP getting off the boat.
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If the angry citizenry would be aware of said dark elf, and if such a list was easily put there in game without a module change, then maybe.
I may have the easy solution here, but why not add a section to the forum (rp section) where the laws and rules for lands/cities/town could be posted. And if there is a list for those town of people allowed in that has earned it, to post it there too. Like that, it could be taken as if posted in the town/cities itself. There is already some sections for the major Inn's, maybe add under each in that represent a major city, a thread with the pertinent rules and regulations and names if applicable.
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On the flip side, whenever Earl sees an epic drow sitting on a bench and tells Trent, he says that they're an exception. So if there are exceptions, I would like the prerequisites for which firmly stated. I was even threatened with prison time when I asked who his direct superior was over the matter, heh. No matter what reputation a drow has, that doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead. If there is such an "Allowed List", then I would like to see it publicly posted, if only to protect the exceptions from angry mobs of the citizenry.
It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct?
That is assuming that an "epic drow" didn't have a simple way to get past the city guards and then blend in. With teleport (wizards/druids), invis, coming in by the docks...there are MANY ways to get into the city without having to walk up to the guards and knock on the gates.
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We made the Vehl/Hempstead distinction to give people playing "monstrous" races a city of their own with its own atmosphere (unlike which was the case when we "only" had Hlint). It's not the idea to throw that overboard by making or thinking up exceptions.
But still didn't give us an advanced crafting halls...=P *runs and hides*
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That is assuming that an "epic drow" didn't have a simple way to get past the city guards and then blend in. With teleport (wizards/druids), invis, coming in by the docks...there are MANY ways to get into the city without having to walk up to the guards and knock on the gates.
But this is also assuming that the said epic dark elf would not be detected by any of the other epic characters (or even NPCs) present in the city. Wouldn't mind a sudden flash of implosion heading towards his direction? :)
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Surely can't just say "And rightly so, because you're questioning an officer on duty" in a blanket statement to all officials anywhere.
Actually, I can :) as what I was responding to "asking who his direct superior was over the matter". That doesn't sound as if it was put in a nice and polite way to dear Trent, and if you try that with a police officer they're of course not immediately going to toss you in jail, but they're not going to drive you down to the police station so that you can go and talk with the district head.
The city by order/priority/whatever you lump things together by is Neutral Good
A city being NG does not mean it can't have laws like the one they have. It's the average alignment of the general populace mostly.
If we'd go just by the alignment of cities/nations, then there'd never be wars between two NG nations.
I'm hoping it'll be in the new handbook, why things are as they are...
It will not be, I'm afraid.
I'm just trying to illustrate why it seems so weird to me that we try to change the whole established attitude for a people and the reasons and the alignments and the xyz for a couple of words that were just lumped together on a kinda OOC sign outside a starting city.
I refer to Dorganath's post for the reasons why, both ICly and OOCly.
I get the impression there's this "business cycle" going on. (You know, how 5-7 years of growth get followed by 5-7 years of decline).
First, we do not have any rules against "monstrous" races, and you can find them on every corner of Hlint. There are many talks and discussions about this, occasionally dark elves get kicked out of Hlint if there's a GM on, but it's never satisfactory.
Then we do V3, and decide we'll loosen the restrictions on evil PCs, and put in two starting cities so that those playing an evil char, and/or those playing a monstrous race char can have "their" city as well. Good idea right? Right! :)
But then, like Dorganath says, we get reports and need to police. So we put up signs, so that people who do not frequent the forums a lot also become aware. Good idea right? Right! :)
You'll see that most of the above is all because of OOC behaviours that we tried to solve with OOC/IC solutions.
There is never going to be a 100% fix.
Anyway, you request a reason why they're not allowed in the city, here it is:
The Port Hempstead Dockworkers guild consists mostly of your standard human. Half giants or half orcs with their strength and size are a threat to the livelihood of the regular human dockworker, so they're barred from the city after successful lobbying and bribing of the PHDG led to this rule implementation by the Port Hempstead authorities.
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Anyway, you request a reason why they're not allowed in the city, here it is:
The Port Hempstead Dockworkers guild consists mostly of your standard human. Half giants or half orcs with their strength and size are a threat to the livelihood of the regular human dockworker, so they're barred from the city after successful lobbying and bribing of the PHDG led to this rule implementation by the Port Hempstead authorities.
This conforms to my impressions of Port Hempstead from my first visit in a long time. Between the sign outside and the statuary dedicated to the heroes who defended the city from drow, dwarf and goblin assaults, it was simple to conclude that the city is strongly bigoted... perhaps understandably so, but bigoted nonetheless.
Just posting because these cues were entirely legible to my noobish eye and did not seem contrived. Hempstead comes off as a militaristic, xenophobic city.
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Humans, despite being the most adaptable vertebrates in the world, ARE quite quick to pick up prejudices. They don't have much time (comparatively) to develop a world-view before they're wasting away to death, so it simply makes sense for Average Joe NPC to lump the rest of the world into a few sentences worth of ideas.
Farmer NPC probably thinks most elves are slender treehuggers, most dwarves are sturdy drinkers, and all dark elves are evil monsters from the depths of the world intent on his destruction.
You get the idea.
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But still didn't give us an advanced crafting halls...=P *runs and hides*
There's an advanced craft hall in Mariner's Hold, which has no racial restrictions.
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Humans, despite being the most adaptable vertebrates in the world, ARE quite quick to pick up prejudices. They don't have much time (comparatively) to develop a world-view before they're wasting away to death, so it simply makes sense for Average Joe NPC to lump the rest of the world into a few sentences worth of ideas.
Other races are not without their prejudices, and I think your social assessment of humans and Average Joe NPC is a little narrow.
Elves generally think they are better than everyone else, an attitude most commonly held by Grey Elves and Dark Elves. From LORE
Gray Elves are much more arrogant and aloof than other elven races. They regard every other race with disdain, even other elven races. They only have respect for other Gray Elves. Most Gray Elves are full of themselves, and usually only listen to themselves or other Gray Elves.
Dwarves have had their share of conflict with elves and some still hold onto old animosities. As well, Dwarves are generally distrusting and yes...prejudiced against groups like Dark Elves, Half-orcs, Half-giants, Goblins and so on. Both of these races are long-lived enough to "develop a world view," and yet they are every bit as prejudiced as any other race
Farmer NPC probably thinks most elves are slender treehuggers, most dwarves are sturdy drinkers, and all dark elves are evil monsters from the depths of the world intent on his destruction.
You get the idea.
You're right, and in about 99% of the cases, they would be correct. Sure, there might be an obese, industrialist elf out there, or a dwarf with a one-drink limit...and Hlint has shown us that some Dark Elves are just Elves with suntans. But the commonly-held perceptions of the various races, humans included, are quite accurate for most of the cases.
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Well, it was a four-sentence post. It was a bit narrow. I suppose I should've elaborated to explain how humans will adopt these ideas more readily than some of the longer-lived races...
For example, Typical Dwarf John isn't too fond of elves - but that general dislike (if typically not outright hatred; something like Americans and the French) is gently hammered into him over forty years of childhood... Compared to the fifteen, eighteen of a human.
Human societies vary quite wildly. From the pseudo-Euro Trelania, to the Nordic Barbarian Isles, to the Eastern once-Rodhen (Rohden? Once-Roldem)... Societal norms differ. Folk in the Barbarian Isles are extremely tribal, placing Tribe on par with immediate family and, though it varies from Tribe to Tribe, often having less moral trouble when it comes to violence, which is seen as a natural part of the chaos that is life. Breliners, as a whole, are farmers - considering, perhaps, themselves as Breliners, but foremost considering themselves Coopers, or McAndrews, or Smiths - extended families sticking together to work the land that they call home. Violence is not a part of their lives, while the intricacies of politics are the period equivalent of soap operas... Something a Krashiner would likely have trouble seeing the fascination in. (Some of the specifics are speculation, but the examples are provided to illustrate the point.)
It is the stories and legends, however, that truly define human culture. Whereas the longer-lived races' histories are but a generation or three back, a human child must take the majority of his knowledge of the world on faith. Little Joey McFarmer doesn't have Great-Grandpa Elfy to tell the tale of his father's part in the Dragon Wars... No, he's some ten or twelve generations down, where all has passed into myth and tale. To him, all Dark Elves ARE evil, particularly if he can still go to the older parts of the city (if he lives in or near Hemp) and see the ruins.
Joey McFarmer's never seen Fort Vehl - it's leagues away, and he'll never have reason to go there. It's his Mos Eisley - a den of thieves and smugglers that he's only heard mentioned a few times. Dark Elves, goblins... Stuff of stories, for all that the old men talk of war.
Humans take to ideas very rapidly, and form a mob identity just as quick. Get fifty humans in a crowd, and tell them about the horrors that a group of dark elves has been visiting upon the countryside, get 'em riled up... And then toss a darkear in there. He'll get torn limb from limb, no matter how Good and prissy he is, no matter how little he fights back.
Likewise, if you've got a city of people who've grown up hearing stories of the horrors that the monsters have put their relatives and countrymen through... It might not be an anger reaction. One man spots a flash of obsidian skin on an elf, and you've likely got an hysteria on your hands.
Monstrous races aren't banned from Hempstead because of any truly logical reason... They're banned to keep the people from rioting.
My above argument was only that perhaps people would be comfortable enough with half-giants (like half-elves and the occasional half-orc who doesn't look too fearsome) to not freak out too badly. But the Authorities in Hemp took the safe route; their choice.
Better?
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Compared to the relative span of time between birth and adulthood, the time for an idea to become ingrained is roughly equivalent across the races. One could even argue that the elven or dwarven life spans allow for even more deeply rooted prejudices than humans. On the flip side, humans are, being adaptable as they are, more likely to be swayed by arguments toward dropping or softening their prejudices.
But anyway, this is sliding off-topic. See above for the reasoning, both IC and OOC.
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But this is also assuming that the said epic dark elf would not be detected by any of the other epic characters (or even NPCs) present in the city. Wouldn't mind a sudden flash of implosion heading towards his direction? :)
While we are hypothetically assuming! *grins* The said "epic drow' might have proven to the other epic characters that she can be trusted and they turn a blind eye. Perhaps they have crossed paths and have mutual respect for each other. I mean with them not being LG epic pcs and all!
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There's an advanced craft hall in Mariner's Hold, which has no racial restrictions.
Three boat trips, no mage hall, no inn to bake goods... Not being able to get round trips to and from Mariner's hold is another issue.
I am not trying to complain, but hardly fair and reasonable. The changes with V3 were great as were the additions to Vhel, please do not get me wrong. I don't mean to complain, but with all fairness, an advanced hall in vhel is needed.
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There is an inn to bake goods in, in Mariner's Hold, and there is a mage hall in a nearby tower.
[INDENT]"Come and visit sunny Alindor! The adventurers' first choice for excitement and crafting! We even have our own resident bad-guy!"[/INDENT]
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Speaking as one of those twinkly goody-two-shoes types, I can tell you that there's no place in Hempstead where I can bake either. I have to scurry past all those drunken sailors in Vehl and dive into the One-Eyed Harpy's kitchen before any of them can accost me. Thankfully, the cook down there is fond of my apple pies and smacks the customers with her big wooden spoon if they try to follow me.
:D
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What Script Wrecked said.
And yes, there is a round-trip between Vehl and Mariner's, so it's only 2 boat tickets. And once more...one of the prices you pay for playing one of those races...something we've been saying for quite a while now.
:)
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Speaking as one of those twinkly goody-two-shoes types, I can tell you that there's no place in Hempstead where I can bake either.
:D
Ummm... Have you never been to the Scamps Mug in the Docks District of Hempstead? There is a kitchen to cook there...
*gives Kirbiana a disbelieving look*
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I have seen several half orcs, Dobble the 1/2 gaint and even a dark elf in Port Hemp.
I am glad to hear that simply wearing a helm doesn't by pass that but still I see those laws broken often.
Speaking of helms and hiding races. I am often around dark elf PC's that are "disguise". Lately there have been three I have seen often. If I spend a decent amount of time around them or go adventuring with them. Am I in my rights to ask for a lore check to know what they are? I assume in the course of adventuring and getting cut and stabbed I would see their skin, especially if I healing or bandaging them.
And what would be the DC of that Lore check?
I hate what will happen once I find out. But we either ignore the world and the Lore or role play it out.
Byron player of Verideth
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Ummm... Have you never been to the Scamps Mug in the Docks District of Hempstead? There is a kitchen to cook there...
*gives Kirbiana a disbelieving look*
I'm not sure if this is what Kirbiana was getting at, but there are plenty of characters you wouldn't set foot in the Mug for IC reasons (For instance, I think paladins are technically allowed to, but would they really want to?), and that inconvenience in crafting locations is not limited to monstrous races.
Speaking of helms and hiding races. I am often around dark elf PC's that are "disguise".
I think I've said this before, but hoods don't hide faces (at least, if you want to be able to walk without bumping into things, it won't). If you see a character with a helmet on when they don't have to, that's just weird, and you have every right to ask them to remove it out of courtesy (just make sure you treat everyone alike, if you go that route). I mean really, in RL, if somebody rides up to McDonalds in their Harley, and doesn't take off their helmet when they do in to order,m sure they may get served, but their going to get some strange looks.... a metal helmet is no different, and probably a lot more uncomfortable.
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Shiff, darling, it's attached to the temple of an enemy god. Mirrim may have an intelligence of 9, but she's still pretty sure she shouldn't go in there.
;)
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I think I've said this before, but hoods don't hide faces (at least, if you want to be able to walk without bumping into things, it won't).
I think that you'll find that most of the players whose characters do run around in hoods all of the time do think that the hoods give them total anonymity, and this is the mechanism used to allow all those dark elves, half-orcs and goblins mingle so freely amongst us.
If you see a character with a helmet on when they don't have to, that's just weird...
...I mean really, in RL, if somebody rides up to McDonalds in their Harley, and doesn't take off their helmet when they do in to order,m sure they may get served, but their going to get some strange looks....
In a fantasy/medieval setting, the wearing of helms is not so out of place.
...and you have every right to ask them to remove it out of courtesy (just make sure you treat everyone alike, if you go that route).
Well, I don't think you have any right as such, but feel free to do so. Just be aware that such action may get you killed.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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In a fantasy/medieval setting, the wearing of helms is not so out of place.
In casual settings? I mean, sure there are plenty of medieval tales of the black knight who won't remove his helm before the joust and so forth, but that kind of trope is designed to make a character strange and out of the ordinary. If you saw someone sitting on a bench with a helm that covers their face, you would certainly take notice, even if you don't automatically assume they're trying to hide their race.
I'm just saying that while wearing a face covering helmet will hide your face, its not going to help blend in with the populace.
Well, I don't think you have any right as such, but feel free to do so. Just be aware that such action may get you killed.
Sure, but again, relying on those fantasy/medieval stories, refusing to remove a helmet following a polite request (without a darned good reason), could be considered an insult that might get you killed too. *shrugs*
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Fezzik: Why do you wear a mask? Were you burned by acid, or something like that?
The Man in Black: Oh no, it's just that they're terribly comfortable. I think everyone will be wearing them in the future.
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Shiff, darling, it's attached to the temple of an enemy god.
Not exactly. It's more that the Shadonites decided the tavern would be a good place to worship than that there is an actual temple there that the inn happens to adjoin. I know the bindstone and pool make it seem like a more permanent place purposely built there as a proper temple, but I think those are there just so Shadonites have an actual bindstone and pool of their own god to use.
There's some old info on the setup of Hemp down a bit in this thread (http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/113489-inns-taverns-alignments.html).
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Not exactly. It's more that the Shadonites decided the tavern would be a good place to worship than that there is an actual temple there that the inn happens to adjoin. I know the bindstone and pool make it seem like a more permanent place purposely built there as a proper temple, but I think those are there just so Shadonites have an actual bindstone and pool of their own god to use.
There's some old info on the setup of Hemp down a bit in this thread (http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/113489-inns-taverns-alignments.html).
But that still makes it a place of worship of Shadon, and Toran wouldn't like that :)
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Sure, but again, relying on those fantasy/medieval stories, refusing to remove a helmet following a polite request (without a darned good reason), could be considered an insult that might get you killed too. *shrugs*
So could you asking someone to take their helmet off...
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So could you asking someone to take their helmet off...
That's what the "Sure" was acknowledging :)
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But that still makes it a place of worship of Shadon, and Toran wouldn't like that :)
As the thread I linked to discusses, Shadonites gather to worship wherever they want, making any place potentially a place of worship of Shadon. If they did it in the main square, would Toranites have to stay out of town for a while? The guards can say whatever they want, but can they really tell a Shadonite he's not worshiping? Saying the kitchen is off limits to Toranites because they have to walk past some Shadonites to get there is the same as saying all of Port Hempstead is off limits because some Shadonites (or anyone else) are worshiping by the fountains in the main square.
Since there is a big statue of Dorand in the advanced crafting hall and the Hymn of Dorand being sung, does that make it a place of worship of Dorand? Do the flags of Deliar on the roof of the big building where the bank and shops are make the whole thing a place of worship of Deliar, leaving Toranites no place to shop or bank in Port Hempstead? The Deliarites' bindstone and pool are in a similar proximity to the bank and shops as the Shadonites' to the kitchen, after all.
I had thought none of these places were considered temples as far as the Toranite oaths were concerned, as much because it's a starter city as anything else, but if that isn't correct I'd appreciate the right info.
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It's probably more the rowdy, drunkenly chaotic bar that Toran objects to more than the opposing temple, anyway. But then, "Thou Shalt Not Bake Amidst Crossdressing Tavern Brawls" is not part of the code, though perhaps he should reconsider the oaths.
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My PC Mirrim is actually an Aeridinite, but I do know a Toranite paladin who won't go into the merchants or bank at Hempstead because it's labeled as a temple to Deliar on the outside. The player knows that there's no rule against it from the team, but says it just doesn't feel right to do it. And yes, that paladin is equally punctilious about the Scamp and about Prunilla's temple/hospital/alms kitchen on Dregar.
I truly wasn't complaining about not being allowed in to the Scamp. In fact, I prefer cooking in Vehl for the incredible convenience of being only a step away from the magic hall, crafting merchant, craft hall, temple, bank, chickens, etc. As Ycleption inferred, I just wanted to note that some of us good-and-lawful types have restrictions when it comes to crafting, too.
:)
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Certainly. As I said in the other thread, I might have my character avoid the Scamp if she were a Toranite Paladin, too.
There is a difference, though, between choosing as a player not to have one's character enter certain places and having a team member say specifically that a god would look unfavorably on a character's entrance to those places. That's why I asked for clarification.
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Certainly. As I said in the other thread, I might have my character avoid the Scamp if she were a Toranite Paladin, too.
There is a difference, though, between choosing as a player not to have one's character enter certain places and having a team member say specifically that a god would look unfavorably on a character's entrance to those places. That's why I asked for clarification.
Well, for myself, I'd wager (to use the oft-touted example) that Toran would look unfavorably on a character's entrance to the Scamp (and, to a lesser degree, the temples/areas consecrated of/to Deliar and Prunilla), but it'd be more of a very slight frown, or perhaps an arched eyebrow, than a scowl and a smite.
;)