The World of Layonara

The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on May 28, 2008, 04:02:38 PM

Title: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Pen N Popper on May 28, 2008, 04:02:38 PM
There was some discussion on IRC today about the sign outside of Hempstead and what it means to the "evil" races listed on it.  The summary:  

It is a violation of server rules for a PC of a race listed to enter Hempstead, whether they're disguised or not, without GM supervision.  There are apparently some "famous" PCs that this does not apply to, but for the rest of us it's a no-go.

Is this an accurate statement?
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: lonnarin on May 28, 2008, 05:39:19 PM
I have no say in this policy, though I do have a very strong opinion of it as it...

Honestly, I just wish there were NO exceptions.  I play 3 monstrous races and I don't lose any sleep at night not being able to enter because the law is the law.  I chose to play that race, and I deal with the card I was given.  If anybody's too "famous" to obey the law because of some secret byline or World Leader status, then they are setting a horribly wrong example, and should be considered a very famous lawbreaker subject to prosecution.  Let's make an anology...

Mother says "no cookies in bed" to her two children tucked in at night, then hands a cookie to one of them.  The other asks, "can I have a cookie?" and she says no.  He asks "why does he have a cookie?" and she says, "I'm not saying".  He asks "what can I do to get a cookie?" and she says "Nothing, no cookies in bed for you!"  The other child grins wide at the first one, crumbs on his lips and chin, melted chocolate streaked on his cheeks and laughs.  The first child cries... bitter, then goes and sneaks a cookie after he thinks mom is asleep.  He hops into bed, takes a bite and the lights flip on!  Mother stands there with the paddle, snatches the cookie and tans the child's hide.  "I thought I told you NO COOKIES IN BED!"  *thwack thwack thwack*.  The child cries himself to sleep, meanwhile, Mother hands his brother another cookie, and says...  "No Cookies in Bed!"

Any parents, teachers, or critical thinkers, tell me... will the paddled child come to understand that what he did was wrong, or will this just build resentment until the child runs onto the forum and posts "Mother loves him best!  This isn't fair!"?  Is it really worth the inevitable forum-drama that will result?
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Dorganath on May 28, 2008, 06:08:48 PM
It is a violation of Port Hempstead law, not server rules, for any member of a race listed on that sign to enter Port Hempstead who has not been given an exemption by the city's authority.  

I thought this question was well-addressed in a previous thread (http://forums.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster/180942-permission-halfgiant-enter-hempstead.html) on this very subject.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: twidget658 on May 28, 2008, 11:08:59 PM
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In my mind WL's put the community first in most cases. WL's understand that it is the community that makes the world tick. WL's do not travel in the same "group/cliques" day after day after day and never alter this travel and/or adventure. WL's branch out and work with others in the community, not just their friends, to welcome them and to help them out when and where they can.

 
 If the community doesn't know the WL, then I feel that the WL is not holding themselves to this requirement.
 
 
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WL's set the standard for role-playing and do not get carried away in hack and slash and/or doing the same routine over and over. WL's support the teams, the world, and the community, they don't tear it apart; that does not mean they can't disagree with decisions or that they shouldn't give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback because they should.
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 The metric for being a good WL is RP, community involvement, getting the new players that join to have a reason to keep coming back and getting them involved in the world.
 
 
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World Leaders are players that support and protect the community as well as enhance and define RP in the world. They are some of the ones that the teams rely on in order to keep this a great place to game for families and friends as well as the community as a whole. These players will have shown that they are first-rate role-players as well as the fact that they support the community and world. Your actions in game and out of game reflect on Layonara and as such you will be held to a high standard. If these standards are violated then the World Leader status of the character and the player will be revoked.
 
 
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World Leaders must continue to be active in the world at all times. Once a character becomes a World Leader that means the player must continue to play in Layonara at least somewhat frequently or that status will be removed at the discretion of the GM Team. The World Leader character must be played at least five hours a month and not just played during GM ran quests. They should be a part of the community and not just on GM events.
 
 Get out a be seen. Be an influence on the other players. Help them develop and grow their PC.
 
 
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The World Leader player must be in the game or within the community environment (IRC, Forums, game) at least ten hours a month.
 
 
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WL's are held to a higher standard by the GM Team and most assuredly me. They do not break community or server rules nor do they "stretch" the rules to the point of nearly breaking them. We expect them to be great RP'ers and to be constantly RP'ing and setting the standard and TEACHING others how to RP better; not meta-gaming or any of that silly stuff. They take in to account (and RP) deity relations (as they are listed), they take in to account factions, lore, history, and all of those things that would cause situations to be altered. We expect them to take others under their reach to teach them the world and introduce them to new things, without breaking server rules of course. We expect them to support the team and the world and the community, not tear it apart and/or spread rumors and gossip behind the scene.
 
 Along with the topic of this thread, an IC reason to 'break' a rule is in a sense, stretching the rule. I would think that there would have to be a huge CDQ or some other circumstance, perhaps approval from Ed, Dorg or L.
 
 
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WL's work to ensure others in the community stay around and have fun while helping them improve in RP'ing and making new friends within the community. They are friendly and they communicate well with others and they help out where and when they can and it does not interfere with something they are doing at that time or coming very shortly.
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 Make their journals! Use the WL tools that are given. The only way these tools can be used is to be in the thick of things.
 
 
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WL ALWAYS put community before fun and/or action and/or RP. But quite often this would happen as that is what a WL does.
 
 
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WL never travel with the same group or friends. Far from it, they have friends just like all of us and should be able to travel with them just like everybody else. But when they do they allow others to travel with them when/where it makes sense and they do not allow those that are not a "friend" of the group get kicked around or disrespected by said group. They try to help the person along to make sure that individual has fun.
 
 I feel that this has sort of been taken for granted for various reasons. It is up to each WL to adhere to the requirements that L has set in place. And since we can provide feedback to GM's, then WL's need feedback as well so they can improve.
 
 Edit: This may be moved to another thread or more appropriate place. I put it here since the WL's were mentioned.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ycleption on May 29, 2008, 12:09:16 AM
Quote from: Dorganath
It is a violation of Port Hempstead law, not server rules, for any member of a race listed on that sign to enter Port Hempstead who has not been given an exemption by the city's authority.  


Just a clarification though, when characters are flaunting the fact that they are a banned race in Hempstead, constitutes metagaming/exploiting the mechanics to the extent that it is against server rules, correct?

Since the other thread didn't address the OOC aspects of the issue, I would suggest that this is a similar kind of issue to defacing a temple in absence of a DM, that should not be accepted by the community as being within the spirit of the server.



---------------
Edit: I've been pretty outspoken on this issue, and I hope I don't come across too strongly... it's something I've spoken to a number of players about, and want to make sure people know my reasons, aside from just that it's metagaming and it's the rule.

First, I miss the atmosphere of Vehl right after v3. When all the monstrous races congregated there, it had such a different feel, and with the re-opening of subraces, I think it could be a great place to RP if players on monstrous races didn't just go to Hempstead because they can.

Second, it puts people in an RP bind, having to deal with the OOC reality that the guards aren't going to come and arrest someone, when the IC assumption should be that they will... I really honestly just don't know how to RP with monstrous characters sitting in the middle of the square, when I've already played over the scenario before with that character.

Third and finally, I think running amok in Hempstead is disrespectful to all the players of banned races who observe the rules, and suffer the additional effort of crafting in other cities, who RP being an outcast, and/or invest heavily in Hide/MS(and never are in the open) and RP stowing away on ships or whatnot to get in Hempstead (especially since Ed confirmed that fully covered people would be asked to remove coveringby the gate guards). Playing a monstrous race is not supposed to be easy (those heavy penalties to cha and int should have RP meaning), and when some choose to take shortcuts, it's unfair to the players that RP that the law will be enforced.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Hellblazer on May 29, 2008, 01:05:07 AM
Quote from: ycleption
Just a clarification though, when characters are flaunting the fact that they are a banned race in Hempstead, constitutes metagaming/exploiting the mechanics to the extent that it is against server rules, correct?

Well I'm sure that could be easily remedied with a shoot first ask question later, script on the guards of hempstead. *evil grin*

If the exception is note worthy, an item could be given to him that the guards would automatically check for in their inventory; if not found, open fire and calling for back up depending on the level of the offender.

Call it a check point.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Pen N Popper on May 29, 2008, 07:34:19 AM
Quote from the other thread...

Quote

  Quote:
 [table=head;sort=1a,2,3]   It should also be assumed that if you're wearing full robes, gloves, and hood or helm, that the Gate Guards or Port Authority would have already asked you to show them your face as you enter town in order to police this law, correct? |
 [/table]
Yes, you can assume that. But as you know, we do not have GM possessed guards 24/7, so if everybody just waltzes through the gate and pretend nothing happens then there's little we can do apart from having a GM presence there all the time or actively enforcing it should we become aware.
And I would think people would agree that GM time is better spent on running quests, then policing Hempstead 24/7.
 
Cost/benefit assessment: high cost, low benefit.
 
Half-giants are explicitly excluded from Port Hempstead, so you'd be turned away at the gates, as would a dark elf.
The reason I asked for clarification in the first place is exactly this.  To me this means that -every- race listed on the sign (halforcs, orcs, goblins, kobold, halfgiants, drow, etc.) and those not listed (human, elf, etc.) would all be required to RP that they were asked by the guards to show their faces.  If any monstrous race enters Hempstead it is in fact metagaming.  

I personally don't like this inability to disguise oneself.  Of course there is no disguise for a massive halfgiant so either way my PC(s) would be excluded.  (Which I agree should be the case.)
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Dorganath on May 29, 2008, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: ycleption
Just a clarification though, when characters are flaunting the fact that they are a banned race in Hempstead, constitutes metagaming/exploiting the mechanics to the extent that it is against server rules, correct?

Since the other thread didn't address the OOC aspects of the issue, I would suggest that this is a similar kind of issue to defacing a temple in absence of a DM, that should not be accepted by the community as being within the spirit of the server.

Largely correct.  It's definitely metagaming to simply walk in the front gate as a member of a monstrous race and expect no sort of resistance.  It is, however, an entirely different thing to get past the guards by, for example, sneaking or going invisible.  And yes, it is similar, though not quite as serious, as defacing temples in front of the temple staff when there's no GM on.

On disguises....the "disguise" of a hood might work well to shadow one's features making it more difficult to recognize their face, but during the day, it would not even come close to concealing their skin color.  A decent spot roll can defeat a hood-only "disguise".  Half-orcs and half-giants are big and shaped oddly, and no amount of hoods or helmets are going to change that.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Gulnyr on May 29, 2008, 11:48:42 AM
Quote from: Dorganath
It is, however, an entirely different thing to get past the guards by, for example, sneaking or going invisible.

I have two comments about this.

First, NWN sneaking is broken.  It is silly to think someone could "hide" and walk along an open road and through a narrow gate without being seen.  That doesn't mean it isn't possible to sneak into towns, just that what we usually think of as sneaking in-game would not work; you can't hide in the open.

Second, I think invisibility would work magnificently in the real world where it would be a new and unusual thing, but in a world where magic is real, invisibility (and illusions and other such magical disguises) would probably be detected at any actual check point.  Sure, some little village probably doesn't have mages on guard, but a rich city like Port Hempstead can not only afford them but wouldn't be able to guard squat without them.  Any enemy could sneak in invisibly, and then those nice, thick walls would be useless.  Any real enemy will bring mages in an attack, and if the city has none of its own, it is probably doomed.

Besides that, the citizens in towns know the laws, more or less, and if there is a law banning certain races from being in town, wouldn't any and every citizen who saw them have the potential to cry for the guards (or worse)?  And wouldn't there be guards patrolling the streets here and there?  Trent isn't the only guard inside Port Hempstead after all.  So, even if a 'monstrous' character could sneak in invisibly, what are they going to do except sit invisibly watching everyone else?  Or, in other words, if they aren't spies, they probably aren't going to get much done.  I imagine that even those 'monstrous' characters allowed in Port Hempstead get a lot of questions asked and need to show papers pretty often and maybe even get denied service some places anyway.  It's just that none of that stuff is modeled in the NWN version of Layonara, so no one ever thinks about it.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Dorganath on May 29, 2008, 11:59:02 AM
Agreed, but at least then there's some RPed observance of the fact that guards are out front, rather than just ignoring them for OOC reasons.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Hellblazer on May 29, 2008, 12:49:05 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
I have two comments about this.

 you can't hide in the open.

ooh except for Sd's hehe, but then again if someone has true sight or the spot/listen for it, then even them are spotted.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Falonthas on May 29, 2008, 01:30:32 PM
its why noone ever bothers a kitty
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Falonthas on May 29, 2008, 01:35:14 PM
and in regard to missing how vehl was right after v3 opened

maybe more should begin in vehl
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Acacea on May 29, 2008, 02:22:27 PM
All monster races are required to begin in Vehl. It was only after the sign was put up that it was apparent that included half races, which were not considered monster races by the rest of the world. If dark elves and orcs are starting in Hempstead, they are starting in the wrong place - they don't have the option.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Stug3 on May 29, 2008, 02:31:30 PM
What if your character cannot read?
 If they are not told about being refused access they how would they know? Volga is not the brightest bulb on the tree and often visits Hemp, not only does he visit but every time he passes the guards he waves or greets them in some form. There is NO way he could sneak into Hemp; he's way too big and dumb to get away with that. I don't consider it metagaming, on the contrary if he were to know what the sign says then that WOULD be metagaming... If anyone tells him to "stay outta here Giant" then he would simply not come back...no harm no foul. But until then how would he know he is not welcome?
 
 * I'm not trying to start anything or stir the pot, just giving the reason Volga does frequent Hemp...He simply doesn't know any better.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ShiffDrgnhrt on May 29, 2008, 02:35:25 PM
You are missing two points though.  Regardless of being able to read, as soon as he gets near the gates, the guards ARE going to draw swords and either chase him away or kill him.  He's not alllowed in, AT ALL, and the guards enforce it.  ALL the time

secondly, the Sign is sort of an OOC "Hey, Don't do this" just as much as an IC one.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Stug3 on May 29, 2008, 02:37:16 PM
Good to know....consider him 'told'
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Acacea on May 29, 2008, 03:29:24 PM
They aren't going to draw swords because they use blunt weapons, nor kill outside the gates without provocation for the same reason.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ShiffDrgnhrt on May 29, 2008, 03:32:26 PM
Thats hardly the point.  They still arent gonna let a monster into Hempstead, whether they have hammers or swords or Potato Cannons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_cannon)...
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: lonnarin on May 29, 2008, 04:12:04 PM
As to the political environment, many goodly and just people should be boycotting Hempstead.  (Aeridenite and Azattan ones in particular!)  Famous exceptions should be disgusted by the place and make it a point not to protect them or do buisiness there.  Many of us in Vehl would view Hempstead in even worse light than Prantz, by that token.  At least the dictatorship of Prantz lets you register.  

Above all, we shouldn't be arguing with the *team* over the validity of the rule, but be constantly staging Azattan protests outside the gates, writing angry letters on the forums in character and posting them everywhere, chastising the *government* of Hempstead, requesting CDQs to change things.  If you really want to rush the gates, that's fine, but do so when a GM is there to possess the guards and go down fighting and the legend will grow!  So initiate a boycott, stage a martyrdom, lobby the government and guilds to pull out of the city and maybe the officials will respond.   New areas are being closed off, revamped, updated and decimated by player and plot actions every month, so why not lead a civil rights movement?

*could just imagine a speech given by Corash about how all life is equally precious, and former dockworkers declaring "I am still half human!"*

Just a few RP ideas I'm throwing out there on ways to cope with this issue. ;)

PS: Methinks the potato cannon was the product of a Goranite and Prunillite union gone horribly wrong...
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Weeblie on May 29, 2008, 04:18:30 PM
Hehe... did it appear to you that:

1. Aeridin is the primary elven deity and Voltrex itself has been quite "locked" until just "recently". Not even other elves were generally allowed in.

2. Az'atta is a deity of "those who have turned away from the dark side". A bunch of thieves, murderers and dark elves who claim that they now have changed. Not the sort of people with their opinions being valued so greatly by others. ;)

You need to get back to the drawing board again. :p
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Acacea on May 29, 2008, 04:25:07 PM
Lonn, that is exactly the reaction that sign should cause, and why it was a big lack of thought that caused it to be put there in the first place, since it is a completely inappropriate location for that kind of frenzy in this period of its history. Getting that reaction to a city supposed to be represented as good and free seems to have been the desired result, instead of simply representing it as it was. Instead of what was there, we have something completely worthy of everyone's scorn, and we must like it that way since it remains. Boycott away, since we have lit a match on the stack of kindling that was Port Hempstead. :)
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ShiffDrgnhrt on May 29, 2008, 04:29:03 PM
I'm kinda surprised no one has bothered to remember the city was destroyed BY Dark Elves and Giants and Orcs a LONG time ago.  Why would they want those kinds ANYWHERE near their city?  I think it makes sense, the sign.  And since this debate has started I keep my "Dark Elf" away from Hempstead, unless I have to go through the docks from Mariner's Hold or Leringard
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Dorganath on May 29, 2008, 05:18:50 PM
I said this in IRC...

If you think the law is unjust, start an IC, in-game movement to petition the city to change or relax it.

It's certainly a better option than endlessly debating this here.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ShiffDrgnhrt on May 29, 2008, 06:02:01 PM
So, Bottom Line:

1. Alantha is allowed in Hempstead cause she Alantha, and since I donno what she did to become a WL, won't say more.  And if there are other "monsterous" PCs that are allowed in Hempstead that I don't know about, same for them.  But Lath don't belong there, so you won't find him in the city :p  EDIT:  Well whatever she did (since it wasn't her WLDQ) I still donno what that is, but whatever that reason IS, I still donno.  So bottom line, Alantha is Alantha and earned it for whatever reason by whatever means.  Deal with it

2. Respect the Sign!  If you play a Monster, and just HAVE to get into Hempstead despite all that Hemp offers IS offered in many other cities (Mariner's Hold, Vehl, Prantz, Hlint, Llast, Wayfare, Etc), find a DM, try sneaking in, or seriously RP trying to scale the walls or something, or sneaking in through the docks, or something...  But don't just waltz in thinking "Muahaha!  No DMs!  I can get away with it!"  Cause that's metagaming(ish) and poor RPmanship (IMHO)

3. If a DM catches you IC, RP it!  Fight with Trent, resist arrest, Argue, whatever, but don't complain to the DM that its not fair.  It's posted for all to see, if you're in te city when your not supposed to, your just asking for it.

4. If you wanna change it, do something IC about it.  Cause I'm pretty sure the Team and the players don't need to constantly debate and dispute this on the forums till kingdom Come...  Heck, there are a bunch of players playing Goblins, Half Orcs, Half Giants, even some drow.  start something!  Just...  not a War, cause then shiff has to get involved and hurt people...  :p
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Weeblie on May 29, 2008, 06:14:47 PM
Alantha's WL status has nothing to do what so ever with Hempstead. In fact, what she exactly did on her WL isn't something super well known among all. And... wasn't she allowed into Hempstead far before when her WL was ran?

So, what's the reason? Well, perhaps what she did before? The key contributing factor, and probably her most famous deed, is perhaps being with the group paying good old Blood a visit? :)

Classical Drizzt style going on in this case. Heh, and she even has a house in Hempstead so no wonder she's allowed in.

To my poor knowledge, I know that there are at least one other person also on the "okay"-list. Though... I cannot remember the name of the said character.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Dorganath on May 29, 2008, 06:30:27 PM
Right.  Alantha's WL status has absolutely nothing to do with her admission to Port Hempstead.  And yes, she was excepted before her WL ran.

It has more to do with the individuals proving themselves in some way and being well-known as good people rather than any other sort of status they might have attained.

As an example, if Daralith were to become a WL, that wouldn't automatically grant him free access to Port Hempstead.

2, 3 and 4 are about right though.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: jrizz on May 29, 2008, 06:33:07 PM
so how do you get on the "ok list" and what is the criteria for getting on the "ok  list"?

Do you have to save the world?
Do you have to save the city?
Or do you just have to prove you are a good guy/gal?
Who decides who is on the "ok list"?

If you have to save the world, what constitutes the world? If you were one of the "heros" of the thunder peaks, does that count?
What if a GM runs a quest about a goblin army getting ready to raid Hempstead and you have stop that, will you then be on the "ok list'?

This is very confusing. The city rule should be the rule no exceptions. We who play monstrous races have Vehl why do any of us need access to hempstead? Exceptions cause confusion.

An easy away around revoking someones access is to say "hey that was a long time ago this is now" and the new boss says "sorry its not me its the people they just dont want your type here"
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Weeblie on May 29, 2008, 06:40:34 PM
How did Drizzt become accepted? :)

Simple answer: No lone action makes you OK. It's a pattern of well recognised events.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: jrizz on May 29, 2008, 06:50:23 PM
Quote from: Weeblie
How did Drizzt become accepted? :)

Simple answer: No lone action makes you OK. It's a pattern of well recognised events.


Most of the questions still stand. Without it being defined it is left subjective.

Who has to recognize your accomplishments? The city government? The people of the city? Some temple elders? The people who live in the farms outside of the city? Your friends?
Do people of accepted races have to petition for you? Do they have to vouch for you? To who is this done?

And still the question, Who decides?

Easier to revoke all access then to build the structure needed to support exceptions.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Weeblie on May 29, 2008, 07:07:51 PM
It is naturally the government itself who alone is making this decision, just like it is the government of Prantz that would decide if you were an exception to their no-magic rule, and the government of Voltrex if you were to be allowed a permanent stay on the island (um... yeah... right... big chance...). Due to the nature of exceptions being few, the infrastructure to support the exceptions isn't a bother for the government (for the moment).

If one thinks about it... there are actually exceptionally many exceptions among the adventuring population. Elves following dwarven deities and happily living among humans, dwarves being best buddies with halflings, druids not even hesitating to walk into a crowded city, etc... I would dare to say that among the PC population, the exception is to actually be like the rest 99% of the world, hehe...
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: jrizz on May 29, 2008, 07:41:47 PM
ok so OOC anyone can proclaim their goodness and "say" they were granted an exception? LOL just joking of course.

The questions still stand especially; Who decides?

- Do you have to save the world?
- Do you have to save the city?
- Do you just have to prove you are a good guy/gal?
- If you have to save the world, what constitutes the world?
- If you were one of the "heros" of the thunder peaks, does that count?
- What if a GM runs a quest about a goblin army getting ready to raid Hempstead and you have stop that, will you then be on the "ok list'?
- Who has to recognize your accomplishments? The city government? The people of the city? Some temple elders? The people who live in the farms outside of the city? Your friends?
- Do people of accepted races have to petition for you? Do they have to vouch for you? To who is this done?
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Drizzlin on May 29, 2008, 08:25:18 PM
Quote from: Pen N Popper
Quote from the other thread...

The reason I asked for clarification in the first place is exactly this.  To me this means that -every- race listed on the sign (halforcs, orcs, goblins, kobold, halfgiants, drow, etc.) and those not listed (human, elf, etc.) would all be required to RP that they were asked by the guards to show their faces.  If any monstrous race enters Hempstead it is in fact metagaming.  

I personally don't like this inability to disguise oneself.  Of course there is no disguise for a massive halfgiant so either way my PC(s) would be excluded.  (Which I agree should be the case.)



Nor is there some huge magical bubble that prevents a rogue/mage or others from entering the city by other means. You don't always have to go through the gate. This was a point brought up and agreed upon, and then backed with  it being a way to enter the city and then be disguised.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Dorganath on May 29, 2008, 08:35:17 PM
It's real simple...

For an exception, one must have a sponsor (or sponsors) petition the Port Hempstead authorities (read: a GM) for the exemption.  Based on the merits and deeds of the individual, the exemption will either be granted or denied.  

To give you some idea, those to whom the exemption applies are heros of the war against Bloodstone, and their names are known and mentioned in the various stories of deeds throughout the time period that covers the last campaign. That's not the only way to get an exemption, but, say, a month or two of playing nice won't cut it either.  It's not out of the realm of possibility to have a CDQ to gain an exemption...really, there are lots of possibilities.

And again...petitioning for the law to change is a good road also. Maybe half-orcs and half-giants will be permitted with an escort.  Maybe they're required to register, or perhaps they can enter freely but must be out of town by nightfall.  Who knows!  But hey, try something besides...you know...setting fire to the city.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: jrizz on May 29, 2008, 08:38:44 PM
The issue I have with the whole disguise thing is that everyone should get a spot check on you. And since we dont have a GM on 24/7 how do we deal with it? You can say that just by the magnitude of the numbers alone your chance of getting spotted should be very high. So we come back to it. How do we handle this? There are many ways for you to make your way through to the port, sure. But if you intend to hang around in the center of the city, the crafting hall, the docks, or the inn getting spotted should be inevitable. The only way around that is staying invisible the whole time.

Now as for getting across the city you can go invisi, you can dress like some hero of note (if you are a female dark elf it would be easier), you can get by with a hood and well covered skin (unless you are a HG or HO). But these things would be only for pass through. And ANY PCs about should get a spot check on you. Now what do we base that spot check on? I am sure we can come up with something that works for all.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Drizzlin on May 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM
Quote from: Dorganath
Largely correct.  It's definitely metagaming to simply walk in the front gate as a member of a monstrous race and expect no sort of resistance.  It is, however, an entirely different thing to get past the guards by, for example, sneaking or going invisible.  And yes, it is similar, though not quite as serious, as defacing temples in front of the temple staff when there's no GM on.

On disguises....the "disguise" of a hood might work well to shadow one's features making it more difficult to recognize their face, but during the day, it would not even come close to concealing their skin color.  A decent spot roll can defeat a hood-only "disguise".  Half-orcs and half-giants are big and shaped oddly, and no amount of hoods or helmets are going to change that.


Thank you for bringing this up again Dorg.

For the rest of us, I would recommend you talk to the people who are "in the city" as monsterous races. I know some go in the city and never hang out in any large area and always try to "walk" in the shadows of the city and stick to the alleys and keep out of sight. If you try asking them in tells it might promote some good RP and answer your questions on whether they are openly  walking in the city (abusing the AI And rules) or putting some RP and time into how they got in.

I have personally been approached by server DMs on Daralith and asked both in game and out of game what I am doing in Hempsted. Through RP and not abusing the system it has always been "OK'D" by the DMs that I am there for short periods of time. I am of course usually just quickly passing through to the docks, hitting a fast trade in the trade hall, or doing some business and getting the heck out of there. I know that the city does not allow my kind and I do not want to get caught in it. I recommend to the that you talk to the people who are there and try to find out what why they are there in game.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Drizzlin on May 29, 2008, 08:46:32 PM
Quote from: ShiffDrgnhrt
I'm kinda surprised no one has bothered to remember the city was destroyed BY Dark Elves and Giants and Orcs a LONG time ago.  Why would they want those kinds ANYWHERE near their city?  I think it makes sense, the sign.  And since this debate has started I keep my "Dark Elf" away from Hempstead, unless I have to go through the docks from Mariner's Hold or Leringard


What you are failing to understand is that Dark elves, giants and orcs are not allowed anywhere in any city period. Sure you can say vehl and prantz, but even there they are not welcome or "accepted".

The only difference with hempsted is there is a sign stating the obvious. I have never had the issue of not understanding what it means to play a hated evil race. I have always know my PC is not allowed anywhere and always RPed him in hiding and sticking to the shadows rather than openly walking around as a DE, knocking on gate doors, and asking if he can play with the local children at the day care.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Drizzlin on May 29, 2008, 08:49:05 PM
Quote from: Dorganath
Right.  Alantha's WL status has absolutely nothing to do with her admission to Port Hempstead.  And yes, she was excepted before her WL ran.

It has more to do with the individuals proving themselves in some way and being well-known as good people rather than any other sort of status they might have attained.

As an example, if Daralith were to become a WL, that wouldn't automatically grant him free access to Port Hempstead.

2, 3 and 4 are about right though.


LOL if Daralith completes his WL it might get him killed...gaining a free pass in hempsted will be the least of his worries!
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Drizzlin on May 29, 2008, 08:53:04 PM
Quote from: jrizz
The issue I have with the whole disguise thing is that everyone should get a spot check on you. And since we dont have a GM on 24/7 how do we deal with it? You can say that just by the magnitude of the numbers alone your chance of getting spotted should be very high. So we come back to it. How do we handle this? There are many ways for you to make your way through to the port, sure. But if you intend to hang around in the center of the city, the crafting hall, the docks, or the inn getting spotted should be inevitable. The only way around that is staying invisible the whole time.

Now as for getting across the city you can go invisi, you can dress like some hero of note (if you are a female dark elf it would be easier), you can get by with a hood and well covered skin (unless you are a HG or HO). But these things would be only for pass through. And ANY PCs about should get a spot check on you. Now what do we base that spot check on? I am sure we can come up with something that works for all.


When i see a monster race in there, I send them a tell and ask what they are doing IC and mention the laws of hempsted OOC. I even do this when i'm on Daralith. I then ask for spot checks ect to see if they are out of place. It is not metagaming, as you stated they will and would stand out. Especially if they are hanging around socializing.

On this same note however, there is a flip side to the coin. In a place where every one is good, the last thing you would be thinking is that there is evil standing right next to you.

If I reach into a box of chocolates, the last thing I expect to pull out is a rock. I don't care how much a piece of chocolate in there looks like a rock...it is chocolate until I bite into it.

The hardest part IMO Is getting in the city, because they actually check you to see if you are an evil race. After that, the people within the city  would be in a state of comfort that the guards are doing their jobs. Witch hunts for evil races should be a super rare thing within the city gates. The people should have their guards down and not "Looking" at everyone they see in a corner or along the wall and think "oh dark elf that got in the city".

A begger on the streets, covered in clothing, would be looked at as a begger on the streets who probably smells and isn't worth the time to talk too. He would be left alone, not attacked, nor would it be demanded for him take off his hood because he could be a dark elf in hiding. Especially given the fact that everyone in the city knows that a dark elf isn't allowed in and would be stopped at the gates.

So again, it is dependent upon what the person is doing in the city. Either way a DM should be notified if someone on a monster race is in the city and the RP should begin! My point is no assuming on either side.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Acacea on May 29, 2008, 09:38:45 PM
((Don't worry, last un-asked for post on this subject.))


Quote from: Drizzlin
What you are failing to understand is that Dark elves, giants and orcs are not allowed anywhere in any city period. Sure you can say vehl and prantz, but even there they are not welcome or "accepted".

The only difference with hempsted is there is a sign stating the obvious. I have never had the issue of not understanding what it means to play a hated evil race. I have always know my PC is not allowed anywhere and always RPed him in hiding and sticking to the shadows rather than openly walking around as a DE, knocking on gate doors, and asking if he can play with the local children at the day care.


That is exactly the case and why those that then bring up "it makes sense for dark elves to be banned!" completely miss the point of why the sign is argued about. Real monsters are not welcomed anywhere. They are not viciously or justly oppressed in that specific city - it's laughable that a sign even exists to warn them, because a) most "monsters" don't read and b) anyone deterred by a sign is likely acceptable in a city. In this the starting city is semi-normal and represents the world at large, as a starting city should. It is in the half races that we twist it into an oppressive and twisted city, indeed worse than Prantz and probably one of our most sinister cities in game, since it hides so cleverly under a charade of good and a fake alignment, because the basic principles of an RP server - build numbers and IC rules around IC content - does not apply when DMs sweep casually over established content. It is a backwards mentality of "put something in, deal with all the tangles after," instead of "What kind of city is this? Who runs it? What kind of laws should it have?"

It's easy to say, "That's how it is now, if you want to change it, do it IC," except if half the team's major actions are spawned from OOC, they were never in character in the first place. How do we do that, we who are familiar with how the city was supposed to be represented? It is not the sign being "unfair" that is the problem, it is an upside-down implementation that is the problem. Your words and actions are what shape the world, no matter if you take care with them. That is the objection, not whether it is "fair" or not. Fair is irrelevant in-character. What is relevant is a city's actions, alignment, purpose, goals, etc. If it is to be fair, okay. If it's to oppress, okay. Making two city concepts duke it out because of a sign someone threw on the front lawn doesn't help in the consistency and believability of the world, though.

So it's not "one sign," it is an entire mentality that is okay and defensive of a mindset that with a few extra listings on one sign placed according to "mechanics before RP" and "build before content," entire alliances are shifted, factions re-arranged, and management turned upside down. With a single improvised paragraph given without a nod to what the city was, we re-introduce deep corruption and bribery in addition to scorn and hypocrisy. Without ever a glance at what we are growing it from...as if it were totally logical and intentional from the beginning. When it is politely brought up, it is first uncommented, then responded to with improvised answers with the same "answer without looking" perspective that caused it in the first place...resulting in basically a polite "deal with it IC."

What if we were playing in the setting of a thousand Layo years ago, in the era of the Dregarian empire, and someone put the wrong emperor up and then the wrong rulers and population and laws altogether? That's silly. Pay attention. If you are going to introduce content, evolve it from what is already there. If you want to bring down the empire, you first have to set the story in the middle of said empire, not overwrite it to where it never was. As well, its falling is a very big deal. It doesn't just happen with some new DMs quest or some sign someone thought was a good idea at the time. It sends impact ripples everywhere, factions change and are turned upside down, new people take over, a hundred things spring from such a thing to the point where once can't simply say to explain the "oops" sudden lack of an empire, "oh well, here is your IC answer - the emperor was assassinated and a new group took over." The response to that is... "What?? When?? Where were we?"

Likewise, this is the capital of a large kingdom, a major and influential port, and the "good" version of your starting cities. It should warrant at least a little care for representation.

It is not a request or demand for extra work, merely a highlighting that all this work is going to waste, because all we are doing is inefficiently introducing contradicting statements and opposing definitions and alignments of cities. For a few words and a harsh punishment on a sign out of character. Is it worth the IC domino effect that was not only unintended but not even thought of? It is not an opposition to change or to one sign, but an attempt to stress that all change has a beginning as well as a middle and an end - we can't just erase the first two, introduce a new 3rd, and say "It changed!" If we state on the forums that one of our shiny starting cities is NG, we should point all our efforts in representing that city towards making it properly represented, not explaining why it wasn't. Isn't that just the basic principle of measure twice, cut once? Look before leap? I would rather an "I don't know" answer than something made up really fast just to have an answer, that disregards approved canon.

"Deal with it IC?" Why not develop it IC?


In all this silly arguing since like February, has anyone looked at the information available in quest writeups since Lore is outdated? Has Ed looked at what he has on the city before answering? Has anyone asked its writer/DM in order to rationally see if this was indeed an oops with the city's representation? No... doesn't that seem odd when we are making such huge definitions with such small actions? We as players accept that our actions and inactions have consequences - we even have a CA team just for combing through every single character concept on the server lest they tread on the tiniest bit of lore. When are DM/writer/admin actions going to be treated with the same care, since those have a hundred times larger consequences? If the intended version of the city that was at the start of V3 was so disliked, perhaps we should just consider a new writer and a clean break instead of all this backwards confusion, that is all I'm saying...
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: twidget658 on May 29, 2008, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
First, NWN sneaking is broken. It is silly to think someone could "hide" and walk along an open road and through a narrow gate without being seen. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to sneak into towns, just that what we usually think of as sneaking in-game would not work; you can't hide in the open.
 
 Isn't this a huge city where there are hundreds of people coming and going each day. There is one gate that all these people have to go through. The area around the gate would be very crowded and busy. Hard to hide in such a crowd? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on a lot of factors. But hiding in the open is quite possible. However, I would have to say that there has to be tremndous RP on how, but not 'silly'.
 
 Reminder: The city is huge and crowded. Not just what you see with 4 PC's standing around talking.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Gulnyr on May 29, 2008, 10:52:51 PM
Exactly my point - huge and crowded with more than just what you see, plus they care enough about who gets in to pay to put a sign outside the gate telling people who can't come in.  If, as Ed responded to positively, it could be expected that anyone entering the city be asked to show their faces, then for such a big and busy city there must be more than two guards, plus some sort of magical enhancement like True Seeing.  And the guards aren't stupid, as has also been confirmed previously, so they wouldn't just let some wagon piled high with stuff pass without an inspection.  They would look for people hiding in rolls of canvas or hanging on the axles underneath or whatever, too.  If the guards stopped checking and just let people pass, they would either be derelict in their duty and eventually be punished and replaced, or the laws would have changed to something more lax so there wouldn't be as much need for inspection.

I'm not saying anything at all about hiding in crowds, which is simple enough.  I'm not saying sneaking into town is impossible, since it isn't.  I am saying it would take a lot more effort and would entail a lot more risk than the game currently models.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: jrizz on May 30, 2008, 12:05:59 AM
This is a opportunity. right now the only place a monster race can go a buy gear is in Hempstead. Time to open a shop else where.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Acacea on May 30, 2008, 12:10:15 AM
Vehl, you mean? Don't think anyone is arguing monster races being banned. It's not like orcs could just open one up in Leringard. Vehl is the exception to the pretty much global surface standard in regards to pure monster races, and they're hardly well-treated there anyway...
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: stolen on May 30, 2008, 12:15:05 AM
Quote from: Gulnyr
I have two comments about this.

First, NWN sneaking is broken.  It is silly to think someone could "hide" and walk along an open road and through a narrow gate without being seen.  That doesn't mean it isn't possible to sneak into towns, just that what we usually think of as sneaking in-game would not work; you can't hide in the open.


I dont think that sneaking is so much broken as that game mechanics dont allow you to do what would really be happening. When I am in sneaking mode with a character, even though on screen I am simply walking down the middle of the road or through an open space, I always see my character as darting from place to place, shadow to shadow, taking advantage of places to hide that non-sneakers wouldnt think of. But game mechanics dont allow this on screen.

For instance if I was to sneak into Hempstead what I really see as happening is my character waiting for the oppertunity of a delivery wagon or large group entering the city and using that to gain admittance.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Weeblie on May 30, 2008, 04:49:02 AM
It is not that sneaking into Hempstead is impossible.

But rather that it is not up to the sneaker to decide whether he is successful or not.

Hence the need to actually have a DM present for doing so.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ShiffDrgnhrt on May 30, 2008, 09:29:24 AM
Quote from: jrizz
This is a opportunity. right now the only place a monster race can go a buy gear is in Hempstead. Time to open a shop else where.

If you are refering to the Guilds, that may seem true, but many times I have seen Ferrit from the Angels take an ox full of stuff and sit in front of the pond and sell it.  Also, if the PC is smart enough to know the guild is inside, they may also be smart enough to send a letter to the Guild asking for a meeting outside the City.

IF you are talking about basic items?  Well the same stores that are in Hempstead are in Vehl.  Granted, they are harder to find because they are not in one room, but all the vendors are spread out between on "building" through various doors right inside the gates of Vehl
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: jan on May 30, 2008, 09:42:28 AM
Quote from: Acacea
Vehl, you mean? Don't think anyone is arguing monster races being banned. It's not like orcs could just open one up in Leringard. Vehl is the exception to the pretty much global surface standard in regards to pure monster races, and they're hardly well-treated there anyway...


No one is well-treated in Vehl ....

Which is funny if you take into account that a Rofirein temple is in the city ;)
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: ShiffDrgnhrt on May 30, 2008, 09:44:43 AM
Rofirein is a Neutral God of Law and Order, Not "Be nice and cheerful."  So making sure people are well treated are prolly not the main concern, rather to make sure people follow the laws
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Gulnyr on May 30, 2008, 10:02:52 AM
I'm reluctant to type anything else because it seems more is being read than I am saying.  Weeblie's post is an almost perfect summary.

Quote from: stolen
I dont think that sneaking is so much broken as that game mechanics dont allow you to do what would really be happening. When I am in sneaking mode with a character, even though on screen I am simply walking down the middle of the road or through an open space, I always see my character as darting from place to place, shadow to shadow, taking advantage of places to hide that non-sneakers wouldnt think of. But game mechanics dont allow this on screen.

First, to clarify what "broken" means, being able to stand in the middle of the very well-lit Vehl arena and be undetectable to commoners is broken.  Second, I am not in any way questioning what should be happening or how hiding should be properly RP'd.  I agree with your assessment, except to say that you probably shouldn't be on the road at all, much less walking down the middle of it, if you are RPing hiding.  Instead, you should be off to the side somewhere where there would be bushes and trees and such to hide behind.  But really, we agree everywhere that counts.

Quote
For instance if I was to sneak into Hempstead what I really see as happening is my character waiting for the oppertunity of a delivery wagon or large group entering the city and using that to gain admittance.

This is where we part ways.  You seem to be assuming that the guards just stand there or that there are only two to inspect everyone who enters.  I am saying that what we see in-game is a low resolution representation of what is really there.

Entering the city through the gate or via pier would be something like going through the airport.  People who go there a lot know the drill and have things set up to get through as quickly and smoothly as possible.  Since weapons and such are fine in Port Hempstead, that basically only means having your face visible and not looking too suspicious.  The size of the group means nothing.  If there are thirty people walking together to get in and any of them have hoods up (or are otherwise covered, like a Halfling with a large-brimmed hat looking down), then the guards will say something and act if the hooded people don't respond.  And since there are surely more than two guards at such an important gate, some handle that and some watch elsewhere, since they aren't stupid and understand the concept of distractions.  If you're bringing a wagon, you should expect it to be inspected, and if you're trying to sneak in on one, you should expect to have to do more than wait for an opportunity.  Guards watching from the walls above would see you dart in to jump onto the back after an inspection, for example.  You'd need a more elaborate plan, usually.

But y'know, maybe the guards are having a bad day all around and simple tricks might work.  I'm not saying anything is impossible.  I am saying that it might be good to read what Weeblie said again, since I seem to be incapable of expressing a point in a way that everyone else can understand:
Quote from: Weeblie
It is not that sneaking into Hempstead is impossible.

But rather that it is not up to the sneaker to decide whether he is successful or not.

Hence the need to actually have a DM present for doing so.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Drizzlin on May 30, 2008, 06:13:49 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr

Entering the city through the gate or via pier would be something like going through the airport.  People who go there a lot know the drill and have things set up to get through as quickly and smoothly as possible.  Since weapons and such are fine in Port Hempstead, that basically only means having your face visible and not looking too suspicious.  The size of the group means nothing.  If there are thirty people walking together to get in and any of them have hoods up (or are otherwise covered, like a Halfling with a large-brimmed hat looking down), then the guards will say something and act if the hooded people don't respond.  And since there are surely more than two guards at such an important gate, some handle that and some watch elsewhere, since they aren't stupid and understand the concept of distractions.  If you're bringing a wagon, you should expect it to be inspected, and if you're trying to sneak in on one, you should expect to have to do more than wait for an opportunity.  Guards watching from the walls above would see you dart in to jump onto the back after an inspection, for example.  You'd need a more elaborate plan, usually.




I completely agree with you here. Using your example I can start listing the thousands upon thousands of illegal things that still get through the airports, along with the shoe bomber guy. Sure you can say "well they are only looking for races of people, so it is easier", but mistakes are always made.

I feel you are forgetting how skilled a rogue (or any class) is with 50+ skill in hide and MS. Then add magic to the fray. Of course you can argue that the guards have true sight, which is IMO horse poopie. People saying that are the first to complain that every NPC they try to fight or get by has true sight.  

An underpaid guard at a gate, even if there are a bunch of them, are easy targets to get by if you are skilled at what you are doing. Most average people would get caught, I agree there. The ones getting through would be the skilled ones, such as a level 25 rogue. He would move right through the gates and crowd with ease. Other classes could as well.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Acacea on May 30, 2008, 06:25:51 PM
I really don't think he is trying to argue whether or not it is possible for someone to enter one way or another - he's just saying that because of there is more that meets the eye and the mistakes are not ours to decide, IC law breaking is best left to DM supervision. Yes, he happens to disagree on the simplicity of doing so, but the basic premise is that the limiting factors and openings are for DMs to tell us, not ours to assume. Rael's guards might make mistakes too, but just walking in and saying you sneaked isn't going to make it look any less like metagaming.

I agree that the guards do not all have true sight, that would be difficult, of course. I am sure that some of them have it cast on them, from different vantages than the gates. It would not be imbued on a permanent item, nor as a trait of the soldier, but it does not seem far fetched to assume that there are paid mages who may recast on a few of them. But again...that is beside the point. There may or may not be sight anywhere in the city, and they may or may not check wagons. They just want it limited to when they can watch and make sure it's done right with DMs and not just a PC saying "I snuck, so it's okay."
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Alatriel on June 04, 2008, 03:51:05 PM
Ok... so to add on to this, I have a problem when a group of people who are allowed are standing in Hempstead having a conversation and a banned raced character walks up and just stands there and nothing is done about it.  I understand that if a GM is not on, then there's not a whole lot we can do about it, but I think it is poor rp, and I've seen way too much of it lately.  Just my 2 cents worth...
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Gulnyr on June 04, 2008, 04:10:19 PM
Quote from: Alatriel
Ok... so to add on to this, I have a problem when a group of people who are allowed are standing in Hempstead having a conversation and a banned raced character walks up and just stands there and nothing is done about it.  I understand that if a GM is not on, then there's not a whole lot we can do about it, but I think it is poor rp, and I've seen way too much of it lately.  Just my 2 cents worth...


Just for clarification, which part is poor RP, that the original group says nothing when at least the Lawful ones probably should or that the banned-race character is there despite what should be better detection at the gate preventing it?  Or both?
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Alatriel on June 04, 2008, 05:35:17 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
Just for clarification, which part is poor RP, that the original group says nothing when at least the Lawful ones probably should or that the banned-race character is there despite what should be better detection at the gate preventing it?  Or both?


Well, one, my character is chaotic, so she has no faith that the laws of the city will do anything, and so far that belief has been upheld easily by the fact that there are dark elves, half ogres, and half giants in the city pretty much whenever they feel like it.  But given the fact that people know that a gm is not on, I think that they should at least be respectful enough to assume that the two guards stationed at the gate of the city wouldn't just let them walk on in like it's no big deal.  Once they're in, well there's not a whole lot that people can do except deal with the situation.  But please, if you play a banned-race character, such as a half-ogre, half-giant, or any part dark elf, don't expect an elf to just go up and be friendly.  If your character is that dumb, well that's fine, but as a player, don't expect it.  In my humble opinion that's one of those things you should take as a given.  So if a half-ogre/giant/dark elf or hell, dwarf, gnome or whatever else walks in on a conversation in elvish between several elves, don't expect them to suddenly switch to speaking common so that the general population can understand.  Most of the time, it is done anyways, but especially when the race is not even supposed to be allowed in the city upon penalty of arrest or death, well... you get my point.

I guess mostly I just wish people would at least notify the gm channel if they want to break the laws so that the laws are not mocked quite so much which makes for poor rp on all accounts because the situation simply shouldn't be happening with 2 guards at the gate and Trent walking around the city on patrol.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Alatriel on June 04, 2008, 05:57:52 PM
I just wanted to add, sorry for getting on my soapbox about this.  I have played too many games where people get away with things simply because they say "well, if a gm wants to do something about it, let them" and I think that is cheesy.  GM's can't always be around, they have lives and jobs and everything else too, and I think that players should just play their characters and stop being cheesy.  This extends to more than just the laws of port hempstead, but I love roleplaying, and when people start acting cheesy in any way, even if it is simply to think that they can be a jerk and then roll a charisma check and if they roll high people will like them... it doesn't work and it makes things frustrating and difficult for others.  You have to back things up with your actions in play.  And as far as the laws go... just follow them or expect and ask for the consequences.  

And yes, this is coming from the person who almost tried to get herself kicked out of the city or arrested herself :)   I don't have a problem with people breaking the laws as long as they're playing with a full deck of cards, and haven't just taken out the Aces so that they feel they are invincible.
Title: Re: Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means
Post by: Nehetsrev on June 05, 2008, 10:22:55 AM
Quote from: Alatriel
I just wanted to add, sorry for getting on my soapbox about this.  I have played too many games where people get away with things simply because they say "well, if a gm wants to do something about it, let them" and I think that is cheesy.  GM's can't always be around, they have lives and jobs and everything else too, and I think that players should just play their characters and stop being cheesy.  This extends to more than just the laws of port hempstead, but I love roleplaying, and when people start acting cheesy in any way, even if it is simply to think that they can be a jerk and then roll a charisma check and if they roll high people will like them... it doesn't work and it makes things frustrating and difficult for others.  You have to back things up with your actions in play.  And as far as the laws go... just follow them or expect and ask for the consequences.  

And yes, this is coming from the person who almost tried to get herself kicked out of the city or arrested herself :)   I don't have a problem with people breaking the laws as long as they're playing with a full deck of cards, and haven't just taken out the Aces so that they feel they are invincible.


Sorry to go off-topic a bit here, but I wanted to add my view on situations involving characters that act like jerks and then roll charisma checks.  Since Charisma is really meant to be a determination of strength of personality and pressence, if a character acts like a jerk around me, and then rolls a high charisma check, I'll just play it off that they succeeded in making themselves look like that much more of a jerk and really supremely offended my character who isn't soon to forget the encounter.  In essense, your charisma attribute acts to amplify your character's perceived personality in whatever manner they act, thus nice actions will engender more positive responses with higher charisma, while mean actions will engender more negative responses with higher charisma.
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