The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Interia_Discordius on December 02, 2008, 04:21:08 PM
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What's the view on these guys? I assumed they were hated, wretched creatures on the surface, but I see a lot of tolerance for them from others.
On that note, where do giants, trolls, orcs, and other humanoid races stand with the common people? What about kobolds and goblins?
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Dark elves:
Hate them, kill on sight ask questions later, they're evil, bad, don't trust them, "they killed my family in Hlint/Port Hempstead/Spellgard with their raid", evil incarnate, steal your children, burn your crops, rape your wives, kill your husbands, use your children in dark rituals, poison you, backstab you, hate you, and so on.
where do giants, trolls, orcs, and other humanoid races stand with the common people? What about kobolds and goblins?
These all scare the hell out of them.
Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.
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Funny how many "good" people like dark elves these days...
*gets his hunting crossbow and goes looking for Sion and Ni'Haer(?)*
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Righto. Thanks. I just needed to know how a typical Llane would think of people who protect dark elves and the like as well as the races themselves.
Muchos appreciated!
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I just needed to know how a typical Llane would think of people who protect dark elves
Traitors to their kind, collaborators, fiends, murderers, .
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actually, Shiff, I was expecting WAY more hostility, and it never happened, so I rolled with it. I'm thinking of moving Sion to an evil alignment later, rather than CN after his 10th lvl... but the hunting would definitely be enjoyed... :)
Thanks to all of those who tried hunting/killing/eradicating/insulting sion. :)
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Righto. Thanks. I just needed to know how a typical Llane would think of people who protect dark elves and the like as well as the races themselves.
Muchos appreciated!
and most likely, you would take that smarminess of hers and times it by ten................ thousand
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and another thought of mine came to be... I realize that Hektor never got the nasty treatment I would expect either.... I was hoping for someone to run by and give the whole "Hulk smash!" sermon about him, and why he should be ran off/killed....
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Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.
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Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving her right, not changing her opinion.
glad to help. :)
EDITING because I don't wish to make another post....:
You know, there is another thread about this here (http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/188842-what-means-play-drow.html).
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I will just quote myself
The "average Hlintian" considers them evil.
Dark Elves are known to be evil, this is not speculation, this is a fact:
The Dark Elves have a millennia spanning history of War and Destruction. Bear in mind that there was a great Betrayal around -2311 which led the elves to separate (see the timeline). Agreed, this is almost 3700 years ago, but since elves can live to about 700 years, this is hardly long ago from an elvish perspective. So throwing the past away because it is long ago and elves and dark elves hating each other is stereotypical, does not really apply if you look at it from this perspective.
If we go forward in time, the Dark Elves captured the human city of Westgate in the year -103 (see the timeline), they destroyed the city of Port Hampshire in the year 843 (see the timeline, this is only about 500 years ago). I am sure if you ask several characters in Hlint, they can tell you the towns of Hlint and Haven were also nearly destroyed by the Dark Elves in the not-too-distant past. They also tried to stop all crafting by destroying and blowing up nearly every crafting location in Mistone.
Then at the end of last year or so (real-time) they laid siege to Hlint and nearly occupied it.
Then more recently, they started capturing people, poisoning them with a poison that will kill them if they oppose the drow. They then proceeded to lay siege to Spellgard, occupy it for a few weeks, then left after getting whatever it was they needed.
Therefore, treating them with an amount of distrust or even hostility is judging them on their past which is filled with evil deeds.
Claiming your character doesn't know about drow is very hard to justify. Dark Elves have been committing evil acts for millennia. This will have worked their way into local folklore, for example, when your character was a child he was probably told by his parents things like “Do not stray from home too far, else the Dark elves will take you” or something along those lines.
So your character has probably heard all his/her life that Dark Elves are greedy, dangerous, treacherous creatures who attack whenever they can and then as an adventurer you have surely been on quests where Dark Elves were involved (as enemies) or heard stories of such adventures.
Forgive the use of old names :)
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Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.
By PCs I take it. Something to consider: every time she shuns a dark elf, she gets support from all the non-displayed-in-game commoners and other folk close to her (including clergy NPC!) that they are evil and she is right in her shunning and hostility.
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and little angry halflings that happen to be part of the Toran clergy. *nods sagely, and presents Lyr*
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Too rich that Daniella and Sophia actually agree on something !
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Too rich that Daniella and Sophia actually agree on something !
the angry halfling? or the dark elf?
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Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.
Yep too true.
Most treat darkelves as a kind of misunderstood black elves suffering from prejudice. Not like a homicidal, evil, enslaving, torturing etc... people who has killed and looted their way across the millenia
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Yep too true.
Most treat darkelves as a kind of misunderstood black elves suffering from prejudice. Not like a homicidal, evil, enslaving, torturing etc... people wheo has killed and looted their way across the millenia
ya... I'm trying to get Ni'hear in trouble with the toranites now.... *shifty eyes*
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Don't have to. Tyra already has plans ;)
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ya... I'm trying to get Ni'hear in trouble with the toranites now.... *shifty eyes*
Let's see how far you'll get me in trouble. ;)
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do it! do it! do it! *chants*
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By PCs I take it. Something to consider: every time she shuns a dark elf, she gets support from all the non-displayed-in-game commoners and other folk close to her (including clergy NPC!) that they are evil and she is right in her shunning and hostility.
*Addressing an angry commoner* Put away that pitchfork, it's just one, and he's no threat...
*makes shooing motions to the crowd gathering around the half-orc*
*eyes the mob warily, trying to gauge its mood before speaking up* Alright, go back to your homes everyone. I'll escort this dark elf out of town peacefully, there's no need for you to be worried.
Okay, it may be a force-emoting npcs, but the point is there are ways of reminding other players that commoners are people too, even in absence of a DM, and even if you play a character who willingly associates with dark elves.
This conversation comes up from time to time, (I made the mistake of bringing it up on IRC the other day), and I think there is a consensus that the PC and NPC communities have different attitudes. There may be valid reasons for this, but that shouldn't give players free rein to pretend like the NPCs don't exist.
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After an encounter win one of Min's PC's I occasionally RP "people watching", per se. Never thought of it, but it is fun! :)
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Personally, I think that everyone who helped hide dark elves, especially ones who were known, and running from the law, should have been brought up on charges of harboring a criminal rather than allowed to speak on his behalf as a "character witness" but that's just me *shrugs* As was said before, it's not a case of racial prejudice. It's not that they just have a different color skin. It's like people are forgetting the dark ages, and forgetting everything that dark elves stand for. Just to assume that a dark elf pc is good simply because they are a pc? umm... no.
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not my rules...
*shrugs, the pokes Alatriel playfully before running far far away*
EDIT: then again... you could always ask for appeal or something....
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*looks around, then does the "I killed the thread!" dance*
:)
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I've read all the posts above and I do admit that if I was Lance, Daniella, Aeronn, or any of his other paladin friends, I would probably press charges agianst Tod for harboring a fugitive or helping one get away even if the trial has already happened. His tolerance is almost the same as his tolerance for a fellow Halfling, I have been using the "Oh, he/she is a PC, he/she must be good and lawful!" to sort of metagame Tod's trust in that character. He trusts quickly, that's just him, but now that I think about it, he has gone too far and I have done a poor job in keeping the game realistic in that area. I'll be trying to do better in the future, I promise!
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All it takes is one word to the courts and Sion will be locked away. When I say 'locked away', I mean the PC will be non-playable. No execution, no exile. Both of these have a chance for escape and freedom. He will be chained for life. Once I see this statement made IC, the authorities will seize Sion, and it will be over. Judge Kirus made the terms and even told Sion what it meant in great detail. If Sion is willing to try to fool the courts, then he is in for a rude awakening. That was the only chance he has to stay alive and for Link092 to keep his PC. I will be posting Judge Kirus' deliberations in a few.
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If you need to, chain him away. don't go far out of the way to keep him playable... just a thought.
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O.o
I think Interia's thread was hi-jacked....
*bows* apologies. :)
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As to Interia's original question, the goblins do feel a good amount of prejudice in the lands. We just attempt to be as cute and useful enough to be cast aside as a minor nuisance. Though some, such as the Lightbringers and Daniella absolutely refuse to group with them, which is great. Cute as they are, the Wargpack is hardly a group of boyscouts! The only reasons we haven't been crushed by angry mobs are 1) we remain garbed at all times, so you have to get to know them a little first before figuring out the secret that we're not just feral halflings, 2) they are incredibly diplomatic, and try to pass themselves off as innocent defenders of nature as much as possible. We make it a point to point out alternate targets like the undead, werewolves and Rael as out enemies, to try and divert any fear against us into mutual assistance. We look out for those who are good to us, and make certain to hammer out pacts as we go along. 3) we are almost always in the wilds, so the common folk don't really see us enough to seek us out and 4) should anybody want some of this, Nonac is standing right behind them with blades drawn and half a dozen dire wolves in the wait, just that they dont see it! :D
Despite the various downsides to playing a monstrous character, namely lack of commerce and easy grouping, we have been having a blast playing them. Grovel has been more fun than any other character I have ever submitted, mostly due to that vagabond "exile of the wastelands" aspect to it. The goblin tribe has its own sense of community, and we are always looking for new blood of whatever species, (especially dark elves!) so long as they are useful and stick up for us in kind.
My deep dwarf Gloom treads a nice tightrope of being unabashedly evil to an extreme, but lawful to a T. With him its an entirely different game; while the goblins try to downplay their evil qualities to dismissible savagery, Gloom almost basks in his role as a Prantz-born tyrant. Dark Dwarves now hold a surface city of the greatest renown, and have military stations positioned around Leringard and Mariner's Hold since the dragon attacks. Rael's massive donations to the rebuilding efforts have bought their race some minor acceptance, at least by the lawful authorities... but those with any good in them should rightly fear them as the heartless slavers that they are. The whole adage, "it is better to be feared than to be loved" rings true to them. For all of the recent "benevolence" Rael has shown in recent events, there should be some foreboding sentiment that with every good deed, there is a sinister motive with strings attached behind it. Remember the recent atrocities, namely the executions of Waylend's daughter and the poor starving deep gnomes of Beryl. The relations between Mistone and Prantz would be much like the Cold-War relations between the US and the USSR. Sure they're not at war currently, but MOST of the folks in Mistone would ask themselves... "why the heck not!" And ALL Voraxians should want to kill Deep Dwarves on sight. Grenna has done a really good job RPing this, as have Chaynce and Shiff. Every meeting with Gloom invariably ends in death threats or a trip to the arena.
Please feel free to HATE Gloom. He is evil above and beyond most of his ilk, delighting in torturing his enemy as they die, making artwork out of their remains as macabre trophies. Trouble Tempest saw him in action one day and utterly refused to have anything to do with him afterward. Every Voraxian should look to a deep dwarf with utter contempt and war on their minds. Most Dorandites have cooled relations with them, finding them useful in gaining prescious ore for crafting. Bjorn on the other hand hates them to an extreme... you will NEVER see him set foot in Prantz unless it is to do war. (he even placed bounties onRael's head before, and is considered an enemy of the state, or even a terrorist!) This is mostly due to Rael's actions against the Berylites and his allegiances to Bloodstone however, and not a racial hatred. Prantz is something to be feared and reviled, and fought against. If any of you surfacers knew half the stuff they were responsible for in that city, you would do well to cast out the deep dwarves even sooner than the dark elves. At least the dark elves are disorganized! The deep dwarves have kind of insidiously installed themselves into the global politics and power stucture, and are scheming on par with Milara these days.
Still, nobody else gathers for less than Gloom is willing to be paid! So aye, not only is he evil, he just outsourced your greenstone fortunes... doubly evil!
I kind of made Annie just to offset the blight that Gloom was putting into my soul. You make that one character so evil that you start passing out at night to have dreams of torturing gnomes and slaughtering puppies, and you just NEED that little happy little brownie girl picking flowers, pick-me-up in your heart!
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That's it! I'm moving to Prantz!
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All it takes is one word to the courts and Sion will be locked away. When I say 'locked away', I mean the PC will be non-playable. No execution, no exile. Both of these have a chance for escape and freedom. He will be chained for life. Once I see this statement made IC, the authorities will seize Sion, and it will be over. Judge Kirus made the terms and even told Sion what it meant in great detail. If Sion is willing to try to fool the courts, then he is in for a rude awakening. That was the only chance he has to stay alive and for Link092 to keep his PC. I will be posting Judge Kirus' deliberations in a few.
I have to question this though. Forgive me about it but still. Since the 2 years + I have been playing here, this is the first time I see someone push the limit of limiting the playability of a pc of a player to the point of making him totally unplayable permanently. This, to me, pauses two problems. First the persons that are here are here to have fun, and this is something that can ultimately have it's negative effect on that.
Second, the same things should have been done to all others dark elves pc's. This is the first time I see this pushed this far in my two years+ here for a dark elf pc, and that is with many Dark elves haven been played and some even discovered as dark elves publicly.
I have seen two RL months limboness, and maybe more, a few times (I remember the druid (who wasn't a darky) that had killed the tailor because he wanted the gold bear, sorry names are my worst nightmare) But permanent limbo, is almost like having a death sentence being made permanent, while the soul mother didn't take the last strand. Personally, and although I agree that actions have consequences and you have to also accept how other races would react to you, this is still very much pushing the envelope toward depriving someone of being able to have fun with a pc he has taken the time to develop prior to submission and afterward. Now if the player is okay with that, that is fine, but this is a thin line to walk on in my opinion.
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Assuming Sion has any friends, doesn't this give them the opportunity for something like a CDQ to (try and) break him out of jail?
Doesn't this action give the other dark elves out there real impetus to remain incognito?
Actions should have consequences, otherwise its all rather meaningless.
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Since the 2 years + I have been playing here, this is the first time I see someone push the limit of limiting the playability of a pc of a player to the point of making him totally unplayable permanently. This, to me, pauses two problems. First the persons that are here are here to have fun, and this is something that can ultimately have it's negative effect on that.
@HellBlazer, playing any monstrous race, or any hated race is no walk in the park. While i to let everybody have fun, that -doesn't- mean that we just let things slide. There comes a point where we will say final is final. Remember Twidget didn't say that it will be the next time or the time after if whatever happens. He just said, that it could....and that is part of the fun of playing a Dark Elf and the other monstrous races out there. ;-)
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I have to question this though. Forgive me about it but still. Since the 2 years + I have been playing here, this is the first time I see someone push the limit of limiting the playability of a pc of a player to the point of making him totally unplayable permanently. This, to me, pauses two problems. First the persons that are here are here to have fun, and this is something that can ultimately have it's negative effect on that.
Second, the same things should have been done to all others dark elves pc's. This is the first time I see this pushed this far in my two years+ here for a dark elf pc, and that is with many Dark elves haven been played and some even discovered as dark elves publicly.
I have seen two RL months limboness, and maybe more, a few times (I remember the druid (who wasn't a darky) that had killed the tailor because he wanted the gold bear, sorry names are my worst nightmare) But permanent limbo, is almost like having a death sentence being made permanent, while the soul mother didn't take the last strand. Personally, and although I agree that actions have consequences and you have to also accept how other races would react to you, this is still very much pushing the envelope toward depriving someone of being able to have fun with a pc he has taken the time to develop prior to submission and afterward. Now if the player is okay with that, that is fine, but this is a thin line to walk on in my opinion.
It's not the first time.
The most prominent example is the Soul of a Lost Ancient finale with the group that went after Bloodstone and his bloodwell directly. It was on the table, and suggested by Leanthar, that a horrible catastrophe could well cause anyone involved to be lost (i.e. dead) permanently. This is on the order of 20-30 characters, all of whom were high-to-epic levels. Joining and continuing on that quest came with the stipulation of accepting your character's fate, one way or the other.
Decisions on making a character unplayable or NPCed are never entered into lightly. They won't be done at the whim of a single GM, and they won't be done without clear and OOC communication with the player. Ultimately though it comes down to player actions. Most times in the past, players have backed down when the potential concequences have been spelled out.
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Another example, a little closer to topic at hand. There is a PC rotting in the cells of Hempstead for pushing the monstrous race limitation too far and then giving up on their own trial.
After numerous infractions, warnings IC and OOC, the character was finally caught and given a trial. There was some attempt at escape at the trial that failed and then locking away of the PC permanently.
~row
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I'm all for making monstrous folks incognito, but just make certain not to metagame knowledge of somebody's race because it pops up on the server status page. EVERYBODY tries to peek under Nonac and Grovels hood, and often accuse the fully armored, human sounding and gnome-looking Mangle-Or of goblinhood on sight. And yet, have they ever ONCE tried to peek under Willy's hood? No, only because they look at the server page and see "Forrest Gnome". Meanwhile, he's dressed almost exactly like the other gobbos, short, green and hooded. At least somebody should accuse him one of these days, but the player, not the character, knows what Willy really is, so the character acts on player knowledge.
The problem with "all dark elves should remain incognito" is thus.. metagamers spoil it. Then you have hooded dark elves just walking through hempstead fields getting chased and questions and waylaid by paladins, while a similarly dressed surface elf gets a free ride. Somebody should just make a surface elf wizard in a black hood with spider jewelry, like Mith. You'll notice quickly... nobody accuses you because they read your bio or peeked at the screen. We already blanked the deity field on the server page because of this, maybe its time to blank the subrace field as well?
The solution? Some dark elves should go on a quest to make a cursed potion that turns ALL peoples skin black, and dump in in the Hempstead well. Suddenly there's a spike in the dark elf populations, and the townguards must execute themselves on sight. Of course that would not happen, because the NPC townguards would just check the server status page.
Of course if you hit a high level, most will metagame that you are a good dark elf because they see the purple text above your head. People tend to only chase after and persecute the monstrous races with yellow, green or white text... skin color is moot once the text gets red or purple. That whole self-preservation thing. I so wish that this feature was eliminated as well... yon multi-color floaty texts.
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While I agree 100% with you, Lonn, Would I be wrong to assume a Goblin Grovel who has a Goblin voice set to really stick it out, would sound QUITE different from Willy, who is a gnome...?
And wouldn't an orc or ogre sound different then the average man?
Sure, Dark Elves and Regular elves prolly don't sound that different, but do we know that?
Oh, and lets be honest people. Has anyone here worn a hood that was so deep and dark you couldn't see a face in it at all? No. They don't exist, why? Because you wouldn't even be able to see out of it! If light can't get into the hood, your eyes have nothing to see! Did we forget biology? Retina + Light = Seeing! My point? Unless all these hooded monsters start also wearing veils in their hoods, or Ninja masks as well, and RP the fact or make it know, I'm pretty sure I can see your face. I still roll my Spot check to be fair. The first time I met Grovel I wasn't 100% sure IC, and I stated that, but I have also seen Grovel without his mask or Helmet so he's got a Big sign on his back that reads "Goblin" forever now. So does Ni'Haer. He took his hood off infront of Tyra on the road to Fort Llast, no less. So yes, Metagaming is bad, and its hard to avoid, but how hidden are you really inside that hood? It's a Hood! If you can't see into it, how can someone inside it see out of it!
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Willy's voice is hideous! He picked Xanos, who sounds like he gargled with battery acid. He also speaks in the first person.
Mith walked around fully garbed in all black as an elf, casting copious amounts of Necromancy. Nobody questioned him, for that matter.
If you look under Grovel's hood, he's wearing a wolf mask.
Point is though, if you MUST peek under ever monstrous person's hood, but just shrug and ignore the Willy's and Miths of the world, then somethings rotten in the state of Denmark.
Tyra has the new suit with the facemask and goggles and no skin showing, how many times have people demanded that the dark elf must unmask?
Now two things really crack me up that I have seen in the past...
1) People seeing dark-elfyness through barkskin or stoneskin. I would run into this all the time with Rakish. What, surface elves get oak and dark elves get birch?
2) The 100% accuracy people have in identifying a druid shifted in animal form. A little cat sits there in the street. Suddenly EVERYBODY at the fountain MUST get up and inspect this cat! If the cat runs off, rather than shrug and go back to their bench as they would with any normal cat, they must CHASE the cat all over town! "You! come back here, cat! Aaaargh!" I keep having this image in my head of some deranged guy sprinting after every cat in town, with little girls crying "NO! You Leave Mister Fluffers alone!" and townguards tackling him.
Sadly, this is all just a combination of human nature and the way Bioware made the engine. One idea for disguises in the next version would be "variable labeling". If there must be floaty text, then make it editable from the player's side. The character file name could be a seperate, hidden and static entity, while the player name that others see above their heads could be anything you think of. "a dark hooded figure", "Cat", "Wolf", "so NOT a dark elf", etc. Also a player portrait blanking feature, so you can choose to display it or not.
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Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.
You just haven't tried being hostile to the right ones I guess...;)
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You just haven't tried being hostile to the right ones I guess...;)
You mean there are "right" dark elves to be hostile to? I thought that was across the board? :D
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Heheh... Yeah, if Darilith was a female, Gloom would be in love. He's got a foreboding aura of evil that rivals most child murderers.
I made Rakish way back in the ways of V2 when Hlint would routinely have 4-5 CG dark elves all singing Azattan hymns in the streets, trying to offset that whole stereotype of every adventuring dark elf must be good. Too bad I horribly botched his build, the Dread Pirate was fun to play. Gloom I made for much the same reason, people just seem way to complacent with deep dwarves for landlords. CG people living in Haft Lake, not making a single move against Rael at all, as he's executing emaciated deep gnomes in town square. Gloom serves as an arrogant boasting lightning rod for all that hate, a reminder that his race is very much the embodiment of tyranny.
I kind of wish CE was allowed, since I think that much of the reason people diss dark elves is because we mechanically limit the extent of dark elf-ness they can achieve before warning them about yanking the character away. The above sentiments of locking them up for life should they slip up in keeping incognito further makes RPing them a literal rock and a hard place. On the one hand you have to limit the chaos factor of your evil character, lest they take it away from you. If you started as CN, the most common alignment dark elves start with, then you almost strive to be good, because if you get to evil they take it away from you. And if you try to make friends, then everybody knows what you are, and they arrest you for months in a cell and potentially take it away from you. And then you can't even properly remain incognito for long, because somebody decides that you look darker than Mith because of what the server status page says. It's pretty difficult RPing on such a narrow tightrope, slip to much either way, left right, up down, and it's kaput. Then you have people critiquing that you're not playing a "proper" dark elf... well, proper dark elves are CE! My hats off to people who manage to get by this, its not easy at all.
As for those who critique the way other monstrous races are played, I suggest they make their own character of said race and serve an example. If you see a trend of dark elves who dont fit your mold, or goblins or deep dwarves, wemics, orcs etc... then make one and show them how its done.
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I'm all for making monstrous folks incognito, but just make certain not to metagame knowledge of somebody's race because it pops up on the server status page.
Eh I got to agree with you there totally. It happened to me recently. Funny thing is that there is a few races thave have red eyes, and yet the person was able to pinpoint Fehrial race straight up. Or people image physical diformity for him that he clearly doesn't have (even if it is clearly indicated in the pc info card). That is usually a minor inconvenience but can get frustrating with time, I have no doubt about that.
I think you are right that the races should also be taken out of the server status page.
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Mmm... off note, dark elves are usually NE than CE. They do have to work together to some extent, after all.
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The problem is not what information does and doesn't show on Server Status. The problem isn't that the info, with a quick search of the Character Approvals board, is all at a person's fingertips.
The problem is bad players[/b] metagaming the knowledge, suspicion, etc.
The point of this thread shouldn't be "Oh, remove the temptation from those who succumb!" It should be "Don't succumb."
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Yes, but once you've been burned by a dark elf, any time you see somoene of elven build covered completely from head to toe... there's all the suspicion you need. Generally elves don't do that.
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The helmets are hideous so I chose the hood! :p Yeah, I've noticed quite a trend with the metagaming, when meeting a new character they immediately do a spot check on me, but not on my other hooded friends. Sometimes even doing a spot check on me while having barkskin :|
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I want spot checks made on me :( Llane is covered head to toe at all times, though her hood keeps her features more or less clear... she uses the hood like someone would use a hoodie, more or less.
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The helmets are hideous so I chose the hood! :p Yeah, I've noticed quite a trend with the metagaming, when meeting a new character they immediately do a spot check on me, but not on my other hooded friends. Sometimes even doing a spot check on me while having barkskin :|
Whenever somebody does a spot check on you with barkskin, tell them they have just identified a Wood Elf! *cackles*
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The helmets are hideous so I chose the hood! :p Yeah, I've noticed quite a trend with the metagaming, when meeting a new character they immediately do a spot check on me, but not on my other hooded friends. Sometimes even doing a spot check on me while having barkskin :|
I don't generally do spot checks on hooded humans because... they're just too big to be a dark elf. However... I'm waiting for the day when I'm proven wrong!
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From now on I'm spot checking everyone ... even their reflections >.<
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Well, not all humans are too big to be dark elves. I honestly wish we could see our chosen height differences or that people put that in their bio because... I played a human before I left once in Layonara, and she was only 5'2''. I don't know off the top of my head the maximum height for a dark elf, but that's not -that- big of a difference, ya'know?
Edit: And really, I don't think a spot check is necessary to make sure... I personally ask in OOC if the hood can be seen through, and if it can't, I'd probably just keep my own distance. That's kind of weird regardless of race.
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I wouldn't trust the in-game character heights and dimensions all that much. Humans span from 3 to 8 feet tall on Monday Night Raw. Big Show or Kahli would easily pass for half-giant, and Hornswoggle might as well be Willy. Sadly, NWN forces us to to conform to one racial height, and either fat or skinny. If somebody made a fat dark elf, he'd look more like my uncle Ron, around 5'6" with a beer belly. My old buddy Hrothgar was 7' tall in game, but he was still mechanically shorter than half-orcs who are around 6'4" on average.
For example.. Rak and Kor are mechanically shorter than half orcs and humans! NWN made orcs way too short, and then you cross breed them with humans and the half-orcs gain more than a foot in height. Just doesnt add up.
Half Orcs and Half Elves should really be able to pass for humans as well. Not all of them have very pronounced pointed ears or tusks. (in fact it specifically says in the D&D handbook that they can pass for ugly humans) You remember that guy who was in The Hills Have Eyes and Weird Science? Michael Berryman, with the mis-shaped head and ears that stuck out. He was also in Devil's rejects too... made a career on being one of the ugliest guys on camera. He I could see could be mistaken for a half-orc.
I wonder how many people got beaten down in Hempstead simply for being born too big and ugly, despite their fully human parentage? And keep in mind this is in the Dark Ages of science, where people dont understand things like neurocysticfibrosis (elephant man's disease), birth defects, gigantism and dwarfism. Could a dwarf with gigantism pass for a human? And a halfling child pass for Brownie? Size is very variable, even without genetic conditions at play.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/1629080913_6de01e34cf.jpg)
NO HEMPSTEAD FOR MICHAEL BERRYMAN!
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/248/thegreatkhaalimx7.png)
LET ME INTO CITY! AM HUMAN, JUST PITUITARY GLAND GO WRONG! ARGH!
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What Interia suggests is generally the better route to go than a spot check. Good RP is RP that allows for communication both OOC and IC, and in which each player works with the rest to develop his/her character rather than using mechanics (like spot checks) to override player communication. As much as is possible, I suggest reserving checks for NPCs, with the exception being that the other player asks you to roll a check. Sure, someone could refuse, even when obvious, to admit some aspect of their character, but nine times out of ten, it's the other way around, with players being forced via unwanted mechanical checks to give some secret about their character that they'd prefer to be discovered via RP rather than through numbers. Roleplay vs. Rollplay.
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What Interia suggests is generally the better route to go than a spot check. Good RP is RP that allows for communication both OOC and IC, and in which each player works with the rest to develop his/her character rather than using mechanics (like spot checks) to override player communication. As much as is possible, I suggest reserving checks for NPCs, with the exception being that the other player asks you to roll a check. Sure, someone could refuse, even when obvious, to admit some aspect of their character, but nine times out of ten, it's the other way around, with players being forced via unwanted mechanical checks to give some secret about their character that they'd prefer to be discovered via RP rather than through numbers. Roleplay vs. Rollplay.
Generally if I roll a spot check, I'll ask if someone is completely covered from head to toe, then the spot check is not necessarily to see if I notice skin, but if I notice that they are covered from head to toe. And then generally they are not asked to unmask/unhood/etc themselves. They're simply asked to show their forearm. But the spot check is overall not used to discover them mechanically, it's more for my own character on how observant she is. I figure if someone is covered from head to toe, they're covered completely, so just like you can roll a natural twenty to find gold... if there isn't any gold... um... I don't care how good you rolled, there is no gold. So... I don't care how good your spot check is, if there isn't any skin showing, there isn't any skin showing.
However... you may realize... "Hey... there's no skin showing!" And then you take it from there.
And this could go for any race.
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I guess it comes down to respecting other people's roleplay.
No one is given points for breaking another character's carefully crafted storyline.
It's no one's job to out anyone.
There should be no preemptive peeking under hoods.
That only comes after they've done something wrong, you've chased them halfway across Layonara, fought hand-to-hand on the rope bridge swaying over the chasm, wrestled them to the ground, and have uttered the immortal lines, "now we get to see who you really are..."
*respect*
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Beautifully worded, Script Wrecked. That just summed up my entire true view of the hood deal.
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The problem is bad players metagaming the knowledge, suspicion, etc.
I don't think it should be called bad players. I don't think anyone has the right to call another that. Yes there is a lot that metagame and some just get more upset over than others. Many are still learning the ropes. Often a polite tell helps out.
But I don't think there is any way a hood is going to hide someones whole face. That is only a game mechanics that hides the face. I don't even see how a helmet would even hide the color of someone skin. You see their eyelids so your going to see the color of them.
Also I think there is more tolerance in dark elf since there is one that is high standing in the world of Layo and often sitting uncovered out on the benches of Hempstead. Nothing against the character or the player. But if one can prove themselves to be worthy shouldn't others be able to prove themselves. If all dark elves should be killed on sight.. What if someone that has never been to Hempstead before walks in and sees that dark elf standing say in Hempstead fields and they try to kill her.. what would happen?
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I don't think it should be called bad players. I don't think anyone has the right to call another that. Yes there is a lot that metagame and some just get more upset over than others. Many are still learning the ropes. Often a polite tell helps out.
You're quite right about folks who are new, and simply don't know. There's no reason to be harsh with folks unaccustomed to and unaware of some of the more difficult-to-separate streams of information that come in.
But when folks that should and do know better continue to metagame, that is where they become (at least in that respect) bad players.
But I don't think there is any way a hood is going to hide someones whole face. That is only a game mechanics that hides the face. I don't even see how a helmet would even hide the color of someone skin. You see their eyelids so your going to see the color of them.
Again, you're quite right about hoods - as has been mentioned before. My Thanks actually speak quite clearly about my opinions on posts. :) A helm, well... That depends on the type of helm, the angle of the light, and innumerable other things. And goggles still beat that out. But! As has been mentioned before respecting another's RP is tantamount. A Tell saying "Hey, is any skin exposed?" or somesuch is a wonderful way to open up avenues for RP without maynardism.
Also I think there is more tolerance in dark elf since there is one that is high standing in the world of Layo and often sitting uncovered out on the benches of Hempstead.
NO. NO NO NO a thousand times NO. With respect to Alantha, I really feel that that character should never be in Hempstead with exposed skin, unless she felt like inciting a riot. Because that is what would happen. I don't care how powerful or well-known a given Dark Elf is - Joe Commoner knows for a fact (and a well-informed fact, at that) that Dark Elves are EVIL. He doesn't care what it's name is, how shapely it may be, and so forth... It's a Dark Elf, and it's going to kill him and his family. He is going to run away, screaming - all the more, if he knows that that Dark Elf is so powerful, she's invented her own spells. This is PRECISELY why there are laws against monstrous races entering the city, for all that the city's governance knows that there may be one or two individuals who aren't blackhearted murderers who will eat your children and animate their bones.
Nothing against the character or the player. But if one can prove themselves to be worthy shouldn't others be able to prove themselves.
No. I don't care how Epic Alantha (or any other well-known "goodie" Dark Elf) is, not a single one has truly proven him or herself "worthy" in the eyes of Joe Commoner - because Dark Elves are monsters.
If all dark elves should be killed on sight.. What if someone that has never been to Hempstead before walks in and sees that dark elf standing say in Hempstead fields and they try to kill her.. what would happen?
I would applaud that person's RP of fear and hatred of Dark Elves. He'd probably get killed, and a large number of PCs would despise him for (cue sarcasm)attacking someone obviously so well-loved (end sarcasm).
I have said it before, and will likely be saying it again in six months, when this thread pops up again... The problems very rarely stem from the actions of the Dark Elven players themselves, but rather from the players reacting to them (and the NPCs NOT reacting to them).
Note: This post contains over-emphasis on a few points, for clarity's sake. I've got nothing against Alantha, Dark Elves in general, or folk who do their best to not metagame. And most especially Lynn, for adding to the discussion and giving me something to respond to! :) Please continue.
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Just to consider the other side of the coin, I think one of the motivating factors for preemptive peeking is that no-one likes to be duped, hood-winked, and/or have the-wool-pulled-over-their-eyes, in Real Life, or in-game.
[INDENT]"What, there was a dark-elf next to you all that time and you didn't even notice?" *incredulous*[/INDENT]
Well, I don't think there is any getting around that. However, no-one really thinks you're a dummy (or your character). Everyone knows that this character is really a dark-elf/goblin/other-undesirable-race. Heck, they've probably chosen a portrait and/or soundset to that effect. So, you know they're what they are, and they know that you know, and you know what, they know that you know and (probably) appreciate that you aren't meta-ing their character.
To me, it is a small price to pay to facilitate their story, to enable their fun. That's what's it's all about, isn't it? It is your gift to them, and to the greater roleplay on this server.
And just think, (as and) when their character is finally revealed, your character gets to do outrage like they're going for an Oscar. ;)
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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... Lets gather up these threads and sticky them neatly together, so Stephen doesn't have to go make a post for it every six months.... ;)
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Just to consider the outside of the coin, I think one of the motivating factors for preemptive peeking is that no-one likes to be duped, hood-winked, and/or have the-wool-pulled-over-their-eyes, in Real Life, or in-game.
[INDENT]"What, there was a dark-elf next to you all that time and you didn't even notice?" *incredulous*[/INDENT]
Well, I don't think there is any getting around that. However, no-one really thinks you're a dummy (or your character). Everyone knows that this character is really a dark-elf/goblin/other-undesirable-race. Heck, they've probably chosen a portrait and/or soundset to that effect. So, you know they're what they are, and they know that you know, and you know what, they know that you know and (probably) appreciate that you aren't meta-ing their character.
To me, it is a small price to pay to facilitate their story, to enable their fun. That's what's it's all about, isn't it? It is your gift to them, and to the greater roleplay on this server.
And just think, (as and) when their character is finally revealed, your character gets to do outrage like they're going for an Oscar. ;)
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
Hmm... that's exactly what happened to Alatriel and Aerimor with Iradril...
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Also I think there is more tolerance in dark elf since there is one that is high standing in the world of Layo and often sitting uncovered out on the benches of Hempstead. Nothing against the character or the player.
Please see one of my first posts in this thread:
Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.
But if one can prove themselves to be worthy shouldn't others be able to prove themselves.
No, because people don't want to run the risk. Too many times have they been hurt/betrayed/killed/etc.
If all dark elves should be killed on sight.. What if someone that has never been to Hempstead before walks in and sees that dark elf standing say in Hempstead fields and they try to kill her.. what would happen?
We'd have a fight, and probably a good part of the city would join in anyway. She may be allowed into the city, but that does not mean everyone is happy about that or cares about her well-being.
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What Ed said. There's a reason why those who are "accepted" often still choose to cover up.
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NO. NO NO NO a thousand times NO. With respect to Alantha, I really feel that that character should never be in Hempstead with exposed skin, unless she felt like inciting a riot. Because that is what would happen. I don't care how powerful or well-known a given Dark Elf is - Joe Commoner knows for a fact (and a well-informed fact, at that) that Dark Elves are EVIL. He doesn't care what it's name is, how shapely it may be, and so forth... It's a Dark Elf, and it's going to kill him and his family. He is going to run away, screaming - all the more, if he knows that that Dark Elf is so powerful, she's invented her own spells. This is PRECISELY why there are laws against monstrous races entering the city, for all that the city's governance knows that there may be one or two individuals who aren't blackhearted murderers who will eat your children and animate their bones.
No. I don't care how Epic Alantha (or any other well-known "goodie" Dark Elf) is, not a single one has truly proven him or herself "worthy" in the eyes of Joe Commoner - because Dark Elves are monsters.
Actually, that's not entirely true. Those dark elves who are allowed, and especially Alantha, have more than proven themselves, not only to the authorities of Port Hempstead but also just from day-to-day exposure. Their original allowance was due to years of fighting for the "good guys" during the war with Bloodstone. Undoubtedly there are stories and songs about Alantha and her deeds. All the children born in the last 30 or so years (and maybe longer) would probably have seen her around town daily, accepted by prominent people and think "Well, maybe she's not so bad."
It really has nothing to do with her epic-ness. It has to do with what she has done.
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Actually, that's not entirely true. Those dark elves who are allowed, and especially Alantha, have more than proven themselves, not only to the authorities of Port Hempstead but also just from day-to-day exposure. Their original allowance was due to years of fighting for the "good guys" during the war with Bloodstone. Undoubtedly there are stories and songs about Alantha and her deeds. All the children born in the last 30 or so years (and maybe longer) would probably have seen her around town daily, accepted by prominent people and think "Well, maybe she's not so bad."
It really has nothing to do with her epic-ness. It has to do with what she has done.
Well that goes back to what I said.. if you have been raised with hearing the stories of the good one dark elf did.. would it affect the way you may treat other ones you come across?
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This might not be the greatest example, but it's a little bit difficult to find these sort of real life extremes. :)
If your friend has a snake for pet and you are well aware of that it's all cuddly and nice, would that also make you go and hug a random snake found in the forest?
Unless one starts to see a much larger pattern, exceptions do tend to remain as exceptions in one's mind. More of a "I no longer see him/her as a dark elf" rather than "I no longer see dark elves as evil".
Do also remember that even the most "successful" good dark elves are on tops just accepted by the general population. Had their deeds been the same while their heritage were different... well... they would likely have ended up as the hero-magazine-front-page-boy/girl instead! ;)
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I guess it also depends on how some char were raised.
Taking the In'Darsus kids for example. Because Rain and Sonya had a few Dark elves friends (atcually traveled with, prooved themselves, saved Rain and Sonya's life a few times) they have taught their children to try and see the good in people first.
I imagine that in a world as big as Layo, this wouldn't be the only time this is done. Sure they would know that the vast majority of dark elves are evil, even more so if they didn't leave their own and are bent on attacking towns and such. But they would probably see differently those that did, and try to show they are different. At least until they prove the contrary.
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Well that goes back to what I said.. if you have been raised with hearing the stories of the good one dark elf did.. would it affect the way you may treat other ones you come across?
No, not necessarily. Not with just one. I can see a conversation like this happening between a father and his son (for example):
[INDENT] "Mind the dark elves, son. Their kind be trouble and lots of it. They'd kill ya for no reason and keep walkin'. Don' trust 'em, I say. Don' even go near 'em...or look at 'em. There's but one I knows of that's got even a speck of good in 'er. I don' trust her one bit, but leastways she ain' gonna stab ya in the back neither."
[/INDENT]
So tales of one dark elf being good and honored and all isn't going to way general opinion, especially when compared against the tales of massive assaults by dark elves and the like. Those stories would serve more as an "exception to the rule" than the start of a trend.
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"Epic-ness" was meant in the old-fashioned ECDQ way - epic in the traditional sense of the word, not having to do with level but with renown.
However, there is one thing. I'd place very good money that Joe Commoner could look at Alantha and some other pretty Dark Elf Woman, and have no idea which one was which... Until one of them tried to kill him.
In a city of thousands and thousands (maybe millions?), and a huge non-permanent population of sailors, merchants, and travelers, I have to wonder how, exactly (and we're just running with the pertinent example), Alantha's face would become known to most folks. The majority of the population can't read, can't afford newspapers, and the newspaper the world DOES have, doesn't have photographs. Skillful illustrations, perhaps, but mass-produced by hand?
How are these people going to have any way to recognize an individual they don't actively interact with on a regular basis?
Being a daily sight would be "There's one dark elf in this crowd" not "There's one Alantha in this crowd," unless she was literally treated like nobility.
If she is, awesome. Perhaps the playerbase should see more of that in RP and fluff, but okay. If not, though, I still have concerns for the points I've brought up.
Joe Commoner will look and see "Dark Elf." Heck, Joe Commoner probably looks at Karn or Jilesponie and sees "Elf."
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Taking the In'Darsus kids for example. Because Rain and Sonya had a few Dark elves friends (atcually traveled with, prooved themselves, saved Rain and Sonya's life a few times) they have taught their children to try and see the good in people first.
If they teach it like that, they are irresponsible in my opinion, as chances are far more likely that it is not a good one. But that is their choice, but they shouldn't be surprised their kid gets killed by a dark elf.
So, instead of repeating myself continuously, please be aware that this is not a debatable status of the world, this is fact:
Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.
Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good? In fact, most people are then inconsistent, because the moment they encounter a dark elf on a GM run quest, they will almost certainly not give that dark elf the benefit of the doubt. The red floaty text (if the GM forgot to set the faction to Common), or the mere fact the NPC is GM controlled, will very often lead to the right reaction: not trusting the dark elf NPC, not even as far as you can throw him/her.
Explain me that inconsistency then.
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It's probably due to the mechanical limitation of making sure that every playable dark elf must be slightly lawful or slightly good. Open up CE and I'll make ye a dark elf's dark elf... This is why everybody thinks they're CN-CG, or evil but with enough law to not go back on their word in a business deal.
Though the halfogre has it worse. MUST be CN or CG if Azattan, nothing else. You could drop off a baby halfogre on the steps of a Toranite church, raise him with the utmost discipline and training, and not a single word of law will stick in his mind. Conversely, you could beat him within an inch of his life every day, slaughter his parents in front of him, stone him, make him hate all humanity, and if he ever got angry and evil-like... he would run off into the woods never to be seen again because he can't be any kind of evil except for the impermissible kind. Not a single non-chaotic halfogre exists; Law is poison to them. Should they look both ways before crossing the street or salute a townguard their heads would explode into a messy pinata of goo and brain-noodles.
Now if only one could make an evil brownie... THAT would scare the bejeebus outta me! Using a needle as a rapier, snapping every vein and ligament along the way, crawling up and down some poor bloke's body. Their last vision before death would be Rool and Franjeen, plucking out their eyes. "Death to the Nelwyn!" :D
I understand why we don't allow CE though... PVP anxiety. But I might point out that it was a rule written prior to the PVP widget, and the recent attempts to make races more attuned to their natural alignment. The latter seems to suffer a bit when one disallows the natural alignment, and only allows one-step diversion from it. Until there are CE dark elf player characters allowed, everybody will always see a PC and think "oh, well at least he's obviously more lawful or good than his kin". That's just how it is.
And yes Ed, the red-aura is a funny thing. I remember when I would spawn a little child walking through the forest, switch his faction to red, and sit back laughing when he'd get blown up by a mage's fireball a screen away! "but but... it was an EVIL little boy!" And then another GM would put a huge arch-devil in the middle of Hlint, turned him blue and everybody but Praylor insisted on... talking... to it, and helping it in its quest. Remember folks, you cannot see intent from the game engine alone!
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Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good?
No they didn't raise them to view all of them as possible do-gooder. But more in the way that all should be able to have a chance. remember that when i started the Angels, that was the main part in it. To help all the people and bring hope, to give all adventurers the good they needed to survive at a fair price.
in no way would Rain and Sonya have raised their children to be stupid, but to have an open mind. Some of my chars are more open minded than others, but if you take Eslar, he's not and it was portraid as is in a quest ran by minerva. And yes, he was given the eyes by the people when he was fretting about iradril, when he learned he was a dark elf.
It depends on the mentality of my chars for me.
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An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
Also.
... Lets gather up these threads and sticky them neatly together, so Stephen doesn't have to go make a post for it every six months.... ;)
This is a great idea. :D
Yes, I'm joking. Laugh.
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Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good?
If you try to play without trusting the majority of the people who walk up to you and say hi, you're considered moody, broody, or otherwise dark as a character, so you have the pressure to be fluffy pleasant- Probably because we -know- that everyone is good or neutral aligned. There is the constant pressure to be nice to our fellow PCs because they are real people. This conflicts with roleplay.
On the other hand, from the player from those unaccepted races themselves: In character submissions, we post that we accept our status as the race we play and show that in our biographies, but when the person is treated as they should be in the game, you often hear complaints through Tells from them saying how mean people are.
So... Instead of acting suspicious, we're basically forced out of our own concern for our fellow players to give those dark elves the benefit of the doubt. . . Nevermind the fact it's completely OOC.
When the DM comes along, then, and spawns a nasty dark elf who we know can play CE and who we know won't be offended if we're mean... well, there you go.
I call it the OOC syndrome.
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But that's just it. We DON'T know that everyone is good or neutral aligned.
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I'd agree... but you know via submissions and you know via alignment rules. There's that OOC aspect right there for you.
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Yes, but once again, not everyone is good or neutral aligned. We do have evil pc's
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Another thing too, one cannot kill-on-sight anything other than a demon or undead and maintain a good alignment. If we do that on quests to the NPCs we meet, we get chaos and evil points. And nobody wants to be chaotic evil, because then they're unplayable. So it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you play a CN character and come across a talking dark elf, even if you have the right alignment to kill them, you can't, because there's that ever-looming threat that your character will be taken away if you act properly to how we urge you to act towards dark elves.
In a recent dispute, one dark elf player Iradril was given evil points for not showing a sad expression when a *chaotic eeeeevil dark elf npc who whipped Alantha multiple times and tried to stab her* died and he did not heal that *eeeevil evil dark evil elf* after Abigail rightfully stopped her via rapier to the heart. While we have been told again and again that kill-on-sight or chase-them-out-of-town is how we *should* react to dark elves, in practice, at least one player has gotten evil points simply for not feeling bad about an evil stereotypical OPENLY HOSTILE dark elf getting killed in self-defense... when he wasn't even the one who did it too! SO maybe the reason we don't treat dark elves with the proper fear and loathing is that because we penalize our players for it when they do.
In my opinion, leaving the dark elf to die on her own with a chance of stabilizing naturally like they did would be a good point. Finishing the job would be neutral. The only way you could get evil points in that situation would be if you snapped and cannibalized the body, cackling and smearing blood on your face like warpaint. That's what other dark elves would do.
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On the other hand, from the player from those unaccepted races themselves: In character submissions, we post that we accept our status as the race we play and show that in our biographies, but when the person is treated as they should be in the game, you often hear complaints through Tells from them saying how mean people are.
Eh you won't hear me complain about that. I actually am waiting for the people to be really entrenched against Fehriel, but for now the only time that has happened was with Balthazar, and I had a great time rping Feh vs Bal. What I don't like is what I posted before, metagaming based on his race. That can happen though and sometime you just got to let it slide when it's minor, but when it'S not that's when you have to speak out about it.
An other thing to be careful about, for clerics and paladins is the ''sense evilness from the pc'' If a Tiefling and a Aasimar can not feel their opposite, I am pretty sure that a cleric or paladin wouldn't feel the evilness out of a single person. Their prayer might guide them to know that they do not follow a god that is well seen from their own god, but unless I am mistaken, they wouldn't sense the evilness out of a pc (that is subjective to a GM being present and sking for them to make a roll for it, there for left at the discretion of the gm). Cause well if they do, then i can actually see a war breweing within the rofirienite clergy where the settigns are from LG to LE. Which of course would be quite fun to watch.
Which Also brings up the question. Why would a rofi juge rule that an Evil race should be put to death or even emprisoned, when their own god allows evil aligned character to be Clerics? Wouldn't that come into conflict with their own beliefs? If he doesn't break the law (which I must say for Sion I am unsure of what trully happened in the first place) then why would they even get involved based on the person being evil or from a race that is considered evil for their ways, or because by the very blood they carry?
at least one player has gotten evil points simply for not feeling bad about an evil stereotypical dark elf getting killed in self-defense... when he wasn't even the one who did it too! SO maybe the reason we don't treat dark elves with the proper fear and loathing is that because we penalize our players for it when they do.
the whole party but abigail and Jilesponie got the neutral point.
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And at least one person has taken something out of context and exaggerated the said act too. Have we not been taught that standing by and laughing at the misfortunes of a slowly dying man is not really an act of good? So maybe the reason of whether someone will be "punished" for it or not does not lay in whether he or she is actually killing dark elves. For else, surely all high level characters must have turned to a chaotic evil alignment already?
Oh... make it two people, by the way!
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I got what I needed... can we lock the thread? Is that allowed to be requested?
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Mmm... off note, dark elves are usually NE than CE. They do have to work together to some extent, after all.
Not at all. Dark elves breed chaos. They are far more CE.
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I got what I needed... can we lock the thread? Is that allowed to be requested?
Seconded. At least one person has requested this, and now make it two.
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Yes, but once you've been burned by a dark elf, any time you see somoene of elven build covered completely from head to toe... there's all the suspicion you need. Generally elves don't do that.
There is a point though that seems to always be missed. Dark elves on the surface are so rare that people should never think "oh look maybe that is a Dark elf".
It is like when I go to my friends house at the Tangelo Trailer Park Hood and he has a painting on the wall. The VERY last thing I think to ask him is, "hey is that a Picasso?". Why? Because the chances of it being one are near impossible. You do not see Picasso paintings hanging on the walls of trailers. You do not see dark elves on the surface. You do not see bats flying around during the day. I don't walk around thinking I am going to find, or even looking for a million dollars hanging from trees. I suppose bag of money could always fall out of a plane and land in the tree in my back yard...
Now the flip side to this is if the DMs start running quests with dark elves raiding the surface at certain areas. That could cause some caution and the locals on the look out for a period of time.
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Actually, that's not entirely true. Those dark elves who are allowed, and especially Alantha, have more than proven themselves, not only to the authorities of Port Hempstead but also just from day-to-day exposure. Their original allowance was due to years of fighting for the "good guys" during the war with Bloodstone. Undoubtedly there are stories and songs about Alantha and her deeds. All the children born in the last 30 or so years (and maybe longer) would probably have seen her around town daily, accepted by prominent people and think "Well, maybe she's not so bad."
It really has nothing to do with her epic-ness. It has to do with what she has done.
What bothers me about this, is no matter how many lives Drizzt saved or how many good deeds he did, he was never accepted by anyone other than his friends. He didn't walk into large cities and towns open as a dark elf, because they would riot and try to kill him and his friends.
A demon shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of a city...and there if there is one thing even a demon fears, it is a dark elf priest.
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No, not necessarily. Not with just one. I can see a conversation like this happening between a father and his son (for example):
[INDENT] "Mind the dark elves, son. Their kind be trouble and lots of it. They'd kill ya for no reason and keep walkin'. Don' trust 'em, I say. Don' even go near 'em...or look at 'em. There's but one I knows of that's got even a speck of good in 'er. I don' trust her one bit, but leastways she ain' gonna stab ya in the back neither."
[/INDENT]
So tales of one dark elf being good and honored and all isn't going to way general opinion, especially when compared against the tales of massive assaults by dark elves and the like. Those stories would serve more as an "exception to the rule" than the start of a trend.
I would add the son saying, "but dad, I can't tell one from the other, they all look alike to me with their dark skin, the scary red eyes...How do I know which one is this good one?"
Then the dad would say "good point son, that is why we don't risk the chance with the one good one. It is better to be safe and treat them all the same. Son if you don't know which snakes are the poisons ones and which aren't, it is better to just stay clear of all of them."
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Wow, Iradril was a Dark Elf? Kudos to him, I didn't know that :p See, the plot will be better if people slowed down on the spot checks. It's boring if everyone immediately knows you're a Dark Elf and then they get their torches and pitch forks. The fact of the matter is, slow down with the spot checks, allow the pc to show his/her true nature and if you get suspicious of his/her actions, knock yourself out. Right?
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What bothers me about this, is no matter how many lives Drizzt saved or how many good deeds he did, he was never accepted by anyone other than his friends. He didn't walk into large cities and towns open as a dark elf, because they would riot and try to kill him and his friends.
A demon shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of a city...and there if there is one thing even a demon fears, it is a dark elf priest.
Drizzt never had a city (i.e. those in authority) proclaim him as "a good fellow".
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I would add the son saying, "but dad, I can't tell one from the other, they all look alike to me with their dark skin, the scary red eyes...How do I know which one is this good one?"
Then the dad would say "good point son, that is why we don't risk the chance with the one good one. It is better to be safe and treat them all the same. Son if you don't know which snakes are the poisons ones and which aren't, it is better to just stay clear of all of them."
You've actually proved my point, which was stories about one good dark elf does not start a trend of holding hands with every dark elf people see. :)
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Ok fine, I will put my two cents in.
This is really easy, and people are complicating it.
Dark Elves are evil. If you are weak, flee evil. If you are strong kill evil.
"What about good Dark Elves?" There are none. Dark Elves are evil.
"What about Alantha and Irdaril?" They are Alantha and Iradril. They still cause evil things to occure. Their presence causes confusion, fear and hostility in town. Lord Rael uses them for propaganda. Hempstead has merely decreed there past heroic actions to outway the troubles their presence now causes. Even these heroic dark elves cause chaos, and allow evil to spread. It is their fault? Most likely not (unless they choose to unveil themselves without regards to the effects it has) but because of their race and that alone they still cause such effects. And they are the exceptions. They are in no way representative of Dark Elves.
"What about the neutral and and lesser known Dark Elves?" They are evil. There is no one to stick up for them, they have done no Heoric deeds of legend. Therefore they have all of the draw back without any of the saving graces. Therefore the scales are set against them, period. They have to prove themselves 1000 times over to be as accepted as a human. That is life. That is Xenophonbia. That is the Dark Elves history. That is what is means to be or play a Dark Elf.
Ask a Japanese American what it felt like to be put in a camp during World War II. Ask one that was fighting in the European theater for the Allies while their family was locked away in a camp in the US. When that "Hero" came back from the war, ask him if he was accepted in his own nation. Heck ask a Middle Eastern decent American who fought for his country if he was accepted in the last half dozen years. Or if he was detained in the airports, treated with suspicion and worse based soley on his skin color.
Now take that and mulitply that by *shrugs* 1000? for dark Elves? They are monsters, not people with differant skin color. The stories of them are things of nightmares. Add to that that Layonorians do not see Dark Elves while Americans do see Middle Eastern desent people. Now add that Dark Elves are evil, they live to torment and kill. While humans, all races are good people and non hostile. Only a minority is evil, cruel, or war like. This is juxtaposed with Dark Elves. If one in a 100,000 can make a nation hostile, unaccepting or suspicious of a race imagine what happens when the race only has one in a million that is good or just.
Adventuers are Adventuers. They are the exceptions to every rule. They break all conformities. They do not represent the mass of people even in a fantasy world. They are the Ghandi's, Churchills, Hitlers, and so forth. Because they have a vision to see a world of the future or a world apart from how it is in fact, does not mean the rest do. It is always easier to follow than think.
So in summary, Dark Elves are evil. All Dark Elves cause problems. Anyone playing a Dark Elf or other monsterous race ackowledged these truths. They choose to take on a role that requires more effort to reach the same goals. So role play your character. If you want to think a Lich is misunderstood and you can save his soul, your a PC go for it. But be consistent. Don't try to save a Lich's soul because it 'talked' and then butcher the next goblin child you see because its 'evil.' But by the same token live with the repercusions. If the 'good' people of the world find you consorting with a Lich do not whine or be shocked when you are branded, thrown in jail and exiled or killed. The world does not share your PC's view that Liches can or should be reformed. Why? Because they are evil.
~some guy
PS: ok it was 50 cents, but keep the change =)
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Why would a rofi juge rule that an Evil race should be put to death or even emprisoned, when their own god allows evil aligned character to be Clerics?
They wouldn't do that. Judges rule on the law. If the courts in some place are operated by Rofireinites and the laws of that place severely restrict a certain race and prescribe death for those offenses, then the judge has a good chance of sentencing death to a member of that race for breaking that law if the offender was tried and found guilty. Rofireinite judges don't just decide willy-nilly that members of Evilly aligned races should be killed, period.
Wouldn't that come into conflict with their own beliefs?
It would if that's what they did, which they don't, so it doesn't. Also, Good and Evil are not mainstream Church of Rofirein alignments, so while Good and Evil characters can be part of the Church, even reaching high ranks, their views aren't necessarily in accordance with the "typical" beliefs of the "typical" member.
If he doesn't break the law (which I must say for Sion I am unsure of what trully happened in the first place) then why would they even get involved based on the person being evil or from a race that is considered evil for their ways, or because by the very blood they carry?
The bold part seems important. Besides that, Rofireinites believe in order, which just laws are meant to help maintain. They also believe in protecting people. Laws are often all about that protection - don't kill or hurt anyone and don't damage or take their things or otherwise ruin their well-being and opportunity for prosperity. Sometimes, it's best to be proactive and try to become involved before any law is broken in order to better protect everyone. If a race is far and away known for evil acts and sowing chaos, as is true and factual about dark elves, it would not be uncommon to see Rofireinites become involved and intervene if it seemed necessary to protect others.
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Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good?
Basically because, as children at kindergarten, we were all (mostly) taught to play nice in the sand pit.
No-one wants to be ostracized, and yet, this is probably the way dark-elves and other monstrous races should be treated. But we don't do this because we know there is a player on the other side of that character who wants to have fun, and the best way to have fun is to be included, so we include them.
And they want to be included, in spite of their character race choice.
Even after they are outed, we don't want to ostracize them (let alone burn them at the stake for the baby-eating murderers that they are), so we look for an excuse to keep including them, any excuse. Knowing the Drizz't storyline well, that is all the excuse that is required.
In my opinion, to play dark-elves properly and in accordance with their history, both by their player and the players they interact with, dark-elves are really unplayable, at least in the mid to long term. The number of the exceptions that have to be made to keep including them eventually collapses under its own weight.
The potential Sion outcome of being locked up forever is a natural resolution to a dark-elf character storyline, and yet people are complaining about someone being denied their character, which they would have been and is a harsh thing to have happen. And yet more exceptions would now have to be made to keep including them.
And if you're not being included, how can you play your character?
In fact, most people are then inconsistent, because the moment they encounter a dark elf on a GM run quest, they will almost certainly not give that dark elf the benefit of the doubt.The red floaty text (if the GM forgot to set the faction to Common), or the mere fact the NPC is GM controlled, will very often lead to the right reaction: not trusting the dark elf NPC, not even as far as you can throw him/her.
Explain me that inconsistency then.
The "dark elf on a GM run quest" is an NPC. :p
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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Besides that, Rofireinites believe in order, which just laws are meant to help maintain.
All laws are about maintaining order, but not all order is "just". ;)
They also believe in protecting people. Laws are often all about that protection - don't kill or hurt anyone and don't damage or take their things or otherwise ruin their well-being and opportunity for prosperity.
Aren't these "good" sentiments?
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
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it's best to be proactive and try to become involved before any law is broken in order to better protect everyone.
IN that case, by that statement all Chaotic and tn char should be in jail ;)
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All laws are about maintaining order, but not all order is "just".
Right. There is a notion that Rofireinites should be and/or are constantly striving for a more just set of laws everywhere, since justice is a big part of the faith, too, but that's a topic for a different thread.
Aren't these "good" sentiments?
Tell it to Ed. I've already tried.
IN that case, by that statement all Chaotic and tn char should be in jail
You cut off the "sometimes" and you're over-simplifying alignment, but that's a topic for a different thread, too.
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Nah I was just making a little friendly jab there.
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What bothers me about this, is no matter how many lives Drizzt saved or how many good deeds he did, he was never accepted by anyone other than his friends. He didn't walk into large cities and towns open as a dark elf, because they would riot and try to kill him and his friends.
A demon shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of a city...and there if there is one thing even a demon fears, it is a dark elf priest.
Not in any way related to my view on Layonara dark elfs, but
in the later books Drizzt's walk openly in number of large cities (Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Silverymoon) due to his actions. :)
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If they teach it like that, they are irresponsible in my opinion, as chances are far more likely that it is not a good one. But that is their choice, but they shouldn't be surprised their kid gets killed by a dark elf.
So, instead of repeating myself continuously, please be aware that this is not a debatable status of the world, this is fact:
Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.
QUOTE]
Thank you Ed, however please do continue repeating yourself as this cant be stated enough times.
The rest is my opinion, but it shouldnt be surprising as any of you know how Galathea views and interacts with dark elves.
First rant: Dark elves
there are no helpless darkelves there are only failures; and that you dont need a reason to kill a dark elf, you need a reason not to.
If you think this is too harsh and automatically make me evil please consider the following:
For every "good" dark elf on the surface there would be far more spies, agents and sleepers. In fact most "good" darkelves would be sleepers. Asking a darkelf to kill another darkelf to prove his loyalty dont really work because they wouldnt give two cents for anothers life.
Ask how forgiving people where to Germans after the second world war or towards Japanese. Then multiply said feelings by a hundred you should have some estimation of what people should feel towards dark elves.
Would you let a serial murderer/rapist/child molester on the loose just because he said "I am changed"? or because he lost his weapon?
Remember the rituals they pass through when becoming adults? An adult dark elf who worships their gods isnt nice, isnt going to change and makes any human racist we have encountered appear as dr. King.
Divine relation doesnt say if the player is good or evil, only how your deity feels about the deity said person worships. But for some us it happens that "enemy deities" ARE evil (with one exception of CN). If I encounter a dark elf and said dark elf worships an evil god, I consider it safe to assume its an evil dark elf. Its might not be a 100% true, but unless we metagame the odds would be 99.99% of it being true. Thats good enough for me.
If it was solely up to me dark elves wouldnt be a playable race. Not because our players cant handle them playing them, but because it partially ruins their mystique and makes them appear less terrifying, less evil.
This is a familiy server, which I much appreciate, it limits what GMs and players can do when it comes to portraying dark elves. BUT, it doesnt mean that we players should remember dark elves actually do and are. Last act according to it.
Second rant: morality
Layonara has been thorugh a devasting war, invasions, a "nuclear winter" is threathened by dragons, undead, dark elves, goblinoids and each other. Its not our safe and orderly world. Its not even our world 300 years ago.
Much of our modern liberal morality and attitudes arise from the simple fact that we havent faced the same kind of hardship and tough choises are earlier AND even those wouldnt always compare to what layonarans have gone through.
Being good doesn't mean you cant make tought choises, act decisively or even appear harsh or unforgiving. I am not arguing paladins can go around murdering babies, but being tough and even brutal does not automatically make it an evil act. Inaction or letting an evil go because it appears harmless or helpless at the moment isnt a good act. In most cases its simply an act where we havent considered the later consequences of it.
If they teach it like that, they are irresponsible in my opinion, as chances are far more likely that it is not a good one. But that is their choice, but they shouldn't be surprised their kid gets killed by a dark elf.[/I] QUOTE]
Ed puts it better in his example, but it can summed up as this. Being good doesnt mean you have to be naive or gullible.
End rant
;)
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... exceptions do tend to remain as exceptions in one's mind. More of a "I no longer see him/her as a dark elf" rather than "I no longer see dark elves as evil"...
Dead on!
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You've actually proved my point, which was stories about one good dark elf does not start a trend of holding hands with every dark elf people see. :)
You and I have always been on that same page Dorg =)
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on the off point, like I said, do what you need to do with My PC. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, thus, I was prepared. :) anyhow...
*Plods off to grabs a fire suit, water hose, and a couple wet blankets and heads out to quell the fiery thread*
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An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
you know, I think Minerva has a quote about this... heh.
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Apologies for bringing up an old topic, but I think things are turned around a bit. The one person that tries to call out the dark elf is now the 'bad guy' and the 'trouble maker'. Everyone wants to be friends with a dark elf or "give them a chance". She has ran with one until someone announces his name. Then she has to say something. She is not one to hold back. Then she gets, "Do we have to do this now?" or "He is fine." or even "Can we all just get along?" Emry ends up leaving the party because everyone defends the dark elf.
Who has become the outsider now?
I think a lot of the ownerships falls upon the dark elf player and not necessarily the other players. S/he knows at character submission it will not be easy to get into a party.
I have to give Ni'haer/Gelooo so kudos. When he is threatened or called out, he leaves when he is casted out. However, and I agree, if the party accepts and defends him once he is uncovered, he should stay.
And what's funny, an hour later, everyone is back together again like nothing has happened.
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*grumbles about how he never got away with that... and something about having 30 different costumes at one time*
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I think that when dealing with dark elves, they should not be afraid of us. We should be AFRAID of them. A dark elf is on the surface. The first kind of dark elf you find as an NPC hunting is 16+lvl. They are terror. They are horror. they will take your level 1-10 character aside, one-on-one, and rip them apart and eat their entrials. Storm of Vengeance. Finger od death. Spell resistance. baby eating. Level 15-20? You could take one, more than three? come on, I see you lure them in the caves! So this entire thing about people running up and suddenly having +50 morale checks in telling them to leave parties or areas... is kind of metagaming. We KNOW we can take them. Floaty text syndrome!. But realistically... if you see a dark elf on the surface, shouldn't you flee?
Funny, how people pester and try to arrest PC dark elves. And then when milara or an NPC dark elf of any type comes along with an impossible over their head, then we suddenly do quests for them. I'm just saying...
If we persecute them because they are to be feared, then if there is no fear of them, what's the point? "oh but I am such a wreck-butt adventurer, I have fought 10,000 giants, I will kill them ALL on sight..." When I see somebody who really couldn't survive a trip with Bjorn to hunt dark elves while *using him as cover* suddenly growing will saves of +20 when a PC dark elf is about, I start to wonder. if you're not Argali or Bjorn or a group of 15+ers or better, then what the heck are you doing running around pointing "he's a dark elf! oooh, nasty dark elf! boogie boogie?" No... you should RUN. Unless you have a very low wisdom or intelligence score, and TYPICALLY charge in and try to attack foes way over your head. battlerager vs. dark elf of any level? Godspeed, vorax be with you, CHARGE! most other folks? Flee to the town guard and rally THE TOWN. if the reason you are thwarting them is that they are deadly as sin, the bane of all life, and worlds crumble beneath their wrath... then at least roll with the pretext!
*salutes Emry who did just that. Run to the townguard!* :D
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if you're not Argali or Bjorn or a group of 15+ers or better, then what the heck are you doing running around pointing "he's a dark elf! oooh, nasty dark elf! boogie boogie?" No... you should RUN.
Truth.
Well, unless you want to bow down and ask that the dark elf make you its slave. :p That's always an option.
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All i have to say is grenna hates all dark elves adn will attack them on sight. Whether she can beat them or not...she will do everything she can to hunt and kill them.
She attacked alantha once (lvl 20 +) at the time when she was only lvl 3. And if you want to see her go off just mention the words dark elf to her adn adn youll see what happens! :D
At least, when i get done moving nad get a new internet connection an stuff.
Nothing like arager witha grudge for some fun and exciting entertainment!
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remind me to stay FAAAAAR,far, far away when logged on as Sion.... O.o