The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Eyvind on January 11, 2009, 01:11:10 PM
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I wrote this background story (some parts omitted) for a Lawful Neutral Half-Giant Monk before I came to know that it was forbidden. At this point I would like to know if this story is true to the lore of Layonara, and if my rationale for a Lawful Neutral alignment (not necessarily Monk, mind you, I omitted those parts from the story) at the end.
(Also not exactly sure if this is the right place to post, but I'm reasonably certain it's close enough.)
I don't want to hear that the only reasons are (1) that Half-Giant Monks are overpowered and (2) it would be tedious to make technically possible. I understand these two reasons and I am not arguing or looking for reasons for this to be allowed. I want to know what the lore reasons for not allowing it are.
I appreciate your time and apologize for any defensiveness this might unintentially invoke.
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A darker than normal day in Apreal of 1418 and a giantess approached a farmstead on the outskirts of the Gloom Woods. The lit windows and the dark forest behind it made for an isolated but cozy appearance, something the giant cared little for. She tromped on across the field.
Well at the house, she leaned down and looked through one of the lit windows. Inside she saw a man, a woman, and a young girl eating a meager meal at a small table. The girl sat across from the window, consequently she saw the giant first and froze, eyes wide, mid-chew. Several seconds passed before the mother noticed her daughter's rigid attitude, she glanced out the window and seeing nothing unusual she sighed and began an absent-minded drone of reassurances. The father hardly reacted until he heard the loud crash and splintering that effectively interrupted the drone of his wife, putting her in the frozen state quite similar to that of her daughter, who in turn fell out of her chair in terror. The father -- Jack was his name -- stood up, grabbed the hatchet that had fallen from the wall, and began moving toward the sound of a giant trying to fit through a human door.
Jack approached the door and was promptly helped through it by the arm that stretched in after him. The woman and girl could do little but watch from the window as their husband and father was dragged off in the direction of the Brech Mountains. What happened to them is a bit uncertain. After a corner of the house caved in, it is likely they moved to one of the small towns nearby, or perhaps Fort Vehl.
It would, however, be a good guess that they survived since shortly after the incident at the farmstead, a small the community of giants on the outskirts of the Ulgrid Kingdom was attacked by a reasonably wrathful -- but short-lived -- mob. Incidentally, this community is where Gora -- the giantess -- had dragged Jack.
To explain the reasoning behind Gora's actions would be futile, and to explain Jack's attitude toward the whole ordeal would be equally so, for he -- and this is no lie -- welcomed the change in scenery. Granted, it took a few days, but he came to enjoy spending each day taking care not to be crushed, taking care not to be ripped apart, taking care not to be eaten, and not having to plant plants, wait for plants to grow, harvest plants, prepare for more planting of plants, plant plants, wait, and so on.
A year later John -- whom everyone but Jack called something else, sounded something like Hug -- was born to Gora, details omitted. By this time Jack had become an honorary giant and was allowed to roam essentially wherever he wanted to roam. As John grew up, Jack took him on walks about the foothills, along the Taro River, and occasionally farther. They developed a tight bond, at least as tight as any normal father-son relationship, and the recollections of his former life faded from Jack's mind.
In 1439, shortly after John's tenth birthday in Apreal, the giants once again came under fierce attack. The giants held their ground for several days but as there seemed to be no end to the attacks, they began grumbling and hastily sought a scapegoat. The most natural and easiest choice would have been Jack. John assumed as much, and was prepared to defend his father from the other giants. A group of them came but they were in fact seeking John, not Jack, so when John stood ready to face them they shrugged and grabbed him. They took the struggling John to the Tora and threw him in. Uncertain what happened to Jack, or the rest of the giants for that matter.
John's fate was more certain, at least for the time being. He was swept downstream to the sea and was thereafter washed far into it. If chance had had her say, he would have died too, but a couple of fishermen netted the half-dead half-giant and essentially saved him. They took him to their shack a few miles west of Fort Vehl which they threw him into after tying his hands and feet.
The shack was cluttered with fishing paraphernalia. There were also quite a number of fish about, some rotting on the ground, some drying on a stand. All things considered, there was little open ground left for John to fall onto as he was thrown in, and as it turns out he missed the little there was. He hit his head on something hard and unyielding, and was unconscious for the better part of the night. He then slept off his daze, shock, and confusion through the following day. The fishermen came back that evening and jostled him out of the shack only to dump him in a freshly-dug pit some ways inland. They said nothing, they didn't even chortle. They waited just long enough to make sure they hadn't broken John's neck, then they left.
The next day, John had regained a considerable portion of his aggressiveness and loudly challenged the fishermen. When they didn't respond, he challenged them in giant as well, just to be on the safe side. The second day in the pit there was cause for celebration: John had managed to free his hands and it also rained. It didn't quite sate his thirst, but it sufficed. Days passed -- a few of which brought more rain -- with no sight of the fishermen. Some more days passed -- the rain was becoming a nuisance -- and finally the fishermen came and though an explanation would have been nice, they did bring some food. The quite small hunk of meat, and more like it over the coming years, was enough to keep John alive, but little more.
As alluded, John was kept in the pit for many years. During these years he was kept as barely alive as the mysterious fishermen decided. John's aggressive behavior waxed and waned and as the first few years passed, though the bouts of aggression grew further and further apart. By the end of two years, he had regressed into a quiet loathing of the fishermen he saw so little of. He alternated between sitting in the middle of his pit and pacing around it. Though his mental capabilities were not particularly sharp, he could on an abstract level ponder his predicament and eventual fate.
As he grew older, he realized the futility of struggling, that doing so would only diminish him more than his meager sustenance already was. He learned to sit still -- consciously -- for longer periods of time, at first not more than several minutes but as his seemingly endless time in the pit came and went, he learned to control his impatience and restlessness and took the first step to developing a significant patience.
Of course, it was not a completely smooth and sober experience. He did occasionally convulse mentally and scream some obscenities in Giant, he would hammer at the earthen walls with his hands and head, take jumps for the surface, and fall back down to the cold and uneven ground. He would compose himself and often fall asleep from the exertions and malnutrition. He would wake up, regretting his outburst with an aching stomach and intense hunger. Each time he told himself that it was unnecessary to intensify his suffering with uncontrolled behavior -- perhaps not in so many words, but it was a concept that made much sense to him.
He turned 18 in Apreal of 1437. By this time he had lost all track of time. He had all but mastered a level of self-control all but nonexistent among giants and even most humans. He was, however, growing weary of his eternal existence within those earthen confines. He began contemplating methods of escape. He was no great thinker, however, despite countless hours pensively spent. Nevertheless, he did get ideas. One he was particularly proud of involved making a rope out of his ragged and threadbare clothes, which hadn't been much to begin with. He eventually managed to create a decent rope, and grinning with joy he realized it would be of no use to him. He tried throwing it up above the edge of the pit, but there was no chance of it getting stuck on anything that could bear his weight. Ideas such as this occupied him for quite some time. In his 21st year, while executing yet another futile plan, he realize that the edge of the pit was now just within reach. It seemed the fishermen had not been Promethean enough to accommodate the pit for the growth of a young half-giant -- and perhaps erosion.
John began jumping to get a good grip on the worn edge of the pit. He did manage a number of times, but he was simply too fatigued to pull himself out. To make a drawn-out story shorter by a few sentences, he did manage eventually. It was a calm night, the stars were peeking out from behind nothingness, and various insects were making various insect-like noises. He looked around and came to the conclusion that he was utterly lost. He sat down to catch his breath for a moment.
After a moment he stood up, he felt a slight breeze and decided to follow it. He came upon a well-traveled road and followed it in an arbitrary direction. Eventually he saw what he soon found out was Fort Vehl. John now, for the first time since coming of age, had reason to use his name. He didn't think too much on the matter, and began introducing himself as Hugg, his Giant name. This and similar realizations forced upon him by the world took him by surprise. His life picked up in pace considerably, and it tested his self-control in ways he had never before encountered. He found work in Vehl, doing menial tasks that his employer thought fitting for a half-giant. Through this work he soon regained his natural strength and stamina and had enough True to buy himself his first decent meal in an eternity. This marked, to him, a rebirth into the world. He was now his own giant-man.
This is where we find Hugg today.
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Alignment rationale:
Due to being utterly isolated for nearly half of his current lifespan (between ages 10 and 21) -- the portion of his life during which he is most likely to have developed his own attitudes and principles -- he has no preconcieved notions of how communities should operate.
During his time of isolation, he developed a number of personal principles essentially to keep him sane and alive. Keeping his life along these principles for so long would make them quite ingrained and he would nary consider disregarding them as soon as his isolation is terminated. These principles are, fundamentally what make Monks Lawful.
His low intelligence (9, see below) keeps him from developing complex artificial ideas of his own, as would be necessary to challenge existing laws, regulations, and such.
With these three factors in mind, I feel a Lawful alignment is appropriate.
The Neutral part is also, I feel the only possible for him to adhere to his personal principles. His imprisonment and consequential isolation are what made him develop strong personal principles, in fact it is what made him as a whole. If he sees this cruelty as morally wrong, he would be belittling himself and his principles. If he sees it as morally right, well, I can't make an Evil character yet even if I wanted to.
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Well, the lore reason for no lawful giants is that while we say half-giant, the actual subrace is specifically half hill giant, and hill giants are non-lawful.
As far as the things that you don't want to hear about, 1. you probably will hear about, and 2. so far as I know is not an issue.
I feel your pain, I would love to play a lawful evil grannochian priest, and I know that the issue has been/is being considered by the powers that be, but I honestly doubt that it will be allowed.
Now, while I am not a CA, my guess is that they would tell you that the story itself doesn't really provide evidence of any particular alignment, and that you could certainly add some details to make this submission TN, CN, or NE... you could always just play an unarmed fighter who calls himself a monk, if you have your heart set on the concept.
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2. so far as I know is not an issue.
Ortho tells me it is.
Well, the lore reason for no lawful giants is that while we say half-giant, the actual subrace is specifically half hill giant, and hill giants are non-lawful.
But why, or in what way?
you could always
It's not about this character anymore, consider it strictly an alignment question.
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For a few of those races, the alignment restrictions are for initial submissions. Half-Giants must be non-lawful. Half-ogres must always be chaotic neutral... pffft. I really dont agree with that, but hey. However, this only stands for their alignment when you first create them. You may shift your alignment after the initial submission if you keep a detailed character development journal and RP that path for him with players in game. Take notes of what happened, take screenshots, resubmit the character once you have about 2 months of both saved up, and it might get approved.
So making a TN or NE half giant should be possible, then shifting him to lawful. The only race that I'm aware of that you cannot absolutely ever shift from their natural alignment are brownies, who can NEVER be chaotic, despite their being chaotic good in both the dungeon master's guide and Willow. We just have different kinds of layo-specific brownies to whom crime is poison. All of the other races though, you can start off at the alingments that are allowed, and then shift their alignment via roleplay and keeping a character development thread.
Usually this process takes around 2 months of journals and RP real-time. Make at least an entry a week talking about how you're learning law, the people that you've met, try to find some reputable characters like paladins and non-Farroses to group with, RP with them and have them add to your journal that they have been training you in the arts of law. I think it's a paladin's duty to help redeem somebody towards law as much as good, and we have quite a few lower level ones on now, so the chances are pretty good that this would be a good time to turn lawful.
As for *why* the alignment rules are so strict in the first place? Because four years ago we'd log in and 80% of the server populace were Good dark elves. You would come into town, ask "what are these dark elves doing here?" and suddenly the humans elves and dwarves would all be outnumbered by hippie dark elves who told them that they just wanted to be friends, and practically none of those dark elves were even Azattan. It was like if the Nahzgul came to Bree looking for Frodo, found him kicking and screaming under the bed, and gave him a key lime pie.
So these rules are in place so that for the most part, the races seem to fit the stereotypes of them. On the down side, this totally negates the debate of nature vs nurture, so when a half-ogre or a half-giant orphan is dropped off at a monastary's gates at the age of birth, no matter how rigorous the training or how patient the monks are teaching him, the giantkin will never be lawful at 1st level. I personally dont agree with that, but I understand why its in place. This restriction doesn't apply AFTER the submission though... so Tog the giantkin might have been raised by monks to be true neutral, but the lessons he learns later in life while your actually playing the character lead towards him achieving that goal of lawfulness. The same applies for neutral necromancers who want to go evil, chaotic goblins going lawful, or any of the monstrous races shifting good who aren't already Azattan. Best advice I can give is stick with the process and keep writing. If the process seems to have halted, just start asking questions of the team as to what they would like to see, and what specifically they have issue with, and then just keep revising and updating and requesting a re-review. Submission war of attrition, heheh.
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For a few of those races, the alignment restrictions are for initial submissions.
There are separate restrictions for submission and subsequent changes...
All monstrous races (which includes half giants) must START as TN, CN, NE, or LE. (with the exception of cleric's of Azatta)
Half giants have the additional restriction that they cannot BE lawful. (see [lore]half giant[/lore])
You could start as TN and then move to NG through roleplay, even though NG would not be an allowed starting alignment.
You could not start as TN and move to LN, since that whole rebel thing is in their blood or something.
Some races, such as tielflings or half ogres, have even more stringent alignment requirements...
Like Lon, I personally disagree (and am still holding out for lawful grannochians), but seeing how TN seems to be the favorite alignment as it is, I can see why its in place. And its better than just having an outright ban on subraces.
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*The Beatles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0)starts to play in the background as hippie dark elves gather with lawful giants*
// Opps... John Lennon starts singing in the back ground..... I forgot this wasn't a "Beatles" song.....
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If we're referencing DnD lore for alignment justifications, I would suggest looking up Tanar'ri (demons). They are strictly in the chaotic line because of their very nature from their spawned environment, and regardless of how they were raised, they have a natural urge to act chaotic... it's in their blood. The Baatezu bloodline, the devils, are the exact opposite in that they HAVE to be lawful.
Granted, I think the lower planes would not allow good alignments, but that's straying from my point.
Basically, I think half giants can't be lawful because it is within their blood and their limited intelligence to not be able to comprehend or fit into the law based system... Maybe you can Rp it to neutral where they can coincide with it, but I can't see it being able to be justified to actual lawfulness. I think that's what the team had in mind when creating that subrace... and something along those lines when they put the restrictions for the rest.
Just a guess.
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Remember that eventually these half races will be phased out, part of the reason the team made the crossing of different races impossible a while back. So essentially, it's eventually not even going to be an option to be a half elf/ half giant/ half anything
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*crosses his fingers for a full something-monstrous in the MMORPG. Definitely goblins....*
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i think Goblins, Orcs, and Ogres will be safe, Lonn...
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wonder if trolls will ever pop up..... and it would be cool to see a pixie... High Dex, and super low Con... like -6 to CON and STR, and +6 or 7 to Dex, maybe +2 to cha.... an affinity for Enchantments, as gnomes are to illusions?
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Short Answer, Link? No. Trolls and Pixies have bonuses and abilities that do not balance with any of the other races.
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Thank you all for giving your input on this. Still not quite satisfied, and though I might never be, I'd still like to push this some more.
Basically, I think half giants can't be lawful because it is within their blood and their limited intelligence to not be able to comprehend or fit into the law based system... Maybe you can Rp it to neutral where they can coincide with it, but I can't see it being able to be justified to actual lawfulness. I think that's what the team had in mind when creating that subrace... and something along those lines when they put the restrictions for the rest.
I can't simply accept this "because it's in their blood" explanation for such restrictions. It would be fine reasoning to explain why most half-giants are chaotic, or why there are very few lawful half-giants. It does not validate utterly preventing a half-giant from being lawful, though. People go against their "blood" all the time, consciously and not.
The low intelligence isn't a good explanation either. There are plenty of people with lower cognitive ability that have as strong principles and are as law-abiding as any people with higher intelligence. In fact, from my experience it's the people who are less Lawful that come off as more intelligent (though that might simply be coinciding beliefs).
From what I read here and from the IRC discussion yesterday, I haven't really gotten a particularly definitive answer. I have even been given a few quite contradictory answers.
It is starting to look like no one truly knows why Half Giants cannot be Lawful.
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No. Trolls and Pixies have bonuses and abilities that do not balance with any of the other races.
Keep in mind that Layo is moving away from DnD... no reason why trolls can't become something fairly mundane, or why pixies couldn't be a player race similar to brownies.
Thank you all for giving your input on this. Still not quite satisfied, and though I might never be...
To be blunt, you probably won't ever be satisfied; it sounds as though you've made up your mind that it shouldn't be the way it is... it's an understandable position, but it might be best just to take a deep breath and remember that its a game, and we don't make the rules. *cough* Although I'd still like to see lawful allowed for clerics of Grannoch *cough*
Do try and keep in mind that this is a fantasy universe, and there's no real reason why any particular behavior, whether it's alignment, Meyers-Briggs type, or anything else couldn't be purely genetic.
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I thought it was bioware hardcoded that half-giants had to be non-lawful (in addition to whatever other reason someone more learned than me may offer)?
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*The Beatles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0)starts to play in the background as hippie dark elves gather with lawful giants*
// Opps... John Lennon starts singing in the back ground..... I forgot this wasn't a "Beatles" song.....
While the vile Toranites, Berylites, Voraxians etc gather to oppress these children of prejudice.... ;)
I do thank you Eyvind for taking bringing this up. Sometimes alignment requirements are purely for balance or flavour; and although I agree exceptions could happen, I fear the exception has a way of becoming the norm.
I would loathe to see half-giants go the way of darkelves...
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Please keep brownies and goblins! Two of my finest memories on this server playing both. That will ensure my subscription!
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it might be best just to take a deep breath and remember that its a game, and we don't make the rules.
Whoever does make the rules can still do their best to explain them if asked about it.
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Well I think for now we should all lean back for a moment and take a deep breath, to be honest. I am sure someone with the knowledge about why it is as it is will read this thread sooner or later and make a statement.
Just let us all keep in mind that RL sometimes interferes and people have a life besides Layo as well (Yes, we do). Right now we're just turning around in a circle and going nowhere.
I am pretty sure there will be an explanation and it will be posted or was already somewhere in in this forum, I wouldn't know.
So well, we all lean back, take a deep breath and wait for one with the knowledge to show up. :)
-Lily
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Please keep brownies and goblins! Two of my finest memories on this server playing both. That will ensure my subscription!
I'm sure some version of those races will exist in Layo, whether initially or after an expansion. it's not that hard to take a human model and just make it 1/4 the original size.
And Goblins are just really ugly Halfling. A different texture and head model can do wonders in the digital world
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I can't simply accept this "because it's in their blood" explanation for such restrictions. It would be fine reasoning to explain why most half-giants are chaotic, or why there are very few lawful half-giants. It does not validate utterly preventing a half-giant from being lawful, though. People go against their "blood" all the time, consciously and not.
People can go against their blood in real life because people are not the incarnation of an alignment. For example, in DnD, a Tanar'ri HAS to be CE because they are the plane's actual manifestation of that alignment. Furthering spawn from that, such as cambion/alu-demon and tieflings, have the ability to pick other alignments because their blood is diluted.
Giants are not a planar representation like the Tanar'ri or Baatezu, but I believe the same basic thought is used in their creation. Granted, I can't pull any examples because I've only thoroughly studied the planes (Like, I own and read every book regarding the planes :P). I still believe that the just blood explanation can work, however. A giant is like a wild animal... they're chaotic, and MAYBE you can tame it to neutrality, but you can never teach it to follow the same laws and morals that drives the more developed races.
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But would any such natural tendency carry over strongly into a half-breed? Considering all the other ways Half-Giants take after their human ancestry, I would think not.
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Half-breeds, I would say yes. You will find most examples of Tanar'ri spawn that is half blood to be the same alignment as their Tanar'ri mother/father. Proper care and nurture rarely work for something that is BORN to be as it is. You will still have the natural urges that are the biological development of the brain to contend with even if you want to be a, for example, lawful half-giant. The very fact these urges remain will keep them from being fully lawful... so they're locked out of it.
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Half Giants are as diverse as humans in alignment.
Half Giants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than, say, Half Elves.
However Human raised Half Giants have been known to worship any number of gods, reflecting the diversity among their human parents.
These lead me to believe that Half-Giants are nearly as malleable as any human child.
We still haven't touched on what some here have pointed out to be a crucial distinction:
player character half-giants are only of the hill giant variety and thus cannot be lawful.
What makes Hill Giants different from other Giants?
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SRD - Monsters G (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#hill-giant)
=)
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Thank you all for giving your input on this. Still not quite satisfied, and though I might never be, I'd still like to push this some more.
I can't simply accept this "because it's in their blood" explanation for such restrictions. It would be fine reasoning to explain why most half-giants are chaotic, or why there are very few lawful half-giants. It does not validate utterly preventing a half-giant from being lawful, though. People go against their "blood" all the time, consciously and not.
You have never tried raising animals have you? You can not train a beagle not to hunt, it is in their blood, period. You can not domesticate a lion or tiger. They will always be dangerous and one bite from killing you. It is in their blood.
The Kitty is always cute until it rips your arm off...:o
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Alignment restrictions exist as trade offs for other properties of the races and for PCs to understand their roles as that subrace a little more.
Your argument is no different from saying "I want the extra feat that Humans get with Quick to Master because my halfling grew up with humans, look how my biography outlines this..."
An exception to the rule in a character biography is not going to alter the system dynamics that DnD/Bioware/Layonara have instilled.
You're trying to fit in a variation of the norm because it is plausible that it could happen. But why can't you accept that we disallow these variants to help the player understand the role and as a trade off for the bonuses that this player receives.
You want the traits that come with being a half giant, then you're going to have to play either Neutral or Chaotic. Is that not acceptable?
Aside from all this, as I told you on IRC, no one is going to change the coding that handles this restriction.
Also the few dozen people who already met this restriction would certainly be disappointed were we to change things at this stage.
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Orth you are quite completely missing my point. This is not about my character. It stopped being about my character after our conversation in IRC.
I am asking about the fundamental traits of Hill-Giants and Half-Giants that are the basis for these restrictions. If you have them in place for players to better understand their roles, then it should be easy to explain. I only wish someone would.
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Regardless of any guessing and philosophizing of IC reasons or mechanical explanations about why half giants cannot be Lawful, there's a good chance that there is no IC reason at all. I know that sucks. I don't like it, either, since I like things to make sense and I think it diminishes the world not to supply in-world reasons for the way things are. That's the way it goes sometimes, though.
There are several weird things like that floating around. I don't know what kind of personality you have, but I can tell you I don't really like letting those things go. I want Layonara to be the best it can be, and leaving holes like that is just bad. But sometimes there aren't going to be any answers coming and there are going to be holes, and you have to let go, just so you don't burn yourself out. Hopefully, there won't be any holes left hanging inexplicably in the MMO.
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Fair enough, my apologies. If you're looking for a historic outline of the trials and evolution of the Layonara Hill Giant that has caused this genetic predisposition in them and their offspring Half-Giants then I refer you to EdTheKet. Send him a PM or hope he checks up on this thread.
Orth you are quite completely missing my point. This is not about my character. It stopped being about my character after our conversation in IRC.
I am asking about the fundamental traits of Hill-Giants and Half-Giants that are the basis for these restrictions. If you have them in place for players to better understand their roles, then it should be easy to explain. I only wish someone would.
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You have never tried raising animals have you? You can not train a beagle not to hunt, it is in their blood, period. You can not domesticate a lion or tiger. They will always be dangerous and one bite from killing you. It is in their blood.
The Kitty is always cute until it rips your arm off...:o
Half-giants aren't animals, though are they? If they were they wouldn't be playable. The fact that they can make rational decisions -- however limited -- is what makes them playable, isn't it?
Regardless of any guessing and philosophizing of IC reasons or mechanical explanations about why half giants cannot be Lawful, there's a good chance that there is no IC reason at all. I know that sucks. I don't like it, either, since I like things to make sense and I think it diminishes the world not to supply in-world reasons for the way things are. That's the way it goes sometimes, though.
Regardless of any guessing and philosophizing of IC reasons or mechanical explanations about why half giants cannot be Lawful, there's a good chance that there is no IC reason at all. I know that sucks. I don't like it, either, since I like things to make sense and I think it diminishes the world not to supply in-world reasons for the way things are. That's the way it goes sometimes, though.
There are several weird things like that floating around. I don't know what kind of personality you have, but I can tell you I don't really like letting those things go. I want Layonara to be the best it can be, and leaving holes like that is just bad. But sometimes there aren't going to be any answers coming and there are going to be holes, and you have to let go, just so you don't burn yourself out. Hopefully, there won't be any holes left hanging inexplicably in the MMO.
Hah. Well. Barely a day has yet passed with this thread open, and if there is any chance of patching this hole then I will keep it up until it is.
In my opinion, if there is no good IC reason for something then that something shouldn't be. There are always other solutions to fix problems than arbitrarily assuming good but nonexistent reasons for an easy fix.
That said, this is not fundamentally what I meant this thread to be about.
Fair enough, my apologies. If you're looking for a historic outline of the trials and evolution of the Layonara Hill Giant that has caused this genetic predisposition in them and their offspring Half-Giants then I refer you to EdTheKet. Send him a PM or hope he checks up on this thread.
Thank you! I will do that.
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Good luck. I was speaking from experience as an aspiring hole filler, though, so, really, try not to overdo the trying.
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I don't want to hear that the only reasons are (1) that Half-Giant Monks are overpowered and (2) it would be tedious to make technically possible. I understand these two reasons and I am not arguing or looking for reasons for this to be allowed. I want to know what the lore reasons for not allowing it are.
The reasons for not allowing lawful half-giants are:
1) Half-Giant Monks are overpowered
2) it would be tedious to make technically possible
3) when we initially put them in, we were still D&D and followed the D&D alignments mostly. Now we're moving away from that, but will not change it because of #2.
4) there will be no Hill Giants in the MMO so no work will be done on them.
So, as you can see, there is none, like I mentioned on IRC yesterday, the main reason is #1 (and #2 which orth stated).
We will not be making any programmatic or coding changes to allow for a lawful half-giant to be possible in NWN. Nor will I make any lore changes to make a lawful half-giant possible, because of #4 (and not to mention that half-races in itself are no longer possible).
That's the best answer I can give you.
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I dont know much about Layonara, but on reflect from other games/campaigns Ive played... technically nothing is improbable!
Perhaps good dark elves and lawfull half giants could be special awards for good (extremely good; bordering on being a company president for your advertising boards) roleplay!
I know Im thinking against hope here but Ive seen more really crazy characters on high roleplay servers before :(
The question is: Is it good roleplay or is it powergaming? Not to say you cant roleplay a statistically powerfull character *shrugs*
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I can only hope the MMO will not have design flaws such as this.
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These alignments are restricted on creation only.
There's nothing preventing one from shifting from one to another by RP in game (except for Brownies which are completely alignment-locked; like if they would explode if they were to change to an evil alignment).
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Getting conflicting messages here. What's the bottom line?
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I can only hope the MMO will not have design flaws such as this.
It's not a Design Flaw. Remember that Neverwinter Nights, the medium through which we play in the world of Layonara, is Dungeon and Dragons at the Core, Rule Set 3.0, and was not designed to make Layonara possible. It was designed as the game Neverwinter Nights. All of what has become Layo so far has been hard work for All involved, and trying to find a code to work around the Alignment issue for Half Giants is not something on anyones "must fix" list with an MMO in the works. Also keep in mind that when the MMO comes out, there will be no half giants, no half orcs, no half ogres or half elves. The only half-anything will be a Ling... a Halfling (and maybe a Quarterling aka Brownie). So really it's for now just a "this is how it is and it's not changing" sorta thing until the MMO, where it will be a non issue for stated reasons. This borders on asking why a Paladin has to be lawful good, when an order Like Rofirein's Knights, a Lawful Neutral God, can't match their Gods alignment.
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Because the lawful Half-Giant restriction is very strict, not like shifting along the good/evil axis, you should not plan for a shift towards lawful.
Their restriction is almost as great as the ones for Brownies, and most likely would require something perhaps on a WL scale in magnitude?
Per default, you can accept is as "it will most likely not be approved".
ps. As with some other things, the rule is a "no", but there are always the "exceptions that confirm the rule" (i.e. possibly WLDQs).
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Wrong, the next time you log in if you were to make an adjustment from Neutral to Lawful, you would be booted from the game as part of the sub race application process. He could shift to 65 points I think it is before it'd be deemed Lawful, not certain of that number offhand though.
These alignments are restricted on creation only.
There's nothing preventing one from shifting from one to another by RP in game (except for Brownies which are completely alignment-locked; like if they would explode if they were to change to an evil alignment).
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On Creation, No, you can't make a Lawful Half Giant. Through CDQs or something? I donno. If NWN completely makes Half Giants incapable of becoming Lawful, then it's something that can't (or won't) be fixed due to what would likely be involved: lots of time the Team doesn't have. If you can slowly shift to Lawful? Then make a Half Giant thats True Neutral and work towards Lawful.... Can't really say much more.
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Answer to the removed message: Ah, per orth's clarification and the fact that script changes are not really done for normal CDQs, it's more or less a case of "no". :)
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I am asking about the fundamental traits of Hill-Giants and Half-Giants that are the basis for these restrictions. If you have them in place for players to better understand their roles, then it should be easy to explain. I only wish someone would.
Some of this information is available in-game. The clarification you seek was made available to me (in part anyways) through IC inquiry. There is information from the to-be-released handbook in the Grannoch forum that is directly relevant. I shall not transcribe here as it is from a restricted access forum. Suffice to say, in my experience, rarely is there no good reason for something in this game, just rarely is that reason readily accessable (in an OOC sense) to explain that something.
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just rarely is that reason readily accessable (in an OOC sense) to explain that something.
This is part of the problem, if I understand Eyvind correctly. If half giants are a playable race and players are expected to play them appropriately for the world, shouldn't any IC reason why they are the way they are be readily and openly available for players to read and understand so they can better RP characters of that race?
As it is, especially considering that [post=1193532]Ed just said[/post] there is no IC, lore-based reason, any IC explanation is basically just a hand-wave to explain the mechanical reasons (which are design flaws from a certain perspective, though that isn't the Layonara team's fault).
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It's not a Design Flaw. Remember that Neverwinter Nights, the medium through which we play in the world of Layonara, is Dungeon and Dragons at the Core, Rule Set 3.0, and was not designed to make Layonara possible. It was designed as the game Neverwinter Nights. All of what has become Layo so far has been hard work for All involved, and trying to find a code to work around the Alignment issue for Half Giants is not something on anyones "must fix" list with an MMO in the works. Also keep in mind that when the MMO comes out, there will be no half giants, no half orcs, no half ogres or half elves. The only half-anything will be a Ling... a Halfling (and maybe a Quarterling aka Brownie). So really it's for now just a "this is how it is and it's not changing" sorta thing until the MMO, where it will be a non issue for stated reasons. This borders on asking why a Paladin has to be lawful good, when an order Like Rofirein's Knights, a Lawful Neutral God, can't match their Gods alignment.
My point was that if this carried over into the MMO, it /would/ be a design flaw. I am only hoping that it won't be carried over, and from this thread it seems reasonably certain that my hopes will be answered.
the next time you log in if you were to make an adjustment from Neutral to Lawful, you would be booted from the game as part of the sub race application process. He could shift to 65 points I think it is before it'd be deemed Lawful, not certain of that number offhand though.
As far as I am concerned, this topic is essentially resolved. I am satisfied with the cumulative explanation here and my previous post stands:
I can only hope the MMO will not have design flaws such as this.
Thank you all, once again, for taking the time to lend your thoughts and knowledge on this issue. It has put my mind at ease.
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Nor will I make any lore changes to make a lawful half-giant possible,
Should still fix that half-giant entry that explicitly states that Half-Giants have as varied alignments as humans. That I think is the most confusing entry.
The goddess of giants, Grannoch is Lawful Neutral. If she created them all, wouldn't they be in her image? I heard some parable that Pyrtechon corrupted them in some manner. Is this why giants and ogres are typically chaotic? Because if we trace the blood, The Mother of All Giants is Lawful. How did most of her children wind up being chaotic or evil?
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I can only hope the MMO will not have design flaws such as this.
Kind of harsh to call it a design flaw, but in any case...
(and not to mention that half-races in itself are no longer possible).
So by this, that means that there won't be any "flaws" with half-giants...because there won't be any half-giants.
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Kind of harsh to call it a design flaw, but in any case...
So by this, that means that there won't be any "flaws" with half-giants...because there won't be any half-giants.
I apologize. I did not mean to sound harsh. I only wish the best for the Layonara MMO.
I suppose the essence of what I am trying to say is that I hope the MMO will not have restrictions on characters that don't have clear lore rationale behind them.
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Should still fix that half-giant entry that explicitly states that Half-Giants have as varied alignments as humans. That I think is the most confusing entry.
The goddess of giants, Grannoch is Lawful Neutral. If she created them all, wouldn't they be in her image? I heard some parable that Pyrtechon corrupted them in some manner. Is this why giants and ogres are typically chaotic? Because if we trace the blood, The Mother of All Giants is Lawful. How did most of her children wind up being chaotic or evil?
Giants are as varied as the elements. So as a group, they can span all the alignments. Children do not always follow the alignment of their parents, afterall.
Grannoch didn't, however, create half-giants....giants and humans did. ;)
The LORE page does make two distinctions:
Half Giants are as diverse as humans in alignment. Few, however, fall into the extremes of Lawful Good (http://lore.layonara.com/Lawful%20Good) or Chaotic Evil (http://lore.layonara.com/Chaotic%20Evil); instead they are usually somewhere in between, tending to the chaotic.
As a race, no alignments are excluded, however, just below we have this:
All PC Half Giants must be submitted as one of the following alignments: True Neutral (http://lore.layonara.com/True%20Neutral), Chaotic Neutral (http://lore.layonara.com/Chaotic%20Neutral), or Neutral Evil (http://lore.layonara.com/Neutral%20Evil). Yes this effectively eliminates a Half Giant Monk. The lone exception to this rule is if a Half Giant is submitted as a cleric of Az'atta (http://lore.layonara.com/Az%27atta), in which case they may submit with a Good alignment. Because Half Giants cannot be Lawful, Lawful Evil (http://lore.layonara.com/Lawful%20Evil) is not open as an alignment on submission for this race.
The emphasis is mine, and these appear one right after the other.
We have a similar rule for dark elves; they are alignment-restricted at character creation, even though half of the dark elf enthusiasts love to point at Drizzt as to why it's silly to not allow a Good-aligned dark elf on submission. For half-giants, this is further limited for administrative and balancing reasons.
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I apologize. I did not mean to sound harsh. I only wish the best for the Layonara MMO.
I suppose the essence of what I am trying to say is that I hope the MMO will not have restrictions on characters that don't have clear lore rationale behind them.
The MMO is a skill-based system, and the mechanics of this system are fully ours. A big part of our problems with certain special cases is that there's a whole bunch that NWN doesn't let us control, and so we're somewhat at its mercy. The MMO's system is intended to provide a great degree of freedom in building a character while attempting to keep everything in some semblance of balance regardless of player choices.
There still won't be any half-giants though. :)
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While the vile Toranites, Berylites, Voraxians etc gather to oppress these children of prejudice.... ;)
No, no,no. Toranites aren't Evil..... and Voraxians because they're allies. the Berylites can stay though. ;)
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This is part of the problem, if I understand Eyvind correctly. If half giants are a playable race and players are expected to play them appropriately for the world, shouldn't any IC reason why they are the way they are be readily and openly available for players to read and understand so they can better RP characters of that race?
Ideally, however I think the delayed release of the next version of the player's handbook and the reasons for such delay have been well covered in other threads.
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I guess, then, that I would ask why information specifically pertaining to a race that was released prior to the full release of the handbook was tucked away in a faith forum where it would be inaccessible to all players of that race (since not all half giants follow Grannoch), and why that information would not simply have been given to a (potential) player of a half giant when all this started rather than having the Loremaster himself eventually come to this thread to say there is no IC reason. It's not really all that important now, though, and I don't really need those answers.
You may be absolutely right that there is some reason tucked away, and it would be awesome that there is a reason. At the same time, it seems sort of pointless and ridiculous to have a reason if it isn't available to the people who need it and if its very existance is going to be publicly denied by the boss.
I hope you can understand why that's confusing and potentially even frustrating.
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OK, this thread looks like it could spiral down and I don't want that.
To address this:
The clarification you seek was made available to me (in part anyways) through IC inquiry. There is information from the to-be-released handbook in the Grannoch forum that is directly relevant.
I guess, then, that I would ask why information specifically pertaining to a race that was released prior to the full release of the handbook was tucked away in a faith forum where it would be inaccessible to all players of that race (since not all half giants follow Grannoch),
There is no information pertaining to the half-giant race in the Grannoch forum.
The only piece of handbook text in there is the following:
The Kerekk of Grannoch is a church in decline. Once powerful with the prayers of the giant kind, it is shrinking as the chaotic nature of the giants and their slow slide into savagery take their attention away from their goddess.
Though there is no current hierarchy for all of the giant races, this was not always so. In each race of giants there are two shaman of Grannoch, called the Son and Daughter of the element that race attunes with (Son of Earth, Daughter of Fire, etc.). This is carried down from the beginnings of the Kerekk, when there was the Four. The Four were the first clergy of Grannoch, each a powerful shaman of one of the four elements and called the Son or Daughter of that element. Elected every fourth Flower Blooms at a gathering in what is now the Lake of Rays, the Four traveled the continents to each community, teaching the tribe’s shaman, renewing the faith, sharing the sacred texts that existed to bring Grannoch into every giant home. They traveled together and presented the worship of Grannoch as a totality of the Four, none surpassing the other.
Over time, the nature of chaos came to the forefront of the giant peoples. Grannoch embraced a lawful view of the world, yet her people could not resist the opportunity to wage war against each other. The Four continued to spread the word until a day that is called Four’s End. On this day, sometime in the second generation of the world, the Four came to a forested giant village preparing for war against an outpost of humans who had been mining the giant’s land. The leader of the humans was a half-giant named Vassi the Bear, who held a strong grudge against the giants for their slights against him when he tried to join their community. When Vassi heard that the Four were at the giant village, he sent his best assassins to slaughter them in their sleep. Three of the Four were killed that night; one escaped with the help of the local shaman. The giants went to war with rage in their hearts for the death of their clergy, and the remaining of the Four, Levka Son of Air, made his way back to his temple alone. That marked the end of the Four, for there was no gathering the next year due to a tribal dispute over the forest west of the Lake Bevlynn. Nor the year after, or after ... however, the naming practice carries on.
You may be absolutely right that there is some reason tucked away,
If there was a reason, I would have stated so in my earlier post. The only reasons are those I already mentioned.
Now, this half-giant race that will not be in the MMO, and for which no characters can be submitted unless they're born before 1420 has taken enough time and energy I believe. I don't think there is anything else to be gained or explained here.
Thank you for your attention.
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Why are half giant monks considered over powered? I cant see anything in the junction of the two that really makes that much of a difference. Can someone explain please.
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Why are half giant monks considered over powered? I cant see anything in the junction of the two that really makes that much of a difference. Can someone explain please.
From this thread: http://forums.layonara.com/fixed-bugs/115003-race-description-half-giant.html
Basically, the idea is that the monk class shores up the HG weaknesses, and vice-versa; I don't know that it's any stronger than certain playable classes, but here you have it:
after making the requisite additions to INT and CHA to meet the min/max rules, a HG monk could start with:
STR 14 (+2 race, +3 subrace) ==> 19
INT 14 (-2 race, -4 subrace) ==> 8
WIS 14 ==> 14
DEX 14 ==> 14
CON 10 (+4 subrace) ==> 14
CHA 12 (-2 race, -4 subrace) ==> 6
Base AC: 16 (10 + 2 DEX + 2 WIS + 2 dodge [racial])
Skill points: 5/level (calculated without subrace penalty), Tumble is a class skill, so AC +1 at level 2 and every 5 levels thereafter
Monk AC: +1/5 levels
The base AC is almost as good as a 1st level human fighter is going to get, based on the armor they can afford (using a shield is the only way the fighter gets an AC advantage with starting funds). At level 20, without any special equipment (and advancing neither WIS or DEX every four levels), the HG Monk would have a "naked" AC of 25 (16 flat-footed), with the class and Tumble bonuses.
An extra attack per round (via Flurry) and Cleave as free feat (especially when doing +4 damage from STR bonuses, and don't forget a higher base unarmed damage for being a large race), can make survivability much easier (the best defense is a good offense) -- rats and skeletons (typical low-level enemies) are particularly vulnerable to Cleave given their low HP and swarm tactics. The only drawback here is the -2 to-hit penalty for a large race (which makes the extra STR a wash for AB, but still extra damage).
As you gain levels, then the Monk abilities start kicking in.. Improved knockdown for a HG without the INT requirement? That's size large plus one category.
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My mistake, I had always read the assassination of the Four (or, three of the four) as an event that precipitated the rise of the chaotic (non-Grannoch) factions of the giant races.
Sorry for any misinformation.
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From this thread: http://forums.layonara.com/fixed-bugs/115003-race-description-half-giant.html
Basically, the idea is that the monk class shores up the HG weaknesses, and vice-versa; I don't know that it's any stronger than certain playable classes, but here you have it:
Thanks for the post. That argument has so many holes in it there is no way it can hold water :) You mine as well say the monk class is overpowered ;) as we have seen, a perfectly optimized and equipped monk is untouchable without GM help. That stands true for many races. A HG monk is not going to be anymore or less powerful then a elf monk if made perfectly but the HG monk will take longer to level.
can make survivability much easier
And there is something wrong with increasing survivability?
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Brownie monk with weapon finesse. That's the uber combo right there...
12 -> 10 STR
18 -> 20 DEX
12 -> 10 Con
14 -> 14 Wis
12 -> 12 Int
8 -> 8 Cha
+2 Listen and Spot, Trackless Step (+4 Hide, Move Silent in outdoors), +2 Dodge, and I think +1 AB and AC for being size Small, so AC 18 Starting out. With +13 Move Silent and Hide at lvl 1. (+17 hide if factoring in size small, and +21 hide if the game mechanics properly handled size tiny)
Spell Resistance unfortunately gets overlapped between racial and Class, though still useful until you get the class version, also monk unarmed damage from the smaller chart. other than that though, The Brownie is well suited for the class, and I dare say would rock more than the giant. I'm not even certain that the game mechanics take into account the large size for large unarmed attacks anyhow. So Half Giant monks being too unbalanced? Nonsense. It's when they have heavy armor, a tower shield with a greataxe that heads even start to turn. Or when they start a 22 con barbarian with toughness that gets 19 hp/lvl since lvl 1. (who then pumps con 5 more times till 20th and buys a full set of all 3 +2 jewelries and +2 stone boots of dodge/constitution, 35 con before spells! yikes! that's *500* hp before an endurance spell, makes Bjorn's 326 look puny) :D
Of couse I'm one of those weird people who just schooses race/class combos for RP factor alone. My deep dwarf monk started with 14s across the board, and a +4 racial vs poisons which was then overlapped by immunity. Over time, survival is far more about what kind of party you can scrounge together and the inherent power of your class abilities and AB progression as much as it is stats. Especially once you start stacking +1 and +2 jewelry.
//Sorry to sidetrack the thread. Just whenever somebody mentions balance and builds, my hooked on nerdphonics kick in
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ohh..... that sounds epic......... but I think a Brownie Barbarian would be cooler. :P
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There is a brownie barbarian!
Her name's Freida
And yeah, she's cooler :-)
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Freida! whoo!