The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Hellblazer on July 22, 2009, 01:39:33 AM
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I was thinking for a while now, (ever since I thought about creating a char that would go weapon master, hence Sil'via before i changed my mind down the road through rp) that with all the rp and training that goes into mastering a certain weapon, for it to become as part of yourself, it would seem more than logical that the weapon master would get weapon specialization at level 1 with weapon of choice. If it was made a requirement, then no other class beside fighter would be able to go weapon master unless you multi classed your character three ways.
As the definition of the feat (http://lore.layonara.com/Weapon%20Specialization) states
Specifics: A character with this feat has trained especially hard with a specific weapon type, gaining a +2 damage bonus when using these weapons in combat.
Also since to be a weapon master you do have to take weapon focus, which is also required for the weapon specialization feat, it just seems to go hand in hand.
Any how, yep! Proposing that the weapon master receives woc and weapon specialization at level 1. It could be stated that this might give a lot of punch to the weapon master.. but when you think about it, they train years to become what they are, and would undoubtedly be truly better than the average joe.
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Or you could just take the feat like anyone else...
I'd propose just making it a feat a WM can choose, since Weap Spec is Fighter Only atm...
Then again you could argue the same thing for Duelists, Champions, Paladins....
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Well, let's face it, Weapon Specialization is one of the very few things that fighters get that other classes can't... Sure, its thematically appropriate for weaponmasters too, but you could make the case that monks deserve to get an unarmed weapon specialization, or that duelists should get a free rapier weapon specialization, and so on.
Let fighters get a few perks to keep for themselves, weapon master gets plenty of goodies, it doesn't really need more.
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Weaponmasters are borderline overpowered as it is for Layonara, so I'd say we keep things as is. There is a point where realism must subside to mechanic balance.
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In my opinion the numbers speak for themselves. There are NO shortages of weapon masters in game. Obviously they are not too weak as is and need no additional freebies or restrictions removed.
As a side note, I have no qualms with what it took for my Weapon Master to be a Weapon Master and he is without doubt far more powerful with the WM class than by any other class that could be taken in its place. Weapon Master is very solid.
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Weaponmasters are borderline overpowered as it is for Layonara, so I'd say we keep things as is. There is a point where realism must subside to mechanic balance.
Realism when looking at the chars played on Layo , is that chars with magic or other special abilities are the ones that are overpowering on the server , not the fighters .
I know this will be answered with " fighters die more often and therefor perm sooner , but maybe its time that the normal way off things in fantasy get re introduced onto Layo .
The world started out as low magical one , but lets face it , that was long ago and the world has changed to one where magic rules .
If it is possible to let a magic user run around with 600+ hit-points , 44 ac , 75% hidden , with summons and spells - then why not re introduce the most powerful things fighters could have , devastating critical ?
Just as the spell-caster had to take every available feat he could to reach the stats , so would be the case for the fighter to get to devastating critical .
There are plenty monsters that are immune to critical hits anyway , so the fable off " devastating critical with great cleave is far to overpowering " can be set back in the closet to never be used again ( forgetting the fact that great cleave only would work if the monster died in one hit - that means : crit hit has to be rolled and the monster must fail its save and that goes for every next monster )
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Realism when looking at the chars played on Layo , is that chars with magic or other special abilities are the ones that are overpowering on the server , not the fighters .
I know this will be answered with " fighters die more often and therefor perm sooner , but maybe its time that the normal way off things in fantasy get re introduced onto Layo .
The world started out as low magical one , but lets face it , that was long ago and the world has changed to one where magic rules .
If it is possible to let a magic user run around with 600+ hit-points , 44 ac , 75% hidden , with summons and spells - then why not re introduce the most powerful things fighters could have , devastating critical ?
Just as the spell-caster had to take every available feat he could to reach the stats , so would be the case for the fighter to get to devastating critical .
There are plenty monsters that are immune to critical hits anyway , so the fable off " devastating critical with great cleave is far to overpowering " can be set back in the closet to never be used again ( forgetting the fact that great cleave only would work if the monster died in one hit - that means : crit hit has to be rolled and the monster must fail its save and that goes for every next monster )
I'm not talking about Melee vs Mage, I'm talking about the perks of the class versus the required investment. Besides, WM is supposed to be an extension of the Fighter class, so any fighter wanting to become a Weaponmaster could and quite rightly should pick up Weapon Specialization.
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I'm not talking about Melee vs Mage, I'm talking about the perks of the class versus the required investment. Besides, WM is supposed to be an extension of the Fighter class, so any fighter wanting to become a Weaponmaster could and quite rightly should pick up Weapon Specialization.
I totally agree with that.. As i see it WM is focused more on the art of the weapon itself , the way of using it eficiently and chanell his inner force upon the weapon. Hence why the Ki and the Crit increase.
Weapon specialization is more based on the fact of knowing how to strike due familiariy with battles and the use of the muscular force more eficiently, And well WM, seems to have another aproach to the whole concept of fighting. they know where and when to strike, combining that to their strenght. Not by strenght and technique only as the fighter does.
Hence Why Fighter / Weapon masters are supposed to be complete artist of their weapons.
Just my two cents
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All that being said, Jan does have a very good point about Dev Crit. It has been pushed very far out of attainable until 40th level for many and some where around 32 if you build specifically to get it. I agree it is way to far out to get. I say bring the STR req back down to 25.
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I'm not talking about Melee vs Mage, I'm talking about the perks of the class versus the required investment. Besides, WM is supposed to be an extension of the Fighter class, so any fighter wanting to become a Weaponmaster could and quite rightly should pick up Weapon Specialization.
Could you please explain what you mean by " the perks of the class versus the required investments " ?
Sorry if it is obvious what you mean , but English isn't my native language and i have no idea what you mean by " perk " .
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Could you please explain what you mean by " the perks of the class versus the required investments " ?
Sorry if it is obvious what you mean , but English isn't my native language and i have no idea what you mean by " perk " .
What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.
In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.
Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.
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What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.
In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.
Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.
Don't forget that for an extra 6 levels, you could potentially apply those bonuses to another weapon, as Epic WMs can take multiple Weapons of Choice. It's impractical but possible
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What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.
In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.
Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.
Duelist
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What I mean is that for 7 levels of investment in the class you acquire abilities that greatly improve melee performance in comparison to other classes.
In this sense, giving another free perk or feat to the class would even further make the class overpowered.
Sure, one can argue, that there is a long list of feat requirements, but Fighters have the cure for it. Especially in Layonara, where keen (essentially a WM's biggest free feat) is extremely hard to come by.
Duelist
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any
BAB: +6
Feats: Dodge - Ambidexterity - Mobility -
Weapon Proficiency (Martial, Rogue or Elf) - Weapon Focus: Rapier
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks - Persuade 5 ranks
lvl Extra
1 Canny Defense
2 Precise Strike +1d6
3 Whirlwind Attack
4 Grace +2
5 Acrobatic Attack +2
6 Precise Strike +2d6
7 Elaborate Parry
Battlerager
Class: Barbarian
Alignment: Any non lawful
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +5
Feats: Cleave - Toughness - Power Attack
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks - Lore 2 ranks
lvl Extra
1 Battle Rage 1x/day
Resist Poison
Skill Focus: Intimidate
2 Aura of Courage
Knockdown
3 Battle Rage 2x/day
Improved Unarmed Strike
4 Great Cleave
Improved Knockdown
5 Armor Skin
Battle Rage 3x/day
Dwarven Defender
Dex : 13
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any lawful
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +7
Feats: Dodge - Toughness
Skills: -
lvl Extra
1 Defensive Stance
2 Defensive Awareness I
3 Defensive Awareness II
4 Dwarven Defender Damage Reduction
Shadowdancer
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Feats: Dodge - Mobility
Skills: Hide 10 - Move Silently 8 - Tumble 5
lvl Extra
1 Hide in Plain Sight
2 Darkvision
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge I
3 Shadow Daze
Summon Shadow
4 Shadow Evade
5 Defensive Roll
Uncanny Dodge II
7 Slippery Mind
Weapon Master
Intelligence 13 ( needed for expertise )
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: +5
Feats: Dodge - Mobility - Expertise - Spring Attack - Weapon Focus(melee weapon) - Whirlwind Attack
Skills: Intimidate 4
lvl Extra
1 Ki Damage
Weapon of Choice
5 Increased Multiplier
Superior Weapon Focus
7 Ki Critical
Five classes that i know are played and in my eyes are melee characters .
These are the facts directly from LORE and if you ask me , then Weaponmaster has the worst deal off all .
They have to invest the most and get only 1 feat more then DD , who only have to invest 2 feats .
( only went to max lvl 7 with extras , since you mentioned that those are all the lvls you need with WM , if you look at lvls higher you will see that the difference in extras even becomes greater . )
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These are the facts directly from LORE and if you ask me , then Weaponmaster has the worst deal off all .
They have to invest the most and get only 1 feat more then DD , who only have to invest 2 feats .
Invest the most what? Feats?
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Weapon Master
Intelligence 13 ( needed for expertise )
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: +5
Feats: Dodge - Mobility - Expertise - Spring Attack - Weapon Focus(melee weapon) - Whirlwind Attack
Skills: Intimidate 4
lvl Extra
1 Ki Damage
Weapon of Choice
5 Increased Multiplier
Superior Weapon Focus
7 Ki Critical
Don't forget you need 13 DEX for Dodge and Mobility and that Intimidate is a cross class skill for Fighters, and most other Melee Base classes
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Just before we expand more on balance of classes. I'd like to say that this thread is about Weapon specialization for WM, right?
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Yeah, but the very nature of these "Can X class get X benefit" threads means they are going to waver from the main point because people are going to start arguing about balance, about Class Y not having something, etc...
You know, I was gonna add a whole rant about why these sorts of threads annoy me, and why this one just irks me something awful, but I decided to just tell you that, instead of troll/flame the thread... Continue discussing this to ad nausium... :) I'm gonna just ignore this thread now...
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Every time there is some argument about class balance, someone always narrows things down too much. That's why I asked what "invest the most" means. If it's only invested feats being considered, who cares? As far as I'm aware, there's only one Weapon Master that doesn't have Fighter levels. Fighters get oodles of feats, and Weapon Master is almost always a Fighter PrC, so it's not that big a deal that it requires lots of feats. Spending feats is not really a serious investment for Fighters, and the feats required for WM aren't 'throw away' filler, anyway.
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Well, let's face it, Weapon Specialization is one of the very few things that fighters get that other classes can't... Sure, its thematically appropriate for weaponmasters too, but you could make the case that monks deserve to get an unarmed weapon specialization, or that duelists should get a free rapier weapon specialization, and so on.
Let fighters get a few perks to keep for themselves, weapon master gets plenty of goodies, it doesn't really need more.
Just the share amount of feat a fighter can take in a very short time is the perk of the fighter. They get the regular feat at each 3 level interval plus one extra feat every two level.
I totally agree with that.. As i see it WM is focused more on the art of the weapon itself , the way of using it eficiently and chanell his inner force upon the weapon. Hence why the Ki and the Crit increase.
Weapon specialization is more based on the fact of knowing how to strike due familiariy with battles and the use of the muscular force more eficiently, And well WM, seems to have another aproach to the whole concept of fighting. they know where and when to strike, combining that to their strenght. Not by strenght and technique only as the fighter does.
Hence Why Fighter / Weapon masters are supposed to be complete artist of their weapons.
Just my two cents
If you know the art of the sword (or any weapon for that matter) to perfection, as being a weapon master implies. Then you know how to perfectly apply your art to be the most devastating weapon handler.
Every time there is some argument about class balance, someone always narrows things down too much. That's why I asked what "invest the most" means. If it's only invested feats being considered, who cares? As far as I'm aware, there's only one Weapon Master that doesn't have Fighter levels. Fighters get oodles of feats, and Weapon Master is almost always a Fighter PrC, so it's not that big a deal that it requires lots of feats. Spending feats is not really a serious investment for Fighters, and the feats required for WM aren't 'throw away' filler, anyway.
Unless you're speaking of Feh, then there is two :p
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Don't forget you need 13 DEX for Dodge and Mobility and that Intimidate is a cross class skill for Fighters, and most other Melee Base classes
the only one not using either dodge or mobility is battleranger , so i figured i would give them that since all others require the 13 DEX ;)
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Just before we expand more on balance of classes. I'd like to say that this thread is about Weapon specialization for WM, right?
It is and by showing that WM's dont get as much as everyone seems to think i hope to show that an extra free feat wont be as bad as they think :)
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Invest the most what? Feats?
Feats - skills - ability stats , to even be able to take the WM class .
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There is very little point in arguing about the weight and level of power of these feats, but as I stated before, WM has LORE: Increased Multiplier (http://lore.layonara.com/Increased%20Multiplier) and LORE: Ki Critical (http://lore.layonara.com/Ki%20Critical) which are two enormously strong feats for a low/mid-magic world with very rare permakeen.
However I will offer my insight into the other classes you posted as well, even if only just for reference.
Duelist
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any
BAB: +6
Feats: Dodge - Ambidexterity - Mobility -
Weapon Proficiency (Martial, Rogue or Elf) - Weapon Focus: Rapier
Skills: Tumble 5 ranks - Persuade 5 ranks
lvl Extra
1 Canny Defense
2 Precise Strike +1d6
3 Whirlwind Attack
4 Grace +2
5 Acrobatic Attack +2
6 Precise Strike +2d6
7 Elaborate Parry
Duelist has 3 of the same feats of WM-s 6 as requirements and forces the PC to withdraw from using a shield. To offset this, the Duelist gets LORE: Canny Defense (http://lore.layonara.com/Canny%20Defense) which in itself is a powerful feat, but isn't click-and-go, it requires investment into an ability score that does not directly benefit any melee character, therefore spreading the Duelist's ability scores very thin.
The Duelist is hardly a weak PrC, on the contrary it is very strong, but it requires to be built into with careful multiclassing and level planning to make it effective. It's a late bloomer and none of the feats the Duelist has, affect damage output as severely as the WM-s two feats along with a strong boost to Attack Bonus and the fact that the WM really needs to focus on one ability score to emphasize its effectiveness.
Battlerager
Class: Barbarian
Alignment: Any non lawful
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +5
Feats: Cleave - Toughness - Power Attack
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks - Lore 2 ranks
lvl Extra
1 Battle Rage 1x/day
Resist Poison
Skill Focus: Intimidate
2 Aura of Courage
Knockdown
3 Battle Rage 2x/day
Improved Unarmed Strike
4 Great Cleave
Improved Knockdown
5 Armor Skin
Battle Rage 3x/day
The Battlerager is a very strong PrC in the sense of investment vs gain. It singlehandedly puts a Barbarian, that otherwise lacks feats it lacks from not getting Fighter bonus feats, on the same level or slightly above as a pure fighter of the same level.
However, the only thing that does set it apart is the fear immunity in the form of LORE: Aura of Courage (http://lore.layonara.com/Aura%20of%20Courage) . So, looking at only mechanics, it's a filler PrC for Barbarians, it hardly boosts their prowess by much beyond gaining access to certain feats earlier than usual.
However, it has quite severe restrictions. What a WM really requires (or should require) is a certain amount of levels in Fighter to accumulate the feats and BAB. The Battlerager on the other hand requires a certain race, class and RP-wise it forces you to play a reckless axe-idiot to portray the class correctly. The WM has none of similar restrictions. He can be whatever, whoever and use whichever weapon (or two) and gain massive melee bonuses to it.
Overall the Battlerager is a uniquely fun class and offers a lot of RP options, however it does post many requirements and restrictions that most players do not enjoy (proven by the lack of Ragers in our community).
Dwarven Defender
Dex : 13
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any lawful
Race: Dwarf
BAB: +7
Feats: Dodge - Toughness
Skills: -
lvl Extra
1 Defensive Stance
2 Defensive Awareness I
3 Defensive Awareness II
4 Dwarven Defender Damage Reduction
Ah, my beloved Dwarven Defender. While overall nothing too special, in a lower end magic world, which does not offer immunities very freely, it shines like a beacon in the night.
The DD in essence has three trademark abilities/feats:
1) LORE: Defensive Stance (http://lore.layonara.com/Defensive%20Stance) - A bandaid to aid the Heavy Armored melee to be slightly more evasive and tougher, but requires you to stand still, which is bad.
2) LORE: Defensive Awareness (http://lore.layonara.com/Defensive%20Awareness) II - The Grail of this PrC, it allows you to withstand Sneak attacks that are performed via flanking. It's great, but sadly due to Bioware's capable hands, it has kinks and bugs of its own.
3) LORE: Dwarven Defender Damage Reduction (http://lore.layonara.com/Dwarven%20Defender%20Damage%20Reduction) - 3/- DR every 4 levels of class. It helps against the damage, but again to make it worthwhile, you have to invest massive amounts of levels into it, and preferrably build around Constitution to make it great. This however weakens the damage output of the character in question.
In comparison to WM, the DD focuses more on survivability and does a great job at it, but requires massive investments to be effective above par. DA II is effectively its greatest asset, similar to the Shadowdancer's HiPS, but I haven't gotten to the other aspects yet - restrictions.
The character has to be lawful, a dwarf and it requires CDQ-s to acquire. That puts things nicely into perspective, balance-wise. Taking all of that into account, WM is already better as is, without WS.
Shadowdancer
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Feats: Dodge - Mobility
Skills: Hide 10 - Move Silently 8 - Tumble 5
lvl Extra
1 Hide in Plain Sight
2 Darkvision
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge I
3 Shadow Daze
Summon Shadow
4 Shadow Evade
5 Defensive Roll
Uncanny Dodge II
7 Slippery Mind
Built to supplement the Rogue with more Sneak attacks, it's greatest asset is LORE: Hide in Plain Sight (http://lore.layonara.com/Hide%20in%20Plain%20Sight) . Thankfully now Rangers get a similar ability, so they really have no pressing need to multiclass into it. Beyond HiPS, which is very powerful, the Shadowdancer offers a Rogue very little. To a Ranger it offers several defensive feats such as LORE: Evasion (http://lore.layonara.com/Evasion) , but whether it's worthwhile to them is a whole other topic.
All in all, a great class with one amazing ability, but beyond that it's mostly useless (and cheesy, if only used for HiPS). The WM gives to a fighter much more than SD to a Rogue, due to the fact that the WM feats are passive in nature.
Weapon Master
Intelligence 13 ( needed for expertise )
Class: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Alignment: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
Race: Any ? ( not listed on LORE )
BAB: +5
Feats: Dodge - Mobility - Expertise - Spring Attack - Weapon Focus(melee weapon) - Whirlwind Attack
Skills: Intimidate 4
lvl Extra
1 Ki Damage
Weapon of Choice
5 Increased Multiplier
Superior Weapon Focus
7 Ki Critical
All I want to add to the WM requirements is that it really needs only one feat that is useless and that is LORE: Whirlwind Attack (http://lore.layonara.com/Whirlwind%20Attack) . LORE: Spring Attack (http://lore.layonara.com/Spring%20Attack) is great for a pure fighter to have anyway and so is LORE: Expertise (http://lore.layonara.com/Expertise) . Every purebreed fighter would eventually take them anyway (with so many extra feats to burn, they eventually run out of options).
Five classes that i know are played and in my eyes are melee characters .
These are the facts directly from LORE and if you ask me , then Weaponmaster has the worst deal off all .
They have to invest the most and get only 1 feat more then DD , who only have to invest 2 feats .
( only went to max lvl 7 with extras , since you mentioned that those are all the lvls you need with WM , if you look at lvls higher you will see that the difference in extras even becomes greater . )
I disagree, I think that the WM gets a lot for 7 levels without hardly any useless or overdemanding requirements in both mechanics, roleplay and character development.
But to make it clear, I'm not trying to prove that the WM is infact overpowered, I'm trying to prove that they hardly need any additional freebies. That is all.
This is completely my personal opinion, but I do hope the arguments I presented above shed some light into it.