The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: jrizz on October 27, 2009, 11:31:34 PM
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OK I have to say that these things are way over the top tough. I know a mage can wipe out a group of them with one spell. But a buffed high level fighter cant even take one of them. Somewhere that makes very little sense.
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*coughs* "This is a low-magic world" */coughs*
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No it is not, it is a low magic ITEM world. There is a big big difference. If it was a low magic world then the bad guys would not all be hasted with DR to everything and be able to spam spells at light speed. Furthermore if it was a low magic world then mages would not be the most powerful thing on the server.
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They are tough. But there are also plenty of things that magic will not even touch.
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Yes there are there are a few things that mass death spells wont touch. But those same things are not touchable by fighters without massive amounts of buffs. So how it turns out is that mass death spells allow solo casters or small casters groups to clean up in some very tough areas. Take a small group of similar level and well equipped fighters and they would not be able to do 1/20th of what those casters can do. Thus we are a low magic ITEM world not a low magic world.
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Rather than beefing ALL of a spawn up to be immune to this trick or that like the forrest giants have recently been with their newfound will power, I would like to see more mixed spawns and such. A group of only bruisers or only mages or only giants for that matter, give them a nice rounded out with flankers, tanks, spellcasters, clerics, etc. That way the insta death wouldn't hit them all, meanwhile the beefy fighter would need more mage support against caster spells, the flanking rogues can come up and sap your strength and hp with poison weapons and crippling strike, and so on. So rather than taking these creatures which are way difficult to fighters and raising their will saves so they can't be death spelled, mix it up!
Oh, and we are only a low magic item world for players. You should see how many monsters chop right through +3/15 Stoneskin DR like butter, with their emerald acid dripping axes. Too bad those awesome items keep vanishing when we kill them, but I suppose the monsters feel that same frustration when we ride the bindstone intact. ;)
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The screeching are among the more powerful spawns on the server build to challenge a group of level 30+players, and they replaced the old trollorc spawn because that was severely unbalanced. You had archers who would rip players apart from half across the area + they all had low saves thereby making it too easy for mages to solo. In my opinion the screeching are balanced compared to what level group they're aimed to give a challenge.
I'm not going to launch into a debate about the balance between casters and none caster, except saying they are unbalanced by default in nwn, and the team is doing its best to equal that out (without adding +10 items to the game)
So in short:
Not saying that the Screeching aren't tough, but to tough compared to what?
Should all spawns be killable when you reach level xx?
Should there still be places where even the most powerful groups will have to fight for their lives?
Should all powerful spawns be hidden at least 1 hour travel away?
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The debate about casters and non casters has gone on many times before with varying outcomes. But recently I went to look at how mass death spells were dealt with on other servers. I did this due to the added fire power that Layo gave to casters in the form of power word kill. I wanted to see if that spell was beefed up anywhere else. I found that most mass death spells were nerfed enough so that they still thinned out the crowd but left a fight behind to deal with.
BTW - I saw on one server where items where in the game that were meant for certain races and classes and even though UMD or race allowances (like elf and long sword) could overcome those, some of them just had OOC statements in them they said this is for XX class or race or alignment and only for them. We could do that and solve some of the issues (like elf mages with dragon slayer swords) of adding some cool (and yes powerful) class, race, alignment based items to Layo.
As for the screeching being among the more powerful spawns, well there is no doubt about that, but two 30th level mages will take them out (At least when they had the archers mages needed fighters/front liners to take the brunt of the arrows). There is no way that two 30th fighters could do that same thing (unless of course they were fighter mages builds).
No there should never be a all spawns should be killable at xx level but when you have a 25th level mage wiping out whole spawns due to the use of a few mass death spells and a 30th level fighter that would be pulped by any one bad guy from one of those spawns you have a massive balance issue.
On your question "Should there still be places where even the most powerful groups will have to fight for their lives? ". I have pondered this often. My conclusion is that no there should not be. All spawns should be built for the kind of builds we want to support and encourage on layo, the mid builds with quirks and non-perfect numbers, the builds with a interesting mix of feats and skills, sure they are not as powerful as they could be if they picked all the right feats and skills at the right time and have the perfect class, level, race mix but they have color and character. If that means that the power builds get bored because there is nothing to challenge them, then great! go make a PC that has some faults. There should NEVER NEVER be spawns built to deal with fully optimized perfect numbers builds. That is contrary to the spirit of the server. I know many people that have PCs and call them their RP PC!!! You have to know that you went wrong somewhere when the player base builds PCs for RP with the knowledge that they will never go to the far reaches of the server (unless on a quest and at great risk).
There should be powerful spawns everywhere but powerful to the mid range of builds not the fully optimized range.
@lonnarin hit it right on the head. We need better mixes in high level spawns, so that when the mass death and stun spells are done there is still a group of angry tough bad guys that need hacking, not two or three dazed/blinded/half dead non-threats left, but fully ready buffed tough angry bad guys that will need joint efforts to take down. And woe to the fools who try to take them without a full array of support.
But if you are going to make spawns where one or two mages can go in and wipe them out then maybe just maybe it would be good if a half buffed fighter could take one of them one on one.
Just for information - My main PC Wren is a imperfect build for sure. He is a elf barbarian with some fighter and rouge levels (takes a XP hit due to it BTW). I built him to be effective in a group. Solo he can only go places that he gets no XP and are for the mid-level range. But you put him with a mage and he is good, put him with a mage and a cleric and he is very good, put him with a mage, cleric, and bard and he is unstoppable. I am sure that last part is true of many PCs but you have to look at the range he has. Alone he is mince meat in high level areas with the right group make up he is crazy good. That is in my opinion the recipe for the perfect layo build.
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I'm not sure what mage that can clear out the trollocs with one spell.. I have tried it with Amanda. She is lucky if she can clear one area using up every one of her spells. Put Ami (32) and Amanda (33) they can clear maybe two area's before they are out of spells. It is very risky. Maybe I'm doing something wrong or it is Amanda's build but they shoot her up very quickly once they get through her wards.
Edited to add: The only thing I saw that the area of affect spells would totally clear out was the Great forest giants. Which has since been fixed.
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Tralek (23 lvl wiz) happened upon two Screechers mistakenly thinking that something else was gona be there. Their spell resistance beat all his spells. Those things are brutal.
I actually was very impressed by this. It created a challenge for me. I like challenges in the game. It's what makes me start thinking more creatively about my tactics and strategy; probably one of the most exciting parts of the game for me.
I also like what Jrizz and Lonnarin said about having areas with a balanced group of enemy; groups of enemies that take a well balanced party to eliminate. It promotes then need to party up and prevents soloing.
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While I'm not going anywhere near the topic of caster vs. melee balance (because it just won't go anywhere good, as history has shown), I will touch on a couple of other points raised above for the purpose of clarity.
The "new found willpower" in the giants was to correct them being rather fragile in that regard. There were other issues as well with the giants in the Great Forest, and yes, they will be getting one more tweak next time, but the whole point of the recent changes was to take PWK out of the "I Win!" category and put it firmly into the "Well I've got a fighting chance" category. At the same time, their AC was reduced some, giving melee combatants a better chance.
I already have a note to take a look at the Trollocs as well for similar issues to the giants, but in some ways they are already better. There are other issues with the spawns in a mechanical sense which could use some attention...and will receive some attention next time. Don't worry. I'm not doing anything drastic, but there will be a difference.
Oh and as a point of interest, the old Trollocs were put in place in response to the over-farming of giants by casters back when we had someone else primarily building areas. *grins*
That is all. Feel free to butt heads on the caster vs. melee debate. I am stepping away now. :)
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@davidhoff thanks for the input. It actually goes to one of my points. Tralek is not a optimized build I suspect. If he were he would have been able to take on two screechers, with difficulty of course, but a 23rd level optimized wizard build could do it (if ready for it). But he has been built in unison with a fighter (verbal) together they make a formidable pair. That is truly in the spirt of layo.
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There is only one or two mages I know that can take the trollocs alone. One of them would just go in "weird" or what ever and loot those that died and leave the rest. That is not soloing.
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The trollocs are not the only area that this unbalance rears its ugly head over, nor is it constrained to only high level areas. Yes the casters should be more powerful in a low mage world but the gap has gotten so wide that this statement is now very true:
"Casters dont need melee classes with them but melee classes do need casters with them"
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In my opnion this is not a low magic world by any means.
In a world where a mage has a choice of if they want to go off on their own, or with a big group, either way, they will be able to find something they can kill, so if a caster really wants to (not necessarily a mage, most casters though) they can achieve level 30, with little problems going out on their own soloing.
A fighter, could not get to 30 in the same amount of time, no way, it's impossible, theres no instant death magic for fighters, and fighters cannot travel without a party, due to having to get involved up close and taking damage, they need magic for the weapons to do much, and a healer usually, among other spells etc.
After epic levels, and where fighters could once go, with or without a group, has completely been changed, so that casters must be taken along too.
A level 30 fighter....who has seen a level 30 fighter go solo for exp recently? Well I can find one spot to get 64 exp a kill. But spending 20mins going through an area for about 1200 exp, does not really motivate me at all.
Not to mention theres still a risk of dying for that measly amount.
I guess what I'm basically saying is, a caster can get to level 30 on their own, no way a fighter could do that anymore. And once at those levels, good luck taking your fighter off to solo, anywhere.
As Jrizz stated, low magic item world, but far off from being a low magic world - give us something to dig our swords + axes into. please.
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As Jrizz stated, low magic item world, but far off from being a low magic world - give us something to dig our swords + axes into. please.
Like the Thunder Peaks?
Or is it that you want to have a more melee-oriented place that is solo-able by the non-caster set?
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Oh I agree that mages are more powerful than any other class.. I have Emie and Amanda. ;) But the post started off with the trollocs so that is what my focus was on.
What about the Thunderpeaks and the Rift?
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@lynn I think I was over stating when I said a mage can wipe out a group of them with one spell, it take a few more then that. But the discussion really has gone to the expanding gap between caster and melee classes.
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What makes the mage able to solo/overpower enemies is their ability to immobilize and/or kill mass amounts of enemies, usually through one of the instadeath spells. Hence, I will focus my discussion on instadeath spells. The trollocs may be soloable by a 30+ level mage, but the following will not only address that, it should also address all situations involving monster group soloing.
The easiest way, IMO, to deal with the mass-instadeath spells in a manner that both keeps them as viable for the caster but still promote party play is to cap the number of kills at three or possibly five. We already have kill caps on insta death spells (PWK is one of those, actually), but the cap increases with level (which makes sense) and ultimately allows for double digit kills (which makes them really nice and powerful).
Without going into a major discussion of party roles, you have two general types of party mages: buff mages (often clerics/druids) and attack mages (often wizards/sorcerers). Most do a little of both, but those that specialize in one or the other tend to be better in combat. Since we want to promote grouping, teamwork, and RP, the attack mage's role should be to soften up the enemies for the fighters to finish off. By "soften up" I don't mean completely immobilize or kill most of the enemies. I mean that the mage makes the enemies easier to kill, either by doing mass damage (say from fireballs and lightening bolts), or by singling out particularly tough foes and taking them out of the battle (say from a Bigby's or hold monster). If PWK, Wierd, Wail, etc, capped at three (or even five) kills, they'd fulfill the role of softening the group of enemies without impeding on the role of the fighters and rogues to finish off the baddies. Also, mages would still be able to solo in the sense that their magic would still be powerful, but they wouldn't be able to go so far on one rest. You couldn't kill a whole group of giants with two-three spells. You'd need six or seven or maybe more. But with a good group, a mage could just expend the three spells, and let the warriors/rogues finish off the rest of the monsters. Also, this would make builds that focus on damage spells (instead of instadeath spells) more viable, especially with the recent update that allows for damage spells to continue their progression into epic levels.
If you wanted to keep with the graduated theme for the instadeath spells (they get better as you level), then maybe start with a cap of three, then increase the cap by maybe one per five levels after 20th, so that the total reaches seven by 40th.
This concept is not new, and has come up before. I think it's been shot down for reasons like fear of the spells being "nerfed," it's never good to "take things away," etc.
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Like the Thunder Peaks?
Or is it that you want to have a more melee-oriented place that is solo-able by the non-caster set?
The peaks is only one place and even though it has changed it is still for the first few areas very unbalanced in the melee class direction. The misted is pretty much a no go zone for casters and thus does nothing to promote balanced mixed groups. As far as no magic areas and balance the Rift is the best done area. At the right level range it needs a full array of classes to deal with it. Going in and out of no magic areas makes for an interesting challenge all around. Something that would give the rift even more of a boost would be more hard traps and locks in the no magic areas.
So I think it is clear that my direction is about driving the need for more balanced groups and reducing soloing.
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Thanks Milty you hit it on the head. Very clear and easy to understand the challenge and the solutions.
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Like the Thunder Peaks?
Or is it that you want to have a more melee-oriented place that is solo-able by the non-caster set?
Thunder peaks was a great place to travel, and still is. I like the changes that were implemented to the areas (except for the fact a level 30 fighter has no place to go alone) as it does usually wind up with a varied class group travelling up there.
And the rift, again is a good set of areas.
I would prefer a place where a good group non casters roughly 25-30 can go, but also a place that is do-able, on your own (even if they are separate places). Basically the ability for an epic fighter to be able to fight something on their own, without feeling you have achieved nothing after.
Getting back to the Trollocs - My personal opinion on this, is that their AC/Concealment/DR all combined makes it very tough for a fighter to take down. If the DR could some how be lowered, or the AC bumped down maybe this could help?
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As a player of a pure spellcaster (Darthirae) and a pure fighter (Rottie), I think I have a reasonably balanced perspective on the spellcaster vs fighter "debate". And it's this: if you want to cry about unbalanced classes, the place where AD&D 3.5 completely falls down is in neither wizards nor fighters. It's the "CODzilla" - the "Cleric or Druid" superbuilds: very high HP, good BAB, spellcasting in armor, along with death spells, and for druids, gross out transforms. Order of the Stick has a number of cartoons making fun of the imbalance.
Insofar as complaints about wizards being able to solo where fighters can't, I simply do not see that being the case. Darthi has been stuck ever since her creation buffing fighters. She can temporarily disable an enemy, but can't finish anything off. Originally, I wanted to make her a conjurer, but the absurd XP penalties for summons is simply too great, assuming her spawns can win at all. I've had occasional wins, but largely, her soloing consists of invisible CNR collection - to the point where she is now simply in the habit of walking around invisible everywhere.
Rottie, on the other hand, is able to comfortably solo, getting 2,000 to 3,000 XP a pop cleaning out 2 1/2 levels of the Red Lights plus the topside (not to mention 300-500 True in profit each time he does so). He is also making use of the alchemy rules to make stink bombs which are surprisingly effective at the low to mid levels, bull's strength potions, and has more dusts than he knows what to do with.
In fact, if you look at it from a neutral point of view, the real advantage a wizard like Darthi has, is in NON-soloing. A 9th level fighter can contribute basically nothing to a team averaging level 20, but a 9th level wizard can still add a few welcome buffs, and tag along invisibly with a pocket full of heal-moderate potions. It's not exactly "kiting", because she does contribute (and have saved more high level PCs's asses than I think even they realize), but it also lets her get all that XP that she missing out by being unable to solo.
(I would also say that one reason why wizards are more powerful in NwN than they are in PnP is because the spawns are so predictable: when you know exactly what to prepare for each specific area, it makes your spell selection choices far easier.)
But my final comment is this... why exactly do you care what the balance is? I don't. This is a RP server. My third PC is the model of broken inefficiency. I've been trying to level him up to 4th before "introducing" him, but because he can't wear armor, he's already died 7 times, mostly in one-on-one duels against kobolds. But that doesn't make any difference. He's fun to play anyway. And will be more so when he makes his big RP debut.
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*Taps Steve on the shoulder* Mind your word usage...
(and have saved more high level PCs's BUTTS than I think even they realize)
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*Taps Steve on the shoulder* Mind your word usage...
I was referring to their "donkeys", which is what all those high-STR fighters really are to Darthi, at least in carrying weighty goods.
*rolls bluff check*
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@Steve what level is Darthi? I ask because the imbalance does not really show it self until higher levels (18+). And of course it is in the higher levels where your PC will spend the majority of its life, of course there are the few out there that have stayed a low to mid level for years and years, but I am really addressing the general population. Believe me when Darthi gets up to high levels she will be smoking areas and the fighters around her will be clean up crew (that is if her build is not broken).
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As long as we are on the topic (and anybody cares) here is my take on the relative power of the classes in Layo at the higher levels.
1. Druid
2. Sorcerer
3. Wizard
4. Cleric
5. Monk
6. Paladin
7. Barbarian
8. Ranger
9. Rogue
10. Fighter
11. Bard
This of course is soloing and single class. Nothing beats a Fighter, Wizard team in my mind.
Now the list would be completely different if we ranked classes based on their relative fun to play. :)
However, don't flame me on the topic.
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@Steve what level is Darthi? I ask because the imbalance does not really show it self until higher levels (18+). And of course it is in the higher levels where your PC will spend the majority of its life, of course there are the few out there that have stayed a low to mid level for years and years, but I am really addressing the general population. Believe me when Darthi gets up to high levels she will be smoking areas and the fighters around her will be clean up crew (that is if her build is not broken).
Admittedly, Darthi herself has not gotten up to the ability to cast 9th level spells, but as she works well in higher level groups, she's seen the power dynamics. And honestly, I still don't see what you are talking about.
Take Vrebel and Tralek, a fighter/combat-spellcaster team. They don't keep track of kills Legolas and Gimli style, but if I had to guess, they'd be about even. Tralek makes use of his PWK, but as those are 9th level, his supply is limited. So it falls to Vrebel to do a huge amount of the combat, while Tralek uses a sword as well, attacking from the sides. He keeps his high power spells in reserve for safety.
A lot of the success is also a product of their partnership. Vrebel will charge, try to arrange himself as the chief aggressor, until he is surrounded on all sides, which allows Tralek to use his PWK most efficiently. And safely. Soloing, Tralek would have to be both bait and executioner, which is dangerous even with Premonition up, since a single tag will abort a spell.
I guess what you are not seeing is the limited nature of the spells you get as a wizard. Sure, you have a great weapon, but your ammo is extremely limited. You have to be constantly concerned about when to use your highest power spells, because you don't get any more for a long time. I've had situations where Darthi has run out, and times when she died because she was saving a spell for something -really- bad. And the rest delays only go up as you gain in level.
And that doesn't even account for the Breach on Hit that the Screeching Keepers of the Broken Branch and the Earth Gensai, use. Or the dispel golems in the Deep. All which strip a mage of all their protection. (The last time she died, Tralek died right alongside her, while Vrebel hadn't even been scratched.) Or the No Magic Zones, like in the rift and Misted, the numerous No Rest zones, or the wild magic areas, one of which turned Darthi into a chicken.
But really, if you think playing an arcane spellcaster is a total cakewalk, I'd encourage you to try it out yourself. It never hurts to see the other side of the fence.
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Heh, part of J's argument is from seeing and playing with some folks that play high-level spellcasters very efficiently, from maximizing stats and feat builds, to figuring out that perfect spell combo to clean up a group of monsters. I have also played a pure spell-caster and a couple of fighters. My 20th level sorcerer could solo far more than either of my fighters when they hit 20th. I'm not going to divulge the spell-combos I used or what are currently some of the most useful combos available, but suffice it to say, there are only two things that held my sorcerer back from a full-magic area: Not having a high enough DC on her death spells, or SR/magic-immunity.
Of course, I whole-heartedly subscribe to the general axiom of combat RP: "He who has the most hit-points wins." And yeah, I've seen sorcerers (and of course clerics) with more HPs than fighters.
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Thank Milty :) once again very eloquent.
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@Steve
It's generally recognized that melee classes are better than casters at low-medium level... and that's really not the point of the thread. Beginning somewhere in the late teens early twenties, casters can solo groups that melee classes can't take one-on-one; I don't think anybody is really disputing that, the disagreement is whether that's a problem and what to do about it if it is.
And that doesn't even account for the Breach on Hit that the Screeching Keepers of the Broken Branch and the Earth Gensai, use. Or the dispel golems in the Deep. All which strip a mage of all their protection.
Sure, these things are deadly... but they're even more deadly to fighters than to casters. A caster can face dispell-on-hit creatures from a distance, and generally are much less affected by them than melee classes. An number of times I've seen parties get dispelled, and the fighters (who are up at the front), go down in seconds, but the casters hanging back have enough time to recast or use a scale, or a potion of invisibility, or just cast some spells and kill the things.
Or the No Magic Zones, like in the rift and Misted, the numerous No Rest zones, or the wild magic areas, one of which turned Darthi into a chicken.
And, playing Drexia, I've loved those places. Unfortunately, the few areas where melee classes can excell only go so far, and some of them (the new thunder peaks), would not be managable without casters.
I agree with you completely that trying to "balance" classes is a futile effort - making the world a little kinder to melee classes is another matter. I am not a fan of the "balanced party," or making most areas encourage them. I love fighting with whoever I happen to find through RP at that particular time, and it really bugs me that to get xp for Drexia I have to find people of certain classes to party with (and I count myself lucky I have a few people who are often on-line who are generous with their time to help my characters out). My favorite mode of adventuring is small groups - 2-3 people, and I really really wish that there were more areas of appropriate difficulty that also gives xp for level 20+ meleers to travel like that. I can think of plenty of spots that Drexia and a similar level caster could go to get xp (although in general the caster has to be level 25 for Drexia to be able to contribute), but very very few for melee characters (and none that are very big, or that give as much xp as places Drexia could go with a caster). Yes, this is an RP world, and in general I don't mind that my character does not have very much power relative to other classes... but sometimes it gets frustrating how little she can do without casters help, and how little she can contribute in places where high DR are standard.
I realize that I know nothing about game design/balancing, and that every change to make things doable for small, non-balanced, non-omptimized groups is probably an invitation for xp farming by those who like to travel in bigger balanced optimized groups... So I'm not suggesting by any means that there's an easy fix, nor do I mean to critisize the people who have put a lot of hard work into building the creatures and areas that are currently in the game. But I do think it at least needs to be acknowledged how wide the gap between classes ability to deal with those areas is.
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Tralek is just one example. Some may not be there yet, but wizards and sorcerers are most likely the most powerful classes. I have seen what they can do and they are not just limited to PWK, they have pretty powerful summons to take the hits until the player can find the combination of what defensive and offensive spells to use. Epic mages can use epic ward which bump their DR long enough where they can run in, while hasted, and throw tons of spells such as thunderclap that knock bad guys down, and then PWK them so there's maybe one, two, or three left, and then finish those off with a Wail or Bracar's storm.
Fighters? Well, they get up there to take the hits but by the time they get a round of attacks off, all the enemies are dead. But when I am with a mage that kills all the enemies off before I get to them, I try to remember that they're lowering the risk of me dieing in hand to hand combat.
I think this topic is so touchy now because we're paying too much attention to power building and leveling instead of just playing the game and having fun. I don't remember anything in the past that analyzes the server so much to where it points out all the flaws which can make the game seem unfair and not fun. I don't mind playing a mage-dependent character, and I do appreciate wizards/sorcerers for supplying the magic that allows me to go out into the higher-leveled areas and stay alive.
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@Steve
It's generally recognized that melee classes are better than casters at low-medium level... and that's really not the point of the thread. Beginning somewhere in the late teens early twenties, casters can solo groups that melee classes can't take one-on-one; I don't think anybody is really disputing that, the disagreement is whether that's a problem and what to do about it if it is.
They are more powerful on this server specifically because of rules designed to highlight the differences. I was rereading Conan the Barbarian recently, and noticed that a lot of his tactics would have been considered "luring" by Layo rules.
But even then, I'll be happy to match my munchkineering against anybody's. While, you are right that in the mid-20s, wizards are more powerful, the deadliest classes in the end are the fighters.
Vrebel, for instance, has the ability (depending on what he's buying) to be the deadliest PC vs monsters in the game. At level 32, his Native 18 STR, bought up 8 times to 26, plus 4 levels of Great Strength (plus the other reqs he can get as a fighter), will qualify him to buy Devastating Critical (the fighter's answer to PWK). Before any STR mods from rings, every time he crits with anything, the victim will have to make a Fort save vs DC 41 or die. Given that he has Great Cleave and improved crit, I can easily see him wade into a group of Trollocs, and cut down half with a single swipe. And he'll get to do that constantly. With everything. Always on. Magic area or not.
Or Razerem (or other Duelist), with any kind of decent INT bonus, including INT increasing items, will have a AC in the 50s. (Or maybe higher.) Simply on account of Canny Defense allowing epic duelists x2 their INT bonus to add to their AC.
Or some paladins, who, with great smiting, can get a minimum of 400 HP damage in a single blow.
Now please understand, I'm not accusing either of these players of being power gamers. Buying STR for your fighter is not only efficient, it's in character. But if your enjoyment of the game revolves around the power of your PC, know that at the very end, wizards are not as powerful as you might think.
Sure, these things are deadly... but they're even more deadly to fighters than to casters. A caster can face dispell-on-hit creatures from a distance, and generally are much less affected by them than melee classes.
My experience has been different. Melee classes have armor, undispellable enchantments, and massive HP. That usually wins out. But that is generally in mixed parties.
Yes, this is an RP world, and in general I don't mind that my character does not have very much power relative to other classes... but sometimes it gets frustrating how little she can do without casters help, and how little she can contribute in places where high DR are standard.
Actually, with Rottie's higher levels in mind, I do have some suggestions:- Create "moderate" and "high level" equivalents to the magic potions and other things fighters can use at low levels. I'd love to be able to craft an "Alchemists Inferno" potion that put a flame on a weapon for several hours. Or an equivalent to some of the higher level spell effects, achieved non-magically.
- Consider a different form of nerfing Devastating Crit, rather than the current all-or-nothing approach. Allow it at lower levels, but decrease the DC a bit.
- Add more defenses to insta-kills - but not permanent ones. I'd love a Gem of Lifesaving (that a nonspellcaster could make) that would deflect an instant magic death effect, but ruin the gem in the process. That would significantly decrease the "have to have a spellcaster to go there" effect for melee types.
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the deadliest classes in the end are the fighters.
I'd agree if we were on any other world where fighters could easily get their hands on items that grant permanent mind-attack immunity, death attack immunity, freedom, and big save boosters, that they would be the most powerful (mechanically) in the end. However, even the fighters that have gotten their hands on some of these things in Layo discover that you can't wear all of them at once, not to mention wearing these items take away from ability boosting items. A 35th level pure fighter with dev crit and all the buffs he can give himself against a fully buffed 35th level wizard/sorc/cleric/druid will get creamed on Layo. A single high level mind-affecting spell, thunderclap, or will-save vs death attack will do the trick. Without significant ranks in Spellcraft or some strangely high wisdom with will boosting feats (and even then), fighters just don't have the will-save to compete with a mage's spell DCs, and most don't have the reflex save to cut it either. And since a mage can hit the fighter before the fighter can even reach the mage, and use greater sanctuary so that the fighter can't even see the mage coming... you get the picture.
I won't argue with you that a dev crit fighter could potentially be a better monster killer than a mage, but without mage buffs, the fighter-types on Layo (with the exception of the paladin, perhaps) just don't have the saves to keep up with the spell DCs of epic mages and monsters.
Of course, all this is just to debate the manners in which you can "munchkin" out the full killing potential of a class. Ycleption and Lord Dark touched on what has already been mentioned in this thread, which is that we don't want to build encounters to cater to the most efficient builds and party combos, and that it can be fun to play the imbalances in the classes. I'm still in favor of making the epic mage a little more party-reliant, but I don't think the way to do that (for Layo) is to give fighters more access to magical gear and goods than is already IG. I think it's perfectly fine that there are areas which require mage/cleric buffs, just as there are areas that prevent the use of magic. If you want to visit those places (and not every place is like or should be like this), part of doing so is finding the right party.
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A 35th level pure fighter with dev crit and all the buffs he can give himself against a fully buffed 35th level wizard/sorc/cleric/druid will get creamed on Layo.
I won't argue with you that a dev crit fighter could potentially be a better monster killer than a mage, but without mage buffs, the fighter-types on Layo (with the exception of the paladin, perhaps) just don't have the saves to keep up with the spell DCs of epic mages and monsters.
OK, so now Layo is not only not a RP server, or a mere PvM adventure server, it's a PvP server? I beg to differ. If you want to speak to effectiveness, PvM is where it is at, and a Fighter can more than hold his own when he gets into the mid to high 30s. And even when talking PvP, I really don't think you can rank classes against each other like that, because it is simply too easy for people to be taken by surprise.
I'd agree if we were on any other world where fighters could easily get their hands on items that grant permanent mind-attack immunity, death attack immunity, freedom, and big save boosters, that they would be the most powerful (mechanically) in the end. However, even the fighters that have gotten their hands on some of these things in Layo discover that you can't wear all of them at once, not to mention wearing these items take away from ability boosting items.
But that hardly matters, since there is no monster in the game that threatens all those sorts of attacks. Some do mind attacks, some do death attacks, some do knockdown (which kills mages as well), but they usually have one thing - and if you have the item, you aren't affected. And if you don't, you don't go there.
And my goodness, Fighters should have -some- weakness, or else there is no reason to ever play a Monk - which also rival Mages when you get into the mid to upper 20s.
But clearly you must have struck a chord there, Milton, given the number of Thanks you are getting. I personally don't see how the success or failure of any other PC affects me at all, but some people appear to be frustrated, so something should be done. Just don't make it nerfing a class. Apparently there aren't enough challenges for high level fighters, so that should be fixed. (Really though? Really?? Those evil monks (forget the name) have absurdly high level saves and can really be only taken down by tough fighters. Is that not a challenging area?)
I guess when Darthi can solo like Rottie can, I might start thinking there is something to this. But until then, I'm really not seeing it. I get the sneaking suspicion that this isn't a complaint about relative class power at all - but rather XP (or the lack of it) at high levels. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
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Getting off topic again.
Lets stop talking about builds and get back to what can be done for the target audiance we are talking about
25+ non casters, need a few areas, simple as that.
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OK, so now Layo is not only not a RP server, or a mere PvM adventure server, it's a PvP server?
I didn't know we were discussing server styles. I thought we were just discussing the relative power of the classes.
and a Fighter can more than hold his own when he gets into the mid to high 30s
Jrizz has a fighter that is there, and he can't (at least not against a monster group appropriate to his level and not without mage buffs). I believe that was what started this thread.
since there is no monster in the game that threatens all those sorts of attacks.
I can think of quite a few that threaten at least two, and several that threaten all (death attacks, mind attacks, movement attacks), heh. Especially when we're talking about CR 25+ creatures. Besides, it's not usually that one creature can do all three, but that the group of enemies use various types of debilitating attacks, so you can't target one guy and get rid of the threat.
Getting off topic again.
Lets stop talking about builds and get back to what can be done for the target audiance we are talking about
25+ non casters, need a few areas, simple as that.
I'm not sure if that's really what this thread is about, getting more areas for non-casters, but as J started it, he can confirm or deny this. Personally, rather than making more areas that cater to/rely on certain classes, I'd like to make the current areas more friendly to the full gamut of party possibilities. Perhaps having more than one way a set of enemies can be defeated (i.e. there is an ancient trap that can be reactivated to kill all the monsters in a room; a group of warriors can beat down the monsters the old fashioned way; the center of the room has a crystal that channels the Al'Noth and when the right spell(s) is cast, it rains down lightning and fries all the enemies and maybe even friendlies that are too close.)
but rather XP (or the lack of it) at high levels. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Agreed and agreed.
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So just to give a little example I took my 31st level melee PC into Sharawood. Now Sharawood is something like a level 15 to 20 area I think. Wren is a good build (barbarian/fighter/rogue) with a good balance of AC, HP, DR, and Damage. I have seen wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids all at 18th level completely own Sharawood and the cave, solo. Wren almost got killed by the first group in the cave. If not for terrifying rage he would have died. I think this should lay to rest the balance between casters and melee and things they can do issues.
But really I am with Milty. I dont want to see areas that are solo areas for fighters. What I want to see is a stop to high level areas being solo-able to casters or easily done by caster groups. It was stated somewhere above in this thread (or the "what I want from Layo" thread) that the best way to do that is the have nasties in every group that just wont fall to mass death spells, stun spells, domination spells. Heck I would love to see those types of spells make some of the bad guys stronger, faster, and really mad at who cast them. Some bad guys that you just have to cut down with damage spells, blades, arrows, and fists. Then a good group mix will be needed to deal with them.
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So just to give a little example I took my 31st level melee PC into Sharawood. Now Sharawood is something like a level 15 to 20 area I think. Wren is a good build (barbarian/fighter/rogue) with a good balance of AC, HP, DR, and Damage. I have seen wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids all at 18th level completely own Sharawood and the cave, solo. Wren almost got killed by the first group in the cave. If not for terrifying rage he would have died. I think this should lay to rest the balance between casters and melee and things they can do issues.
Sharawood should be CR25. Anyone with a mass disorientation spell (read: all casters) can flatfoot those weak-willed fighters and go to town on them.
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Sharawood scales by level, so I think it's inaccurate to say it's any given CR, or level range.
That said, I think it is a fairly representative area of where the problem comes in - in my experience there, Wren has done better there than any other melee character I've seen, by virtue of terrifying rage, so I think it speaks a lot that even he, at level 31 has difficulty.
Should the area be made "easier" overall? I don't really think so. It's a fun little area if I have a 25+ caster with me. Would I like to see parallel areas where things don't have high DR and maybe have high SR and death immunity? Absolutely.
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So just to give a little example I took my 31st level melee PC into Sharawood. ... Wren almost got killed by the first group in the cave. If not for terrifying rage he would have died. I think this should lay to rest the balance between casters and melee and things they can do issues.
What it says is that the Sharawood cave is an area that is filled with anti-fighter types: rogues who have massive sneak attack damage can tear a fighter apart if they swarm them. Rottie used to get in major trouble in the Red Lights because of the exact same thing. And the Sharawood caves are filled with low-WIS Rogues which does make them much easier for magicians to take on.
Of course, if you get just one more fighter to fight side-by-side with in the tunnels, to stop the sneak attack damage, the cave becomes much more manageable. Or you can solo in a place where monsters don't have massive sneak attack swarms. Or manage sneak attacks better, by standing where a monster can see you, and dispatching it quickly before the next (hearing the commotion) arrives.
I dont want to see areas that are solo areas for fighters. What I want to see is a stop to high level areas being solo-able to casters or easily done by caster groups.
In other words, not only should mages be weaker than fighters at the low and mid-range levels, you want them nerfed to be weaker than fighters at the high levels as well. And by nerfed, you mean above and beyond the nerfing they already suffer from no-magic areas, wild magic areas, and areas where the antagonists already have massive saves, all places right now where mages can't solo today, but your PC can.
Well, OK. That's one request. Great if you hate magicians, I suppose, though it gives your PC no direct benefit on the powergaming side of things. And it's not something I would request for Rottie.
However, not to be entirely unsympathetic, I will say that in my own PnP game, I play with the magic rules quite a bit. Places of power of Gods make enemy God's spell power decrease. This also includes priests of nature Gods (my game has no "druids" per se) who travel into mechanized areas, have their (translating into D&D terminology) "spell DC" decrease. And there are "low magic" zones, where magician DC is lowered. If that was implementable in Layo, that would be fun - especially as an alternative to the all-or-nothing No Magic zones that are presently the rule.
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@Steve - Nope shara cave is not filled with rogues it is filled with fighters with +6 weapons crazy high damage and very high ACs. Dont get me wrong if one of them was able to make its saves against the caster combos it would cut that caster down in one round. But very very few times can they save vs all the combo spell sets and then most of the time the caster is already hasted and has a invisi/GS/some escape spell ready. When a fight goes bad for a fighter class... well it is harder to get away when you are knee deep in bad guy.
Also you are way way off on your nerfed statement about mages. I am saying dont touch them just make some of the bad guys resistance to quick magical demise. Make some them so that you have to get dirty to kill them.
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Sharawood should be CR25. Anyone with a mass disorientation spell (read: all casters) can flatfoot those weak-willed fighters and go to town on them.
It's not CR25.
Sharawood scales by level, so I think it's inaccurate to say it's any given CR, or level range.
To a point, but the creature CR doesn't advance. It's geared toward a certain range, however.
Not saying what it is, but feel free to guess. ;)
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18? :p
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Nope shara cave is not filled with rogues it is filled with fighters with +6 weapons crazy high damage and very high ACs.
I stand corrected. I thought they were "bandits". But you would know.
Also you are way way off on your nerfed statement about mages. I am saying dont touch them just make some of the bad guys resistance to quick magical demise. Make some them so that you have to get dirty to kill them.
Right. Which is exactly what I said. You want it so that mages, who presently have places they can solo (just as Fighters have places where only they can solo), have no places where they can solo.
Personally, I don't like soloing myself. I always like working in teams better. But if soloing is going to be something some PCs can do, then all of them should be able to - at least somewhere.
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@steve only in the low to mid levels are there really places that fighters can solo. What we are talking about is high level areas. It is in high level areas that the balance issue really shows itself. I thought this was made clear already. So to recap, in the low to mid level areas the power gap bewteen melee classes and caster classes is not very wide. At high levels is when the power gap gets very wide.
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Heh. Here's my honest suggestion jrizz. Plan on working about couple of hours a day for about a week, and go into the module, take every area over CR 17, and rebuild the spawn sizes so they are never larger then 3 creatures.
It's really not that hard. Pitch it to Dorg, he may actually go for it.
I hopefully don't have to explain how many problems this will fix that have come up over and over and over again for years. Get rid of the mob-spawn server and you get rid of all the unfair aspects that come with it. Sorry I didn't do it myself folks... but come on now, I was slinging DC 44 weirds and DC 42 claps... and let's face it, it was all about me, my secret shops, and my overall radness around all the melee noobs. Like you rizzo!
O.o ....... :o ........:(
:D:D:D
Heh, miss you guys. I hope everyone is doing well. And my suggestion is serious. I could go on for a while as to how it irrefutably helps in resolving all the issues with epic balance (and pace... *cough cough*)... but hopefully your balance brains will start clicking on their own.
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So make areas for high level melee artists are able to solo at, no need to punish the casters if they have been able to solo some places for now.
And to be clear, it is never without danger when a caster solos, low HP, low AC. Even one stunning fist from say a desert giant of Dregar is fatal.
So make new areas, OR make some areas more doable for warriors.
And no, Chakar can't solo the screeching keepers, he'll die if he tries to.
Sure, he can take some of them down with say a power word DC 32, but most of them survive, and the casters of theirs? no way he could kill them with any spells or swords.
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Well I really like what Dorg did with the Trollocs in this last update. They are still harder then heck but they are more spread out and the new fighter ones are a great addition.
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What stinks is that fighters had the dead magic area near thunder peaks, and then because a fighter could do what a caster could...seemed things changed. Maybe there was another reason, but the word on the street was that the change came because fighters were soloing the area.
In my opnion this is not a low magic world by any means.
In a world where a mage has a choice of if they want to go off on their own, or with a big group, either way, they will be able to find something they can kill, so if a caster really wants to (not necessarily a mage, most casters though) they can achieve level 30, with little problems going out on their own soloing.
A fighter, could not get to 30 in the same amount of time, no way, it's impossible, theres no instant death magic for fighters, and fighters cannot travel without a party, due to having to get involved up close and taking damage, they need magic for the weapons to do much, and a healer usually, among other spells etc.
After epic levels, and where fighters could once go, with or without a group, has completely been changed, so that casters must be taken along too.
A level 30 fighter....who has seen a level 30 fighter go solo for exp recently? Well I can find one spot to get 64 exp a kill. But spending 20mins going through an area for about 1200 exp, does not really motivate me at all.
Not to mention theres still a risk of dying for that measly amount.
I guess what I'm basically saying is, a caster can get to level 30 on their own, no way a fighter could do that anymore. And once at those levels, good luck taking your fighter off to solo, anywhere.
As Jrizz stated, low magic item world, but far off from being a low magic world - give us something to dig our swords + axes into. please.
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Maybe there was another reason, but the word on the street was that the change came because fighters were soloing the area.
It's usually not a good idea to take the "word on the street" as the gospel truth. The "street" has been known to get its facts mixed up. ;)
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Well I really like what Dorg did with the Trollocs in this last update. They are still harder then heck but they are more spread out and the new fighter ones are a great addition.
I'm glad you like them, though I didn't add anything. I just tweaked what already existed.
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What stinks is that fighters had the dead magic area near thunder peaks, and then because a fighter could do what a caster could...seemed things changed. Maybe there was another reason, but the word on the street was that the change came because fighters were soloing the area.
Sorry to disagree with you on this one ;) but the peaks got tweaked due to a huge multi week multi GM quest event.
But as to fighters soloing the peaks, well as I was a GM during the hey day of the peaks I will say that they were heavily abused by a number of players.
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But as to fighters soloing the peaks, well as I was a GM during the hey day of the peaks I will say that they were heavily abused by a number of players.
I was playing alot with my fighter during this time and was soloing this area. I don't see how this is abusing though. This was the only place I could soloing without instantly dying or get zero XP for my efforts. Spellcasters can soloing in all of the rest of the world and they are doing so. Is that abusing?
The fighters that was soloing the area did it because there were the only place they could go. Ofcourse id rather go in a group and mostly I did that. Also the most fun places is in the existing magic areas. However when no mages/clerics are around the option were crafting, sit on a bench, go to areas that gives zero xp or soloing the thunderpeaks.
I can see the point of thinking... hey! that fighter are soloing that area all day long. Well he had no other place to go to so atleast he had one area that he could have some fun in.
Also Thunderpeaks was an awesome place to go to and Kudos to Agaetis for that :-)
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Sorry to disagree with you on this one ;) but the peaks got tweaked due to a huge multi week multi GM quest event.
But as to fighters soloing the peaks, well as I was a GM during the hey day of the peaks I will say that they were heavily abused by a number of players.
I know about the DM events that "changed" the peaks, which also solved the problems with which you are talking about when you were a DM. I just fired an employee because she broke the rules, but the truth is I was going to fire her for another reason within the week.
I used one avenue to get to the same ending result that I desired, without having to let everyone know the other, real reason.
Sorry for the conspiracy theory! hehe
@dorg I took the word on the streets because it came from the people making the changes.
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Sorry to disagree with you on this one ;) but the peaks got tweaked due to a huge multi week multi GM quest event.
Well... it got tweaked several times. Basically, whenever one of my areas saw someone, or a lot of someones, soloing it - an argument was made to make it harder.
Sometimes I'd present the argument when I thought I'd made an honest mistake - and I did make mistakes, in both directions. Sometime I'd not add in an AC factor, etc etc.
The peaks got serious heat after the first two weeks for the multitude of players rolling through there. A few of us argued that it was good for the server. A lot argued that it was imbalanced. After a while I will honestly admit that I simply jumped on the bandwagon and said whatever, and made it the same rhythm as everything else. And that's fast paced, high magic mobs... which will *always* require spells. Heck, I even ended up going in there to place bludgeoning DR on everything just to stop one single monk soloist.
Was it one person ruining it for everyone? I honestly don't think it was... anymore that then a group of people limiting an entire population for the balance of one. It's always been like this. And I think that it's been a difficult road for Layo in that regard. So much attention has always put towards making sure things are tempered - so much attention is put towards *every single player*.... and this is a blessing and a curse. I've never seen another server where the DMs felt such an urge and, seriously... a peer-pressured responsibility to check on every player in such a way. And the intent behind this shows phenomenal management and standards... you're supposed to be making sure that everyone has fair attention from the team, you're supposed to making sure everyone has a fair shot at getting involved in mini or major plot, you're supposed to be making sure that everyone gets some guidance through example and leadership. And this manifests itself in several ways. One is that the playerbase ends up having an extremely high status quo in regard to quality of playstyle and roleplay. The standards are basically guided every hour of every day. On other servers which maintain a lax 'whatever' mentality in regard to the quality of their playerbase... they let the shooting anti-stars disrupt the tempo and fade away, they never involve them on plots, and they basically keep an adventuring company while the rest of the server reads up on the plots. And on the plus side, you get balance and a server layout that is set for what they deem is the right way to play. On the down side you get people running around without a wink of atmosphere to them, and they're twenty times the level of where the adventuring company is. One issue that Layo has found in such a profound sense of motherly 'tending to the flock'... is that staff members allow themselves full exposure to all the highs and lows instead of just ignoring the lows. This really does manifest itself as people end up taking personal offense to things they feel harm what they've contributed to and tried to build.
Which way is better or worse? Heck... if I knew then I'd have had more luck with my own server years ago. I will say that the way that this has manifested itself on Layo in regard to balance is perhaps an extreme to avoid later down the road. Things ended up overbalanced, and we ended up creating our own pace... and it was way way overshot. I mean... things are *hard* on Layo. And it has really streamlined a certain kind of group. There's no odd pairings of the random classes... it's the same requirement of 'oh, you want to go to this place with the CNR?... yeah, you need the x, y, and z... and then all the randoms pairings are basically left to latch onto x,y, and z for anything that has received the full service scrutiny for balance.
Do you end up with a better playerbase under this general model of motherly oversight though? Sure. So heck if I know what's better or worse.
But on the dead magic... my contention for a long time was that no matter how easy, or how soloed, the peaks were, the pace was so impressively slow compared to other areas, where haste and mass-effect spells were basically requisite for travel and thus added a huge multiplier to pace of progression, and where there were mobs of 8 instead of small groups of two or three... that it really wasn't changing the tempo of progression at all. The prevailing opinion disagreed.
Hope this wasn't too trollish. :)
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But on the dead magic... my contention for a long time was that no matter how easy, or how soloed, the peaks were, the pace was so impressively slow compared to other areas, where haste and mass-effect spells were basically requisite for travel and thus added a huge multiplier to pace of progression, and where there were mobs of 8 instead of small groups of two or three... that it really wasn't changing the tempo of progression at all. The prevailing opinion disagreed.
Hope this wasn't too trollish. :)
Everyone that have tested to play an spellcaster lvl 17 and higher and also a fighter character lvl 17 and higher knows that after around lvl 15 the progression for the spellcaster will be something like twice as fast. This because the spellcasters can hasted throw their massive area spells and get huge number of XP in short time on their own.
When fighters finally got the same chanse up in the peaks.. Not that easy as for spellcasters.. working it slow.. killing one by one hacking through and not being hasted people are saying its something wrong with the area and that that shouldn't be doable. *shrugs*
I think thats unfair. Fine if the team don't wan't this server to be a place were you can soloing. But in that case almost every area were magic works should be shanged so that spellcasters can't soloing either. Mixed spawns with extremly high saves, high spellresistance and so forth..
Historically this servers have alot more high lvl spellcasters then fighter types. Due to Thunder peaks the playerbase becamed a little more balanced. I think that is a good thing :)
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On other servers which maintain a lax 'whatever' mentality in regard to the quality of their playerbase... they let the shooting anti-stars disrupt the tempo and fade away, they never involve them on plots,
I have seen this in action and it works. The power players/ grinders are just kept out of the factions, guilds, plots, item auctions, and ignored in most interactions. They top out and either leave the server or start new PCs and try to get involved instead of grinding.
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I have to say the placement is much better now and they are more resistant to spells. Much better with out the big groups bunched up together. :)
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Hi all.. I realize that I'm like a complete noob to the server, and have only 1 lousy 8th level fighter. I know that I've seen not even a 10th of the layonara world. But I would just like to say one thing after reading this entire thread.
I don't play RPG's. Not since my pen and paper/MUD days years ago. NWN was teh first one I'd bought and played and thats only because I trust and know the old d20 system thats been a mainstay of gaming since I got my first D&D boxed set when I was 10(I'm now 33).
I found this place by accident looking for single player mods and decided that it really looked like something I might sink my teeth into. I've come to enjoy my time on Layonara. I've met some of the BEST role players, nicest GM's, and I've really been on some great adventures with my character.
I've never been into magic using characters. The old hack and slash warrior of the ancient days was always my bread and butter and I enjoy it.
I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that there is an undercurrent among the playerbase(at least in this thread) that if you want to see your fighter character advance into superhigh levels and be able to explore solo.. you MUST be some kind of grinder/power player trying to ruin it for everyone.
I have a long way to go before Ragnar reaches anything near those levels.. right now I have plenty of places I can go solo around and build my player's skills up, but if I get to 20th level or above and that starts to fizzle, places where a 20th level fighter or above can go and receive decent experience in times when a group might not be available all the time start to dry up. I can see where this would be frustrating to a few people.
If there are indeed areas that high level mages can solo, (and apparently there are or this thread wouldn't have started) wouldn't it seem proper that there be at least a few areas where high level fighter types are able to solo?
Solo players are not all pariahs trying to destroy the world.. some of us might just want to whittle away an hour or so before or after work and don't want to always jump into a long drawn out RP trek that will take 4-6 hours to complete, and spend the rest of the time crafting.
This is one of the closest watched and maintained game worlds I've seen. The GM's work really really hard to ensure that all the players have a good time, promote grouping, etc.. but as much as RP and groups are the focus.. its not possible all the time to have a group available and there SHOULD be at least a few places for high level solo fighters to go and have a reasonable expectation of making it out in one piece, while gaining significant experience for the task.
Is it really to much to ask there be certain areas that a fighter of high level can gain 3-5000 points per cycle through an area? The sewers, the vehl crypts, the roadside beasties close to hempstead and other areas.. these are all the places for the low level charcters such as myself.. which is really great.
But these areas will become moot to my character before to long. Already ogres, which put up a huge fight, but only give 48 experence to me are not worth the trouble of attacking.
Such areas could be dead magic zones, to prevent mages from exploiting them.. the beasties could scale from a minimum level range to keep out low level/noob grinders that would come and abuse them. Keep such areas FAR apart.. say one on the northern adn southern ends of mistone for example, where there are no convienient portals. This would force fighter types, should they want to solo, to take LONG TREKS just to get the areas involved, having to cross the continent. This will keep them to the roads where they will run into people, and encourage them to RP adn join up(its always more fun to group than solo IMO)
I completely understand that this server is geared towards high RP/group interactions and that is wonderful.. but just lumping all solo players into the powerplayer/grinder type seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Just my take on the whole thing.. please forgive my newbish interference.
SM