The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: akata on November 20, 2009, 08:56:48 AM
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Caster vs none caster, this is my view of balance between casters and none casters on Layonara, let me start of by saying that I don't think you can ever make them even in regards to soloing. Why? From the simple fact that soloing=crowd control.
This is the casters tools for it LORE: Encyclopedia of Spells (http://lore.layonara.com/Encyclopedia%20of%20Spells) and this the melee's tool LORE: Knockdown (http://lore.layonara.com/Knockdown)
that is of course rather bluntly put. Yes I left out devastating critical, from the simple fact that there isn't a player that has achieved the feat yet, secondly you can't get the feat till level 28 as a half-orc and 32 for races with a starting strength of max 18 in short meaning your utterly depend on caster or quests from 15ish and up. Going for quest then you likely won't make it in the nwn version, if you're lucky enough to travel with a caster regularly then it won't matter, you're character have access to the wards needed to survive
Some time ago (V3 I think) there was a much needed revamp of the spells in layonara, in general making the evocation school useful on epic levels again, and thereby making it possible for casters (mostly arcane casters) to be useful in a group without the use of instant death magic. I think it's time the same happened to the none-casters. The trick is.. how to do it with the least amount of work? Because let's face it, the team already got their hands full with the mmo. :D
So I put on my thinking cap, rework all spawns making them smaller as suggest hmm sure but would in my opinion make the world a boring place when you're in a group, and it sounds like a huge work load as well.
Even if I do agree that the mob spawns is the number one reasons none casters can't solo (or travel in groups without a caster). I'll give an example Angela my level 40 melee has a ac of 51 unbuffed and deals out hmm around 14d6+ enchantments and strength etc (when sneak attacking). so clearly one on one she can hold her own, against a mob.. no way. I can't even take her into the first area in the deep, dark elves and spiders at around CR 20, and that is even though I can raise her AC to 60ish put up a shadow shield to get 50% miss chance and immunity to necromantic spells and death magic as well as mind immunity (gear) and an improved evasion reflex save on 50+ all in all making her completely immune to their damage spells. The fact is that the 10 dark elf rogues will surround her and with 7 attacks per around from duel wield will roll enough 20ish to kill her. Not only that but the time and the items (scrolls, scales) is making the risk/cost vs. reward to great.
I don't want to see casters nerfed, the changes to the Screechings in the Great Forest was a good start, the amount of spells a caster has to use balance out the risk/cost vs. reward (In my opinion) but is only dealing with half of the problem, it balance out the spawns for the casters not the none caster. But if none-casters should be able to travel around without a caster (In my opinion they should be able to but leaving the decision in the hands of the team as I'm not the one that will have to dedicate the hours into it, that is needed) then there are really only two choices
1: redo all spawns made for level 17 and above
2: change items to reduce the difference between a buffed and unbuffed character.
The problem is that the current spawns on Layonara are all build for groups with a caster in them. Meaning a spawn build for level 20 is build assuming your none-caster have a +4 weapon, buffs on stats, immunities to mind spells and death wards (due to the lack of clerics, healing potions and so were made more potent reducing the need to travel with a cleric)
Since there already is items' adding to stats, granting immunities etc, then the logical step would be to up weapon and armors something like this.
Weapons (meaning melee range, gloves or whatever a none caster uses)
+0 raised to +1
+1 raised to +2
+2 raised to +4
+3 raised to +6
Armors (same here all types of armor)
+0 raised to +1
+1 raised to +2
+2 raised to +4
+3 raised to +6
This in effect completely removes the need for gwm/mv and makes the gear follow the curve that layonara's critters are assuming you have, since we haven't touched stats or immunities then a spawn is still going to be at the very least a huge challenge to any none caster. Now, for the people arguing that this won't make the problem of soloing better. Then you're completely right, on the other hand that is not what I'm trying to do, I'm trying to put balance between casters and none caster in regard to how the spawns are now on Layonara. Doing these changes will in my opinion give none-casters a fighting chance to do the same as casters can, Solo in a way where risk/cost is balance out with the reward or travel in a group without the need of a caster to ward them.
So for me balance comes down to this:
Should a player be able to solo?
if the balance between risk/cost vs. reward is fair yes
Should all classes at the very least have a fighting chance to do it then?
YES YES YES! Imo Layo's problem isn't that a caster can solo it's that a none caster can't
If your answer instead is no, players shouldn't be able to solo at all:
Added a few creatures to every spawn, give them 50+ in all saves, true sight, perm haste, immunity to mind spells and 1000+ hp. That will add a creatures your caster can't kill with spells but a buffed up melee can with the cost of a lot of healing
Another option is to do a complete remake of every single spawn, making them in a way that a none caster can deal with, but that will also mean you need to reduce their number or people who can group with a caster is going to fly though the xp chart at the speed of light.
In my opinion the best choice is to up gear as suggest in my post so it reflect the spawns as they are already build, it would also mean that your crafter no longer feels frustrated over the xxxxx hours he/she used perfecting a craft are in a mechanical sense useless since your fighter is better of getting a bronze weapon and have a gmw cast on it. It will push the balance between a caster and a none-caster closer to equal (casters would still hold the advantage)
Of course.. all this is assuming that the team have the time to make these changes :)
Feel free to comment, I'm looking forward to hearing it
~Akata
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Basically, and please tell me if I'm understanding this correctly, you're suggesting that we increase the enhancement of weapon and armors because you believe it will be easier to do than to readjust every spawn as a fix to allow non-casters to solo?
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I'm not going to comment on the idea itself, at least not right now, but it's important to point out that raising the enhancement on weapons and armors will also increase the level requirements for them as well.
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but then it can be brought down to the original value, with an item value reduction no?
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but then it can be brought down to the original value, with an item value reduction no?
In theory! It's not a precise system and kind of a pain to use, to be quite honest, in part because item values sometimes differ between toolset and game. It's only intended for special cases anyway. Point is, just an item-for-item replacement would be twice as much work as it seems because of this alone.
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Changing your AC/AB won't do anything akata. As you said, the rogues with 7 attacks eventually roll enough 20's to kill you.
Decrease spawn size to a max of 4. Think it through. Done deal.
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I agree in most of this. Realy the weapon and armor system is in some way broken. And remodelling the stats on them would make things more balanced.
But I don't think that making armours and swords better will make a big difference regarding making it possible for high lvl fighters to solo.
I'm sure that most fighters here don't ask for much but it would make a big difference to be able to take on a few challanges here and there in the world without being smashed instantly when you are on your own. I defently think that most areas should be impossible to solo if you are a fighter but as it is now for fighters there are pretty much nowere you can solo/kill a single creature and get a decent amount of xp for it if you are high lvl fighter. If you don't like rolling the dices against the soulmother for a few houndred xp then you need a spellcaster to buff you up and ward you and point you in the right direction.
One way to avoid redoing all the spawns on layo is to add small spawns, 2-3 creatures that are build in ways so fighters can handle them in the outer ranges in alot of areas. Challanging but doable. These can be picked of by sneaking rouges and tuff fighters whithout getting a whole mob of 10 creatures swarming you.
Also non magic areas. Maybe add 1-2 dungeons/caves that are non magic areas. These dungeons should be placed so most fighters and avery rouge could sneak/ get to them and test their skills in :) As many stated before the it should also be more challanges for rouges so maybe put som rooms with locks and areas in these caves/dungeons with traps and so forth..
Thunder Peaks was great but it doesn't need to be that grand.. just a few places to go to would make a huge different.. :)
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On balance between caster and non-caster, I agree with what Akata said first off, a caster will always be more powerful because their ability to control a crowd (via stun or kill, etc). This is the way it should be in my opinion. Does this create an inbalance? Yes it does. Do I see a problem with that? No I don't. Caster's use magic, and magic is very, very powerful; Fighter's don't have magic and must depend on their equipment, sword, armor and skill.
I like to close my eyes and picture being in that midevil time period, pick a book you've read or a movie you've seen (sadly the only two I can think of are Excalibur and Lord of the Rings) and try to get into the scene. Fighters can only swing those heavy swords so many times before they get tired, they get cut, bruised and must fight each enemy until that one enemy is dispatched. Magic though, overrides all this and is very special and powerful. A caster can study his enemy and find their weaknesses and exploit those weaknesses; they can call upon fire, ice, wind, water, acid, stone; they can kill and stun large groups; the list goes on...
I don't think Layo should be nerfed or changed to allow fighters to solo. To me that goes against all that is neverwinter nights and dungeons and dragons.
Fighters are a very powerful class. Although they may not be able to solo like a caster, when in a group they are the true heroes. Most of the serious adventures I"ve been on came down to the fighters up front cutting and slicing through the enemy and taking on enemies that a caster would not dare to tackle. The mages may help control the battle, but the fighters are the ones making most of the kills and keeping the group safe and moving forward.
I'm not a big fan of soloing. I think it's boring and it can be very scarry and dangerous.
I would like to see some better equipment for the fighters though. Maybe some +5 armor and weapon drops could be designed and put into the drop list; or maybe by crafting we could make +5 enhancments (ex: alchemy: make something like we have for silver and titanium, instead make it a combination of mithril ignots, emeralds and rubies to apply to a weapon to give it +5)(ex: enchanting: mithril, emeralds and rubies to make something to apply to armor to give it +5 like we have for elemental resistances).
I have no problem with redesigning certain areas to make them better suited to soloing non-casters or groups of non-casters. One place comes to mind is Vanovar. I was there about a month ago and it seemed like a nice big area, has a cave, etc., but the creatures there were fairly weak. You could redesign that area to put some quality ore in the cave and change the creatures in there to have very high SR, spell mantles, or very high saving throws etc.
My thoughts on this one
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Basically, and please tell me if I'm understanding this correctly, you're suggesting that we increase the enhancement of weapon and armors because you believe it will be easier to do than to readjust every spawn as a fix to allow non-casters to solo?
Yup, although I'll admit that soloing might be a "slight" exaggeration, at least not without taken a risk.
Changing your AC/AB won't do anything akata. As you said, the rogues with 7 attacks eventually roll enough 20's to kill you.
Decrease spawn size to a max of 4. Think it through. Done deal.
Decreasing spawn to max 4 does raise a other question.
XP compared to time spend online:
I'm here assuming that spawns currently are build to reflect the teams view of xp earned vs. risk. If you remove +50% of all spawns you'll need to look into the xp you get from them as well, Or script a system that place spawns compared to people in party. If you mean taken the same size spawn and just splitting them up into smaller groups in the same area (a la what was done to the screeching in the great forest)then that only increase the number of spells needed for a caster to solo.
*grins* I guess I could have saved the text and just written you down as in favor of redoing spawns :)
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Seasoned fighter types should have the ability to aquire +5 weapons without the need for gmw. It is their trade and their life blood. They shouldnt have to depend on a spellcaster to give them gmw to defeat the damage reduction you find on many higher level creatures.
One idea is give high level weapon crafters the ability to enchant adamantium and mithril. An enchanted adamantium sword would have an enhancement bonus of +4. An enchanted Mithril sword would have an enhancement bonus of +5.
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XP compared to time spend online:
I'm here assuming that spawns currently are build to reflect the teams view of xp earned vs. risk. If you remove +50% of all spawns you'll need to look into the xp you get from them as well, Or script a system that place spawns compared to people in party. If you mean taken the same size spawn and just splitting them up into smaller groups in the same area (a la what was done to the screeching in the great forest)then that only increase the number of spells needed for a caster to solo.
XP is based on CR of the creature killed vs. that of the killer/party. The encounter system does support variable size spawns, which is dependent on party size and level. I personally prefer a variable-sized spawn rather than one that always produces a fixed number of creatures regardless of other factors. Across the world, there are some places where the spawns are fixed and others where they are not.
Anyway, once again just tossing in some extra info without commenting on the idea(s). :)
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How about just plain old de-nerfing Dev Crit. I really dont see how Dev Crit is any different then a caster using wail, weird, or PWK. Dev Crit gives a chance to kill a lot of things that are in a group, wail, wierd, PWK all give a chance to kill a lot of things that are in a group.
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Yes I left out devastating critical, from the simple fact that there isn't a player that has achieved the feat yet, secondly you can't get the feat till level 28 as a half-orc and 32 for races with a starting strength of max 18 in short meaning your utterly depend on caster or quests from 15ish and up.
Kurn's working on that... ;)
And mages can solo. They just get yelled at for soloing. :D
Still, the variety of spells are such that every mage's specialty can be different. Annie for instance could NEVER solo because I specifically made her a defense caster, LG little brownie girl. Every one of her spells are a buff or illusion of some sort, and she has a wee little constitution, so those fighters are 100% necessary to keep her from being a little squishy spot on the floor. Practically harmless to monsters 1/4 her level one-on-one, but makes an army of frothing, belching, farting dwarves ready for Blood War 5. More effective than any spell she casts however, is her endless supply of Ale and Mutton. Those two are the best buffs a dwarf could ask for, like Popeye's Spinnach practically.
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I'm not going to comment on the idea itself, at least not right now, but it's important to point out that raising the enhancement on weapons and armors will also increase the level requirements for them as well.
I havent got any character past lvl 20 ( and only got yvale to 20 yesterday and thats since ive joined here) but i would like to know are there any armours/weapons/items that have a requirement over lvl 25 for every class? i think the highest ive seen for leather was 23 or around there and that was for either queen spider silk armour or ancient dire bear armour, and a yew tower shield i got at lvl 20, not sure what the lvl req was for it. So is that the high end "basic" gear i can look forward to? maxing my gear at say lvl 25, theres a 15 lvl void where we could have better items.
And dont start me on the druid class, oh my...i love my druid but when you go into say the rift and get smashed by one giant while ur in air elemental form is no fun, hold up ill drink my potion, oh , self using potions dont work here, hey but target ones do, oh wait, i cant use it, or bandages for that matter while shifted!!!! XX
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Been rather hesitant to suggest anything here... but here goes.
One thing regarding raising Armour enchantment bonus.
The BaseAttack of a lot of spawns here is exceptionally high.
Casters thrive simply because they have the ability to give themselves 75% concelament from hits, and a wonderous Damage resistance of 20 against all weapons below +5. ( Greater Stoneskin )
Melee builds... well... they have neither. Caster's arn't even supposed to be in the front lines, and yet they can amass more Damage Resistance and Hit dodging abilities than the fighters.
Now a small AC increase "would" give them a little better advantage. However, as Dorg mentioned, jumping from a +3 to a +6 is going to teeter the level requirement on the ridiculous scale. Mithril at +3 with its lovely /- DR is already in the top of the 20's. And Enchanted Mithril at it's +30 lvl Req... well.. say no more.
That said, I always thought it unsual that, for example, a wager thin set of Mithril clothing ( lvl 22 req. Mainly for mages and DEX builds ) would have the same amount of Damage Resistance as a set of thick Enchanted Mithril Half Plate.
Robes of Energy.. A wizard robe... with a +4 Soak 10 Damage on it, in comparison to Enchanted Mithril Full Plates +3 Soak 10.
Perhaps raising the Armour class is not the issue. Fighter's are bouncing around in massive, huge sets of thick armour... but not really receiving the damage resistance they deserve from it.
Sure... they won't care if they still get hit as often... but they'll care if it looks like their massive set of armour is being of some use.
So... after taking a peek.
Adamantium Half Plate Armour
Level 15 Req
+1 AC
+1 Soak 5 Damage Resistance.
+1 Soak 5.
Lets face it. At level 15... that is useless. It will soak 5 points of damage from... copper weapons?
Adamantium Full Plate
+1 AC
/-5 Slashing Resistance
+1 Soak 5 Damage Resistance
Okay... now thats a little better. The slashing resistance is of some use now.
My suggestion would be not to raise the Armour Class of the current armours, but to raise the Soak level of Resistance on them.
I'm not great with the mechanicals, but I believe this doesn't raise the level requirement up quite so much.
Let Platinum be... +2 Soak 5?
Raise the Adamantium to +3 Soak 5.... maybe?
And let Cobalt be +4 Soak 5?
As for Mithrils... make it Damage Resistance Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning /- 10... right across the board.
Alternatively, there are several items in the current loot drops which allow for Damage resistance. Archers, Swordsmans and Bludgeoning belts. Very handy items at low levels, though rather useless once your actually able to find one yourself ( in the high tier loot drops )
Introduce one or two loot drops, designed and usable by "Melee" builds only which grant a certain set of Damage Resistance, specifically Soak.
Something much like the Cloak of Vestements ( +5 Soak 5 Damage ) but with a lower level requirement.
I suggest the Soak damage, as when a Stoneskin is cast on the person, the abilities will not stack, and the highest amount of +to Soak will be used.
So yes. No need to alter Creatures stats at all, and no need to alter current weapons and armour ratings.
Raise the Soak amount on current craftable armour , or introduce one or two items usable only by Melee builds to compensate.
My few pennies right there. :)
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As for Mithrils... make it Damage Resistance Piercing/Slashing/Bludgeoning /- 10... right across the board.
I agree in making armours better but making Mithrill have damage resistance /-10 across the board is to strong. This because when this is stacked with damage reduction it will be redicilous.
Example a Pure caster or fighter/caster splitt that have greater stoneskin will ignore the first 30 points of damage. Lets say he is fighting foes that makes 35 in damage when they hit. He can take like 100 hits.
An Dwarven defender at lvl 32 will have 22 lvls in DD thats 15 damage reduction + 9 from epic damage reduction + 10 resistance from mithril.
Thats 34 points of damage that he will ignore. Pretty much immune to mele since he also is immune to sneak attacks. At lvl 40 he can shrug off 40 ponts of damage. Its not many creatures on Layo that deals 50+ damage whithout sneak so with his 800 HP he could do anything :)
You might think that what big of difference is the last 5 points.. 10 instead of 5? The difference is HUGE! The DD at lvl 32 that is fighting foes that dealing in average 40 points of damage can take almost twice as many hits. He looses 6 instead of 11 HP every time he gets hit. And the 32 lvl DD have like 600 HP so there wouldn't be many creatures that could kill him.
Armour with resistance in my opinion should never be higher then /-5. However the best epic armour with damage reduction could, and should have atleast 10 of damage reduction :)
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An Dwarven defender at lvl 32 will have 22 lvls in DD thats 15 damage reduction + 9 from epic damage reduction + 10 resistance from mithril.
Thats 34 points of damage that he will ignore. Pretty much immune to mele since he also is immune to sneak attacks. At lvl 40 he can shrug off 40 ponts of damage. Its not many creatures on Layo that deals 50+ damage whithout sneak so with his 800 HP he could do anything :)
You might think that what big of difference is the last 5 points.. 10 instead of 5? The difference is HUGE! The DD at lvl 32 that is fighting foes that dealing in average 40 points of damage can take almost twice as many hits. He looses 6 instead of 11 HP every time he gets hit. And the 32 lvl DD have like 600 HP so there wouldn't be many creatures that could kill him.
That is a naive way of looking at it, sure. First of all, I've aimed for something like this a long time and yes, a damage reduction build is powerful when surrounded by hordes of enemies or when AB is so high that AC doesn't matter.
However going for damage resistance requires heavy investment and basically makes you a one trick pony because of one serious flaw that melee characters of a tank archetype (DR builds) have - no CC. They have no way of keeping things hitting them, sure they can go in first, but after a few seconds the mob dissipates on your groupmembers and beyond KD there's nothing you can do.
So in this respect, every build is powerful is built to the extreme as per your example, however limiting your character like this is far from rewarding given the long pay-off period. That's also the reason why I think we've seen no Dev Crit yet, it's not worth limiting your character so severely for it.
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That is a naive way of looking at it, sure. First of all, I've aimed for something like this a long time and yes, a damage reduction build is powerful when surrounded by hordes of enemies or when AB is so high that AC doesn't matter.
However going for damage resistance requires heavy investment and basically makes you a one trick pony because of one serious flaw that melee characters of a tank archetype (DR builds) have - no CC. They have no way of keeping things hitting them, sure they can go in first, but after a few seconds the mob dissipates on your groupmembers and beyond KD there's nothing you can do.
So in this respect, every build is powerful is built to the extreme as per your example, however limiting your character like this is far from rewarding given the long pay-off period. That's also the reason why I think we've seen no Dev Crit yet, it's not worth limiting your character so severely for it.
Yea I doubt we will ever see an Dev crit on Layo.
I'm not sure I completely getting what you are saying sOulz, what do you mean they have no CC and having no chanse of keeping things hitting them?
Anyway the way I see it getting to the higher ends of damage reduction is the most powerfull thing for a mele fighter type. High AC is good but as Akata earlier stated she got an PC that have extremly high AC, especialy buffed due to the double int AC modifyer.. She will eventually get hurt and hit anyway because of all the 20s they will roll will tear her appart.
The more regular build for example pure fighter or fighter/rogue splitt have neither High AC or damage reduction. So I think that armours that could be for better bennefits for those types but that will not help DD would be more balanced.
Lets say the fighter have an 10 soak armour and also There could be items that grant /-5 resistance. Totaly he shrugs of 15 points of mele. This wan't be extremly powerfull but it would be helpfull. The 10 soak armour wan't help the DD but he can instead use an /-5 resistance armour.
This will prevent the DDs getting so extremly high mele toleration but still help the regular fighter types to stand a better chanse in battle :)
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Yea I doubt we will ever see an Dev crit on Layo.
I'm not sure I completely getting what you are saying sOulz, what do you mean they have no CC and having no chanse of keeping things hitting them?
Anyway the way I see it getting to the higher ends of damage reduction is the most powerfull thing for a mele fighter type. High AC is good but as Akata earlier stated she got an PC that have extremly high AC, especialy buffed due to the double int AC modifyer.. She will eventually get hurt and hit anyway because of all the 20s they will roll will tear her appart.
The more regular build for example pure fighter or fighter/rogue splitt have neither High AC or damage reduction. So I think that armours that could be for better bennefits for those types but that will not help DD would be more balanced.
Lets say the fighter have an 10 soak armour and also There could be items that grant /-5 resistance. Totaly he shrugs of 15 points of mele. This wan't be extremly powerfull but it would be helpfull. The 10 soak armour wan't help the DD but he can instead use an /-5 resistance armour.
This will prevent the DDs getting so extremly high mele toleration but still help the regular fighter types to stand a better chanse in battle :)
I'll try to be clearer.
What I was trying to say is that a melee lacks the tools to keep mobs occupied. He has no skill or feat to use to gain and keep the attention of a hostile creature.
Sure while soloing it doesn't matter as much as you'll be surrounded anyway, but all melee builds cannot be expected to perform equally good while soloing.
DDs have DR if built for it, but without a tanking mechanism they're actually sub-par companions, because they've sacrificed melee prowess (STR -> AB) to gain those few points of DR. Anything with rogue will be much more helpful in a party and even limitedly in soloing, a more vulnerable offensive build might just outlast through elimination.
So my point was that DD's have one thing going for them: Sneak Immunity. But even that is limited and can easily be negated.
Fighters in general would gain a lot from damage negation increases and given that there is no real mechanism to keep mobs on a DR stacked PC, there is no danger of overpowering any specific build either.
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I'll try to be clearer.
What I was trying to say is that a melee lacks the tools to keep mobs occupied. He has no skill or feat to use to gain and keep the attention of a hostile creature.
Sure while soloing it doesn't matter as much as you'll be surrounded anyway, but all melee builds cannot be expected to perform equally good while soloing.
DDs have DR if built for it, but without a tanking mechanism they're actually sub-par companions, because they've sacrificed melee prowess (STR -> AB) to gain those few points of DR. Anything with rogue will be much more helpful in a party and even limitedly in soloing, a more vulnerable offensive build might just outlast through elimination.
So my point was that DD's have one thing going for them: Sneak Immunity. But even that is limited and can easily be negated.
Fighters in general would gain a lot from damage negation increases and given that there is no real mechanism to keep mobs on a DR stacked PC, there is no danger of overpowering any specific build either.
I get what you are saying now. It is so that the fighter classes in general have no tools realy to keep mobs occupied as you say. Thats the same for all mele classes. And the way it should be.
I think the main focus here was to find ways in making fighter classes a little better when soloing and not in partys.
Making better armours for fightertypes will help. The "weakest" classes are the pure fighter and the little better fighter/rogue splitt. Armour that will help them take a little more damage would be nice. DD builds are a strong in DR as it is. The curve in how DR progress in the end is massive.
Lets take another class combo instead of DD so you don't think I'm just picking on your class sOulz ;)
Fighter/Duelist/wizard: With mithril clothing giving/-10 He will have 30 ponits of DR with Greater Stoneskin. Thats simply to high..
At lvl 33 He can have the feat Epic warding and have 60 in DR and thats crazy.. Only for 2 minutes though but still.. Thats one long battle. In Tensers form (+ 10 AB), fully buffed, 75% concealment, High AC, hasted and so forth he would be pretty much immortal. Right having 55% as it is now instead of 60% Isn't a huge different. Both are on the scale ridicolusly high :)
The classes with high DRed.. will benefit to much from items that also grant /-10 resistance. My opinion and i fully understand you think different.
Unfair that armours with high DRed.. instead of high Dres..wan't be any good for DR builds? Well having other types of armours that will grant extra con, str or higher AC +5 or so that will help DD builds will adress that issue :) DD builds will still be much stronger/better then pure fighter when soloing..
*cheers*
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Sorry, when I said across the board... what I meant was for all "Mithril Armours" to have the /-10 Damage resistance to Piercing, Bludgeoning and Slashing.
Not the Mithril clothing.
Full Plate and Half Plate, Scale and Chainmail, Chainshirt... basically all your Heavy and Medium Armours.
Mithril Clothing already has /- 5 to all the damage types ... and some rare Epic Drop clothing offers the same, so a +5 extra for the sake of balancing the fighter's won't make a great amount of difference to those mages with Mithril Clothing.
Sure... throw a stoneskin on someone wearing such heavy armour with that DR .. and yes... they're going to have a nice Damage Reduction of 20 for as long as the stoneskin lasts, and then drop down to their 10 that the armour provides.
But lets face it, by the time a character is high enough level to wear these Mithril armours, that stoneskin is going to get whacked off them pretty quickly in usual Epic style battles.
A lot of Epic creatures will totally ignore the Stoneskin damage reduction anyway, their weapons being of the +5 or higher enchantment.
Its at that point the Melee build will hug and kiss his /-10 Damage reduction set of massive, heavy armour with its half decent armour class and his superior amount of hitpoints.... and the mage will sulk and hide in the back with his flimsy /-5 set of clothing and his feeble health and throw spells from a distance.
As it should be.
It's only an extra + /-5 to the resistances, but I'm sure Melee builds will certainly feel the benefit.
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I agree in having 10 damage reduction armour. Its having 10 resistance armour I think is to good/high.
Anyways this is only one way to make it a little better for non casters. Shields, weapons and other gears could all be needing som upgrades. One quite upgrade have been made but scince the playerbase is getting to higher lvls one more would not hurt :)
But as Chongo stated earlier the thing that realy would make any difference here is changing the spawns/adding areas with smaller spawns. It will always be difficoult for non-casters to solo aslong the spawns are huge. Spellcasters with area effects spells can controll huge mobs, mele fighters cannot.
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I get what you are saying now. It is so that the fighter classes in general have no tools realy to keep mobs occupied as you say. Thats the same for all mele classes. And the way it should be.
I think the main focus here was to find ways in making fighter classes a little better when soloing and not in partys.
Making better armours for fightertypes will help. The "weakest" classes are the pure fighter and the little better fighter/rogue splitt. Armour that will help them take a little more damage would be nice. DD builds are a strong in DR as it is. The curve in how DR progress in the end is massive.
Lets take another class combo instead of DD so you don't think I'm just picking on your class sOulz ;)
Fighter/Duelist/wizard: With mithril clothing giving/-10 He will have 30 ponits of DR with Greater Stoneskin. Thats simply to high..
At lvl 33 He can have the feat Epic warding and have 60 in DR and thats crazy.. Only for 2 minutes though but still.. Thats one long battle. In Tensers form (+ 10 AB), fully buffed, 75% concealment, High AC, hasted and so forth he would be pretty much immortal. Right having 55% as it is now instead of 60% Isn't a huge different. Both are on the scale ridicolusly high :)
The classes with high DRed.. will benefit to much from items that also grant /-10 resistance. My opinion and i fully understand you think different.
Unfair that armours with high DRed.. instead of high Dres..wan't be any good for DR builds? Well having other types of armours that will grant extra con, str or higher AC +5 or so that will help DD builds will adress that issue :) DD builds will still be much stronger/better then pure fighter when soloing..
*cheers*
I guess it's all a matter of opinion and I'm sure that people who are a high level would agree with you, but in my opinion, having 2 minutes of extreme solo capability as a level 33 character is hardly overpowering. That's what you get with different builds - either you stack and optimize for a specific strength (in this case spells) or you can be average in everything (typical fighter build).
All in all, arguing between the power of DRed and DRes is rather moot and opinionate, but a character at level 30+ deserves to have power if built towards it. All builds can never be equal.
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but a character at level 30+ deserves to have power if built towards it. All builds can never be equal.
I totally agree about that!
*cheers*
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Lots of stuff hits for +50 points per hit when you get to high epic areas. Not to mention that many of them are on perma haste, have sneak attacks, and have weapons better then +5. Add to that the damage you take from point blank magic being spammed in your face by creature casters that put many PC casters to shame and your typical front liner takes a lot of damage. More DR (both DRed and DRes) would be great but dont think for a min that it is going to make any fighters invulnerable. It will reduce the amount of times they die though. And that is a good thing.
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I'll try to keep this short and to the point, I started out by going though the thread and quoting statements and putting up counter arguments for them. Well... I ended up with a thread that would make most people fall asleep and at something that was more or less one long list of complaints ;)
All points/arguments from me are made out from the current version of Layo's spawns (obviously I can't argue out from something I don't know what will be)
Spawn balance should always and only be viewed at in a mechanical and engine wise way. Spawn's are build to function without a dm behind them, meaning they depend on the script that is put on them and no offence that's script is more stupid than a hole in the ground. The moment a dm is sitting behind it he/she is able to adjust it fitting a single player or a group regardless of class and level.
Spawn with brain (Dm controlling it)
Random epic level mage is running in xx location fitting his level, He got his shadow shield, greater stone, protecting from spells etc on. Runs in ready to fire off a wail... ups.. it's not working? Wait.. the epic npc mage decided to enter counter-mode. What a cheater. Wait wait wait, the second epic npc caster dared to disjunction (http:// http://lore.layonara.com/Mordenkainen's%20Disjunction) me?
I don't have to say what would happen to the poor mage there do I?
There was a time when Dm's would do this to a large extend, not log on and kill a player/group as in my example, but log on and twig spawns so they matched the player/group and offered a challenge and a nice break from peoples routine run. Sadly this happens less and less. Why you ask? Lack of dm's, the dm's around having less time due to real life and so on, and...because of the player base in general, when a dm adjusted the spawns to provide a bigger challenge they were accused of ruining peoples fun and worse in some cases viewed to attack groups/person for personal reasons. I don't speak for anyone else but if someone inform me I in their view ruin their fun and are doing it for personal reasons than I try to avoid that person.
Maybe that's something to consider for all of us?
To me balance either means you look at it purely from a mechanical view, in this case you can't makes spawns that demands half the classes to group with a caster, when the caster don't need the non-caster and sorry but in Layo 90% of all spawns build for epic groups (21+) then not only don't the caster need a non-caster, he don't even need the group. In my opinion that has nothing at all to do with dungeon and dragons where the basic idea is to have four players (cleric,fighter,mage,rogue) in order to survive they need to depend on the skills of each other.
Does that mean that Layonara should be build with that in mind?
No of course not, you build a spawn so it reflects the player base, m
eaning your everyday spawn should offer a challenge to the majority of the player base. That will leave some either ahead (read stronger character than the average character) or behind (read weaker character than the average character) And it's the later group I'm trying to aid without disturbing the balance that is already there for the majority, on top of that I try to take into account that the nwn version of Layonara only has a fixed amount of time left and the people who need to do this are all busy working on the mmo.
Layonara is low magic world therefore magic should be powerful and special[/]
This is one of the statements I have heard most often the last few days.
Powerful yes, Special no, at least not how I understand special, to me special=rare
As long as you can't travel 5 area's without falling over a npc caster then magic is not rare.
As long as there is no restriction on Caster classes, then magic is not rare, the EPIC caster is however still rare, because I agree somewhat with Miltonyorkcastle (http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/253612-warning-rabid-opinion-beware-debate.html) but the amount of casters (high and low level) means magic isn't rare
Now that we established that you have a large amount of pc casters (check the server status) and you have a huge[/u] amount of npc caster, you can start to look at how that effect the spawn balance.
The large amount of pc casters means the majority of non-casters can get wards, that in turn forces the team to build spawn that take that into account, or accept that that the majority of players can run around without a care in the world because they're too powerful compared to the everyday spawn, that in return hit the people who don't have a caster to aid them and create a unhealthy relation between caster/non-caster. You can fix this in a number of ways
1 add items that lower the difference between people traveling with casters and people without (if you think this over then you'll notice, Ahhh.. the increase in healing and items that offer death ward protection is due to lack of pc clerics)
2 redo spawns
3 remove buffspells and npc casters (you can leave a few but they should be restricted to special places, and you will still need to redo all the none caster spawns because they have ab/ac/hp balanced for warded up pc's)
I still like option 1 most because it to me seems like the least amount of work, no it wont make your non-caster able to run in among a spawn and instant kill them like a epic caster build for high dc.
Suggested change
Enchantment rod weapon (you can come up with a fancy name if you wish)
Add +2 to enchantment to item of choice.
You can add it to all types of weapon as well as gloves so you're not leaving any class or weapon type out.
You made the distance between a buffed and unbuffed character ever so slightly smaller, and giving non-caster the heart blood of their trade back, allowing them Ic and mechanical wise to gain the weapon the spawns (the everyday spawn on the server and the spawns used by dm's on quest already assume you have, due to the large amount of pc casters in the world) and wouldn't it be nice just for once when you're standing on the current plot quest and about to be attacked by drach's, that your epic character wouldn't have to do go..
sorry queenie but I can't touch those drachs without a wizard enchanting my mithril blade I used hours to get, followed by tracking down a master weapon smith who could make it. But hey wait the level 25 mage standing over there can cast a level 3 spell on it... ahh there we go off to save the world
I'm not going to comment on the idea itself, at least not right now, but it's important to point out that raising the enhancement on weapons and armors will also increase the level requirements for them as well.
I don't have a lot of knowledge on scripts so I asked around instead; you can by reducing the value enchantments are set to give in the 2da file reduce the level reg. my suggestion would go like this
Bronze level reg 0
Iron level reg 5
Adamantium level reg 10
Mithril level reg 15
Enchantment rod +10 level reg
If you looks this over then now your weapon follows the gmw spell and in return the + spawns take into account you have.
But gmw is a spell and this is permanent:
Looks at resting (http://lore.layonara.com/Resting) and GMW (http://lore.layonara.com/Greater%20Magic%20Weapon) you'll notice the duration of the spell follow the resting so engine wise there is no difference.
Mithril shouldn't be for level 15 characters!!!!!!
Well it's not, the location is still down in the deep hidden behind a spawn build for a group of level 25 characters.
Players will harvest these and sell iron weapons with a +2 rod on:
I guess I forgot post the properties of the Rod
Enchantment weapon rod
Plot marked. Can't be trade or sold, now the actual rod are can't be sold in its item form
when activated fires of script doing the following.
Add +2 to current enchantment (important to note it should add not overwrite)
Check for previous adds (this one I'm not too sure of but the idea is to remove the ability to stack)
Add plot marking to item. Your no longer able to trade or sell the item. So no you can't open up a show with 1000 +3 iron weapons.
So should this be a drop or craftable item?
Permanent drop with a respawn time on x hours, placed in the misty village (aimed for level 20ish?), there is already a nice pile of gold there with nothing in it, it's a magic dead area. Wheee my non-caster can get it without having to depend on casters and I can even make a trip out of it with friends.
To summon up, the item isn't going to disrupt the ic balance there is between bronze, iron, adamantium and mithril. Yes engine wise you can make a +3 weapon but with the overflow of casters the majority have that whenever they're playing anyhow, and with the level reg iron+rod=15 your character might be better off with an adamantium blade with an element rod on.
You can make the same for the armor/shield
Except in this regard it's to add a tiny drop of power to non-casters, as it have already been pointed out it won't matter all that much, you get either +2 or +4 to ac depending on if your shield user, in a balance view that means you remove 1 attack per non-caster critter. Since natural 20 ignore ac you're only giving people a few seconds longer to live, but hey maybe if I can get 2-3 more non-casters with me then we can now survive?
Advantage of adding the items
Non-casters get the bread of butter of their classes back, and they get a small + in gear, shifting the balance slightly back and trust me it's a small shift.
To put this into perspective, how many would believe it's fair if the team added a script that checked to see if casters were grouped and in the same area as a non-caster, if you are you can cast spell from lvl 1-9 if you're not from 1-7 that is my opinion on balance between caster and non-caster under the current spawn.
Yes a epic level non-caster can be the hero of the day, but only[/u] if he can find a caster to ward him up, that is not encouraging grouping that is enforcing it.
So why make it a permanent drop?
Like the revamp to spells, that was done to aid casters to function in groups then this is the same, its something that should have been added when the server went from ECDQ system to WLCDQ system. So no people shouldn't have to send hours trying to get it from the epic drop list or hour's collection xx amount of cnr. In all fairness then wizards past level 25 prior to the revamp wasn't asked to relearn their spells. By placing it in a area build for lvl 20 your giving non-casters an easy way to get the mechanical advantage they need anyhow without disrupting the uniqueness of the difference weapon types. And the opportunity for the epic fighter to say:
Yes Queenie, I'll protect you from the horrible drach :D
Heh okay I promised it wouldn't be a rant I guess I got a little carried away..
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To add another idea, you can make the enchantment weapon/armor/shield rods specific to melee builds only. So if you have caster levels you cant use it. This does not have to be done by code it can be done by a OOC statement saying the above.
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To add another idea, you can make the enchantment weapon/armor/shield rods specific to melee builds only. So if you have caster levels you cant use it. This does not have to be done by code it can be done by a OOC statement saying the above.
That would be fair, and that is coming from a mage. Perhaps it should be one of those craftable items requiring a spell to be memorized so spellcasters are the ones required to craft it though... ;)
I think the OOC idea part wouldn't work. You would have too many players ignoring it and it seems too labor intensive an issue to continually police. :\
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I hve seen the OOC statement method used on another server and it was not abused. I have to think we with our small tight community can follow this kind of rule. We have had only a small group of rule brakers,
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If its really an issue, usage limitation by class can be added by the enchantment rod at the same time.