The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: jrizz on December 15, 2009, 03:55:37 PM
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Many time we have had the discussion about melee vs caster balance issues. Some good stuff has come out of those discussions. I dont want to bring any of that back up again. But I do want to relay a little info. Wren was out with a mage the other day and they were fighting things. The mage had to log off and did so before resting, so Wren still had all the buffs (GWM, STR, CON, DEX, SR, TS, mage armor, haste, and a few others) up. So I took him to fight a bunch of giants that would normally mash him into a pulp. He did very well, he defeated them all but still had a use a few healing potions in the mix.
This got me thinking. On other servers I have seen full array of buffing potions, scrolls, and wands made available and at affordable prices. Scrolls made by higher level mages were cast at higher levels and there were potions that went up to level 15. The shop potions went up to level 10 (not all but at least the ability ones for sure) and the crafted potions went up to 15.
Now of course having casters to buff you up and rain magic/holy/song death down on your foes is always the best way to go. But how much would it hurt to have access to buffing potions, scrolls, and wands that had some decent power to them? I am only talking about buffing so for melees they still have to get down a dirty :)
The best potions we have are Speed and Invisibility. The Layo Speed potions run out so fast they are mostly used for emergency escape purposes. The invisi ones last longer but they are expensive so they are also saved for emergency use. If you have a very high UMD then scrolls are ok but they have two drawbacks first the mid to high level are priced so high that regular usage is not cost efficient and second many of them are cast at low levels so as to make them useless. As for wands we have very few that are useful at higher levels.
How hard would it be to add buffing potions, scrolls, and wands at least to the shops for a while to see how it goes?
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I see what you're getting at, but I personally would be hesitant about bringing something like this into the game. Layonara encourages RP and partying up. RP mostly doesn't happen when people are not in a party (solo'ing) and implementing buff potions would encourage melee characters to solo - or at least it would make it possible, instead of having to walk into town and see if one can RP their way to a group adventure :)
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Maybe require less in crafting them as well? Takes a lot of items in alchemy and scribing. Amanda is trivial in both and it is almost useless now. With the new heal potions sold in the temples no one buys the red potions from crafters. Also the prices of selling scrolls are crazy due to all the work it takes to make the required Greater Scribing Scrolls, Lucinda touches and everything else needed to scribe them. The only useful scrolls that are sold are the raise dead and that is because they are not found in drops or temples.
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I see what you're getting at, but I personally would be hesitant about bringing something like this into the game. Layonara encourages RP and partying up. RP mostly doesn't happen when people are not in a party (solo'ing) and implementing buff potions would encourage melee characters to solo - or at least it would make it possible, instead of having to walk into town and see if one can RP their way to a group adventure :)
I fully agree with you but as some other threads have shown when you have a smaller community a bit more soloing starts to happen. Melee classes are at a disadvantage in the ability to solo or even just go out with a melee group due to the lack of buffs. There have been suggestions about improving armor and weapons to make up for it but just adding potions, scrolls, and wands (as stated above) would solve this. Also it would not make melee types over powered as it is only buffing and they still need to get in close and personal.
Having a good group is always preferable and way more fun but giving melee types a bit more reach in the solo category would be great. Casters have it and this idea would give melee types I bit more of it :)
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How hard would it be to add buffing potions, scrolls, and wands at least to the shops for a while to see how it goes?
Not hard, but then there's lesser incentive to craft them. Especially in alchemy, if most of the prime products are available in vendors, then the craft is nearly worthless.
Maybe require less in crafting them as well? Takes a lot of items in alchemy and scribing. Amanda is trivial in both and it is almost useless now. With the new heal potions sold in the temples no one buys the red potions from crafters. Also the prices of selling scrolls are crazy due to all the work it takes to make the required Greater Scribing Scrolls, Lucinda touches and everything else needed to scribe them. The only useful scrolls that are sold are the raise dead and that is because they are not found in drops or temples.
The highest-need potion recipes, those being the cure/heal potions, were significantly reduced last spring. It sounds though like the temple stores are undercutting crafters, which is not ultimately a good thing. Perhaps it is worthwhile to revisit the distribution of heal potions from vendors.
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Although I generally think fighters are tougher than their players think, I also don't think crafting tweaks should be entirely dismissed for this reason: no party should be essentially dependent on having one specific class.
In other words, while mixed class parties will always be naturally stronger, it should not be impossible to form an effective party without a mage in the mix, just as it isn't impossible to form an effective party made solely of casters. Right now though, at the higher levels, you really can't fight without magic - because the world's difficulty is tuned to expect it.
However, I would also not solve this by making everything you can craft easily purchasable at local stores - which would ruin crafting. Rather I would solve it by extending the durations of items made by crafting.
If my warrior, in lieu of knowing how to cast a Bull's Strength spell, goes to Dregar to pick 8 cranberries, returns to Wayfare to pick hawthorne flower, goes off to the desert to get fire agate, then comes back to juice, powder stone, and finally brew, a Bull's Strength potion - that potion had better last more than the absolute minimum time. In fact, it should remain in effect for 24 hours, so as to guarantee that the effect lasts until he rests.
Same thing for Alchemist's Fire he might want to apply to his weapon. Right now it runs for about 3 rounds. Which is absurd.
And the vast majority of scrolls are absolutely worthless to all but wizards, because their "casting level" is always set to the absolute minimum level you need to cast the spell.
Increasing the effective level for items to be reasonable would not ruin play balance at all - fighters would still prefer magicians to buff them, because of the ease. But it would allow fighters who really wanted to, to an alternative mechanism to "casting", and make parties of non-casters at least somewhat effective.
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Yeah, that would probably work, but it's a heck of a task, with its own series of pitfalls.
The potions and scrolls, most of which are stock Bioware items, all have semi-hard-coded casting levels attached to them, configured in the item property 2da files. It would be nice if it was just a simple matter of saying "Oh, I'd like this potion to cast at 9th level rather than 5th," but that's not the way Bioware has done things, sadly. In theory, we could edit the 2da files and just bump up the caster level in all those spell item properties, and it would automatically upgrade all our potions, scrolls and wands, but then the other side of that is that it also upgrades all other items that use those item properties including creature weapons/skins/abilities. So in boosting that, we'd not really help things at all because many of the monsters would get tougher as a result.
The other possibility would be to add new caster level options to the 2da files and remake all these scrolls, potions and wands (again, most of which are stock Bioware), but the problem there, besides workload, is a bloated palette...which we may just burst by attempting something like this.
And yeah, Alchemist's fire is a pretty short duration. It's generally considered a stepping stone in the crafting process and a spell component more than a viable weapon enhancement.
Oh and...Cranberries can be found on West. ;)
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I was not aware that any potions besides healing, speed, and Invisibility could be made :P (I think this is due to no one making anything but them since all others are pretty much useless) As for scrolls the min level thing is the key to why they are not so useful. And I dont know what wands can be made. But here is a list of buff spells and the casting level that would make them useful to melee types:
Having these available by potion, scroll, or wand would be great
Affordable and not over the top hard to craft:
All ability stats cast at 15th level
Mage armor cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 15th level
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4)
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4)
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 15th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 15th level
True seeing cast at 15th level
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4)
except for the ones listed at 20th level I think bioware has these levels available.
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In theory, we could edit the 2da files and just bump up the caster level in all those spell item properties, and it would automatically upgrade all our potions, scrolls and wands, but then the other side of that is that it also upgrades all other items that use those item properties including creature weapons/skins/abilities. So in boosting that, we'd not really help things at all because many of the monsters would get tougher as a result.
Thank you for your very lucid explanation for what is going on. I still think about half of the items could be edited with no danger though. The Bull's Strength spell effect, for example, only adds to duration when you increase the level, not any increase in strength. So I really don't see how you could possibly get in trouble with that, since skin-effect items seem to be set to Always On anyway.
In fact, I'd be more than happy to make a cross list of safely editable spell effects if you're seriously considering this (i.e. effects that don't scale except for increasing durations). An hour or two in the bit editor and you're done.
The other possibility would be to add new caster level options to the 2da files and remake all these scrolls, potions and wands (again, most of which are stock Bioware), but the problem there, besides workload, is a bloated palette...which we may just burst by attempting something like this.
Because most spell effects are already safe, you might not have make many additions at all. And I would suggest you not, unless you see strong reason. Balance changes are best done slowly in one direction, because no player ever whines on the second go-round that you made something even easier (as they will when you overcompensated the first time and have to nerf it back a bit).
Oh and...Cranberries can be found on West. ;)
Yes, but not near a portal. And strangely, not in swamps. :D
(Cranberries are also called "Fenberries"; they are the fruit of a plant that only grows in swamp water.)
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Because most spell effects are already safe, you might not have make many additions at all. And I would suggest you not, unless you see strong reason. Balance changes are best done slowly in one direction, because no player ever whines on the second go-round that you made something even easier (as they will when you overcompensated the first time and have to nerf it back a bit).
Heh...no, I really don't want, nor was I suggesting I do so, as I see fairly strong reasons not to go this particular route. It was stated for illustration of the possibilities and pitfalls, in case anyone else came up with the same idea.
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Droppable or Craftable items that gave intermediate to *significant* boosts towards Use Magic Device would be useful towards making noncaster classes magic capable via the use of scrolls and other class restricted items like books already in game. Since the use magic device check is something rather outlandish (20+ base?), it dictates you be a main-rank specialist in the skill over a long period of levels. Booster UMD holdables like CEP Wands, instruments and orbs, flaming skull lanterns, holy symbols and more would go a long way towards both magic item usage, and RP prop awesomeness. A rogue or fighter who put their blade up mid combat and whipped out a Willow Ufgood wand with +14 UMD bodus and started reading off magic spells would be awesome. And since UMD is the kind of skill that you can't use untrained, everybody who benefitted from such an item would have to at least crossclass a few levels in order to cast a scroll. As it is now, I think a 20th lvl fighter who crosstrained UMD every single level can only max the skill ranks at around 12ish, so an epic fighter taking a skill all his life still looks at a magic missile scroll and blows his nose into it rather than use it.
I would also like to see such items used to empower the mages in game. A mage who pulls out a flaming skull lantern could get Spell focuses to Evocation and Necromancy, and maybe cast a few vampiric spells once/day. Holy Toranite symbols which bestow extra turning feat and cast charges of sunlight and sunbeam for vampire turning. An Aeridenite Staff which heals a few times/day like a healer's hug, and granted empowered healing feat, useful for both clerics and bards. Bring back the mages' and druids' staff, not just fashionable, but functional. Mist rainmaker staves that improve evocation focus and cast lightning spells. (Pallenia and Grovel would love this) Voraxian Blood Frenzy Axes with strength charges. Wee Berylite gem hammers that cast invisibility of a decent duration at least 1x/day and have persistant bonus to search. (Gemseeker!)
As for the Holy symbols, I believe we already have gfx for a Toranite Ankh, A Corathite Monkey-Skull on a stick, A very sweet looking Lightning Bolt of Lucinda, and a cross, which doesn't really fit the Lore, but sure is Christmassy. That Burning Skull Lantern is just asking to be made into some necromancer's toy, and the more mage staff variants, the better.
Toys, Toys, Toys! *shakes the items under his Christmas Tree*
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And moving this to a more suitable forum. :)
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Do not underestimate the oil of sharpness. It is the hardest potion to craft in alchemy and lasts for a few battles. It comes in handy by increasing the crit threat range of your weapon.
All it needs is an ingot of addy some mahogany dust and a bottle of pear juice. Rather easy for epic and pre epic characters to get.
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Heh...no, I really don't want, nor was I suggesting I do so, as I see fairly strong reasons not to go this particular route. It was stated for illustration of the possibilities and pitfalls, in case anyone else came up with the same idea.
For transparency can you explain the fairly strong reason you see not to try this out?
It is not over powering and more then enough caster buffs were left off my list to make having a caster in the group much better. Also casters buffs will be stronger and last longer (not to mention empower and extend).
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For transparency can you explain the fairly strong reason you see not to try this out?
It is not over powering and more then enough caster buffs were left off my list to make having a caster in the group much better. Also casters buffs will be stronger and last longer (not to mention empower and extend).
Oh you misunderstand.
I was not objecting to the idea in general but to that specific method of duplicating and remaking scrolls and potions to give them higher usefulness across the board. *points up a few posts*
I'm not commenting on the viability or balance issues for now, only injecting some technical perspective for furthering the discussion.
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As for one who used to be in the top Infusing department. Not all wand can be used by every one. Infact, unless you have umd, most wands are not usable by fighters.
This may have been stated, but I just skimmed into the thread
(Cranberries are also called "Fenberries"; they are the fruit of a plant that only grows in swamp water.)
Not too sure where you got that. My mother harvest for her own uses. All you need is about 4 to 6 inch of soil.
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Not too sure where you got that. My mother harvest (cranberries) for her own uses. All you need is about 4 to 6 inch of soil.
A few small plants can be grown that way, but for the bushes to grow big, you need water. Lots of water - for their weight to be supported.
From google, here are Images of cranberry harvests (http://images.google.com/images?q=cranberries+growing&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGGL_en___US343&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=XVQoS-TqII6SsgP6yq2_DA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQsAQwAw)
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As for one who used to be in the top Infusing department. Not all wand can be used by every one. Infact, unless you have umd, most wands are not usable by fighters.
This may have been stated, but I just skimmed into the thread
(Cranberries are also called "Fenberries"; they are the fruit of a plant that only grows in swamp water.)
Not too sure where you got that. My mother harvest for her own uses. All you need is about 4 to 6 inch of soil.
Yeah, duh. You haven't seen the commercials (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWt3lINvXuE)? There's one where he karate kicks that makes me chuckle, but sadly, YouTube only has three or four of them. ;)
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Just for the player-base's info, a wizard of high enough levels who scribes a scroll of Greater Magic Weapon produces a caster level 15 GMW scroll ;)
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Just for the player-base's info, a wizard of high enough levels who scribes a scroll of Greater Magic Weapon produces a caster level 15 GMW scroll ;)
Two issue with that:
1. 15th level is only +3
2. The current in game cost of such a scroll is ludicrous.
So this in no way helps with the original request. As a matter of fact it is a symptom of the issue.
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As a crafter I would disagree with making all of those things easily available. They should be expensive due to the effort involved in making them, and if the vendors undercut the crafters there would be no point in crafting really. It would also detract from the usefulness in magic using classes overall in my opinion. The only reason you would bring them along would to be glass cannons. Another balance item to look at is if mages no longer had to pick and choose carefully between buffing spells and offensive magics, they would be loading their slots up with predominantly damaging and offensive spells, which would make encounters with the monsters a little easier, particularly in areas where you cannot rest. As a mage, balancing spell loads can be a tricky task, especially when you are deciding how to maximize the dynamics of a mixed party. If buffs are not needed, it sort of becomes a "no-brainer."
I really like Lon's ideas myself.
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Except for a few spells the majority on my list above are lower level spells of which casters have many. Furthermore I dont want to see crafters undercut but 50k plus for high level scrolls makes them useless to PC that have high UMD, it is just plain old not cost effective. Heck 5k for a scroll would make it not cost effective on layo.
So what I am asking for are really mid powered (short list) buffs available in a cost effective way so they can be used for more then just dire emergencies. This in no way reduces or replaces casters, since caster buffs are way more powerful both in an expanded list and in the duration and power of the buffs (empower, extend).
I am just asking for some way to let groups or individual PCs do some things without the absolute NEED for a caster.
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Mage armor cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Bard 1, Wizard / Sorcerer 1
Flame weapon cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 2
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4) - Caster Level(s): Druid 4, Ranger 4, Wizard / Sorcerer 4
Mind blank cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4) - Caster Level(s): Bard 3, Cleric 4, Paladin 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 3
Haste cast at 10th level - Caster Level(s): Bard 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 3
Resist elements cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 2, Druid 2, Paladin 2, Ranger 1, Wizard / Sorcerer 2
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 3
Death ward cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 4, Druid 5, Paladin 4
True seeing cast at 15th level - Caster Level(s): Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 6
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4) - Caster Level(s): Cleric 3
Just to add levels to the list for clarity.
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Except for a few spells the majority on my list above are lower level spells of which casters have many. Furthermore I dont want to see crafters undercut but 50k plus for high level scrolls makes them useless to PC that have high UMD, it is just plain old not cost effective. Heck 5k for a scroll would make it not cost effective on layo.
So what I am asking for are really mid powered (short list) buffs available in a cost effective way so they can be used for more then just dire emergencies. This in no way reduces or replaces casters, since caster buffs are way more powerful both in an expanded list and in the duration and power of the buffs (empower, extend).
I am just asking for some way to let groups or individual PCs do some things without the absolute NEED for a caster.
Since this is a meta-discussion, let me point out that the "price" issue you are talking about has more to do with in-game roleplaying than balancing. Chakar may price himself out of the market in terms on scrolls (due to his personality), but other PCs (like mine) do not, or will do it simply for the chance to practice on something non-trivial. Generally if you provide the materials and realize that an 85% chance means you sometimes won't get your item, many things can be had very cheaply (or free), simply by having your PC ask around.
But asking around involves (gasp!) roleplaying. Wouldn't want that. ;)
p.s. Oh, and by the way, before you go complaining too much further, Darthi was selling her practice Flame weapon scrolls a while back for 100 Gold each, and had a terrible time getting rid of them. Had to drop the price to 50 to move them. So I'm not really getting the understanding of why you think things are priced out of reach. What it really seems to me to be is the inconvenience of meeting up with someone, which I admit is a pain, but again that's more of a way that in-game things are run. Not mechanical issues.
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Since this is a meta-discussion, let me point out that the "price" issue you are talking about has more to do with in-game roleplaying than balancing. Chakar may price himself out of the market in terms on scrolls (due to his personality), but other PCs (like mine) do not, or will do it simply for the chance to practice on something non-trivial. Generally if you provide the materials and realize that an 85% chance means you sometimes won't get your item, many things can be had very cheaply (or free), simply by having your PC ask around.
But asking around involves (gasp!) roleplaying. Wouldn't want that. ;)
I did say easy to get :) running around and collecting the crazy amount of stuff needed to make a few scrolls is very time consuming. If it did not take as much to make the scrolls on my list and they were worth using (meaning the durations and power were useful) then collecting everything needed would be well worth it.
Remember what I am asking for is a steady supply of the listed items available to all players. I would not want to encroach on the lively hood of scribers but you need to ask yourself this: Do you really want to spend a huge amount of your IG time crafting the enormous supply of scroll that my request would demand?
This is the same as healing potions. The lesser healing potions which are great to have created a demand that I dont think any crafters would be able to keep up with. That is why the best of the healing potions was kept out of the shops. So that the crafters still have something very worth while to sell. I can tell you that Wren carries well over 50 red heals at all times and that he has one crafter that he goes to for his supply.
If we had the same thing with scrolls, wands, and potions where the lesser spell effects (say 1st to 5th level) were available in a easy to get manner (and with the stronger effects and durations) then the market for the higher level useful scrolls, wands, and potions (6th to 8th) would go up dramatically. As long as they had the longer durations and the stronger effects and they were cost effective to make and sell in mass quantities.
NOTE: Wren did not mind gathering a huge load of wood for scrolls as payment for a nice pile of greater stone skin scrolls :)
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NOTE: Wren did not mind gathering a huge load of wood for scrolls as payment for a nice pile of greater stone skin scrolls :)
Which she is dutifully working on (it takes quite some time to process, actually).
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Since this is a meta-discussion, let me point out that the "price" issue you are talking about has more to do with in-game roleplaying than balancing. Chakar may price himself out of the market in terms on scrolls (due to his personality), but other PCs (like mine) do not, or will do it simply for the chance to practice on something non-trivial. Generally if you provide the materials and realize that an 85% chance means you sometimes won't get your item, many things can be had very cheaply (or free), simply by having your PC ask around.
Agreed! I routinely "sell" or trade items and services for RP favors that do not involve coin in any way, especially when the materials are provided. If I have to go chase stuff down though, you better bring your wallet... LOL ;)
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Really this is way off track of the thread. If your current crafting can supply the community with cost effective longer duration buffing by way of wand, scroll, or potion and can do so in mass quantity then great :) But I dont think that is the case :)
To restate:
Remember what I am asking for is a steady supply of the listed items available to all players. I would not want to encroach on the lively hood of scribers but you need to ask yourself this: Do you really want to spend a huge amount of your IG time crafting the enormous supply of scrolls, potions, and wands that my request would demand?
This is the same as healing potions. The lesser healing potions which are great to have created a demand that I dont think any crafters would be able to keep up with. That is why the best of the healing potions was kept out of the shops. So that the crafters still have something very worth while to sell. I can tell you that Wren carries well over 50 red heals at all times and that he has one crafter that he goes to for his supply.
If we had the same thing with scrolls, wands, and potions where the lesser spell effects (say 1st to 5th level) were available in a easy to get manner (and with the stronger effects and durations) then the market for the higher level useful scrolls, wands, and potions (6th to 8th) would go up dramatically. As long as they had the longer durations and the stronger effects and they were cost effective to make and sell in mass quantities.
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Remember what I am asking for is a steady supply of the listed items available to all players. I would not want to encroach on the lively hood of scribers but you need to ask yourself this: Do you really want to spend a huge amount of your IG time crafting the enormous supply of scrolls, potions, and wands that my request would demand?
If we had the same thing with scrolls, wands, and potions where the lesser spell effects (say 1st to 5th level) were available in a easy to get manner (and with the stronger effects and durations) then the market for the higher level useful scrolls, wands, and potions (6th to 8th) would go up dramatically. As long as they had the longer durations and the stronger effects and they were cost effective to make and sell in mass quantities.
Well to address last things first, many low level Scrolls are available. You can go to any "Archanist" and pick up a Flame Weapon scroll, if you're willing to pay the price. They're a little too expensive for my taste, but not unavailable.
Second, I think you need to separate the "crafting" from the "gathering" markets. If Wren wants to buy a box of eggs (4,000T), two boxes of honey (1500T), 40 Fire Opal dusts (4000T), and 35 mahogany scrolls (3000T), Darthi will happily crank out 30 or so Greater Stones for him for very little cost (or certainly less than the 300,000T that Chakar would charge) - even after it becomes trivial to her. And the reason is this: the actual scribing doesn't take much time at all.
But because gathering does take time, this is also acts a natural limit on Wren's seeming intention of becoming, for lack of a better term, a "Scroll wizard" - meaning someone with all the advantages of being able to cast spells without any of the considerable disadvantages of playing a spellcasting class.
And I'm just not in favor of that.
My position is that using scrolls in lieu of having an arcane magic user in your party should be possible, but should also be neither easy nor particularly cost effective. Or else things will be unbalanced in the other direction, which would be equally as bad.
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True, it did go off on a little bit of a tangent there, and I apologize. :) I guess my feeling in short is it would indeed encroach on the livelihood of many scribers and infusers, as well as lessen the role of the spell classes in general, and possibly impact some aspects of balancing as I have already alluded too previously. It is something I would not be too keen on supporting.
You do have some good and valid points. I just don't think that making all of those buffs cheap and in large quantities at the vendors is the right answer to the problem. I think Lon's suggestions in making the items more usable so they would be looked at as money well spent versus "pulling the handle on the slot machine" to see if they work or not is a better starting point in addressing a workable solution. I'm not privy to the development side, but it seems improbable to me that 5 or 6 more custom items added to the pallet would make it come apart at the seams. Then again, I'm not sure how close it is already to coming unraveled. :)
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Once again the scrolls that are available are for the most part useless for use by anyone other then another wizard for filling their spell books. This is due the scrolls being cast at too low a level. Also as to becoming a "scroll wizard" what I am asking for is only the most common buff spells. Yes many of them can be bought in shops. Do you have any idea why almost no one uses them? Go take a look at the level they are cast at.
If the field was truly balanced I would not be asking for this but it is not. And as stated by Chongo in another thread one of the only ways to even the field is to go area by area and change almost all the spwans. This is a huge amount of work. What I am asking for takes NOTHING away from casters but does give other classes a BIT more freedom. Please please please dont keep trying to make this about taking something away from casters since it does not. And as for crafters it will make a few crafts that currently serve only a very very small market much much more profitable.
When was the last time someone put in an order for potions other then healing? or scrolls not for a spell book? or just about any wands?
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Once again the scrolls that are available are for the most part useless for use by anyone other then another wizard for filling their spell books. This is due the scrolls being cast at too low a level. Also as to becoming a "scroll wizard" what I am asking for is only the most common buff spells. Yes many of them can be bought in shops. Do you have any idea why almost no one uses them? Go take a look at the level they are cast at.
When was the last time someone put in an order for potions other then healing? or scrolls not for a spell book? or just about any wands?
Well we're in agreement then. I asked Dorg to raise the default casting levels - at the very least on all the spell effects that don't scale in power (just duration), which would affect scrolls, wands, but presumably not monster effects. I hope he's at least considering it.
I actually think it would be possible to slightly raise some of the other spell effects that do scale without harming the play balance too much. The Flame Weapon effect, for instance might be raised a bit.
Just not necessarily to the level you're asking. Or at least, not all in a single update. I also don't want a 10th level wizard offering to flame the warrior's weapons, only to be told "Nah, you can't do it nearly as well as these cheap scrolls can."
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While on the topic of potions, scrolls and wands, I'd like to see wands opened up to allow for more spells. Right now you can only infuse very low level spells and only a few higher ones up to level five. In particular, I'd like to see mass haste added as a spell that can be cast via a wand.
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While I'm not against anything changes that would move the balance between caster/none caster towards the none casters, then adding better scrolls would also have the little side effect of giving characters more items in their inventory. I think we all suffed the lag spike that happens when a "collector" logs in, would it be wise to add more items to peoples inventory?
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While I'm not against anything changes that would move the balance between caster/none caster towards the none casters, then adding better scrolls would also have the little side effect of giving characters more items in their inventory. I think we all suffed the lag spike that happens when a "collector" logs in, would it be wise to add more items to peoples inventory?
That's an issue of personal inventory management on a caseby case basis. If smebody's a packrat, then it doesn't matter how many types of items there are out there, he will have a bag ful of the items readily available in equal number as he would have before the new items were intoduced. 15 Healer's Hugs, for example. Remove the healers hugs from the database and everybody out there and he'll just have 150 heal potions, 550 bandages, 8000 sprigs of aloe and 54 million Athus Touches. Meanwhile lag-considerate peopl such as ourselves would still have nice, streamlined, spartan inventories, just tha they would consist of cooler items.
Just look into a packrat's inventory and you'll see what I mean. Balls of string, guano, chicken blood, bits of birch bark, corn. It doesn't matter the value of the item, simply the obsessive compulsive desire to loot everything not nailed down. And if it is nailed down, we just use ye olde crowbar to pry it up and keep a handful of rusty nails that come with it.
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I am not sure I have met many "glass cannons" out there....
So I can appreciate the motivation for wishing for easy and portable buffing, but I think there is an inherent danger in it.
When the new cheap and highly effective healing was brought out it ruined much of the joy I had out of Galathea (heal domain cleric). I am quite familiar with the argument for the cheap and effective healing - so no need for a discussion, but it took away what was special about her and the feeling that she made a difference.
I am sure many rogues feel the same way about the pixie familiar. It too duplicates a core ability (or specialty) of a class and in the same way it devaluates the need and use of rogues.
"All ability stats cast at 15th level
Mage armor cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 15th level
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4)
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4)
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 15th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 15th level
True seeing cast at 15th level
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4)"
When I look at this list I shudder. Tell me what's left of the cleric then (Apart from a lower price)? We already got raise dead scrolls, lots of healing and now all the wards...
I am sorry, but I strongly feel this is going the wrong way about it.
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I am sure many rogues feel the same way about the pixie familiar. It too duplicates a core ability (or specialty) of a class and in the same way it devaluates the need and use of rogues.
Thank you, Gal..Ben despises pixies for that very reason..they want his job! :p
Sorry if this sounds blunt, Jrizz, but time after time I see your posts it seems to me you want the same thing..A fighter with the ability to cast wizard and cleric spells! This can be done with the current system but there are serious trade offs. Are you willing to make those trade offs? I'm with Gal on this one, making the aid other classes bring to the party easier to obtain is the wrong approach. There's a reason Ben collects priests/Priestess and wizards..they are handy to have along! :)
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@Jrizz: As Dorg mentioned, any "cast spell" abilities not in the toolset would either have to be overwritten (which would be unfortunate due to its effect on the skins on hundreds of Layo's creatures) or be extensively modified to include new abilities, and create new items to go with them.
When I initially read your list of spells you'd like to see, I was fairly certain that at least half of them were not available at the levels at which you were looking for them. Included below is your list with the available levels marked in bold beside them.
All ability stats cast at 15th level (Available in the toolset)
Mage armor cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 2nd)
Flame weapon cast at 15th level (Available at 17th level)
Stoneskin cast at level 20 (to get to DR 10/+4) (Highest level in toolset: 7)
Mind blank cast at 15th level (Available in the toolset)
GWM cast at 20th level (to get to +4) (Highest level in toolset: 10)
Haste cast at 10th level (Available in toolset)
Resist elements cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 10)
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level (Available in toolset)
Death ward cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 7)
True seeing cast at 15th level (Highest level in toolset: 9)
Magic vestments casts at 20th level (to get to +4) (Highest level in toolset: 5)
So five out of twelve are available as it stands, the rest would require the rather laborious process Dorg outlined above. Strictly FYI - my other thoughts on the subject will follow shortly.
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@Darkstorme Thank you for looking that up in the toolset! I think what you have outlined as available (and highest level in toolset) would do just great. They would still give a non caster a bit more freedom. As a question did you check this on potions, wands, and scrolls?
@cb you are dead wrong about my intentions. What I really want is more balance but I am trying to find ways to get that without having to have more classes "nerfed" or "buffed". The nerfing and buffing of classes take a lot of time and more often then not fails to hit it intended mark. Furthermore when was the last time I asked for non casters to have caster abilities? Maybe you are referring to the forgotten feat of Dev Crit that was nerfed oh so many years ago and never brought back even after many many spells got much more powerful. That is not a spell like ability but the very wise makers of NWN did put it in as an equalizer to deal with the caster/non-caster power balance issues. Diving in deeper to my rant this would not be an issue if we had a much larger community logged in but for the most part we have less then 20 folks on both server most of the time. So getting a party together that fits your level is not as easy as you make it sound. And you were not being blunt you were just being dead wrong and trying to misdirect this thread for some reason.
I really did not want to get into the caster vs non-caster thing but here I go. There is no one that can deny:
1. The power gap on layo (looking holistically) between casters and non-casters is huge.
2. Regular NWN does not suffer from that issue.
3. The only conclusion is that in our attempts to balance things we actually through things way off balance.
You really have to look at the big picture not just PC to PC but how each PC can operate on Layo and how the Layo spawns have evolved to meet the demands of more powerful PCs. The power to power ratio of PCs to spawns expects a full range of buffs on all PCs this means a caster is EXPECTED to be there. So we have completely negated non caster groups. But caster only groups work just fine. The balance is off, everyone knows it, we need to find a easy way to bridge the gap!
There have been many suggestions most did not make the cut. Here are some:
1. Make melee class only weapons and armor much stronger
1.a The counter was by doing that you make my caster less needed
2. De-nerf dev crit
2.a No real counter given except that it is too powerful to be able to kill a whole group of bad guys in one round.
3. Re-build every spawn making the number less and adding highly spell resistance bad guys to every group.
3.a This was done in a few areas and worked very well but the workload to do all areas is too much
4. Give us some decent, affordable (remember the nerfing of gold drops!), and easy to get common buffs.
4.a The counter is by doing that you make my caster less needed.
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As a question did you check this on potions, wands, and scrolls?
They all use the same set of items properties.
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@cb you are dead wrong about my intentions. What I really want is more balance but I am trying to find ways to get that without having to have more classes "nerfed" or "buffed". The nerfing and buffing of classes take a lot of time and more often then not fails to hit it intended mark. Furthermore when was the last time I asked for non casters to have caster abilities? Maybe you are referring to the forgotten feat of Dev Crit that was nerfed oh so many years ago and never brought back even after many many spells got much more powerful. That is not a spell like ability but the very wise makers of NWN did put it in as an equalizer to deal with the caster/non-caster power balance issues. Diving in deeper to my rant this would not be an issue if we had a much larger community logged in but for the most part we have less then 20 folks on both server most of the time. So getting a party together that fits your level is not as easy as you make it sound. And you were not being blunt you were just being dead wrong and trying to misdirect this thread for some reason.
Alas I am not wrong about this and I strongly dislike the implication of "trying to misdirect this thread for some reason".
As it is, I have a great deal of sympathy for your apparent cause here. The comment about "not meeting many glass cannons" ought to have made this abundantly clear. But the list of spells presented and their caster levels duplicate core abilities of the cleric (and druid). And before this descent into semantics: for any caster class, the spells, that set this class aside from other casters and non-casters, are in my opinion core abilities. So I don't mind warriors getting Dev Crit, I think it would be quite nice, but this is a different way and I feel the wrong way. And pray do tell me, if you want Dev Crit back in its pure and wise form why do you ask for negative energy protection?
And no indeed you do not ask for non-casters to have caster abilities, you just ask for them in an "useful and affordable potion". If you play a class that offers as much benefit to whole party as to themselves (bards, clerics) then part of the joy of playing those is seeing the difference you make. If you hand this out in a useful, affordable and long lasting form (potion, scroll etc) then the only difference you make is the coin in the party's pockets.
I appreciate and I sympathise with your frustration, but regardless of how or why the result is the same. If you make core class abilities easily available to all other classes you devaluate the class. AND then you take away some of the joy of playing said class.
Now armour with benefits for warriors and drawbacks for casters are something else. Swords that make you immune to knockdown... well perhaps they ought to make you dumber? A few new feats wouldn't be bad either -- Dragon Age has a number of warrior abilities that could be translated into feats. All of these things are fine by me; just don't make classes redundant by copying out their core abilities...
XB
P.S. Ben: if it was up to me Layo experienced a world wide pixiecide...
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So since you say you are not trying to derail the thread then we agree that this thread is NOT about casters and we can stop talking about them and go back to dealing with getting buffs to melees and how it can work for crafters. Thank you for dropping the "this is not good for my caster" theme and getting back on track.
If you really look at the list of buffs you will see that a good number of the best buffs are left off, like spell resistance. Furthermore they are way less powered then the ones that come from PCs. All this does is give a melee group or PC a BIT more range in where they can go. Heck this would not be an issue if we all NEEDED each other to go places. But there is no way to enforce that and with our limited community it would reduce usage down to very very little.
Have some compassion for the players that are stuck due to these issues.
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So since you say you are not trying to derail the thread then we agree that this thread is NOT about casters and we can stop talking about them and go back to dealing with getting buffs to melees and how it can work for crafters. Thank you for dropping the "this is not good for my caster" theme and getting back on track.
I am at a loss for words: how can pointing out that your suggestion will have a negative impact on other classes be derailing? And if this thread is not about casters what is it about? Warriors or barbarians who want to cast spells?
If you really look at the list of buffs you will see that a good number of the best buffs are left off, like spell resistance. Furthermore they are way less powered then the ones that come from PCs. All this does is give a melee group or PC a BIT more range in where they can go. Heck this would not be an issue if we all NEEDED each other to go places. But there is no way to enforce that and with our limited community it would reduce usage down to very very little.
To improve upon a level 20 stoneskin, level 20 vestment etc you need a level 25 cleric/mage. Lets repeat that, level 25. So a buff that can only be improved by a level 25 mage/cleric is "way less powered..."? The level 15 spells only offer increased duration with caster level, the difference here between 15 and 20 isnt that great.
And what do you need spell resistance for? If you have neg. energy protection, true sight, mindblank, deatward and resist elements what spell short of a hellball or three will make any impression upon 400 hp plus barbarian or warrior?
Have some compassion for the players that are stuck due to these issues
It should be clear I do indeed have compassion for "non-casters" so please do have the consideration to consider the impact of your suggestions on other classes.
Thank you for not accusing others of "derailing" and "trying to misdirect" when they offer a different opinion from your own.
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You did not read all the posts did you? If you go back through you will see that I asked for NWN palette items to be added and Darkstorme was nice enough to go and make a list of the levels available in the NWN palette. Now those are the ones I am asking for.
As for negatively affecting other classes, that is exactly what I am try to avoid. Due to the gap issue some areas have already been changed and lone casters can no longer go in them and win the day. So that solution has (in a small way) reduced the size of the world for some PCs :(
So how about instead of shooting down suggestions and giving all the reason why it is no good you put on your positive cap and come up with solutions/suggestions to the gap issue. Besides the suggestion that you should always have to have a caster with you. My counter to that is casters should then never go anywhere without melees.
Oh and when was the last time you checked the average level of the server? You may be surprised to find that often it is over 25 (as I write this the avg level on cent is 26!). Maybe your suggestion is that for the higher duration buffs it should take higher levels to use them?
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Please keep the discussion civil.
I'm one more snarky post away from locking the thread.
This is not directed at anyone in particular, but let's keep the discussion to the merits or pitfalls of the idea, not one's opinion on the arguments, observations, motivations or experiences of anyone else in the discussion.
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Getting back to the idea at hand:
Thanks DS for checking the toolset:
The revised requested list of buffs to be craftable at these levels and for the crafting of said items not to take too many items to make so that they can be more available as wands, potions, and scrolls. The shops can sell the lesser versions which I believe they already do for most of them.
All ability stats cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 17th level
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 10th level
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 10th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 7th level
True seeing cast at 9th level
These are all available in the toolset but I have no idea of how difficult it would be to add them in the crafting stream.
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While I agree with both your points jrizz and xiao, I think that we should concentrate on what would be the best of the two. Using bottled spells might not be the best. Instead, using weapon that gives temporary bonuses, that are less stronger than the spells of level 20+ caster, might be the way to go.
Temporary in the form of limited uses per rest, like the helmet of armor 2. And those new items should be restricted to a few classes that are non caster classes. Of course, nothing we could do about the umd or multiclassing. But then again, when have we ever been able to do something about it.
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Doing it with potions, scrolls, and wands would get the economy going again for crafters of those things. Scribes have really very little market right now.
So what say you? Any chance we can get these added?
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All ability stats cast at 15th level
Flame weapon cast at 17th level
Mind blank cast at 15th level
GWM cast at 10th level
Haste cast at 10th level
Resist elements cast at 10th level
Neg energy protection cast at 15th level
Death ward cast at 7th level
True seeing cast at 9th level
Of this list, items are currently in game that provide Death Ward, True Seeing, Haste and an enchantment far better than Resist Elements. Flame Weapon at 17th level is only marginally better than a fourth-circle fire enchantment - and with a far shorter duration. Greater Magic Weapon cast at tenth level is equivalent to an adamantium/mahogany weapon, which are hardly difficult to come across. All in all, I don't really see anything in this list which would justify the amount of work required to add them into the game and rebalance the palette.
Moreover, I'm inclined to agree with the opinion that dragging some of the most integral spells of other classes into the "anyone can use them" realm is unfair to those classes and unbalancing in general.
That being said...
I would support increasing the yield of existing alchemical concoctions. As it stands, crafted potions are as expensive as they are because it takes a great deal of time and effort, and some hard-to-find ingredients, to make even a few potions. If the return per recipe were, for example, three potions on a success, rather than a single potion (with the whole batch being spoiled on a failure, of course), this could reasonably bring the existing, balanced potions to a wider audience.
But for the reasoning above, both in terms of balance and effort for limited return, I don't particularly support any of the spells Jrizz suggests.
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what item provides haste better then level 10? and what item provides TS better then level 9? and do they provide these more then once per day? I mean if you are talking about the flag of might for haste well that is usable for one fight and then once an hour. But all of this is just talk, since no other fighter class players has spoke up then I am guessing that it is not wanted. So unless some folks speak up I will start a new thread discussing Dev Crit the only fighter feat that brings a melee up to par with the destructive power of a caster.
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I didn't say "better than" for any of the spells, save for Resist Elements (since the item I'm thinking of provides Energy Buffer). I'm saying that there are items in place that provide the effects. (And by definition, any item that provides True Sight provides it at level nine; that's the only level at which it's available as an item property.)
All the items to which I am referring are either "charged" items or single-use items; in either case, they can provide as many uses per day as you're willing to expend.
Regardless, as I said - making potions more available, I'm all for. Creating new items to replace primary casters - not so much.
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Doing it with potions, scrolls, and wands would get the economy going again for crafters of those things. Scribes have really very little market right now.
So what say you? Any chance we can get these added?
The reason there is little market is as is.. well look at the player base. Most of the mages are already in the high mid -ends (level 17 and up).. so they don't need to buy anything. And unless you have UMD scrolls are not usable by most classes. Potions.. they require a lot of different component to make it worth it, and in reality due to that, it jacks the price up just because of the amount of work it is needed. Needless to say that I shiver at the idea of having 15 people log in with hundreds of different potions in their inventory.
In fact the only way to get a market rolling, would actually be have spell book be breakable after time. Armor, shield, sword lose the edge.. even break off if absolutely not taken care of. Then you would have a rolling economy. But as long as the gear stays in perfect condition for ever after, as if you just bought it. You will get an economy that is not working. Heck I remember when I was making infusing for the angels. Beside a few people in the guild, no one would actually by the wands, even if the price was a clear mark down from raven co for good reasons. Wands of fire brand, stone skin ect would have been great addition to what you are asking, and they are already available, but no one makes them a sales, because it never sold in the past.
Again, if there is no ware and tare (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=617), there is no need for a character to get new equipment, there for there is no sales being made, but to the very few alt chars that are being made, and that in essence doesn't really run an economy.
Needless to say that I shiver at the idea of having 15 people log in with hundreds of different potions in their inventory.
Having items that can be crafted, with a limited duration and usage per day, would surely alleviated the hundreds of potions. Like exceptional ability rings.. and new kind of weapon armors that could give some spell like effect for a limited time and very much so under power vs a caster so not to make their need disappear. Plus I bet it would require less space on the palette, compared to adding new potions that are not already craft able. Maybe wands should be made so they can be used by every one?
But all of this is just talk, since no other fighter class players has spoke up then I am guessing that it is not wanted.
And well, Feh is kinda a fighter class.. Ranger/rogue/Weapon master, no UMD. And no where high enough as a ranger to have lasting spells and powerful ones. So I am speaking out! ;)
//edit
makes me remember a show I saw on monster machine. There were talking of tree lugger truck. One of the best out there, had made (note the past tense) a truck so durable, so well build, that never broke down, that the company after selling a few thousands, went bankrupt. Because since their truck were so well made, there was no need for the companies to buy others as they were simply not breaking. So no new orders were being put out. This is actually what the layo crafting of jewelry, armor crating, tailoring, bows, weapons, shield etc.. is suffering.
// redit:
But to make sure what I'm suggesting is not in fact derailing the thread.
Having items that can be crafted, with a limited duration and usage per day, would surely alleviated the hundreds of potions. Like exceptional ability rings.. and new kind of weapon armors that could give some spell like effect for a limited time and very much so under power vs a caster so not to make their need disappear. Plus I bet it would require less space on the palette, compared to adding new potions that are not already craft able. Maybe wands should be made so they can be used by every one?
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Not meant to upset anyone, but my personal opinion here would be:
Forget about adding better versions of scrolls. The reason being because scrolls can be used to fill a wizard's spell-book and once known can be re-cast any time as long as the wizard has the spell memorized and the spell component (if required) at hand. As I see it, part of the fun of playing a wizard should be in findng hard to acquire, rare spells and sharing them only with those wizards who have earned implicit trust.
Potions that could help non-casters do a bit more in times when casters aren't available would be nice. They're generally 1-time-use items, and should have a cost that reflects how difficult they are to make, and how useful they are. As much as it might seem great to supply one's self with enough various potions to be able to solo once in a while, they shouldn't be so affordable or easy to acquire that such activities are sustainable on an every-day basis.
Wands and Staves could be given a bit more power/usefulness. Should they be useable by non-casters without UMD? I don't think so, in my own opinion. Perhaps they could be re-made to use more or less charges based on the strength (casting-level) of the spell as they're used. What I mean is, give the user the option to use their wand of fireballs to cast 2 really nasty fireballs at a effective caster level of 20 for the cost of 25 charges each, or 5 fireballs at effective caster level 10 for 10 charges each, or 25 fireballs at the lowest possible effective caster level at the cost of 2 charges each.
Now, as to crafting skills...
Firstly I've often thought to myself, like several others here have already posted, that many of the achemy items are rather useless for what you get versus time & material costs to make them. If there could be a way to scale the effectiveness of some alchemical products based on the crafter's skill in alchemy, it'd make gaining higher levels in the craft more worthwhile. For a time I played a character who used many alchemical thrown concoctions such as the alchemist's fire, choking powder, etc... but those types of items cease to be useful in later levels versus many of the things we have to fight. Heck, as a thrown weapon, alchemist's fire is nearly useless versus level 1 spawns and packs about as much oomf as a tiny firecracker when it should be more akin to a grenade. It's one reason why almost no one uses those types of items past level 7 or 8 or so. So why even have them, right?
I've tried Infusing as a craft too, and was pretty disappointed. It took me litterally months of active play-time to build up my infusing skill to the point where I could make my first wand of electric jolt (a level 0 cantrip!), and I don't even want to talk about the costs involved from the material standpoint. Granted, I didn't have the support of other players in gathering all my resources like those in guilds or regular partying-groups might have, and neither did I acquire my resources via trades (can you imagine Emwonk posting an add in the trade and Market Halls forums, and anyone actually understanding it?). To make progress I had to mine all my own gems, learn a bit of gem-crafting to make them useful for infusing. To do that, I also had to learn a bit of alchemy so I could make my own polishing oils and enchanting oils. I just couldn't afford to buy any of the materials, and was lucky most days to be able to affford replacing my tools if they broke. I even had to learn a bit of woodworking for making the shafts for the wands, eventually. Infusing, for me, boiled down to being something to do to pass the time when there wasn't anyone else on to role-play with. So yeah, I agree with the sentiment that it'd be nice to get a little more oomf for our efforts in some of the crafts, especially those that make limitted-use items. Tailoring, tinkering, enchanting, weapon-crafting, armor-crafting, woodworking and gem-crafting are pretty much fine the way they are, because many of the items once made give a permanent bonus, or long-time useability... but limitted-use or one-time-use items usually aren't worth the investment of time and resources. Not when many of those same items can be found fairly regularly as drops or bought in shops, anyway.
Ugh... I've started rambling a bit here, so I'll stop now. But these have been some of my own personal thoughts.
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Needless to say that I shiver at the idea of having 15 people log in with hundreds of different potions in their inventory.
Since potions stack, I don't think this would be an issue. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the lag caused by a stack of 10 was approximately the same as a single item...so if a fighter had 10 full stacks of Bulls Strength Potions he would have 100 potions with very little lag potential?
I think the earlier idea mentioning increased production of potions on success would be wonderful. I know my character would do a lot more potion making if that were the case, and it definitely would make it profitable for me from a time and resource expense point of view... :)
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I've tried Infusing as a craft too, and was pretty disappointed. It took me litterally months of active play-time to build up my infusing skill to the point where I could make my first wand of electric jolt (a level 0 cantrip!), and I don't even want to talk about the costs involved from the material standpoint. Granted, I didn't have the support of other players in gathering all my resources like those in guilds or regular partying-groups might have, and neither did I acquire my resources via trades (can you imagine Emwonk posting an add in the trade and Market Halls forums, and anyone actually understanding it?). To make progress I had to mine all my own gems, learn a bit of gem-crafting to make them useful for infusing. To do that, I also had to learn a bit of alchemy so I could make my own polishing oils and enchanting oils. I just couldn't afford to buy any of the materials, and was lucky most days to be able to affford replacing my tools if they broke. I even had to learn a bit of woodworking for making the shafts for the wands, eventually. Infusing, for me, boiled down to being something to do to pass the time when there wasn't anyone else on to role-play with. So yeah, I agree with the sentiment that it'd be nice to get a little more oomf for our efforts in some of the crafts, especially those that make limitted-use items. Tailoring, tinkering, enchanting, weapon-crafting, armor-crafting, woodworking and gem-crafting are pretty much fine the way they are, because many of the items once made give a permanent bonus, or long-time useability... but limitted-use or one-time-use items usually aren't worth the investment of time and resources. Not when many of those same items can be found fairly regularly as drops or bought in shops, anyway.
Ugh... I've started rambling a bit here, so I'll stop now. But these have been some of my own personal thoughts.
I fully understand you there, it took me months to get Rain where he was, and that is with the angels help for acquiring things. That point wouldn't change though. The non caster still would not be able to make them. What would make it more worth while for you though and any other person working the infusing, is if there was an actual market for them. But that wont happen as long as they will be closed up to umd users or casters. IF there is a broader availability then there is a better chance for them to be used. Give it more charges per uses, that is good, as long as it's not unlimited, else you do to infusing exactly what is killing the other parts of the crafting system.