The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: jrizz on December 17, 2009, 11:57:07 PM
-
So here we go :)
Let me open with questions to the world developement team.
Why has dev crit been left nerfed when even more mass death spells have been added and powered up?
What is the difference between a mass death spell killing a group of bad guys in one round and dev crit killing a bunch of bad guys in one round?
I mean a fighter still needs all the caster buffs to run into a battle so dev crit will still be tied to the spell rest cycle so why is it being treated as over powered?
-
well, then too many fighters will be running around with it and it won't be unique anymore :P
-
Better than none of them actually doing right now, don't you think?
-
Every Caster Class has it's one insta kill... And Even MONKS get a insta kill in epic levels... Can't we fighters have one now too!
-
Doesn't naming your weapon give you a chance to have an instant kill with one hit? Is that what type you are talking about?
-
Naming your weapon does NOT do that...
BUT THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!
-
Devastating Critical isn't nerfed. It's access threshold has been raised.
However, if we are to lower the requirements back to vanilla requirements, I'd seriously considering nerfing it to increased critical damage, not instant kills. Devastating Critical in its current form would throw most spawns out of whack for that character and such power should be left to the very few who focus entirely on it, not just get it as a perk due to low requirements.
Again, comparing a fighter to a mage with spells and actually expecting both to be on par in killing power is in itself a flawed assumption. In worlds with magic, mages and other magic-wielders will always be more powerful. Tuning magic down is a better approach than making everyone a killing machine with less effort.
So either we keep Dev. Crit as it is, or lower the requirements and nerf it. Otherwise all hell breaks loose and trust me, once most fighters get a taste of Dev. Crit. it will get old very fast and get boring when mobs go down to fast as they're not currently built for Dev. Crit. That would start a whole new chain reaction for the Team to handle and it's just not worth it in my book.
-
@Lynn. . No, what naming the weapon do, is to have a chance to add a bonus xp per kill, with the weapon, i don't know how that works but when one got the message of X has finished the job, the character gets a small bonus on xp for that kill . and yet this goes more on the topic since If you are playing a Fighther / Wizard and you do a mass kill spell you have the same chances to get the message on all the ones affected by the mass kill effect.
So... .
-
If you look at the notes on devastating critical in nwn wiki it says that some online worlds outlaw it (probably because its overpowered and throws off the balance of the game). I think we should be thankful that the team kept devastating crit as a epic feat and adjusted its accessibility.
As it is now I think if you plan your character out you can get devastating critical at around level 31 if your a fighter. If you change devastating critical back to the original nwn version you could potentiallly have a 25th level fighter with devastating critical! (havent actually run the numbers)
I personally like the idea that devastating critical is almost spoke of like its a legendary power and knowone has actually seen someone with this power, but that it does exist. I also enjoy doing physical damage more that having something die with one hit as a fighter.
I understand you want to try to get some balance back but not sure this is the route. I personally like better items and armor.
-
I like the way it is now. If you plan your character out right, you can still get it after level 30. It should be very hard to achieve and only for a warrior who sacrafices much.
Remember that a character with this feat will be having an unlimited kill chance on every single critical hit vs monsters not-immune to critical!
If you have ever seen someone use a weapon that "kills racial group on hit", it's insane how fast groups of monsters go down.
-
How come no one spoke up against casters getting even more mass death spells when that came up? I mean give us a break people. If Having a chance to kill a bunch of bad guys with one action is bad then it should be bad across the board!
-
It's not the same though. Even the most powerful of sorcerers only get a number of spells a day. Then they have to rest or use other resources. A melee character with devastating critical (especially properly built to have a lot of crits) can do this endlessly.
The fortitude save against it is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Strength Modifier. You do the math... That's stronger than any spell out there.
You asked a question originally though and directed it at the development team, and though soulz answered it rather eloquently and with all the proper arguments that such a feat deserves, I will simply add some Layonara history.
Way back like five years ago, a bunch of us balancer folk had to look at all the epic progression because the level cap was raised from 20. We had limited resources as we pretty much always have had in here. As the epics were slowly being passed, we had to balance out an overpowered feat to fit with Layonara's power level at the time. In time, there were a whole lot more epic leveled people and so caster progression was looked at because unlike a fighter or a rogue whose damage always goes up, for casters, only very specific builds would scale upwards.
Was it the best approach to do things? Nope. I will say however that there were a lot of background projects that were planned that never took fruit because of lack of personnel and other similar issues. However, all that said, from a development standing point, Devastating Critical is still the same. Extremely overpowered.
If we would lower the requirements, once again, soulz is quite right. We would have to reduce the save, we would have to change it from a constant thing. It would be too powerful as it is.
I know its kinda hard to always have to hear the same litany. But in this case its unfortunately true. The real way to bring melee and physical damage classes up to par would be adding things like the PRC content which has over 50 feats, not to mention a bazillion new Base and Prestige Classes. However, once again... Lack of people... People focusing on the MMO... And all that.
-
thanks pan :) deep down I know that dev crit is way powerful. But every day I play I watch casters take out whole groups with one or two spells while my PC gets bloody taking down one or two bad guys. I have tried to bring a number of ways to allow melee PCs to be more effetive and have as much freedom as any other class but alas they get shot down. I have looked at what the dev team did with spells to make casters more powerful. I dont know if folks knows this but many spells are more powerful on Layo then other NWN servers. Looking at this I thought at some point it would come around to be melee PCs turn to get a boost. Then came the addition of a bunch of new items and hey that was great. But following that it seemed the spawns also got a boost so it kinds balanced it out. Then came the lowering of the drops so it is now quite rare to get your hands on some of the items that melee PCs can use to get some spell effects. That and rulings like "only one flag of might per PC" took alot of wind out of the new item list.
So where do we go from here? There is no denial that there is a huge power gap between casters and melees. And yes there should be some gap but the gap is so wide now that melees are really not needed by casters after a certian level. So what can we do to bring some fun back to high level melee PCs?
-
That and rulings like "only one flag of might per PC" took alot of wind out of the new item list.
Some perspective...
First, the flag of might ruling was because people were farming and stockpiling them in order to get around the 1 use/60 RL minutes limitations that are built into the items. Had our players at the time exercised good judgment and responsibility, that rule likely would not have been put in place.
As for the rarity of the drops...they're supposed to be rare and special. If everyone has one of everything, then they're neither. And, at one point, the drop rates were far more permissive than they should have been due to a software glitch, and this went on for a month or two before anyone bothered to bring it up.
-
I fully understand about the need to keep the drops rare and about the flag ruling. But in another thread about making buffs more available it was pointed out that through items many of those buff can be had. But the items are drop items and they are rare or have limits of usage on them so once again it does not really fit the bill of available.
So really how can we give high level melees a bit more world?
-
I agree with davidhoff, because, well he's probably gonna be the only one with Dev. Crit any time soon heh...for great power, you must sacrifice a lot of things and plan it out so not everyone will be able to do it. Even if our PCs are already the elite of the world, if every fighter can run around one shotting things, then it's just kinda ridiculous. 30 str to cleave things in half seems about right anyway.
I think things are fine right now between the casters vs melee. Sure mages blow stuff up but it's a magic world and mages blow stuff up in magic worlds. It's like infantry vs. tanks and artillery and planes dropping bombs...the machines win. Always.
-
for great power, you must sacrifice a lot of things and plan it out so not everyone will be able to do it.
That would be great if it were equitable. Some classes get great power even if the builds are not perfect.
We really should not shoot something down just because one player took the time to do all the number crunching to dial in his PC just right so that if it does not perm by level 32 (31 if you dont take SMD) it will get dev crit.
And on that note if dev crit really is too powerful then why have it at all? Since as you can see a player can get it if they build perfectly for it. Oh and it does not take much sacrifice to get there, just stay single class fighter and pick the right feats and there you have it. If you want to really power build for it then go human fighter WM (then you have increased crit range and great cleave!) but that may put you off a feat or two. The point is that right now anyone can get dev crit. So the argument about packs of fighters running around endlessly killing everything really does not hold water. Either the feat is too powerful or it is not. If you really feel it is too powerful and one player gets the feat then that one player will be too powerful. What then?
-
Oh and it does not take much sacrifice to get there, just stay single class fighter and pick the right feats and there you have it. If you want to really power build for it then go human fighter WM (then you have increased crit range and great cleave!) but that may put you off a feat or two. The point is that right now anyone can get dev crit.
ahah! then just get it. It's fine now where it is. caster vs. melee, well, let the mages get their magey things. We can just be hardcore and be fighters and be proud about it....who cares if stuff is imba? :)
-
ahah! then just get it. It's fine now where it is. caster vs. melee, well, let the mages get their magey things. We can just be hardcore and be fighters and be proud about it....who cares if stuff is imba? :)
Because some of us have put more the three years into our PCs and the over all changes have affected us. Like when I started my PC the level cap was 20 and to get past that you had to have a ECDQ (much like todays WLDQs). Many of us did not have the time to put in to qualify for Epic so we made build choices based on that. There have been other changes to things that in years past you made build choices on. Sure if I had 32 levels to build from based on todays setting I would have dev crit for sure. But some of us are products of legacy settings.
-
How about if we make it an auto-feat for all former pirates named Kurn Blackwater? I'd like to get that before 36th lvl. ;)
-
So I have been testing Dev Crit in vanilla NWN and it is really not all that nuts. Once in a while the stars come together and you get to kill a few bad guys in one one round. On layo fighters with Dev Crit who ran into a pack of bag guys (level appropriate) without all the needed buffs would still have a very very high chance of getting mushed. So in short:
1. Dev Crit is not all that powerful since it is chance based and needs a lot of good rolls to line up.
2. Fighters with Dev Crit will still need to be buffed up to survive the majority of the time that Dev Crit does not fire off.
-
Another solution may be to get rid of Dev crit altogether and make oil of sharpness a permanent addition to a weapon. Thus increasing the crit threat range but not the crit power.
If that were to happen I would suggest making the ingredients a bit tougher to get. Like maybe a Mithril ingot instead of Addy.
-
I had similar thoughts on making it permanent, or at least longer lasting. The following is discussion held on this from 2005:
Keen will never be made permanent. Period.
The recipe was created to balance the power of the ability. It is at this point what the team considers to be fine, powerwise.
So the recipe will remain as it is for now, these components can be obtained all in mass quantities.
Complete Discussion:
http://forums.layonara.com/cnr-suggestions-discussion/97049-oil-sharpness.html
-
So I have been testing Dev Crit in vanilla NWN and it is really not all that nuts. Once in a while the stars come together and you get to kill a few bad guys in one one round. On layo fighters with Dev Crit who ran into a pack of bag guys (level appropriate) without all the needed buffs would still have a very very high chance of getting mushed. So in short:
1. Dev Crit is not all that powerful since it is chance based and needs a lot of good rolls to line up.
2. Fighters with Dev Crit will still need to be buffed up to survive the majority of the time that Dev Crit does not fire off.
While it's hard to say anything without knowing details of your tested build, Dev. Crit. is very powerful and still is so in Layonara as well.
1. It needs three decent rolls to be any good. Dependent on weapon choice and build this might vary a bit, but Dev. Crit with scimitars or any WM build will rip through mobs quick. All you need is a decent roll to threaten (15-20 for the above), a decent roll (10-20) to connect and dependent on the foe, a semi-difficult roll for the DC save.
Add in 4 attacks minimum per round, up to 6 or 7 with haste and two weapon fighting and boom, suddenly most things get struck down really fast and if the auto-kill doesn't trigger you still crit, inflicting tons of damage. Again, builds vary and so will the results somewhat, but saying Dev. Crit is not powerful is just not true, especially considering you have to build towards it.
2. How is they still need to be buffed up even an argument? It is an offensive passive ability, it's not supposed to make you invulnerable, but it does help a lot in cutting down masses of foes even quicker than a crit-happy build already can.
I'd also like to add that, yes, you are correct to state that Dev. Crit will never be as lethal as a high DC mass-death spell in killing power and killing concentration, but drop a haste and concealment on that Dev. Critter and it's only a matter of time and luck in rolls until everything gets mowed down quick.
-
I have been testing it on a number of builds the most powerful of course are the fighter/wm ones. And at no time has there been a test fight where everything got dropped in one round. You dont need one good roll you need a lot of good rolls in a row for it to happen.
Also to address another issue that this brings up for me is that it seems that the dev crit req was pumped to aviod what could happen with a super power build. I thought we were not about super power builds. So it seems those of us that dont build super power builds are being punished because someone MIGHT do a super power build.
Lastly it does not matter the mix of magic and a fighter with dev crit. Since when you have a mage with you you dont need to have dev crit, the mage will stun, kill, blind, or KD the bad guys for you and the fights are over fast. So the only time it really comes into play is if you are in a gorup of melee PCs (which we dont have much of on layo for all the reasons already stated) or if the casters in your group go down.
-
I have been testing it on a number of builds the most powerful of course are the fighter/wm ones. And at no time has there been a test fight where everything got dropped in one round. You dont need one good roll you need a lot of good rolls in a row for it to happen.
Dev. Crit has never been about dropping everything in a single round. It's not supposed to be that. Dev. Crit is the final step of a critical based build, helping that character sometimes top off the damage from a critical hit with an instant kill. Freak rolls like great cleave-dev, crit frenzies are about as common as getting all the kills with one weird for example. It happens, especially when you out-DC the group by a considerable margin, but it's rare.
Also to address another issue that this brings up for me is that it seems that the dev crit req was pumped to aviod what could happen with a super power build. I thought we were not about super power builds. So it seems those of us that dont build super power builds are being punished because someone MIGHT do a super power build.
It's the other way around. By raising the requirement to a very high number, it actually weakens the build because you sacrifice a lot of feats, ability points and essentially become a one trick pony. Bringing the requirement down to original levels would allow much much stronger powerbuilds to be built.
Lastly it does not matter the mix of magic and a fighter with dev crit. Since when you have a mage with you you dont need to have dev crit, the mage will stun, kill, blind, or KD the bad guys for you and the fights are over fast. So the only time it really comes into play is if you are in a gorup of melee PCs (which we dont have much of on layo for all the reasons already stated) or if the casters in your group go down.
Again, a very narrow point of view. If a group initiates battle with an equally difficult group of enemies, the spawn is usually large and tough enough to survive one wave of CC, not to mention counterspells and spells of their own. That's when Dev. Crit is the most valuable, not when you are grinding away in a melee-only group. As I said above, Dev. Crit is not meant to be a click-kill mechanism, it's meant to be that bonus to a crit-heavy build. You inflict tons of damage very often as it is, but forcing a succesful DC will occasionally allow you to move on even quicker.
-
On point one you made my point even stronger.
On point two, first of all this idea of it taking sacrifice to get to Dev Crit is way off. A fighter/wm who take 24 levels of fighter then 5 levels of wm then 3 more fighters can get to Dev Crit with many many feats to spare. Next It is very very clear that the req was raised to prevent power builders from getting out of hand, thus it was done to address the few bad eggs at the expense of the rest of the community.
As to point three I see what you are saying but Dev Crit is not really going to make that much of a difference in a well balanced group fighting a difficult spawn. It will make the melee PCs more useful in the fight that is true.
-
On point one you made my point even stronger.
Your original point being that Dev. Crit is not really powerful was not touched in my last response. I was merely responding to your last statement which for some reason sees Dev. Crit as some sort of miracle feat designed to be on par with mass-death spells and that's just not true. I was trying to clarify the point behind the feat.
On point two, first of all this idea of it taking sacrifice to get to Dev Crit is way off. A fighter/wm who take 24 levels of fighter then 5 levels of wm then 3 more fighters can get to Dev Crit with many many feats to spare. Next It is very very clear that the req was raised to prevent power builders from getting out of hand, thus it was done to address the few bad eggs at the expense of the rest of the community.
32(!) levels of focused character development, effectively denying your character of any absorbtion and hit point pool, getting less essential feats than a full-breed fighter could and therefore losing out most multi-classing opportunities and flexibility is my idea of sacrifice, yes.
Regarding the bad-egg argument, I disagree. I think with Dev. Crit the decision is much more so because it is a nightmare to balance. As it was previously mentioned as well, it's a feat that has seen a lot of discrimination in various other worlds as well just because it makes it very hard for developers to design encounters due to it's unpredictable nature.
I do agree though that power building or just focused building tends to make things worse on the balance side.
As to point three I see what you are saying but Dev Crit is not really going to make that much of a difference in a well balanced group fighting a difficult spawn. It will make the melee PCs more useful in the fight that is true.
At level 32 as you previously mentioned, a difficult spawn will have immunities, reductions and resistances all over the board. In addition there are spellcasters in encounters and the general HP pool is much much deeper.
In difficult spawns it is more often than not a race against time vs healing, so every kill counts and the quicker they come the better. Dev. Crit would make all the difference if you could luck out and insta-kill that heavily resistant melee-mob or that 1000 HP spellcaster who is usually concealed away.
-
32(!) levels of focused character development, effectively denying your character of any absorbtion and hit point pool, getting less essential feats than a full-breed fighter could and therefore losing out most multi-classing opportunities and flexibility is my idea of sacrifice, yes.
The 5 levels of WM far out gain the 5 levels of fighter. The special abilities, especially the increased multiplier is HUGE. The Hit Dice of a weapon master is the same as a fighter and so is the BAB. Weapon Master is hardly a sacrifice, in fact it is one of the few prestige classes in all of D&D that is a direct improvement with little to no multiclass negatives. The path of feats you have to take is about the only argument IMO as to why it is a sacrifice to be a WM. However, the dodge, mobility and expertise are great feats on layo.
-
The 5 levels of WM far out gain the 5 levels of fighter. The special abilities, especially the increased multiplier is HUGE. The Hit Dice of a weapon master is the same as a fighter and so is the BAB. Weapon Master is hardly a sacrifice, in fact it is one of the few prestige classes in all of D&D that is a direct improvement with little to no multiclass negatives. The path of feats you have to take is about the only argument IMO as to why it is a sacrifice to be a WM. However, the dodge, mobility and expertise are great feats on layo.
No arguement there, WM is a very powerful PrC. Also I agree that it's only drawback is the hefty feat requirements which in combination with required feats for Devastating Critical drain a build of roughly a dozen feats plus several more for Greater Strength, leaving little to none room for feats that provide flexibility, heck you might even have trouble picking SMD if you needed it. It's only my personal opinion that such an amount invested into required feats is a sacrifice in versatility.
Also regarding Dev. Crit, you need 7 WM levels to get the most out of it, the multiplier is moot in comparison.
However, getting back on track, lowering the requirements and changing how Dev. Crit works would be more than welcome, because having a feat that almost no-one can use offers very little value to the game itself. Since orth took the time to work some other similar feats, it's definitely something that could be looked in.
For example, changing so that Dev. Crit adds an even bigger bonus to critical damage or perhaps even a portion in a rare exotic damage type. This would be a lucrative feat to go after, offering a huge boost in damage and lethality.
Another option would be to change the DC effect into paralysis instead if instant death, something that would contribute heavily for fighters tanking ability.
Hence, my idea would be to discuss possible changes to the feat to make it available, instead of discussing whether or not it is overpowered. The matter of the fact is that Layonara isn't built for vanilla Dev. Crit.
-
Here is another idea, well more a compromise. Since Jrizz makes the argument that he made his character based on old requirements for Dev Crit. How about we make it that you need complete a CDQ to get Dev crit early. I say early but I mean the original requirements. The requirements for the CDQ would be that you would need to have created the character before the higher requirements for dev crit were added. Like being a dragon called.
This I believe would solve the issue and add a RP reason to the devistating attack.
-
So it seems those of us that dont build super power builds are being punished because someone MIGHT do a super power build.
With full respect to your request and what is clearly a large amount of thought you have put into the request and your arguments in support of it, statements like this sort of cheapen the whole thing and really point fingers where none should be pointed.
The development and balancing team was not out to "punish" anyone, power-builders or not. To suggest that is insulting to the equal, if not greater, amount of thought, given by more than just one person, into the balancing of the world as a whole, not just one feat, class or type of class.
While it is true, we have had to take somewhat "punitive" measures when a small cross-section of the server population has behaved poorly and refused or ignored all requests to adjust their play-style (i.e. the few ruining things for the many), the idea that we would actually "punish" those who are doing what we encourage (i.e. builds that are more RP than mechanics) is, as I said above, somewhat insulting.
I strongly encourage re-reading Pan's comments, which I have quoted below. The amount of thought and consideration that he and others like Forsetti put into the overall world balance should not be easily discounted.
It's not the same though. Even the most powerful of sorcerers only get a number of spells a day. Then they have to rest or use other resources. A melee character with devastating critical (especially properly built to have a lot of crits) can do this endlessly.
The fortitude save against it is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Strength Modifier. You do the math... That's stronger than any spell out there.
You asked a question originally though and directed it at the development team, and though soulz answered it rather eloquently and with all the proper arguments that such a feat deserves, I will simply add some Layonara history.
Way back like five years ago, a bunch of us balancer folk had to look at all the epic progression because the level cap was raised from 20. We had limited resources as we pretty much always have had in here. As the epics were slowly being passed, we had to balance out an overpowered feat to fit with Layonara's power level at the time. In time, there were a whole lot more epic leveled people and so caster progression was looked at because unlike a fighter or a rogue whose damage always goes up, for casters, only very specific builds would scale upwards.
Was it the best approach to do things? Nope. I will say however that there were a lot of background projects that were planned that never took fruit because of lack of personnel and other similar issues. However, all that said, from a development standing point, Devastating Critical is still the same. Extremely overpowered.
If we would lower the requirements, once again, soulz is quite right. We would have to reduce the save, we would have to change it from a constant thing. It would be too powerful as it is.
I know its kinda hard to always have to hear the same litany. But in this case its unfortunately true. The real way to bring melee and physical damage classes up to par would be adding things like the PRC content which has over 50 feats, not to mention a bazillion new Base and Prestige Classes. However, once again... Lack of people... People focusing on the MMO... And all that.
In addition please remember the following:
NWN itself is not well-balanced, but does OK from levels 1-20. Above that, there are some pretty real problems. Epic progressions tend toward more power for classes that wield it and a more linear and modest progression for those that don't (i.e. non-casting classes). In the OC and expansions, power above level 20 for the pure melee builds came primarily from items and equipment (+9 this-and-thats, etc.)
For better or worse, much of Layonara that we still have was designed before Epic levels were even a possibility. For the most part, everything else that has been done to adapt to Epic levels in the world has been a "bolt-on" sort of deal. When we were getting v3 ready back in 2006, Pan and I talked several times, with Leanthar, about taking a look at every spell, class, feat, item and creature and devising a true and meaningful progression from level 1 to level 40. Unfortunately, given the workload involved with such a task, we realized that it probably would have added 6-12 months onto the project. Given that we have something like 2300 custom creatures alone, you can see how this would be no small task.
EDIT: Also, using Wren and making some assumptions on buffs and equipment, as he stands now, his DC would be something like 39 on a Dev. Crit. for the insta-kill. A similarly-spec'ed out caster tossing in a PWK, would have a DC of 38 (assuming I did my calculations properly), which is not that much different, but also remember that PWK is death magic, meaning one can have both immunity to the effect and resistance to the spell overall. Dev. Crit. has neither weakness.
So please, take the information presented here that is in opposition to your request and treat it not as resistance or even debate, but rather as exposing the grander picture than just "Well how over-powered can it be?" I know we all tend to look at things and generally apply the needs of our own characters to them. It's human nature to be sure.
And for full disclosure, my main character, also 32nd level, is a Sorcerer/Fighter/Spellsword multi-class who quite frakly would die quicker than Wren in most, if not all, of the places you're talking about due to build and equipment choices with which I am 100% happy to have taken. Do I sometimes wish for a much higher AC and/or BAB? Yep! Because once those spells fall, his AC plummets from around 30-35 to a much softer 15-20. And since he doesn't have GMW (again, by choice) or any other spells besides Bull's Strength that raise his BAB, to watch him go toe-to-toe with a lot of stuff that's out there on Belinara is pretty pathetic. It's an interesting build, but not one that's terribly survivable on his own in the usual "farms". So when going solo anywhere (which is bloody rare as it is), soon as his spells run out, he's a nice, juicy target. And no, he doesn't have PWK either.
Here is another idea, well more a compromise. Since Jrizz makes the argument that he made his character based on old requirements for Dev Crit. How about we make it that you need complete a CDQ to get Dev crit early. I say early but I mean the original requirements. The requirements for the CDQ would be that you would need to have created the character before the higher requirements for dev crit were added. Like being a dragon called.
This I believe would solve the issue and add a RP reason to the devistating attack.
Interesting idea, but it has a couple problems.
First, Wren was created (in 2006) after Dev. Crit. was changed to its current requirements (in 2005). Second, we couldn't just grant him the feat without changing the requirements for everyone. NWN would flag his character as "illegal" and he'd not be able to log in. It could in theory be put onto an item as a reward but a free epic feat like that on an item is more along the lines of a WLDQ reward, not a single CDQ.
-
And, to prove that history repeats itself...
http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/97498-dev-crit.html
-
I like the idea to add to the Fighter/WM/Duelist only Named Weapon script a chance that a random critical hit will be an instant kill. It could have a low % chance like the extra XP as well. OR maybe make that extra XP only off those insta-kill special criticals.
Does this sound possible?
-
EDIT: Also, using Wren and making some assumptions on buffs and equipment, as he stands now, his DC would be something like 39 on a Dev. Crit. for the insta-kill. A similarly-spec'ed out caster tossing in a PWK, would have a DC of 38 (assuming I did my calculations properly), which is not that much different, but also remember that PWK is death magic, meaning one can have both immunity to the effect and resistance to the spell overall. Dev. Crit. has neither weakness.
doesn't immunity to critical hits negates dev crit? so it does balance itself in a way when you compare it to the death immunities.
So yes it would actually be more balancing issue to work into the spawn. But if you put a few critical immune foes, then you ensure that the feat is not killing every thing in one spawn.
-
doesn't immunity to critical hits negates dev crit? so it does balance itself in a way when you compare it to the death immunities.
So yes it would actually be more balancing issue to work into the spawn. But if you put a few critical immune foes, then you ensure that the feat is not killing every thing in one spawn.
Yep, Crit. immunity would negate it, but outside of the undead circles, there's not a whole lot with this immunity. And that doesn't even begin to touch SR or other things that boost saves vs. spells.
Even so, putting in a "few" critical immune foes is a bit of an understatement. Even if we limited the scope of such to places where people with Dev. Crit. are likely to go, that's still dozens of areas, with even more encounters and creatures to review and potentially adjust. If an encounter is comprised of only a single creature type, then it becomes either an all-or-nothing situation in terms of crit. immunity, or we end up making up near-duplicate versions of each just to pepper in a few immune creatures.
Adding a more widespread crit. immunity also effectively makes encounters more difficult for everyone, actually taking power away from builds like Weapon Masters, as their critical threat range becomes useless for those creatures. And even for everyone else in the melee set, it simply makes them harder to kill by taking away that occasional extra damage that can really make or break any given combat situation.
We're talking about making one feat more available to...perhaps...half a dozen people. In doing so, we should not make the whole server, or large sections of it, more difficult.
-
True enough
-
Is it possible it could become a EPIC feat for the WM? Say for lvl 15 WM levels?
Not to limit it to just Weapon MAsters, but they are the class that is supposed THE class focusing on becoming SO good at a weapon that they get that extra crit range AND an extra crit multiplier. So just a thought...
Of course that makes it somewhat unfair to fighters and other classes, but they still have the option of the 30 str and such feat req.
I donno, I'm just throwing out ideas.
-
Not to cut in, but is changing the feat even on the table, Dorganath?
Because if it is or theoretically could be, perhaps we could aim this thread towards that area - what could we change it to, so that it could still keep it's relative exotic and epic nature, but still be realistic to get and not too overpowering.
As I briefly gave a few ideas before, how about those for a starting point of that sort of discussion:
- Make Dev. Crit add exotic crit damage to critical hits and lower it to STR 25.
- Make Dev. Crit have some sort of other incapacitating effect that has an immunity, but is still of great help to melee, such as paralysis or stun.
-
Maybe a Con drain? Or an automatic KD?
-
Not to cut in, but is changing the feat even on the table, Dorganath?
Because if it is or theoretically could be, perhaps we could aim this thread towards that area - what could we change it to, so that it could still keep it's relative exotic and epic nature, but still be realistic to get and not too overpowering.
As I briefly gave a few ideas before, how about those for a starting point of that sort of discussion:
- Make Dev. Crit add exotic crit damage to critical hits and lower it to STR 25.
- Make Dev. Crit have some sort of other incapacitating effect that has an immunity, but is still of great help to melee, such as paralysis or stun.
I haven't yet said, "No, we're not changing it." ;)
I try to take as few suggestions "off the table" as I can. One never knows where a good idea might originate!
As for this one in particular, keep discussing it. I'm looking for a workable, sensible solution that satisfies the accessibility issues as well as the overall balance issues.
-
One thing though, if you were to change the existing Dev Crit, would you leave the current feat available? renamed? An alternative is great, but would the original remain?
-
If I remember right skins are not calculated into the feats requirement no?
So if that is true here is my suggestion.
Lower the Strength requirement to 25, keep all the required feats as it is, and replace the auto death due to failed roll with a flesh to stone effect.
The 25 strength will still require some sacrifice, but will ensure that it is accessible by a larger group than it is now. And you will not risk to much unbalancing the spawns as you don't risk an auto kill.
A successful hit will then stone the enemy but not kill it, meaning that they still will have to hack it up, but now they will be able to prioritize their enemies, hence rp opportunities and tactics.
Putting it down at str 25, means that at maximum, if someone puts all their points into strength without a feat, they will be able to get it at level 28. If they take some greater strength feats, they can reach it at level 26. But since it's no longer an auto kill with success, it's somewhat less powerful than what it was before.
-
The whole idea is changing the original, not adding another one and leaving the original as it is ;) So the requirements of the original would be brought down, along with its punch, to be both more accessible and not freak out the people looking at it. So there is no "two feats" or "original feat," just changing the parameters and requirements of the one feat Devastating Critical.
-
I personally would like to keep the status quo as changing the feat would affect players who have picked or forgone feats/abilities in the past in anticipation of attaining or not attaning devastating critical as it is currently written.
That being said, if it does get changed I would propose the following:
At a strength of 25 devastating critical can be picked. The damage would be to stun the opponent for 1d4 rounds if they fail a save based on the forumla currently used by devastating critical. Also, additional damage of 5 magical/sonic to the opponent.
At a strength of 30 the feat reverts to its current form as it is currently written in lore.
p.s. I forsee alot of people wanting to change their feats and abilites around if this is approved.
-
Now if only Assassins got the Death Attack in the PnP manual rather than the "Death Attack" stun that NWN does. The real crime here isn't that it takes fighters so long to get an instant kill attack, but that rogues and assassins don't get one at all. Maybe a Finnessable Critical Feat on par with the Devastating Critical Feat, but Dex based rather than Strength? ;)
Bards get deathsongs ala Skald Levels, Fighter Classes get Death Attacks with uber godlike strength, wizards and clerics get death attack spells from mid-level on upwards... but no death attacks for the guy who trains in stabbing your spine or heart for quicker kills. Something wrong with this picture?
*pats the poor little neglected rogues on the head and tosses some coins in their beggars' cups*
-
hehe, quicker kill is not stabbing the spine or heart, think more .. well can't really write in on the pg forum, but there are much more effective ways than aiming for the heart. Cause really 70% of the heart is behind the sternum. Only a small portion of it protrude to the left under the 4-6 ribs junctions.
-
Back in my PnP days...there was a weapon called 'Vorpal blade'. Similar to the Dev Crit...but with one glaring exception...it was a +3 weapon. You needed the range of 17-20 regular hit chance and again with the same range for an instakill...less if you were able to buff.
My brother who was the DM decided that was a little overpowering...so his rule was natural 20s (no weapon bonuses...magical buffs or strength modifiers) were the only instakill...any other roll was just extra critical damage.
Could Dev Crit be worked to function in that way? IMO...it would keep the basic spirit of the feat...but weaken it enough so it can be taken earlier and wouldn't throw Layo off balance. Keep in mind...you would still have to roll the crit hit range and then roll the natural 20 and hope the creature isn't crit immune...
-
That is a good idea, but then again, I would add to this. The 20 should only be to fire up the fort save. That way even if you have the 20, then there is still a possibility that it fails.
example:
First roll = getting critical.
second roll= if critical is reach roll d20
Third= if 20 is rolled, roll fort save.
-
The development and balancing team was not out to "punish" anyone, power-builders or not. To suggest that is insulting to the equal, if not greater, amount of thought, given by more than just one person, into the balancing of the world as a whole, not just one feat, class or type of class.
I did not mean to say that the team took steps to punish anyone. I am sorry for it coming out that way. What I meant was that in order to keep power builders for getting out of hand choices were made like the Dec Crit one and thus those players that are not power builders lost something.
First, Wren was created (in 2006) after Dev. Crit. was changed to its current requirements (in 2005).
What you have to really look at is when was the Epic gate lifted. As I said before for those of us that did not think we were going to do the things needed to be approved for and pass a ECDQ we made choices about our builds. So it is more about the changes to leveling then when the feat itself was changed.
-
Dusting off this thread :)
I played on another server with a player whose PC had dev crit. I can now officially say without a shadow of a doubt that in its NWN regular form it is in no way what so ever anywhere near over powered. And for sure it can in no way deal the kind of mass death that even a mid 20's level layo mage can, not even close!
Now that I have seen it in action I am completely at a loss as to why on Layo it was changed at all. Dont get me wrong it is a very cool feat but a fighter with dev crit still wont hold a candle to a Layo caster.
Rant over ;)
-
I'm curious if any trials were done with a fighter using this feat against various mobs in a GM test area and the results charted and graphed before it was decided on removal? Just my own curiosity...
-
I'm curious if any trials were done with a fighter using this feat against various mobs in a GM test area and the results charted and graphed before it was decided on removal? Just my own curiosity...
It was not removed the str req was pumped to a high number (From base 25 to 30. Skin str does not count) that puts it out of reach unless you build specifically to support that feat. But the method of change is not the subject. The subject is why? it really is not over powered.
-
Ok.. Removal or out of reach... same thing in my mind. Method was not really the subject I was getting at. Anyway, I think the point I was trying to make was whether there was testing done and documented... which in essence would answer your question (Why?) :) Which means someone would be able to say Jrizz we tested this and it is overpowered because the data from our tests shows "x". If the tests were not done and there is no concrete data showing that the feat is overpowered, then I think your complaint should be entertained...
-
I play a F/wm/R on another server with dev crit (DC of 38 when str is maxed and a crit range of 13-20) and when I'm fighting level appropriate opponents I still don't kill nearly as many creatures in 10 rounds as the casters I've seen on layo do in one with weird/wail/etc. All it does is let fighters do what spell casters can already do. They can solo places where they might not have been able to before with a ~decent~ chance because even with dev crit, when I'm in places that give me even half decent XP (and I'm talking anything better than 30 xp per kill) I still die if i'm not ~very~ careful.
-
I played with stolen's PC that has dev crit. For each spawn of about five bad guys he got about one dev crit kill per spawn over about an hour of play time.
-
How about if it added a critical multiplier? Overwhelming critical adds a few hitdice to the damage on a crit, a devastating crit could go along the same lines and turn a x2 into x3, a x3 into x4... etc.
Or perhaps a d6 extra dmg for every 3 or 4 total character levels? At 30th that would be about an extra 10d6 dmg, just on par with the bonus damage that a rogue can do on sneak attack at lvl 20.
My problem with Kurn over Dev Crit is that I'll probably already damage things to death before the devastating critical death will kick in. At lvl 20 with 30 str (after gear) and two weapon fighting I hit 6x per round, 7 on a haste. I crit 13-20 x3 thanks to weaponmaster feats and my crits tend to range between 65-100. So by the time that little death-smite pops up, the monster's already dead from damage, or it is so uber that it would NEVER fail its fort save against it. More damage on the crit seems more useful to me honestly, than instadeath at a low DC. Damage stacks, damage and insta death do not.
I like the con drain idea Shiff posted, as a critical strike could feasibly mangle your organs to the point of a target losing health and vitality. It could be a nasty combo with Crippling Strike, and certainly not unbalanced in comparison. One drains on sneak attacks, the other could drain on crits. The method in which the fighter or rogue inflicted either would makes sense in combat stat terms. The rogue is sneaky, devious and quick enough to nip tendons and muscles to limit the target's strength. Whereas a powerhouse fighter would be crushing past the armor, through the vitals and damaging them, resulting in internal trauma to lungs, kidneys, livers, stomachs, intestines, etc. which are vital to health & survival. As it stands now, a devastating critical as an insta-death option may as well just be called quasi-vorpal.
Of course I miss when ALL critical hits were as complex as the old AD&D 2nd Edition Combat & Tactics expansion way back in the 80s. Roll percentile to choose the body part assaulted, roll a second percentile to see how badly. Blindness from hitting the eye, instant death from neck severing, severe head trauma from bludgeoning, heart stabbed through by dirk, die. I remember our group facepalming when the elf tried arching into combat and shattered the cleric's shield arm with a critical miss that became the critical hit on the party member. *evil grin* Ah poor Turin. The only one there with healing abilities and he couldn't cast somatic spells.
-
Of course I miss when ALL critical hits were as complex as the old AD&D 2nd Edition Combat & Tactics expansion way back in the 80s. Roll percentile to choose the body part assaulted, roll a second percentile to see how badly. Blindness from hitting the eye, instant death from neck severing, severe head trauma from bludgeoning, heart stabbed through by dirk, die. I remember our group facepalming when the elf tried arching into combat and shattered the cleric's shield arm with a critical miss that became the critical hit on the party member. *evil grin* Ah poor Turin. The only one there with healing abilities and he couldn't cast somatic spells.
We kept that even if we plaid with the 3.0 and then 3.5 edition. It just made sense.