The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hellblazer on February 01, 2010, 05:01:30 PM
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Okay, I know this may not be the best place for this, but this is a situation that I am getting tired of.
Firstly, I will write here right now, that I will not put a name in this thread. If any one wants to know. Come to me directly.
I have heard yesterday that someone is spreading lies about my dealings of emeralds in tells, to how many people I do not know.
But here is the deal. My emeralds has been sold as I posted in the market hall at 50 K a piece. Except on one occasion to someone who will be buying more than one. That time it was 40 k a piece.
I have not, and will not sell emeralds at 20 K a piece (that price is ridiculously too low for the amount of effort needed to get that rock), and that person who is lying about me, yes you know who you are, is probably spreading those lies because I refused to sell him some at that price, and I refused to exchange three emeralds for 1 deep red ioun stone.
Now truly I don't expect any apologies, nor do I want any. I just want the community to know of the lies that is being spread right now about this.
Manny.
PS. No it's not the someone that is having an Rp banter with Fehriel on the forum.
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Seems I have been put into a part of this rumor mill as well, that particular someone or someones is/are spreading rumors that I have also sold a lot of emeralds at 20k.
I wonder who all I have sold the emeralds to, when I have not? Please post here if I have sold you an emerald for 20k :P
This is getting ridiculous.
I do have sold 4 emeralds, 2 as Chakar, 2 as Görm, both at prices of 50 or 40k.
This I have not done due to greed. I have done this to get coin for things like potions, bandages and such. Also I have bought 2 items from an ingame shop on Dregar, which cost 50k and the other almost 80k.
I could always have grind the fire opal cave nonstop, but I do not think that is fair to anyone :P
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*laughs*:) :D
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I think this brings up a very good topic:
Pricing on the best CNR that is available.
In the past we had a price guide, that was replaced by trade guild pricing. As always there was/is a x% up or down around that de facto standard pricing. But for the most part folks stuck to it. In the past year or so pricing on drop items and crafted items has fluctuated greatly. In the past undercutting was not acceptable due to the shaky financial system of Layonara, this was done to try and keep some value on items and keep some kind of heath in the system.
Now we are faced with what looks like the beginnings of a serious break down. If the CNR that is used to craft the most powerful crafted items in the game gets devalued due to over mining and undercutting then everything below it suffers.
The solution here is to agree on a set price for emeralds in three forms raw, cut, or polished and for Mithril in two forms nuggets and ingots. And that we all stick to this pricing for ALL deals. This will help keep the pricing of crafted items that use that CNR up as well as not drop the pricing of all items and CNR below it.
So I propose (as a starting point):
Emeralds:
raw = 100K
cut = 75K
polished = 80K
Mithril
nuggets = 10k
ingots = 50k
NOTE: We also really need a price guide for drop items
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I agree for the emerald. I find the mithril a bit high.
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Wouldn't raw emeralds be worth less than polished ones?
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Price fixing:
An agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell the same product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand. The group of market makers involved in price fixing is sometimes referred to as a cartel.
Price fixing requires a conspiracy between two or more sellers or buyers; the purpose is to coordinate pricing for mutual benefit of the traders.
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Apparently you wouldn't get the dust with a polished one then, milty...
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Please tell me you arent calling this price fixing?
When its more about not allowing the games economy to go to cr@p.
Its at least what a 4 hour trip with the average group to get emeralds?
All i know is I would rather the players kept controll of pricing... than the Content Team making them a 6 hour, 8 hour, or lord knows what to get them to force the economy back into shape.
G-452
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Apparently you wouldn't get the dust with a polished one then, milty...
**looks further confused**
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Wouldn't raw emeralds be worth less than polished ones?
Since you can turn Raw ones into dust, and also get a dust from cutting the raw into a cut (in the process of making it polished) you therefore have more options as to what you can make with a raw emerald (IE acid damage with raw, resistances with dust, rings and such with polished) and therefore is worth more.
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You get the dust when you cut them. You don't get dust from the polishing part. But if you fail the polishing you can then crush the flawed gem that should give you roughly from 1 to 2 dust depending if you succeed at polishing them or not.
Please tell me you arent calling this price fixing?
When its more about not allowing the games economy to go to cr@p.
Its at least what a 4 hour trip with the average group to get emeralds?
All i know is I would rather the players kept control of pricing... than the Content Team making them a 6 hour, 8 hour, or lord knows what to get them to force the economy back into shape.
G-452
Depending if you get Titanium first. It can take up to 8 hours for that trip.
Price fixing:
An agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell the same product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand. The group of market makers involved in price fixing is sometimes referred to as a cartel.
Price fixing requires a conspiracy between two or more sellers or buyers; the purpose is to coordinate pricing for mutual benefit of the traders.
What Jrizz is asking here and which I totally agree with him, is that the cnr that gives the +3 and other post epic gear, should not be sold at pre epic and +2 pricing. It takes a lot more effort to get these. and seeing the emerald go for 20 k is really nuts.
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@ Guardian 452:
It is price fixing (if it happens). By definition.
note I did not express an opinion on whether it is good or bad. From a historical perspective it is an extremely accurate and roleplayable position, happened all the time in the middle ages. Still happens now but it's harder to catch.
but if a good is easier to get because of an abundance of high level characters on the server combined with an increase in the number of people who can work that good, thus depressing the rarity and therefore the pricing; then to set a price artificially to keep it high is to fix it. Price fixing.
I would hope the gm team would not respond by making it harder and harder to get, which would only punish new players and reward older ones.
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I would hope the gm team would not respond by making it harder and harder to get, which would only punish new players and reward older ones.
I hope so too, unless you take the easy way down, which beats the purpose of the place. You need a well balanced group. So I think the place is spot on on how it should be.
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The fact that you can make better things with a polished emerald vs a raw emerald, and the fact that it takes a certain amount of skill to polish a raw emerald would seem to me to make it worth more, though I agree that the more uses an item has, the more valuable it will be.
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I would hope the gm team would not respond by making it harder and harder to get, which would only punish new players and reward older ones.
The path to emeralds and the area itself that contains them were built to a specific design target, and that is where we are at. There is an intended range of levels and minimum group size that should be able to attain emeralds. While this is not a guarantee, it is, in fact what is in place. Above that, it should be easier. Below it, it should be harder or even impossible. If there is exploitation (and there was), we will change that (and we have), but so long as the design intent is being met, which I believe it is, then it will stay as such. The GM Team is not that arbitrary.
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For some perspective...
The 100K price for a raw emerald was an artificially-inflated price that had its origins back when emeralds could be found in Mystery Minerals from Greenstone deposits and actual mined emeralds were rarer than rare. Someone put one up for auction, it fetched a 100K price and the trend started.
Now that there are more 20+ level characters on the server and emeralds are more attainable, there is really no real economic reason for them to still fetch a minimum 100K price.
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*laughs*:) :D
i dont understand this point???
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For some perspective...
The 100K price for a raw emerald was an artificially-inflated price that had its origins back when emeralds could be found in Mystery Minerals from Greenstone deposits and actual mined emeralds were rarer than rare. Someone put one up for auction, it fetched a 100K price and the trend started.
Now that there are more 20+ level characters on the server and emeralds are more attainable, there is really no real economic reason for them to still fetch a minimum 100K price.
I agree 100k Plus for an emerald is a bit much however. And geting an Emerals from mining Greenstone... yeah that wasnt good (which is why it was fixed!)I also believe 20k is to little when time and effort to obtain are factored.
As it stands now I would bet there are people out there who simply will never attempt to go get emeralds because they can not devote 3 to 6 hours to sitting at their PC. However, even a level 1 character can make thousands daily gathering CNR that requires NO fighting at all. So it isn't about people not being able to afford 40k to 60k for an Emerald. It is about what each player here values his or her time. It's about being part of a world and wanting to make its economy work.......... *sighs*
Bah.....you know what..... I really should just shut up..... at least my Alts will get cheap gear at this rate, right?
G-452
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The lack of CNR that scales upwards with the characters seems as much a contributing factor as "undercutting." If there was something above emerald, players would burn more time trying to get those at greater difficulty instead, and it would be more likely that those getting emeralds would either be the ones using them right then, or selling them to those people. There are more higher level players, which means more emeralds, which means lower prices.
So... in that light, the fact that it IS the best that can be crafted is as much a problem as the price people are selling them for. They were the best when the server effectively capped at 20.
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I agree 100k Plus for an emerald is a bit much however. And geting an Emerals from mining Greenstone... yeah that wasnt good (which is why it was fixed!)I also believe 20k is to little when time and effort to obtain are factored.
As it stands now I would bet there are people out there who simply will never attempt to go get emeralds because they can not devote 3 to 6 hours to sitting at their PC. However, even a level 1 character can make thousands daily gathering CNR that requires NO fighting at all. So it isn't about people not being able to afford 40k to 60k for an Emerald. It is about what each player here values his or her time. It's about being part of a world and wanting to make its economy work.......... *sighs*
I agree with you there completely
Bah.....you know what..... I really should just shut up..... at least my Alts will get cheap gear at this rate, right?
G-452
Constructive opinions are always good.
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@RollinsCat
Yes, its price fixing... Giving it a name doesn't make it a bad thing.
When I first started here, there was much more rigid community enforcement of the pricing rules - anybody pricing goods significantly more or less than the community accepted prices (loosely based on lens prices) were spoken to ICly and OOCly... in my opinion, the economy was much healthier because of it. Again, in my opinion (and I know some people here may disagree with me), the way people have played looser with pricing (and giving away equipment) has played a large part in making the market as messed up as it is right now...
my 2c
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it also has a lot to do with the population.
We have a LOT of high levels, some mids, and the occassion new player/character...
Who needs these Emeralds, the people who haven't had 2+ years to get them...
And how many are out there? Yeah...
Supply and demand. How high is demand vs Supply? Demand Low/mid level... supply high... Economics, people... =\
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To Rollins..
Didnt realise you were just giving us a definition and I am sorry for any acusations I may have sent back your way from my own missunderstand of your post.
I had a rather long winded response about we the players stepping up and controlling this worlds economy rather than having steps taken for it to be controlled for us..... but I deleted it.
I just want to have fun here.. and I am going to do just that untill the day comes that in my eyes I can't any longer.
Untill then.... GAME ON! :)
G-452
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Supply high, demand low. price goes down I agree 100% this is how it goes in the real world.
What happens when the supply and demand is out of wack on say Oil / Gasoline? OPEC cuts back production and the price goes back up.
Simple Economics right?
How can we apply such a way to controll the economy to this world though?
If we cannot then things never get fixed.. it just gets cheaper and cheaper.... like I said... I shouldnt complain. My alts will be tricked out in +3 gear for next to nothing at that rate!!! :)
Will I risk my loosing my characters to perma death who I have spent months, days, years making on going to get a CNR substance that is then worthless?
Hmm.. tough choice... NOPE!!!!
Maybe that will be the deciding factor... when enough people stop risking their lives for something no one wants, that oughta bring the price up.
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Consider I got 4 Emerald dusts for a box of Eggs... I say we're almost there, G
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Back when emeralds could come from mystery minerals the emeralds would go for 150k to 300k. But sure maybe 100k is steep for now. So lets find a pricing that still keeps the system healthy.
Acacea has a very very good point in that if there was something higher it would change things greatly.
As another suggestion (not an alt to Acacea's) maybe we should shut off all drops and high level CNR for a few months to "clean" out the system :)
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What yo're asking is about the same thing as doing a player whipe. Not sure it's a good thing.
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It is nothing like a player wipe. Shutting off drops and CNR for a while would just force us to open our chests and sell off all the stuff we have stored away since the demand would really heat up after a bit of time.
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I actually like that idea... Just because...
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I think it is really disingenuous to only portray the act of seeking the high end CNR to be rewarding in terms of the final haul of raw goods. Yes it's a long path, but it provides for a journey where both a lot of rp occurs and a lot of experience points are attained for the 20ish level characters.
Real world economics get thrown out the door when you have a dying population and indestructible gear.
I think the question that needs to be asked:
Just who the heck is losing out here?
Are there players who are unable to afford certain gear to best equip themselves due to their dangerous adventures barely paying off with resale value being so low?
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and indestructible gear.
What I've been saying for a while.
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If you make gear destructible you should also make -all- gear/gear upgrades craftable, which I believe is impossible right now...
If the gear isn't craftable we would see a ridiculous benefit in drop fishing which is basicly greenstone mystery minerals turning into emeralds. Right now there are actually some drops that already work that way, but usually because of their rarity they are given to someone who use the item themselves.
But since the breakable item-code itself has been turned down for implementation, I wont believe that items will be made breakable in nwn. However if there will be a system with items that breaks later please make it so that getting the item in the first place is a matter of skill/time invested(ie. everything being craftable/100% drop from certain badie) and not some random slot machine.
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Supply high, demand low. price goes down I agree 100% this is how it goes in the real world.
What happens when the supply and demand is out of wack on say Oil / Gasoline? OPEC cuts back production and the price goes back up.
Simple Economics right?
How can we apply such a way to controll the economy to this world though?
You have stated the player-based solution yourself. Cut back on emerald production and you'll regulate the prices. The problem is you'll have to cut back a lot more and for longer since equipment doesn't just disappear. You'd effectively be waiting for more players to need the gear, which the players that already have won't give up because there's nothing better.
Essentially this would look like the Angels, the Orc Bashers, and other notable crafters to cease getting emeralds for a while. Similarly, the members of such groups, and their friends (which accounts for most of the epic/veteran player base), could agree not to help anyone get emeralds.
The funny thing here is that we don't actually know if any emeralds sold for 20k since both people approached about it refused the sale. Thus, it could just be a player who says he got emeralds for 20k in order to try and drive the priced of emeralds down. All this furor would be over nothing, then--a hypothetical situation at best.
It seems there is some hype about a market crash that will not actually take place as though this thread were "Emerald facts" and not "Emerald Rumours".
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Someone has openly proposed to sell them for 22 k. Just look at the market hall. And this thread was not to open debate on pricing, but to let the community know about lies being spread around on my account.
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And still there has been no one coming forth saying I myself or any of Hellblazer's characters have sold them emeralds for 20k.
And if there would be, I would like logfiles to prove it, as this kind of lying for just pitiful reasons borders on the lines of griefing. The person who has spread these rumors is likely simply annoyed because I could not stand the person in RL and blocked him on MSN.
And it seems he has not got enough guts to come forward either.
End of rant.
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[INDENT] We're not making equipment destructible at this point in the game. It's on deck for the MMO, as I've stated at least once, if not more, but it is not going to happen in NWN. As has been pointed out, destructible items require an associated support infrastructure (i.e. repair kits, etc.), which involves systems and palette space we don't have. Without such things, our only option is that when something breaks, you need a new one, and that is just a punch in the gut for a casual gamer who might have scrimped and saved for the gear he/she has.
So you can either lament or celebrate the fact that the items we have and will continue to have (except for "charged" items) will remain unbroken despite whatever day-to-day abuse we put them through.
[/INDENT]
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And still there has been no one coming forth saying I myself or any of Hellblazer's characters have sold them emeralds for 20k.
And if there would be, I would like logfiles to prove it, as this kind of lying for just pitiful reasons borders on the lines of griefing. The person who has spread these rumors is likely simply annoyed because I could not stand the person in RL and blocked him on MSN.
And it seems he has not got enough guts to come forward either.
End of rant.
While I can lament with your situation you're guilty of now spreading rumour and speculation with such statements.
By broadcasting your dismissal of the rumour through this thread you've done all that you need to do to the people that should matter to you. They can read it here and dismiss it.
If you must know who started it, follow the trail of who you heard it from, when someone tells you they forget who they heard it from or won't tell you who they heard it from then maybe re-evaluate your association with that person.
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Back when emeralds could come from mystery minerals the emeralds would go for 150k to 300k. But sure maybe 100k is steep for now. So lets find a pricing that still keeps the system healthy.
The first auction for such an emerald fetched a price of 100K, having started lower than that. Not long after, 100K became the starting price. Before that, no one would generally even sell emeralds because if they could get them, they kept them.
There was also a player who figured out a way to duplicate items using an exploit (since fixed), who happened to find such a mystery mineral emerald and kept trickling them out to the market every week or so.
The mystery mineral system was fixed not long after that to prevent high-order CNR from dropping out of low-order deposits, and the player in question was banned permanently for this and other less savory infractions, but the pricing stuck as the "standard".
Now here we are several years later, still clinging to the pricing started by a fluke and an exploiter. :)
So what's the right price? I don't know, but the market should decide this. In the current state of things, 100K and above is too steep, and in my opinion, it just encourages the grind for gold and drops to pay for such things. Is 20K then too low? I don't know...is it? If most of an emerald's perceived value is in the time and risk it takes to get there, and if the person getting them doesn't particularly mind either, then I suppose those things don't factor into their pricing. Or maybe a trip to get them got lucky and pulled a higher-than-average number of stones from the deposits. Who knows? Probably somewhere between 20K and 100K is most appropriate, but I don't particularly see the need for a globally "set" price for the raw materials.
Finished goods are another matter. They do have a mechanical value that's tied to the item level requirements. These goods should sell for the lens value in all but a few exceptional cases (i.e. things like Strength tomes that come from the epic drops and have a very low computed value but a very high mechanical value). Some of these items are made from emeralds, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the base raw materials are priced super high, so too will the finished goods be priced, and that starts to push things out of the reach of those people who can use them and will benefit from them, namely characters who are level 17 and up. Again, price inflation just encourages (and even necessitates) the grind, and not everyone can or wants to grind.
As another suggestion (not an alt to Acacea's) maybe we should shut off all drops and high level CNR for a few months to "clean" out the system :)
I'm not sure how that would "clean" anything out. It would make the CNR that exists now skyrocket in value and any other drops would remain in the hands of those who already have them. *points up to the non-breakable items chatter* If you mean then those who have such things could sell them, then we just have an economic environment where goods are at a premium because of an artificial rarity and prices will go up.
As orth pointed out though, there's very little "real" economic forces at work. In a normal economy, there would be something keeping prices down as well as up, and there would be normal and perhaps periodic fluctuations. We haven't had that because of the fact that there is a virtually endless supply of gold and drop items with almost no sinks into which they disappear. The best we have right now is donations and housing remodels.
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:(
I remember when emeralds had enough value that I could trade them for hugs.
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:(
I remember when emeralds had enough value that I could trade them for hugs.
You dont need an emerald, just ask... Keppli will give you a hug for free :D
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Yeah, sorry about the earlier post *nods* I had just woken up and was grumpy. But what's done is done and I can't take it back.
On the other hand, the emeralds' selling value dropping from 100k and so forth to around 50k on my personal posts on the Trade & Market Halls, I can say that I have not dropped the price for greed. I have dropped my personal prices (as you can see from the old posts I made as Godim and the more recent ones as Chakar and Görmungard) have low value on items, something akin to the lens value. This is so, because I wanted to contribute for the lower levels that actually can still benefit from such items as a Cloak of Resistance +2 for example, and make it available for them for a more or less fair price.
I am not saying that people have accused me of greed, but that is how I have felt at times (must be partially due to my mental state depicted in a post I will not link here, but it is available for the public).
Heh, if I would have wanted a fortune, I would have sold the cloaks and whatnot for a 3x, 4x, 5x or so forth higher price, and still people would probably have bought them.
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20k emeralds eh? where do I sign up? The labor alone on them once you already have them is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. 60k to cut polish enchant or set them, more than what I feel a raw emerald should be worth in itself.
Cheapest labor I've found is 10k to cut, 10k to polish, 10k to enchant and 10k to set, for 40k per emerald, raw to ring. And that's after some serious digging. So I really doubt there are any 20k emeralds out there.
Whatever somebody wants to sell something for is their own business. If price-fixers are getting killed by somebody else's undercutting, then they should review the laws of supply and demand and expect the price to drop now that more teams are risking the death token loss, 5-6 hour trip, the drive and the effort to train up to a sufficient level to survive those caves, and the handling of all the most notorious races of the deep. They made the trip, they expended the labor and ultimately they dictate the prices for with they feel that is worth.
If somebody has a problem with the price of emeralds, then they can go pick up the chisel, assemble the A-Team and go mine some emeralds and price em themselves. Just don't go looking at other people's property that they worked long and hard for and dictate what they are allowed to do with it.
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Someone has openly proposed to sell them for 22 k. Just look at the market hall. And this thread was not to open debate on pricing, but to let the community know about lies being spread around on my account.
I have looked at posts in the market hall which used the word emerald for the past year. At no time has someone proposed to sell them for 22k. Someone has proposed to buy them for roughly this price (give or take 1 or 2 thousand), but no one has agreed to sell them as yet.
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Well it is good to hear the views of the community on pricing :) I withdraw my request for fixed pricing :) or item prices lists. A free market it is!
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Just out of curiosity... if this guideline for the resale value of CNR items is considered "price fixing"... then what the heck is the deal with banks and their interest rates being set by the Federal Reserve (which is a private institution and not a government body)?
What about the insurance industry? Insurance companies collaborate with eachother to establish "fair market value" for their sub-trades (ie: roofers get X, carpet installers get Y, etc).
There are plenty more examples of real world "price fixing" that is perfectly acceptable by society because these "price fixings" help maintain a stable economy for all.
Following the logic presented by some in this thread; 90% of what holds our economies stable is the work of evil cartels so let's fetch the pitchforks and torches and storm their castles! (ok maybe 90% is and exaggeration but you get the point.)
All sarcasm aside...
I have no problems with a generally agreed upon price list that's used as a guideline for the entire community. It's not easy to get the top-end CNR items and people should have some perspective on that. By no means should that be a "hard and fast" price list, it should be a guide. If you want to sweat it out for a handful of emeralds and sell 'em for 1/2 or even 1/3 their market value... that's your problem and I'm sure you'll have plenty of buyers lining up, just do not under any circumstances expect anyone else to sell at those same prices.
EDIT: Just to be clear; if there is a guide desired, the community should establish the guide, if no one follows it I don't care, if everyone follows it... again I don't care... I just loathe when people go to extremes with their "logic" when in fact their arguments are contorting reality to suite their own personal world view.
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What about the insurance industry? Insurance companies collaborate with eachother to establish "fair market value" for their sub-trades (ie: roofers get X, carpet installers get Y, etc).
This is incorrect... "Collaboration" is illegal and carries huge fines. Insurers actually use common databases from company's such as Marshall, Swift, and Boeckh that are updated monthly by zip code. Adjusters write estimates and use these as a basis to negotiate an agreed scope and cost of repair with local contractors. I have some contractors in certain trades that I have to pay more in some areas then others because they are the cheapest in that area. The same trade could be much less in a more economically depressed county or zip code. In winter seasons costs go down because work is leaner. Summers it is higher. Supply and demand.
The government also has to approve any rate filings for increases for premiums, and they have to be justified and fiscally correct in relation to the company's solvency or they are denied.
Bottom line, fair market value is exactly that... whatever can be negotiated down to the cheapest dollar. No collaboration factors into the picture. :) LOL I hear that same argument all the time by many people, they just are not educated in how things actually work. I'll get off of my soapbox now. Hehehe.
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This is incorrect... "Collaboration" is illegal and carries huge fines. Insurers actually use common databases from company's such as Marshall, Swift, and Boeckh that are updated monthly by zip code. Adjusters write estimates and use these as a basis to negotiate an agreed scope and cost of repair with local contractors. I have some contractors in certain trades that I have to pay more in some areas then others because they are the cheapest in that area. The same trade could be much less in a more economically depressed county or zip code. In winter seasons costs go down because work is leaner. Summers it is higher. Supply and demand.
The government also has to approve any rate filings for increases for premiums, and they have to be justified and fiscally correct in relation to the company's solvency or they are denied.
Bottom line, fair market value is exactly that... whatever can be negotiated down to the cheapest dollar. No collaboration factors into the picture. :) LOL I hear that same argument all the time by many people, they just are not educated in how things actually work. I'll get off of my soapbox now. Hehehe.
Ok, I wasn't meaning in a literal/direct sense of "collaboration" but rather this... if an insurance company pays their installers X, they don't pay other installers (of the same trade in the same region) Y (with exceptions per job based on mitigating factors of course). Also, I work in the insurance industry in Canada and for flooring there is at least one consortium type group that helps regulate the sub-trade fees via price guidelines for the benefit of the insurance companies. The insurance companies can use those values or not however by following the guidelines there are a number of benefits... one being that insurance premiums have less fluctuation, two being that contractors are held to a higher standard of workmanship, three being that sub-trades of general contractors have a clearer means of collecting on unpaid invoices by having direct channels to those that pay the general contractors and fourthly the insurers have a means of negotiating better deals on materials with manufacturers (through the intermediary group).
So yeah, perhaps some of what I stated is not concrete or 100% accurate but I did not base my remarks on speculation either. Granted, I'm not American and so have little direct experience with that insurance market.
As for the other things, I did not mean to imply that there are hard-fast rules for anything but rather that there are "guides" for general markets (that of course fluctuate with supply and demand) but regardless there are still guides. So, if people want to publish their own guides for CNR, I have no qualms with it being used or not or whatever.
People just need to chill out and play the game rather than cause everyone grief.
(Aside: Sometimes I have to really question myself as to why I read/comment-on the forums for anything other than bug reports.)
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(Aside: Sometimes I have to really question myself as to why I read/comment-on the forums for anything other than bug reports.)
Yeah, I wonder why you do to! ;)
ESPECIALLY the bug reports. :p
*hides*
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Feel the love! Group hug!
*wicked grin*
The above comments are spoken in jest. Please keep a safe distance and your non-trolly paws off me. Thanks and have a great day!
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Yeah, I wonder why you do to! ;)
ESPECIALLY the bug reports. :p
*hides*
Ha
ha
heh
:rolleyes:
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Dude.. didn't mean to upset you. ;) Just speaking for my group of nine companies, we do do it differently... but I'm sure there are a lot others out there that do it your way. I thought you were being literal... text is a bad medium for conveying intent at times. Was just making a comment on my perception of that.
If I caused you grief.... please accept my apology as it was not intended. :)
To your aside: Don't question yourself, just comment and respond, points of view are appreciated even if they are contrary to what others believe. LOL
Ok, I wasn't meaning in a literal/direct sense of "collaboration" but rather this... if an insurance company pays their installers X, they don't pay other installers (of the same trade in the same region) Y (with exceptions per job based on mitigating factors of course). Also, I work in the insurance industry in Canada and for flooring there is at least one consortium type group that helps regulate the sub-trade fees via price guidelines for the benefit of the insurance companies. The insurance companies can use those values or not however by following the guidelines there are a number of benefits... one being that insurance premiums have less fluctuation, two being that contractors are held to a higher standard of workmanship, three being that sub-trades of general contractors have a clearer means of collecting on unpaid invoices by having direct channels to those that pay the general contractors and fourthly the insurers have a means of negotiating better deals on materials with manufacturers (through the intermediary group).
So yeah, perhaps some of what I stated is not concrete or 100% accurate but I did not base my remarks on speculation either. Granted, I'm not American and so have little direct experience with that insurance market.
As for the other things, I did not mean to imply that there are hard-fast rules for anything but rather that there are "guides" for general markets (that of course fluctuate with supply and demand) but regardless there are still guides. So, if people want to publish their own guides for CNR, I have no qualms with it being used or not or whatever.
People just need to chill out and play the game rather than cause everyone grief.
(Aside: Sometimes I have to really question myself as to why I read/comment-on the forums for anything other than bug reports.)
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Dude.. didn't mean to upset you.
Nah, you didn't upset me at all... it's just the general feel of this thread that's irked me into that foul mood conveyed through the obviously poor medium of text.
:)