The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Guardian 452 on February 07, 2010, 10:47:00 AM
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Hey all
I wanted to toss a couple more ideas out and see if they were possible for here. The two ideas kind of go together.
1. Teleportation (for all characters). I had this idea after my second all nighter going after things in The Deep. And the impending "LOOKS" i keot gettig throughout the following days by my wife.
In EQ2 everyone had the ability to use a spell called "Call to(your home city)". It was useable once evey 45 RL minutes. Would something like that be possible here? But probably on a much longer re-use timer? Or perhaps teleport locations in the world you can go to rather than spend hours and hours retracing your steps.... the in game teleporters ties directly into #2
2. Zone Lock Out timer. A zone lock out timer would be for say places in the deep or dungeons etc. What it would do is once you have been to said zone. Once you leave you cannot return for "X" amount of time. That would depend on what the zone was all about. Say anywhere from 8 hours to up to 24 hours or more if the team saw fit lockout.
Why add these ideas? I dont believe every player has 4 to 8 in a row to spend at their PC and make an attempt at getting Mithril, or Emeralds, or say some really awesome dungeon way off someplace. These ideas would allow them to get there but esentially taking the round trip time and cutting it in half. And because it is now so much shorter... adding a lock out timer would keep things in check I beleive.
I believe both of these ideas are possible with NwN. Certain classes in the game can teleport already. And we have zone lockouts that are tied to level, or if you have an item in your inventory. So I dont think it would be too tettible difficult to make a working lockout system (lol yeah I say that from the outside looking in) :)
Thanks
G-452
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I just mined 200 nuggets of mithril and got 25 emeralds... Now all I need to do is use my scroll and I'm safety teleportong home without any danger....don't think this would work, just too unrealistic, even for d&d
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Exactly what danger will you face on the way back that wasnt the exact same on the way down? Unless a GM decides to add some color.
The only "danger" is falling alseep cause you've sat at your PC for too long. and then cause the group to wipe because of it.
This is Exactly why #1 cant happen without #2.
You got 200 Mithril and 25 emeralds... great now split that amongst the party... unless you soloed all that. how much do you have now? oh and ... you are locked out of going to get either with this toon for 24 to 36 RL hours becuse of the Lock Out Timer.
As it stands now nothing is stopping me from going every single night, and getting as you say... 200 Mithril and 25 emeralds if I can find a group to do so with me.... and if my wife doesnt kill me for all the all nighters.
Which is sounding better now?
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This assumes that that content is supposed to be accessible, though, and that all players, or more of them, should be able to eventually access it. I don't know that that's the case.
That is, you could have got it exactly right that the zone's length is intended as a gauntlet of sorts, testing the player's endurance in a 4-8 hour trip. Plenty of MMOs include raids of this length. Of course, the most popular MMO also implements both of these ideas, but it also has the skimpiest RP out there.
What winds up happening with the timers is that the big guilds set up schedules from there and do raids Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. What you're essentially doing is making the trip shorter, but making the time in between trips potentially longer. This assumes that the deep gets raided every night by the same people, though. That's possible, but I'm not sure if it's the reality, and if it is, then I would support the implementation of idea two without idea one. This is an area that nightly raids shouldn't be happening in.
Back to the original topic, though, I could see a lot of potential for abuse just on the basis of saving time. Let's say I set my "call to wherever" in Krandor at a lower level. That would significantly reduce the amount of time the Packagemaster takes to do.
That just boils down to whether or not one sees the intended payoff as greater than the potential problems, though.
The biggest issue is my first point. I don't think this content is meant to be that accessible. I think it's likely that when the area was under development the team considered not just creature difficulty, but pace, going in and out again, so it might really be "working as intended" as the saying goes. So as far as modifying that goes it might just have to be, "Do I have the time to do this?" If not, don't go.
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Teleportation by all characters? Well, I know mages work their butt off to reach 14th level to obtain the Tome of Teleportation, and it will take you to only one previously marked location.
If some type of teleportation were offered to just anyone, to be fair it should be used by only 14th level and above, be one time use and then *poof*, take you to only one previously marked location, available only at a vendor, and be insanely expensive (50,000 true). Otherwise, it cheapens a primary benefit of the classes that have it now and pretty much defeats the intent behind the current travel systems in place, ie. boats and portals. Would be a good "gold sink."
Never tried it before, but unless there is some mechanical code in place, buy a housing portal, set it and abandon it at your camp in the deep... Do not see any RP reason why you cannot do that, and does not seem like it could be classified as an exploit, at least at this point in time. Would be concerned about an Army of Dark Elves using it to access locations on the other end though... LOL ;)
Personally, I think if you want to teleport, play a mage or druid.
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I do agree that absolutely no CNR trip should last more than 2 hours. And even that is excessive... I would place the limit at 1 hour. If we are supposed to be a Family Server, then we should also take a look at how much time is taken away from the family-time. If a kid wakes up at 7am, gets to school by 8, gets out at 3pm, has football practice till 6pm, three more hours of homework till 9pm and his bedtime is midnight, he is NOT ever going to be able to go there, save for the weekends. Same with a full time worker who wakes at 7, gets to work by 8, works till 5, gets home at 6, grocery shopping/chores till 7, then you have 7-midnight. Close, you could only pull it off if you had it scheduled in advance. What usually happens is I see the trips leaving around 9pm, so I have a choice... get mithral and lose my job from sleeping in the next morning, or not get mithral. And if you DO get mithral that night, its fairly certain you have spent 0 hours family time for the day. Compact that with needing 4 nuggets for an ingot and 10 ingots for a fullplate, then you have a few realtime months of realtime family time lost.
CNR needs to take less bloody time! It needs to be less exclusive to the college student/non full-time worker. It needs to be something fun in the game vs. a full time job in itself. A few suggestions for that...
1. Do we really need to run all the way back up? Can't we have a one-way transition at the bottom where it says "Travel back up past the corpses of those you defeated" vs. hack n slashing the entire time it took to get there? I agree with Guardian above how tedious it is to defeat all the same enemies over again for one trip, they should be dead or cowering after they saw what the players did on the way down!
2. Emergency teleports for EVERYBODY. Not just wizards. People need to be able to leave the PC if their baby's fussy, their child needs discipline, their spouse wants action, their mother wants them to clean their room, etc. By making a huge "oh I can't get out of here for 4 hours" situation, we wind up making the family conflict increase. However if like in WoW they had a little token that they could select that beamed them out of any place to a home location, then this game would be far more family friendly. And I don't see it as exploiting to portal after mining, I see the monster exploiting for respawning themselves to thwart you on the way out after you have already killed them. Most GMs in PnP allows the party to speed time up by "we all go back to town" at the end of the quest, vs making them fight every single encounter they already fought earlier that evening in reverse.
3. Instead of increasing the amount of nuggets it takes per ore, do a straight 1-for-1 nugget to ingot ratio. CRafting difficulty should be a virtue of the skill of the player and the difficulty in getting the CNR, not bottlenecking supply and lengthening time. So what if level 30+ characters can now make mithral quicker, they've already spent realtime YEARS to get to lvl 30 in order to survive the mithral run. Let the monsters dictate the difficulty, not the amount of free time drained from a human being in real life.
4. Make CNR available on the open market, simply costing ana rm and a leg vs. the mining. Sometimes you have a rich character who'se willing to buy a spare nugget of something for an outlandish price, let them. There needs to be some kind of basic market out there, else all these NPCs are just living in thatch huts bound together by mud. Charge something like 50 per ingot of copper, 100 for bronze, 200 for iron, 300 platinum, 400 silver, 500 gold, etc and for mithral something like 20,000 an ingot. It would still cost 200k to make a fullplate of mithral, PLUS labor, so people will still typically mine it themselves... unless of course they're already rich enough to own mithral, then they should be able to just buy it outright. Crafting should offer a player cheaper prices and a leg up on the competition, not negate all competition in the world. We keep complaining about too much gold in the world, then we force everybody to craft everything... that means gold doesnt vanish, it changes hands. You want it to vanish? Make more basic gear shops with outlandish prices but convenient delivery times.
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Hey all
I wanted to toss a couple more ideas out and see if they were possible for here. The two ideas kind of go together.
1. Teleportation (for all characters). I had this idea after my second all nighter going after things in The Deep. And the impending "LOOKS" i keot gettig throughout the following days by my wife.
In EQ2 everyone had the ability to use a spell called "Call to(your home city)". It was useable once evey 45 RL minutes. Would something like that be possible here? But probably on a much longer re-use timer? Or perhaps teleport locations in the world you can go to rather than spend hours and hours retracing your steps.... the in game teleporters ties directly into #2
2. Zone Lock Out timer. A zone lock out timer would be for say places in the deep or dungeons etc. What it would do is once you have been to said zone. Once you leave you cannot return for "X" amount of time. That would depend on what the zone was all about. Say anywhere from 8 hours to up to 24 hours or more if the team saw fit lockout.
Why add these ideas? I dont believe every player has 4 to 8 in a row to spend at their PC and make an attempt at getting Mithril, or Emeralds, or say some really awesome dungeon way off someplace. These ideas would allow them to get there but esentially taking the round trip time and cutting it in half. And because it is now so much shorter... adding a lock out timer would keep things in check I beleive.
I believe both of these ideas are possible with NwN. Certain classes in the game can teleport already. And we have zone lockouts that are tied to level, or if you have an item in your inventory. So I dont think it would be too tettible difficult to make a working lockout system (lol yeah I say that from the outside looking in) :)
Thanks
G-452
Both I'd consider MMO terms and functions that don't fit well at this stage of NWN Layonara. I'd move this to MMO suggestions to make sure something similar is implemented. NWN has never been the most user-friendly game especially in multiplayer modes, so I'd rather spend the manpower put behind a similar function in the MMO.
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Oh! and to avoid abuse, put a timer on the emergency teleport just like in WoW, 1 hour realtime. Even have it add the no-xp skin that you get after dying. This keeps them from crafting or hunting during that downtime, and lets them come back after solving a RL issue.
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People need to be able to leave the PC if their baby's fussy, their child needs discipline, their spouse wants action, their mother wants them to clean their room, etc.
Ah, and in Pseudonymns case, this would read "People need to be able to flee the game if their spouse is fussy, wants action or wants them to clean their room, otherwise they risk being disciplined.
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Exellent points brought up by both Ravemore and Lonnarin.
I am a fortunate player in that at times I can devote 4 to 8 hours to sitting at my PC, so I am rewarded by being able to go get mithril or emeralds or whatever.
How many else here can say that? Is that fair? IMO, it isnt.
Do players here with less time to play have just as much right as I do to try and get mithril, emeralds etc? absolutly!
Allow characters to teleport once every so many hours, days whatever the team finds as balanced.
Allow zones of high value CN, Items, etc to be on lockout timers. If needed 24 hours or longer.
The playing field has just been equaled.
G-452
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Great discussion, I like the ideas here but I also see where this could become another possible exploit.
The questions now are:
1) Is there enough time/interest left in this server to develop/implement these ideas? (The Team does so much already - Thank you!)
2) Can the community appropriately use what would be implemented without it becoming a discipline problem?
Personally, I think it would be great to be able to potentially cut the trip time down when needed. I know there are a lot of people that can't/don't go to the Deep because it takes too long, this would give the option. To address the issue of encrouching on the Mages Tomb, the general player versions could be restricted somehow....time was already mentioned (once per RL day would be appropriate I think), but maybe something like it only ports to one location (say the server entry point), then it wouldn't be as useful or as flexible as the Mage's Tomb, but it would allow a safe port when you just don't have time.
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I just mined 200 nuggets of mithril and got 25 emeralds... Now all I need to do is use my scroll and I'm safety teleporting home without any danger....don't think this would work, just too unrealistic, even for d&d
The teleportaion tome, dissalow the toming of encumbered people. So That could work in the same way. It just need to be copied over, have a timer of usage added to it, and voila! The big difference between the Branch for the druid, and the teleportation tome of the wizard, and this system, would be that The the one of the druids and wizard wouldn't be impacted by the timer set on the one that every one else would have. So they do not lose the prestige of having the branch or tome.
Both I'd consider MMO terms and functions that don't fit well at this stage of NWN Layonara. I'd move this to MMO suggestions to make sure something similar is implemented. NWN has never been the most user-friendly game especially in multiplayer modes, so I'd rather spend the manpower put behind a similar function in the MMO.
We already have half the system in place for the zone lock out timer that can be cannibalized and reversed.
The zone lock out timer as I was discussing with Gurdian could work in the same way, but in reverse of what the Fort of kings uses.
To enter the fort of kings you need a tome. If you don't have the tome you can't enter.
But now lets reverse this.
You go mine emeralds. Now lets say that we remember the rules of no more than three pass at an cnr zone (and the same with logging in and logging out when you mined, only 3 times from the rules), then you put the lock out timer outside of the safe zone where the player rests.
When the player enters the locked area, an invisible item gets added to your inventory. That item has a life expediency of let say 24 RL hours for this example. If you have the invisible Item and you try to enter the zone locker area that the item is made for, after leaving it, then the system doesn't let you enter, giving you a message stating that you have this much time to wait before you can enter again.
Once the counter reaches 0, the invisible Item gets taken away, and you can enter that area again. Being that the lock out timer "sensor" would be placed outside of the area where the player can mine and find a safe place to rest. It would allow them to go at that cnr 3 times, but then they would have to leave, and the zone locker would be effective.
Toming out of the area would do you no good, as you would already have the invisible item on you. And if someone was to set the Teleportaion tome to bring them to the cnr, I'm sure it can be edited to prevent toming in a zone locker area.
Now the only thing I think could be a problem here, is if there is 100 people with different HIGH CNR counters going off all together. Could potentially be a problem.
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I liked the talk of leaving and resuming trips from established camps. Like leaving bookmarks on the way through the longer hikes. Yes, you can change everything to be one hour, or you can split the longer ones into one-hour segments that people can do over time, or pull an all-nighter if they choose.
Some of my favorite trips have been those that broke off at an agreed campsite, did not play the next day, and all resumed from there the next night. They were less rushed, had camping hang-out times, and fewer strand massacres near the end when everyone has to get up in an hour.
The reason I have only done it a very few times is that it's hard to all get together again to pick up. No one wants to wait that long to play their characters just to continue a trip, even a good one.
I don't want everything to be just an hour in and out, and I do like the longer ones, but as an example I couldn't take everyone through the Deep on a trip because I know I couldn't get them back out without completely sacrificing the whole point of going. I know, we've tried in other places. What happens is you get people that aren't used to going on longer trips, that misjudge the time they have or, more importantly, the time others have to show them around, and go at a snail's pace because walking is good roleplay and ultimately blame people going too fast for deaths when most of the time the ones blazing through are trying to save everyone's lives because they know how long it takes... and it takes a long time.
We know this guy's kid is sick and could wake up any minute, the other's wife is due home and he was supposed to paint the living room, this chick has to be at work at 4am, this guy's wife is going to be ticked if she wakes up at 2am and finds him drinking while playing video games, and this one's dog hasn't been on a walk since noon, and more importantly you know that the one with the sick kid is the one you absolutely cannot get through the last area without.
Yes, a lot of it is based on out of character issues, but that is because it is ultimately Player Consideration. I've seen a lot of GM grumbling about the pace of trips and I really think some perspective is in order - either shorten the trips so the players behind the characters can afford to Walk Because It's Good Roleplay, or (better, to me) add more safe-stops and the ability to return to those as a party.
Personally, even though it requires scripting and tweaking and some imagination, I would rather still be able to get a group of crazy people together and try to pull a 6-8 hour all nighter... and then in more sane times, be able to pick up where we left off for a pace more suited to having a job, a spouse, kids, school, or whatever else is applicable. Maybe it's something more suited to an MMO suggestion, but I still think it could be done in NWN. Those long trips are some of my favorite in the game, and I'd hate to see them chopped to pieces for the sake of expedience. Most just don't have the time to do them all at once.
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On the subject of location binding and hearthstones, if they are used I think they should have an equal or greater level requirement as the caster teleports, and have a quest to acquire them. Going only to a single location is a possible compromise, and with a quest in mind it could be related to that location.
Of course, I don't think that something like location binding is a concept that can be casually and only partially implemented, because it affects a lot of things and brings up a lot of questions, so it would have to be carefully thought through. For example, what if you never gained the ability to bind to any location you chose (save for the caster teleports), but gained different locations through quests, be they static or GMed? Or rather than gaining the same static location as everyone else, you have a one time "set home" use that then cannot ever be changed?
There are enough pros and cons that I'm not sure if I agree with the thought, and like I said, it's not something you can really just casually agree to, but there are a lot of things that could spring from it that might not have Apocalyptic Consequences.
My only other comment regarding the thought of an item that could act as a location bind is the sudden potential to have an IC Gem of Remembrance.
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I'm not talking of location binding there Acacea. I'm talking of Preventing it to prevent abuse of using the teleportation tome to get back into a cnr zone. Also we are not talking of making long trips a 1 hour trips. But take the mithril and emerald run. If you do both in the same trip it takes up to 6 to 8 hours to do it. It's long, fun but long, and not every one can go because it's toooo long for the time they can allow to play. That's why if you give the player some tools to reduce it, more would probably enjoy those trips. Even if you put that system in place. It would still take 3 to 4 hours to get down there.
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I was not responding to your post. I was responding to the topic. Since I was typing a lot here and there over a long period of time, you had not yet actually posted when I hit reply. I'm pretty sure I also commented on possible tools, rather than arguing against them for the sake of preserving long trips.
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Yep I saw the tools :) I was just making sure that the location binding wasn't what people understood of my post.
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I know it is only a partial answer, but the Deep actually has several relatively safe locations. I counted 4 or 5 on the way from emeralds to the surface, and one even had an actual "safe rest" area.
So it's more than possible to break up trips to the Deep or other long-haul areas. The group just needs to agree and plan.
As for the rest of the topics here (and the original post), all I'll say is we're monitoring this discussion.
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I think the rest of that point was missed, which is the ability to go back to those areas next Saturday.
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I think the rest of that point was missed, which is the ability to go back to those areas next Saturday.
No, it wasn't. :)
I just didn't want to get into how utterly exploitable that sort of situation could be. ;)
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I actually like the fact that a trip to emeralds or mithril takes as long as it does because it is the main deterant to over mining. If it was possible to get those items quicker then the rarity and value of those items would fall drastically. I think most people could set the time aside to go after them if they really, really wanted to and if they had a good group to go with. It just takes planning.
If you don't want to make the trip then you will simply have to pay for those resources to those that do make the trip.
If you get into the trip and you have an emergency or a problem come up and have to log, then you can always ask for a GM port, tome out, log off in a safe area and ask for a GM port the next day or arrange for a rescue party at a certain time.
I think if you take away the length of the trip, then the spawns that guard it should be made more powerful to balance that and keep the precious rare items like they are.
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On the subject of binding and hearthing, I liked Acacea's idea of an IC Gem of Remembrance. If I'm not mistaken current lore states that on death the players soul is pulled back to the bindstone after going through its whole ordeal and the body is transported and reconnected to the soul. Well, to justify the IC recall, someone could WLDQ or something to create an object which essentially separates the soul from the body thereby calling both to be sent to one's respective bindstone. Of course it'd be up to that player how to rig said item such that the character doesn't have to meet the harbinger, soul mother, or get pulled into the thread, but it might be a nice RP justification of things.
Of course, you could always say such a device is never fool proof and have its use tied to a 1/100 (critical failure chance) of losing a SS. That would help decrease abuse, I'm sure. ;)
For the MMO this tech could be role-played as improved such that one would no longer go through that. I also think that the MMO should have it available at all levels or at least at a very low level since it will be a game that is intended to be more commercially viable/accessible.
For NWN I could see it going either way. If low-levels abused it, they really wouldn't have that serious of an impact on the world. I.E. if I'm full of oak and hearth so I can hit up the craft hall, there isn't any serious repercussion on the game's economy or any of its systems. It's just kind of like, "Really? You did that? Yeesh." It's just questionable RP-wise.
The other convenient thing about this item if it gets tied to the bindstone is this: It will only the stonebound (adventurers) will be able to use such items. It's not even necessary that an NPC invent this. One could "uncover" the item from some ruin of those who left the stones in the first place.
Just some thoughts for RP justification.
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I actually like the fact that a trip to emeralds or mithril takes as long as it does because it is the main deterant to over mining. If it was possible to get those items quicker then the rarity and value of those items would fall drastically. I think most people could set the time aside to go after them if they really, really wanted to and if they had a good group to go with. It just takes planning.
If you don't want to make the trip then you will simply have to pay for those resources to those that do make the trip.
If you get into the trip and you have an emergency or a problem come up and have to log, then you can always ask for a GM port, tome out, log off in a safe area and ask for a GM port the next day or arrange for a rescue party at a certain time.
I think if you take away the length of the trip, then the spawns that guard it should be made more powerful to balance that and keep the precious rare items like they are.
Another note to point out here is: If these items are made easier to get from any such suggestion, players should not be surprised if said items fall in price do to easier, more frequent trips becoming available. *cough* Not to bring up any previously discussed price fixing threads or anything.
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Gear lasts forever......The price of Emeralds, Mithril and honestly everything in the loot table going down is 100% un avoidable in this version of Layonara. Yes I was one of them who chimed in on the price falling too low... and I still think some were selling too low.
As it stands now there are enough players who can (in theory) make the trip daily for Mithril and Emeralds that if they choose to could flood the market, my character included.... however I have no plans of selling anything I have obtained at this time..... and when I do you can rest asured it wont be sold for "X" amount less than what the other guys sell for.
But allow me to steer this back a bit more on topic.....
The above proposed ideas could in fact slow that down. If they put a 24 hour to 36 hour (maybe longer?) lock out on the area after you left, and add a teleport home feature to all classes. Yes many more might be able to acces these areas now but EVERY one who goes will have this same lockout. So it still has a means of slowing it down.
Thank you GM and Content teams for monitoring the discussion of the two proposed ideas further.
I hope a good, ON TOPIC, disscussion continues.
G-452
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Without taking a position for or against any of the proposals and ideas stated in this thread, I think it's worthwhile to inject the following perspective into this discussion in the interest of something potentially positive for the community as a whole coming from it.
Some similar, perhaps even complementary, concepts were raised in a recent thread asking the community what they wanted from Layonara. There was a lot of feedback from that thread, some of which the GM Team has looked at very closely. As a general concept, the issues surrounding long runs and how they are somewhat exclusionary to those who are not in the "powergamer" set or who simply do not have large blocks of time to devote to long adventuring runs have been discussed by the te
I will not disclose the nature of these discussions, but I do want to bring up a very important point.
I have heard (and come up with) several reasons for and against a "teleport" available to everyone. Many of the ideas and concepts raised in this thread mirror many things that have been discussed/considered/etc.
The key issue is that the length of runs impacts one particular group of people the most: The "casual gamer"
This category of player has limited time and doesn't want to be left out, but often finds that there just isn't enough time in the schedule to enjoy the fun and rewards of adventuring within the constraints of their schedules. One-way exits and "recall" type teleports (whatever you may call them) are two ways to address this. Though of course, each needs some sort of meaningful limitation which is accommodating to the casual player without opening things up for abuse by those who would take undue advantage of a mechanical path-of-ease.
To a lesser degree, the length of runs also impacts those who usually have some available time but who may fall victim to the dreaded "RL Monster", be it kids, or a work emergency or any number of other unexpected interruptions.
So, as you all continue your considerations and debate, it would be beneficial to keep in mind this basic idea. Whatever system (or set of systems) that we might put in place really needs to be focused toward accommodating the casual player and the cases of RL emergency while discouraging the over-use, abuse and exploitation by people who have tons of time to spend and who are just looking for a quick, free ride back to civilization.
The context of this is, of course, for NWN only.
Thank you all for your comments so far and your contributions.
And as G said, let's keep this focused on-topic for everyone's benefit.
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Teleportation by all characters? Well, I know mages work their butt off to reach 14th level to obtain the Tome of Teleportation
To be more true to the current state of layo, rare is the player that works their butt off to get to level 14. More like most grind as fast as they can to get to 14th level. So the "getting" of the "reward" is already cheapened.
Sorry to be so blunt but that is more accurate.
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Most changes like these have many other effects than just those proposed, so it is natural to attempt keeping perspective in mind while also trying to contribute to the narrower focus of the thread. Increase, supply, and other previous concerns of the community, while not specifically the topic, would most certainly be taken into account by monitoring GMs so addressing them ahead of time is always a good thing. No need to be rude. ;)
(Edit - I had this on a quick reply before Dorg and jrizz posted, and forgot to press enter. Sorry!)
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Never tried it before, but unless there is some mechanical code in place, buy a housing portal, set it and abandon it at your camp in the deep... Do not see any RP reason why you cannot do that, and does not seem like it could be classified as an exploit, at least at this point in time. Would be concerned about an Army of Dark Elves using it to access locations on the other end though... LOL ;)
Personally, I think if you want to teleport, play a mage or druid.
Beside quest chest, you can't put any other placeable in an outdoor tagged area.
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Good topic G. I have to walk away from a lot of trips because I know I only have time for half the trip or so. A way to be able to do these trips and still have a "way out" would be great.
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Beside quest chest, you can't put any other placeable in an outdoor tagged area.
Thanks for clearing that up... never tried it myself.
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To make an argument for one of the ideas floating around:
How about an item that is one-time use only at high cost sold by a town vendor, like an arcanist goods salesman?
This really does balance things relatively well.
1) It acts as a money sink to help drain away the excess. (More importantly, it will do such only for the richer characters who can afford it.)
2) The cost will render it virtually unabused because it won't be worth it for lower characters to use since they won't be able to cover the cost.
3) A ludicrously high price will keep it from being used except in those situations which are emergencies.
4) A ludicrously high price will make it so that it is only used during those trips which the buyer is likely to make profit greater than or equal to its cost.
5) The money sinking from buying this item should help high level CNR retain balanced prices. (Difficulty of accessibility decreases, but overall cost of the trip increases.)
Needless to say it should be on a vendor for which donation discounts do not apply, and one that has a higher DC against the haggling skills. Though I don't know if either of these exist?
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Needless to say it should be on a vendor for which donation discounts do not apply, and one that has a higher DC against the haggling skills. Though I don't know if either of these exist?
not that I've seen.
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Making it a money sink as well could be yet another potential for taking coin out of the game. Hopefully keeping people from buying them and using them like candy... and yet.. keeping the price realistic enough for people who truly would benefit from them can still afford them.
I think some kind of timer system would still have to be tied to the use of it... so no one could in just run in ... load up.. and poof im out. Risne and repeat every single night.
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Well:
To make an argument for one of the ideas floating around:
How about an item that is one-time use only at high cost sold by a town vendor, like an arcanist goods salesman?
This really does balance things relatively well.
1) It acts as a money sink to help drain away the excess. (More importantly, it will do such only for the richer characters who can afford it.)
2) The cost will render it virtually unabused because it won't be worth it for lower characters to use since they won't be able to cover the cost.
3) A ludicrously high price will keep it from being used except in those situations which are emergencies.
4) A ludicrously high price will make it so that it is only used during those trips which the buyer is likely to make profit greater than or equal to its cost.
5) The money sinking from buying this item should help high level CNR retain balanced prices. (Difficulty of accessibility decreases, but overall cost of the trip increases.)
6. A ludicrous high price can be detrimental to casual players, because they usually have less gold than people who have ample time to play.
Just goes to show that systems are not as easily developed as it sometimes sounds ;)
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Ok well here is another angle I havnt seen taken yet...
Instead of a Coin cost for this call home feature.... how about an XP cost? Again this is more costly to the average gamer than the hard core player.
I keep comming back to a lockout timer... lol
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How about some sort of teleport spell, or better yet a mass teleport spell which would work like the tomes, a single teleport spell would take the targeted person to the anchored spot where the Mage set it and theass teleport would take the whole party ( that's on the same area) to said anchor spot as well. That way if someone needs to leave, the Mage can send them back to safety...
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Oh..and it dosent need to be a teleport spell(which is still good) but a dimension door or something....
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ill just elaborate on this a little. When people goto the deep, they have at least on mage, at relitivily high level. With either teleport, mass teleport or dimension door, they canot goto a anchor that is below ground, so the mage will have to anchor somewhere topside, that way they cant just mass teleport back into the deep for another mining trip so to speak, that way you wont even need to have a lockout timer, cause honestly..lockout timers dont really bring the feel of realnist in a world like layonara.
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A single-use item scaled price-wise to char level then?
for example:
three-ten, one thousand
ten-fifteen, five thousand
fifteen-twenty, ten thousand
etc.
also, can Layo items be made unique? Only one in inventory at a time?
I thought of a timer on the use, say once per rl week, but then that limits the use for actual emergencies.
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Again, I would remind people of my last post, and Ed's last as well.
Things that have high costs, whether gold or XP, will more negatively impact the causal player or the player who has emergent RL situations. For the player who can spend large amounts of time playing and reaping the gold and XP rewards of such, there is far less of an impact. This doesn't really help the problem at all, and in fact, makes things better for the more hard-core gamer and worse for the casual gamer and the victim of circumstance.
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around this "teleporting after mining is exploiting" thing. So If I storm a castle to kill the king and I know there are 60 employed guards within the castle, I am expected to kill 60 guards, kill the king, and then upon leaving the throne room kill those same 60 guards again who have for some reason risen from the dead without a cleric present? How about if I spent too much time using the chamberpot, am I to expect the decapitated king to stand back up, screw his head back on atop his neck-hole, and fight me again? Because with the NWN respawn timer system, that's exactly what happens. Putting a one-way transition at he end of the dungeon which takes you back out to the dungeon entrance is something that's been done sine Legend of Zelda. Link holds up the triforce segment, he cheers, the screen fades to black and he walks out the dungeon entrance. The only real reason to play through the same dungeon again is if it's somehow different on the way up. If it's the same, then killing them twice is considered camping, no?
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Just to play Devil's advocate:
A casual player that's high enough to get access to that high-level CNR and content is going to have that money. And said cost of xp/money would be covered by the cost of the trip. If someone gets one emerald we'll say that's 50k. Even if the product cost 20k, that's still 30k profit.
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For the "wrap-up" teleporter: This idea is worth considering just because DMs already do this when time is of the essence. On completion of the objective they'll say, "You defeat the X baddies, get Z item, and find your way back to Y without a problem."
On the downside this doesn't help those gamers who have emergencies before you reach the end.
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Another solution might be making the portal-at-the-end-of-dungeon cost a CNR resource for each player entering. Example; make a portal around emerald/mithril deposits that require one raw gem or 2 nuggets of mithril per player to enter. That way you make it more accessible for players with less time, while still making it worth for players to take the full trip.
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Another solution might be making the portal-at-the-end-of-dungeon cost a CNR resource for each player entering. Example; make a portal around emerald/mithril deposits that require one raw gem or 2 nuggets of mithril per player to enter. That way you make it more accessible for players with less time, while still making it worth for players to take the full trip.
I like that but the problem is that the cnr are a random number. If you have a big enough party to get there safely and you mine emeralds, you often end up with only one or two emeralds.
So although I like that idea, it could make the trip (depending of the items asked) to be of an extreme cost to the players.
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I like that but the problem is that the cnr are a random number. If you have a big enough party to get there safely and you mine emeralds, you often end up with only one or two emeralds.
So although I like that idea, it could make the trip (depending of the items asked) to be of an extreme cost to the players.
Thats what I was just thinking, though Pibe has a good idea going there (I often run out of time when adventuring in a group and have RL yelling at me while I try to get out), I couldn't help imagining scenarios like:
"Emerald digger: Woohoo, I got two emeralds, that means I got one to get outta here and one for keeps!
Rest of party: Hey what about us...?
Emerald digger: *fooshes out of the dungeon while the party gets killed*"
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Well the thing is that you could potentially mine the deposits twice, which reduces the chance of walking away with only two emeralds. Secondly the portal would be somewhere in between mithril and emeralds so it would be favourable to go for both making it even more unlikely that you can't pay for everyone.
And I really believe that the griefing rules that the server currently employs as well as the good nature of the players here would prevent the emerald foosh. Keep in mind that this suggestion is only for the nwn version.
One big disadvantage though is that the implementation heavily favours wizards since they can foosh without a price unless a system is made so that it is impossible to do so on the runs which have a portal included.
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around this "teleporting after mining is exploiting" thing. So If I storm a castle to kill the king and I know there are 60 employed guards within the castle, I am expected to kill 60 guards, kill the king, and then upon leaving the throne room kill those same 60 guards again who have for some reason risen from the dead without a cleric present? How about if I spent too much time using the chamberpot, am I to expect the decapitated king to stand back up, screw his head back on atop his neck-hole, and fight me again? Because with the NWN respawn timer system, that's exactly what happens. Putting a one-way transition at he end of the dungeon which takes you back out to the dungeon entrance is something that's been done sine Legend of Zelda. Link holds up the triforce segment, he cheers, the screen fades to black and he walks out the dungeon entrance. The only real reason to play through the same dungeon again is if it's somehow different on the way up. If it's the same, then killing them twice is considered camping, no?
I agree with your examples, but whether or not a free pass home is sensible or not depends a lot on the scale of the trip. The Deep is not a castle or a puny little dungeon. It's enormous, with large distances between transitions in some cases just like on the surface. While, in a fully realistic way, no one should expect every single group of enemies to be back on the return trip, much of the territory would be reoccupied by someone or something in the weeks or months the trip would actually take the miners. There is never a reason, in my opinion, to think you are safe in the Deep.
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You could have two different types of teleportation devices:
1) A gem of rememberence that will take you to a point of recal. Each character gets this gem as a item in their inventory upon creation. They get to use it at no cost, once per server reset. (good for casual gamers and lower characters with little funds and can be used for emergencies)
2) A tome of rememberance that you can purchase for say 10-20k at an arcanist store as mentioned below. It has one charge. Also takes you to a point of recal. Have a limit of how many you can buy maybe, and dont make them transferable.
This approach hopefully allows those with no money a way to still go out and adventure or have a means of leaving in case of emergency. The second option allows those who like to adventure, have money but not time, a means to adventure.
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Just to play Devil's advocate:
A casual player that's high enough to get access to that high-level CNR and content is going to have that money. And said cost of xp/money would be covered by the cost of the trip. If someone gets one emerald we'll say that's 50k. Even if the product cost 20k, that's still 30k profit.
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.
There are some casual players with high-level characters who have never held more than 50K at one time, and probably a non-trivial amount who have never seen more than 100K.
Casual players are on average much more "poor" (and I use the term loosely, as most PCs have more money than entire towns) than those with more time to spend, and they recoup any such costs much slower.
Trust me on this one...my 32nd level character has never had more than 40-45K in his bank account ever, and I know I'm not alone...mostly because I have access to the bank account data in the database. ;)
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I like the idea of an item everyone gets, and has one use per reset.
How about another item say everyone has that could be used for RL emergency evac... and if abused taken away? Meh... probably to much work for the team.
Ok... how about an item added to the WL items that does this Emergenvy Evac for RL reasons.... I mean if we trust the WL's to give out RP XP, and ban players, and all the other things WL's can do. Why not that?
I realise that is a limited field of players, just the WL's.... but its a start? And remember I proposed that the WL one be a RL issue evac... not a... ugh were tired and dont want to fight our way back out now.
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A somewhat side point I wanted to make. I havnt sat down and payed attention to the exact amout of XP Enzo gets from a Mithril / Emerald run. But at a guess its 100k on the way in.... 100k on the way out.
Using an item that sends me home when we are done mining... I am missing out on 100k of EXP.... or any toon can look at it as loosing half the XP they could have gained had they hacked their way back out as we do now.
I dont know that counts for anything, but it seems a sacrafice to me.
G-452
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Just as an aside, there are ways to accomplish this kind of thing on a more limited basis with DM involvement... Milty has run a number of one hour at a time expeditions, where every week the characters are placed back where they logged off the previous week, which were a lot of fun for those players who rarely have large blocks of time. Other times, I've had DM intervention to "create a portal" or use other means for hasty exits from long trips when RL reared its head - I can see that it could be exploitative if done repeatedly, but one could certainly arrange for that kind of thing beforehand.
I'm not really commenting either way on the ideas being thrown out, just saying that there are ways that the objectives can in some small part be reached without creating mechanical systems for it.
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Buying something that can teleport a PC to a location seem to be the best idea yet. The issues with it are cost and usage. I would say that the cost should be mild, 10k to 20k. Usage can be tracked just like the tomes are. Tracking really should not be that much of a burden as a good percentage of the PCs are already wizards and the overall community of active players is really not that high. Put the same usage rules/guidelines around them as tomes.
As one of the "casual" gamers. I can say that 10k to 20k is not outrageous but I would be very careful in my use of them due to cost. Having the option would be just great.
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Buying something that can teleport a PC to a location seem to be the best idea yet. The issues with it are cost and usage. I would say that the cost should be mild, 10k to 20k. Usage can be tracked just like the tomes are. Tracking really should not be that much of a burden as a good percentage of the PCs are already wizards and the overall community of active players is really not that high. Put the same usage rules/guidelines around them as tomes.
As one of the "casual" gamers. I can say that 10k to 20k is not outrageous but I would be very careful in my use of them due to cost. Having the option would be just great.
The ludicrous prices I mentioned shouldn't be over 20k in my opinion. Just goes to show what "mild" is for some is other people's "ludicrous". :D
I, personally, would rarely (if ever) use an item that cost that much.
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Maybe the "tome" could be something all players get at start up; it has 10 charges; can only be used once per server reset; after the 10th charge it crumbles to dust and you have to buy a new one at the merchant for $20k; it would portal you to a void and you could not play that character for 3 RL hours.
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Using an item that sends me home when we are done mining... I am missing out on 100k of EXP.... or any toon can look at it as loosing half the XP they could have gained had they hacked their way back out as we do now.
I dont know that counts for anything, but it seems a sacrafice to me.
And making up for that "loss" of XP by avoiding how many chances to lose a soul strand? Trading a chance at extra XP for a guarantee of no strand loss seems like a serious boon rather than a sacrifice.
Even for the most casual player, soul strands are more precious than XP. I hate to admit it, but I'd probably jump on that gravy train nine time out of ten. I can get XP anywhere, but soul strands are limited. And honestly, after you hit level 20, 100k XP is like one quest session. That's not really a lot.
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I dont know the exact numbers, but clearly everyone will sacrafice half of what they could get by choosing to teleport.. And unless you do something stupid ( or have some estra spice added) you have no more chance of death than you did on the way down.
Also the same people who might benefit most from the teleport probably cant devote blocks of time to quests either. *shrug*
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To piggy back on Gulnyr's argument, though. You're also sacrificing XP to gain Real Life time. The equation between time spent in-game (potentially gaining xp) vs. RL time will always balance out at 0 in my eyes.
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Well the thing is that you could potentially mine the deposits twice, which reduces the chance of walking away with only two emeralds.
To give you an example. On one on the trips where Ty had a good run at mining ( she has very good gem mining hands) We went for three runs at the emerald deposit and come out with 26 emeralds. Being we were 12.. well that left 2 each, and one for roll that she won.
Most of the time that i have been there, you barely get 1 even in a decent party size like 8 or 9 members. If you're lucky maybe 2 a run, for each members of the party.
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Just as an aside, there are ways to accomplish this kind of thing on a more limited basis with DM involvement... Milty has run a number of one hour at a time expeditions, where every week the characters are placed back where they logged off the previous week, which were a lot of fun for those players who rarely have large blocks of time. Other times, I've had DM intervention to "create a portal" or use other means for hasty exits from long trips when RL reared its head - I can see that it could be exploitative if done repeatedly, but one could certainly arrange for that kind of thing beforehand.
I'm not really commenting either way on the ideas being thrown out, just saying that there are ways that the objectives can in some small part be reached without creating mechanical systems for it.
That involves a GM, which isn't bad, but we are talking of the times where gms are not available or present.
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Just a comment on the length of time it takes to get down in The Deep.
A trip for mithril or emeralds doesn't need to take 5-6 hours. A trip for mithril and emeralds that involves encircling the areas so as to reap the rewards of both of the emerald and mithril spawns three times and maybe some titanium on the way there and back takes 5 to 6 hours. Server logs show each cycle to go back to the deposit locations takes 40 minutes.
If you want to be more conscientious of your other party members schedules then don't plan such massive hauls? Plan trips for just one or the other and one mining run. This can be accomplished in less than 3 hours.
The trips there or back also do not need to take as much time if the parties are more properly prepared to provide the essential defences for longer periods of time instead of resting every twenty minutes when their mega spells are spent. Have the clerics memorize more foes, the mages/clerics memorize more true sights, don't blow all your spells when you don't necessarily need to etc.
If you want to shave off the one hour that it takes for returning to the surface with a teleport system there's an easier way; don't loop the deposits three times and don't venture for both goods at a time.
If I can have a "Get off my lawn!" moment, there was a time when 8 people would delve for 4 hours and get maybe just 3 emeralds, not 20+ emeralds and 80+ nuggets of mithril.
Lastly if you have to bail for any sorts of emergencies, do so, then when you return post on the forums or inquire on IRC for a GM to give you a friendly teleport based upon the circumstances. A simple "Hi I had to go take care of my boy and needed to bail on my party unexpectedly in the middle of The Deep, can someone help me rejoin them/return me to the surface"
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I have the perfect solution. Give every player an item that when used will kill them. The death will be like when a DM kills you, no exp lose or soul mother role. That way they can port to their bind stone and have to recover before they can play again. It has no cost and the recover penalty is already built in based on your character level.
The only problem is how to RP the whole thing. I was thinking that the RP reason would be, "You focus on the item and return to your bind stone. The return trip is so exhausting that you need a break before you can continue."
To add to the RP experience why not have a built in quest where the item is one of the rewards. Maybe a second quest offered by Mordaken outside Hlint.
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I have the perfect solution. Give every player an item that when used will kill them. The death will be like when a DM kills you, no exp lose or soul mother role. That way they can port to their bind stone and have to recover before they can play again. It has no cost and the recover penalty is already built in based on your character level.
The only problem is how to RP the whole thing. I was thinking that the RP reason would be, "You focus on the item and return to your bind stone. The return trip is so exhausting that you need a break before you can continue."
To add to the RP experience why not have a built in quest where the item is one of the rewards. Maybe a second quest offered by Mordaken outside Hlint.
Oh and the item can only be used with no monsters around.
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Just a comment on the length of time it takes to get down in The Deep.
A trip for mithril or emeralds doesn't need to take 5-6 hours. A trip for mithril and emeralds that involves encircling the areas so as to reap the rewards of both of the emerald and mithril spawns three times and maybe some titanium on the way there and back takes 5 to 6 hours. Server logs show each cycle to go back to the deposit locations takes 40 minutes.
If you add the titanium that's really more 6 to 8 hours.
If you want to be more conscientious of your other party members schedules then don't plan such massive hauls? Plan trips for just one or the other and one mining run. This can be accomplished in less than 3 hours.
I agree 100% with this. Unfortunately even when you try your best to give the info on how long it can take, some people still choose to come and get stuck. Or people thought they had that time to give, but got caught short or with an unforeseen event.
The trips there or back also do not need to take as much time if the parties are more properly prepared to provide the essential defences for longer periods of time instead of resting every twenty minutes when their mega spells are spent. Have the clerics memorize more foes, the mages/clerics memorize more true sights, don't blow all your spells when you don't necessarily need to etc.
The problem there are more in term of level and duration of spells. Some of the members of a group may not always be the same level as the highest char is. In the case of the trip you came with us. There were some level 16 -17 -18 in that group. Their spells (Talia included, and mine) would never have lasted long enough to match those of the other party members, and at those levels, they also have a limited amount of spell casting they can do. That's why there is more rest, so that some are not left out of the protection.
If you want to shave off the one hour that it takes for returning to the surface with a teleport system there's an easier way; don't loop the deposits three times and don't venture for both goods at a time.
Again that comes with the territory of having a good group of people to share the goods with.
If I can have a "Get off my lawn!" moment, there was a time when 8 people would delve for 4 hours and get maybe just 3 emeralds, not 20+ emeralds and 80+ nuggets of mithril.
I agree, but at that time, there was probably a lot less people who needed those things. Look at the levels. half of the toons nowadays are in the level 18 and over range. They are at the stage where they need the emeralds gears, and need the mithril armors, weapons, shields, just to be able to survive in the higher challenge areas. Areas that were not there back in the days, or a lot less challenging.
And then there is the matter of scheduling. It's easier to get the required number of people for a safe trip once for a long haul. It's much harder to plan ahead several little trips and hope that the people needed will be able to be free at that time.
Lastly if you have to bail for any sorts of emergencies, do so, then when you return post on the forums or inquire on IRC for a GM to give you a friendly teleport based upon the circumstances. A simple "Hi I had to go take care of my boy and needed to bail on my party unexpectedly in the middle of The Deep, can someone help me rejoin them/return me to the surface"
That's an other possibility that is always given, but sometime that is not possible. And this system could give some more free time for the Gm's to prepare more quests series and fun stuff for the toons to do. :p
I have the perfect solution. Give every player an item that when used will kill them. The death will be like when a DM kills you, no exp lose or soul mother role. That way they can port to their bind stone and have to recover before they can play again. It has no cost and the recover penalty is already built in based on your character level.
The only problem is how to RP the whole thing. I was thinking that the RP reason would be, "You focus on the item and return to your bind stone. The return trip is so exhausting that you need a break before you can continue."
To add to the RP experience why not have a built in quest where the item is one of the rewards. Maybe a second quest offered by Mordaken outside Hlint.
Oh and the item can only be used with no monsters around.
I like it but I see two things.
One is that it needs a number of time it can be used in an alloted time frame, due to the recovery time being capped at 1 hour.
Second is of RP. If you kill the character (decide to kill himself?) that wouldn't fit with a lot of the alignment there I think. I don't foresee a Paladin of Toran committing this to get out of a cave.
I do love the idea of an item being a secondary quest reward, from a NPC.
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I like it but I see two things.
One is that it needs a number of time it can be used in an alloted time frame, due to the recovery time being capped at 1 hour.
Second is of RP. If you kill the character (decide to kill himself?) that wouldn't fit with a lot of the alignment there I think. I don't foresee a Paladin of Toran commuting this to get out of a cave.
I do love the idea of an item being a secondary quest reward, from a NPC.
1. In my mind an hour penalty is plenty. If the powers that be decide for a longer one I would not be against it. We could even have the item have a single charge and you need to bring it back to get it recharged. That way they need to do a long trip back before they do it all over again. The trip I have in mind would be like heading to Lyn on Mistone. Out of the way and off the beaten path. We could even make it that you can only get a recharge once per server reset.
2. The killing would be mechanical and not RP. RP wise all they would be doing is concentrating on an item. I'm just trying to make it easier for the team to implement and still have the desired effect.
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I was going to rebut each of your points but honestly I don't have the energy.
My main points:
1. The extra hour it takes to return can be compensated by not making the mining as long.
2. If you have to bail ask a GM to later return you. It's always possible (I'm not sure where you'd get that it's not always possible) and honestly 5 minutes of their time is not going to cause critical issues with dreaming up quest ideas or taking care of other things. In fact most of the time it's welcomed as a task for someone to take care of to break the monotony of things they were otherwise doing. Sure, sometimes you won't get immediate help but it's never an incredibly lengthy time.
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I want to clarify also that I'm not entirely against these ideas. Chongo and I talked extensively about such a system. I'm just offering means to work around them at least at the present.
It's just very very very very very very very very (did I stress that enough hehe) to cater a system to help the casual player and not have it be horribly taken advantage of by the guy who has 8+ hours a day to play.
And every time you throw in complexities to get around these potential disparities you're adding time for coding. Time that's very limited at the present :(
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Just a comment on the length of time it takes to get down in The Deep.
A trip for mithril or emeralds doesn't need to take 5-6 hours. A trip for mithril and emeralds that involves encircling the areas so as to reap the rewards of both of the emerald and mithril spawns three times and maybe some titanium on the way there and back takes 5 to 6 hours. Server logs show each cycle to go back to the deposit locations takes 40 minutes.
If you want to be more conscientious of your other party members schedules then don't plan such massive hauls? Plan trips for just one or the other and one mining run. This can be accomplished in less than 3 hours...
@Orth, This is a really great suggestion. I would go on more trips if I knew it was going to be a one goal one pass trip. But now days it is the standard is to do three passes on every trip and for the Deep to double up mithril and emeralds.
As a side note: The more we have these discussions about trips and CNR and the cost of goods the more I see the wisdom in the old camping rules.
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As a side note: The more we have these discussions about trips and CNR and the cost of goods the more I see the wisdom in the old camping rules.
As far as I know, and from the start I was here, that rule never changed. Correct me if I'm wrong please. But it always was 3 tries / 30 minutes.
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I think he's saying that the rule which has been unchanged for as long as most can remember was wisely constructed and has withstood the test of time, even if people question it from time to time.
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I want to clarify also that I'm not entirely against these ideas. Chongo and I talked extensively about such a system. I'm just offering means to work around them at least at the present.
I still dream of the camp system. :rolleyes:
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I felt like giving this old discussion a nudge...
Is this still being considered/discussed by the staff in any way shape or form?
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Yes, but it hasn't been a priority.
My leaning is toward a travel system located in specific locations that provide a way out of the Deep (or wherever) to a selection of surface locations but which take the character out of play for some number of RL hours.
The thinking here is that it won't matter much for the player with less time who doesn't want to miss out on a trip but can't devote the hours needed for three loops and a return, and it would not unfairly penalize such players by requiring more of what they have less of already (large per-use fee, raw materials, whatever) while discouraging use of the system by those with time to spare who just want a quick way back with their hauls. It's relatively simple and would require little to no sacrifice from the casual player.
While true it would not cover emergency player departures, that facet is covered pretty well by GMs already.
So for example, someone could go to this "ship captain" (for lack of a better word this morning) and book passage to Port Hempstead, for example. The character would then be booted and not permitted to log in again for 6 or 8 RL hours.
That's my current thinking anyway, but as I said, it has not been a priority.
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Thanks for the update!
That sounds pretty good. As you admit not the perfect system for emergency departures but also a system that will hinder using it as an "easy button".
So say where The Deep is concerned. A few places that send you to the surface is a safe locale. You are booted and wont be able to log in for "X" hours.
My only request with that would be... that it clearly tells you that you when you click on it or mouse over it will be booted. So the players dont use it and say... no fair... I didnt know it was going to boot me for "x" hours!
How about a twist on that idea. You have the option to purchase an item from some merchant. Your down in the deep and you want to quit for whatever reason. You use this "call home item" (or call to whatever locale easiest would be your bindstone) and it sends you there when you use it. It destroys itself (single use) and you are again booted for "X" hours to prevent exploiting this system.
I had a good example of when I would use this item just the other night. Enzo was down in the deep with Zig, Griff, and Gunder. we got some Titanium and Rubies. After getting both things I was dead tired.. it was like 3 am already. I could tell my RP was suffering, and I feared getting myself or someone else killed cause I was catching myself nodding off. This would have been the perfect time to use the above item. It sends me to my bindstone and boots me for "x" hours. Which I would have been totally fine with cause I was going to bed! lol
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2 Questions
1. How long is a "number of hours" for the character to be out of play? IMO 4 to 6 hour range would work. Leaning towards 4. I cant see much longer than 6. That would be a pretty harsh penalty for using this system IMO.
2. You are talking about just the 1 character being "out of play" not the players whole account? This would be unacceptable and only reward those who have multiple NWN accounts. The way I read you D you meant just that specific character... in my case say its Enzo who used this system. He would be "out of play" for "X" hours. I could if I chose to still play another of my characters, right?
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2 Questions
1. How long is a "number of hours" for the character to be out of play? IMO 4 to 6 hour range would work. Leaning towards 4. I cant see much longer than 6. That would be a pretty harsh penalty for using this system IMO.
I was thinking 6. In the instance you described in your previous post, for most people, six hours off to sleep or go to work or whatever is plenty reasonable. Again, it doesn't cover emergency cases, but it's not meant to either. I'm not married to this number, but for 95% or more of the cases, I think it will be meaningless for the casual player and sufficient of a deterrent for someone who just wants to get back quickly.
2. You are talking about just the 1 character being "out of play" not the players whole account? This would be unacceptable and only reward those who have multiple NWN accounts. The way I read you D you meant just that specific character... in my case say its Enzo who used this system. He would be "out of play" for "X" hours. I could if I chose to still play another of my characters, right?
Correct. It would only apply to the single character who used the system. Any other characters that the player possesses would be free to play, assuming they too were not locked up by using the system.
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Seems we are on the same page with the time issue. I agree completely (don't fall out of your chair LOL) It has to be long enough to be felt and to help stop it from being used as an exploit (the hard core player). Yet not long enough to further discourage someone (the casual player).
Why wouldn't it cover an emergency though? If they use the item to port out because of an emergency they will have 6 hours before that character can play. If were truly an emergency 6 hours is nothing to worry about.
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Why wouldn't it cover an emergency though? If they use the item to port out because of an emergency they will have 6 hours before that character can play. If were truly an emergency 6 hours is nothing to worry about.
I wasn't responding to the item idea. Sorry if that was confusing.
Since you're asking though, I'm not a big fan of an item-based solution in this case, even with a time penalty...at least that's my present opinion.
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While true it would not cover emergency player departures, that facet is covered pretty well by GMs already.
I didn't answer orth on this one in the past that it's always possible to get a gm bailout. I just want to add that if this is true, it should be passed through the gem team.
Let me explain.
A while back (before this conversation had even started) I was traveling with a group in the brech mountain, not hard to do to my character at the time, but I was out of time (already late by 30 minutes) and asked a gm if I could be bailed out. I was then told, "sorry I can't do that because we can't teleport someone out of a danger zone". Which pardon me for saying so, applies for 99% of the deep :p. Now on the other hand I've seen gm that were in the group (down in the deep) log out and bail people out, but what I'm talking here is consistency.
So I think if it's Always possible as stated, it should be made clear to the entire team and that certain situation (like having to log in an urgency) be permitted no matter where you are. Of course that pauses a possible exploit to happen, but I'm sure you guys can track that well enough.
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Just as the usage of a teleport item can be tracked. ;)
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Seems we are on the same page with the time issue. I agree completely (don't fall out of your chair LOL) It has to be long enough to be felt and to help stop it from being used as an exploit (the hard core player). Yet not long enough to further discourage someone (the casual player).
Why wouldn't it cover an emergency though? If they use the item to port out because of an emergency they will have 6 hours before that character can play. If were truly an emergency 6 hours is nothing to worry about.
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I think you meant player, not character. It's the player that has the emergency.
I like the idea, though I would probably abuse it. There are times when a group heads off and I know I'm not going to be able to do the entire trip uninterrupted. I'd jump into the fray and play as long as I could, then bail out. This would increase the chances of playing with groups but may not be what the team wants to see in the world.
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A while back (before this conversation had even started) I was traveling with a group in the brech mountain, not hard to do to my character at the time, but I was out of time (already late by 30 minutes) and asked a gm if I could be bailed out. I was then told, "sorry I can't do that because we can't teleport someone out of a danger zone". Which pardon me for saying so, applies for 99% of the deep :p. Now on the other hand I've seen gm that were in the group (down in the deep) log out and bail people out, but what I'm talking here is consistency.
So I think if it's Always possible as stated, it should be made clear to the entire team and that certain situation (like having to log in an urgency) be permitted no matter where you are. Of course that pauses a possible exploit to happen, but I'm sure you guys can track that well enough.
I won't even bother trying to respond to your particular situation, because the context is gone, and as such I clearly don't know what exactly was going on....and it doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion.
In general, however, GMs make calls based on judgment all the time. Sometimes the results may differ. There is no checklist as to when it is and isn't OK to give someone a port. Like I said, it's usually a judgment call. There is no One Absolute Rule.
It is true that we generally will not take someone out of an active combat situation just because they ask. I know I wouldn't. It really goes against the spirit of things, and we would never know if there is truly an "emergency" or if a character is just in over his/her head.
Now, having said that, if there is something urgent, take yourself out of combat and log out. Don't wait around for a GM. Worry about that when it's time to log in again. Post for GM assistance or get onto IRC and ask there. If someone's available, they'll help you out of wherever you are. We do this all the time. We try not to ever penalize players or characters due to the urgencies and interruptions of real life. Many of us have families, jobs, pets possessed by Evil, children and/or any other number of potential interruptions that can happen at a moment's notice. It happens. We get that. Don't worry about it.
So in an emergency, log out. Try not to do this in active combat. There's a number of reasons for this. Get yourself to the side or somewhere known to be safe and log out. This is ultimately no different from the case where someone crashes or has a network failure or whatever. Do not, however, log out to avoid the current, active combat. This is an abuse, and it's mentioned in our rules.
When you're ready to log in again, ask for a GM. We'll help you out if we can.
I think you meant player, not character. It's the player that has the emergency.
I like the idea, though I would probably abuse it. There are times when a group heads off and I know I'm not going to be able to do the entire trip uninterrupted. I'd jump into the fray and play as long as I could, then bail out. This would increase the chances of playing with groups but may not be what the team wants to see in the world.
No, we mean character, because we want to prevent characters from using something like this to make an easy escape from...the Deep, for example...laden with gems and ores, then skip happily along to craft up one's take. That would be an abuse. We understand it's the player with the emergency, but it's the character that stands to benefit most from someone who would use this system for no other purpose but to get back quickly and keep playing.
The whole point of this would be to address the complaint that people have about wanting to join excursions like this and not being able to due to the time some groups may take in doing so (i.e. the aforementioned extra loops for a full take of ore and gems). So no, you are incorrect in your analysis of why we would do this (if we do this) and what it is we want to see.
Chances are, for people like you and others who would want something like this, it wouldn't matter if we limited the character or player from logging in again, because they wouldn't be able to play anyway. But say for example, one person in the group had time to get back but no one else did. That person could still use the system, jump into a new character and keep playing in some way or the other.
The whole point for the delay is to deter the hardcore player from abusing the system by requiring them to give up something they don't want to give up: time. On the flip side, the time matters little to someone who has no more time to spend at the moment, so it works out well overall and prevents the real abuse.
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That last paragraph sums up exactly what I had a vision of.
Emergency exits are separate. They can and are already taken care of by GMs. This system is about those who dont have the time for an entire trip. And we are all in agreement here (i hope) that if you made it to wherever it is. Making it back isnt a challenge.... its just more time.
Also remember the EXP given up if one chooses to call out vs. fight out. If we got a call home system. Me personally... I'd would have to weight using the call home vs. all the EXP I am giving up on the return trip. And time will be the deciding factor every time. ;)
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The whole point for the delay is to deter the hardcore player from abusing the system by requiring them to give up something they don't want to give up: time. On the flip side, the time matters little to someone who has no more time to spend at the moment, so it works out well overall and prevents the real abuse.
Is there any official word or update on this proposal?
Thanks !
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Such a system could defeat the point of gathering a balanced party for a difficult mission, by making it less likely that the remaining members of the party could succeed in getting out safely. I think wise players would be a lot less likely to travel with someone who would bug out on them for convenience.
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I would agree 100% if someone simply "bugged out" due to they got what they wanted and said see ya.... others would become leery of grouping with them in the future. But they are going be giving up playtime (lockout timer) and XP from the return trip (which in some cases is huge)... not to mention most parties "loot split" after the trip is over. So IMO that is a lot someone is giving up!!!
Player "X" has 2 or 3 strait hours to play maximum. That means player "X" will simply NEVER see certain areas of the game. If he had a call home device that would allow him to see areas he normally wouldnt because of the total time to get in and out. Sure that character of his will then be "locked out" for 6 hours... but that wont be a big deal for player "X" because he cant play again for 10 to 20 hours anyway. Remember that player "X" is now also going to give up half the XP of the round trip... which in some cases could be upwards of 100,000 Experience for round trips into the deep for example. And as I said before most groups "loot split" afterwards. So their is somethings they are sacrificing above and beyond the 6 hour lock out.
Also I dont think they are cheating death by "calling home" if they could handle whatever it was once on the way in... they should be able to handle it again on the way out.
I realize right now anyone can simply log out anywhere and later on ask for GM assistance to be removed from where they were. But honestly a call home with a lockout timer on it. Basically runs itself, and polices itself by locking them out for 6 hours. No GM assistance needed.
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For the players that have restricted time to play, which I now fall under due to my business and home renovation, this would enable us to play without having to fear of the "what time is it, and how long do I have left?" syndrome.
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I wanted to add to what I said above...
Player "X" wont be hurt by the 6 hour lockout after he calls home... BUT!! Mr XP grinder, and Mr. I want the CNR and get out... will both feel it now. Since they will be locked out for 6 hours (the character that called home will be locked out not their alts).
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But the rest of your party will have to get out without you. Unless you were unnecessary in the first place, they'll be in trouble.
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Your example is correct. Now if for further example I was the one who couldnt go the whole round trip. I would have the courtesy to tell the rest of the group of my intentions at the start. Leaving the group to then decide if I would be invited or not. If I went along... then left early. The others as you said would have to fight their way out... or... also "call home". I am not pitching the call home as an emergency RL bail out of the game... we already have that. Just log out where you are and ask for a GM to snag you at their convenience. However... it would in fact work as RL bail out too. (if you could accept the lockout)
What about other examples? I am going to guess we have more that a couple Layo players who have never seen areas of the game because of the time it takes round trip. A call home would enable them to make a group and they could all call home, when they decided to end the adventure.
Quite frankly its a shame that we have areas that only a select few can go to because they can devote hours and hours at their PC. Id almost go as far to say its quite unfair. Aside from that pulling an all nighter seem to somehow upset my wife... go figure! LOL ;)
Maybe its just me but my excitement kind of fizzles after 3 hours down into the deep and knowing we have 3 hours of killing again before we can get out. Id gladly sacrifice the XP, coin, loot, and time locked out to have a choice to call home.
Anyone else?