The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: cbnicholson on April 22, 2010, 10:39:32 AM
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I have a question regarding Dark Elves and Divine Law. Last night a pc dark elf openly acknowledged his race and even agreed to travel with another party member to Vehl to be registered as a dark elf at the Temple. It was presented to me that by because of the history of dark elves, the simple open presence of one on Mistone is a violation of the law. I'm aware that some cities like Hempstead ban Dark Elves openly, but what of the surrounding countryside? Is it legal to arrest and incarcerate a dark elf that is following the law simply because he or she is a dark elf? I spent some time in Lore and haven't found a single thing to back this statement up. Quite the contrary in fact. As stated in the Law of Layonara -
Principles of the Divine Court
- Justice will be done in line with the dogma of Rofirein
- Each individual has a right to a fair trial
- Each individual is innocent until proven guilty
- Each individual has the right to appoint a representative to speak for him on his behalf
For my primary character, Daniel, only actions and clear plausible statements of ill intent can be judged. To him, if another character regardless of race is being truthful and following the law to the best of their ability, there is no just cause for an arrest. Links and thoughts that would give this matter some clarity?
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Two things, actually maybe three. But the first two are more important.
This is a much less advanced society (or societies) then what we experience today. So remember that 'individual' is a relative term. Some races in some places are not 'people' per se but just evil, or cattle or a good many other things.
Secondly, Rofirein's Divine Court bows to the law of the land it resides in. So in each place, the law and how it is practiced depends on where His people are practicing it. I doubt every follower is expected to know every law in every land they might travel in but it's probably something that is investigated as a matter of course when a Rofireinite enters a new area. (Sort of like a Marshal checking in with the local Sheriff I suppose!)
Lastly, laws for some realms are likely in a state of development so this answer may be hard to specifically give. I won't speak to that and let Ed cover the lore related details, obviously. It is however very important to remember that 'individual' doesn't necessarily mean 'anyone who is sentient' no matter how pure and divine the court may be.
~row
**edit** and to be clear my above statements do not apply as any kind of suggested corruption within any church or wing of it. This is simply the state of things; not only how it is but also how it is widely accepted and expected to be.
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The incident I am referring to took place in a wild setting but well within the bounds of the Brelin Kingdom.
So remember that 'individual' is a relative term. Some races in some places are not 'people' per se but just evil, or cattle or a good many other things.
So its quite possible that Dark Elves are not accorded the same rights as other sentient races in that Kingdom. Fine, but..
Secondly, Rofirein's Divine Court bows to the law of the land it resides in. So in each place, the law and how it is practiced depends on where His people are practicing it.
[lore]while the more civilized kingdoms like Brelin (http://lore.layonara.com/Brelin), Trelania (http://lore.layonara.com/Trelania), and the realms (http://lore.layonara.com/realms) on Corsain (http://lore.layonara.com/Corsain) follow the law books of the Divine Court nearly to the letter.[/lore]
I keep running into stubs when I search Brelin Kingdom. :( So obviously more work needs to be done in this area. :p My point in bringing this up is that what I think it really comes down to is does Divine Law recognize Dark Elves as sentient race with rights under the law?
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As a player of a dark elf, it would be helpful to know which towns, cities, etc will arrest a dark elf simply for being a dark elf.
When in "civilization" my dark elf is always completely cloaked and hooded so no skin is showing, even in Fort Vehl which is supposed to be more tolerant. In Hlint - always cloaked etc, and has in fact been hunted from outside there when another character saw a group of dark elves and reported them to the Hlint Militia (great inpromptu from the gm at that time).
That said, when in the open solo or in a party, she (largely) flaunts her race and will show her skin, as much as a challenge as anything. A few characters have challenged her and it has added some excellent RP opportunities that would not have otherwise occurred. But by and large, most characters are more enlightened than societies and tend to take an individual on trust until such time as that trust is broken.
Good points though from cbnicholson.
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Wouldn't that classify under playing a "monstrous race"? If a dark elf was considered a person with rights on the surface, and not an evil monster with a heart as black as coal, then they wouldn't have to declare in their submission to play according to the guidelines of playing a monstrous race, nor would they have to hide their appearance to try to cover that they are dark elves. If they were considered an individual with rights, they wouldn't have to hide. Just because the PC population of dark elves isn't routinely sacking cities, raiding villages, and murdering people (openly) doesn't mean that other raiding parties from the deep aren't still plaguing the surface. It's been noted that Hlint is openly against dark elves, and simply because Leringard houses several, doesn't mean the city itself actually says "yes, we welcome dark elves!" Being a dark elf isn't like being a surface elf with black skin. Racism isn't the same as it is in current society, it's not a world where everyone is considered equal. If you ask a dark elf true to their society, they'll tell you that they ARE the individuals, and everyone else is cattle or prey. Mothers and Fathers tell their children that if they're not good then the dark elves might come and hurt their families and then how would they feel if the last thing they did was fight with their parents over eating their vegetables or doing chores? They are the boogey men, the monsters under the bed and in the closet. They are the reason people are afraid of the dark.
So if you have someone that is standing in front of you that represents evil incarnate, and they are alone, and they say "Don't shun me, yes, I'm a dark elf, but I'm not evil." Are you going to seriously believe them? Or would you perhaps think that maybe something so evil and horrible a monster could even attempt to tell a truthful statement?
We all know that we are players playing a character, and we all live in a modern society where we try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but perhaps think about how you would feel if monsters started attacking from under your very feet, killing people in cold blood, with no mercy and taking what they want, enslaving some, killing any others. These people have no faces, only shared characteristics. Would you really be able to believe that this monster before you wasn't one of those that last raided towns and killed children?
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Obviously this is an Ed question, but I have a hard time believing that most places would accept divine law if it meant that monsters were given rights. In most places, it would be like giving a rabid dog a chance to defend itself against charges of biting someone.
I just want to address this briefly, as I found it an odd sentiment: more enlightened than societies and tend to take an individual on trust
It has nothing to do with enlightenment, or lack thereof - adventurers are simply better able to deal with the consequences of broken trust than other individuals or society. Its prudent not to trust someone when there is a 99.999999% will stab you in the back. Trusting a dark elf means accepting the responsibility when an army attacks and knows the city layout ahead of time - most enlightened people will not accept that kind of risk. Dark elves as a group have proved time and time again that they are not trustworthy - adventurers may be able to accept the risk, but to society at large, its simple folly.
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The incident I am referring to took place in a wild setting but well within the bounds of the Brelin Kingdom.
Not knowing the specifics of the situation or whether or not it was PC-driven or GM-driven, it's impossible to comment fully. My understanding is that Brelin doesn't have anything like a standing army or police force. It does have the Silverguard, but those are largely concentrated in cities and such. While it is unlikely that the Silverguard would go out patrolling for monster races to arrest as a matter of policy, it's possible that such a thing might happen through the motivations of individuals.
So its quite possible that Dark Elves are not accorded the same rights as other sentient races in that Kingdom. Fine, but..
[INDENT]while the more civilized kingdoms like Brelin (http://lore.layonara.com/Brelin), Trelania (http://lore.layonara.com/Trelania), and the realms (http://lore.layonara.com/realms) on Corsain (http://lore.layonara.com/Corsain) follow the law books of the Divine Court nearly to the letter.
[/INDENT]
That would be in the way the law is carried out, how courts are run, etc. Rofirein's Divine Law does not exclude realms, cities and towns for passing their own laws that fit the situations of each. As long as the laws were duly created by a recognized, legal process, Rofirein and his Church would accept them as The Law and use Divine Law when enforcing and adjudicating legal matters.
Remember also that Prantz is under Sulterian law, and the Church of Rofirein has been allowed a presence to add legitimacy to that law, and they help to enforce Sulterian law according to the guidelines set by Rofirein.
So again, what Rowana said about the "law of the land" still applies and is consistent.
My point in bringing this up is that what I think it really comes down to is does Divine Law recognize Dark Elves as sentient race with rights under the law?
An excellent question, and it would be my opinion that Divine Law takes no sides on this. Again, the Church of Rofirein would defer the specific realm or city where a crime may have been committed and refer to those laws to determine whether or not a dark elf (or any other monstrous race) has the same rights as everyone else.
Ed can disagree with me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is going to be any One Answer under Divine Law for this question.
As a player of a dark elf, it would be helpful to know which towns, cities, etc will arrest a dark elf simply for being a dark elf.
Most on Mistone for sure, with certain individuals being the exceptions, of course.
Fort Vehl is more tolerant toward monstrous races, but that doesn't mean someone won't give them a hard time...even guards and town officials.
In the Sun Kingdom (on Alindor), dark elves would likely be shot, dissected and deep fried on sight before being fed to the wild dogs. Actually, that's not true. Sun residents have a higher regard for dogs than that. ;)
So it definitely varies, and it's probably shorter and easier for the list to be where monster races are tolerated and/or permitted.
But by and large, most characters are more enlightened than societies and tend to take an individual on trust until such time as that trust is broken.
Most characters are more forgiving and "enlightened" than they should be given the times, situations and the like. Much of our RP is deeply rooted in 21st century morality and social norms. We, as players, get it into our heads that just because that particular dark elf (or whatever) is played by another player, and as such our characters should treat the other character with the same sort of respect and deference that we might give to the other player(s). However, in the time and setting in which we play, concepts such as gender and racial equality are not universal and in fact are exceptions rather than rules. What constitutes a "fair trial", even by Rofireinite standards, may not be up to the standards we have today. Racial prejudice is not only widespread but pretty much an accepted way of life.
The slice of the population that are PCs is certainly small enough to fit within the "exceptions" category, but even among that small slice of the population, that one might be accepting of a dark elf, for example, should not be assumed and probably should not be quite so automatic. I always smile a lot when I witness a character representing a more typical, period-specific attitude toward any of the issues.
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This is a much less advanced society (or societies) then what we experience today. So remember that 'individual' is a relative term. Some races in some places are not 'people' per se but just evil, or cattle or a good many other things.
From [post=748392]here[/post] (apologies to those who can't go right to it):
In a realm or kingdom, any sentient creature in that realm or kingdom is subject to the law.
Whether those sentient creatures agree is another matter (I.e. even though a dragon may have its lair in some kingdom, I highly doubt it'd feel itself bound by its laws, same applies to some goblin tribe probably).
This says "in any realm or kingdom," but I read that as "in any realm or kingdom that cares about the Divine Law." And, of course, Rofireinites would hold that position. And that position is that each sentient individual is an individual and subject to the law, regardless of race or type. Even dragons and vampires and giants count.
If a kingdom tacks on extra laws, that could make a difference. They certainly hate dark elves in Port Hempstead, but is there a law against their presence across Brelin? That would make a difference. Whether or not such laws are really just and should be enforced is an exercise for another thread (and better IC, too). I don't think we'll be getting the specific laws of every kingdom, heh, though specific laws that make a difference to certain groups (like the Sun Kingdom and elves, or anything special about dark elves) would be good to know.
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Reminds me of a favorite quote in game
"Me loves Prantz. They no care you pinkie or dark or greenskin... we'se ALL scum heres! Cept the pinkdwarfs, they like extra scum with poopy on top" -Grovel to Nonac
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The whole point of that rage-inducing sign outside Hempstead is NOT that they are "especially banned" in Port Hempstead, but to underline the point that monstrous races are not accepted anywhere. It was no different from anywhere else until GMs decided that PC monster races were just wandering along anywhere they pleased too often without even a hint of disguise and needed a "visual reminder" with no particular reason or lore backing it until making it up on the spot when asked much later. There's a thousand threads or something on "waah dark elf in open but I can't do anything about it" and all that. So they stuck on a sign on it because it was the starting area.
It would be less ridiculous if those of other cities and kingdoms properly posted dark elf heads spiked on fort walls. As it is, because they chose to single out only one city to represent a whole without following through on the whole itself, it is listed in threads like these as "the city they ban dark elves in" instead of the usual.
If there isn't a specific law against them anywhere, then there shouldn't be one in Brelin either. Killing invading goblins and dark elves seems more of a guilty by circumstance law of the land thing than specifically laws against being goblin or dark elf? Laws against raiding, spying, murdering, or whatever... yeah.
So a common thought process would more likely be, "since all dark elves are spying, murdering, raiding individuals..." they are already guilty. In other words, choosing to interpret a law the way they wish... or just being observing of the trend, however you want to call it, heh.
Since the vast majority of dark elves only come in preparation for raids or in full out raids to begin with, how long any particular place waits to punish for the crime they have probably already committed or will no doubt be committing soon no doubt varies, along with how they're dealt with. Some smaller areas might be kill on sight (if they can do it) while others may be stoned, imprisoned, or maybe everyone in a city is so busy trying to steal from or kill each other anyway that everybody is minding their own business to begin with, or you may just end up with some city that makes itself look silly with a sign out front addressing races that can rarely read anyway (orc, goblin, etc).
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Most characters are more forgiving and "enlightened" than they should be given the times, situations and the like. Much of our RP is deeply rooted in 21st century morality and social norms. We, as players, get it into our heads that just because that particular dark elf (or whatever) is played by another player, and as such our characters should treat the other character with the same sort of respect and deference that we might give to the other player(s). However, in the time and setting in which we play, concepts such as gender and racial equality are not universal and in fact are exceptions rather than rules. What constitutes a "fair trial", even by Rofireinite standards, may not be up to the standards we have today. Racial prejudice is not only widespread but pretty much an accepted way of life.
If I may, It may also be because we as player don't want the hassle of risking offending people oocly that takes things too personally when they never were meant to be. And we generally want to have a good playing experience without the grief of always having to think, if I Rp my char as they should be, do I risk hurting the feelings of someone? Because even when you try to make people know oocly in tells that it has nothing personal with them, sometimes you get people that just don't get it.
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If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen, right? If you can't separate IC RP from OOC reality, don't play a dark elf or any other monstrous race, and lighten up in general while you're at it.
Besides, worrying that much about upsetting other people is a 21st Century idea, so you're just proving Dorg's point.
While I'm at it, I would argue it's because of this pussyfoot attitude toward other player's feelings that our characters don't react appropriately and things are broken in general, but that's getting too far off topic. Sorry about that.
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You took it on the wrong side of what I was saying. I don't mind playing them and I absolutely don't mind the heat that comes with it. But sometimes when you play the monster race properly the other side of the playing field don't take it well. Not all mind you most are more than able to take it at face value. But there are some that can't no matter how much you try to be polite about it.
In fact when I created Tyillaan, I expected to have a lot more heat than I got. It was a bit disappointing to say the least. I did get some, had a good moment of rp that happened when Valanca went off to warn the town and all. But that was that. Since then beside Nokka at first, there was nothing more that came her way. Ty is different due to how she was raised and all, but that doesn't mean the other characters would know her up bringing until she told them, if they and she had gain their mutual trust.
What I was referring to, is when you play a monstrous race that is not a scared az'attan kitten (at first like ty) brusque, smart mouthed, and hateful of some faiths. Then it's on the other side that it can be taken oocly, even if it wasn't meant to be.
But anyhow, that's all I have to say about it. It's not always due to how we view equality, but how we don't want the hassle of having to deal with people that can't differentiate IC from OCC
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That's why it's important to make sure the other player is OK with the situation and the RP by using tells, PMs and any other "back channel" means of communication there may be.
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That's why it's important to make sure the other player is OK with the situation and the RP by using tells, PMs and any other "back channel" means of communication there may be.
I whole heartily agree with that. But even that sometimes isn't enough.
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This:
While I'm at it, I would argue it's because of this pussyfoot attitude toward other player's feelings that our characters don't react appropriately and things are broken in general, but that's getting too far off topic. Sorry about that.
was about everyone, on all sides. Dark elves, goblins, whatever aren't as undercover and underground as they really should be, but how can they be with no underground in-game? Besides that, they probably shouldn't be trying to interact with the "normal" population of the world, but what sort of fun is that? No one wants to log in just to go off and be alone. So monstrous races are played in the open, conspicuously covered everywhere they go, like that's not a dead giveaway, just so the player be part of whatever is going on. I'm not saying every player is awful at it, but it's not like life is really hard for those characters.
And the "normal" races are as huggy as ever, maybe not always openly embracing whatever "monsters" are in the group, but not really raising as much fuss as they should. And why not? Because no one wants to leave out the player who chose to play the character destined to be left out! And because what are they really going to do? Argue for an hour instead of doing something fun? I'm as at fault here as anyone else. It's just not worth my time to try to put a monstrous character in his place, so to speak. So we end up with sunburned elves and ugly halflings and such instead of horrible dark elves and nasty little goblins and whatever else, and we all hang out like nothing's amiss.
If the players of monstrous characters acted like they were in danger all the time and if everyone else treated them that way so they actually were (including our friendly neighborhood DMs and their NPCs), without so much concern for player feelings, that would be a huge improvement. I know that sounds harsh, but geez, if someone chooses to play a hated race then they've got it coming. And that's wishful thinking all the way because it will never change. That's why I hate playable monstrous races so much. Here in NWN Layonara, they will never be the experience they should be for any player.
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- Each individual is innocent until proven guilty
Its guilty of being a dark elf.
Burn it.
I know that sounds harsh, but geez, if someone chooses to play a hated race then they've got it coming.
"No, no. I want to play a hated race and be loved!"
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That's why it's important to make sure the other player is OK with the situation and the RP by using tells, PMs and any other "back channel" means of communication there may be.
In my opinion, any player of a monstrous race-character should already by default be "okay" with being attacked on sight by other non-monstrous race characters, regardless of whether they've earned some notability as a "good-one" through prior in-game achievement that not every PC or NPC may know about.
However, that said, I don't always feel like I want to engage in PvP when I happen across a monstrous-race PC, or for that matter a shifter or mage who's transformed into a monstrous-race, or carnivorous animal form unbeknownst to my own character before they bump into eachother. I'll still usually do it though, in order to stay in-character, regardless of whether I enjoy it or not. My routine is usually to first give an in-character verbal warning/ultimatum to the other PC, warning them to leave or violence will ensue. Unfortunately, most such PC's instead of acting with prudence and/or fear as one might expect them to act in areas where the NPC populace (though unrepressented in-game) is hostile toward them seem to instead have the tendency to 'laugh it off' or otherwise lightly disregard the warning and simply stand their ground or further instigate things to the point where violence ensues. Anyhow, I think I'll stop here before I open up a whole other can of worms.
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The fundamental problem with saying that Layonaran civilizations are all fundamentally racist is that it conflicts with its own cosmology. The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true. As I've seen multiple times in game, Az'attans are so dedicated to peace that they will allow themselves to be tortured to death rather than raise their hand against another, even in seeming self-defense.
Given that Az'attans healer/pilgrims are, according to Ed, quite common, I see no reason why racial bigotry would be ever considered viable. Instead, we would much more likely have religious bigotry, which is just as typical a kind of response to low-intensity conflict, if not more so.
And in this regard, I'm not at all certain whether the world team fully thought through just how world changing a spell like "Divine Relation" truly is - almost more so than cheap and easy healing.
Just about anyone who comes under the slightest suspicion (the Layonaran equivalent of a traffic stop) would almost certainly be an immediate subject of the spell. The result would almost certainly reveal Shadonites, Corathites, etc., without much need for any investigative ability whatsoever. And why go further than that? Worshiping Pyrtechon would likely be a crime punishable by death. You don't need to catch them in the act.
Certainly there is the Lucinda/Toran split, but if ever truth needs to be determined, the priests of almost any two different Gods can pinpoint just about any worshiper of any other God with almost perfect accuracy. A Dark Elf (or any elf who dresses like a bandit, covering their face), would naturally be questioned and Relationed. And the only cleric who wouldn't immediately be able to tell a Az'atta worshiper from a Mother of Darkness worshiper would be a Xeenite. [ But everyone knows Xeen goes both ways. :) ]
And that isn't even talking about the fame of PCdom. People who risk their lives touching the stones are rare. People who survive are rarer. If I were a noble with even a drop of sense and/or paranoia in my head, I'd go way out of my way to make a whos-who of every local survivor. These are people you want on your side, not your enemies.
The Dragoncalled/Stonebound have, at bare minimum, one more life than a cat, and thus can gain skills taking on dangers that others would only dream of. I'd trade this knowledge with other rulers in other towns, and keep an eye on all of them. If a dark elf Az'attan like that even stepped a foot on my territory, I'd be having people all over it finding out her history, having clerics surreptitiously check her out, etc.
In addition, there is no reason why the Dragoncalled/Stonebound themselves would not be naturally clubby. They have a searing shared experience, are often companions, and routinely depend on each other to save each other's lives. It's a regular Band of Brothers (and Sisters), which more than accounts for any "Enlightenment" about each others outward appearances.
Now everything I've just said here is made with the following caveat: this isn't my world, so it doesn't have to make sense the way I would expect it to. (Heaven knows, it certainly hasn't in the past.) But until there is a definitive ruling, I think this is at least as reasonable an interpretation as the "hurr hurr kill all darkies" type of RP, which to me seems just profoundly stupid.
Because while you're killing the Az'attan, the human Corathite would be slipping dragon poison into your wine.
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Who needs divine relation?
Someone with a hood and a name containing an apostrophe = dark elf.
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The fundamental problem with saying that Layonaran civilizations are all fundamentally racist is that it conflicts with its own cosmology. The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true. As I've seen multiple times in game, Az'attans are so dedicated to peace that they will allow themselves to be tortured to death rather than raise their hand against another, even in seeming self-defense.
Umm... You haven't shown any link between this:
[INDENT]... "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" ...[/INDENT]
and this:
[INDENT]As I've seen multiple times in game, Az'attans are so dedicated to peace that they will allow themselves to be tortured to death rather than raise their hand against another, even in seeming self-defense.[/INDENT]
that precludes both of them being true.
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Because while you're killing the Az'attan, the human Corathite would be slipping dragon poison into your wine.
Which brings up the truth that the real monsters don't always appear as such!:p
Someone with a hood and a name containing an apostrophe = dark elf.
lol.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts here. Weighing the different points of view, I'm sticking with actions as the only true way to judge someones intent and purpose. *shrugs*
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I'm sticking with actions as the only true way to judge someones intent and purpose. *shrugs*
I think that this:
99.999999% will stab you in the back.
is exactly what that's about though... that does prove their actions. They aren't specific people, they're a collective. Which is more just? Killing one because they are part of a race that kills thousands, or letting one go because they aren't committing evil acts right that second, so they can go and kill ten innocents later on? Think about the larger picture.
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The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true.
If you read about intensely racist sentiments, they are rarely true. Think about Nazi Germany and the American Slave Trade. Were the conclusions drawn about Jewish and people of African descent true? Not in the slightest. Yet, people had their fear whip them in to a frenzy. This likely could happen in Layonara. One little baby massacring dark elf raiding party ruined it for all the good ones.
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Which is more just? Killing one because they are part of a race that kills thousands, or letting one go because they aren't committing evil acts right that second, so they can go and kill ten innocents later on? Think about the larger picture.
I am, and the larger picture is this: If injustice is done to one based on the actions of others, DB has failed to follow Divine Law. What you describe is a mob mentality, not something based on the law.
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One little baby massacring dark elf raiding party ruined it for all the good ones.
Good ones? The -only- good dark elf is a dead one.
~Aerimor Lightbringer and any sensable folk of Layonara.
P.S.: That goes for Alantha and Iradril too. Undermining societal values.... I see through your ploys.
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I am, and the larger picture is this: If injustice is done to one based on the actions of others, DB has failed to follow Divine Law. What you describe is a mob mentality, not something based on the law.
There is nothing wrong with your character holding a minority view, or interpreting the divine law as he sees right. But keep in mind that it is a minority view, and given that Rofirein's courts are willing to incarcerate dwarves in Rael who don't have papers, is it that much of a stretch to imagine his courts would be willing to arrest dark elves for being in civilized places?
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**relaxes back, thoroughly enjoying the bi-yearly debate, discussion, and musing regarding monstrous races and Layonaran societies.**
You know, as long as you only play one-quarter-monster characters that are neutral to all deities, more covered in weapons, and twice as big as those puny little dark elves, people won't try and kill you on sight. They'll back away in fear of you instead. ;) Unless those people are Corathites, large dragons, or royalty. Then they'll try to make a tool out of you.
Given that Az'attans healer/pilgrims are, according to Ed, quite common, I see no reason why racial bigotry would be ever considered viable.
Oh, and simply because Az'attan pilgrims are common enough to be known doesn't mean they're often accepted. Most surface Az'attans are not dark elves, and people preaching racial equality, forgiveness, and redemption are usually laughed at, even if they have divine powers to back them up. Az'attans are often considered heretics and looneys. The exception to this is Audira.
A dark elf trying to preach Az'atta's way would generally be greeted by something like this (particularly on Mistone), assuming he/she was captured instead of outright killed: "Look, boys. This dark elf's gone to the hen house, har! He's cookoo. Can't even figure out what he's supposed to be doing. Az'atta, har! All the more fun stringing him up tomorrow, yeeeee haw."
Instead, we would much more likely have religious bigotry, which is just as typical a kind of response to low-intensity conflict, if not more so.
As for the whole bit about religious bigotry, you're right, and it does happen all the time, despite that you seldom see such IG. You can imagine in Prantz that they keep a close eye on everyone passing through since Sulterio has no allies, and clerics are stationed at the gates. Of course, it's hard for constant religious checking to be enforced on PCs, but Corathites really should not be entering Deliarite temples and expecting much service. The Deliarites may not be able to tell directly that the PC worships Corath (for all they know the PC worships Branderback or Sulterio), but they'll know that something about this creature doesn't sit well with their god. And really, that goes for Rofireinites, too! Deliar doesn't really care for Rofie much, and as such Rofies shouldn't be expecting service in a Deliarite temple. I use Deliarites as an example because their temple is the most frequented by PCs, being that it is also mixed with a marketplace and in Port Hempstead.
I'd trade this knowledge with other rulers in other towns, and keep an eye on all of them.
I tend to agree with this, though it would be hard to nail down the exact number of stonebound people. Most are actually not that famous, particularly not outside a local sphere. I would expect Prantz to have a "stonebound registry" sort of thing, but while Blackford may in fact have a list somewhere of known stonebounds, I wouldn't expect Blackford to require registry.
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I tend to agree with this, though it would be hard to nail down the exact number of stonebound people. Most are actually not that famous, particularly not outside a local sphere. I would expect Prantz to have a "stonebound registry" sort of thing, but while Blackford may in fact have a list somewhere of known stonebounds, I wouldn't expect Blackford to require registry.
Ni'haer dabs some cloth over his sweaty forehead as he reads this.
Whew. Good thing that's not happening.
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I have a question regarding Dark Elves and Divine Law. Last night a pc dark elf openly acknowledged his race and even agreed to travel with another party member to Vehl to be registered as a dark elf at the Temple. It was presented to me that by because of the history of dark elves, the simple open presence of one on Mistone is a violation of the law. I'm aware that some cities like Hempstead ban Dark Elves openly, but what of the surrounding countryside? Is it legal to arrest and incarcerate a dark elf that is following the law simply because he or she is a dark elf? I spent some time in Lore and haven't found a single thing to back this statement up. Quite the contrary in fact. As stated in the Law of Layonara -
Principles of the Divine Court- Justice will be done in line with the dogma of Rofirein
- Each individual has a right to a fair trial
- Each individual is innocent until proven guilty
- Each individual has the right to appoint a representative to speak for him on his behalf
For my primary character, Daniel, only actions and clear plausible statements of ill intent can be judged. To him, if another character regardless of race is being truthful and following the law to the best of their ability, there is no just cause for an arrest. Links and thoughts that would give this matter some clarity?
Good question cb and we'll look into creating some more info and putting it out there for everyone. Stay tuned.
I see no reason why racial bigotry would be ever considered viable
Then I suggest reading up.
LORE: Dwarf: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Dwarf:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: Elf: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Elf:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: Halfling: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Halfling:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: Gnome: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Gnome:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: Grimal: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Grimal:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: Brokanian: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Brokanian:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: t'oleflor: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/t%27oleflor:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
LORE: Human: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion (http://lore.layonara.com/Human:%20Relations,%20Environment,%20Society,%20Religion)
and please stop dragging in Az'attans by the hairs.
Your point:
The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true.
Is wrong. Why? Read the history, the timeline, and previous posts made by me and other GMs on the subject, dark elves are bad news. A couple of Az'attans, a few PC dark elves or the entire Az'attan church for that matter, isn't going to change that perception. (But that church will try anyway, it's called idealism, or perhaps even a form of fanaticism)
Mothers and Fathers tell their children that if they're not good then the dark elves might come and hurt their families and then how would they feel if the last thing they did was fight with their parents over eating their vegetables or doing chores? They are the boogey men, the monsters under the bed and in the closet. They are the reason people are afraid of the dark.
This is indeed what happens, and anyone stating that is not so, is simply wrong. I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.
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A dark elf trying to preach Az'atta's way would generally be greeted by something like this (particularly on Mistone), assuming he/she was captured instead of outright killed: "Look, boys. This dark elf's gone to the hen house, har! He's cookoo. Can't even figure out what he's supposed to be doing. Az'atta, har! All the more fun stringing him up tomorrow, yeeeee haw."
Have a care about this, Milton. My assertion that the religion of Az'atta, was written up in such a way that almost all worshipers outside Audira would be quickly killed off (as they are hated by all sides and religiously bound to be almost completely defenseless along with carrying an easily identifiable mark), was something that Ed vociferously disagreed with. And in fact, became incensed that I dared to assert.
So somehow Az'attans manage to avoid being strung up or stabbed in the back enough to survive and do their work. By world builder fiat. End of story. (It's never really been explained how, but maybe the goddess personally intervenes herself gently guides her flock out of danger all the time.)
And regardless of whether they're dark elves themselves or not Az'attans worship a Dark Elf. Dark elves dominate their religious hierarchy. That is not something that would just be ignored, especially by the beneficiaries of the religion's charity.
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Well, according to Ed, that last statement isn't true. Apparently the whole church of Az'atta has no appreciable effect on the perceptions of the world, even though a Level 0 clerical cantrip can tell the difference between a "good one" who will do whatever she can to save your life, and a "bad one" who will do whatever he can to end it. By worldbuilder fiat. End of story.
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Have a care about this, Milton. My assertion that the religion of Az'atta, was written up in such a way that almost all worshipers outside Audira would be quickly killed off (as they are hated by all sides and religiously bound to be almost completely defenseless along with carrying an easily identifiable mark), was something that Ed vociferously disagreed with. And in fact, became incensed that I dared to assert.
That's quite an assumption to make, me being incensed. I've made my case before (thread reference below) and classifying me as being angry is not something I think you should be doing based on written forum posts.
So somehow Az'attans manage to avoid being strung up or stabbed in the back enough to survive and do their work. By world builder fiat. End of story. (It's never really been explained how, but maybe the goddess personally intervenes herself gently guides her flock out of danger all the time.)
Not going to have that discussion again, I've made my stance clear, if people want to read up, this is the thread (http://forums.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster/240642-strangeness-azatta-page.html).
And regardless of whether they're dark elves themselves or not Az'attans worship a Dark Elf. Dark elves dominate their religious hierarchy. That is not something that would just be ignored, especially by the beneficiaries of the religion's charity.
Which is why a dark elf claiming to be an az'attan better rpove real quick he's the real deal or he'll risk getting killed by a mob/guard/militiaman.
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There is nothing wrong with your character holding a minority view, or interpreting the divine law as he sees right. But keep in mind that it is a minority view, and given that Rofirein's courts are willing to incarcerate dwarves in Rael who don't have papers, is it that much of a stretch to imagine his courts would be willing to arrest dark elves for being in civilized places?
The courts in Prantz are NOT Rofireinite courts! They are Rael's courts with Rofireinite observers. It's a loose agreement by which Rael hopes to get some cred and the Rofireinites get to try to influence things. That's it.
And I agree with CB. You can't go around jailing people for what they might do and truly be just. It sucks, but someone has to actually do something criminal before they can rightfully be detained, and it all has to pass the courts with evidence and all that good stuff to stick. I can't count the times Jennara has wanted to do something about someone who might (or probably would) do something and didn't (couldn't, really) because it never would have held up at trial. It wouldn't have been just. I think the "for the greater good" concept you're describing better fits the Toranites as a church position rather than the Rofireinites or the Divine Law.
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Apologies for the inaccuracy - I would argue that some measure of condoning is still present, although your correction certainly weakens my argument.
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even though a Level 0 clerical cantrip can tell the difference between a "good one" who will do whatever she can to save your life, and a "bad one" who will do whatever he can to end it.
Note that most communities would not have a cleric available to "test" the dark elves. This might work at the gates to a city, or after the dark elf has been arrested by a local guard, but in places that have no regulated military/government/clergy readily accessible (most of the world, actually), there are no guarantees that the dark elf will have a chance to prove, as Ed suggests, their "goodness."
Also, there are "good" gods that treat Az'atta as an enemy or unfriendly. If an Az'attan dark elf managed to find herself in a dwarven community and the only clergy was a Voraxian, she could pretty much write herself off, heh.
A human worshipper of Az'atta, on the other hand, entering that same dwarven community might be questioned after he admits he serves Az'atta and the cleric determines he is indeed considered an 'unfriendly' by Vorax. He'd likely even be held for a time to determine he wasn't a threat, but would then otherwise be dismissed as, "One o' dem crazies. Worshippin' 'good darkies.'" *snicker, snicker* He might even be asked to leave, but they wouldn't string him up.
This is why the 'worldbuilders' can say that Az'attans aren't wholesale slaughtered outside Audira--because most aren't dark elves, and for that very reason, even if they worship a supposed (I say 'supposed,' because it's not uncommon for the layperson to choose to believe that such a concept as the existence of a good dark elven god to be impossible) dark elf, they're not going to be killed on sight. If there's a hidden Corathite or Ca'duzite in the community, that might change the situation, but even then, the killing wouldn't be a public display unless the Az'attan was a dark elf.
So, yes, you're right in that dark elf worshippers of Az'atta, stonebound or otherwise, would/should/could run into severe trouble outside Audira. But as I understand it, the majority of the faith that lives on the surface is not comprised of dark elves, and therefore would not be at risk of mass execution, regardless of the fact that they worship a dark elf.
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That's quite an assumption to make, me being incensed. I've made my case before (thread reference below) and classifying me as being angry is not something I think you should be doing based on written forum posts.
After further consideration, I agree that the word I used, "incensed", is too strong, and I withdraw it, with apologies.
You did, however, characterize my plea that you be explicit about the vast limitations that you put on all PCs of the Az'attan faith into the LORE (as opposed to stating it in half a dozen scattered posts) as "derogatory", when it clearly wasn't. I'll leave it up to other readers to decide whether that characterization came from anger over my hard questions or not.
Beyond that, yes, I agree. Az'atta is exactly as you say she is. So let's drop it.
Which is why a dark elf claiming to be an az'attan better rpove real quick he's the real deal or he'll risk getting killed by a mob/guard/militiaman.
I again agree, although there is nothing I can see the dark elf would need to do to "prove" anything. (Nobody would trust a Dark Elf's word anyway.) Instead, the local priest of just about any local church, a massively powerful Level 1 Cleric, would be called in to make the determination.
And if you think about it, pretty soon this would be standard operating procedure. A non-human? Divine Relation him. A stranger? Divine Relation him. Something possibly stolen? Round up anyone you don't know, Divine Relation. You yourself suggested that one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation.
In such an environment, the color of your skin would mean nothing. But devotion to any of the less savory gods (including the Dark Elf gods of the Deep, but more commonly, Shadonites) would be the mark of death.
I don't know if this is what you intended. But it is the natural result of the spells you put into the world.
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Fine with dropping Az'atta from this discussion :)
I am going to comment on the words you are saying I said though.
First the "derogatory", I said the tone of your post seemed derogatory (http://forums.layonara.com/1400632-post72.html) in tone.
Second, regarding You yourself suggested that one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation.
I did no such thing.
I said here (http://forums.layonara.com/1400972-post78.html):
Sure, they are hard to anticipate, but an Az'attan wouldn't be as naive to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.
I didn't say anything about assassins and divine relations.
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And if you think about it, pretty soon this would be standard operating procedure. A non-human? Divine Relation him. A stranger? Divine Relation him. Something possibly stolen? Round up anyone you don't know, Divine Relation.
I'm mildly confused as to how people could narrow down devotion to an evil deity. Divine Relation doesn't actually tell you which deity someone serves. Perhaps you could assume in some cases that "enemies" are flat going to be evil (though I can't think of any gods off the top of my head who's enemies are all evil - unless you/the community decides that Shadon and Branderback are "evil," which you seem to take as a possibility). I recall you mentioning that if you had deities from two different faiths working together it would be easier to narrow down the baddies, and that makes sense, and would be useful in the cities. Outside of the few cities around the world, you'd be hard pressed to find two clerics of differing faiths in the same community.
Someone in Fort Llast that gets "divine relationed" as an enemy by the Toranites certainly couldn't be assumed to be the servant of an evil god, unless he/she is a dark elf, heh.
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Well, there's D&D evil and then there's "anything opposed to my own fanatical worldview" evil.
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Second, regarding I did no such thing.
Sure, they are hard to anticipate, but an Az'attan wouldn't be as naive to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.
I didn't say anything about assassins and divine relations.
I didn't say anything about assassins and divine relations.
That was directly as a refutation of what I was saying, in part:
Corathites are hard to anticipate, because they don't wave a skull and crossbones from a mile away. Instead, members of Cortath's church are all disguised. They'll fake an injury and then plant the poison dagger in the Cleric who tries to heal them (or use any one of hundreds of other methods of killing the undefended Az'attan).
Your response was pretty clearly intended to say that one way you an Az'attan avoids Corathite assassins (and thus manages to live another day), is by using Divine Relation. So I'm not exactly sure how you can say you "did no such thing".
I'm not trying to beat you up here, Ed. I just don't understand why there are these distinctions made. To me, Divine Relation is in Layonara as an alternative to "Detect Evil" out of AD&D. But D.E. and D.G. was never thought through from a societal point of view, and like a lot of ill thought out D&D spells, screws up fantasy world plotting like crazy. It basically renders any form of surreptitiousness nearly impossible to pull off. Which is one reason why every subsequent fantasy game world dropped it like a hot potato (Tekumel, Runequest, etc.).
But if you're going to have that kind of a spell that cheap, then expect it to be used. Az'attan priestesses use it on people they're going to heal to make sure it isn't a Corathite assassin they're healing. And every Rofie seeing anyone suspicious at the gate will use it as well.
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Go to a dark elf city and read a law written about what an individual has a right too...then raise your human hand and see them cut it off!
Dark elves are monsters and not of the surface. When the laws of humans, elves, and dwarves, ect.. were written, they were not taking into account illithads, dark elves, dragons, beholders, demons ect...
On that note, the maker of the the first wagon probably also didn't take into account seating for giants!
My opinion on the laws of races and taking into account other races, especially when considering a monstrous race vs a "normal" one.
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In my opinion, any player of a monstrous race-character should already by default be "okay" with being attacked on sight by other non-monstrous race characters, regardless of whether they've earned some notability as a "good-one" through prior in-game achievement that not every PC or NPC may know about.
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I couldn't agree more, until I flip the coin over and look at the other side...
The other side of that coin is that a non-monstrous race player should be by default "okay" with being attacked on sight by other monstrous race characters...
You can't have one without the other...
This is not an open pvp server, therefore open attacking is what it is!
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I couldn't agree more, until I flip the coin over and look at the other side...
The other side of that coin is that a non-monstrous race player should be by default "okay" with being attacked on sight by other monstrous race characters...
You can't have one without the other...
This is not an open pvp server, therefore open attacking is what it is!
By all means, flip the coin over where and when it makes sense, such as out in the wilderness where there wouldn't be a multitude of (unrepressented mechanically, but still pressent) non-monstrous NPC's ready to aid non-monstrous PC's being attacked by the monstrous ones.
However, if Layonara isn't meant to have much PvP, one has to wonder why monstrous-race PC's were ever allowed (especially with starting alignment requirements that put them in oposition to most other PC's), and why subsequently the PvP Widget was introduced.
It seems to me, PvP resulting from proper RP and In-Character reasonings is in fact encouraged by the systems in place, and should be taking place more often than it does. The reason it doesn't, as stated by others elsewhere in the thread, is that everybody wants to play with their buddies, and almost no one wants to waste time with PC vs PC tensions on the PvP scale when they're on to play and relax. The general attitude is "to heck with how things should be RPed based on races, and dieties if it gets in the way of that fun". Which brings us back to the question of, "Why have playable monstrous races at all then?" The answer to which is, "To satisfy those who enjoy playing bad guys, or odd-balls that aren't of the standard playable races."
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However, if Layonara isn't meant to have much PvP, one has to wonder why monstrous-race PC's were ever allowed (especially with starting alignment requirements that put them in oposition to most other PC's), and why subsequently the PvP Widget was introduced.
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Because when layo was created we were all dragon called and each had a connection, no matter the race to "fight" as one for the most part. We were all following the summon of the dragon, with of course our own interests mixed in here and there. Also, evil was not allowed without a CDQ, 1 year playing time on that pc. You couldn't create evil from the get.
The widget and changes for pvp, came as the changes of the game over time occurred. The ever evolving world of online gaming! Who knows, maybe one day it will be open pvp...
Also these changes do offer an alternative means to allow pvp, but were not meant for an open pvp system. In fact, the widget and changes are the exact opposite of "open" pvp. The intent behind the widget was to offer pvp without a dm to witness or approve!
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That was directly as a refutation of what I was saying, in part:
Your response was pretty clearly intended to say that one way you an Az'attan avoids Corathite assassins (and thus manages to live another day), is by using Divine Relation. So I'm not exactly sure how you can say you "did no such thing".
You take my reply to an example you gave, do not mention that example and then state I said they'd Divine Relation everyone to make sure they're not an assassin.
Referring to previous statements made by me is fine, but then quote them as a whole. Don't say "Ed said this" when I actually did not say that.
I'm not trying to beat you up here, Ed.
What you are doing is on several occasions attribute something to me, but when you do so put your own interpretation on it, making it something I actually did not say. Or you take something I said in response to an example which you turn into something general. I then have to correct the picture you're painting and clearing away the mist you're generating.
But if you're going to have that kind of a spell that cheap, then expect it to be used. Az'attan priestesses use it on people they're going to heal to make sure it isn't a Corathite assassin they're healing. And every Rofie seeing anyone suspicious at the gate will use it as well.
First, please remember that it is not a spell in the D&D mechanical sense, see LORE LORE: Divine relation (http://lore.layonara.com/Divine%20relation)
Second, what you're not considering in your posts is the practicality of it all. If a cleric had to go around looking at everyone all day, trying to get a feel if they perhaps worship somebody that your deity isn’t friends with, you'd become paranoid. Getting an unfriendly or enemy feeling doesn’t immediately imply the other one is out to kill you.
And if a city decided everyone suspicious needs to be divine relationed by multiple clerics at a gate before gaining entrance in order to determine if somebody followed an evil deity then you can be sure that city's trade would dry up, farmers from outlying farms would be thoroughly annoyed to go through it every day, citizens of the city leaving and returning would be annoyed at the long wait and the clear and apparent mistrust by the authorities so much that the entire idea won't last long.
Also consider that the vast majority of people have not devoted themselves to a single deity and pray to whatever deity is convenient at the time. So they'd always come up neutral which tells you exactly nothing, time wasted by the clergy that would be on divine relation duty at the gate.
So, not thought about from a societal point of view? I beg to differ.
And now I'm afraid I have to go off topic.
Instead of coming in guns blazing, axes swinging, and stating it wasn't thought out, comparing it to other "ill-thought out spells", stating it screws up fantasy world plotting (implying Layonara or its plots are screwed up in the process), you could have also brought it differently and in a normal way like the vast majority of people here do.
For example "With this Divine Relation spell, how would that work in practice and affect daily life? Because when I think of it, I come up with this and that so how does that work?" and leave out all of the negative comments and labels.
It’s not fair against the players who play in this world and make it richer with their characters, the writers who devote their time to writing up this world, the LORE team who puts it all up for everyone to read, the programmers, area builders forum admins and scripters who allow people to experience this world online, character approvers who review and approve bios and the GMs who try and make it all come alive. Having discussions and asking questions is fine, and I’ve never shied away from joining discussions or answering questions, but I will not let things like this pass without commenting.
You may call it defensive, and perhaps that’s what it is, but I’ll gladly come in and defend all who come to our world for their fun and enjoyment as well as all who work both behind and in front of the scenes to make this all possible.
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post moved here (http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/271392-getting-rid-divine-relation-vfx.html#post1625372)
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You take my reply to an example you gave, do not mention that example and then state I said they'd Divine Relation everyone to make sure they're not an assassin.
First off, Ed, if we're going to speak of mischaracterization, you just did so in this sentence. My actual words were: "You yourself suggested that one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation."
Please note. This did not include the phrase "they'd Divine Relation everyone", or any of the other non-factual strawmen you have decided to construct in debating me. In fact, your actual quote was this: Sure, they are hard to anticipate, but an Az'attan wouldn't be as naive to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.
Any reasonable person would see that you were indeed saying that "one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation", which is why I paraphrased you that way. And yet you insist that I am somehow misquoting you. It is inexplicable.
You also appear determined to mischaracterize my observation. I never said that it was logical that an "alignment detection" type spell would be used on farmers or anyone else who was a well known local, but only on strangers, especially suspicious ones. And as you have already decided that Layonara is an intensely low population world, with a mere 8 million inhabitants scattered across all its continents, strangers coming into town must be, by logic, an incredibly unusual event.
In the world that you have described, travel is long and arduous, and even meeting people on the road is likely to be rare. And so far you have not come up with a single reason why any of the many tiny fortified cities, like Hlint, would not use the spells they have available to check the handful of people coming in and out of their towns on a daily basis. Especially mysterious completely cloaked elves with apostrophes in their names, when worshipers of Ca'Duz and the Mother of Darkness are universally hated.
I will grant you that in some cases the spell you outlined might not be as useful when the person being scanned worships no god. But again, "no god" is merely another religious category, and one which is hardly likely to engender trust. Layonara is, I hope you would agree, a fantasy medieval setting - and infidels did not always fare that well in our own medieval period.
Now let me finally address your "off-topic" remark. In addition to being wrong about my mischaracterising your statement (as I have already shown above), you are also of the belief that my observations about AD&D Detect Evil and Detect Good, and my assertion that these types of spells (including, it fair to characterize, Divine Relation) "renders any form of surreptitiousness nearly impossible to pull off", means, perforce that this is "implying Layonara or its plots are screwed up in the process". And further that this "negative comment or label", "is not fair" to the "players", "writers", "LORE team", "programmers", "area builders", "forum admins", "scripters", "character approvers", and "GMs".
(Incidentally I have used direct quotes here, so as not to be subject to any further strained argument on your part.)
To which I respond this: if the President of the United States is expected to routinely receive questions that might imply that things aren't going quite as well as he would wish - and perhaps even that he might have made a mistake - without it being assumed that the questioner is "not being fair" to the People of the United States, Freedom, the World, and anyone else (including "players", "writers", "LORE team", "programmers", "area builders", "forum admins", "scripters", "character approvers", and "GMs" who reside within it), then maybe... just maybe, you might be able to summon enough humility to do likewise.
Especially when the topic is about whether there might be some unanticipated side effects that you might not have fully considered in terms of play balancing a spell or two.
p.s. If you persist in keeping things the way you are, which I'm sure you're going to, at least warn the GMs against plotting a "whodunnit" scenario with a disguised Corathite as the killer. Otherwise that session may end up being torpedoed by a PC before its even begun.
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Alright...
This thread has officially spun way off course. What is likely to come past this point is neither going to be productive to the original point nor is it likely to not dissolve further into a dissection of what was/wasn't said, what is/isn't the subjective interpretation of one or more parties, hyperbole and scenarios which may or may not exist.
And so at this point, I am eagerly looking for a reason not to lock this thread, as I generally try to foster productive conversations, even if they go against the grain.
What I have read above, filtering out the more semantic discussion of who said what and what it means, it seems there continues to be confusion as to what Divine Relation is and even what it is not.
Divine Relation:
- is mechanically a spell, because that's the mechanism we have available to us through the NWN game engine.
- is not in "reality" a spell but rather a prayer that gives the cleric a sort of sense in return. It is little more than a feeling, in truth.
- is a way for a cleric to know how his/her deity feels about the individual in question, and that feeling is based upon the individual's faith. When said individual does not have a strong devotion to any particular deity, the cleric gets no feeling about the individual whatsoever.
- is not any sort of "I win" mechanism.
- does not give specific information as to which deity a target follows. Read this again, because it is pretty important.
- is far less powerful than meta-gaming someone's character's deity information through submission/approval threads.
- will not detect alignment in any way.
- will not detect intent in any way.
- will not detect a Dark Elf on its own.
- is not ever going to be useful to screen people from entering a town or city
On the last, here's an example to illustrate my point.
Divine Relation is, by its very name, a Divine "spell", usable only by clerics. So if one was going to post a cleric at the gates, which cleric would you choose?
A Toranite? Divine relation would give an "unfriendly" feeling from Lucindites, Ilsarians, Deliarites, Berylites and Aragenites, the first four being Good aligned deities.
A Rofireinite? Divine relation would give an "unfriendly" feeling from followers of Ilsare, Deliar and Az'atta.
An Aragenite? Guess what? They're neutral to everyone.
How about a Deliarite outside of Port Hempstead. Ooops, looks like Deliar hates Toran more than Toran dislikes Deliar. I guess that won't fly too well.
The point is that one can simply not read too much into Divine Relation, nor is it a practical tool for screening people before they enter a city or town, especially considering that most large cities have a presence of multiple and sometimes opposed deities within them (though we typically only represent the most prevalent one(s) for reasons of technology) and many small towns have absolutely no persistent divine presence within them at all. No matter how much "sense" someone thinks it would make or how invasive someone may think it is or how "powerful" people expect it to be, it simply isn't the case.
Divine Relation is nothing more than a tool that helps clerics properly RP their faiths and the conflicts their deities have with other deities, as we expect them to do. It allows them to make an informed choice as to whether or not to heal, raise or otherwise impart blessings of their deity onto another.
That's it really.
But even this is off topic.
So if anyone has anything else to add to the topic at hand, feel free.
If someone wishes to continue a debate on Divine Relation, please start a new thread.
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@SteveMaurer, you've just proven my point again with your most recent post.
I won't be drawn further into a dissection of sentences or posts. I'll happily address any concerns or questions you have, but you're going to have to change your tone and the way you say things/bring them across in order for that to happen.