The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: ycleption on May 06, 2010, 04:38:08 PM
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It would be really nice to have some of the brewing recipes be more difficult to craft. Right now its impossible for characters to advance very high in food crafting using alcohols, and more importantly, there is nothing that has a prestige attached to it, nothing that is the pinnacle of the brewmaster's art. I'd be happy to come up with some specific numbers if that would help, but as is, all the high end alcohols are just too easy to make.
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Funny thing, brewing is far more demanding than baking and cooking in real life, yet is reversed here. I would personally prefer it to be the other way round.
If we could have a change, perhaps a way to maintain balance would be to lower the difficulty on food while raising it on brews?
And I would be happy to work with you on it.
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What about seperating them? Making brewmaking its own tradeskill, and then stretching out the recipies to cover a longer level range.
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Please, no separate craft for brewing ;)
But I do like the idea of stretching out the recipes' % ranging towards the % of pies and such!
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how about (as a pinnacle of the craft):
Champagne
Undosed Champagne:
two bottles Xeenite wine (cuvee)
one bottle Red Crow Cream Ale (cuvee)
four sugar (tirage)
one crushed pearl (tirage)
two brewer's yeast (riddling)
one A bottle of water (disgorging)
three salt (digorging)
one scroll of ice storm (disgorging)
one empty brewing bottle
-the above produces one "Undosed Champagne"
A Bottle of Champagne:
one Undosed Champagne
four sugar crystals
one potion of eagle's splendor
one bottle Xeenite wine
Give one Bottle of Champagne with three or four drinks on it. Be nice if it had a regen effect like tobacco or maybe a small spell like the holy wafers.
All above ingredients are in game.
Edit: this is not because Andrew wants higher quality stuff to get drunk on. Honest!
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I knew this wasnt a new idea.... cause I remembered saying make a couple Rum recipies before.
http://forums.layonara.com/cnr-suggestions-discussion/103195-some-more-difficult-brewing-recipes.html
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Juniber berries would make lovely Genever or gin
Walnuts make wonderful walnut snaps
etc
I do like the idea of champagne but I still think that brewing and cooking need to be reversed in difficulty. Let some of the ales and stouts be the hardest to brew.
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I dont really think anything has to be done to the food recipies in cooking. Why not re evaluate all the brews, possibly adding new ones as well. Then spreading their difficulty out more across the spectrum of cooking.
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I'm not really suggesting new recipes, because that gets into the whole palette size, too many items debate - just making some of the existing brews more difficult (as chaz nicely puts it "stretching out the percentile range of difficulty)
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Yep... and I'd say the highest the DC vs. being drunk the harder it should be to make (although a lot of the ales have the same DC... ask Oma, she sampled them all).
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From a balancing perspective the difficulty in making them ought to follow the rarity or difficulty in obtaining the ingredients. Especially in obtaining them in quantity. Otherwise we risk just creating a new tier of level up recipes. Hence, any review of difficulty in crafting ought to include a review of the recipe.
I also think we need to consider the craft as a whole. Changing one leg of the craft (brewing) without considering the other leg (cooking and baking) sounds to me like a recipe for balancing issues.
But I really really like the idea of having a selection of "master brews".
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To me the 2 tradeskills seem to have been stuck together as a matter of convienence. I have caracters that cook that have no intention of brewing nor learning how to brew. Yes since they are high level cooking they could do any brew probably trivial... but it just isnt the same as cooking IMO.
Why not:
1. Split the two apart. Those who consider themselves brewmasters be given X number of levels in brew making compared to their current food crafting level.
2. Go thru every brewing recipie and spreading them out more than they are now. Also taking into acount the difficulty in obtaining the components and raising the ones that are harder to aquire, then lower the easier to aquire ones (if needed). As mentioned before to keep this from becoming an easy XP kinda thing
3. Consider adding new recipies I'm not saying add 30 new recipes... maybe 5 or 6 tops. If the pallete is "that close" to bursting already then fine dont. I doubt we are to that point.
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3. Consider adding new recipies I'm not saying add 30 new recipes... maybe 5 or 6 tops. If the pallete is "that close" to bursting already then fine dont. I doubt we are to that point.
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Just to be clear on this one aspect, yes it is 'that close' unfortunately. We are at a state where in order to add new things we -must- remove old things. There's no more real room to grow.
~row
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Heh well its spring after all.. lets do some spring cleaning! :)
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We have Whiskey, so let's add Rum and Vodka too! *grins*
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Just to be clear on this one aspect, yes it is 'that close' unfortunately. We are at a state where in order to add new things we -must- remove old things. There's no more real room to grow.
~row
Well I'm not sure if it's total palette size that is the problem or something else. But going through the palette recently to do something for a player event I noticed that there was a lot of duplicate items in it. Me and Milton noticed it also when setting up feh and talia's wedding. There are duplicate things in the palette that could be taken out and that would free out some space. There is a lot of duplicates in the heads also, which I don't know if it comes in to play, but that could be an other place to look for space if it is part of the overall problems.
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To me the 2 tradeskills seem to have been stuck together as a matter of convienence. I have caracters that cook that have no intention of brewing nor learning how to brew. Yes since they are high level cooking they could do any brew probably trivial... but it just isnt the same as cooking IMO.
Without expressing a strong opinion one way or the other, I would just point out that many crafts encompass skills that are "stuck together for convenience." Tailoring, for instance, has tanning, cordwaining (shoemaking), spinning and clothmaking, leather armorcraft, and even actual tailoring... "gemcrafting" encompasses the distinct arts of lapidary work and gem-setting... scribing has ink-making and then the magical part.
So while yes, you are correct that the skills aren't necessarily transferable between the two as far as "realism (http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/271622-reality-what-extent-fantasy-realm.html)" goes ;), I think that they are close enough to come within the term "food crafting" for game mechanical purposes.
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Heh well its spring after all.. lets do some spring cleaning! :)
Well I'm not sure if it's total palette size that is the problem or something else. But going through the palette recently to do something for a player event I noticed that there was a lot of duplicate items in it. Me and Milton noticed it also when setting up feh and talia's wedding. There are duplicate things in the palette that could be taken out and that would free out some space. There is a lot of duplicates in the heads also, which I don't know if it comes in to play, but that could be an other place to look for space if it is part of the overall problems.
No, Rowana is very right.
We have come up against a hard limit within Bioware's code, and when this limit is exceeded, it becomes impossible for GMs to log into the game.
I'm not sure which palette you were looking through yourself, but Bioware's "Standard" palette is irrelevant here. We can't change that palette and it doesn't factor into our overall count. It's our number of custom objects, between creatures, items and placeables. This hard limit applies to everything in the various palettes, not just in one specific category.
We have (and no, I'm not exaggerating):- 3402 Placeables
- 2315 Creatures
- 4935 Items
On the matter of duplicates, there may well be some within the placeable palette, but what might appear as a duplicate may actually be two placeables with identical appearances created for two separate purposes and with different properties. For example, there are placeables used for crafting stations, which are usable, have scripts attached and so forth, but there are also placeables which look identical to these which are just for decoration, and are static without the ability to click on or use them. Many other may not be used directly (i.e. placed in the module) but get auto-created by our various systems.
So one cannot go on appearances alone.
Heads are not a factor, as they are not palette items.
The size of the task to "de-dupe" the palette is, in a word, monumental. It would take tens, if not hundreds of hours of effort to weed out the duplicate and obsolete objects within the palette, verifying against what is placed in the modules and what is created or used by scripts, and at the end of that all, I'm fairly confident we'd not end up with a whole lot more space, and that is simply not a worthwhile use of time.
So please, do not underestimate the difficulty of "looking for space." Since this problem became an issue for us, I have been extremely careful about what is added to the palette.
There is some room, but not much, and unfortunately not enough to just add things because it would be "neat".
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Oh I wasn't implying it would be easy. Just that there were some things that seemed duplicates. Thanks for clarifying the heads things as I thought they were part of the palette. Good explanation as always Dorg.
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We will not be separating crafts.
Besides the points that ycleption made, there are other considerations. First, some parts of it are not easily separated, as there is overlap between cooking and brewing. Besides that, I'd somehow have to go through and re-figure everyone's craft skill XP based on what was earned in what way. This again is very much an effort vs. value consideration, and the value, other than the "neat" factor, just isn't there.
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If we all agreed not to have you go through the xp we gained to adjust it upward or such, would it be more value like? Or are you talking about assigning an xp reward based on the %?
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Um, no, I'm talking about separating the current "Cooking" craftskill XP into "Cooking" and "Brewing" craftskill XP based on what was crafted.
So if someone had 10000 XP in the Cooking craft, then after the split, they might have (for instance) 6712 XP in Cooking and 3288 XP in Brewing.
It's irrelevant though, because I'm not separating brewing out of cooking. If I did, I should separate paper making out too, and that's a whole other set of messes that I just don't think will add any real value to the world, nor will it truly change anyone's enjoyment of the craft(s).
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Ah okay now I see what you meant.