Post by: akata on August 30, 2010, 01:56:39 PM
I normally stay well out of the team's decisions and trust them to rule fairly. Even though requests are handled on a case-to-case basis then they are still saved and used for later references. There are also some contradictions in the team's reasoning that confuses me, therefore I'll voice my concern on this particular case.
In this case the player xiaobeibi has given both IC and OOC reasons to his request (http://"http://forums.layonara.com/character-submissions/276962-galathea-arnaduillae-request-domain-change-alignment-shift.html" target="_blank") to change domains.
OOC:
"New" heal kits and potions, regardless of if you're for or against them then the new healing kits have made it easier to travel without the aid of a cleric, under the 3.2 (http://"http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-server/223362-layonara-3-2-release-notes.html" target="_blank") release notes=>healing supplies the changes made from the old to the new heal kits and potions can be viewed, it is even posted that "Potions and heal kits are much more powerful" stack size up to 50 and weight was lowered. Thereby enabling everyone to carry large amounts of healing without being weighted down. In my experience the better potions have diminished the need for a healer, thereby making the healing cleric less needed and the healing domain less attractive from an OOC view compared to before the changes in potions and heal kits.
IC:
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In Galathea's request, so much of her development has gone on unrecorded and to the vast majority of the staff she has not moved far from the roll of healer, in fact moved closer to it by our measures. |
Contradicting /confusing Information:
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To address some raised points about her other efforts, even with her actions on certain quests where she has used her divine gifts from Beryl to perform miracles and her CDQ with Dezza, the vast majority of us still feel she is more the healer now then she was the first 20 levels of her life. Her actions, her miraculous efforts still fall pretty squarely in the 'general Berylite' effort line for us. Any devout Berylite, regardless of domain, would be allowed to attempt such miracles. |
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In accompaniment to the above we are requiring two CDQs for domain change. The contents of those CDQs will be largely between yourself and your selected GM, but it should deal with the wholeness of moving away from healing all together and stepping into the earthen domain |
Regards
Akata
Post by: Dorganath on August 30, 2010, 08:22:38 PM
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Originally Posted by akata  OOC: "New" heal kits and potions, regardless of if you're for or against them then the new healing kits have made it easier to travel without the aid of a cleric, under the 3.2 release notes=>healing supplies the changes made from the old to the new heal kits and potions can be viewed, it is even posted that "Potions and heal kits are much more powerful" stack size up to 50 and weight was lowered. Thereby enabling everyone to carry large amounts of healing without being weighted down. In my experience the better potions have diminished the need for a healer, thereby making the healing cleric less needed and the healing domain less attractive from an OOC view compared to before the changes in potions and heal kits. |
Now, I'm not invalidating xiaobeibi's observations and opinions at all, but at the same time, what feedback has reached me does not agree with the assessment that the 3.2 update has somehow made the cleric class less valuable.
So the assertion caught my attention, and if it seemed to be true, I was personally willing to put my support behind the domain change, since OOC and mechanics changes have long been grounds for character adjustments. The problem is, I haven't really seen anything to back up the assertion.
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It is no secret that large part of the staff are busy working on the mmo, some are busy in RL and others have simply burned out. |
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The current activity of GM:s is at the lowest I have experienced in my 5 years here as an active player, therefore I can't help to wonder how many of the vast majority that feel that way due to only knowing Galathea through her work with the hospital and not through quests or observing her RP. |
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The player don't keep a CDT and I can understand that it makes it hard for the team to support requests due to the lack of recorded evidence... |
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...in the cases that lack support in the form of CDT I will therefore suggest that the player be allowed to gather support in the form of not only GM: s but players in the same way as is being done for SS returns under the GP system. The people playing on a regular basis are after all more likely to give an accurate impression/view on the character. Something else I find highly troubling is that in the end a decision seem to have been made to discard the input by the single most informed GM in favour of less informed individuals. |
You're proposing a change in policy, and further, you're proposing we do so in the middle of an active request and one that would likely result in an approval of the character. That's fine, and I respect that. The problem is that we don't normally change policies in the midst of such requests, and on those rare occasions we have, it has been for a very good reason, such as an oversight on our part, and it has been done so in a way that is still (hopefully) seen as fair and reasonable to everyone in the community.
Second, and I cannot stress this enough, absolutely no one's opinion on the GM team, informed or otherwise, was discarded in the discussion of Galathea's request. If anything, Dezza's comments were more instrumental in understanding Galathea's progress than anything else that was said. I hope your opinion of the team and its ability to reach a fair decision based on what we can see and verify in an objective way is not truly as low as it sounds in that statement.
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Contradicting /confusing Information: What strikes me here is that the "general Berylite" has to take earth as a domain. From http://lore.layonara.com/Deity%20Domains "2. Clerics of this deity almost always choose this domain. Clerics not selecting this domain should provide a good RP reason." For Beryl that domain is earth, it can be viewed as the majority of the staff sees Galathea as any other Berylite cleric and since they have earth then they support the claim that Galathea has moved to RP a cleric with the earth domain? |
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It is my understanding that deities domains are picked because they fit the deity and gives guidance to players on how to RP the different deities on Layonara, since Beryl has healing then wouldn't an all together move from healing be moving against the wishes of her? Deities have more domains than a cleric can pick but why should picking one over the other mean a complete cut from another domain that falls under the deity? Regards Akata |
Even with the Earth domain, we wouldn't expect Galathea to never heal or to never act as a healer. However, having the Healing domain implies a certain focus in that area, which is reinforced by the hospital initiative.
Now keep in mind, we never said "no". We instead said, "not yet" and offered a path to turn that into a "yes." It is a common thing in the Character Approval process that when support is lacking, one or more CDQs is required.
Domain change, in an IC sense, is major. It is perhaps no coincidence that in an OOC sense it is also major, requiring (for best accuracy and results) a full rebuild of the character, starting from the Character Creation page. This process is somewhat labor-intensive for both the player and the GM who has to make it happen, including a manual restoration of tradeskill XP, which is especially important in this case, as it supports Galathea's RP as a Berylite priestess. Since I happen to be that GM, I fully support the level of caution and scrutiny given to these sorts of changes. Full rebuilds are very rare, and rightly so.
That said, when the time comes that Galathea (or anyone else) meets the conditions for a domain change, I will fully support it and do everything I can to help the player through the change and address any lingering issues that may arise.
I hope this helps clarify things for you, xiaobeibi and anyone else who is wondering. If not, there's plenty of space below this post.
Post by: akata on August 31, 2010, 05:43:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dorganath Understanding that you are asking questions and trying to help out a friend and/or fellow player, I'll try to offer some clarity. |
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xiaobeibi's request was the very first comment that I have seen related to the shift in healkits and potions made a full year prior to this request. Clearly, it caught my attention because I certainly do not want to marginalize a class for the sake of convenience. When orth (who plays a cleric) and I were putting 3.2 together, the attempt was to strike a balance between a few different factors. Shrinking player base and other factors, combined with a large collection of very challenging high-level areas and a complaint that it's sometimes hard to find enough characters of the right type to go somewhere fun and stand a chance of surviving...these were all things taken into consideration. Now, I'm not invalidating xiaobeibi's observations and opinions at all, but at the same time, what feedback has reached me does not agree with the assessment that the 3.2 update has somehow made the cleric class less valuable. |
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This is really incorrect. Of the active GMs, very few are involved with the MMO in any capacity, and for the record, I (sadly) do not count myself among the "active" set. The opinions of most of the GM team were considered in discussions of this request, and sadly, besides Dezza, there was one other GM who could have offered us a more solid picture of Galathea's RP but never responded. Regardless, those who did not know the details of Galathea's RP didn't so much say "No, because I don't I don't know anything about her," but rather more along the lines of, "I don't know anything about her, so it's difficult to answer." I mention this simply for perspective, because the GM team is not the Council of No when we do not know enough about a character. If anything, it prompts a larger discussion, a collection of what information we do have and a concerted effort to come to a reasonable and supportable decision. |
Even if you only pick the GM: s listed as Active Quest GM: s and compare that with the calendar for the last couple of years then it is obvious that a majority of listed active GM: s don't regularly run quests. Add time zones and I'm having trouble understanding what vast majority we seem to be talking about?
I have great respect for anyone that decides to join the team and use his/her free time to entertain others. I'm not looking to get anyone removed or set as inactive, I'll rather take a GM that runs a quest every 6th month than no GM.
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Second, and I cannot stress this enough, absolutely no one's opinion on the GM team, informed or otherwise, was discarded in the discussion of Galathea's request. If anything, Dezza's comments were more instrumental in understanding Galathea's progress than anything else that was said. |
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I hope your opinion of the team and its ability to reach a fair decision based on what we can see and verify in an objective way is not truly as low as it sounds in that statement. |
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Well, a couple things here. You're proposing a change in policy, and further, you're proposing we do so in the middle of an active request and one that would likely result in an approval of the character. That's fine, and I respect that. The problem is that we don't normally change policies in the midst of such requests, and on those rare occasions we have, it has been for a very good reason, such as an oversight on our part, and it has been done so in a way that is still (hopefully) seen as fair and reasonable to everyone in the community. |
In the same way as CDT:s are used to support and show that the player have understood the alignment/deity/language/domain change/request, then give players whom spent their time RP:ing it out in game the chance to gather the same evidence in the form of players. After all if they have managed to convince other players and those players in return can post examples for the GM team to read, then doesn't that show precisely the same verifiable information as a CDT?
That page and in particular that footnote were added in about 6 months after Galathea started as a character, so per our usual methods, we would not hold an existing character responsible for a mechanical choice made prior to such revisions. Second, it cannot be said that because of the footnote you quoted, the majority of the staff see Galathea as any sort of Berylite cleric, whether "any other" or something exceptional. Galathea did not choose the Earth domain, so the team does not see her as having the Earth domain nor does it see her as having RPed a cleric with the Earth domain just because of a general footnote in LORE. What that does imply, however is that if Galathea were to be submitted today, she would have had to give a good RP reason to take the Healing domain.
As I said some of the information/reasons given are contradicting and confusing I'll try to break it down for clarification.
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Her actions, her miraculous efforts still fall pretty squarely in the 'general Berylite' effort line for us. |
Adding to the confusion, it is also stated that:
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To address some raised points about her other efforts, even with her actions on certain quests where she has used her divine gifts from Beryl to perform miracles and her CDQ with Dezza, the vast majority of us still feel she is more the healer now then she was the first 20 levels of her life. |
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Based on what is currently going on for her we feel she has only begun to grasp the earth domain that Beryl gives some of Her followers access to and that she lingers still pretty solidly in the healing domain. |
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Any devout Berylite, regardless of domain, would be allowed to attempt such miracles. We feel she is not ready to progress forward with a shift of domains. |
I'm sorry but I am confused and I find the statements offered to be contradicting when I compare them with information available on Lore, information that was available when said statements were posted.
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If I understand you right (and please say if I'm not, because I had to read this about three times before I had a glimmer of understanding), I think you misunderstand. It is not that Galathea must move completely away from being a healer in any capacity in order to embrace the Earth domain. Besides the lack of the CDT, the other problem or source of confusion is what we can see, and that is Galathea not becoming less focused on healing but rather more by virtue of establishing a hospital. That was the sticking point, and it because of this that we have a hard time seeing the IC assertion of moving away from healing.Even with the Earth domain, we wouldn't expect Galathea to never heal or to never act as a healer. However, having the Healing domain implies a certain focus in that area, which is reinforced by the hospital initiative. |
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In accompaniment to the above we are requiring two CDQs for domain change. The contents of those CDQs will be largely between yourself and your selected GM, but it should deal with the wholeness of moving away from healing all together and stepping into the earthen domain |
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Now keep in mind, we never said "no". We instead said, "not yet" and offered a path to turn that into a "yes." It is a common thing in the Character Approval process that when support is lacking, one or more CDQs is required. Domain change, in an IC sense, is major. It is perhaps no coincidence that in an OOC sense it is also major, requiring (for best accuracy and results) a full rebuild of the character, starting from the Character Creation page. This process is somewhat labor-intensive for both the player and the GM who has to make it happen, including a manual restoration of tradeskill XP, which is especially important in this case, as it supports Galathea's RP as a Berylite priestess. Since I happen to be that GM, I fully support the level of caution and scrutiny given to these sorts of changes. Full rebuilds are very rare, and rightly so. |
Firstly, I hope this clarifies that my opinion of the team isn't low, and that I'm only posting because this particular request and the handling of it in my opinion falls under the high standard that has been set over the years.
Secondly, that it opens the teams eyes to that with a shrinking active GM base, players who don't write a CDT will have their requests denied because it will be harder to get support from GM: s and that my suggestion to take player testimonies into account on all requests will be considered, after all if the feedback is coming from the player in question or from others then it will aid the team in coming to the correct conclusion.
Post by: Dorganath on August 31, 2010, 07:25:55 PM
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Originally Posted by akata I understand the reasons behind changing the potions and heal kits and I also fully support them. I am not even claiming that cleric as a class is less valuable, they benefit just as much from the update as everyone else. But when part of the reason to the change was to enable players to survive without a certain type of characters (I am assuming here that the meaning of type is healers) then I cannot understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that is doesn't affect characters built for healing prior to the change. When healing was made more potent it reduced the difference between having a healer along and by that made healing less unique. Since as mentioned OOC and mechanics changes have long been grounds for character adjustments, and when the changes are as drastic as in the case of healing potions and heal kits, then does it matter if it is one player or twenty that seek an adjustment. Any character made prior to the change and aimed at healing had no way of knowing it would change, even in this case where the change is an improvement to everyone then shouldn't characters built for precisely the purpose the change affect be granted the same right as others? |
I will state again for clarity: Up until Galathea's request, this development team has heard absolutely nothing along the lines of the updated potions and kits being damaging or invalidating to the healer role. Not a word.
From my personal perspective, I would have much rather spent the hours consumed, between the discussion of Galathea's request and responses to you in this thread, tweaking the balance of these things 6 or more months ago had I been made aware that there was, in fact, a problem. For that matter, it would have been good to hear from xiaobeibi about a year ago when he decided to take a break because he felt that the changes had harmed his character. These are things that could have happened and possibly resulted in a vastly different situation today, but they didn't.
Even once this issue came up, I have heard from friends and others who play with Galathea who have given statements privately in support of her movement toward the Earth domain but no one has supported the assertion related to the healkits and potions.
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To clarify "In Galathea's request, so much of her development has gone on unrecorded and to the vast majority of the staff she has not moved far from the roll of healer" with the phase vast majority of the staff I take it as being the 23 names on the GMRoster Even if you only pick the GM: s listed as Active Quest GM: s and compare that with the calendar for the last couple of years then it is obvious that a majority of listed active GM: s don't regularly run quests. Add time zones and I'm having trouble understanding what vast majority we seem to be talking about? |
This is not a negative against anyone, but a simple statement of fact. Galathea is not the first character whose availability, level of involvement and times of play have mostly evaded the times of heavier GM coverage. Some have been WL candidates, and in some of those cases, we have deferred an approval so that we could see more from the player and the character. How is this all that much different? What is special about Galathea's case?
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Still the picture I'm getting is that very few GM: s actually had enough information to even offer an opinion, and that the information that could be verified is outdated. |
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The main reason for my post is in fact that in this case the decision does not seem to live up to the high standard I have come to expect from the team. |
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I wouldn't go as far as calling it a change in policy, currently player testimonies are used in language/ear submissions, change of deity for non-clerics and support for SS returns under the GP system. I'm not aiming for a "If xx number of players supports the claim then you can get xx approved" But rather to give players who don't write CDT:s an opportunity to gather support by players who have witnessed the RP in question. In the same way as CDT:s are used to support and show that the player have understood the alignment/deity/language/domain change/request, then give players whom spent their time RP:ing it out in game the chance to gather the same evidence in the form of players. After all if they have managed to convince other players and those players in return can post examples for the GM team to read, then doesn't that show precisely the same verifiable information as a CDT? |
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Galathea is being compared to a "general Berylite" or rather her actions are. In order to get an idea to what that meant I looked up Beryl on Lore, since the issue in this case is Domain I looked under NWN/D&D Alignments, Domains, and notes, under notes it sais "most clerics prefere to chose Earth, to be closer to Her Perfection and then one of the other three. That page and the text like the page and the footnote under Deity domains was added after Galathea was submitted, I don't expect every single GM to know all Lore by heart, but I do expect that when a character is being compared to something "general" be it rogue, toranite, cook, healer or berylite, that they read up on what Lore there is on them. |
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Therefore when Galathea's actions are being compared to a general berylite's it implies to me that her RP and actions are reflecting that of a cleric with Earth domain. |
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And the picture I'm getting from the submission and the answers in this post, is that it is not supported by the team due to lack of evidence in the form of a CDT. |
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Firstly, I hope this clarifies that my opinion of the team isn't low, and that I'm only posting because this particular request and the handling of it in my opinion falls under the high standard that has been set over the years. Secondly, that it opens the teams eyes to that with a shrinking active GM base, players who don't write a CDT will have their requests denied because it will be harder to get support from GM: s and that my suggestion to take player testimonies into account on all requests will be considered, after all if the feedback is coming from the player in question or from others then it will aid the team in coming to the correct conclusion. |
And I just want to repeat that a domain change is a major character change, in both the IC and OOC senses, and such decisions will by virtue of this receive greater scrutiny. It is because we keep high standards that we have spent so much time discussing it. We did not lower our standards just to pass this through on the benefit of the doubt.
Again, this was nothing personal. The team as a whole wants to see more development. That's all. This is no different than many other CA requests and some of the decisions we've made on WL applications where the GM team didn't have enough information to decide.
Post by: Unknown User on August 31, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
First of all, the GM testimony standard is the current policy for rebuilds. It never occurred to me personally to seek out player testimony - I'm not sure how helpful it would really be in general, given that a player can just as easily narrate their interactions with other players. Something to think about for the future, however.
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[A rebuild] is only granted for an extensive reason, such as a CDQ or quest that results in the deity change of a cleric or something of that magnitude. The only mechanical exception is when the development team makes mechanical changes to classes that require such action. They are extremely rare and require the support of at least one GM in the capacity of a GM not as a player witness. The backing of the GM in question does not guarantee approval. |
To be blunt, I think we dealt with the request rather generously, as am not aware of any other time the CA team has offered a CDQ with the express goal of establishing grounds for a rebuild. There was quite a bit of discussion on this one, and in the end my personal position was shifted from a "no" to a "not yet" on the basis of Dezza's testimony.
I hope this helps you a little bit to understand why we reached the decision we did, from my perspective.
Post by: Dorganath on August 31, 2010, 07:55:00 PM
I'm not expecting you, xiaobeibi or anyone who believes we made the wrong decision or at least an uninformed one, to believe any differently or to significantly change your minds. By the same token, the GM team has reached the decision posted by Rowana as a group and after plenty of discussion and weighing what objective information was available.
If there are specific questions you want me to address, I will try and shed greater light on them. Otherwise, I'm really not sure how much more I can say on the matter.
I strongly advise xiaobeibi to begin working with a GM to help him work toward the transition with Galathea that he wishes, so that there are no mixed signals or confusing statements moving forward.
Post by: Xiaobeibi on September 01, 2010, 01:51:48 PM
I am of course very disappointed with the decision reached, and to be blunt I do not feel the character approvers dealt with this in a generous manner. So, bearing that in mind, what follows below is my personal impression of the process and it is not directed at any one individual.
Working with a GM
"I strongly advise xiaobeibi to begin working with a GM to help him work toward the transition with Galathea that he wishes, so that there are no mixed signals or confusing statements moving forward."This is good advice and luckily I am already doing so with Dezza and have been doing continuously ever since her first CDQ.
Concerning the Heal Kits and Heal domain
I have always held you in great respect you Dorganath and therefore I am surprised to see you repeat an all too common misunderstanding:
"Now, I'm not invalidating xiaobeibi's observations and opinions at all, but at the same time, what feedback has reached me does not agree with the assessment that the 3.2 update has somehow made the cleric class less valuable [My emphasis]."I have not made the claim for the whole cleric class! This I have already explained in my post to Rowana and therefore it is disappointing to see it being brought up again:
"Thirdly, you are absolutely right. I do wish to downplay the frustrations I felt when the kits were introduced. I do not find these frustrations very positive, nor do I find dwelling upon them constructive. Part of the reason for taking my break was to find a way of not focusing on the frustrations, and instead find a positive and natural way of progressing beyond them. Furthermore, even if the change had not take place I would still have made the move towards Earth because it reflects her changing nature as she moves from a young girl to a mature and confident old woman. Personally, given the unique effect they had on her and her unique composition I would find this ground in itself for a change in domains [My emphasis], but I do hope it will not be the case. I would much rather have the change approved on positive in-character grounds than a negative impact of an OOC change."Before the changes Galathea was unique in the sense she could keep a party standing on their feet and fighting when no one else could. Afterwards this was no longer the case. She was no longer unique and that took away much of the joy of playing her.
For this reason (and others) I took a break to get a bit of perspective. When I came back after the break I decided to choose a positive solution to the frustrations the new heal kits had caused, and since I made that decision I have actively tried to downplay the role they played. Hence, I talked and worked with Dezza on a way forward and went from there. I still believe this to be a far more satisfying solution for all parties.
Concerning the process
What caused severe frustration in this request was not been the long decision time - I can appreciate all the good (and not so good) reasons for it to take time -, it was:
- The lack of communication. After two weeks waiting I asked if more info was needed from me and was informed "no". For the next month I heard nothing. Not a word. Communication is especially important when there is a delay and double so when there is a difficult decision to make or complicated arguments. In this case there wasn't any substantial information for a month and a half.
- The lack of involvement. Had I been involved or just informed of the issues you were discussing perhaps I could have been able to explain better or present my point of view early in the process and before people made up their minds. Perhaps not, but the experience would certainly have been much less frustrating.
As both Dezza and I have explained the decision to continue with the hospital (and how it was made), it has been a saddening experience to see emphasis placed upon it in the decision making process. I cannot help but help feel that what was meant as a positive player contribution has come back to haunt her. Now I am being told I have to step away from it.
I am not sure what to say apart from it being thoroughly disheartening...
The double CDQ request
The request has already -- for good and not so good reasons, as is life -- been a very long time underway. Two CDQs, the waiting period and the inevitable delays this will involve feels to me as adding insult to injury.
Furthermore, Rowana states: "I want to state that this was (clearly) not an easy decision to come to. No one wants to be a wet towel on someone else's fun".
Were the team to demonstrate a touch of grace and change this to a one CDQ requirement (bearing the before mentioned in mind) then I honestly believe it would reflect well on them.
Conclusion
I can appreciate that it was a difficult decision, I can appreciate the team not considering this a denial, but with all due respect, I also believe the team could use this case a learning experience in the importance of communication and involvement.
I hope this has explained my perspective and I hope this will be the end of it.
What happens next is something I will have to discuss with Dezza.
Sincerely
XB
Post by: akata on September 01, 2010, 05:33:51 PM
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If there had been a change to the healing domain itself, I would have supported the change. But that was not the case - another aspect of the game was changed which gave other players the ability to have similar effect. To me these are very very different cases - you obviously disagree, and are of course entitled to that opinion. |
Now allow me to use a little common sense, below is a list of the old target potions and the new
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Healing potion Old (target) New (average healing) Increase in %
Cure light 7 10 43
Cure moderate 15 36 140
Cure serious 24 78 225
Cure critical 35 136 288
Heal 110 210 90
LORE: clerical domains
Average healing from spell cast by character with Healing domain:
(Note that I have added the max amount of + to each spell +5 to light +10 to moderate and so on)
Cure light 14.25
Cure moderate 28.5 out healed by potion
Cure serious 42,75 out healed by potion
Cure critical 57 out healed by potion
Heal out healed by potion till cleric lvl 18, out healed by potion till lvl 11 prior to change.
Looking at these numbers I cannot understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that the update didn't decrease the value of the healing domain, but yes black on white it didn't change the cleric domain only something that gives everyone else the ability to do the same better.
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Galathea is not the first character whose availability, level of involvement and times of play have mostly evaded the times of heavier GM coverage. Some have been WL candidates, and in some of those cases, we have deferred an approval so that we could see more from the player and the character. How is this all that much different? What is special about Galathea's case? |
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I just want to add, I appreciate you coming here in support of your friend and fellow player. |
In this case (to me) the information and explanation that have been offered by the team has been confusing and contradicting and it has not lived up to the usual high standard offered. If it had then I would never have pointed it out. If anyone should wish a clarification to which part I mean I'll post them otherwise I'll let it rest.
I don't think I can make my reasons to posting and my opinion any clearer, but as said before, if anyone wish clarification on any of the points I've made I'll do my best to oblige.
Post by: Dorganath on September 01, 2010, 07:34:10 PM
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Originally Posted by akata Looking at these numbers I cannot understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that the update didn't decrease the value of the healing domain, but yes black on white it didn't change the cleric domain only something that gives everyone else the ability to do the same better. |
The fact remains that no one who plays a cleric except for xiaobeibi has come to me or anyone else to my knowledge involved with the GM or development teams and expressed a concern or a problem since these changes were made, and that was over a year since they were put into place. I was never concluding that they don't change the way people seek healing, but at the same time, I am not seeing evidence that they have caused a widespread problem among the cleric class.
xiaobeibi's clarification on this point is worthy of noting and thought, that being it was not so much a claim of harming the class but rather affecting the RP of Galathea specifically. Unfortunately, for our purposes, it makes the effect of potions and kits a bit more subjective.
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Nothing, but like you then I need to be made aware of that there is a problem before I can take any action. |
To my knowledge, while people have disagreed with out deferment of approval, be it a character change or a WLDQ application, such a response as you are bringing has never been brought forth. That's why I was asking what makes this so special.
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I'm going to pull the thread over for a few minutes and toss something your direction, and I would like your honest, objective opinion (and anyone else can chime in too), because among all the various things you have said, it seems you believe we have not been fair or objective in this, and that we are making arbitrary decisions, apparently because, as a group, we do not share your personal opinion. Again, this is fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with us nor do I ever claim that the GM team is infallible.
As a GM team, we have, as long as I can remember, even back to when I was a new player here myself, striven to be fair, above-board and free of the "politics of power" that we heard so much about from other worlds. As far as I can remember, I've personally heard stories about GMs in other NWN worlds, who would regularly hand out favors to their friends and persecute those they didn't like. In these other places, GM favoritism wasn't just a suspicion...it was a fact of life. Get in good with a GM, or even better, become a GM, and you could get anything you want.
We've had players come here with a chip on their shoulder and almost from Day One just assuming that was the standard order of things here, but it's not.
Yet on a regular basis, we get accused of this very thing, in one form or the other. Is that fair? Probably not, but you know, we at least try to assure that sort of thing doesn't happen and we have dealt with people who we find out are cheating in this way.
Time was, and perhaps you even remember this, when our way of doing things, from Character Approvals to Grievances to pretty much any sort of administrative decision, were handled so much more in a subjective way. "OK, that sounds good. Approved!" or "I'm not seeing the alignment change yet, but come back in two weeks, keep up the RP and then I'll probably approve you." or "Oh sure, I believe you. Soul Strand approved for return."
Such decisions were the domain of one person, whose opinion was key and/or decisive. It was somewhat consistent in as much as something opinion-based can be.
In a lot of ways, they were simpler days, and sometimes, I kind of wish we could go back to that. But I'll give you the reason why it would be difficult to do so and why it really wouldn't solve anything.
We have gotten cases where Player A does X and Player B does Y. X is similar to Y but not quite the same, and Player A is approved while Player B is not. Player B now gets hurt feelings and upset because they wonder why A was approved and B wasn't.
It didn't matter that Player A had better support or justification. It didn't matter that the situations weren't as close as some thought. It didn't matter that Player B was embellishing details and in some cases fabricating them. No, all Player B and his/her friends saw is that Player A was getting something that Player B didn't. The friends of Player B would rally around, criticize us for not being fair and for not sharing their opinion...and of course, of playing favorites.
So how do we respond? We start moving out of the realm of subjectivity and into the realm of objectivity. We write policies that define what is needed for approval, what the options are and what the requirements for X, Y and Z are. By doing so, we take subjectivity out of the equation, or at least, we diminish its impact.
The process becomes fair, egalitarian and somewhat sterile. In order to cover the various situations that have arisen and may arise, we try to be as encompassing as possible in the policies. These are seen as "more rules" and eventually "too many rules", but they're at least applied equally to everyone, or as close as we can manage. There are always exceptions, and when there are exceptions, we, as a group rather than on the whim of an individual, discuss and decide the fairest and must justified decision we can.
The down-side of course is that what's fair is not always seen as "fair." People feel slighted because they ended up on the wrong side of a sterile policy. We've had that comment made more than once, but you know what we don't have much of anymore? The questions about why A was approved and B wasn't, and when we do, we can back it up by pointing to the policy and explaining the difference.
Is that the easy way out? Not really. This whole process should be proof of that.
So...speaking generally...what would you do?
It's OK to not answer that. It's not an easy question.
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Reading it over it showed me a flaw in the current policy where GM testimony is needed, because with a shrinking GM base more and more people will fall into the category of players whom cannot get support for any of the requests because no GM is around during their playing hours. |
The other thing is this: This was not a case where GM testimony was the only option. Had there been strong GM testimony, we would not be having this conversation. Had there been a reasonable CDT, we would not be having this conversation. As it was, there was little of the former and none of the latter. As a result, the discussion and conclusion have been, in my opinion, in line with other such cases where the required support just wasn't present.
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In this case (to me) the information and explanation that have been offered by the team has been confusing and contradicting and it has not lived up to the usual high standard offered. If it had then I would never have pointed it out. If anyone should wish a clarification to which part I mean I'll post them otherwise I'll let it rest. |
I cannot help that you feel we have let you down, let xiaobeibi down or let the community down. Maybe we have...I don't know. For everyone commenting here that we've done wrong, I'm certain there are just as many people who aren't going to bother to post who are nodding their heads saying, "Yeah, OK...that makes sense."
Anyway, this is starting to feel talked out.
To address something xiaobeibi said, I have no doubt that there was some breakdown in communication in this whole matter. More than likely, there were several, whether Player to GM or GM to Player or some other mix of things. It's unfortunate, if true, but we really can't go back and erase the past. I really hope he decides to press forward with this change and move forward rather than worry overly about what was meant when, what was misunderstood and so forth. I hope all parties can work to make sure that this goal is reached and with a minimum of further issues.
Post by: Alatriel on September 01, 2010, 08:14:23 PM
I know that some people are probably going to assume that my views here falls in the line of GM butt-kissing or toting the party line for one reason or another, but then, those that really know me would realize... I'm not exactly like that.
I think that the player base as a whole when dealing with "no" takes on the attitude of a six year old spoiled child that was just told they could not eat candy for breakfast. Rather than accepting the answer of "No, you can't have candy for breakfast, but you can have some after you've eaten a good lunch today," like a responsible adult that most of us claim to be, the attitude instead turns to whining, blame throwing, and tantrums all the way to "well, if I can't have what I want, I'll just take my toys and play somewhere else."
Yes, we may be a family server, and we may have children who play on this server. That's a good thing. But it doesn't mean that the adults should be acting like children. I'd prefer the adults be teaching the children good examples.
People seem to assume that if they put something on the character submission boards the answer will never be "No." And in fact, the answer is very rarely "No." Most of the time it's either a "Yes" or a "Not yet, but soon if you do x, y, and/or z." I don't think this has anything to do with penalizing people for GM time, or lack thereof, and I certainly don't think it's penalizing people for not wanting to post on a cdt. Not everyone is creative in that way, it just is what it is. However, as a player, we all know that IF we document things in a cdt even if it is "My character went to the Krandor today and fought gads of undead in his training to become an undead slayer" and do that several times, tell who you went with, etc. It's not creative writing, it's simply notating things so that the GMs can say "hey... it says this person went with such and such people, we can track this. This is good." Also, I have a strong feeling that if someone is under a "not yet" clause, there are probably GM's that will make an effort to watch that player when he or she is on playing that character and see if the roleplay supports what they want.
Contrary to what it seems people are playing this game as lately, it's really not supposed to be a video game. It's a roleplaying game. That means you play a role. It doesn't mean you push buttons. Sure... you do that, but that's only the means, it's not supposed to be the ends.
People seem to be insulted when offered the opportunity or request to develop their characters. What is so bad about asking you to develop your character?? You want to change something, then why is it so bad or insulting to be told you need to take a character development quest to develop your character? That's the whole point! It's not like you have to pay money for it or sacrifice your highest level spells or anything ridiculous. It's supposed to be fun, interesting, and get you to where it is you want to go.
This game is not a game you're supposed to play to win. Sometimes it's actually more fun to lose than it is to win. That's life. Get over it. I'm so tired of hearing the expression "they're spoiling my fun." It's used to excuse people from not playing their alignments, not playing their deity relations, not playing their race, their abilities, etc. It keeps people from chasing out dark elves from Hlint, Leringard, Port Hempstead, etc. It keeps people from saying "No, I'm sorry, I'm a Rofireinite, I refuse to party with a bringer of chaos and destruction such as that Mistite over there." Why? Because instead of playing your character, you're afraid that you'll "ruin someone's fun." You accepted those guidelines supposedly when you built your character. If you don't like where it is now, that's fine. Do something in character that moves it away from there. If the CA team and the GM team simply don't see it, then maybe you need to up the rp a bit. It's not a mystery what gets things approved. It's very clear. If you don't like the rules, think about why it is that you don't like them. Is it truly because the rules aren't fair or is it because you just got mad because you didn't get your way?
Being told no is not the end of the world. Yeah, it's frustrating. Think outside the box. Think of a way to get what you want within the guidelines that are set to be fair for everyone, not just what gets you your way. Because if I had my way I think I'd prefer that the CA's and GM's told a lot more people no on a regular basis.
Post by: Hellblazer on September 01, 2010, 08:18:07 PM
I've personally gone through a 2 cdq process to bring Lex out of Aeridin and into Toran. Now I understand the reason why that needed two cdq's One was to succeed in being let go from the former deity, and the second was to prove lex worthy of being bestowed Toran's power. That not only meant a total shift in belief, but of attitude and general way of though of the character, although in Lex'or life, that had started a while before he made the actual motion to go against Aeridin directly.
But in this case, Galathea is -not- leaving Beryl. She's not rebuking him. She's not doing something that is against the dogma. In fact she is doing something to get even closer to her Deity. So I am wondering why 2 cdq's in this matter. As said by you, no expect her to completely move away from healing. So in that sentence I understand that what ever domain she will have, she will always remain a healer Aka a cleric. Her work for the hospital is a mark that the character wants to leave once she is called back to Beryl. That's how I see it. So basically it's only one motion really. Getting closer to Beryl taking on the domain that describes Beryl the most.
Now the RP and action on quest that I have seen her do obviously have shown me that this was her intent. Albeit that since Sil is with Galathea that could make it seem like I'm biased.
But still my question remains, if the Character isn't moving away, but in fact is trying to move closer to her Deity, why does it take 2 CDQ's.
My second question is, how many actual Clerics have been plaid consistently during this last year, that were approved before the change. Those with the actual healing domain that the healing potions might have brought the chosen domain uniqueness down? Here I'm not asking how many clerics were approved, but then never plaid or plaid for a month or two. But Clerics with the Healing domain that are still playing today since those changes
Also for the comment posted before mine. With all my respect to you. I think you are missing the point of the RP that was done by Galathea and the development he went through his char over the past year that unfortunately passed under the radar of a vast majority of the GM. Which brought it to this situation. Should Xiao had done a cdj, it would have greatly helped. Even him doesn't deny it, but at the same time, we are told consistently that this is a world where our actions have consequences. And right now, Xiao is not seeing the consequences relative to his actions. Yes he's being offered a way to attempt reaching his goal, but that a 4 month to a year time from now. When you have put so many hours (see years) in what you do, talked with gms to make sure things were going right, to get some feedback. To see it go the way it went, due to a lack of visibility to the eyes of the other gms, I'm sure even you would not be very pleased and would find it very disheartening. So saying that the community acts like spoiled six years old is being quite insulting toward the community. And personally toward Xiao at the same time.
Post by: Dorganath on September 01, 2010, 08:40:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hellblazer But in this case, Galathea is -not- leaving Beryl. She's not rebuking him. |
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Also for the comment posted before mine. With all my respect to you. I think you are missing the point of the RP that was done by Galathea and the development he went through his char over the past year that unfortunately passed under the radar of a vast majority of the GM. Which brought it to this situation. Should Xiao had done a cdj, it would have greatly helped. Even him doesn't deny it, but at the same time, we are told consistently that this is a world where our actions have consequences. And right now, Xiao is not seeing the consequences relative to his actions. |
To be clear, the team is not saying this RP didn't happen. We just have, as a group, no frame of reference. It's nothing more than that.
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Yes he's being offered a way to attempt reaching his goal, but that a 4 month to a year time from now. When you have put so many hours (see years) in what you do, talked with gms to make sure things were going right, to get some feedback. |
Post by: Hellblazer on September 01, 2010, 08:50:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dorganath Beryl is a female. |
Ha! always read it as male for some reasons lol.
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Originally Posted by Dorganath The world, unfortunately, is not autonomous. In order for changes to be affected, those actions must be seen. It's as simple as that. I would love for the ability to have things that happen in-game to actually change the world in real-time, whether mechanical or RP sorts of things. It just doesn't work that way. To be clear, the team is not saying this RP didn't happen. We just have, as a group, no frame of reference. It's nothing more than that. |
Also just to make sure Dorg, the part of with all my respect to you, wasn't meant for you, but for the player who posted before me.
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Originally Posted by Dorganath Is there a reason why the first CDQ would have to wait 2 months from now? If the GM is available, couldn't the first CDQ happen soon? |
Well yes, there is. This is not a small cdq for a simple prc, it's a cdq that will have a heavy repercussion on a character. I would expect a pretty hefty write up time, not to include finding time with the gm to run it and having to wait if he already has a que. Then there is the two months period. Then more waiting time for the write up of the second part and again the waiting time to run it with the gm, who probably has other quest and cdq's line up.
As a personal note, and maybe I should have told you when we spoke a while back. The healing potions are exactly the reason why I haven't done an other cleric. What's the point when anyone with boots, belts, staff of healing (forgot the name) gloves, Aeridin cloak and what not, becomes pocket clerics, even if they are not clerics. Sure, foe.. people always need undeath eternal foe. But truly beside the healing spells, the protection against negative energy, undeath eternal foe, a cleric is nothing more than a wizard or a sorcerer, with the ability to wield a sword, a shield and wear heavy armors.
Post by: Dorganath on September 01, 2010, 09:10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Hellblazer Ha! always read it as male for some reasons lol. |
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I understand that the world doesn't change autmatically. But you are just confirming what I was saying. By a lack of visibility of Xiao's rp, there is no reference that the gm could go to, beside the testimony of the few that talked for her, and Dezza. |
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Well yes, there is. This is not a small cdq for a simple prc, it's a cdq that will have a heavy repercussion on a character. I would expect a pretty hefty write up time, not to include finding time with the gm to run it and having to wait if he already has a que. Then there is the two months period. Then more waiting time for the write up of the second part and again the waiting time to run it with the gm, who probably has other quest and cdq's line up. |
Anyway, we can argue timing all we want. It will likely be something between my idealistic "next week" and your pessimistic "a year from now".
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As a personal note, and maybe I should have told you when we spoke a while back. The healing potions are exactly the reason why I haven't done an other cleric. What's the point when anyone with boots, belts, staff of healing (forgot the name) gloves, Aeridin cloak and what not, becomes pocket clerics, even if they are not clerics. Sure, foe.. people always need undeath eternal foe. But truly beside the healing spells, the protection against negative energy, undeath eternal foe, a cleric is nothing more than a wizard or a sorcerer, with the ability to wield a sword, a shield and wear heavy armors. |
Post by: Hellblazer on September 01, 2010, 09:40:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dorganath I had the opposite problem with Deliar for the longest time. |
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Originally Posted by Dorganath Right, but that is different from this experience demonstrating that actions do not bring changes. The very fact that Galathea's hospital is going in as a new landmark in Krandor with the next update is some proof that it can and does happen. |
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Originally Posted by Dorganath Except that Dezza, the GM he's been working with most, apparently, has nothing firm in the queue and possibly only one in the works. The fact that he has been working with xiaobeibi already should help to short-cycle the process a bit. Anyway, we can argue timing all we want. It will likely be something between my idealistic "next week" and your pessimistic "a year from now". |
Dezza being one of the most active, if not the most active GM presently, running plot quests, running normal quest, and other cdq's, true that I didn't check if he had a line up or not. His schedule could become busy tomorrow for all we know. And it's not really a pessimistic, maybe more on the cautionary side of things. But none the less many things could happen since the time they are both ready and on the same page on when the second can be run.
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Originally Posted by Dorganath That would have been good to know, especially a year or so ago, and especially if there were others who shared your opinion and perspective. The only things I'll say counter to your comment is that a) a cleric is more than the sum of its healing potions, and b) a cleric has just as much value in the RP sense as the mechanical sense. The cleric character I have is a cleric for RP reasons, not to be the party healer. But as another post has pointed out, everyone has their own style and preference, so I'm not going to judge. |
On the other hand I can tell you that my other chars have very much appreciated that for the times that 0 clerics could be found throughout a week
But still it is the reason why I will not make an other cleric. Truth be told beside the few bandages here and there. If I'm with a cleric, I will most often leave the healing to the cleric so the player feels included. Most prominent when I play with Talia, but it's also something I do when an other cleric that shows an affinity to heal the party members is there.And yes I totally agree with you about the fact that the cleric is more than a sum of his spells. But lets face it, the reason a cleric is invited to join a group 90 % of the time, is not to preach about their deity for 3 hours long, or how they personally view the slaying of all giants when they are Aeridinite or place any less violent god in there. Although I'd really love to see that happen
So, there are really only so much a cleric can bring during the actual trips where it's mostly where the vast majority of the player base (my perception here) are truly looking for the spells I told you about. That is if the other chars don't have the amulets and other goodies already. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I've seen it done. But it's always in perspective of what type of group it is, and if the group as a whole is willing to leave the chance to the Cleric to RP the Cleric side of his char beside the healing and spelling. Giving you an example here that relates to Xiao personally. Many time we've spoken about how he was getting mad at times that players wouldn't let him RP his cleric properly. When the fight was over and he was kneelign down, placing a hand on the ground, to pray to Beryl to bring back the dead character. Poof someone took a scrool out and raised the char.
Maybe I'm being pessimistic here, maybe I'm not. I'm just saying that when you look at it, depending on how you wish to play and if or not you accepts invitation on a regular basis to play with friends, new or old, you may not get the chance to RP the perceptions and convictions of your cleric to their fullest, and what the Deity has to offer. In fact, I'm more comfortable to say that, unless you are traveling with a very small group, trying to convert a char in the middle of a trip is probably not the best place to do it. But that's me. That's more a one on one rp somewhere, where it can be truly gone through.
In any case I'm digressing for the matter at hand somewhat.
Post by: Dorganath on September 01, 2010, 10:37:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hellblazer Yes well, a lot of time had been put in this I didn't want to sound like the black sheep that didn't appreciate it, putting a damper on all the work that was done. So I zipped it, swallowed and accepted it. And I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, but truly in how I felt resigned to the idea that this had been worked thoroughly and that who was I to say to the team, hey mate neat idea but I think it should be reworked again because -I- feel that -I'm- going to lose some of the fun of playing my clerics or an other cleric bio I had in mind, for the reason I stated previously. |
In seriousness, there's nothing personal about my comments in this regard, but there's absolutely no reason why people can't make suggestions or even ask the question. "Is this possibly too much?" It sometimes takes a person to step outside the goals and drives of their own character(s) to look at the bigger picture.
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On the other hand I can tell you that my other chars have very much appreciated that for the times that 0 clerics could be found throughout a week But still it is the reason why I will not make an other cleric. Truth be told beside the few bandages here and there. If I'm with a cleric, I will most often leave the healing to the cleric so the player feels included. Most prominent when I play with Talia, but it's also something I do when an other cleric that shows an affinity to heal the party members is there. |
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And yes I totally agree with you about the fact that the cleric is more than a sum of his spells. But lets face it, the reason a cleric is invited to join a group 90 % of the time, is not to preach about their deity for 3 hours long, or how they personally view the slaying of all giants when they are Aeridinite or place any less violent god in there. Although I'd really love to see that happen So, there are really only so much a cleric can bring during the actual trips where it's mostly where the vast majority of the player base (my perception here) are truly looking for the spells I told you about. That is if the other chars don't have the amulets and other goodies already. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I've seen it done. But it's always in perspective of what type of group it is, and if the group as a whole is willing to leave the chance to the Cleric to RP the Cleric side of his char beside the healing and spelling. Giving you an example here that relates to Xiao personally. Many time we've spoken about how he was getting mad at times that players wouldn't let him RP his cleric properly. When the fight was over and he was kneelign down, placing a hand on the ground, to pray to Beryl to bring back the dead character. Poof someone took a scrool out and raised the char. Maybe I'm being pessimistic here, maybe I'm not. I'm just saying that when you look at it, depending on how you wish to play and if or not you accepts invitation on a regular basis to play with friends, new or old, you may not get the chance to RP the perceptions and convictions of your cleric to their fullest, and what the Deity has to offer. In fact, I'm more comfortable to say that, unless you are traveling with a very small group, trying to convert a char in the middle of a trip is probably not the best place to do it. But that's me. That's more a one on one rp somewhere, where it can be truly gone through. In any case I'm digressing for the matter at hand somewhat. |
How much of what is "wrong" with the world sits squarely in the hands of the players? People are quick to criticize the GM team for this or that, and again...we're not perfect... but who is really to blame when something, added as a convenience or bonus to the community as a whole, is taken to the extreme to the point of abuse? Things like draining pawn shops within the first hour after reset, carrying around a dozen (or more) Healer's Hugs in your inventory, frequenting the same area or group of areas because it's (too) quick and (too) easy XP, or choosing a bash-a-thon over a GM-run quest because it "pays" better. There are rules in place today that are the direct result of player excess. There are areas and items that have been changed, "nerfed" or removed completely for the same reasons. There are policies in place that are more restrictive than they need to be because they are invariably abused, or more explicitly defined than they need to be because someone pushed the boundaries and then used "but you didn't say exactly that" as a defense.
Anyway...there's no need to answer any of those questions... just think about them. It's a two-way street, and for better or worse, this game world is still strongly shaped by the players, whether that is IC or OOC.
Post by: Hellblazer on September 01, 2010, 10:43:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dorganath It's all water under the bridge, as they say, but I will point out that you've rarely hesitated to offer up suggestions in the past. |
Post by: darkstorme on September 08, 2010, 06:51:18 PM