Post by: Dezza on September 21, 2010, 05:54:25 AM
Rogues struggle at the best of times at higher levels and with the creatures on layonara once you hit a certain level and go to many areas most magic using creatures that spawn seem to have True Sight as a stock standard spawn spell.
True Sight, due to nwn mechanics is almost 100% undefeatable in a sense that for a rogue character or character with HIPS it can see them around corners as well and once a target locks onto the character you have no chance to avoid them. (Yes I know creatures need to have line of sight for them to lock on, but its amazing how many times they lock on without that line of sight)
Ideally True Sight would not allow creatures to see through walls or around corners. Thus a rogue could actually make use of their sneaking and hiding abilities regardless of a person using True Sight and if they approached them from behind true sight would still not allow them to be seen in this sense.
I know we cannot alter the spell due to nvn mechanics but can we please entertain the thought of finding a way to give Rogues or characters with a hide chance the opportunity to use that ability vs true sight?
Ie can a DC check be built into the True Sight so that it checks vs the hide of the creature to see if it can overcome it?
Or alternatively can we make a version of True Sight that is specific to Layonara and have that used instead? One that can operate more realistically? So that when the creature does not have line of sight they lose track of the rogue with a successful hide check or something?
I know Im asking a lot, but the amount of times Ive heard the laments of players with high level rogues, and now I'm one of them, maybe its time we could do something about it?
Post by: Unknown User on September 21, 2010, 06:06:09 AM
Alright there is one way to walk around them, namely sanctuary, but that is buggy at best and you will die rather horribly if it fails you.
So the problem is sort of a trade off between ensuring that no abuse of sneakiness/invis takes place, and making rogues able to employ sneaky tactics without a DM watching.
Post by: Unknown User on September 21, 2010, 06:06:45 AM
As for the topic at hand, if the spell can in fact be changed, perhaps it would be better if a sizable bonus to Spot and Search checks was given instead of automatically enabling the caster to see hidden creatures? It could still spot hidden people and give the caster immunity to the Weird spell. We just simply removed the "I WIN" option that a caster gains from the spell. As for the bonus gained, perhaps it could 1/caster level? I'm not sure, I leave the details to you guys since its a matter of balance. Just my two cents.
Edit: How about letting it keep the ability to instantly spot invisible creatures to avoid having mages that can simply slither around via an invisibility spell.
Post by: Unknown User on September 21, 2010, 06:19:50 AM
I readily agree True sight is overpowered, but changing it would have dire ramifications for any battle involving creatures with Hide in Plain Sight. You'd have to remove Hips if you make such a change to True Sight.
I feel your pain on the line of sight thing. Once creatures lock on, they are stuck in autofollow even if they can't see you. Which is why corner sneaking isn't a good alternative to Hips in NWN combat.
My advice would be to use potions and/or scrolls of invisibility instead. The faster movement speed allows you to take that first hit with 50 % concealment, then run away and finally get the creature to stop following you as he should.
Post by: Unknown User on September 21, 2010, 06:41:52 AM
TS=See Invisibility and +50 on spot checks
that would mean a high lvl rogue/ranger would still be able to sneak around a spawn with TS and players with TS should (hopefully) be able to spot creatures that have HIPS
Post by: Dorganath on September 21, 2010, 10:05:41 AM
Probably top among them is that True Seeing is an effect coded into the NWN system, and we can't change the way that works. We can only change the way the spell works. In this case, the spell applies the "True Seeing" effect and also the glowing eyes effect for a given duration of time.
The line-of-sight thing is a tricky one and again something that is again pretty much in Bioware's lap. True Seeing, when active, opens up the range of things that can be detected by a creature to include hiding and invisible creatures. While these things may not necessarily be within the line-of-sight, they may be within range of hearing, which is when you get that transparent image of another creature on the other side of a barrier even though your character cannot actually "see" it or target it with anything that requires a line-of-sight, such as a bow or a spell.
(Side note: I know PCs use this partial detection all the time to get a feel for what foes await them ahead. It's only fair that the AI gets to use this too. *winks*)
This is significant because creatures with True Seeing on permanently are not using the spell but rather have the True Seeing effect permanently added to their creature skin. In some cases, True Seeing as a creature property is meant to represent extremely heightened senses, be it a "tremor-sense" for underground dwellers, who probably have very little eyesight in truth, or extremely sensitive hearing.
I actually agree that True Seeing vs. Rogues is really kind of bad, but on the flip side, so is the ability for a non-HiPS rogue to "hide" in the middle of a roadway in broad daylight (assuming no active combat). In PnP rules, True Seeing doesn't reveal anything that's hiding, and given my choice, that's how it would go. However, I know there are severe technical challenges to actually implementing something like hiding (i.e. using obstructions and things), which is probably why Bioware made the choice to have True Seeing work vs. Hiding/Stealth/HiPS. It's not perfect, but it's a reasonable technical design decision to make.
Unfortunately, as I said, we cannot change how the True Seeing effect works. We could only change the spell, and that would do nothing for the problem suggested above. We would also have to find and change every creature out of our 2000-ish to swap True Seeing for See Invisibility and a high boost to Spot and Listen. Even after doing that, the effect may be about the same in terms of detecting a sneaking rogue. Also, if any of the creatures we have placed are stock Bioware creatures with True Seeing as a creature property, we'd have to duplicate them, adding to our palette bloat.
Then again...there's some creatures at the very high end of things where it would make perfect sense to have the ability to see all, hidden or invisible.
As Filatus observed, any enemy creatures with True Seeing could potentially become even more dangerous, which might then require an adjustment on that end.
It might also be worthwhile at the same time to update Find Traps to give a bonus to Spot checks.
Anyway, it's a huge undertaking, potentially taking several iterations to get "right", and one that may give very little benefit, even to pure rogues.
That all said, if there is a system out there though (or someone wants to make one) that does, effectively replace True Seeing without a major overhaul, I'm willing to entertain it.
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on September 21, 2010, 10:35:32 AM
Quote:
It might also be worthwhile at the same time to update Find Traps to give a bonus to Spot checks. |
Legend Lore already provides a bonus to spot (yes, it's a much higher level spell), and seems appropriate as an aid for mages to detect rogues attempting to sneak up on them.
Post by: Dorganath on September 21, 2010, 10:48:50 AM
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on September 21, 2010, 11:00:59 AM
Find Traps unless we intend for it to replace TS. I think I'm missing something.
Post by: Dorganath on September 21, 2010, 11:29:24 AM
Mostly just brainstorming, milt. I did say "might". *winks*
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on September 21, 2010, 11:37:42 AM
Quote:
I did say "might". |
Post by: Dorganath on September 21, 2010, 11:47:05 AM
Anyway, yeah...just floating down the stream of consciousness. Don't mind me!
Post by: Acacea on September 21, 2010, 11:59:39 AM
Post by: Hellblazer on September 21, 2010, 01:00:51 PM
I don't think normal rogue should be able just sneak up to a foe like a hips shadow dancer could. Although I do feel for those rogues that get blasted from now\\ where as soon as they get close to a corner and puts a foot around it.
So it's my understanding that something is possible here, maybe just look at that wldq reward to see how to apply it to hide/move silently and hips. Maybe for normal rogue place it as a 2 feat. It would seem more expensive to use and show a certain training. For SD, just adjust the Hips so it's there automatically.
Post by: Pankoki on September 21, 2010, 01:11:17 PM
Post by: Dorganath on September 21, 2010, 01:26:43 PM
It wasn't a replacement for her "hide" or HiPS but a separate ability applied by a subrace skin.
Regardless, whether played or not, giving away a WLDQ reward to the masses is just not going to happen.
Post by: Hellblazer on September 21, 2010, 01:28:39 PM
Post by: Dezza on September 21, 2010, 07:26:02 PM
Example: My rogue/assasin, level 20 was stunned by colour spray from the Red Light Goblin Shaman just the other day.
My attack dmg when engaging directly is 15-25 on average, from stealth its 55-75. Thats a huge difference when you are detected immediately by True Sight and are trying to fight things that are supposedly in your 'range'.
I know this has always come down to the 'too hard' basket, but its a character killer that I've never really realised before until I've been in the situation and can experience the severe penalty it applies to a character build for stealth. In any pvp the first response of the opposing player is TS because no matter what a rogue does they can be seen. If that's the case then surely it's worth doing something about it?
Post by: Filatus on September 21, 2010, 07:57:00 PM
Just brainstorming at this point.
Post by: Pankoki on September 21, 2010, 08:16:44 PM
Right... I suppose no one wants to go down that road. Heh. Honestly, this is probably going to sound harsh, but spending development time to change a spell that affects pretty much every character on the server to differing manners so that what? 4 shadow dancers/assassins in the server can PvP fairly? It seems a waste of energy.
Preferably we should have something along the lines that Filatus mentioned (Though that particular idea might be a little too hard to do), but special abilities that grant flat footedness under special conditions or have an actual system that respects Initiative.
ALTERNATIVELY! You can follow the age old strategy for successful roguerizing:
Step 1: Find a tank
Step 2: Stab
Step 3: Profit
*shrugs* Some classes are not meant to solo.
Post by: Acacea on September 21, 2010, 08:20:30 PM
Maybe change up the otherwise pointless dirty fighting and give it to rogues or something, or have it as a rogue feat. We have some** lame rogue feats anyway, could always use something besides Improved Sneak XIII. It really is completely useless anyway... I don't know. Seems like it might be a more productive avenue for brainstorming, anyway.
*all is used incredibly loosely here
**In addition to some required awesome ones
Post by: Dorganath on September 21, 2010, 08:47:55 PM
Quote:
Example: My rogue/assasin, level 20 was stunned by colour spray from the Red Light Goblin Shaman just the other day. |
But seriously, I sympathize completely. My main character generally gets torn to pieces fighting things of his "range". In part it's because I made most of my build decisions for RP reasons, rather than what's going to help me have the strongest character.
The issue really isn't that it's "too hard" but that it's a massive undertaking that would require some pretty fundamental design changes. If NWN Layo was being designed today, this would be trivial. If we could change the way the True Seeing effect (not the spell) worked, then this would be trivial, or nearly so. If it were just as simple as editing the spell, then there would be some serious potential.
But we aren't, we can't and it isn't.
The fact is, it's a huge job. The problem is even less in how to "fix" True Seeing or with what we would substitute it (i.e. See Invis + Spot bonus) and is more the task of applying those changes to every thing Going through our over 2300 custom creatures and any skins and miscellaneous equipment they may have, and then go through over 1200 areas for any creatures that are placed to swap out any True Seeing properties with its replacement.
Quote:
In any pvp the first response of the opposing player is TS because no matter what a rogue does they can be seen. If that's the case then surely it's worth doing something about it? |
Or perhaps if they pull out TS, why not pull out Dispel in some form? Does your character have enough UMD to attempt that? I suppose it matters if you're going against a caster or not, but if you are, then why not toss out some ranged attacks and possibly disrupt the caster? Granted, I don't know your build, so I'm just guessing here.
On the flip side of the coin, if a rogue in a PvP situation can take full advantage of stealth (i.e. no True Seeing), then by your own admission, there can be huge amounts of damage dealt in a short amount of time, tipping the advantage firmly toward the rogue. In the Rogue vs. Caster scenario, your 55-75 damage in a single strike could eat up all or most of that caster's Hit Points. It's really not "fair" for a rogue's opponent to use True Seeing, but then it's really not "fair" for a rogue to use stealth. If HiPS is in the picture, it's even more unbalanced.
We also have to look at the idea that PvP and adventuring are really two different sorts of situations, and the solution that Akata mentioned from another server would work well in a PvP situation, but it would not really be all that effective "out in the wild" because those creatures tend to be of static builds. Higher-CR creatures may well have enough skill points to overcome your stealth, and you're pretty much in the same situation.
----------------------
Having said all this, it's quite possible that there are a bunch of creatures out there which probably don't need to have True Seeing. It's possible some of these were designed as such to keep the solo mage from sneaking in behind his summon while invisible. Maybe that was overkill. I don't know. If you want to bring up some locations you think need to be reviewed, please do. I'll not promise to change, but I will look.
----------------------
I'm hoping against hope that this does not turn into another "Balance of Rogues" thread or "Roges vs. {some class here}" thread. We have enough of those already.
Post by: Unknown User on September 21, 2010, 08:54:53 PM
What about this, you can use dirty fighting for it, but you'd have to change the requirements and the effect.
The rogue sacrifices all other attacks in the round and attempts to cut the creature right above the eyes and impair the creature's vision as blood will stream down into its eyes.
You'd make a single attack in a round like with dirty fighting, but instead of the 1d4 bonus damage you get a blinding effect, if the creature fails a reflex save (DC = 10 + PC's dex bonus).
Requirements would be epic assassin (11), or rogue (20 to 30-ish). Sadly the pure rogue lvl requirement needs to be very high for balance in respect to multi-classing. Also, it shouldn't be working on creatures with crit immunity, but I'm not sure how that is done with abilities like crippling strike. (think those are hard-coded)
EDIT: Despite of Dorg putting things in perspective while I was typing, I still like the idea.
Post by: Unknown User on September 21, 2010, 09:27:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filatus  An alternative might be giving pure rogues some kind of ability which has a dex based DC. Some sort of effect that takes the creature who is hit and fails the dc, out of combat for one round so they can get their sneak attacks. Just brainstorming at this point. |
Post by: Dezza on September 21, 2010, 11:56:50 PM
// Actually I've worked out Silence is helpful to cast on myself and move next to them so they cannot cast! So I am trying!
Pankoki quote:
ALTERNATIVELY! You can follow the age old strategy for successful roguerizing:
Step 1: Find a tank
Step 2: Stab
Step 3: Profit
*shrugs* Some classes are not meant to solo.
// Love to do that, but when I log in and spend 3.5 hours on the server alone, due to my timezone, its a bit hard.
Post by: Makashi on September 22, 2010, 04:20:21 AM
The server i previously GM'd on ended up changing the True sight spell to ultravision with again, a spot bonus, but also granted immunity to illusion spells, would have been nice to see how it balanced out - but sadly a bug meant illusion spells still worked. (though probably ended up being for the best, as again True sight could have been too powerful with the final immunity).
None the less - both servers version of true sight, in my opinion, is fairer than the standard bioware one, True Seeing should not mean a character with 0 spot can see a rogue with over 60 hide. An investment into that many skill points is completely nullified. I don't see why vital skill points spent like that should be so easily countered.
Some of you probably sit there thinking, 'yeah, but rogues get stuff like open locks, and disarming trap skills.'
You're right, but most mages have that ability too with a stupid summon called the pixie.
I don't see why mages should be able to travel on their lonesome, and be able to virtually access any area. Where as a rogue, trained all of their life to not get caught, -will- get caught/seen, by some one, with 0 points in spot.
If thats not unbalanced, I don't know what
In response to Dorg's statement about asking players to use other tactics, thats great and everything, until true seeing does get cast, and it will be, the mage doesn't have anything else to attempt at countering a rogue sneaking up on them they need TS to provide something to help, but not simply 'here you go, godvision' a bonus to spot would suffice.
Like Dezza has stated, some days I log on, and theres nothing to do on my own at level 32 besides bashing giants in the great forest, it's all G'ork can manage, and I expect rogues of the same level, will struggle far more than G'ork does.
These days if I wander about I am lucky to bump into people, and relieved if I do, I hate mindlessly bashing giants in the great forest, but thats all I can do on my own, and it's not overly rewarding.
Non magic chars simply need a few more places to go to. That they could potentially do on their own, for the sake of doing something other than bashing giants in the GF which is still abused, even more so since the changes in the thunderpeaks.
Post by: Dorganath on September 22, 2010, 08:54:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorganath I'm hoping against hope that this does not turn into another "Balance of Rogues" thread or "Roges vs. {some class here}" thread. We have enough of those already. |
Seriously though (and to repeat myself a different way), I sympathize, but again, there are core design-level issues at work here. It's not just a matter of changing a spell. I guess I'm just not making myself clear on this, but I don't know how else to say it.
Quote:
I don't see why mages should be able to travel on their lonesome, and be able to virtually access any area. Where as a rogue, trained all of their life to not get caught, -will- get caught/seen, by some one, with 0 points in spot. If thats not unbalanced, I don't know what |
Once again, in concept, I agree that the True Seeing effect is too powerful, but then so is Stealth in the way they have been implemented by Bioware. The way Stealth works now, it's really hiding in plain sight. The only practical difference between it and HiPS is that HiPS lets you hide in combat. I've seen rogues hide in the middle of an open road. I've seen rogues standing around in the open but under Stealth. Non-HiPS Stealth is not some magical disappearing act, but that's how Bioware made it and how it's used...and it's also why True Seeing works against it.
For better or worse, Layonara was designed and balanced upon these (and other) mechanics. For what it's worth, I don't agree with casters hiding behind a summons in order to solo, and I don't agree with people using the Pixie familiar as a "pocket Rogue" either.
Post by: Makashi on September 22, 2010, 04:08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorganath Well remember that anywhere a rogue will be seen by True Seeing, a mage will be seen as well. |
What I've suggested many times now, is to implement a few simple areas, or to change a few so that they are suited for a rogue/non-magic wielder. Some where an epic level can log on, with a restricted amount of time, and doing something worth actually doing.
I'm fed up of the Great Forest, And I loved when I could travel with G'ork, Gravas, Goldwin, Hardragh up the peaks, and just enjoy a different challenge, be it for 30mins, an 1hour, or more if I had time.
Currently, this is one of the areas that could possible be changed, I like how it is now due to it being a challenge, but it's so under used, it's not worth the changes.
Nuking the GF of giants didn't deter people, it made them spend more hours bashing giants there. Yes, it slowed the mages down by about....half the exp from a spawn.
My personal request, and suggestion to make things more enjoyable for epic rogues etc, a couple of extra areas that can be accessed without spending 3 hours trying to reach said area. Something that is a challenge, but not impossible to solo.
Perhaps even a dead magic zone where a rogue has to make a very good check to get past a door/entrance to reach said area. (i think DMZ areas stop summons? I think? therefore would prevent pixies gaining access )
If theres a rogue out there without magic and they want to prove my point invalid, please do, I'd love to know where you're going over epic levels so I can go too (aslong as it's not the Great Forest).
@ Dorg
I wasn't really arguing over balancing rogues vs casters, I simply stated a couple of ways true seeing is used on other servers I've played on,
and I think my point was misunderstood, I didn't mean to come accross as wanting the class/spell in question specifically to be altered, but to contradict your point about this not being a balancing of rogues thread. Why not? thats whats causing the issue, at the moment, they cannot solo anywhere over epic levels, that -is- a real balance issue when I've seen mages able to solo to emeralds, and these poor rogues still take a day and a half to take down a giant on the Great Forest, if they try it head on.
Post by: Dorganath on September 22, 2010, 05:58:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makashi @ Dorg I wasn't really arguing over balancing rogues vs casters, I simply stated a couple of ways true seeing is used on other servers I've played on, and I think my point was misunderstood, I didn't mean to come accross as wanting the class/spell in question specifically to be altered, but to contradict your point about this not being a balancing of rogues thread. Why not? thats whats causing the issue, at the moment, they cannot solo anywhere over epic levels, that -is- a real balance issue when I've seen mages able to solo to emeralds, and these poor rogues still take a day and a half to take down a giant on the Great Forest, if they try it head on. |
On mages soloing Emeralds...yeah, I disagree with them doing that too and often enough through the use of G. Sanc. to get down there or near there anyway. In general, I loathe the fact that G. Sanc. is used so often as an "I win" button by casters and non-casters alike, and I am personally somewhat happy that it's buggy, which I have seen in adventuring situations and GM-driven situations.
Yep...I said it. I'm kind of happy that G. Sanc. is buggy. I think it's been over-used and over-abused. But as much as I disagree with its misuse, I also disagree with its removal.
Post by: Makashi on September 22, 2010, 06:39:46 PM