The World of Layonara

The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: drakogear on September 26, 2010, 07:42:23 PM

Title: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on September 26, 2010, 07:42:23 PM
Ok so... as usual I suppose... have a character idea and may perhaps be the first RDD in Layonara. ;)

My question is though, the use of the Draconic Language. Thinking he would be a sorcerer and have a Pseudodragon Familiar. Despite Pseudo meaning fake would they still understand and speak the Draconic language?

Would have posted this in the "Speaking familiars" thread but couldn't find it. :\
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 26, 2010, 08:20:06 PM
He wouldn't be the first RDD in Layonara. *smiles*

A Sorcerer does not need to speak Draconic to speak with his/her familiar, and I think it was established in the past that Pseudodragons don't actually speak, be it Draconic or any other language, but rather communicate through chirps, whistles, purrs and similar sounds.  The empathic bond between Sorcerer/Wizard and familiar enable a sort of low-level communication with some understanding between them even if they don't share a language.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Script Wrecked on September 26, 2010, 09:47:46 PM
The [POST=1304102]Dragon Disciple[/POST] post.

The [THREAD=112827]Do Familiars Talk?[/THREAD] thread.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Ravemore on September 26, 2010, 10:42:10 PM
Quote from: Dorganath
He wouldn't be the first RDD in Layonara. *smiles*


//Are you saying there actually is a RDD that took the levels Dorg? I was aware of that other post linked by Script. Just a yes or no question not requiring any elaboration... Hehe. ;)
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 26, 2010, 11:02:21 PM
He did not take the levels, but he passed his quest and became the role. He should have taken the levels, and probably now would be made to, since the process was pretty linked. Kind of hard to undo. ;)
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dezza on September 27, 2010, 09:04:50 AM
And Draconic is amongst the rarest languages to learn on layonara. The last known 'human', I use that loosely, that spoke it was Oslo, and he's now dead I believe.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 27, 2010, 09:25:22 AM
There are non-draconic NPCs who do speak Draconic, actually. Very, very few, but they do exist.

I think only one PC ever spoke Draconic, and sadly that PC is no longer played.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 27, 2010, 10:42:16 AM
This is very much contradicted by the creation of NPC sects that speak draconic. Before, there were NPCs, yes, that spoke it, but they were rare. We have now established the Dragonlinks and the scholars of Aragen and of course Rofireinites speaking Draconic as if it were not a rarity...

I'm really serious and think you guys need to actually read what you are putting out and the impression you want it to give. "A bevy of draconic speakers" is NOT rare, and should be allowed for people to learn on submission with that kind of numbers in solely the second rate faith on dragon matters. It was very disappointing when that was released with no lead-in, PC involvement, or anything of any kind in the middle of a dragon-focused campaign with a lot of PCs that have worked pretty hard for scraps of dragon matters over the years. With the push of a button we have bevies of dragon speakers with personal dragon friends and research. Sheesh. Why didn't we just leave it to them, then?

It really is a contradiction that should be addressed by either loosening the restrictions on PC draconic, even if only within Aragenite/Lucindite/Rofireinite faiths, or by realizing the sect didn't match your established lore at all and editing it slightly to tone it down. Just saying... we try to help but I feel a little multiple personality when we put stuff like that out but continue saying something different.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 27, 2010, 11:44:34 AM
It was my impression that those sects were relatively small and still on the rare side within those particular faiths.  Maybe I missed something.  I don't believe that speaking/reading Draconic within those faiths is common and is generally limited to individuals within those particular sects.

I'm happy to be told otherwise, however!
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: lonnarin on September 27, 2010, 11:47:38 AM
Just kidnap a kobold and beat it out of him.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 27, 2010, 11:53:29 AM
Like I said, or it could be minorly edited to tone it down, which can be as simple as a choice of words. You guys do know that I generally do not go tirades about things that only me with my poor reading comprehension misunderstands? How something is interpreted is part of the process. Had Rork been the only one mentioned as being fluent, everyone would look past the little-bit sour fact that they were just written in halfway through a campaign in which they should have been known, or that they were written into roles of events past that were PC-driven. Just change the line about there being a bevy of draconic speakers translating away. If it is not what you intended, it should be altered. You know what I mean?

LORE: Lucinda: Sects (http://lore.layonara.com/Lucinda%3A%20Sects)

It is not a question of "what it is" or "what it is not". It is about representation and interpretation. Snippets of writing represent the whole. If the above statements about the rarity and impossibility of learning it remain true, then snip is prone to misinterpretation about the whole. I'm just saying to keep it even across the line; I don't care where the line itself is. We were barred from draconic because no one spoke it anymore, yet here they are...

Alterations can be as simple as phrases like, "Though few in number..." or focusing on single persons that speak it rather than a group.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: lonnarin on September 27, 2010, 02:10:31 PM
I always wondered if sacred texts for the Rofirien & Pyrtechon faiths would be common enough for clergy to learn draconic through those channels.  Sure the local clergy in most towns wouldn't know, but it would make sense that the scholars of the faiths would study draconic texts.  Much like how theologians study Hebrew and Latin, Dragon-God worshipers would seek isdom, studying the ancient texts of dragons.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: EdTheKet on September 27, 2010, 02:53:05 PM
Quote from: Acacea
Like I said, or it could be minorly edited to tone it down, which can be as simple as a choice of words. You guys do know that I generally do not go tirades about things that only me with my poor reading comprehension misunderstands? How something is interpreted is part of the process. Had Rork been the only one mentioned as being fluent, everyone would look past the little-bit sour fact that they were just written in halfway through a campaign in which they should have been known, or that they were written into roles of events past that were PC-driven. Just change the line about there being a bevy of draconic speakers translating away. If it is not what you intended, it should be altered. You know what I mean?

LORE: Lucinda: Sects (http://lore.layonara.com/Lucinda%3A%20Sects)

It is not a question of "what it is" or "what it is not". It is about representation and interpretation. Snippets of writing represent the whole. If the above statements about the rarity and impossibility of learning it remain true, then snip is prone to misinterpretation about the whole. I'm just saying to keep it even across the line; I don't care where the line itself is. We were barred from draconic because no one spoke it anymore, yet here they are...

Alterations can be as simple as phrases like, "Though few in number..." or focusing on single persons that speak it rather than a group.

I'll have a look, a think and a talk :)
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on September 27, 2010, 05:56:52 PM
Quote from: Acacea
It really is a contradiction that should be addressed by either loosening the restrictions on PC draconic, even if only within Aragenite/Lucindite/Rofireinite faiths, or by realizing the sect didn't match your established lore at all and editing it slightly to tone it down.


Considering this (from here (http://lore.layonara.com/Aragen:%20Hierarchy)) -  
Quote
The last faction of the Aragen church are Teachers. This is a late development of the church, designed in response to the occupation of Prantz. The church took no stance on whether the occupation following the war was evil or good, only that there was a huge outcry for knowledge. With the church's goal of even accessibility, members from the existing sections gathered and created this new section so that the knowledge would be accessible to all, even those who could not read. Teachers are slowly being asked for in various kingdoms across the world as tutors for the children of the rich. They also attend some of the orphanages across the land to teach. However, they also teach adults, excluding no one who comes in search of knowledge.

- it's hard to imagine that speaking, reading, and writing any language would remain especially rare for long.  An Aragenite who knows draconic may be obligated to teach others without discrimination (though there could be a fee or something).  Surely there's no reason only one Aragenite would know; that's contrary to the whole notion of accessibility and spreading knowledge.  There's no reason why no Teacher would know; surely not even close to all of them would know, but there must be Teachers who can teach draconic, else they've made a judgment that draconic is trivial and not worthy of repeating to anyone.  Aristocrats, wizards, and various walking moneybags (like adventurers) could all line up for draconic lessons, and only something contrived could stop the logical spread of the language.  *shrug*

Like Acacea, the write-ups read to me like there are plenty of people who know draconic.  The only reason it's rare for us is because there's an OOC rule prohibiting learning from NPCs.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Ravemore on September 27, 2010, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
The only reason it's rare for us is because there's an OOC rule prohibiting learning from NPCs.


I truly dislike this rule. ;) It would be awesome to be able to spend a month or two writing a nice CDT to support a new language request, and for one that is more rare perhaps a CDQ in conjunction.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 27, 2010, 06:40:02 PM
If your desire is to leave it very rare but retain NPC speakers, and have trouble reconciling the quotes above with your desire, I would suggest giving it IC mechanical restrictions that account for its high difficulty to learn. We do know that the syllables themselves are very difficult for humanoids to pronounce, but that's not enough.

My suggestion if that is your desired route (I don't care what route is desired) is something along any or all of these lines at will a) requiring a higher intelligence bonus free, b) arcane ability c) on par with florane, fluency only gained as dragon-taught, d) x amount CHA, SC, or perform to replicate syllables (whatever makes sense I guess), e) have a funny looking face, whatever you can think of and justify and have apply to everyone save the rarest of circumstances (like Brac'ar intensifying his transformative properties, or Rofirein gifting Jennara with his own speech, or Acacea becoming a green dragon disciple, or... you know the kind of unlikely scenarios I am talking about!).

I am sure others can think of more. The idea is that everyone is limited by these, NPC and PC alike, and so regardless of how many willing teachers there are, they would be limited by their audience.

I wouldn't grab onto these and say, "all of them and more, yeah, super rare!" because yeah, I dislike that waste of a language ear, but also because I think florane should not be outdone by draconic. Florane is only limited by the inaccessibility of its speakers - Acacea can say 6 words with no meaning. If any of the t'ol would answer her knocking one time in a hundred, maybe she'd score. Maybe not. There are, however, any number of dragons around...

If such limitations end up ensuring that only 30 INT wizards with the mark of a dragon claw (say through a feat) end up learning the language, so be it. I would say that like all other things, extraordinary events may provide others with the opportunity, and it at least narrows it down a great deal - we would say, alright. Melizaphei has 30+ INT and took the feat. Rork, let us say, had extraordinary circumstances and got it through intensive GM questing with a friendly dragon relationship. Teaching it to others through these humanoids is more difficult and would account for the rarity while not making it entirely impossible, for anyone under the right (rare) circumstances.

You could say it is really not even that useful to be able to speak it... you just get a lot of idiot humans and elves that try talking with a dragon in it and get eaten for their audacity.


----------------------------


As to not allowing NPC taught business, I understand but also understand the reason it came to be... everyone wants to be taught infernal and draconic from their familiars, everyone wants to write how they studied with Elmi at the library for everything dragon-related, and oh look! Here is a chance met wizard on the road that speaks every language in existence! True, it was a different time with a lot more people to look out for, but you really can write circles around anything - I think I could, were it my inclination, write enough circles to score Acacea draconic within 2 months even with the current status of it. I know, skeptical, but given the proper dedication, why not?

I would not be making up NPCs, and I would not be inventing GM witnesses... she's been hoarding a lot of it over the years and has a pretty mad perform, a whole prayer tattooed on her in draconic. If I shifted it into writing as her sole focus in all the world I think I could make a pretty good case, and that they are usually open to "pretty good cases," even accounting for CDQs.

But, it's not her sole thing in all the world, she doesn't focus on it above everything, and in general is split juggling too many partials to ever qualify for such a big whole... If she had 30 INT and there was a feat to take, though... ;)

However, if that were my inclination and I were starting from less, I would request a CDQ to speak with scholars of the tongue, and another later if necessary, and dig straight into the CDT full stop about the studies required. Shoot, take as many as you need to hunt around. After enough dedication, maybe some other quest to top it off, I don't see why not, unless it is for Shadow or Florane. I think most people don't even want to think of the dedication required, though.

I thought of trying CDQs for the latter (florane), but they won't answer her knocking ever. :(
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 27, 2010, 07:34:13 PM
PS We got very off-topic, didn't we?
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 27, 2010, 07:44:07 PM
Just a bit *smiles*
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on September 27, 2010, 07:44:46 PM
It's for a good cause.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: jrizz on September 28, 2010, 01:15:59 AM
who is Rork O'Mallory? Was he a PC that turned NPC or was he conjured up?
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Rowana on September 28, 2010, 01:22:45 AM
Hi there...

Just for some clarity, I'm not seeing where there's a sect of the Aragenites who speak Draconic, nor one that is a Teacher of said language. I've reviewed the lore I wrote and... I don't have anything in there... I realize that it might be implied/interpreted a certain way in the Dragonlinks text that the Aragenite Scholars might host many speakers of Draconic but that would be a flawed interpretation. Aragenites as potential teachers of Draconic should be struck/stricken/removed from the above list of 'NPCs who know...'

I'm not saying that there aren't Aragenites out there who might have either beginning understanding of or even fully attained knowledge of the dragon tongue/ear/language but there are not vast numbers of them who speak it. It would be a rare, rare instance if it is indeed a fact.

Additionally, not all Aragenites share the teacher's philosophy. Many are more like 'hoarders' rather then 'sharers' (Kind of old world dragon-like!). I feel it's important to note that the Teaching Sect is very new in the grand scheme of things and as a result very small. Suggesting that they would spread a language of any kind the world over (excepting Common) in a short span is actually a pretty incorrect.

It bears reminding that Draconic is actually a rather dangerous language to know. One might compare the hoarding of the dragon's language to the supposed hoarding of Elvish. While Elvish is guarded by most elves and not taught to outsiders to protect their culture, dragons might actually go out of their way to kill those who have an understanding of the dragon's language.

Further derailment... I know... It needed to be clarified however.

@Jrizz, read the info linked in Acacea's post on Lucindite Sects.

~row
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: jrizz on September 28, 2010, 01:30:18 AM
@Row I did read it. I was just wondering if he was once a PC. Seems a really cool role to lock into a NPC.

Anyway to one Acacea's points, would not old Rork there be, from the start, a really big part of the current plot? Maybe he already is and I just have never heard of him (could happen LOL). But if not, we should really tap that guy.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Rowana on September 28, 2010, 01:48:27 AM
Rork is already involved with the plot. That's all I can comment on. Any further should probably be discovered IG through IC means.

~row
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dezza on September 28, 2010, 01:57:39 AM
The PC that spoke Draconic was Quintain Rosewarne (I think thas how it was spelt). It took him a great deal of effort and time to learn some of the language. Even he was not an expert by any means.

I have spent a great deal of time and effort in the past trying to gain insight into the draconic language, first with Tarradon and then with Sasha to no avail despite great efforts in this regard.

It has always been portrayed as a suitably epic beyond epic achievement to learn draconic.

The Rofireinites have ancient texts that contain some draconic but certainly not much to be able to suddenly forge a live language from it.

Today however the dragons have returned, this may provide a new vehicle for future PC's to be able to learn draconic from the returned dragons, if they can find one who is willing to teach them. My question to that would be..why should they.

Am I bitter and twisted about the apparent unavailability of Draconic for PC's, absolutely! Am I willing to see it allowed for PC's with relaxed restrictions from what it has been in the past? No way. And yes I am probably being a bit selfish in this regard. I've poured my heart and soul into Rofirein since I started playing here many years ago and still have never been able to achieve it. Tarradon Duvall tried the most and it was made clear then that Draconic was a no go...he learn't a bit from Quintain over the years which appeased me somewhat. Sasha was my next attempt and even though she was twice Tarradons level in the end she learnt even less.

I know people are going to post, yes well it took me this long to achieve this, and this long to achieve that and thats fine, congrats! and well done. I'm referring to this little, insignificant to some, but important to me, pet disappointment of my time on Layo.


When I see players post, and I quote Acacea here:

'We have now established the Dragonlinks and the scholars of Aragen and of course Rofireinites speaking Draconic as if it were not a rarity...'

I cringe inside and start to rock at its implications. My first thoughts are when? How? and why? Because as far as I am concerned this is not the case, but, I have corrected another GM before using a Rofireinite speaking Draconic when such should not be the case. If a player can make a statement such as the one here based on a mistake a GM has made then so be it, but when its not corrected it creates misconceptions like we have here.

I'll stop now because I've lost track of where I was going with this and since this is one area I still feel pain from :)  I better go and relax.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Script Wrecked on September 28, 2010, 05:06:57 AM
Quote from: jrizz
I was just wondering if he was once a PC.


If being Dragon Called was strictly the providence of PCs, then this would allude to O'Mallory having been once a PC:

Quote from: Lucinda: Sects
... as well as having been one of the Dragon Called before Ozlo's death.


Otherwise, not. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Script Wrecked.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Pibemanden on September 28, 2010, 05:44:33 AM
Quote from: Script Wrecked
If being Dragon Called was strictly the providence of PCs, then this would allude to O'Mallory having been once a pc


It wasn't, there were NPCs in the previous plot who were dragon called... Or at least NPCs who were dragon called even back then
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Filatus on September 28, 2010, 05:51:45 AM
Yep, remember a few on The Hunt, which was quite some time ago.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 28, 2010, 08:38:39 AM
Quote from: jrizz
Anyway to one Acacea's points, would not old Rork there be, from the start, a really big part of the current plot? Maybe he already is and I just have never heard of him (could happen LOL). But if not, we should really tap that guy.

As Row said, he is involved.  Most visibly, he was at Daniella's meeting to discuss an alliance against the Cult in Huangjin a little while back.  I think Wren was even there too. *smiles*

Quote from: Script Wrecked
If being Dragon Called was strictly the providence of PCs, then this would allude to O'Mallory having been once a PC

Being Dragoncalled was not strictly the providence of the PCs, and neither is being Stonebound.  All PCs were (at the time) Dragoncalled, but not all Dragoncalled were PCs, just as now all PCs are Stonebound but not all Stonebound are PCs.

So no, Rork was not formerly a PC, though we do have examples of those that were throughout the game world, whether from the NWN version or Leanthar's original PnP campaign (Alexei, Rainstroff, Eon, Katia...to name a few).
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 28, 2010, 09:35:46 AM
No one said he wasn't involved. The key phrase in jrizz's post was, "from the start." I acknowledged his involvement when I commented on the sect being posted halfway through, a bit like the Reaching being posted for Storold's hearing.

Regarding rowana's post, the potential for misunderstanding was kind of why I posted the question about editing. It was also suggested that the Dragonlinks did not have many speakers at all, but the sect summary states that there is a bevy of speakers, the leader is quite fluent and has a personal dragon friend and was involved with all those past PC dealin's with dragons, and that while they have the pond in matters arcane, the Aragenites are far and away the leaders in the realm of dragonlore. You think I'm harping on a phrase, but that's why I'm saying it can be as simple as a few edits to completely change the tone.

I did not say there was a specific sect for draconic teachers in Aragen's faith, I said that they held the "undisputed bulk of knowledge..." regarding them, putting them above even Lucinda's sect, and Gulnyr commented on the nature of Aragenites in general as enlighteners of the world in combination. (Though it appears that that is not a priority any longer!)

Quote
It is about representation and interpretation.


That was the purpose. If your statements regarding Aragen's faith are considered fact, then the ones in the Lucinda page are very open to misinterpretation and can be edited. Ed said he was going to look at it. Pointing out that there is a misunderstanding is like coming into LA rush hour and saying "cars are stopped!" "We know!" We are attempting to make it consistent so that if you say that very few Aragenites speak the language, that the Dragonlink page doesn't imply otherwise, that if the Dragonlinks themselves are only few in number or rarely speak the tongue, that it is not implied otherwise. If there is misunderstanding, to tweak phrasing or word choice to make clear the potency of ye olde NPC powers.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on September 28, 2010, 10:43:05 AM
Milty's thoughts and opinions, not verified as accurate:

I would imagine there are far more non-dragons that can read and potentially write draconic but not be able to speak it. Learning to read and write a language is such a different thing from learning to speak it. In many senses, reading and writing draconic should be much more feasible than attempting to speak a language spoken by lizards. Most scholars would have little use with speaking the language anyway, but being able to read and write it would be a significant skill, and I would think that simply having access to ancient texts in draconic would have pushed the curious to pursue an understanding of how the written side of the language works, and to write at least one discourse on the basics of interpreting written draconic.

I suppose that doesn't really touch on the rarity of draconic speakers/readers/writers as a whole, but rather in relation to each other.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 28, 2010, 12:04:04 PM
Yeah, you know...just forget I said anything in this thread.  

The point was to illustrate that within the NPC population as a whole, which vastly outnumbers the PC population and even the select NPCs and NPC groups that are written up in our lore, the command of the Draconic language is a very rare thing.

I did not expect my few words would be minced and dissected with as much energy and enthusiasm. I did not mean for anyone to become irritated at an apparent (and unintended) contradiction. I did not think that the statement of rarity was not supported by lore, but it appears that this is not a universal perception.

I'll let Ed handle it from here and keep my opinions on the matter to myself.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Kaail on September 28, 2010, 12:09:08 PM
*pats dorg on the back*

It's okay, this happens to me too
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 28, 2010, 02:16:03 PM
I'm sorry that you feel that way or feel that your opinions are not welcomed or relevant. The point I was intending to make was not that it is not rare, but that the view of most people and GMs is exactly as you say, while the writing itself to those of us reading it seems to not be the same. The discussion is not whether or not it is rare, just how really inaccessible it would remain according to the text and if there are changes to either that can be made that would make it more visibly consistent to those of us that read it quite differently and feel that an OOC rule is the only thing making it "impossible" for our PCs at any level to achieve something NPCs gather to do. Once Ed said he would look at it I was fine waiting to see what he thought.

If it was made directed at the "from the start" comment, I clarified that because it was relating to what I said in one of my earliest posts, and saying "is involved" was not the point of that. It did not make the other post untrue. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on September 28, 2010, 03:05:21 PM
Well...no.

Apparently I've been misunderstood again, but I'm not sure I could clarify.

You're absolutely right; it's all about perception, and in this case my own statement of perception was met not with a simple, "hey, this seems to be contradicted now or at least confusing" but rather a lengthy retort on just how wrong it was. But it's fine. If I'm wrong or the team is wrong, that's fine. We'll make it work.

Anyway, I'm not concerned and there's no need to apologize. I'm not stepping back because I feel my comments are "irrelevant" or "unwanted", but rather because despite my intentions, I'm not adding positively to the discussion. I figure three "strikes" in one thread was sign enough that I should just step away and stop trying to explain, help or clarify. I truly did not expect such an empassioned response nor such a detailed disassembly of such few words.

No harm, no foul. Like I said, I'll leave this in Ed's hands.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: jrizz on September 28, 2010, 05:25:27 PM
Quote from: Dorganath
As Row said, he is involved.  Most visibly, he was at Daniella's meeting to discuss an alliance against the Cult in Huangjin a little while back.  I think Wren was even there too. *smiles*


Thank you for the reminder! Now that Wren knows about him, he can go see him :) whoo hooo!
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dezza on September 28, 2010, 07:49:42 PM
The problem here to I think Acacea is that Lore is an incredibly complex and vast entity of itself. There are so many different poeple having input into it over a long period of time there will indeed be some discrepencies.

I think if people are willing to bring them to peoples attention in order to review them as Ed has agreed to do rather than assume they are 100% accurate lore and true stories and almost indicate that we have done something wrong and have deliberately messed up someones ideas of something it would be far more beneficial.

I know thats probably not your intention in this thread and reading words never truly gives you an indication of the tone someone means it to sound like but I get the feel from this thread that you think we have done the player base a disservice by having something conflicting in Lore or unclear.

People need to understand that sometimes too what is in Lore is heresay or a story of something and may not be the absolute truth and this is deliberate. I know thats not the case in this instance but a simple. Hey Ed, can you check if this is right because it conflicts with this and this would have, I am thinking, been more than adequate.

Managing Lore is never easy in such a dynamic and rich environment such as Layonara and yes there will always be mistakes and conflicting information, people just have to accept that, deal with it when it arises and continue to move forward. Its just one of those things people need to give those who manage it a fair break.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on September 28, 2010, 08:52:17 PM
Quote from: Rowana
I'm not saying that there aren't Aragenites out there who might have either beginning understanding of or even fully attained knowledge of the dragon tongue/ear/language but there are not vast numbers of them who speak it. It would be a rare, rare instance if it is indeed a fact.

There may be a little miscommunication between all of us around the word "speak."  Used in the quote and in Milt's post, "speaking draconic" is literally making words with the mouth, and it's perfectly reasonable that humanoid faces can't just do that.  I think some of Acacea's (and maybe others') "speaking draconic" just refers to knowing the language, more or less synonymous with "having the ear."  If a character "speaks elven," it means that character has the ear for elven language even if elven words never come out, y'know?  I'm pointing that out because I was reading back through and I'm not sure we're all on the same point sometimes.

Quote
Additionally, not all Aragenites share the teacher's philosophy. Many are more like 'hoarders' rather then 'sharers' (Kind of old world dragon-like!). I feel it's important to note that the Teaching Sect is very new in the grand scheme of things and as a result very small. Suggesting that they would spread a language of any kind the world over (excepting Common) in a short span is actually a pretty incorrect.

I think my point remains valid.  If there is one Teacher who can read and write draconic, it is only a matter of time before the knowledge spreads among those who want to know how to read and write it.  It doesn't even have to be an Aragenite Teacher.  If there is any individual who knows and is willing to teach others, the knowledge would spread.  It's just that a member of the Teacher sect is in a position to spread it farthest fastest.  The more people who know, even if there are many hoarders, the faster it spreads.  The more "lubrication" there is, like, say, plenty of money changing hands, the faster it spreads.  Looking back to the first quote above regarding Aragenites "having the ear" and assuming something similar is also true for the Dragonlinks (ie, the LORE page is right about plenty of translators), how is it at all possible to say knowledge of reading and writing the language wouldn't spread at a fair pace or that anyone who wanted to learn would have trouble finding someone to instruct him?  It's just fiat to say no one who knows would teach others at any cost.  That's just the OOC rule with some very poor IC dressing on it.

I'd like to offer a limitation of some sort to help out, but I can't think of anything that isn't just nonsense, like that one at the end of the previous paragraph.  The plain OOC rule about not learning from NPCs is actually less irritating.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Cinnabar on September 28, 2010, 09:30:45 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
... who can read and write draconic ...


I'd raise a semi-ignorant question here: Draconic is a written language? why? Have dragons written? ^^

Quote
"speaking draconic" just refers to knowing the language, more or less synonymous with "having the ear."


That however -does- make sense to me... the ability to learn a language from immersive exposure, listening in context, even if never being able to speak it.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on September 28, 2010, 09:53:13 PM
Quote from: Cinnabar
I'd raise a semi-ignorant question here: Draconic is a written language? why? Have dragons written?


Apparently so.  Jennara has come across multiple written examples of draconic, like the big, bronze plaque thing in the forgotten temple of Kraraxeni, which Jennara made rubbings of on a couple of pieces of cloth.

Quote from: Cinnabar
That however -does- make sense to me... the ability to learn a language from immersive exposure, listening in context, even if never being able to speak it.

That does make sense but is not what I was saying.  I meant it like "having an ear for halfling language in my inventory," not like "having an ear for music."
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Rowana on September 28, 2010, 11:38:10 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
I think my point remains valid.  If there is one Teacher who can read and write draconic, it is only a matter of time before the knowledge spreads among those who want to know how to read and write it.  It doesn't even have to be an Aragenite Teacher.  If there is any individual who knows and is willing to teach others, the knowledge would spread.  It's just that a member of the Teacher sect is in a position to spread it farthest fastest.  The more people who know, even if there are many hoarders, the faster it spreads.  The more "lubrication" there is, like, say, plenty of money changing hands, the faster it spreads.  Looking back to the first quote above regarding Aragenites "having the ear" and assuming something similar is also true for the Dragonlinks (ie, the LORE page is right about plenty of translators), how is it at all possible to say knowledge of reading and writing the language wouldn't spread at a fair pace or that anyone who wanted to learn would have trouble finding someone to instruct him?  It's just fiat to say no one who knows would teach others at any cost.  That's just the OOC rule with some very poor IC dressing on it.

I'm only going to address this point the rest should be handled by the LoreMaster with whatever comes of his discussion/thinking stuff.

My point was trying to be clarifying without painting any other GMs into the corner. There is no lore stating that there are a large or even small number of draconic speaking Aragenites at this time. The entry under the Lucnidite Dragonlinks should be interpreted as Aragenites hold the largest recorded lore on dragons (somewhere) of any group, not counting the dragons themselves. This is not to say that it's been locked down and away so that GMs cannot create for their quest needs in the future. At least for the Aragenite Teachers, there is no one teaching Draconic, nor any willing sorts to teach in the faith  out in the world at this time.

As to other people teaching Draconic, and I'll happily accept LoreMaster correction here, but if it were actively being taught around the world I'm 99% certain the dragons would collectively put a stop to it and perhaps begin eradicating speakers of Draconic (including their own who are willing to teach) from the lands of Layonara. This isn't fabrication to explain why it isn't spreading the world over at any kind of speed, it's an honest evaluation from me (see also: not official Team stance) on the current lore of dragons in Layonara. Therefore, anyone speaking/reading/writing Draconic likely has a self imposed tether or a more literal tether to any number of dragons currently in existence.

~row
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Filatus on September 28, 2010, 11:48:39 PM
To me it always seemed like Aragenites are more about hoarding knowledge than spreading it, And after all, the search for knowledge is as important as acquiring it. Apart from that, they're encouraged to take as neutral a stance as possible.

And I wouldn't consider arming Stonebounds with knowledge in the war against the Cult, very neutral.

Edit: Though, after having typed that and reading up on Aragen's Teachers, I am starting to doubt whether I have a good understanding of the faith. Since we've been talking about perspective and all.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Pseudonym on September 29, 2010, 12:04:31 AM
This is why I play a rogue. He learnt elven in order to woo a woman. He cares little for subtleties of faith and dogma. He is mostly happy to leave dragons to entertain themselves. I am the kind of player Dorg loves (in principle anyway).
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on September 29, 2010, 12:59:48 AM
If the interpretation of any of my posts at any time has been that I believe or accuse the team to be deliberately confusing players or otherwise causing hardship in interpretations then I would absolutely clarify. I am perfectly aware of complications in writing consistency and have pointed many out to different people over time, to the point of arguing through PMs about whether or not something is true to its intent. I have been in PM whirlwinds over something being changed that I felt strongly contradicted established knowledge, and have also made posts in defense of the team elsewhere when a decision based on whatever is accurate.

Not all of my suggestions made it to the right people and were never addressed, but some have been pretty public and have seemed to just be how things are going to be with relation to a subject, and become something to be resigned to. My original comment on this subject was a leap of opportunity, not because I wished to rub Dorg's face or yours into your horrible player-misleading ways, but because it appeared that one thing was still standard while writing suggested another, and I wished to bring them together, to whatever standard was kept. I was surprised and pleased at Ed's reply just saying he would even look, and was wagging-tailed content to wait and see what occurred. In the meantime I suggested possible ways you could account for both NPC speakers and the very slow spread depending on how someone wanted to do it.

After that there was a little frustration, the kind that you start getting a hint of when you're almost being misquoted but not quite. All the discussion on whether or not we were right about how draconic is or isn't was pointless to me, because my only concern was matching it. That's why I said it could be as simple as a minor edit or choice of words and really wouldn't be a big deal to adjust if it was found to be a bit much.

Regarding hearsay, perception was the point. If it is hearsay, it should not be written with a third party biased source, not the objective omnipotent used to pass GM information to players for use.

Once again, if any indication was given that I believe someone is seriously doing it on purpose rather than just having a lot of people submitting different things, that was incredibly far from my intentions. And, once again, I cannot speak for others but I certainly have made many comments and suggestions of the kind in the past and have gotten quite worn out with their reception and cool treatment, which has led to me often knee-jerk grumbling ahead of time in expectation of the response. Ed's reply was a pleasant and straightforward surprise to me that I was happy with, but that doesn't make it always so. I am much more used to the other responses, which are "you're reading it wrong" or "I don't think there are really that many" and "I would be really bitter if you lowered the requirements." I don't really care about all of that.

I'm not exactly asking anyone to be drawn and quartered. I just asked to look at the phrasing to see if it could be worded differently, more in line with whatever expectations were to be had regarding the language.

*shrugs* Wording and perception - if you don't get what I said, then it is as much my fault for the way I chose to write it than in the way you read it, if my interest is really in making my meaning clear. That's unfortunately why I also keep typing when it appears it is not in my best interest.

PS Filatus, Aragenites used to be completely gung-ho share knowledge with the world, and had bad vibes with Lucinda because of her refusal to share the higher mysteries and whatnot ;) Remember the tomes? They only got packed up when the islands were attacked, because the world did not seem ready for knowledge. Until then there was one in every temple. Now it seems like there is more room for hoarders, but at the time it really seemed anti-Aragenite to not share wisdom and enlightenment.

Quote from: Dezza
The problem here to I think Acacea is that Lore is an incredibly complex and vast entity of itself. There are so many different poeple having input into it over a long period of time there will indeed be some discrepencies.

I think if people are willing to bring them to peoples attention in order to review them as Ed has agreed to do rather than assume they are 100% accurate lore and true stories and almost indicate that we have done something wrong and have deliberately messed up someones ideas of something it would be far more beneficial.

I know thats probably not your intention in this thread and reading words never truly gives you an indication of the tone someone means it to sound like but I get the feel from this thread that you think we have done the player base a disservice by having something conflicting in Lore or unclear.

People need to understand that sometimes too what is in Lore is heresay or a story of something and may not be the absolute truth and this is deliberate. I know thats not the case in this instance but a simple. Hey Ed, can you check if this is right because it conflicts with this and this would have, I am thinking, been more than adequate.

Managing Lore is never easy in such a dynamic and rich environment such as Layonara and yes there will always be mistakes and conflicting information, people just have to accept that, deal with it when it arises and continue to move forward. Its just one of those things people need to give those who manage it a fair break.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: EdTheKet on September 29, 2010, 02:53:30 AM
This became a long thread!

I looked at the text in question and can see where it doesn't match how we're portraying the extent of the number of people speaking draconic, it being taught and all that.
I'll have it remedied in the near future. However, there's also some points I have to talk to Leanthar about and he's out until the end of the week so I'll get back to this later and cover it all in one go (I hope, if not you're all vocal enough to ask ;) ).
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on September 29, 2010, 03:02:28 PM
Quote from: Rowana
As to other people teaching Draconic, and I'll happily accept LoreMaster correction here, but if it were actively being taught around the world I'm 99% certain the dragons would collectively put a stop to it and perhaps begin eradicating speakers of Draconic (including their own who are willing to teach) from the lands of Layonara. This isn't fabrication to explain why it isn't spreading the world over at any kind of speed, it's an honest evaluation from me (see also: not official Team stance) on the current lore of dragons in Layonara. Therefore, anyone speaking/reading/writing Draconic likely has a self imposed tether or a more literal tether to any number of dragons currently in existence.


I can dig it.  As long as we can agree dragons don't see everything and that there must be people to whom the reward of teaching or learning outweighs the risk of being eaten, then I can't complain.  In other words, it's basically analogous to drug trafficking: the dragons are the cops, the language is the drug, the teachers are the suppliers and dealers, and the learners are the buyers.  Learning draconic is something that goes on behind closed doors.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Rowana on September 29, 2010, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
I can dig it.  As long as we can agree dragons don't see everything and that there must be people to whom the reward of teaching or learning outweighs the risk of being eaten, then I can't complain.  In other words, it's basically analogous to drug trafficking: the dragons are the cops, the language is the drug, the teachers are the suppliers and dealers, and the learners are the buyers.  Learning draconic is something that goes on behind closed doors.

I actually can't agree to that! For lore reasons I won't openly share (but I know you, Gulnyr, have access to that information!) there are 'some' dragons who could see such events if they were looking for them! That is not to say that they would look, that they would know -where- to look, etc, etc. There's plenty of realistic factors that would narrow the risk but the possibility is there that they might be able to discover what is going on even behind only mediocre scrying wards....

But yes, none of them are All-Seeing (except for the godly types and, well, you know how that kind of involvement goes!) and there would have to be exceptional precautions taken but it -could- be done without their knowledge.

~row
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on September 29, 2010, 04:29:20 PM
Quote
For lore reasons I won't openly share (but I know you, Gulnyr, have access to that information!) there are 'some' dragons who could see such events if they were looking for them!


Even in dead magic areas? ;) Maybe they don't bother with the Al'Noth and use blood pools to handle the magic instead. :p I mean, who needs the Al'noth when you have a blood pool at your disposal? **starts running from all the Lucindite magic missiles, yelling back over a shoulder** I'm starting a draconic language school in the Great Rift! Who's joining me? And as an added bonus, all the dark elves you could ever wish to eat!
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 04:49:08 AM
Wow! this thread has grown sins I first posted it and a bit away from my intended question witch was mostly if Pseudodragons could speak and understand draconic but that was answers way at the start so no harm. Guess I'll have to think of some other way the young sorcerers Pseudodragon tells him of his fathers secret studies of the dragons. Namely the learning and practice of draconic language... if that's even submittable at start.

BTW, yes this is a character though that I might submit some day and with the primary goal for him is becoming an RDD. In a since, furthering his own draconic studies.

Why? Cause... I like dragons. *points to name and portrait* Cant you tell. :)
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Acacea on October 03, 2010, 07:28:13 AM
Quote from: drakogear
Namely the learning and practice of draconic language... if that's even submittable at start.


It's not.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 09:39:58 AM
awwww, but if there no player that knows it then how is he supposed to learn it? One thing about this character in mind is that he strives to learn as much as he can about dragons. learning draconic would be of greatly valuable help in that.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on October 03, 2010, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: drakogear
One thing about this character in mind is that he strives to learn as much as he can about dragons. learning draconic would be of greatly valuable help in that.

Access to draconic writings is very limited.  Jennara, all forty levels of her, has seen a handful of draconic writings in her whole life.  That's more than a century, with deep involvement on some very dragony quests, and she's a halfling so that's also a tiny hand.  Knowing draconic is not nearly as important for learning about dragons as you might think.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: darkstorme on October 03, 2010, 03:10:56 PM
Quote from: Gulnyr
... and she's a halfling so that's also a tiny hand ...


*grins*
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 05:04:22 PM
Well, may not be a deeply needed skill but would still say that knowing the language would be of great help. After all how would we know all there is we know about ancient egiptions if no one was able to speak and understand there writings. We would have strange looking eye, standing spear man, three kneeling men, A beetle, a bird and some wavy lines. For one to study something ancient yet not know anything about how to speak there ancient language or atleast understand the writings would get an archeologist practically no where. So knowledge of the language even if partial would still be valuable to studying them.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: darkstorme on October 03, 2010, 05:32:58 PM
Quote from: drakogear
Well, may not be a deeply needed skill but would still say that knowing the language would be of great help. After all how would we know all there is we know about ancient egiptions if no one was able to speak and understand there writings. We would have strange looking eye, standing spear man, three kneeling men, A beetle, a bird and some wavy lines. For one to study something ancient yet not know anything about how to speak there ancient language or atleast understand the writings would get an archeologist practically no where. So knowledge of the language even if partial would still be valuable to studying them.


In fairness, no living individual speaks ancient Egyptian.  A few speak its descendant, Coptic, but, barring time travel, the original spoken language has been lost forever.

And many archeologists specialize in Ancient Crete and the Minoan civilization - and there's no one who can even read the written language of the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A), let alone speak it.  And yet, a great deal is known about the Minoans from that period, both from discovered artifacts and - particularly pertinent to your request - the writings of those civilizations whose writing we can read that were contemporary.

Elves, humans, dwarves, and the other humanoid races were all out and about at the same time (http://lore.layonara.com/The%20Layonara%20Timeline#neg1100) as a great number of dragons.  Given the nature of the relationship between them, it's a safe bet that there are lots of ancient records, either archived or hidden away, in antiquated dialects of modern languages, easily interpretable.

Given the dearth of those who speak Draconic, and the distinct shortage of written works in the language, it would make more sense for an intended scholar of Dragonkind to pick up other languages than it would for them to learn the tongue of the great wyrms.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Gulnyr on October 03, 2010, 06:50:11 PM
Quote from: darkstorme
Given the dearth of those who speak Draconic, and the distinct shortage of written works in the language, it would make more sense for an intended scholar of Dragonkind to pick up other languages than it would for them to learn the tongue of the great wyrms.

Or even to make friends with a dragon.  It's particularly tough to befriend a dragon but not impossible, and they often speak "lesser languages" that are easy for our characters to learn.  That's pretty extreme, yeah, but information would come straight from the horse's mouth* that way, and one friendly dragon could easily say more than is likely ever to be found written anywhere by any of our characters.  And since every dragon I've ever seen has been loath to speak draconic to the lesser races, knowing the language really doesn't help at all.

Written draconic really is especially rare, by the way.  That's not just some exaggeration we're tossing out.  Egyptian hieroglyphics are not a good analogy.  Hieroglyphics can be found all over the place, written everywhere all over the Egyptian's stuff.  Draconic isn't like that.  In an old temple to a dragon god, there was one written example of the language, and it was only thirty words long (and a bunch of those were only 'of' and 'the').

*Don't say that IC.  Your character will be eaten.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 07:43:49 PM
So... there actually not much use for PCs to learn draconic language? Hm, suppose would still be interesting in the least. Could I suppose try befriending a dragon and having him teach the sorcerer. Highly dought Fastion (can't spell name) would be all that willing to teach let alone befriend any lesser race... though is the only red dragon that can grant RDD... witch kinda sucks. Oh well... maybe IC perception hes not all that evil... he is lawfull after all so has to follow some code. What ever that may be. As long as he doesn't go about telling the neutral sorcerer to go about doing things of great evil.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: darkstorme on October 03, 2010, 07:57:08 PM
Quote from: drakogear
So... there actually not much use for PCs to learn draconic language? Hm, suppose would still be interesting in the least. Could I suppose try befriending a dragon and having him teach the sorcerer. Highly doubt Fastion (can't spell name) would be all that willing to teach let alone befriend any lesser race... though is the only red dragon that can grant RDD... witch kinda sucks. Oh well... maybe IC perception hes not all that evil... he is lawful after all so has to follow some code. What ever that may be. As long as he doesn't go about telling the neutral sorcerer to go about doing things of great evil.


The general perception, in-game, about Fisterion (http://lore.layonara.com/Fisterion) is that he is extremely evil.  This doesn't mean he can't be reasoned with, but it does mean that the things he'd want a follower to do would generally be pretty awful.

And who ever said he was Lawful?  He's a follower of (and, it is rumoured, avatar and/or child of) Pyrtechon (http://lore.layonara.com/Pyrtechon).  So the only code he's been known to follow is, "What would I like to do?"
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 08:07:00 PM
Ah... thought I saw some where that he was LE. Heh, my mistake. Well... being a neutral sorcerer he probably wouldn't have to much of a problem commuting evil... just not to extreme I would imagine.

Ok... question of RDD. Seeming the powers are only attained from being given from a dragon... does that mean they can take the powers away too? Like how a deity takes there powers away from a fallen cleric or paladin?
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: darkstorme on October 03, 2010, 08:28:33 PM
I can't speak to the mechanics of the class; I'll leave that to the people who were involved with the only other successful RDD ECDQ.

However, I think that it's a safe bet that if Fisterion granted RDD abilities to someone who then used them for a purpose that the King of Dragons disapproved of, having their powers removed would be the least of their worries.  I imagine Fisteion would revoke all their privileges.  Breathing, for one.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 08:37:11 PM
Well... given the class description its morely attained with the awakening of the sorcerers/bards draconic blood. That becoming an infusion of the blood and I would imagine not really removable... aside from killing them.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Script Wrecked on October 03, 2010, 08:41:59 PM
Blood has [POST=1303522]nothing[/POST] to do with being a Red Dragon Disciple in Layonara, *cough* despite what is written in Lore (http://lore.layonara.com/Red%20Dragon%20Disciple) *cough*.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on October 03, 2010, 08:49:00 PM
From the same thread: *quotes self*

http://forums.layonara.com/ask-gamemaster/228762-quest-dragons-disciple.html#post1303572
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: miltonyorkcastle on October 03, 2010, 08:57:36 PM
Um, yeah, sorry about the confusion on the LORE page- we are actually working on new write-ups for all the classes that make more sense with regard to Layo lore, but alas, we're just not fast enough.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: darkstorme on October 03, 2010, 08:59:17 PM
As in previous discussions related to the class descriptions of Monks and Weapon Masters on LORE (mostly to do with the presence or absence of "ki" in Layonara), unfortunately the current class descriptions in LORE are copied verbatim from those that come from the NWN Handbook (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Red_dragon_disciple), and may not accurately reflect the classes as they exist in Layonara.  This is currently in the process of being corrected, but as with everything else, this takes time.

This is not to say that it's not possible that the description is accurate, but given the scarcity of dragons in Layonara, it's hard to believe that all sorcerers and bards in the world come from crossbreeding between dragons and "lesser species".

Again, however, the final word on the subject will have to come from someone other than I.

Edit: Had to come from someone other than I, and did.  Thanks, guys!
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: drakogear on October 03, 2010, 09:00:30 PM
Then how is it done and the progressive mutation from normal race to having seemingly scaly skin and wings... and possible horns and tail. ;)  Horns from tiefling head. (They look possibly draconic to me) The tail added through CDQ I suppose. (any red reptilian tail should do)

Eh, find out if and when I make the sorcerer and get him to take the WLDQ. Hm, perhaps keeping in line with Fisterion. Regardless of character current alignment he would perhaps under go a sort of emotional change. Becoming more aggressive and chaotic as the transformation proceeds to its finally at level 10. Becoming more and more like a dragon on nature as it where. Though perhaps trying to avoid becoming evil in the precess.

Additionally I would think in terms of a neutral RDD Fisterion would mostly prefer CN as they would perhaps be more likely to spread the chaos of Pyrtechon... er... Fisterion
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: Dorganath on October 03, 2010, 09:25:22 PM
Once more, with feeling:

Quote from: Dorganath
You need to start a dialog with Leanthar and  EdTheKet on this if you're serious about it. Anything that anyone else  will tell you will bet at best incomplete and at worst  inaccurate.

You can speculate and rationalize all you want.  The keepers of this particular bit of lore, that being the RDD class, are at the very top of the organization. Whatever you may think of the class, what the rationale may be or what may seem to make sense, Leanthar has very specific requirements and intent for the RDD class, which is why they are so extremely rare.

So if you have any further speculations or inquiries regarding the RDD class, you need to have the conversation with Leanthar and/or EdTheKet, because nothing anyone else says here is going to make any difference whatsoever.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: EdTheKet on October 04, 2010, 04:52:36 PM
Quote
So if you have any further speculations or inquiries regarding the RDD class, you need to have the conversation with Leanthar and/or EdTheKet, because nothing anyone else says here is going to make any difference whatsoever.
 
 :) or very limited difference at that. All inquiries can be addressed to me or (preferably) posted here so that everyone can read.
 
 And indeed, LORE has the verbatim NWN text. It is not true that all bards and sorcs have dragon blood traces in them. But, we will stick to the mechanical requirement of Bard or Sorceror for purely mechanical reasons and us not willing to spend any programming time on potentially expanding prerequisite classes.
 
 Some other points:
 - I will not divulge what Fisterion (or potential others) would put the character through in order to become an RDD
 - Don't count on it being one CDQ, it's a journey down a road to corruption, so to speak, so let go of any hope to obtain RDD upon a first CDQ, this is WLDQ only as mentioned on LORE LORE: Prestige Class Submission Requirements (http://lore.layonara.com/PrestigeClassSubmissionRequirements)
 - reason for this is that a dragon is not just going to make anyone and everyone its disciple. One single CDQ is not going to cut it, you're going to have to do several which would culminate into a WLDQ which may or may not be succesfull.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: lonnarin on October 04, 2010, 08:56:24 PM
If I had the slot free, I'd make a sorcerer Red Dragon Disciple fire mage that would blow your socks off.  Sadly, I'm too attached to the ones I have now, hrrrm...

Farros would be a good candidate with skald and all, but one doesn't EAT the princesses in the manner that Pyrtechon proposes.  They woo them with song and wine and pillow talk, baby.  Especially if their fathers bestowed them with huge tracts of land!
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: EdTheKet on October 18, 2010, 01:27:35 PM
Quote from: EdTheKet
This became a long thread!

I looked at the text in question and can see where it doesn't match how we're portraying the extent of the number of people speaking draconic, it being taught and all that.
I'll have it remedied in the near future. However, there's also some points I have to talk to Leanthar about and he's out until the end of the week so I'll get back to this later and cover it all in one go (I hope, if not you're all vocal enough to ask ;) ).

Have not forgotten this, combining this with the recent talk about the Risen.
Title: Re: Use of Draconic Language
Post by: EdTheKet on November 21, 2010, 07:41:04 AM
Please see LORE: Lucinda: Sects (http://lore.layonara.com/Lucinda:%20Sects) for updated Dragonlinks.

Please also note that this page: LORE: Languages of Layonara (http://lore.layonara.com/Languages%20of%20Layonara#Draconic)   has not been changed and the draconic language as it is described there is how it should be portrayed.

Hope this clarifies.
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