The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: jrizz on February 05, 2011, 04:33:49 PM
-
Any ideas on dealing with the challenge of a small player population and the amount of play time lost trying to get a party together to RP/bash/do anything?
I get an hour or two here and there, and often lose 45 to 60 mins just trying to get everyone in one place and to some starting point. The major chunk of this time is just in getting from one place to another. To top it off that time is not even RP opportunity time since all you are trying to do is get as fast as you can from point A to point B. It is just totally lost time for everything.
Thoughts folks?
-
maybe having an object that can be purchased, that might not necessarily be something extremely cheap, that can be used when not in combat, but could somehow work as a portable teleport to the housing portal locations (Center, Prantz, Arnax). One time use only, so it would burn upon usage.
-
Sorry about that Jrizz...my fault for getting with you guys so late (I had a crafting addict moment). But it does help to arrange things on the forums, even if its only a few hours away. Or if you tell others how much time you have upfront that might help with scheduling and urgency.
-
The Player events calenda. Is also a good way to get people together with a specific time in mind.
-
@Davidoff this is not about any one time, today just highlighted a common issue.
BTW a sub issue that stems from the same challenge is coming on late when a group is already underway. Happens all the time to many players. The result is that the group has to stop everything and wait or the late player just has to say "well guess I cant play on layo tonight"
For computer games it is more about, when you get some extra time you play. And logging on and needing an hour to get people together shoots a lot of time that could be spent interacting. In short we do not currently have a workaround or solution for the challenge.
-
This has come up before, and really my response is the same to all who have thrown this out.
Come up with something that benefits the casual player (i.e. someone with not a lot of time to play) and which cannot be abused by the player with lots of time who just wants to get to XP/gold/loot/CNR faster, and I'll see what we can do.
Items that enable rapid travel which have to be bought and destroy themselves impact the casual player, who has less time to earn gold and thus has less of it, more than the one with lots of time who has more time to get more gold. As an anti-abuse measure, it falls flat.
This is actually not a new problem, it's just that in the past, there were just more people on who you might be able to RP with or go adventure with. Now there's not. The problem is, of course, the more people opt for going out and bashing, the fewer opportunities there are for people who want a little more RP in their lives, so it's kind of a self-perpetuating problem.
I know this isn't a popular suggestion, but if time is too short to organize a huge run somewhere, hang out and RP. Or go somewhere closer. If you want opportunities to RP while adventuring, then it shouldn't matter so much that you're not getting 200-400XP per kill or raking in a few thousand in gold. Go to Haven and try it without fully buffing (if your levels support such folly), go somewhere you've not gone in a while. Sit around and talk about the plot. These are just some alternatives, of course.
Like I said, if someone could work up something viable, I'm all ears.
-
This has come up before, and really my response is the same to all who have thrown this out.
This is actually not a new problem, it's just that in the past, there were just more people on who you might be able to RP with or go adventure with. Now there's not. The problem is, of course, the more people opt for going out and bashing, the fewer opportunities there are for people who want a little more RP in their lives, so it's kind of a self-perpetuating problem.
Yes I know this has come up in the past. The current challenge is that the opportunities to get together (for anything RP/Bashing/whatever) are much less due to the smaller size of the community not due to more bashing and less RPing going on. I would say there is more RPing and less bashing happening on layo now more then ever but once again the smaller size of the player base and the dispersal (going to their homes, shops, temples, crating halls, CNR gathering) of players after they do manage to get together makes it a burden to reassemble.
Of course I understand the issue of abuse, but as I have said many times in the past when this is brought up as a reason not to do something that would benefit the majority of the community, that is not a good reason not to do it. Truly right now we just dont have many of those kinds of players left, maybe none. It seems to me that the current player based operates well within the current rules.
Still we dont want to open the door to temptation. So Dorg's challenge is how can we put something in place that wont be abused?
Do we have a teleport item that has some cost to recharge (true, craft, something that promotes RP) and to have that item you must sign an agreement of non-abuse? Just a thought.
-
Do we have a teleport item that has some cost to recharge (true, craft, something that promotes RP) and to have that item you must sign an agreement of non-abuse? Just a thought.
Have? No. Can make? Of course. But again, requiring gold or crafting or some other material or immaterial exchange impacts those with the least amount of time much more. I'll give you the best example I can think of. My characters presently have about zero income on average. That's right, zero. So how often could one of them afford to use something like this, do you think? Secondarily, what craft would you choose, and how would you make it accessible to everyone without it being prone to mass-production?
As for agreements, that's one more thing to police. I'd kind of not like to have to watch people that closely.
As for the kind of player that's left, consider that those who would rather RP than go bashing every time have stopped bothering to log in, or log in infrequently because people are scattered and/or are off bashing. About the only way to really solve that from the admin/dev side of things is to shrink the size of the world AND make bashing less profitable.
Players actually have greater power for change here, but it involves breaking patterns and old habits.
But this is going off on a tangent. ;)
-
Ive always love Layo for its RP. Ive never found anything like it since being here. Ive had times at my keyboard where I was so into RP that I was in tears, hands shaking and literally unable to type. But, the gameplay side of Layo and myself just drifted too far apart to make it my permanant home anymore. RL does not allow me to put in 6 to 12 hours a day in game.
I wish I knew of a way to find that balance between the RP'er and the Basher. Between the causal player who likes to bash or RP or any mix...for 2 hours a couple times a week ...... and the guy who gets up in the morning fires up the game and doesnt leave his chair accept for bathroom breaks and refills of Mt Dew all day... then starts all over again in the Morning. (sounds like me about 6 years ago LOL)
How are the other guys doing it? (the other guys being the big MMO guys) They seem to have a pretty good grasp on the bashing and crafting part of things... but I have yet to find RP ANYWHERE that rivals what I've experienced in Layonara.... who among you can say something you're character did in Everquest (1 or 2) WoW, LOTRO, etc... made any kind of change in or to that game world!? How many peoples characters have influenced Layonara over its lifetime thus far, and continuing to influence how the world is?
I continue to try and think of ways how to make Layo "friendly" to a broader group including myself at this point. But I guess I kind of take a step back and think... well this is what "I" want.... but what will it do to the place? Does this need to become another WoW just so I can play here again? That would be truly tragic. Like watching someone playing heval metal on a Stratovarios (SP) ... and yes im sure that's been done. :P
My last thought.... their is a system in place right now allowing certain classes to "call home". Like it or not...hidden behind RP and sometimes not, this system is already being abused. Maybe that sytem should be opened up for "X" amount of time to everyone. See how it goes and go back to the way it was, keep it for all, or continue to tweak it further. You know... gotta take that step to know right?
Yeah I should go back and remove all but the last paragraph that actually deals directly with the issue of the OP... but well I wanted to unload and there ya go! ;)
G-452
-
It seems to me the best way to do this is to create an item that doesn't necessarily destroy itself, but that has a really long cooldown, say usable once a week. The casual player without much time isn't affected much by a week cooldown because he doesn't get on to play much anyway, so he'll just save his quick-port for that one time he really wants to schedule a trip. Meanwhile, your hardcore gamer still can't possess multiple of the item, and still can only use it once a week. Sure, he probably won't ever miss his chance to use the item, but is it egregious abuse? Well, that's for someone more qualified to decide.
It's very difficult to create an item that rewards casual players over hardcore players. If you could create a cooldown timer that only counts down when the player is not logged in, then you might come very close, though! Then you'd have more often use by casual gamers and less often use for hardcore gamers.
So in short, maybe it could be one item, non-tradeable and all that jazz, that lets you have some sort of fast travel and/or return on a really long cool down. Personally, I think it should be a fast return to bindpoint. That would also solve many cases where people need GM assistance getting unstuck such as random map teleports to inaccessible areas and such. Though I guess a quick-port item could do that too. (And does it really matter if a player uses it on something like that? Then that's their use for the week or whatever.)
-
I think there was a ring on one of the NWN 1 modules that had a pair or mate. (i.e. two identical rings) You could use that ring once per rest to transport you to the wearer of the other ring.
So two characters decide to bind their rings to each other and they can teleport/transport to that person and that person only were ever they may be.
This could help with grouping if you have a fellow character that you normally rp/bash/mixture of both with that is out with a group.
As far as exploits, they are still there ofcourse, but I think they are minimized in that the person you bind your ring with is usually with you if your harvesting cnr/loot/items etc.
Anyways not totally thought through, but thought I'd toss it out there.
-
Any ideas on dealing with the challenge of a small player population and the amount of play time lost trying to get a party together to RP/bash/do anything?
I get an hour or two here and there, and often lose 45 to 60 mins just trying to get everyone in one place and to some starting point. The major chunk of this time is just in getting from one place to another. To top it off that time is not even RP opportunity time since all you are trying to do is get as fast as you can from point A to point B. It is just totally lost time for everything.
Thoughts folks?
Balder's Gate had the overland map. Layonara has always looked to me like it was laid out like Balder's Gate, sans the overland map facility.
Howabout something that would let you port to any of the settlement centers (once you had visited them the first time), and then head out from there?
-
Balder's Gate had the overland map. Layonara has always looked to me like it was laid out like Balder's Gate, sans the overland map facility.
Howabout something that would let you port to any of the settlement centers (once you had visited them the first time), and then head out from there?
Settlement centers being cities, towns, forts, castles?
Now that would go a long way. Rocking good suggestion.
-
Or maybe instead of cites...maybe bind stones that you have visited. It wouldnt be as many places but you could rp that your soul was bound there at one time.
Another thought maybe you could make the item unusable if your underground, in a crypt/structure to avoid exploits.
-
How about just expanding the system that already exists? Adding a few more locations to the housing teleports would certainly cut down on a lot of time spent running, for example
Mistone: Add Haven
Alindor: Add Fort Homestead
Dregar: Add Audira or North Fort
Belinara: Add Hilm Castle
Tilmar: Add Creedo or Huangjin
This way these would be as available to everyone, no matter if they play a lot or a little. The locations are just suggestions, so could totally be changed to suit (epecially Hilm Castle given current Plot events).
-
How about just expanding the system that already exists? Adding a few more locations to the housing teleports would certainly cut down on a lot of time spent running, for example
Mistone: Add Haven
Alindor: Add Fort Homestead
Dregar: Add Audira or North Fort
Belinara: Add Hilm Castle
Tilmar: Add Creedo or Huangjin
This way these would be as available to everyone, no matter if they play a lot or a little. The locations are just suggestions, so could totally be changed to suit (epecially Hilm Castle given current Plot events).
Huangjin already has a portal. Haven might be a good idea. There are IC reasons we probably shouldn't want one in Audira or North Fort right now, but depending on the outcome of the Dragonstorm Campaign, adding one at Hilm Castle to link it to Blackford would not be too bad. The is already a portal there, but you could change it so that it has 2 different portal options.
(my 2 cents)
-
could even have a short, contained set of one-off quests lead by the Lucindite Church (hint: Connor) to "discover" these portal links, and if any of the quests are unsuccessful, well, we have no one but ourselves to blame - but it makes the actual portal usage fit with the world, and not just dues ex machina.
-
I have a couple thoughts on the matter:
First off, I like the idea of a rechargeable personal teleport to one of the population centers. I think it should recharge after a certain amount of logged off time, say 72 hours logged off. Also, to minimize abuse, it should not allow you to use it in areas tagged as 'underground', to prevent a quick escape from the Deep after getting all those emeralds.
The other half of the problem is finding a group. I've often logged in and been the only one on the server, or close to it. I don't want to have to sit around Center waiting for someone else to log in, and I don't want to be watching the status reports for when someone logs in. I suggest an item, which when used sets a flag for you of 'looking for group', and informs you of any other players on doing the same. That way, you know who's available quickly, and if you're available, others know that immediately. You're free to go about your business, and when someone else shows up looking for a group, they see you're looking too and can contact you to arrange a rendezvous. This flag should clear after an hour or upon logging out, to avoid the problem of someone forgetting to change their status.
Just my two cents...
-
Maybe just make a swift travel carriage system, a bit like the boats. That would cost tickets and would take you to some cities that are closer to the big rallying points that people tend to go venturing out to.
-
I think Shiokara is on the right track here.
1 item that everyone has at creation - and is given to everyone already created.
Said item will have a 1 use port to "X" with a RL 3 day or longer timer on it. Though IMO 5 days is too long. The item should have NO limitation as to where it can be used... accept it CAN NOT be used in combat!
If that can be done inside NWN I'd say give this a trial period. Why not limit it so people dont "abuse" it in the deep as an example.. The whole idea of the item is to allow casual players the rare chance to get to these places, so if such restrictions are put on it... dont bother making it. LOL If Emeralds are the goal.... from my experience you are looking at giving at least a 3 hour (ONE WAY) commitment to a well oiled group doing light RP just to get 1 crack at Emeralds. The idea is to allow the casual player chances to get to these places.... so that's why the 3 day cooldown comes into play for the hardcore peeps. As it stands now... NOTHING is stopping a group of mid 20's from going to get Emeralds once a day every day.... so the above system if they choose to "call home" already slows them down a TON.
What might happen? People will just not play, or not play that character when on a cooldown. More people will get a chance to experience places that used to take 6 hour or longer round trips... cause now they can be done in 2 to 4 hours... that sounds like a good thing to me. Yes more Emeralds, Mithril and other high end CNR will be finding its way to crafters and to the markets.... well... that is a whole different can of worms that I wont go into (yet) :)
-
How about just expanding the system that already exists? Adding a few more locations to the housing teleports would certainly cut down on a lot of time spent running, for example
Mistone: Add Haven
Alindor: Add Fort Homestead
Dregar: Add Audira or North Fort
Belinara: Add Hilm Castle
Tilmar: Add Creedo or Huangjin
This way these would be as available to everyone, no matter if they play a lot or a little. The locations are just suggestions, so could totally be changed to suit (epecially Hilm Castle given current Plot events).
Another low impact high value idea! Adding to the list of where portals can go and adding multi-directional portals to those locations would be a great way to cut down on the time it takes to get a group in one place.
-
from my experience you are looking at giving at least a 3 hour (ONE WAY) commitment to a well oiled group doing light RP just to get 1 crack at Emeralds.
A great point in the middle of a great post!
The trip itself from the time you get a group together, say at Hlim or Dun Lake, is 3 hours long. This does not take into account the time it takes just to get the people together. That is another hour or so added to the over all time. Yes I know you can set a date on the calendar and gather a group OFF LINE (kind of defeats the whole on line game thing :P ) to meet at some time to go. But what about the player that logged on late, or was out ding something else and still needed to get to the starting point. The game time to get t a location is still lost play time even if it is a planned event.
-
Maybe just make a swift travel carriage system, a bit like the boats. That would cost tickets and would take you to some cities that are closer to the big rallying points that people tend to go venturing out to.
played on a server with this, it was very cool. It even had a chance of the carriage getting attacked part of the way there :)
-
It's worth pointing out that all of our bi-directional portals cost coin to use, to the tune of 300 True. Any new bidirectional portals would likely carry a similar burden.
A "rapid carriage" system or whatever you want to call it would cost money as well, just as the ships and portals do. These, again, disproportionately impact the casual player.
"But why not just make it all free, Dorg?"
Because it's the balance struck between RP and more active forms of play. If we enable free and extremely accessible rapid travel everywhere, then distance has no meaning. RP about distances is pretty shaky sometimes anyway, and there's no reason to make it worse. *winks*
As another point of interest, trips into the Deep to get Emeralds or Mithril are supposed to take 3 hours or more. This is by design. If we make the trip quicker, then I'd probably reduce the amount of resources available. Trade-offs!
As has been hinted, there's already a misuse of some of our systems that's become more-or-less "accepted" practice. Perhaps that's my fault in some ways, but it's also behavioral. I might be willing to bend a little more if, for example, I didn't see such widespread misuse of spells like Greater Sanctuary. You know who you are. ;)
And just so you don't think I'm all "no" today, I have been reading and thinking. So far, I've found a suggestion or two that might be workable. But keep talking!
And remember, this is intended to be an RP-oriented server, so now and then when you have trouble assembling a group, instead of orbiting Fort Miritrix, the Great Forest and the Deep, how about hanging out in Center and see what comes of it?
-
Quote from Dorg:
"As another point of interest, trips into the Deep to get Emeralds or Mithril are supposed to take 3 hours or more. This is by design. If we make the trip quicker, then I'd probably reduce the amount of resources available. Trade-offs!"
I've never been able to make this trip faster than 5 hours and it's usually more like 6-8 hours. I think a reduced amount of CNR for a shorter trip would be a good thing overall.
-
3 hours?! Please teach me how. LOL :D I've lost plenty of beauty sleep on The Deep trips. With three hours, we are only able to get to the rubies and back safely!
P.S. G-Sanc is bugged too. Many people have lost SS due to its malfunction. It's a risk to use it, so I see it was a fair exchange in certain circumstance.
-
A "rapid carriage" system or whatever you want to call it would cost money as well, just as the ships and portals do. These, again, disproportionately impact the casual player.
Forgive me Dorg, but I pointed it out myself that it should cost like the boats.
That being said, a 48 gp (or what ever it is now) tickets is really not likely to impact a casual player that much. Need to go there? go kill two or three gobos out of Hempstead and you're ready to go. ;)
So yeah even if there was a similar price to the carriage tickets (or what ever would be the system if taken) as the boat, it's really not a deal breaker. Unless of course you go out to make it a high price for a similar system that's already in game. If I'm not mistaken, the boat script could be applied to any npc (the dialogue might need to be changed to reflect that's it's not by boat transport) with a different set of destinations, still requires the same tickets that you would purchase. So basically you already have that system in game, that only needs the script to be applied to an other npc, with new destinations, no need for a complete new script or system. Wrong?
3 hours?! Please teach me how. LOL :D I've lost plenty of beauty sleep on The Deep trips. With three hours, we are only able to get to the rubies and back safely!
P.S. G-Sanc is bugged too. Many people have lost SS due to its malfunction. It's a risk to use it, so I see it was a fair exchange in certain circumstance.
You got your answer there, you went for rubies and tried for the emeralds too, who are not in the same directions. If you just went for the emeralds, the trip is quicker. But still not really 3 hours, closer to it though.
-
Forgive me Dorg, but I pointed it out myself that it should cost like the boats.
That being said, a 48 gp (or what ever it is now) tickets is really not likely to impact a casual player that much. Need to go there? go kill two or three gobos out of Hempstead and you're ready to go. ;)
So yeah even if there was a similar price to the carriage tickets (or what ever would be the system if taken) as the boat, it's really not a deal breaker. Unless of course you go out to make it a high price for a similar system that's already in game. If I'm not mistaken, the boat script could be applied to any npc (the dialogue might need to be changed to reflect that's it's not by boat transport) with a different set of destinations, still requires the same tickets that you would purchase. So basically you already have that system in game, that only needs the script to be applied to an other npc, with new destinations, no need for a complete new script or system. Wrong?
I know what can be done. I know how it can be done. That's hardly the point, and I was never saying it couldn't be done. One "ticket" would not be such a huge thing, no, but think about this for a moment. How does the boat system work? Are you able to sail directly from say...Port Hempstead to Arnax? No, you're not. Even if we had more interconnections between ports, you're still looking at several tickets each direction.
So it's not, nor has it been a matter of if it can be done and whether we can just reuse our current systems. It can, and we could. It's a matter of whether we should do that, and as a strongly casual player (not by choice) who doesn't really like the dubious RP of killing a few gobbos (which don't reside outside of Port Hempstead, by the way ;) ) or kobolds (which do reside outside of Port Hempstead) for boat fare, I have generally strong reservations about adding any convenience system that more negatively impacts the causal player.
So you might say, "But Dorg, the existing boat system does this as well." but notice I said "convenience". The existing boat system is a necessity for traveling between continents and islands. There is a subtle but important difference.
And so, just to be clear, I am not nor have I been arguing that something can't be done in terms of travel. I'm trying to give everyone a idea of what sorts of issues I consider when adding or adjusting systems. I am purposefully trying to steer clear of saying "No we can't do this," or "That won't work," to avoid this very sort of response.
----------
In my observations, I have noted that the more ways you have to get people away from somewhere, the less motivation and reason there is for people to gather anywhere. People scatter to the winds and wonder why they can't find anyone. People log on to find a group or find RP, and they can't because the people who are on are orbiting around the "high-paying" locations (Northern Belinara, Thunder Peaks/Thunder Valley, and so on). We made Center, in part, to help facilitate meeting and grouping. It has almost everything the old Hlint had, that bit of nostalgia that so many said they wanted back. We specifically kept from putting an outbound portal of any sort in Center for this very reason: to make it a point for collecting, not just another stepping stone on the way to somewhere else.
In the days of Hlint, if there wasn't time for a 5+ hour run to the Deep, people didn't go, or they went somewhere else...or they hung out and RPed. I suppose it's nostalgia to a certain extent, but isn't that in part why so many people asked for a Hlint-like starting area?
----------
Anyway, tangent over. Please return to your regularly-scheduled discussion. :)
-
Yep and I was pleased to be able to Rp for an hour or so (that's all the time we had I think) in center :) nice going there.
My point wasn't to critisize :) just bringing up the option that would probably have the least amount of work to be done with.
Gobos.. kobold.. they're all small and stinky to me! :)
-
My point wasn't to critisize :) just bringing up the option that would probably have the least amount of work to be done with.
Actually, while it would take no extra coding potentially, setting up a network of caravan destinations is actually a fair amount of busy work and actually more than some of the other options I'm considering.
-
Well it would be less than coming up with a whole new script :D
-
Depends on the script!
-
I have the fix.
Just make a corathite and you won't have anyone to travel with. Hence no need to get anywhere in a hurry!
-
I have the fix.
Just make a corathite and you won't have anyone to travel with. Hence no need to get anywhere in a hurry!
LOL. Totally!:D
-
Pbb. Corathites don't bother Steel at all. It's your Australian timezones that kill me. :p