This was a question that came into my head based on some other threads I've been reading.
What is the difference between a evil/lawful Rofi and a good/lawful Rofi? My take on it would be they both are bound to uphold the laws of the territory because upholding laws is their highest calling. For example, if they were in a evil city run by the evil king and the king's law was "whatever I say it is" and the king decided that every first born was to be sacraficed to his glory...then I guess both the G/L and E/L Rofi would accept this as proper?
Maybe the G/L Rofi might not agree with the law, but would not oppose it?
Or would the G/L Rofi disagree with the law, but follow it, and try to lobby to have it changed?
Or would the G/L Rofi not follow this law at all because it is evil and he doesn't recognize it as law?
Just wondering...thanks
Another form of LE is those who follow a strict code but choose to not wait for the established law of the land to act because it may be "too slow" or "too ineffective" because the established law may not punish as severely as the person would like. These may be gang leaders or vigilantes. With Vigilantes, the difference between a chaotic vigilante and a lawful one is their method and purpose. A lawful evil vigilante may have decided that a certain group of people or type of people is a problem. It may be that a band of brigands continuously attack people on a certain road. The lawful evil vigilante may decide that for the "greater good" he will hunt down and brutally kill every single one of them, securing the road for himself so that he can now ensure that passage through the road is safe- with due respect and tribute to the one who has secured it of course.
Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice.
Respects honor and self-discipline. Has no time for the law.
It even seems that a lawful evil Rofie is a contradiction. Under Lore as mentioned above it says they should hold the law above all else but under Lore for lawful evil it says that:
Quote:
Respects honor and self-discipline. Has no time for the law.
Aid others whenever and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and does not make way for acts of evil.
Also the religion is an organization with ranks and leaders and followers and here is also where you'd see good and evil come to play. LE could be someone who has their eye on rising to the top of the ranks as quickly as possible and will climb over everyone else to do it (in a way that doesn't actually break laws, but is still very selfish.) Where maybe LG doesn't seek power at all and always works as part of a team and puts others before them.
You set a Rofirenite loose in a corrupt city who no doubt have laws or atleast fronts of laws, I seriously doubt he would care about them. His god's decree comes first.
Like with Vehl, if they reject the Gold, are known for corruption and whatever else, and they place some law down that doesnt coincide with what Rofirenite and the other gods laid out, they arent going to care
So if you can reasonably argue the mentality or reasoning behind whatever action your character makes, well you should be alright.
It seems that any Lawful Rofie (G,N, or E) would be obligated to uphold the "Law of Land" (whether that be Rael, Brelin, etc).
That is their diety's calling above all else. The purpose of this is to protect order and prevent chaos.
The character's personal code/law has no bearing in the decision...
... because Law of the Land that has been put in place to promote stability in that particular area.
If they were to fight or disobey the Law of the Land and not uphold it, they would be instigating chaos and unrest...the greatest sin a Rofie can commit.
The L/G or L/N might have issues with an Evil dictatorship, but they would still have to uphold the law.
They could try to change the law through legal and civil appeals/amemdments/petitions, but that would be about it.
When the Rofie church said a while back that it was supporting Rael's war against the dark elf invasion (http://forums.layonara.com/rumour-has/281411-rofireinites-support-rael.html), they didn't just ask L/E Rofies to help Rael, they meant all Rofies.
Its difficult to have a hard and fast answer on this question I think.
Seems there are three sources of law: 1) Divine; 2) Government; 3) Personal Code.
For a Rofie it seems that law from Government should trump/be stronger than law from a personal code.
Divine Law, especially for a paladin or cleric, do not conflict with Government as Lore states that Rofireinites shall:QuoteHold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice.
A Lawful/Good Rofi would be in quite a pickle if he had to choose between obeying a law he deemed bad/evil.
If he chose to break the law he would be disobeying his divine calling to "Hold the law above all else".
"The Rofireinites are almost always portrayed as a bunch of Lawful Stupid guys who follow whatever rules are in front of them, which is a shame."
I think that might be just a slight over exaggeration.
In Vehl the idea was to be the same but its proven to be more difficult than anyone could imagine. Lord Kezed has resisted all attempts by the Rofireinite heirarchy to merge their ideas onto his governing of the city despite years and years of ongoing attempts. While they still do a lot of good there it really is a point of light in an otherwise disparate chaotic darkness. And for those people who can be shown that point of light the Rofireinites realise it they close up shop and move somewhere else would be to betray those who can be saved or who can try and better themselves. Vehl is a tough nut to crack and may never crack, but someone has to try right?
If a LG High Justicier ever came to run the temple here things might get a bit different. They would be more forceful in their demands for change and might even condone acts that shift the balance of power to someone more suited to the goals of the church. However to my knowledge LE members of the Rofi faith are not as common as other types which makes this scenario fairly unlikely in the future.
Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order.
This is what I was saying before about an Evil Rofireinite basically just being a LN guy having a bad day. You can't honor Rofirein's dogma and do the usual Evil stuff. It's a very, very light-weight Evil.
In Layonara you have to play your alignment correctly. If you are evil you have to do the usual evil stuff. I concurr with you that it is impossible to play a L/E Rofireinite unless you bend the rules and play instead a LN alignment. Playing a certain deity does not give you justification for playing outside your alignment which is why I said its a contradiction. Once you water down evil and play it very light you are no longer playing evil but something else.
The courts in Prantz are actually Rael's courts, with Rofireinite observers. So there is no Rofireinite judge to sentence anyone in Prantz.
'lawful' and or 'good'principles. I had this incorrect view that Rofies had to push back their moral compass, and only follow the law of the land.
I still see a potential problem if you let Rofies say we only follow "good" laws or laws that are in line with the "Divine Law". It says to everyone, the common man and Rofies alike, if you don't like a law...
... and you think its in conflict with "Divine Law" you don't have to follow it.
How is the average joe supposed to know which laws to follow, and how to nit-pick these local laws?
The line is not clear and leaves open alot of ambiguity for the common man.
When you say that "Divine Law" is over the "Law of the Land" you undercut the Law of the Land and those goverment's ability to keep the peace.
You are a paragon of virtue and honor. Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order. Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice. Without the order of law, chaos would reign and the world would descend into dark times where Pyrtechon would thrive. Extend honor to all--even your foes. Aid others whenever and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and does not make way for acts of evil. The common people are the strongest force in bringing order and prosperity to all. We must protect them.
You are a paragon of virtue and honorcan you create an LE character?
Hmm, this may be going back over broken ground again, but both both LG and LE would by alignment have to follow the law; you cannot just follow "good" laws and ignore the "evil" laws.
My question was not so much about this though as to how, when the Lore for Rofireinites was as posted can you create an LE character?
In terms of Vehl, Rofireinites have made some leeway with the people on the streets. Its not as 'bad' as it once was nor as bad as it 'could be'. So maybe, if nothing else, the Rofireinite presence in Fort Vehl has prevented it from becoming an openly held Corathite stronghold. Then isn't that a big victory in the scheme of things?
Also, no Rofireinite player to my knowledge in recent times apart from one has tried to do anything about the status quo in Vehl.
I got the information about Rofirein justices administering the Rael law from this Lore passage:
The citadel of Rofirein (http://lore.layonara.com/Rael%20Kingdom:%20Government)governs trials, sentencing, and handles the paperwork for both ingoing prisoners and the rare outgoing reformed lawbreaker.
To this man, he is a paragon of virtue and honor. He's hunting the enemy of the city's order. But he'll go to any lengths to accomplish his goal, and even though he may catch someone that is merely associated with the gangs that he hunts, and that the person may not have performed the action personally, he will see that they all get the harshest penalty for their crime- death. It's the method of cutting out the entire problem, and anything else that the problem may possibly have touched that makes him evil. It's his methods. He isn't doing anything illegal.
Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice. Without the order of law, chaos would reign and the world would descend into dark times where Pyrtechon would thrive.
He won't go to any lengths because he won't break the law. He won't lie on a report or in court because that would be to dishonor himself before Rofirein. He won't commit murder. He knows he's not the executioner. He won't break into anyone's property; that would be illegal. He can't even be sure they get the punishment he wants because he's not the judge. Otherwise, he pursues his case, sets stakeouts, makes arrests... just like all the other Rofies.
What is the difference between a evil/lawful Rofi and a good/lawful Rofi?
might simply ignore certain information that might create an inconsistency that the opposition might use to get the accused off the hook.
a paragon of virtue and honor. Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order.
Where is the honor and justice in lying? What makes the thug in gold better than the thug in black from the commoner's perspective? Aren't the thugs in black more powerful than the thugs in gold in Vehl, anyway?
He has managed to get to a position of judge in a place that has him presiding as the main judge for the region, so all cases come through him. In the course of a week he has the following criminals come through and these are the punishments given:
Case #1- murder: Penalty- death
Case #2- assault: Penalty- death
Case #3- mugged someone in the street and stole all of their belongings: Penalty- death
Case #4- a man beat his wife because he caught her cheating. Penalty- Husband got a day in the stocks, wife was put to death for adultery.
Case #5- Teenager stole food because she was hungry: Penalty- cut off hand
Case #6- Vigilante who was working in the streets, killing thugs was caught and brought to trial: Penalty- 20 gp fine.
Was any law broken? No
several years of imprisonment
Vigilante who was working in the streets, killing thugs was caught and brought to trial: Penalty- 20 gp fine.Based on the Laws of Layonara the punishment for murder is death not 20 true.
but I doubt it's anywhere close to being capable of correctly predict every single action in life, like you seem close to be expecting.
To me, it's not about anyone expecting any actions set out and predicted. No one wants a handbook of exactly what their character is expected to do. "What does the LN character do?" was not asked to get a writeup, but for comparison to the examples of a LE... and to illustrate that LE Rofireinite behavior often falls into the harsh side of LN - not "evil" enough for evil. Personally, all of the specific arguments about what evil might be able to get away with only say to me, "This is a gray interpretation of LN, because LN is not black and white, and sometimes justice is harsh."
There are only 9 alignments, and an enormous array of concepts that fall within them, as you say. I agree. That's actually why I dislike the notion of LE Rofireinites - I feel like it must be so specific, so restrained, that it is no longer a viable alignment choice. It almost has to be laid out well in advance in order to not drift away from law or be too weak for evil, or at any point let emotion get in the way of justice. "If you need to have a complete written set of instructions of how you might be able to pull something off, it is no longer a good option for open creation."
Additionally, I don't think making arguments based on writeups and expectations and observing where they do and do not make sense or contradict should be lumped together as speaking out of passion, which to me implies irrationality. Sometimes things make sense, sometimes they don't. Trying desperately to shove them in because an old rule from a different game says they should be allowed is not more reasonable than attempting to point out things that may need to be corrected. For a long time Rofirein did not allow LE priests (as several here remember, I know), and it was opened up just as adding a couple extra letters on a page; it has been awkward ever since. It just hasn't really gotten any better.
What's lying?
might simply ignore certain information that might create an inconsistency that the opposition might use to get the accused off the hook.
Going with the context you yourself use, would a paragon of virtue and honor use evidence he's not 100% sure about? Would he use it, and let the court decide whether it is admissable or not? If the court would admit it, and the doubt would still be lingering, would it still have been a good act? There's no yes or no, black or white in this.
By Filatus:
It is this:
All exculpatory (favorable against the accused) evidence must be disclosed and if you don't then its unethical, unjust and untruthful and against Divine Law. To not tell a truth is the same thing as telling an untruth.
You are never 100% sure about anything, but you need to have a good faith basis for presenting any arguments. If you know evidence you subit to a court was planted on the defendant...that's not good faith. If you know an admission you got from a defendant was coerced out of duress...that's not good faith. If you make an argument to the court knowing the defense can not rebut because you failed to give them exculpatory evidence..that's not good faith.
There really is no room for evil when it comes to "Divine Law"...they are in opposites.
Going with the context you yourself use, would a paragon of virtue and honor use evidence he's not 100% sure about? Would he use it, and let the court decide whether it is admissable or not? If the court would admit it, and the doubt would still be lingering, would it still have been a good act? There's no yes or no, black or white in this.
But at the same time you ask in this thread to define a lawful neutral Rofi in a few words
If you look at the world we ourselves live in, you'll find that notions of virtue, honor and order are not neatly defined concepts. They're actually very ill defined concepts that are often something you aspire to be, rather than simply are. You'll find honor has a completely different meaning if you ask a Voraxite, and then a Rofirinite. So too, do these shades of grey exist within the Rofirinite faith. because in the end, they are only words.
And to give weight to your case, you give me two lobsided examples. My whole point is that we shouldn't be looking at the extremes in this. Doesn't a prosecutor need to establish a motive in front of the court? If a prosecutor ends up with say two possible motives for a crime, and they both seem equally plausible, is it against Rofiriein's dogma, to choose the one that probably carries a harsher penalty?
Would a Rofirinite make his case based on the motive that carries a less harsh penalty with it, because its preferable over risking an unjust penalty? Or would he go for the other motive, thinking it a greater crime if the punishment was less than what would be just in Rofirein's eyes?
To say you can't get a follower of Rofirenite who is evil is silly.
They arent all paladins (not even clerics are paladins), they arent all perfect, they arent all kind or mostly indifferent to good and evil, some are malicious, some are secretly bloodthirsty, some may be ruthless in achieving the desires of their church and god.. and some may be on the verge of getting a divine kick up the backside out of their faith for being corrupt.
Lies and cheats those not worthy of his respect.
May or may not kill an unarmed foe.
Never kill an innocent but will harm, harass or kidnap.
Has no time for the law.
May take dirty money.
paragon of virtue and honor.
Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order.
Hold the law above all else at any cost
Without the order of law, chaos would reign and the world would descend into dark times
Extend honor to all--even your foes.
Aid others whenever and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and does not make way for acts of evil
Thats why I have said your alignment should show, but you should not be expected to display its characteristics all the time and ignore the context of its display just so you are proving to people watching "hey look this character so obviously evil",. IF you designed a character to BE that way then good on you, if you want them to be subtle, well then do it that way. a character who enforces and obeys the law, but is malicious, cruel or whatever personally is not TN. That is set pattern which should show whenever the oppurtunity presents itself and its appropriate (if the player likes his character concept, it will probably). Just like a serial killer is liable only to display it when its safe to do so (not for the victim).
"You are a paragon of virtue and honor" and do not make way for acts of evil.If you are evil, then at some point YOU will make acts of evil. Making acts of evil is in direct contradiction to Rofireinite dogma/tenets and I can see no way to reconcile this.
Harassing criminalsis not an evil act...its more of a good act.
Prefering to see evil people die, is not an evil ACT, it is a thought/mindset and one I don't see as necesarrily being evil.
Evil: Orders the siege of the cultist hideout after calling for surrender, once its obviously not responded to, he blanket-labels all cultists as resisting arrest, worshippers of evil gods and assaulting officers and gives a kill-on-sight order. His men are likely better trained and equipped and will cut down all in their path unless they drop weapons, fall to their knees and beg for their lives.
Those might be spared (meaning minimal risk to the guards and rofies. Any prisoners taken from the wounded or surrounded will all be given the maximum sentance that the law allows (likely death), nevermind who had a choice or who didnt; they are all evil and must be purged for the safety of good, decent folk.
It may even be that the Inquistor takes no prisoners and plays judge/jury/executioner, deeming them too dangerous and insane to transport for trial and may value the lives of the 'good guys' over the enemy, even if its within their duties to risk themselves to capture people alive; thus summary field executions for everyone in the evil cult, captive or rebel, brain-washed or faithful.
Law is satisfied, evil is done, but honour and virtue may still be displayed if prisoners are taken but later executed after trial, as unarmed men werent killed and they WERE given a chance to surrender before the attack. Note honour and virtue aren't -always- the same as goodness.
a. Moral excellence and righteousness; goodnessHow can you be and act evil and still be in line with this? These same argument hold true if you want an Evil Toranite.
If a rofirenite funded a criminal organization to rise up
Hassling criminals is not always a good act
if a cleric for example is bloodthirsty and gives orders to slay evil-doers (or those he percieves to be and has any excuse to give a lawful order of that kind) because of religeous zeal rather than take equally reasonable and less-bloody or harsh road, arent they evil?
Evil: Orders the siege of the cultist hideout after calling for surrender, once its obviously not responded to, he blanket-labels all cultists as resisting arrest, worshippers of evil gods and assaulting officers and gives a kill-on-sight order. His men are likely better trained and equipped and will cut down all in their path unless they drop weapons, fall to their knees and beg for their lives.
Those might be spared (meaning minimal risk to the guards and rofies. Any prisoners taken from the wounded or surrounded will all be given the maximum sentance that the law allows (likely death), nevermind who had a choice or who didnt; they are all evil and must be purged for the safety of good, decent folk.
It may even be that the Inquistor takes no prisoners and plays judge/jury/executioner, deeming them too dangerous and insane to transport for trial and may value the lives of the 'good guys' over the enemy, even if its within their duties to risk themselves to capture people alive; thus summary field executions for everyone in the evil cult, captive or rebel, brain-washed or faithful.
Law is satisfied, evil is done, but honour and virtue may still be displayed if prisoners are taken but later executed after trial, as unarmed men werent killed and they WERE given a chance to surrender before the attack. Note honour and virtue aren't -always- the same as goodness.
Originally Posted by Dremora
Evil: Orders the siege of the cultist hideout after calling for surrender, once its obviously not responded to, he blanket-labels all cultists as resisting arrest, worshippers of evil gods and assaulting officers and gives a kill-on-sight order. His men are likely better trained and equipped and will cut down all in their path unless they drop weapons, fall to their knees and beg for their lives.
Those might be spared (meaning minimal risk to the guards and rofies. Any prisoners taken from the wounded or surrounded will all be given the maximum sentance that the law allows (likely death), nevermind who had a choice or who didnt; they are all evil and must be purged for the safety of good, decent folk.
It may even be that the Inquistor takes no prisoners and plays judge/jury/executioner, deeming them too dangerous and insane to transport for trial and may value the lives of the 'good guys' over the enemy, even if its within their duties to risk themselves to capture people alive; thus summary field executions for everyone in the evil cult, captive or rebel, brain-washed or faithful.
*puts the broken record back on*
Going into a hostile environment against evil-cultitsts after a surrender is refused and killing some and taking some prisoners is L/E? Sounds more L/G to me (go getem Jennara!).
If playing judge/jury/exectuioner is considered lawful (I doubt it)..well then maybe this is L/E. But also, if the Rofie is ordered to take the evil-cultest hideout and he see's no other way to ensure the safety of his men, and surrender has been refused, I think this is acceptable, but it would be more L/G or L/N...not L/E.
"You are a paragon of virtue and honor. Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order. Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing loved ones or friends to justice. Without the order of law, chaos would reign and the world would descend into dark times where Pyrtechon would thrive. Extend honor to all--even your foes. Aid others whenever and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and does not make way for acts of evil. The common people are the strongest force in bringing order and prosperity to all. We must protect them.
Also, nowhere in Rofirein's dogma does it suggest that one must be brought to court to receive justice, either. If you are a cleric of Rofirein (at protector level or higher), and you see someone break the divine law (cause civil strife, etc.), it is your duty to act upon society's behalf and dispense justice in accordance with the law. If you're in a city/province that requires the criminal be brought before local magistrates and juries to deliberate the man's case, then perhaps you submit to those laws as part of supporting and protecting an already peaceful, civil society. But if you are in the boondocks or a place where no such laws exist, then it is your job, as one who must protect and support the peace of society, to both judge and punish the criminal yourself, and in doing so, teach the man that he must act in accordance with the divine laws that promote societal betterment.
Nowhere in Rofirein's dogma does it say you can't torture or maim or take a child away from its mother all in the name of justice, honor, and the law.
It is expressly not permitted to go forth into the wilderness and dispense judgement and punishment as you see fit.
This is a low blow. No one else's dogma says that, either. We don't have access to the Divine Law because it doesn't actually exist. If we can just assume it doesn't say we can't, then anything goes.
So yeah, pretty much anything goes until such a time as the common law and/or the divine law is posted
The charter of laws is based on the Divine Law.
The Charter of Laws was agreed to by decree by most of the good and nuetral faiths under the Diamonior rule in Dreger centuries ago, along with most of the nations (of the time) that supported 'lawful' and or 'good' organised society. Its a shame this information is not yet widely available as it would help to clarify a lot of things for people about this thread. But we do what we can with what we have.
...scribes made copies of the laws and then sent them to every corner of the empire, to every good aligned faith who had participated...
Now you say, "but the divine law supports all good things! If you honor the divine law, that means you honor what is good." Incorrect. Let me repeat: Incorrect.
Not every kingdom/country even has 'sanctioned judges'? And while you could drag a criminal across kingdoms to see a judge, the crime might not have relevance, not to mention Rofirein's light won't reach the new lands if you uphold the law somewhere else. Also, which thread (yes, I know some folks can't see the Rofir forums)?
And this makes things so much more interesting, don't you think?
Some of us want the order and the structure and the regulation.
What do you all think, will clarity on Rofirien/what he stands for, and the Divine Law (like davidoff suggested), settle it?
If its to promote only good law, then the church may as well join Toran (who will happily uphold law but not at the expense of mercy, compassion and 'right') as a sub-sect of sheriffs (doubt it'll happen).
That Charter would also serve to create a new court
That Charter would also serve to create a new court--the Divine Court. This court would be overseen by the Rofireinties and the Toranites and would be responsible for the maintenance and the refinement and carrying out of the laws and punishments across the empire (and effectively the world) for the next thousand years.
Nowhere in Rofirein's dogma does it say you can't torture or maim or take a child away from its mother all in the name of justice, honor, and the law. "I honor you, my young friend, by peeling the skin from your arm, for with this act, you will forever remember the pain you have caused this society by your actions, and it is honorable to suffer for mistakes made if you learn from them, just as it is honorable for one to teach such as yourself the importance of following the law."
But for THE god of law and order, not so much. It was bad enough before. Openly admitting anything goes makes it so much worse.
From Prantz, he hosted the Congregation of the Principium, which resulted in the formation of the Charter of Laws designed to give the common man a guide to follow for proper legal behavior. Raklin also helped form the Divine Court, overseen at that time by Rofireinties and Toranites, that would be responsible for the maintenance, refinement, and carrying out of laws and punishments across the empire (and effectively the world) for the next thousand years. This time of good emperors and good governance lasted for over 500 years.(my emphasis)
12.Thou art a Paladin of Rofirein, one of his beloved few. Remember this in all that thy do. As one of the few Paladins of the Holy Order of Rofirein, it is your task to root out evil, injustice and tyranny wherever thee may be.(my emphasis)
Don't snap at me for not being a yes-man. Help me. [post=470141]Look[/post] how much like me you were. Tell me what changed your mind from being so opposed. Do you really believe that it makes sense now, even though nothing has changed about the write-up? I would never think less of anyone for simply admitting LE had been tacked on without any significant work or changes done to make it work from the ground up. Just say so. "We know it's a horrible, forced thing, but that's what we've got until we switch over to mantras. We're not going to fix it. Sorry." But to cram and force and twist and insist and pretend like it used to say something different - no, I'm not going to let you debase yourself or insult my intelligence. Don't tell me who I am or what makes me happy.
I don't actually think there is anything wrong with the LE Rofireinites that I have seen, in concept, just felt like... hm, that there are "real" LE characters, and then LE Rofireinites, which are a specific "flavor" of the LN Rofireinite
I have always seen Rofirein as being neutral for a good reason... or a good person in a neutral role, type thing. Benevolent, but committed to neutrality for the sake of order and impartiality.
How can one be following the divine law of a god by puting people in prison for worshiping the very god that gives you that divine law?
Just the situation in Prantz is puzzling and curious for me. A question I posed earlier:
Rofirein must be pretty humble. On its face it appears to be an evil law that the Rofie's are alright with enforcing leading me to believe that "Divine law" is neutral. Its about order and lack of chaos. ALL Rofireinites (even good ones in an evil area) have to follow "Divine Law" above all else and in Prantz this apparently means putining your bro's in prison for openly worshiping Rofirein.
Right? or I'm probably missing something.
Edit: I had to be the one to take this thread to 100, oops Blonde got me :)
Alatriel was acting under instruction, however, so it was someone else I should have been saying, "What the heck just happened?" to. I was pretty taken aback, though, because while I will happily share the blame for the likely locking of this thread in my responses to moderation, I didn't understand the reason for it starting. If anyone appeared to be freaking out, it wasn't any of the players I saw, and I was pretty sure milty would have taken my playful jabs at him in stride.
I think to divine/figure out whether divine Rofie law is good or neutral you have to ask yourself what is the end goal for Rofirein. What is he in the end trying to achieve. Is it Prosperity for all? Is it lack of chaos i.e. Order for its own sake? Is it to protect the common man through good means or is the common man a weapon or tool for some other objective? Or is it simply a power struggle between him and another dragon (Pyrtechon) i.e. if chaos ensues Pyrtechon wins...or something else.
On its face it appears to be an evil law that the Rofie's are alright with enforcing leading me to believe that "Divine law" is neutral. Its about order and lack of chaos. ALL Rofireinites (even good ones in an evil area) have to follow "Divine Law" above all else and in Prantz this apparently means putining your bro's in prison for openly worshiping Rofirein.
What is the difference between a evil/lawful Rofi and a good/lawful Rofi?
With the example of Prantz, I highly doubt there are Rofireinites walking around arresting people. Those are Rael's own guards that enforces his laws within his domain.
And the writeup for the Citadel (http://lore.layonara.com/Rael%20Kingdom%3A%20Government) of Rofirein acting on behalf of Rael is correct. It has evolved into this because of the Rofireinites agreement to recognise Rael as the official ruler of Rael.
I got everything out of my system and took Harlas's advice in the thread, also if you read it carefully you will see that Leanthar was quite specific in what he wanted, I got the message.
This is one of those times where we have to accept what we have at face value, work with it and try to enjoy the game that's been provided for us.
Ultimately I find a lawful good idea kinda boring as Toranites come close to it already though they likely accept NG as good comes before law (which is pretty much what your kinda going for, with slight differences); I'd much prefer impartiality and broadness in the Rofies so they stand apart from that faith more and have some division in their methods (LN primarily, LG and LE as extremeists). It has a sense of irony and I know Gulnyr will probably not like that (dont take offence, im not judging you, im just predicting your reaction from what ive read in your argument) cause it contradicts 'Order' but at the same time, mortals are very unlikely to ALL agree on something and do it the exact same way because we are all individuals and by definition of life, it is formed from chaos as are its physical laws.
Then we say we are going to allow L/E and L/G Rofie characters. Well then, the was I see it played out in game is that Rofie characters will define what they think "Divine Law" is based on their alignment. A L/G Rofie (like Jennara) will go into an evil city, with evil laws (kill the first born to sacrafice to the king) and say "wait" this law is not in accordance with "Divine Law" as she sees Divine Law, and she would oppose that law. However, a L/E Rofie (like Aesthir) will go into the same evil city, with evil laws, and say "nice", I like the way this place is run and this King is my kinda guy and will enforce the law.
Jennara probably epitomizes that side of it and most are very familiar with her life.
The Main point: The over arching goal imo is stability, law and order. The methods are up to the individuals.
Simply put, Pyrtechon puts a Rofie into an almost irrational anger.
Changes by GulnyrFair enough. The Divine Law was exactly what was I was thinking when I wrote that, just forgot to put it in there.
You know the law we live by. And where is it written beyond Camelot live lesser people, people too weak to protect themselves, let them die? Malagant: Other people live by other laws, Arthur. Or is the law of Camelot to rule the entire world. King Arthur: There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. Either what we hold to be right and good and true is right and good and true for all mankind, under God, or we're just another robber tribe. Malagant: Your words are talking you out of peace and into war. King Arthur: There's a peace you only find after war. If that battle must come. I will fight it!
All those with one guy as judge, jury, and executioner are right out, though. That's not just my opinion; apologies to those who can't see Ed's very recent post saying so in the Rofi forum.
You know the movie right? Well I wish I could have found a video clip of the scene but couldn't.
Not sure where this gets us or if it helps, but the scene came to mind when I was thinking about this topic. It's kind of like Maligant is the L/E Rofie that was found out and kicked out of the faith. Now Maligant is questioning Arthur about Camelot Law/Divine Law and Kind Arthur explains it to him.
*shrugs*