The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Eegxeta on November 28, 2011, 05:52:28 PM
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Every cave I've been in was pretty well lit. What is the deal with that? Is it a bug? At night in-game the caves get dark but they are underground so this doesn't make sense. The crypt in center was the only place I found that had that dungeon/cave adventure feel because it was pitch black in there. The fun of exploring dungeons and caves is kind of ruined because there is too much light. Ok yes I play a elf and a dwarf but I also have a human character and while I played him the caves were well lit.
I don't know where exactly I would go to ask about this. Ask a GM seemed to be a good place to start.
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Bear in mind that caves, more often than not, aren't entirely closed to the sky. Gaps in the rock (and the mouth of the cave) let in shafts of light.
Some caves (for example, the Red Light caves near Hlint) are lit by unexplained, magical light sources. Others, populated by various intelligent creatures, are lit by explained magical or mundane light sources; the creatures that live in the caves (in those cases) have to be able to see as well!
Crypts that are still relatively active are generally lit with torches or sconces enchanted with Continual Flame (http://lore.layonara.com/Continual%20Flame) spells for the benefit of visitors (even if restless undead make visitation a risky business). Certain caves and crypts are less well-lit, but they have different occupants and are somewhat off the beaten path.
Hope that helps!
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Also, some of them are, in fact, quite dark.
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I guess what Eegxeta is saying (and forgive me if I have interpreted this incorrectly) is that he/she finds caves/dungeons that are lit are lacking somewhat in atmosphere, in that to much light reduces the overall "feel" of a "supposedly" darkened place and removes some of the feeling of danger from the location that you would get if the place was darkened.
Eegxeta raises an interesting point and some places do in fact have reduced or non-existant lighting which gives them the desired atmosphere, so keep exploring and stay alive long enough to find them out.
The balance between atmosphere and the ability to be able to see 5 foot in front of you is a difficult task to handle though but on reflection, and once you find enough of the darkened areas, perhaps it will be appreciated that being able to see better with the subsequently reduced atmosphere is a small price to pay as opposed to it's opposite where you get creamed and can't even see the monster that did you in.
I hope ;)
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The balance between atmosphere and the ability to be able to see 5 foot in front of you is a difficult task to handle though but on reflection, and once you find enough of the darkened areas, perhaps it will be appreciated that being able to see better with the subsequently reduced atmosphere is a small price to pay as opposed to it's opposite where you get creamed and can't even see the monster that did you in.
There it is right there.
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The balance between atmosphere and the ability to be able to see 5 foot in front of you is a difficult task to handle though but on reflection, and once you find enough of the darkened areas, perhaps it will be appreciated that being able to see better with the subsequently reduced atmosphere is a small price to pay as opposed to it's opposite where you get creamed and can't even see the monster that did you in.
Half of adventuring is being prepared for the adventure so stuff like carry a light source, food, water, healing kits/potions. You can easily fix the 5 foot sight with a portable light source or with a spell which any adventurer with half a brain would have. So I don't see how darkness can be too much of a problem. Exploring caves and dungeons should be challenge to the adventuring ability of someone as well as challenging their combat prowess. What is the point of an adventure without the adventure?
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There are several factors as to why many dungeons and underground areas are well lit. darkstorme listed some which are more IC explanations for some of them. Not all things that live in caves and dungeons are fully adapted to darkness. They need to see too. Whether you accept such reasoning is up to you, but they are, in many cases, valid for explaining why certain places are well-lit.
Xaltotun also touched, correctly I would add, upon some more OOC reasons for less-than-pitch-dark dungeons. When game mechanics are both automatic and unforgiving, as they are in any realtime online computer gaming setting, area/zone/dungeon design becomes part of the balance equation. It's possible to have a deep darkness where the range of any portable light source is shorter than the detection range of any monsters that may be lurking...and the monsters don't care how dark it is.
In tabletop gaming, you can walk into a pitch black dungeon and go turn by turn. In NWN, you can walk into the same dungeon and get assaulted before you even see or hear them coming, causing you to be flat-footed and letting the monsters have essentially a free attack. That sort of "fun" tends to wear off quickly, especially when the difference between living or dying at lower levels can come down to just a few hit points.
As has been mentioned above, there are places across both servers which are darker...some even as dark as we can make it. These areas are intended to be more difficult...and they are. I personally have designed some areas to be darker and in some cases, progressively darker, so I know they exist. I am a big fan of atmosphere and mood in areas, and where it makes sense to do so, I work these things in to the areas I build. As I said above though, this must always be balanced against playability, intent, difficulty and other factors.
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I've also made a cave that is pretty dark, but you also have to look at who you're adventuring with, and realize that sometimes your gear may have light on it without realizing it, so even if the area IS dark, you may be making it lighter just by being there. I have a character that positively glows, and I remember a quote by another character as she stepped away from mine:
"*stops and blinks as she realizes that Daniella WAS the light in her house.*" -Tyra Dragonheart (sorry if the quote wasn't exact... it was something like that)
So, if you're with someone that also glows, that can affect how it may seem as well.
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Half of adventuring is being prepared for the adventure so stuff like carry a light source, food, water, healing kits/potions. You can easily fix the 5 foot sight with a portable light source or with a spell which any adventurer with half a brain would have. So I don't see how darkness can be too much of a problem. Exploring caves and dungeons should be challenge to the adventuring ability of someone as well as challenging their combat prowess. What is the point of an adventure without the adventure?
There's a cave full of spider on central near the river of darkness if I recall the map name well, it's in the sinister forest (where you find some vampires on top. and where the troll central is) That cave even with magical items emitting light, you won't be able to see past 5 feet in front of you. It's filled of spiders and snake. Go spend a few hours there, and then tell us how you liked it in this type of real time/turn based game. You will certainly understand a bit more what dorg is saying.
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There's a cave full of spider on central near the river of darkness if I recall the map name well, it's in the sinister forest (where you find some vampires on top. and where the troll central is) That cave even with magical items emitting light, you won't be able to see past 5 feet in front of you. It's filled of spiders and snake. Go spend a few hours there, and then tell us how you liked it in this type of real time/turn based game. You will certainly understand a bit more what dorg is saying.
I would cast ultravision if I had a character strong enough to go there.
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I would cast ultravision if I had a character strong enough to go there.
and that wouldn't work either, from memory.
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Easy answer, put down the brightness lol.
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Perhaps a bit off topic but by what I've see of the spell/effect of Ultravision it... kinda does nothing. Atleast from an OOC view. Entering an area effected by the darkness spell still black out the screen. Though I suppose its effects are mostly mechanical. With Ultravision the character can fight as though he was not in the darkness effected area... I think *shrugs*
Anyways, a bit of a suggestion to the GMs if I may. There are Item effects that give off a low light source. Often in various colors too. Would it be possible to place those low light effects in various places in a cave/dungeon? For instance, various places along the walls to represent torch lights or scattered throughout a chamber and/or corridor like coulombs of light from holes in the ceiling. Though I imagine the later being difficult to keep with game time.
"Strange. Its night fall yet there's still light shining through these holes in the top of the cave."
//possible moon and star light?
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Anyways, a bit of a suggestion to the GMs if I may. There are Item effects that give off a low light source. Often in various colors too. Would it be possible to place those low light effects in various places in a cave/dungeon? For instance, various places along the walls to represent torch lights or scattered throughout a chamber and/or corridor like coulombs of light from holes in the ceiling. Though I imagine the later being difficult to keep with game time.
Many, if not all, of the interior tilesets have the option to have light sources built onto the tile itself. This is actually a better way to do things than placing light sources.
Item-based light sources only work when they're equipped by a creature; they do not emit light by themselves.
Placeable objects that produce light often only produce a "lit" effect without actually producing a useful light in a radius around it. Whether they produce light or not, they are not adjustable in brightness.
The best way (for a variety of reasons) to adjust lighting in an area is to adjust the visual properties of the area as a whole and the lighting properties of each individual tile.
We have over 1200 areas between the two servers. I'd guess conservatively that 1/4th of them are interior or underground. Reviewing well-over 300 areas for lighting and then adjusting them for balance (as described above) is no small task, and neither is reviewing them for the intent to place a lot of extra objects to visually explain the light in an area.
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Could also consider actually removing the light sources from gear to make things like darkvision/ultravision etc more useful. Just a thought
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Could also consider actually removing the light sources from gear to make things like darkvision/ultravision etc more useful. Just a thought
There is a way to do this in game. Whether people choose to use it or not is a different matter entirely ;)
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Oh cool, let me know how next time im on the server with you cause all the various light sources on my gear annoys me :P
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Oh cool, let me know how next time im on the server with you cause all the various light sources on my gear annoys me :P
Look for a mysterious contraption in the City of Gold.
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Oh cool, let me know how next time im on the server with you cause all the various light sources on my gear annoys me :P
Yeah, the first thing Steel does when he gets new gear is to remove all the light sources. Nothing on his person glows. :p
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Yeah, the first thing Steel does when he gets new gear is to remove all the light sources. Nothing on his person glows. :p
That's what I used to do with feh too.. but then every one around him were shining beacons of searing the eyes to a crisp lights. So after a while I just gave up lol
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A light source on your person actually gives a penalty to hide checks, mechanically. If you remove all light sources, you'll find that ultravision actually does slightly enhance the visibility of dark area's. It's like a very low light source without the penalty to hide checks.
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That's what I used to do with feh too.. but then every one around him were shining beacons of searing the eyes to a crisp lights. So after a while I just gave up lol
Darkvision and low-light vision work by increasing the distance someone can see in a dark environment. Low-light vision doubles the distance a character can see in low-light conditions (example a human carrying a torch can see 20ft in every direction clearly and would need to make a spot check for anything beyond that, an elf carrying a torch can see 40ft in every direction clearly.) Darkvision allows a character to see up to 60ft in low-light and total darkness and is unaffected by light sources. So if the game can be moded to do this having a light source wouldn't negate these abilities.
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Because being in a party where nearly everyone has glowing equipment makes the dark and low light vision useless.
Yup, and that's a Bioware thing. It may be possible to override, but the payoff would have to be worth the effort put in to make the changes, and the lighting issue is generally minor.
That said, don't stop making suggestions. We may yet find easy ways to try new ideas, and who knows, you might even fall upon something we haven't thought of before.
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It should also be pointed out (as it has, from time to time) that Layonara is not D&D. We use many of the same rules, but the NWN version of Layonara works from NWN's approximation of D&D's rules.
So Darkvision is defined by NWN's rules (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Darkvision), as is low light vision (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Low-light_vision). This isn't to say that they couldn't be better, but their definition varies from the stock D&D definition.
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Yup, and that's a Bioware thing. It may be possible to override, but the payoff would have to be worth the effort put in to make the changes, and the lighting issue is generally minor.
Pretty much.
It would take a massive effort to de-light everything in the game engine. Bioware automatically adds light and other effects to weapons that have elemental damage bonuses over a certain level. This is not an explicit addition but an automatic one that doesn't even show in the item properties. We could probably update code to remove light effects when crafting or enhancing items, but this does nothing for any items that are dropped as loot off of monsters. Spell effects and class abilities that add elemental damage to weapons or produce light in other ways would need to not show these effects any more, which would then make it more difficult to know when they expire.
Some people like to glow though, so there would have to be options available for them also, so there's a choice for everyone.
All that aside, the way NWN handles light and visible distance have little if anything to do with racial characteristics and the like. Such things can affect what we see on-screen but they have little to no effect mechanically.
Taking it all together and then adding in the idea of potentially darkening hundreds of areas does not make a lot of sense in terms of cost vs. reward.
The kinds of things that have been raised here are great for PnP settings and GM-driven RP settings, whether tabletop or online. For unattended mechanics, however, one needs to learn to accept the compromises and limitations of the NWN gaming system.
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Darkvision and low-light vision work by increasing the distance someone can see in a dark environment. Low-light vision doubles the distance a character can see in low-light conditions (example a human carrying a torch can see 20ft in every direction clearly and would need to make a spot check for anything beyond that, an elf carrying a torch can see 40ft in every direction clearly.) Darkvision allows a character to see up to 60ft in low-light and total darkness and is unaffected by light sources. So if the game can be moded to do this having a light source wouldn't negate these abilities.
Yes as in d&d but if I always rpied it this way and even on the sessions I gmed or my brother gmed we also had a personal rules that is infact in nwn, which is the penalty that deep creatures receives to day light.
Example, stay in your dark room for a couple of hours then light a bright light.. it hurts well up to being temporarily blinded. Ever go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and then curse when you open the light of the bathroom? So in essence someone with low light vision would in fact get penalized if a strong source of light was near him blinding him.
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Speaking from the point of view as a career dark elf: Why not apply penalties to non-Deep races when they enter the Deep without dark/ultavision. :P
Its obviously very low on the list and prolly not as simple as it sounds but since we're passing over the realm of it anyway, figured I may as well throw it out there.
Even with things like light on armor or a torch it will only throw the darkness ahead into further blackness except like 1-2 ft infront so might make the Deep even more deadly mechanically (apply flat-foot penalty or just put the same as we Deep races get in sunlight on) for non-Deep races and make those who are more capable of fighting within it. Though granted I dont know how tough the place is anyway
Like I said, just an idea for the future should it take anyone's fancy.
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Any serious suggestions need to be made here (http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/).
They'll get lost in this forum, as it's intended for questions about the game and the game world, not suggestions for changing/improving the game world.