The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Dremora on January 05, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
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Can someone please explain the difference about normal whirlwind striking everything within 5 feet of the character and imp whirlwind striking everything within range of his equipped weapon? Is it purely enhancing the range for polearms like spears and halberds?
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No, an Improved Whirlwind Attack attacks everything threatened by the character, so everything within ten feet, regardless of the weapon employed.
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Hrm, maybe put in the ten foot thing into the LORE description because it just says it attacks everything in range of the character's weapons. Not exactly the most defined explanation :P.
Thanks for explaining it to me though dark :)
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Updated: [LORE]Improved Whirlwind Attack[/LORE]
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Hm, often wandered that myself. thanks for the update though now there's another question... If used with say... a dagger? Extend reach about ten feet... that's one long dagger. O.o
Then again could say there throwing multiple daggers all around. :p
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The idea of the whirlwind attack is that the attacker is striking at everyone within their reach. Since polearms in Neverwinter Nights don't mechanically offer any more reach than any other melee weapon, that means everyone within approximately 3.5 meters, or ten feet.
Myself, I see daggers as far more reasonable than, say, a spear for a whirlwind attack. Far easier to lunge and dodge around a fight with a short blade than to try and whip a spear around, stab, whip it around to the next target, and so forth. (It would be difficult to argue that they're throwing multiple daggers, since they only have one, and a "dagger" is a foot-long blade.)
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The idea of the whirlwind attack is that the attacker is striking at everyone within their reach. Since polearms in Neverwinter Nights don't mechanically offer any more reach than any other melee weapon, that means everyone within approximately 3.5 meters, or ten feet.
Myself, I see daggers as far more reasonable than, say, a spear for a whirlwind attack. Far easier to lunge and dodge around a fight with a short blade than to try and whip a spear around, stab, whip it around to the next target, and so forth. (It would be difficult to argue that they're throwing multiple daggers, since they only have one, and a "dagger" is a foot-long blade.)
Hmm well unless you're called Jet li or Jackie Chan ;P
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True, though a spear is not purely for thrusting, its just what its meant to do. You can cut a throat with it if you swing it across someone's neck and it was really sharp. Sure its not easy but a sharp point traced across flesh will cut. Like what, a single pound of pressure is needed with a decently sharp piece of metal? Even if you don't believe it could happen, smacking someone with the end of the spear will do damage as well, especially if it hits the throat, temple, private area if your a guy in particular. Its gunna hurt XD and a strong enough thwack against the neck can break it, crush a windpipe etc etc.
But anyway, that aside. Atleast we know what Imp whirlwind actually does. Not sure I'll ever take it though, not enough room feat-wise. Need to get all the important stuff in! :P
Edit: Someone spinning with a halberd would work and hurt ;) (though not in the way the animation suggests but then again NWN mechs were never perfect)
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Hm, think I agree with Dremora in saying I probably won't ever take Imp. Whirlwind either. Especially now that I look at the requirements. Basic Whirlwind only reqs. 13 Dex and Imp. req. 23? Bit of a high req. when all it gives is +5 foot reach witch also seems a bit off.
Whirlwind can only be done with melee weapons, thus only effects those in melee range. I don't really know the conversion of RL feet to IG feet but being a melee oriented character how often would creatures be more that 5 feet away?
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Think of a tunnel fight. Normally you can only reach 2 ranks deep if you got a big mob to chase you in and normally only 2-3 opponents will be in a position to hit you (thus 1 rank). I would assume you'd be able to probably hit 3 ranks deep, maybe 4
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Think of a tunnel fight. Normally you can only reach 2 ranks deep if you got a big mob to chase you in and normally only 2-3 opponents will be in a position to hit you (thus 1 rank). I would assume you'd be able to probably hit 3 ranks deep, maybe 4
I hope so when it takes Dodge, Expertise, Mobility, Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack before you can take Improved Whirlwind Attack. That's 5 feats and a 23 Dex requirement to take. Most people will not be able to take the feat till the reach level 21. With all that effort put in I think they have earned the perks to the feat.
Secondly you do not get to use the feat that much any way as you rarely get surrounded enough to use the feat. To make it useful you need to have 5 or more enemy with in reach or you are wasting attacks. In Layo we normally go around in groups and your fellow party members are usually close, thus taking up space where you could attack an enemy. Now in the NWN single player game you are usually on your own and get surrounded constantly.
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Not true, my character has been fighting spawns alone for ages for a multitude of reasons. But in the case of the improved version, it sucks for what its asking. Now if it asked that and not only did it give you extra reach but also increased your ac and let you strike out with your first two attacks.. people would be willing to take it. As it stands.. hell no, and its out of the question for str chars, and not many dexers bother with whirlwind unless they are WMs as far as I've encountered.
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I think for the Weapon Master this is a feat really worth considering, whether it is to emulate the mighty swing around a large crowd with a halberd or perhaps darting in and around a tight crowded meleee with a dagger. I think both work RP wise.
As it is very unlikely other builds will strive for this it kind of allows the WM something to stand out from the crowd. (well the WM is trying to kill a crowd with this feat)
It has pretty demanding requirements and that is maybe the challenge or something that will send you scurrying for other cheaper more useful feats depending on your overall view at the time.
But when people are always striving for that little something that makes their build different from everyone else this type of variation offer just that. So I would say it is worth a second glance beyond mere mechanics.
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I think its the same principle as getting ripped off for buying something, would you pay an obscene price just to look different to someone else? Especially when there's a cheaper and only slightly 'duller' (if you like) version.
Not to mention its limited only to dex WMs unless people burn even more feats using great dex. And then you've the problem of a weak dmg output. Sadly one cannot emulate the mighty swing of a halberd if he has 23 dex normally; I dont know how popular characters with two main stats are on layonara but you'd need to be a fairly high level and be a WM (so you've got a better chance of scoring a crit and killing your opponents before that encircling mob tears you apart) and be willing to be ripped off to take this feat. My advice would be that unless it gets customized and improved, find another way to be different with your build.
That said, whirlwind attack in itself, very useful!
Though in hindsight, dex WM with nothing but str +3 equipment could make it work.. never tried it, +3 stuff didnt work on arelith and we didnt have a level 40 cap. Okay fine I contradict myself but unless I see it done and the character actually capable of surviving and killing his foes I remain skeptical :/ and I still think its too high for too little. So my advice remains the same even if my point about it being useless is not quite true
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Should perhaps be posted in the suggestion board but a few changes to Imp. Whirlwind that I think would make it better and perhaps more useful would be:
Reg:
Intelligence 13
Dexterity 13 (or at least something not so high)
BAB +15 (the first BAB in the line. +15 or +20)
21st level
Dodge
Expertise
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
Specifics: The character performs two full attack actions, rolling two melee attacks at the full base attack modifier against all opponents within 5 feet. (or 10)
By Imp this allows them to strike all around twice instead of just once like normal Whirlwind. Though not sure if adding the second strike to the feat could be done.
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I do believe that the reason it is so hard to get Improved Whirlwind is that they do not want people to be able to get both Improved Whirlwind and Devastating Critical ( LORE: Devastating Critical (http://lore.layonara.com/Devastating%20Critical) ). You can imagine what chaos and mayhem one could inflict with both of those feats. Too over powered in my opinion and I have a character who could benefit from this proposed change.
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Is that even possible with that dex requirement and the dev crit str req (even the non-layo one)?
Though lets be fair, dev crit is the equivelant to implode, or wail of banshee to most people that dont have death ward (clerics only right?). Hell in PvP standard whirlwinding with dev crit would work the same as imp whirlwind, how many characters stand out of base to base contact? You'd charge an archer/mage and unload all your attacks, if you got charged by melee people whirlwind standard would work just fine.. and if you used the extended range to clear out mobs of NPCs.. isn't that exactly what wail of the banshee and implode do? Granted wail dont work on undead.. dev crit dont work on crit immune creatures. So if that was their plan, I guess they didnt really think it through.
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Hmmmm... I don't think Devastating Crit is equivalent to Wail, Power Word, or Weird. Why?
The reason is Devastating Crit is 'limitless.' A melee character can continue to use that over and over and over again without having to rest. With the spells, a spellcaster has like 6-8 of those death spells only. Then, another 25 minutes rest before they recover. So, in my opinion, Devastating Crit is a lot more powerful.
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Presuming you can get close enough to the creature and breach its AC along with things like concealment and epic dodge coming into play as well as their fort save, wail ignores all those other things totally and combined with haste can be spammed like dev crit. Also you need to actually roll high enough to score a crit against whatever your fighting and that means breaching its AC, if its another player and they've built their char solely to get smacked about, then yes they're at serious risk but thats their own weakness in the build, but no more than a high Ac char when the blows actually land. Wail.. just aim in the general direction and auto hit and the enemy must make a save. So its limitless, yes, but that does not make it omnipotent. You can't have a shot at one instant-death ability and ignore the others. They are ALL overpowered or none are. Note power word and wierd are weaker forms. Infact wierd is practically asking to fail.. but if it doesnt, you die to a single dice roll. So if a mage can pull it out of the hat, why cant a melee char? Not to mention mages start chugging these abilities out way before epic.
So yes, you may in your opinion consider it more powerful, but its only more powerful in certain situations.. and if its only more powerful in certain situations, then you can use the same argument for whenever the situation favours a wail or implosion (i.e highly buffed chars and so long as you can click on the enemy model and successfully cast, they MUST take a fort checkand pass, else its game over).
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One interesting thing about whirlwind attack is that while performing it you can't be flanked (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Whirlwind_attack) i.e. sneak attacked. In the field this seems to work most of the time but I have noticed some sneaks get in probably because I'm not in whirlwind mode or coming out of it.
Same holds true for Imp. Whirlwind just that you have a larger attack range.
Seems a nice rp and mechanical feat for a dex based high ac fighter...who's working toward epic dodge.
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With all death spells (Wail, Power Word, Weird), they are powerful but there is always something to save you from the death (immune to death spell, immune to mind spells, true seeing, or just having high fort/will saves).
For Devastating Crit, you have to make the Fortitude Save or you die. However, those who pursue to get that feat is probably a melee character, with a tons of strength, have 4 attacks per round, and probably have a decent crit range (17-20), or even better if they are Weapon Master or use a Scimitar or Falchion. It is also safe to assume their attack bonus is high. With 4 attacks per round, that melee character has a chance to kill you instantly with each attack. And they never run out of attacks. Spellcasters do run out of spells. That is where I believe the advantage is.
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Yes, though my question is, how many death spells from a mage have not got high DCs, with added perks that dont require you to even click on them. Most mages would put in points or take spells from a specialized type of magic to increase their DC. Just like a warrior, now if your fighting a high level warrior with a 15-20 or even 13-20 crit range.. again that only actually counts if your AC is insanely low, and thats nobody else's fault but yours. Now if the levels are high enough or so uneven that their AB makes a laughing stock of your AC, then you've got to realize they'd probably kick your in melee without needing an instant-kill. If you were a mage and got hit in melee.. give the guy something, between all your buffs, holds, concealments, shieds, instant kills, and other effects that come with raw dmg output.. god forbid they get some even ground beyond having to start PvP right next to you. Mages and even combat bards can sometimes be hell to any melee character, even more so with layonara's PvP rules.
Now again in PvP, immunities.. how many warrior-builds without mage levels can throw up wards, none without UMD? How many wards are on offer, not many.
Moving to PvE, I see what you mean, they can do it over and over provided they can hit the opponent easily.. however layonara's spawns arent exactly easy kills, and a mage can do the same thing, all he need do is rest after he's unloaded his 5-6 death spells or more if he likes variety. And he'll cruise through mobs in much the same way; you could say thats poor sportsmanship, but then again.. if you give people the option, why would'nt they take it against spawns that might actually end up putting their char in dire risk of deletion before they want them to be? Okay fine, a mage can choose not to and once you've bought dev crit, its automatically on. Fair enough, no counter for that particular point except thats probably why its subjected to all additional requirements for it to succeed.
Its an RP server ofcourse and its been argued before, that mages should have the ability and warriors should'nt; though if you think it through realisitically, if I hack a sword into your neck, thats you dead. Dev crit; there is a counter argument to that which I actually support but its beside the point unless your curious. Anyway I digress, Rp server, magic is supposed to be something feared, mages are supposed to be in minority compared to warriors. You can argue this, it makes sense.. and its fine by me, hell Arelith where I played before has NO dev crit, and it shows off just how tough casters can be when prepared, thankfully we can switch PvP on after brief RP and kill them before they ward, handy in the Underdark.. except every mage with a brain and enemies walks around warded as much as he can.
My point however is, you cannot say dev crit is overpowered, because its in response to all the death spells of caster classes. They have perks that ignore all the things that the dev crit feat is subjected to in order for it to work: concealment, LoS, base contact, epic dodge, AC. And mages have range at their disposal.
So yeah, all im saying is its not overpowered, it just works in situations like death abilities, and ofcourse gives us a hand in melee should be alone, since we lack the ability generally to cast as many protections as mages do unless multiclassed in a certain way. If you say however that it unbalances things in an RP world.. then yeah I can be persuaded to believe that (thats why layo raised the bar for it), just have a problem when people say its too overpowered to be used and two seconds later our level 30-40 warriors are paraylsed and death spell spammed or imploded and no matter what protections are up they get stripped and we die in the most boring ways imaginable (unless severly warded by a mage, or cleric.. ironic?).
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Something tells me were getting a little off topic here. This started as a discussion about Imp. Whirlwind and now were debating about Dev. Crit. vs Instant Kill Spells... again?
Though I do agree that even with Dev. Crit. mages are still more powerful (especially Wizards and even more so Pure Wizards) With spell penetrations, spell focuses, and all the meta magic feats all making there spell even more powerful. Also a mage (about level 15 or so) probably wouldn't have to worry much about PvPing a warrior even at close range cas they already have atleast one of there first Instant death spells (Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death) and if the warrior has a low will save then he's dead with well... "a flick of the wrist" as they say.
With Dev. Crit. and Imp. Whirlwind already being epic (Level 21+) The mage already has full access to there AoE Instant Death spells (Circle of Death, Wail, Weird... take your pick.) Witch all can be cast at range and effect a large area. A warrior with Whirlwind (or even Imp. Whirlwind) and Dev. Crit would have to charge into the group, wait till they sarround him then perform Whirlwind with the given chance (AB, Crit. Chance, Fort Save) to instantly kill atleast one in that group. Being lucky if he killed all around him but even then it would only effect those near him.
Edit: Took a look through the spell list and the Instant death sells have Fort Saves from death not Will but regardless there is no saves from the damage from Phantasmal Killer or Finger of Death.
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Just like a warrior, now if your fighting a high level warrior with a 15-20 or even 13-20 crit range..
You actually can get that without suffering a lost to ac. It's just a multi class (that has no impairment on ac) two feat and the scimitar. Nothing prevents a fighter weapon master to wear a full plate, a tower or kite shield, and used a scimitar while having imp critical and ki critical. And whither or not he placed points in tumble, even with the armor the points will apply to base ac.