The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on March 19, 2012, 03:06:11 PM
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Would an undisguised goblin be allowed in Center?
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Center as it stands its an outpost, there is not really a town if make sense, its a place that holds people that lives there and near, but not a town per see. there is no guard town, just the Rofirenites whom had voluntarly set to patrol the area, they were set there under the request and by player actions.
Acording to that, A goblin or any other monstrous race would be cause the same kind of disconfort as any other place, It is bad that one orc , goblin, dark elf or whatever to be running around the outpost without any caution, still the people will be afraid and there should one or other brave man that might show up to the task or call the rofirenites , at any point a chaos will raise for the presence of a "monster" in the streets
The only place that has a law ( and a mechanical restriction ) for monstrous races is Hempstead, yet some common sense is expected from the players of monstrous races to play them realisticly.
My two trues
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In short, to add to what Lance already said:
Allowed (not illegal)- Yes.
Liked- No.
Possibly attacked by zealous do-gooders- Yes.
Protected as a citizen under law- No. (meaning the attack of the zealous do-gooder would very likely go unpunished, even if he/she was the aggressor and the goblin does nothing overtly evil)
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Protected as a citizen under law- No. (meaning the attack of the zealous do-gooder would very likely go unpunished, even if he/she was the aggressor and the goblin does nothing overtly evil)
Other than being a goblin of course ( again interpretation of a normal living person of the world . where monsters are monsters and evil by nature.
But agree fully with what Milty expressed there
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Sounds reasonable. Just wanted to make sure there weren't already IC events that would automatically disallow it.
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There was an orc attack on Center. So there might be extra sensitivity to them.
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In short, to add to what Lance already said:
Allowed (not illegal)- Yes.
Liked- No.
Possibly attacked by zealous do-gooders- Yes.
Protected as a citizen under law- No. (meaning the attack of the zealous do-gooder would very likely go unpunished, even if he/she was the aggressor and the goblin does nothing overtly evil)
To add to this list:
Legally prosecuted for attacking/killing said do-gooder? No, but the do-gooder's friends may seek some sort of retribution.
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meaning the attack of the zealous do-gooder would very likely go unpunished, even if he/she was the aggressor and the goblin does nothing overtly evil
Hm, so... a little starving goblin is seen trying to trade with a food merchant and a zealous do-gooder comes up and attacks the goblin? Some how that zealous do-gooder does not really seem much like a good person now. O.o
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Hm, so... a little starving goblin is seen trying to trade with a food merchant and a zealous do-gooder comes up and attacks the goblin? Some how that zealous do-gooder does not really seem much like a good person now. O.o
Incorrect; the zealous do-gooder has prevented the vile little creature from spreading disease amongst the good citizens of Center, stealing cattle, kidnapping children, and eating babies. They probably deserve a medal.
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@drakogear A goblin is not like a pet or any other being that is considered 'friendly' for that matter.
It seems to me that players playing monstrous races should be treated the same as everyone else. This is a misconception.
These creatures are simply scary for the common folk. They are not like cute little creatures.
There will be distrust in the general populace toward them and that is a given.
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*sighs* so much oppression towards mosterious races.
Hm, kinda wander then... would a deformed human be considered a monster and be attacked buy a zealous do-gooder? Say... some one one with Leprosy?
Or rather... how would a Wemic be seen by a zealous do-gooder? Wemics are a monsterious race but also tend to be more chaotic good.
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It seems to me that players playing monstrous races should be treated the same as everyone else. This is a misconception.
Also I wasn't trying to implying anything like that. just wanted to try and point out a possible scenario in witch were the goblin was trying to be good and make a fair trade for some food.
Do remember meeting a goblin in game once. Was quite interesting really... especially since he had Deekins (the kobolt from the expansions) voice some how. Sadly I forgot the name.
Though now I also wander about another thing. Witch would you say is more good? Trying to make peace and try teaching the creature how to be good... or just go all out and genocide them?
(Genocide: wiping out an entire species of life form. Men women and children.)
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*sighs* so much oppression towards mosterious races...
*sigh* Its not oppression!
A monstrous race is not "just" an exotic race; they are monstrous. The monstrous races have a whole lot of gravitas associated with them which can be found in the Lore.
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Also I wasn't trying to implying anything like that. just wanted to try and point out a possible scenario in witch were the goblin was trying to be good and make a fair trade for some food.
Yeah, and that's what's going to happen. No-one's going to welcome him with open arms. "Ah, look, that's one of those 'nice' goblins trying to make good". He's going to get hounded by 99% of the population, and going to suffer trying to find the 1% that does give him a chance (if he lasts that long). And that's what gives that story depth.
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@Drako,
Also I wasn't trying to implying anything like that. just wanted to try and point out a possible scenario in witch were the goblin was trying to be good and make a fair trade for some food.
How would anyone know what the intent of the goblin was? How does anyone know that they are meaning ill intentions?
Hm, kinda wander then... would a deformed human be considered a monster and be attacked buy a zealous do-gooder? Say... some one one with Leprosy?
Big difference here. deformed human . Goblin = Monstrous race.
Even in this instance for some....the deformed human might be avoided but that can vary.
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On the subject of Wemics and other generally friendly exotic races (in which I will include sea elves), I would expect some amount of misidentification, fear, and violence directed at such creatures. First, Wemics and Sea Elves do not have the common ear at creation unless it is approved by the CA team. This means that they must rely on non-verbal modes of communication, which is problematic when facing a scared or angry townsperson/adventurer. Additionally, these races are largely unknown to the populace apart from a few towns (thinking of the Shrines to Shindaleria on Dregar and Druids).
Wemics in particular are problematic because they are large and have sharp claws, which are both threatening.
In short, if you're playing an exotic, friendly race, then expect problems.
These problems, however, are minute compared to playing an exposed monstrous character. In addition to the previous posters' points, exposed monstrous characters have problems both IC and OOC due to certain quest areas being off limits. Additionally, even a masked monster is barred access from certain places. One should assume, for example, that the guards outside Hempstead would require any approaching travelers to reveal their faces.
From a lore standpoint, a lone, exposed goblin would be unlikely. Goblins are known for their cunning and heightened awareness of social situations due to the way their societies are generally structured. Thus, adventuring goblins would likely study social queues and languages of similar small creatures so they could pass. I don't care to spark any debate on the ethics/value of playing a hidden monstrous character.
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Though now I also wander about another thing. Witch would you say is more good? Trying to make peace and try teaching the creature how to be good... or just go all out and genocide them?
Clerics of Az'Atta and other passive deities would argue the former while Toranites, Voraxians, and many, many others would argue the latter.
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As far as I understand it, the Conducts of Virtue do not allow for Genocide. It would violate Valor, Empathy, Restraint and to some extent Honorable Combat. A Follower of Toran who slaughters to eradicate a race (non-undead, non-fiendish etc) and therefore commits genocide hardly can do so within the Conducts of Virtue as I understand them.
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Please remember that you can't apply 21st century thoughts on "equal rights" to Layo. Goblins are like cockroaches. It's not genocide to kill every one you find, it's just good sense. The Conducts of Virtue wouldn't have an issue with killing large evil cockroaches, and I highly doubt anyone is going to be upset with a Toranite killing goblins. Goblins are large evil cockroaches. Remember, they aren't seen as being equal because they simply aren't. They're not "people", they're monsters. The term "genocide" would only work for races that were considered to be worth protecting. Anything else, extermination is simply good sense.
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Sure, sure... a Toranite may thoughtlessly slay monsters and call it extermination, until some druid comes along and teaches them that even cockroaches have a vital role to play in maintaining the balance of nature. Then they might actually start -thinking- and due to their predisposition to be compassionate, empathetic, and merciful toward non-monsterous races, they might also choose to begin extending those traits to monstrous races. One might one day stand in front of a crowd of onlookers and proclaim boldly, "I have a dream..." For a divine law or principal is just that, divine, and therefore logically applies to all creatures, great and small. For is it not the divine nature to discern and judge the soul of a being, rather than the body?
Now you might ask, why does I argue thus? Simply to state that each character is a being unto themselves, and thus has the ability to apply the teachings of their faith to their own thoughts and interactions with others in the world. There is always room for people to deviate from the norm. It may not be probable, or popular, or accepted by the masses, but it is possible.
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Raelyn sits by the fire and remembers clearly her encounter with Feefty One Ear, one ear because merciless mercenaries and adventurers take up the bounty of a man, slay his kind based on their prejudice of the race and believe themselves to be the superior being.
Admittedly, Raelyn has been part of the group who has believed this way, until she met Feefty One Ear, and realized how much suffering he has endured at the hands of those like her. Teaching her all the more why the Conducts of virtue are so important, and should be examined constantly on a case by case basis.
Empathy, Humility, and Restraint should never be forgotten.
I am saying that if you are to truly consider and take to heart the dogma of any god, you can not do so selectively when it suits you. Granted it can be harder to do when there is not a DM around to act on behalf of the monstrous race but that does not mean that as a player we can not keep the virtues in mind and try to still find an alternative before we bash them.
To blindly go at them without RPing trying to resolve the conflict before hand, is no more than murder, and evil itself. And if a DM were to see such actions. I would hope that they would add an evil point to a character who acts in such a manner.
This is my 2 trues worth...
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@Nehetsrev, that is a very modern way of looking at it which does not necessarily apply well to the setting. Someone who advocates for kind and equal treatment of monstrous races would likely be ridiculed by the masses and even betrayed by the trust given to monstrous races. Likewise, such comments on the divine and how the principles apply equally to all is also very much a modern, real-world sort of perspective.
In Layonara, there are real biases along racial boundaries that have some actual basis in fact. Even Aeridin, who teaches to respect life, would take issue with corrupted forms. Grand teaches all dwarves should be destroyed. There are plenty more examples of this sort of divine bias-as-dogma.
There are plenty of reasons for mortals as well among those who do not follow a single deity (i.e. the vast majority of Layonara's population). Orcs (http://lore.layonara.com/Orc)are an aggressive species who, when they're not raiding other populations, are planning raids on other populations or are practicing their fighting skills to use on raids. Something similar can be said of dark elves (http://lore.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf). The list goes on.
"But wait, Dorg...you're sterotyping."
Yes...yes I am. On Layonara (and really most fantasy setting), the "norm" for any given race is a stereotype, and it is, in fact, the rare individual who breaks from that norm...and at great personal risk, I'd add.
Steering back to goblins (http://lore.layonara.com/Goblin), they are perhaps one of the most civilized of the monstrous races, with societies and social structures. They are, however, cunning creatures, and they understand that gaining and maintaining power or status usually involves instilling fear or terror in others. In terms of alignment, goblins have Chaotic tendencies and trend Neutral or Evil. It is no mystery why they are generally disliked and mistrusted. That said, a goblin's instinct for survival will generally allow it to find its "place" within a society among non-goblins, even if that place is low and not given the same set of rights and privileges that might be afforded to non-monstrous humanoid races.
Regarding a Toranite genocide of goblins (or any monstrous race), they would not hesitate to beat back a raid that was threatening a town. They might even take the fight to the goblin tribe if the threat was persistent and somewhat regular. I would expect that they exercise restraint and a couple other key points in the Conducts, such as in the case of the tribe fleeing or some other extenuating circumstances. Left to its own, a goblin tribe is not really a threat to anyone, so there's no sense in wiping them out from a Toranite point of view. Perhaps they'd even reach a treaty with the tribe on behalf of the town. The tribe may well agree to this for reasons of wanting to live. Even so, this would be an "exception" for the case of a single tribe and would not automatically apply to all goblins. Likewise, should that tribe ever threaten the town (or whomever) in the future, Toranites would likely opt to once again fight back the goblins in order to protect those in their charge. As well, a Toranite might try to drive a so-called civilized goblin out of town as a way of protecting the town from the creature's treachery. These are not the sole possibilities, but they are likely.
Regardless of how one may try to spin it, monstrous races are considered so for a reason, and that reason has nothing to do with appearance. It just so happens that the races that are considered monstrous also have very distinct appearances which make them readily identifiable. Regardless of how PCs may choose to portray their monstrous race characters, the norms for a given race hold true far more than they do not. To see a goblin and suspect treachery is valid. To see an orc and expect savagery and impending attach is valid. To see a dark elf and suspect a whole host of evil and negative things is valid.
PCs are perfectly within their rights to embrace every monstrous race as just "other kinds of people" and attribute all the compassion and deference one would give to a member of a non-monstrous race. Bear in mind that this sort of attitude is not shared by the vast majority of Layonara's population. Also bear in mind that it's just a matter of time before one of those embraces comes with a dagger that ends up buried in one's back.
So to summarize...
Monstrous races permitted in Center: Yes
Monstrous races treated with kindness in Center: Generally not
Monstrous races treated with suspicion in Center: Most likely
Monstrous races arrested in Center: No, but Center doesn't have any sort of constabulary
Monstrous races driven out of Center: Probably
Monstrous races tolerated in Center: Possibly, depending
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@ Dorganath - I'm just curious as to which part of my post you're refering to as being "a very modern way of looking at it"?
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I am not Dorg, but I think that applying divine laws equally to all races is a -very- modern idea. To see a soul in an orc would be a very modern idea, in my opinion. In the United States, laws and values were not applied equally to all humans only 50 years ago; in South Africa, 25 years. These are other humans mind you, not orcs and golbins who have a long, antagonistic relationship with humans on Layonara.
I am not saying that radicals are not possible in Layonara, but they would be that: radicals, likely on the fringe of society with a very tough and long path to walk to gain any sort of headway towards the notion that orcs, goblins, etc... have souls like ours and deserve empathy and compassion.
My two cents. Hope it makes sense. I did not sleep much last night.
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Pretty much what gilshem said. That, and evoking Martin Luther King, Jr. (and seemingly a host of concepts associated with his famous speech) to me reflected a more modernized way of looking at race relations in the Layonara setting. In this case, "modern" refers to 21st century Earth attitudes in Western civilization...which is somewhat natural given our player demographics. That said, such views would not be widely held nor would they be broadly accepted, if accepted at all, by the vast majority of Layonara's non-monstrous population. Even among most clergy (with a very few exceptions), such an egalitarian application of divine concepts simply isn't found. Aeridinites don't give much positive consideration to corrupted forms, nor are they likely to respect the life of Corathites. As I stated, Grand's followers would likely try to destroy every dwarf they encounter. Lucindites would not give shelter and consideration to enemies of Magic. There's far too much disagreement among the gods themselves for there to be any sort of egalitarian application of divine principles across all boundaries. That is much more of a monotheistic principle, in my opinion, than an aspect of a polytheistic pantheon.
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Every one you find also includes mothers, children, infants and newborn - in short, ever single goblin/dark elf/orc or whatever else - and slaughter them. On sight. No mercy, no pity, and surely not a single one left.
That is genocide or the "extermination" of a race.
If there is a possible reasoning to do such a thing (against a race that is not undead or comes from the pit in any form) within the Conducts of Virtues as a LG character, I would like to know. It has nothing to do for me with that those are people or not. If they are defenseless (or "innoccent", whatever that means) and you slaughter them nevertheless, and that is what you need to do if you are commiting genocide, I see a possible violation of the "honorable combat" value (among others).
So, is it correct that the Conducts only apply to humanoids (humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, ...) in terms of Honorable Combat etc?
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The trouble is, I can see where both 'sides' of this discussion are coming from.
The Ancient Greeks developed a very 'modern' style of government and it became known as Democracy. This (we are told in the west at least) was the very first instance of democracy in the world - now, is that 'modern'? The Vikings (Norway was first) gave women equal rights, stopped wife beating and made it illegal and protected their children (around the 11-13th century if memory serves) - is that 'modern'? The Spanish Moors had a police force and street lighting during the dark ages, while the rest of Europe was immersed in feudalism and filth - is that modern?
In other words, modern is a term given by us to 'new age' thinking which may not actually be that new.
I can agree with the gain-sayers when they say monstrous races can be hunted and killed like vermin, since that is the world Layo attempts to create and I am all for it.
I can also agree with the others who would light to take a more 'enlightened' view (not necessarily 'modern') of monstrous races and I can work with that too.
I know that Layonara can accommodate both views and not dissolve into a proscribed formula in which every character has to have the same ('un-modern') opinions and views.
Now where did I last park my dark elf - I feel a confrontation coming on around Center :o
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There is a distinct difference between hunting out and eradicating all goblins in every single nook and cranny, and killing every one you find. The point here is that I highly doubt that anyone would purposely go and hunt goblins into extinction, but I also don't think that if it happened by some means the general population would bat an eyelash. Honorable conduct has to take into consideration a lot of aspects of various things. Goblins are evil on the whole. I'm not saying that the Conducts of Virtue say "yeah, go and eradicate all goblins," however, I don't believe that Toran is going to be upset if you go clear out the Redlight Caves either. Unless you took it as a serious undertaking, you wouldn't personally be able to kill goblins into extinction. It's the term "genocide" here that makes things all too extreme. No one is going to fault you for killing a goblin. If the goblin runs away from you (and has not stolen something first and is making a getaway), then certainly, let it go. But watch your back for when it comes back after you with a knife at your throat while you sleep. These are the things that people would think about. If a goblin is coming that close to "civilization" most people are going to assume it has some sort of evil intention be it theft, murder, or overall mischief and mayhem. As far as "women and children" goblins, I don't know that people could really tell much of a difference between a goblin male or a goblin female unless they looked really closely. A goblin child could easily be mistaken as a shorter or smaller goblin. You have to understand that when you de-humanize a race, which is what is done here, unlike what is being argued for in this thread, that people do not apply the same characteristics as man, woman, and child to that race. So, yes, people would likely kill all sorts of goblins without a thought, not because they were horrible people killing children, but because they were heroes killing monsters. It's a difference in morality.
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@Xaltotun-Interesting about the Vikings, I had no idea about that. As far as the Greeks version of democracy is concerned, I would not call it particularly enlightened, as the only people who could participate in voting were male citizens, no women or slaves allowed. I do take your point that modernity, and the "cutting edge" is very much a notion of the moment, where every civilization in their present believes they have achieved or discovered some sort of pinnacle.
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I spoke out specifically against genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide) here:
Though now I also wander about another thing. Witch would you say is more good? Trying to make peace and try teaching the creature how to be good... or just go all out and genocide them?
Clerics of Az'Atta and other passive deities would argue the former while Toranites, Voraxians, and many, many others would argue the latter.
To point out that it is not necessarily acceptable within the Conducts and I now what to know if it is.
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Layonara is not Earth.
Leave all your parallels at the login screen.
Sure, there's going to be overlap, but they are not the same or even similar except in the most general of senses.
Again, if individuals wish to believe that all monstrous races are just ugly and/or misunderstood people who need a hug, that's fine. That is also going to be a fringe concept that is only held by a very, very small fraction of the population as a whole. Don't be surprised if small children point and laugh at you for cuddling with an orc....right before it tears your arms off for a snack.
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I am aware of that, Dorganath. I would like to know if the racism/speciecism in Layonara expresses in the Conducts of Virtue in the form that it is completely acceptable for Toran and his church to apply the Conducts only to "humanoid" races, or, even shorter: Do the Conducts require my paladin to fight honorably and with restraint against monsters or could I request a CDQ for him to remove the whole race of goblins/orcs/dark elves from a certain part of the world and get away with the things needed to achieve that goal or are there possible penalties for killing a lot of defenseless creatures (young offspring etc). It would add to my understading of the world.
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@Aphel, my comment was not directed at you. It was a general statement to all participating in this thread.
Regarding your question, there are many ways to answer that question. I am going to avoid specifics, because that makes the box too small.
What is written about Toran's Conducts of Virtue does not make a distinction one way or the other in regards to race, species or any other demarcation. That could be interpreted as applying to all universally, and that any weak, defenseless "monster" should be protected by Toranites or at least given the same consideration as people. On the flip side, it doesn't forbid racism/speciesism/whateverism either, which could be interpreted as the Conducts applying to what are considered "people". These are definitely the extremes, but they serve to illustrate that there is room for interpretation.
On one hand, Toran may not fault one of his followers for sparing the life of, or even protecting, a goblin if it was a matter of protection. That does (potentially) show valor, restraint and possibly a few other things. That said, goblins are not known to be upstanding, moral members of society. There is a fair amount of evil-ness within the goblin population, proportionately more than within human populations. Toran teaches his followers to rout evil where it lives, so now what? Only Paladins can sense evil, so what if a cleric or simply a faithful Toranite decided that the goblin was too dangerous to live. Toran may well accept this also, given the general nature of goblins.
It's all in the interpretation and the actions that come from it.
It is doubtful, in my mind, that Toran would excuse the wholesale and active genocide of goblins/orcs/whatever simply because they exist. Somewhere in there, I would think that true genocide would become an evil in and of itself. That said, if a whole tribe threatened a town, and during the defense of that town, every goblin was killed, that is a matter of combating evil and protecting those who cannot protect themselves.
This is a general, non-specific case. It does not perfectly fit with your question, and I'm not going to make it fit. You need to decide how your character will respond in situations that come up in-game and interpret each situation as appropriate given what your character knows and believes. It's very situational, and in all things there is flexibility. Flexibility, of course, has its limits, so common sense is also very important.
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Thank you anyway, I think that already clearified the question I had.