Metagaming Injury and Bleeding

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

This has slowly become on of my Metagaming Pet Peeves...

I have issue with the idea of associating the "Status" Indicator over a PCs head with whether or not they are bleeding, and how injured you can assume someone is.  Maybe because I play a character who wears full plate, which by my understanding leaves only joints and areas where the armor pieces connect open for any true injury since the plates realistically offer decent protect from most weapons, save heavy hammers and axes, but I do not think having "barely injured" or "injured" over your PCs head means he's bleeding.

There are plenty of serious injures that can occur in someone without them outwardly bleeding: factured bones like ribs and legs and arms, dislocated joints, even punctured lungs, even sever bruising and swelling.  Most of these I'd place under the "injured" catagory.

Barely injured erks me most of all when someone says "your bleeding."  Ever get a bruise?  Paper cut?  Scratch? Even jam a finger or other joint?  Those are "barely" injures, and when a person is either fully clothed or in full armor, how can someone just instantly assume you have a bruise/scratch/limp/whatever?

To Badly Wounded and Near Death I concede to the "bleeding" crew.  You get hit with an axe, it messed up your armor, and there is now a gash in your (insert limb).  You just got jumped by five nasty bandits/trollocs/(insert monster)s and they nearly killed you.  You're bleeding, its a fact.

I bring this up because of an old discussion on the true nature of HP and what it represents.  To me, HP represents a mix of a PCs Stamina and ability to avoid real injury (with HP lose a close call), your armors ability to prevent harm (with HP lose as armor weakening hits), your ability to block (with HP lose being staggering blows), and finally the amount of damage your body can take and keep moving (which for me is around 35-50% of ones HP).  So to be barely injured and bleeding to me makes no sense.  Winded, bruised maybe, a dent or two in the armor, fine.  "Looks like you got into a fight" makes much more sense to me then "why are you bleeding?"  Cause I'm not bleeding....  

Anyway, I can't say this is the most structured thing I've written, but I hop you get the point.  I don't mean to be angsty if I come across that way, just this is something that kinda bothers me, and wanted to address.  Feel free to comment or discuss it, but I'm pretty solid with this in my mind as the most logical approach to what "Barely Injured/Injured" really means.  GMs/DMs are welcome to comment too  

[LightlyFrosted]

Well, it is of course open to interpretation, but I'm inclined to believe that you aren't SERIOUSLY bleeding unless you are bleeding to death.  Significant bloodloss puts you in danger of.. well.. death.  If you're bleeding out, there's a good chance it will kill you if you do not receive medical attention.

That's not to say that you don't look messed up or injured at 'badly wounded' or 'near death', but neither are you trying to hold your guts in your stomach to keep from falling to pieces.

[Script Wrecked]

You can bleed from superfical wounds. Hence, "you're bleeding" doesn't necessarily mean, "you're bleeding out". It could mean, "your nose is bleeding", or, "your scratch is bleeding."

But yes, "you're bleeding" is evocative, and probably too severe for "barely injured". Perhaps, "you're hurt" might be a more generic descriptor, or, "you're looking a bit roughed up".

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[twidget658]

Shiff, I think you have just signed your own death warrant, personally. Since Shiff wears the full plate, his injuries (broken bones, bruises, dislocations, etc) will be concealed and you will not be seen as hurt unless you are bleeding out from under you armor. Are you saying that you don't want people to heal you unless you emote that you are hurt in battle? Since the game mechanics don't show everything, you will have to type it out.
 
 *Blood drips from the elbow joint in his armor.*
 
 In the middle of a fight...I hope you can fight and type at the same time or you will die more often then you already do now. But it is your prerogative. I recommend you let the group know at the beginning that you don't want to be heal in battle. I am sure that people don't want to watch others die IG, but if that is what you want...
 
 Now walking through town...yes, I can see your point.

[jrizz]

Well if Shiff would stop bleeding all over the place this would not be an issue

On a more serious point people, just dont use the floaty text information (except in battle.)

[Lynn1020]

I really don't understand why this is a big deal.

I think most of the time people say those things as a reason to help you with your wounds.  But we can just ignore Shiff's wounds until he near death or bleeding to death. Even then we may not be able tell there is something wrong on the inside that we can't see.

I don't have a problem with saving bandages and heal potions.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I never said I didn't want to be healed in battle, and was refering solely to the walking through town stuff.  In battle people re going to see others get hurt...  So...  Whether that was sarcasm or not, I donno, but that was never implied in my Post

[Kirbiana]

I don't know about other clerics, but in battle my slightly dim-witted Aeridinite scatters healing potions around willy nilly, figuring they MIGHT help someone that she's flinging them at.  (I've never been sure how to RP the targeted potions, anyway.  Am I really pouring them down someone's throat while they're smacking at a bodak?  Seems unlikely.  I figure I'm just handing them over to be swigged by the fighters when they get a chance and need the healing.)
 
 I do think it is worth bringing this topic up again, because we seem to have a recent influx of players new to the server, and they might be surprised NOT to be offered healing by strangers when they are badly wounded.  So for you new folks, please be aware that the consensus on Layonara is that it makes better RP for clerics NOT to heal someone they don't know, whether or not their injuries should be apparent based on the floaty text over their head.  If you encounter a cleric and want to be healed, it's best to stagger up to them and gasp out a pitiful, "Help...."  , then collapse at their feet as a very funny dwarf once did with me outside the Sooth Moors.  Still one of my favorite Layo moments!
 
 Just my 2 gp!
 
 

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Hang on!  This is not  "Stop Healing people" Post...  Why do you all think I brought this up in opposition to being nice and Helping people?

[Lynn1020]

Well I recall a trip with Shiff where you sent me a tell about just because you were injured doesn't mean that your showing blood.  Then the rest of the trip Shiff would get angry when those around him tried to use bandages on him after battles.  That is what was referring to.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Well I recall a trip with Shiff where you sent me a tell about just because you were injured doesn't mean that your showing blood.

Thats all I'm really trying to say here.  The IC stuff was just Shiff being prideful which I guess wasn't the best time to be...  "I'm not hurt"  Seems like something a proud warrior would tell someone, despite facts like being actually hurt

[Script Wrecked]

(I've never been sure how to RP the targeted potions, anyway.  Am I really pouring them down someone's throat while they're smacking at a bodak?  Seems unlikely.  I figure I'm just handing them over to be swigged by the fighters when they get a chance and need the healing.)

Actually, they're really "healing water balloons" that you just toss/throw at those in need.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[ycleption]

If someone swings an axe or mace at plate armor hard enough that it does any damage, it's certainly going to be visible enough to justify an inference if injury.
If someone stabs you with a pointy sword designed for piercing plate armor it's probably going to look worse than it is by the time you get back to town; arming coats and gambesons soak up small amounts of blood very well, and that's not going to go away when someone tosses a healing potion at you. Most of the places he could get injured easily are going to be visible, and if he's got a hole in the middle of his armor, well...

Honestly, if anything, I think the reverse is probably true, people don't RP how bad they probably actually look like coming back from battle, and metagame that they can tell a character isn't horrifically injured when they have blood-soaked patches of clothing and holes in their armor.

If it's a problem for you, and you want to be in control of what your character looks like after combat (which is perfectly reasonable) just type *Shiff's hair looks mussed and he's breathing heavily* when he walks into town with "barely injured" floating over his head, and the problem's solved. (hotkey a few different descriptions depending on what kind of things he's been fighting if you want to get fancy

[Mooneyes]

Thank God for those healers out there!  My fighters, Emerald and Peanut would not have survived as long as they did if they had to yell through their helms...I NEED HEALING in Battle.  There were those that in a group I was in would see how much an attack  must of damaged me,  So I was always thankful for those who could get to Peanut or Emerald while I took the bashing and healed her so so they could go forward into battle. Just my two cents before I have my coffee this morning *yawns*

[twidget658]

To amend my first post a bit...
 
 If you want other people to RP your injuires, then you are at their mercy and what they decide...
 
 *sees Shiff favor his left arm*
 *notices Shiff limping*
 *notices Shiff holding his side*
 
 I recommend you start the RP with what is wrong with your PC rather than letting other people decide what THEY see happening to your PC. If you don't, then they will default in 'helping your PC' for what ever reason THEY see fit...most commonly, bleeding. If other people see Shiff bleeding without you giving another reason, then you are basically on their RP grounds and will have to go with what they start.
 
 Walking through town with the 'INJURED' statuts and you not RP'ing it is on the same level as people healing you for for whatever reason that they can think of.

[jan]

Well if Shiff would stop bleeding all over the place this would not be an issue

On a more serious point people, just dont use the floaty text information (except in battle.)

I always figured that rp isn't dependable on situations *shrugs*
In battle its probably harder to tell who is hurt then when they are walking/running around in town .( of-course depending on how-many are fighting )

So if you should not use the "injured , badly hurt , barely hurt " floating texts in towns , you shouldn't use them in battle even-though we all know its important to heal the ones saving you from getting hurt more .

Just my two copper .

[miltonyorkcastle]

A few things, I suppose:

On the nature of HP- I prefer to look at HP as cinematic. What do I mean by that? It's along the lines of what Shiff suggests when he says HP loss occurs at close calls. In other words, HP is not a real injury at all. The character didn't even get hit. Instead, the character strained, used extra energy, relied on that extra bit of luck adventurers have, etc. to avoid getting hit, hence the HP loss. Injury doesn't occur until after you go below 0 HP, when the character is no longer able to summon that extra bit of umph to avoid getting hit. Since, in all reality, it only takes one real injury to take a man down. Even if the fellow isn't dead, it takes him out of the fight (except for a few extraordinary hard-noggins who can keep going while their intestines fall out). This is how I handle all HP in my PnP campaigns. That also means that when a character does go below 0 HP, the injury is defined, such a broken ribs, chopped-off hands, deep gash, concussion, etc. Then the character gets to live with the scars from that wound and deal with the RP of having that wound until it heals naturally or magically. (I could go on and on, explaining how potions do their thing, etc, but hey, this ain't my PnP game, as I point out below.)

HOWEVER, NWN and this version of Layo are not my PnP games. In NWN, HP is actually designed to represent how much physical injury a character has. Of course this means that everytime your character goes into a badly wounded state he should be trying to put his insides back where they belong, but it's somewhat hard to RP that all the time, and kind of gruesome all the same. It's also wierd to think about your character being able to move around easily with a gaping wound, but hey, our characters do it all the time during battle. And that's how it is unless in the new Layo HP is defined differently. (maybe I should start up a thread in the MMO forums, hey?)

So how does this apply to someone walking into town with the "injured" status over their heads? In NWN, someone with the injured status isn't just winded, as they would be in my PnP campains, they are supposed to actually be, well, wounded. As in, some nasty effect from battle, be it broken ribs, a missing eye, etc. Someone walking into town "injured" then, by NWN terms, will be visibly hurt. Even if the wound is hidden, the character should display the effects of the wound (like gasping and barely walking in the case of broken ribs).

Now, as far as I know, we have no set "official" definition of how HP works in the current version of Layo. I've explained how HP was originally designed to be implemented in NWN, and how I personally like to view HP. I'm going to say, at this point, RP it as you want, just don't get too upset when others RP it differently than you, since we have no definition of what HP really represents. At least not yet.

[jan]

No matter how you look at it , if you rp it one way in one situation you SHOULD rp it the same in another situation .

By this i mean , that if you rp that because of your armor or any means that can hide your injuries others cant see your hurt , they wont see it in a life-threatening situation either.

A complete crazy barbarian wont turn into a super intelligent fighting machine just because he's in a battle  ( or at least in my eyes he shouldn't )

The same goes for a nutcase ( fill in any class here ) , if they are played crazy they shouldn't suddenly become " normal " because it is easier in a battle .

Having said this , if you want to play your character as not showing hurt ( when your floating text says you are ) then you should draw that line further INTO battle as-well.

Ever been in a bar-fight ??
It is almost impossible to see who is hurt the most when people fly around , furniture flies around and you yourself are dodging those and blows aimed at you personally .

If your set on rping something , then the situation in-which you are shouldn't matter , in town or in battle .

[Hellblazer]

The problem here arisen when people rpied him bleeding at the crossroad today. Fact is that if you are still injured, then your armor is showing the sing of combat, you might still be bruise, bleeding etc. Might be that the armor protects more, but its not indestructible, and at an Injured state, it would show.  So if you go around walking with an injured status, the PC's would notice it. Wither it be by blood, broken leg or arm, eye gouged, or leaving a trail of blood droplets.

If you want a PC's to see something specific, then it falls upon you to rp it accordingly, if not you leave it to the imagination of the player, and also to the current locations you were, that the player (in most cases) would know what you might have been fighting, giving them an idea of the type on injury you could have had.