Subdual mode for PvP

[Pen N Popper]

Oops. I guess I always just assumed that in V3 with the increased freedom of PvP that we would be using the system commonly found on other servers. This system lets you toggle between subdue and kill mode for PCs. Subdue leaves the opponent at 1hp. Some even paralyze them for a time so they cannot flee OOCly when they should be unconscious.
  What this allows is:
  1) Arena-style fighting anywhere.
  2) The chance to let a foe live, while still "winning" the argument.
  3) Allowing a moment of RP at the end of the battle as the PC switches from subdue to kill and lands the killing blow. Mighty Mouse draws back his fist and drives it into the Cat.

[Witch Hunter]

i like this idea

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I like it, as well, but there are two big questions with any system:

Will it contribute to lag?

Is it exploitable?

[Dorganath]

We may consider it, but I'll say up-front that this will almost surely not be in for the V3 release.
  Depending on how the community behaves, this PvP system may simply turned off if it's shown people can't handle it maturely. At that point, subdual mode is irrelevant.

[Pen N Popper]

It will contribute to lag as much as the arena script currently does.  Exploitable? I guess maybe you could attack a bleeding comrade with your greataxe while in subdual mode, thereby closing his wounds. Seems simple enough to script out.  As I mentioned, this is used on numerous other PWs in various forms.
  http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=1572

[Hellblazer]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/24/2007  9:04 AM  I like it, as well, but there are two big questions with any system:  Will it contribute to lag?  Is it exploitable?

 I have seen this implemented on a server i sometime play when layo goes down. I have never seen lag apear from that. You can take it as the stabilising portion of when you are close to dying but dont. From what i have seen this does not contibute to lag but still is aplicable, only this time it would make sure that the char does not go below 1 hp.
  The only exploitable thing I can see is that people could use it anywhere, I still think it should be only usable in certain areas and only if both parties agrees to it.

[darkstorme]

Well, I'd like to see subdual damage work like it does in PnP - that is, if you're using a bladed weapon, you take a massive hit to AB, since you're trying to hit with the flat of the blade, which is not easy, particularly after years of training in using the, well, sharp part of the sword.

To simplify, it might be more straightforward to have weapons like the sap or a billy club, or just plain old bare knuckles, do subdual damage, and leave anything else as lethal.  The system from Arabel (I think that was the server name) is customizable along those lines.  However, due to the fact that it requires replacement of the onDeath and onDying scripts, it might clash somewhat with the existing death system.

The other problem I can see, short of the insta-stabilize technique Penandpopper pointed out, is accidents, or "accidents".  PC A and PC B are chatting out in the goblin wastelands.  PC A says something about PC B's mother.  PC B drops his sword and wades in with his fists.  The comment was really mean, so PC B pummels the poor sap into unconsciousness.  PC A is now "unconscious", with one hit point.  PC B, his rage fulfilled, looks for a healing kit to patch PC A up.  Meanwhilst, PC C is having a little trouble with the goblin camp.  He finally makes a run for it, only to be cut down by a goblin arrow... but not before the goblins catch sight of PCs A and B.  Two goblin arrows meet in PC A's body... and a fighter who eats goblins for breakfast is cut down.  This is, of course, not the way it happens in PnP, but without a second way of measuring subdual damage, there's not really any way to fix that.  Now, imagine you're Player B, and you have a personal grudge against Player A.  How hard would it be to orchestrate just such an "accident"?

That's the biggest non-script-around exploit I can think of.  I am working on a theory for an alternative, but it may be lag heavy.  We'll see once I write up a proof-of-concept.

The advantage I can see to limiting subdual damage to specific weapons is that you can then limit to whom these weapons go.  If some people would be irresponsible with said weapons, they don't get 'em.  That's better, in my mind, than restricting things to consent-only for a fistfight.

Regardless, subdual damage is a pie-in-the-sky system... it'd be really nice to have, but there's no rush.  (And frankly, I'd much rather have the ability to inflict subdual damage on NPCs than on PCs.  The number of times I've wanted to knock out an NPC to incapacitate them, rather than kill them...)

[Pen N Popper]

I think there is some misunderstanding about how subdue is used. It is not only for sparring (though that is a useful feature). It is not meant to be for special weapons or such (though some servers do implement it through a "sap" that you have to wield instead of a real weapon). It is really meant to be an alternative to outright killing someone.
  You may say that it is unrealistic to incapacitate someone with a greatsword, but I would contend that there are a lot of game mechanics things that could be similarly painted. Let's forego the fantasy aspect of the system and spell out some of the pluses and minuses.
  The goblin example I don't quite understand. If two players have gone into PvP mode, then there is a tacit agreement that one may be killed. That both chose to stay in subdual mode means nothing when they're fighting in a dangerous area.
  Let's take a LG goody-two-shoes paladin that finds a PC standing on the hill outside Hlint surrounded by badger bodies. After some RP they agree to go into PvP. The badger killer switches to kill mode, the paladin stays in subdual. One has a complete disregard of life, the other just wishes to teach a lesson that someone of that type will remember. Would the paladin PC that is a preserver of life kill a man over some badgers? Did he fail his INT roll?
  What I am suggesting is that subdual mode opens up a bit more RP choices.