Do you have a question for Leanthar?

[Leanthar]

"positive" means in a way that does not harm the community and shows responsibility within the community and the game world.  It does not speak about your character as a whole.
  However...you character must make a difference in the world--negative or positive (good or evil) but it needs to be the character that makes a difference in this way.  And then the player him/herself must make a positive effect as stated above.

Just a simple question.
Why is XP requirement so high in Layonara?
Not really complaining about it, well maybe just a little, 360,000 xp to go to next level seems a bit steep, to go from 8th to 9th.
Most 12th lvl characters require between 300k to 450k to go to 13th, but given the math and with each lvl attained the amount of xp required to go to next level keeps doubling.
XP 160000 required for 8th, then 320000 xp required to go to 9th, it there a cap to the doubling of xp, cause if it keeps doubling, my character will have to start combating demons or gods to gain a level by the time she reaches 12th lvl combined.

[KageKeeper]

Komoda - 10/1/2005  12:02 AM

Just a simple question.
Why is XP requirement so high in Layonara?
Not really complaining about it, well maybe just a little, 360,000 xp to go to next level seems a bit steep, to go from 8th to 9th.
Most 12th lvl characters require between 300k to 450k to go to 13th, but given the math and with each lvl attained the amount of xp required to go to next level keeps doubling.
XP 160000 required for 8th, then 320000 xp required to go to 9th, it there a cap to the doubling of xp, cause if it keeps doubling, my character will have to start combating demons or gods to gain a level by the time she reaches 12th lvl combined.

Not sure if I am not supposed to be posting on this answer, if not, I hope Leanthar does not smite me too hard..

This might help a bit: http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3617&posts=4.

That will at least show you the level progression and the amount of XP needed.

I could hazard a guess as to why the XP needed is high, but I will leave that to Leanthar so you get the official answer.

(Oh..and you only need 160,000 to go from 8th to 9th. )

[Leanthar]

I want it high because I don't want the server loaded full of epic characters inside of a few months.  We have not had a character wipe in about two years and we still have a limited number of epic characters.  Epic should be just that, epic, and if I allowed everybody to get to 15+ inside of a month or two then I would not have Layonara in its online version.  In addition it is good for you to RP through your character and the longer it takes to level the better you get to know your character.  Well except for those that still want to go to 20th level in 4 or so months (some less), those people are just hack and slashing and I will never be convinced that they are here to RP--they aren't--at least not at this time.

[Talan Va'lash]

Does the XP chart in the above link have the current epic progression?  I remember it was changed again a while back, and I'm not sure if it was updated since then.

-TV

Is there any way to increase character attributes other than by worn magic item or level increase. Remembering that in NWN there were potions that caused a permanent increase, and also in the original DnD game there was manuals that an adventurer could find that increased level or attributes, such as Manual of Puissant Skill at Arms, just an example.
Such items were never cheats in my book, but they were reason enough in some cases for adventurer to go on a quest.
Actually, what got me thinking about this was Owen's story of the Identity switching crystal.

[Talan Va'lash]

I'm pretty sure the only things that gives a NATURAL increase to stats are epic stat feats.

That... a deck of many things.... but the question is... would you draw?

-TV

[Leanthar]

Komoda, agreed they are not cheats and handled in a pnp style format they are a great way to handle things.  Right now we are using nwn to enforce character legality and if we allow potions, books etc. to permanently jump points in stats and/or give feats and such then I am pretty sure that the character would become invalid.  On top of that, it is a matter of oh say a day or two before everything is known about all potions/books etc. (and their locations) and everybody will have those permanent stats/feats etc.--which kind of makes the idea behind this moot.  I do understand your thinking though, I just don't think we can do that at this time.

[Filatus]

Everything in NWN counts towards the maximum of +12 for ability stats, except for the epicfeats. I think that also goes for the skins.

In my humble opinion, such magical potions and/or devices should be as uncommon as seeing psuedo-dragon speaking greek to socrates while enjoying a chess game, but they are out there. Either that or just have recipes with ingredients that are more risk to attain than let say, fighting an ancient black dragon.
Just a thought.

[Talan Va'lash]

Komoda - 10/5/2005  7:51 PM

In my humble opinion, such magical potions and/or devices should be as uncommon as seeing psuedo-dragon speaking greek to socrates while enjoying a chess game, but they are out there. Either that or just have recipes with ingredients that are more risk to attain than let say, fighting an ancient black dragon.
Just a thought.

There are quite a few characters that wouldnt have that much trouble with an ancient black dragon.  At least an ancient black dragon as per the monster manual *winks*

-TV

Now this is only a question, and it is not my wish to rewrite the whole magic system of the game world.

In my character development thread, I had posted a belief of my character of something called the Runes of Power. These are the elemental runes, keys to creation, they are supposed to hold great wisdom, but what they are no one knows, they have been lost to antiquity.
Now in the development thread, the existence of the runes were stories told to every child within my characters clan. They were stories, they may be fact or fable, but they were stories told to young gnomes as an inspiration. In the stories it was told the keys of creation were originally given to each of the races, and over time, many of the runes had become lost, either due to ignorance, misfortune or just plainly forgotten as races opted for further and better understanding of the weave.
Such a belief, is not loosely based, as it was something I thought of after reading the history of LO, of what was before the dragon gods and of the gods that came after. Others may believe in character, and that is just it, the weave has always been, but to my character she believes that may have been always there, but such a resource was only known to a few. Again, we are going back on the stories of the runes, the runes are keys to creation, and perhaps it was these keys that were used to make the first races. They in themselves mught be very powerful artifacts and every part of the weave. My character does not know that, but she does believe the keys are the foundations to every race on Layonara that have developed a civilization. The character only has the stories, whether fact or fable, it is the seeking of that knowledge which is important.
Ice believes that perhaps suggesting the runes as a premise for a CDQ would rewrite the magic system of LO. No. If anything I believe it would strengthen and give the weave perhaps more of a history, a different timeline perhaps, one that is not of the war with dragons and sinthar. It might explain why the dragons came to layonara in the first place, might explain more of how the races were created to be as slaves. Might explain more about the bloodwells. It might also explain how sinthar was able to stop time without using the weave.
The whole runes idea, is a gnomish belief in their account of history.
Just as it is their belief that each star in the sky is a sphere with other worlds within.

So this whole long winded introduction and idea comes down to this question.

What do you think?

Its basically the simple premise, of the modern psychologist disbelieving in the supernatural until they have proof. You have a cleric of goran disbelieving in the weave as the be-it-all unless she finds proof, and casting spells is not enough proof.
Goran has great machines constructed not of the weave, but of pure science, and it is these machines that provide the clerics of goran their ability to enact their will.

[Leanthar]

Komoda, sorry that just is not the way how we have things defined nor how the history has been developed around magic so this would not exist.

On a completely different topic.
Some of us have noticed, that with each reset of the game (or server). Encounters have been getting tougher, or just plainly lethal. Monsters are have become fanatical in intent, and almost all encounters are near fatal.
I just do not know how to say this, but I guess just coming out and voicing my opinion is better than holding anything back.
Encounters seem to be geared to the high level characters that are already in play. Characters that have all the fancy armors, fancy weapons and magical items.
The low level characters, and I mean those lower than 12th, have little chance in hell of doing anything except staying close to Hlint. Now near as I can figure, not all encounters, from a DMs perspective, should be fanatical in mentality or lethal. Given a boar, will defend its territory, but for a bird to attack you with all the fervor of a fanatic. That is a bit much.
Last night, Thursday, October 13th. We (party) went for almonds, a needed component for Essence of Grace. What would you know, almonds are guarded by some really nasty giants. These giants were fanatical and when did giants get the know how to making bows? I can understand clubs and spears, but bows?
The quest for almonds killed my character three times last nights. No, I did not have fun. Spent most of my time sitting in reflection or running from encounters. Even in a party of four, which you would think would be enough to protect self from another excursion to the soul mothers domain, was not enough.
I am finding that in order to survive any venture, one neeeds to have at least one or two high level characters in order to survive. Unfortunately many of the high level characters have become merchants and do not adventure, settling for the need to amass great wealth in gold. They roleplay among themselves, and when they do adventure, they do so enmasse. It would seem that the encounters in game are geared towards them and their enjoyment, whereas the low levels get mooshed.
Not saying that the game is not fun, but as a low level character, there should be ventures that five low level characters should be able to survive.

By the way, question, how many high level characters are at their current levels because they managed to do so before you revised the needed xp required to gain a level?
Bone Golems in Dire Wood has basically sealed those wooods from low level characters.

When I was rping my first character, survival was a bit easier, but now i find, with each new reset, the game is becoming increasingly more difficult, and I do not think it is because of my current level either, as other players ahve noticed it as well.

[IceDragonDuvessa]

The XP to level has always been custom in Layonara... and it used to be tougher when there was XP lost on death. Those that have made it EPIC so far have not walked as easy a road as you seem to imply.. infact it was much harder.

I am not sure what you are mentioning wih each reset its gotten harder as there have been few changes to the placed encounters especially on west.


It seems with every post you make you are taking a dig at the core of Layonara and how things are done here because it doesn't fall in line with exactly how you think things should be for your character.

[Dorganath]

Komoda:
  I'd point out to you that nearly all of Layonara is designed around groups, not solo adventurers.  The West server is intended primarily for 1-10 level characters, but that's not to say that all areas on West are suitable for that entire range, nor for all possible groups.  Also, depending on one's character, he/she may not be able to survive easily even at 10th level.  My 16th level (multi-classed, 11/5 split) character can get his butt kicked on Mistone in some areas, primarily because he is a spellcaster and does not wear armor that would interfere with his casting, and yet he spawns monsters suitable to someone of higher level.  It's not pretty.
  Read about the Dire Wood and tell me if you think that area should be a walk in the park.  That was a massive battlefield and is a massive graveyard.  It's not a good place to be.  That said, I have seen characters who are below 12th level, and in a group, make good work of the things in Dire Wood.  It can be done.  If you can't do it alone, or if your group cannot do it, then perhaps you need to change the group.  For example, add more muscle or spell power.
  The giants you spoke of were on Rilara, not Mistone.  Rilara is essentially governed by Milara, one of Blood's generals.  It's conceivable to think that Milara may be equiping the giants there with bows/crossbows to further aid in thinning out the hero population that insists on treading upon his lands.  It's also conceivable to think that these giants have been looting the corpses of those unlucky folks who come and try to steal their almonds and honey (mmmm....honey baked almonds....) and picking up a few bows in the process and maybe figuring out how to use them well enough. 
  There is a war on.  Expect danger.  If you would have proceeded to Bloody Gate and beyond, you may have met up with things far worse than giants, things that give even high-level characters a hard time.
  Since I take care of the updates, I can tell you with some great certainty that in the last several updates, there have been no changes to the encounters or the creatures in those encounters.  Of the new/updated creatures that have been included, they consist primarily of very specific (storied) creatures and/or customized monsters that will be initially used on quests only.  And certainly the ones you mentioned have not been touched.
  Having said all this, it's important to remember 2 things:
  1) This world is dynamic, and changes do happen.  Some benefit the players/characters, others do not.  Some make things easier, others make things harder.  Like life, bad things happen if you go into the wrong places, and such places are not always marked with "Danger" signs.
  2) There is a war in Layonara...a massive one...and very recently, that war finally reached Mistone.  It is no longer a "safe" haven from the encroachment of Blood and his forces.
  Edit: Last thing.  The encounters scale up depending on the level of those entering the encounter area.  You will find that they will in fact get harder as you gain levels.  This is how it was designed to work, and it has been that way for a very long time, along with the XP progression.  Also, as your level increases relative to the monsters, the XP you get for kills will decrease.  As such, most creatures on West will give higher-level characters 1 XP regardless of how difficult it is to defeat. So high-level characters really get little to nothing out of West, dispelling the idea that it is somehow a haven for higher-level characters at the expense of low-level characters. 

A bit long, given examples and explanations

It may sound like I am digging at the core of the game. Then again, what experienced GM does not? The manual is great for players, but unless I delve deeply into the inner working of the game and ask questions, how then can I make a feasible contribution to the games expansion.
It may sound like I am being harsh, or even complaintive. The manual does not go into the deatils that i wish to know. Also, Leanthar is the creator of the game, and all those that are contributing GMs, helped make it what it is today. Just wanting to understand and tap into your train of thoughts. Once I am there, and all the questions I have, have been asked and answered. Then maybe I can make a substantial contribution.
Hopefully, I do not get my a#@ kicked from the server.

Also I understand, that xp was adjusted as so many found it easy to gain levels, but at the same time, being killed and losing xp becuase of it, one had to be thankful. If I remember the rules to being raised from the dead, one did lose xp. If they were resurrected they lost one point from all physical attributes, permanently. And, if you were reincarnated, then you lost all memory of your previous character and had to start all over again at first level, that is if you came back as a humanoid that could be an adventurer. Think might be the reason why they published the humanoids handbook.
As for the war, most of the high level characters started when sinthar was just beginning his reign of cleansing upon the world.
Also I am not the only one that thinks the odds are stacked against their characters. Just when you think you are just getting your head above the surface of the water. Not only is something pushing your head beneath the surface of the water, but someone else is also opening the flood gates up a bit.
Dire Wood was hard enough without the Bone Golems, now its almost impossible. I did say almost, not saying that it is not, but if my character was not acting in accordance with her alignment. Would be working on destroying the place utterly and entirely, forsaking all life within just to be rid of the place.
Remember also, that the character thinks her home was consumed by shadows, so naturally each trip through the domain of the soul mother has her not only hating the place all the more, but also hating the bindstone (which of course is of the weave) which is a connection to the place.
My character would love to send the soul mother into oblivion and take half of all her coin and see how she likes it.

We all would like to contribute something, some of us a bit more than others. Some are happy just roleplaying, some are happy being hack&slash characters, some even dedicate their characters to just collecting coin. My character is creative.

Layonara is an rp server, but it seems little xp is based on actual rp and more on hack&slash.
The monsters are all fanatical and relentless, and those creatures that are supposed to be allies, are also trying to kill you, with just as much fanaticism as the monsters you are trying to avoid.

In an actual scenario, this taken from sitdown, if you can not defeat an opponent you run and hide, or run for safety. This is very hard to do, when you run from one frame to another, and when you enter the next frame, and you know the creature you are running from as way back behind you, you enter the next frame, the monster starts on top of you. Found this out when my party accidentally came across the kenku, who are actually supposed to be shy, they were anything but shy. Chased me not from one frame but into the third. They would not stop until I was dead. I swear if I my character could run any faster, they would have probably met me in point harbor anyways and killed me there as I boarded the ship for Port Hampshire.
This to me does not seem right for roleplay.

I would also like to make a note.
As an experienced GM, having been player also. Each experienced Gm knows that the best campaigns, and even worlds, seem to be very successful when the players themselves contribute not only their time in rp, but also contribute their creativity to the game. The Gm is there to rp too. They just have a better time at it than the players, as they have a diversity in which to rp with, but if the GM kills characters outright within the first couple of levels, and makes their world more challenging than the levels by which the players can have their characters act within, then the rp experience becomes frustrating.
I have played Rolemaster, it takes almost two hours to make a character, only to have them die within the first 30 min of an adventure. In that system, you spend more time in making a character than actual roleplaying. The same can be said about GURPS, Traveller, Twilight 2000 and quite a few others. Miught also explain why many of these games are no longer popular.

Layonara Online is a great world, love what you have done with it. Just think low level characters need a break once and while. As a rule, I do not try to openly kill my players off until they hit like 12th level. The players know this, and they accept it.

[Leanthar]

Komodo,
  I am not sure how else to say this because we have tried to explain it a number of times in other threads but you keep bringing this up.  The XP is like it is for a reason and it will remain so.  The creature difficulty is as it is for a reason and it will remain so.  *shrugs* I don't know how else to tell you that in any clearer terms than that.
  What is happening here, it seems at least, is that we are not making changes to your liking and thusly we are doing something 'wrong'... *shrugs* I will not answer any more questions on this XP subject.  It is old.

[regnus]

Komoda - 10/14/2005  7:03 PM

In an actual scenario, this taken from sitdown, if you can not defeat an opponent you run and hide, or run for safety. This is very hard to do, when you run from one frame to another, and when you enter the next frame, and you know the creature you are running from as way back behind you, you enter the next frame, the monster starts on top of you. Found this out when my party accidentally came across the kenku, who are actually supposed to be shy, they were anything but shy. Chased me not from one frame but into the third. They would not stop until I was dead. I swear if I my character could run any faster, they would have probably met me in point harbor anyways and killed me there as I boarded the ship for Port Hampshire.
This to me does not seem right for roleplay.

Layonara Online is a great world, love what you have done with it. Just think low level characters need a break once and while. As a rule, I do not try to openly kill my players off until they hit like 12th level. The players know this, and they accept it.

I think you hit the nail here when you said "In an actual scenario, this taken from sitdown."  I assume here that you mean PnP.  You are right about this.  But what you are failing to see in my opinion is that this is NWN and not PnP.  There are only so many things that can be done with the mechanics of the game and its A.I.  I am sure others can confirm this or tell me I am wrong, but I dont think you can adjust a creatures aggressiveness to that varying a degree.  It either likes you, doesn't like you, or could care less about you.  So, when you run into a creature that doesnt like you, it is going to chase you down as if you have just insulted its mother with the most heinous insult on the planet.  Is that right?  Maybe not, but it is something you have to live with in the game.  Again, anyone who knows this for sure please confirm or let me know I am wrong.

As to the openly trying to kill lower level players, from a players perspective, I disagree here.  I have read it all over the place that Layo is a group based world.  You have to have a good group to tangle with a lot of the encounters.  It is as simple as that.  It also encourages RP between players which is almost always a good thing.  

On that note, I have been killed by the giants that guard the almonds as well.  And for the record, I was with a group of characters that were 'high level'.  

You have to play smart and know where you are going.  Blind exploration is dangerous as it should be.  I like the fact that life is hard on Layonara.  If life wasn't hard then what would you need heroes for?  

And don't take this as a mean spirited rebuke of your points.  I am just giving you my perspective as another player here.

Was not suggesting any changes Leanthar to the xp system.

There is everything else mentioned in the body of my last post.
Examples and explanations.

How can I even contribute to the world of layonara without someone at least going to establish a disussion. The whole xp subject is redundant. I voiced my opinion and received my response. what more is there to say about it? Absolutely nothing. It's set in stone.

I also know that you are very busy, RL and with Layonara.
I am also thankful that you are quick to respond to my posts within this thread.
All are questions I have for the creator, just as any player would have questions for Gary. Let me just say that being a big fan of DnD, wish the internet was around when I was first introduced to DnD as I had many questions to ask the creator of Mazes and Monsters, which became DnD.
Understanding is key to creating.

Its the rest of the previous post to this, that I would like your input.