Concerning druids

[Llu]

i have searched the forums, but was unable to find anything like it.
  I just read the Submission topicon "How to Druid". just a few remarks:
  Druids are restricted to *natural* items only, including stone, wood, cloth, leather etc.butwhat is the difference between aunnaturally cured hide and a unnaturally extracted and shaped blade? Stone is not much unlike metal, it even includes metal. ores can be seen as stone or rock, and require a chemical process, just likeraw skins to be worked with.
  ok, if the innatural about a copper great sword is that chemical process that was required, sure, but leave out the curing etc. as well. And how about Golden Swords? Gold is a metal that does not react with other metals or nonmetals, and is therefor just as natural as wood.
  if one finds gold in a river, melts it and shapes it (this proces has1 unnaturalparts) into a weapon, a druid may not use the product. but if someone else has found a cotton plant, harvested it, made thread, wove a cloth and finally made a garment out of it (this proces has3 unnaturalparts), the druid may use the product?
  please tell me if i just got the messages wrong
  oh, and no, this is not a request to change what items a druid may use, unless absolutely no one comes up with good reasons concerning the above.
  regards
  Llu
  ps stone sickles? glad i'm not playing a druid, because stone isn't really the best material when it comes to cutting branches, herbs etc. (why not gold or silver? =P)

[lonnarin]

Don't you know?  No matter what metal it's made of, straight swords are unnatural.  It's perfectly fine to use a curvy one though, like the scimitar!  Swords are naturally curvy in the wilds.

[Rayenoir]

Consider it part of the "oath" that druids must take rather than any line of logic, and it'll be just fine.  I always thought the weapon limitations were more to give the druids an unusual flavor as it stands.  The restriction of "no worked metal" was always kind of ridiculous to me, for the simple facts that you've pointed out.  Metallic elements are no less a part of nature than anything else, and the working process is little different enough from tanning and curing leather.  *shrug*  Just go with it, I guess.  I think it was to keep the poor li'l arcane casters from being all left out in the "heavy metal armor messes with your spells" category.

[Leanthar]

"...Don't you know? No matter what metal it's made of, straight swords are unnatural. It's perfectly fine to use a curvy one though, like the scimitar! Swords are naturally curvy in the wilds...."

*smiles* I hear you there.

[Llu]

About the oath, I have no objections to that. Of course woven cloth is just as unnatural as a forged axe, but let's just say woven cloths are allowed for the sake of decency. Just as scimitars are allowed for the sake of protection.
But it was stated that a Druid could wear metal amulets and rings. Why no use golden sickles then? If the only metal instrument a Druid is allowed to use is to be a scimitar, i would suggest introducing wooden or leather amulets and rings.
You can carve wood and put a gem in it, so no need for forged metal. Just a suggestion about one of the "replacement"-items for Druid that are going to be implemented.
I have just thought of a theory why curvy scimmies are the chosen exeption. Fangs are not entirely straight either.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The scimitar is chosen because of the fluidity of the style one uses to fight with it and the clawlike shape, as well as the fact that it deals slashing damage, as opposed to piercing or bludgeoning. A surprising number of things are resistant to piercing and bludgeoning, but not slashing.

As for a beaten gold weapon... Och. It would be about as useful as heavy play-doh. Have you ever tried working pure gold? It can be shaped with a fingernail.

[darkstorme]

Also, there's the issue of "finding gold in a river".  Panning for gold is all well and good.. but it would take you the better part of your life to get enough to make a weapon out of, unless you just needed sling bullets.  Whether or not smelting the gold would count as "unnatural", gaining enough gold by a technique other than mining would take prohibitively long - quite aside from the other colossal disadvantage the metal has as a weapon, as stated by SZ.

(As an aside, I seem to recall that most druid-used rings/amulets are made of braided hemp and wood in the PnP system... the scimitar thing just seems a bit odd.  I suppose it could double as a sort of machete, which a druid would need to restore balance to disobedient plants.  That's about the best I can do.)

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

No, the scimitar is for a druid's protection against creatures and abominations that are resistant to piercing and bludgeoning damage, such as certain types of meaty undead. Also handy for smiting such abominations, whether they attack first or not.

[EdTheKet]

unless absolutely no one comes up with good reasons concerning the above

[/FONT]
    Allright, you asked for it
   

Druids are restricted to *natural* items only, including stone, wood, cloth, leather etc. but what is the difference between a unnaturally cured hide and a unnaturally extracted and shaped blade?

[/FONT]
    There’s a lot more unnatural (read technological) process involved in gathering ore, smelting it and forging a metal weapon from it that from a cured hide.
    In principle, all you need for a cured hide is a hide, something acid like (like urine), and something to s...e.
   

Stone is not much unlike metal, it even includes metal. ores can be seen as stone or rock, and require a chemical process, just like raw skins to be worked with.

[/FONT]
    Stone is not metal at all. Granted, there are atoms of metal in there, but to that’s not close to usable quantities. Else people would pick up any rock and smelt it, instead of building mines in locations with a higher concentration (so where there’s ore in the mountain). Keep in mind that for smelting, you need charcoal, or high temperatures, so you’d need fuel to burn your fires, which comes from wood probably, so another affront to nature.
    So to forge a blade, you’re making holes into mountains to gain ore (which isn’t that bad, but you’re also building roads probably to move your ore to your smithy), then you’re cutting trees to either make charcoal of fuel your fires directly, so you’re killing trees to do so (and no, you’re not going to get enough wood from tree branches that fell from trees). Then, you forge the blade, and the idea of a blade is to fight with it, so you’d use it to kill nature’s creatures.
    This entire affront to nature and the Balance in forging a blade in no way comes close to the curing of a hide. A hide from an animal which you’re supposed to be using all parts of if you kill it.
    So, there’s a big gap between curing a hide and building a mine, mining the ore, smelting it and forging a weapon.
   

ok, if the innatural about a copper great sword is that chemical process that was required, sure, but leave out the curing etc. as well. And how about Golden Swords? Gold is a metal that does not react with other metals or nonmetals, and is therefor just as natural as wood.

[/FONT]
    The fact that gold doesn’t (or at least almost doesn’t) react with other metals/non metals is not a valid argument. Gold is a metal like every other metal in that for large quantities, you’re going to need to mine it, smelt it and forge it, so you’re going to be disrupting nature’s balance big time.
    Apart from that, gold and silver are soft metals. If you hit something with it, it’ll likely bend or break. That’s why it’s only used for jewelry and coins, because it’s not strong enough for anything else.
   

if one finds gold in a river, melts it and shapes it (this proces has 1 unnatural parts) into a weapon, a druid may not use the product. but if someone else has found a cotton plant, harvested it, made thread, wove a cloth and finally made a garment out of it (this proces has 3 unnatural parts), the druid may use the product?

[/FONT]
    As explained, you’re disregarding a big part of the smelting/forging process. In harvesting cotton, you are not killing the plant. As for making clothes from it, there’s nothing industrial about it. You can take a needle made from a bone and make something.
    But I hardly think druids with their walking in forests would wear very delicate cloth, cured hides would be much more practical.
   

ps stone sickles? glad i'm not playing a druid, because stone isn't really the best material when it comes to cutting branches, herbs etc. (why not gold or silver? =P)

[/FONT]
    Yes, stone sickles. A sickle is a curved, hand-held agricultural tool typically used for harvesting grain crops before the advent of modern harvesting machinery. It consists of a curved blade with a short, one-hand handle attached. The inside of the curve is sharp, so that the user can swing the blade against the base of the crop, catching it in the curve and slicing it at the same time. It is sometimes referred to as a 'grasshook'.
    So, I already explained why you can’t use gold/silver from a practical point of view (too soft a metal) and you shouldn’t use any other metal either due to the production process involved. So yes, stone sickles, just like the old druids used to cut mistletoe from trees.
   
  And as for scimitars, the folks in DnD should never have allowed druids to use those if you ask me J The same argument I used for metal weapons applies to scimitars as well, but then we’d be a bit too restrictive, so we didn’t.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

A stone blade of any real length will shatter like glass, and in some cases, even more easily. Arrowheads aren't so bad; there's not as much stone to apply enough leverage on to cause it to fail. Spearheads... They've got the same thing going for them, but they ARE more brittle for being longer. A sword? Och. That'll shatter the first time you hit armor or particularly tough exoskeleton with it.

The scimitar is an allowance specifically because it IS worked metal, which is strong and comparitively elastic when set next to stone. Also, it's easier to sharpen than even a flint blade. It is a tool specifically for killing that which cannot be destroyed by more natural means; a lesser evil, if you will.

[egoober]

As an aside while the comments on stone blades of length shattering are quite correct, do not underestimate the quality of knife blades, spear, axe, and arrow heads made from flint or obsidian.  Both of these materials can be found freely in the right areas, and in skilled hands can be worked into blades of remarkable sharpness and durability
Ideal for a Druid, or even a tribal style Ranger, in my estimation.

[lonnarin]

Falchions should also be allowed for giant druids, it's their one-handed curvy sword...

Scythe too, as if the druid isn't allowed to use farming implements, who would?  Personally I think any weapon restrictions are arbitrarily silly; a defender of nature defends nature, no matter the means to such ends.  If a hole in a mountain for a decent suit of platemail is all it takes to clear out 600 demon princes from the misty grove of the 8 legged unicorn, then so be it.  Send the Xorn a ham and tell them to get over it, that their prescious shiny licking stone is serving a greater good. To denounce mining tunnels is to blame every watery trickle for the aqueducts they make beneath the ground.  To say that nature is simply a primal state and not the collective state of coexistence is folly, man is no less a beast than any other base creature.  Sure, civilization swarms across the groves like a blighted parasite, but do not the termites nip at the fallen log... in "balance"?  Creation, destruction, these are all merely ebbing and wanings of a greater cycle.

The best pure druid is a monk.  He can run around naked as the day nature birthed him, battling all without felling a single lion for leather, rock for sword or tree for shilleleigh.  Ever heard of tiger stance, cobra spring, fist of the mewling tabby?  All observations of nature and asthetic balance within.  We need an order of Katian druidic monks who take animal form and dare never take up any weapons or armor...  Revenge of the Kung-Fu Vegan Badgers.

[Falonthas]

maybe thats why if you note that when in combat you will hardly ever see the druid in his/her natural form because he probably isnt well suited for combat
however when he/she shifts into his animal forms then he is natures fighting form and can stand toe to toe with the worst of natures enemies,thus keeping the balance of all living things in order

sometimes you wont see the druid fight at all,even goblins and such have a place in nature as long as they dont grow too strong and begin to upset the balance
you may run across the druid stealthed simply watching the progress of all living things,nudging a animal this way,putting a beast over here, then again in the wilds you may be surrounded by druids and simply never see them at all

[ZeroVega]

Sorry, I disagree. Goblins have no place in world "Rah gah gwargah!" *runs into a horde of goblins whacking them repeatedly with his dual weilded toilet plungers of +2 Mold Enducement*

[lonnarin]

They're green, don't wear pants and they eek like angry monkeys.  How much more natural can they get?  Meanwhile nobody bothers to call the nymph on her gazing death spell...  fatal beauty, ha!  Then she can "suppress" it at will without covering anything up.  We all know it's a death aura, ye necromancer!