Author Topic: religens and belifes with out gods (Read 2184 times)

NEXUS7 · « **on:** September 07, 2006, 06:39:10 AM »

I have been working on a PC called Rosa for some time,

My Q is this are there any rligens that do not have a god,
Or shoudl I say, dos all devine magic and all forms have to cime from
a god like being.?

Dorganath · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:05:00 AM »

This came up a week or two ago.
One cannot play a cleric class without giving a deity, for their magic is granted by their respective deities.
Also, we're not going to just add a deity to the pantheon because a player wishes it to be so.
Check out this thread for the recent discussion along these lines.

NEXUS7 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:38:28 AM »

Thanks just need the point on devine magic "ONLY" comming from gods

as for the adding to the pantheon not realy what I was after but thanks for the info.

have read the thred, thats not what Im asking I asking about belifes that do not have gods at there core but do act like a raligen.

Rayenoir · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:40:20 AM »

Not all forms of divine magic come from deities. Not all druids or rangers must follow a deity, and their spells very happily come from nature itself, rather than being empowered by any god or goddess.

NEXUS7 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:42:22 AM »

That more like it, thanks so its all class bessed for devine magic and its limits
Thats very good to know, is druidic and ranger Magic with out a god Devine or is it
earth magic, etc?

ZeroVega · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2006, 10:10:31 AM »

Wizards use Arcane Magic. Wizards LEARN Arcane magic.

Sorcerers and Bards also use Arcane Magic but them it is INNATE.

Clerics and Paladins use divine Magic that is granted to them through their deity.

Druids and Rangers also use Divine Magic but I always RPed (or saw it RPed) as being magic that is granted to them from the land (so yeah, you don't need to have a deity if you play a druid or ranger because the deity does not grant them their powers). It's still "divine" magic though.

darkstorme · « **Reply #6 on:** September 07, 2006, 05:29:14 PM »

One would argue that it's a "Mother Nature" deity - sort of Gaia-esque. By definition, "divine" magic must come from a deific source. It just needn't be an anthropomorphic deity for Druids and Rangers. For a cleric or a paladin not to have a god would be... well, rather silly, given that having a god defines those classes. Can't you just picture a godless cleric?

*kneels to pray*
Oh, unspecified diety or deities, if thou or you exist:
Grant to me the ability to smite my enemies, on the assumption that they are also thine.
Grant also to me the ability to heal those who are hurt, provided thou dost go for that sort of thing.
Finally, bestow unto me the wisdom to use these powers wisely - unless thou art more into chaos.
Praise thy name or names, amen.
*Is immediately struck by lightning hurled by a half-dozen offended deities*

Pankoki · « **Reply #7 on:** September 07, 2006, 06:16:42 PM »

Nah not really. While all Layonara clerics and paladins must worship a deity, in standard DnD a cleric can follow a belief and get their spells and powers that way. It's perfectly fine, we just do it one way in Layonara and its the sole way that will ever be allowed.

darkstorme · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:09:45 PM »

I've always understood the "belief" system in standard D&D as a house rule, as to whether it's allowed or not. It really makes little sense that belief, even fervent belief, will deliver quasi-miraculous powers into the hands of a mortal. And spells like Commune would then make no sense at all. Regardless, on Layo, gods and goddesses are very active. Having someone claim that they garnered divine power from a belief would probably incite some sort of divine retribution to keep the idea from getting out of hand. *laughs*

ZeroVega · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:32:38 PM »

Oh! I believe in the power of cheese! Can I be a cleric of cheese? What are my domains? Can my holy symbol be made of the good stuff?

Rowana · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2006, 07:35:52 PM »

Quote

ZeroVega - 9/7/2006 12:10 PM

Wizards use Arcane Magic. Wizards LEARN Arcane magic.

Sorcerers and Bards also use Arcane Magic but them it is INNATE.

Clerics and Paladins use divine Magic that is granted to them through their deity.

Druids and Rangers also use Divine Magic but I always RPed (or saw it RPed) as being magic that is granted to them from the land (so yeah, you don't need to have a deity if you play a druid or ranger because the deity does not grant them their powers). It's still "divine" magic though.

Just adding my two sence... Bards can use Divine magic as well, at their option. Healing magic, curatives and such like 'remove curse' I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) are all divine magics. This adds a new dimention to bards as a whole. I know several fairly devout bards on Layo.

@ OP, as to beleifs with out gods, I've run into quite a few agnostic characters on the server. You can have ethics and moral codes (or lack there of) with out a god or goddess to back you. If you are asking if you can worship a spirit instead of a god or goddess, or a concept as opposed to that, it's really all sort of in the same brackett. As far as mechanics, i believe it's been covered pretty well that a cleric or paladin can't do this, but any other class can claim what ever insanity or spirit or lack of religious edict they like, i'd assume.

Rayenoir · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2006, 02:31:16 AM »

No, bards do not use divine magic of any kind. Healing magics cast from a bard are arcane in nature. A spell is not inherently a given type of magic unless it is exclusive to spellcasters of that type. Raise Dead is purely divine. Dominate Monster is purely Arcane. As another example, the Haste granted by the Travel domain is a divine form of Haste.

NEXUS7 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 08, 2006, 10:57:57 AM »

Hi all, what imsaying is in the history of layo some ex players had there PCs become gods, (NOT ASKING ANY OF MINE DO EVER)
what im saying is I needed to clear up that fact that all Devine magic comes from a God head or god like being, this has hit a gray area with Rangers and Drueds but thats ok, The Good freeérs have an Ideoligay which must have a fix counterpoint in god devine magic. I will be posting more soon on there activertys and needed the info to clear some hings up

God Freeérs never us devine migic if its from a god our Belife, Arcane is fine.

Sorry to be so vage.

The thing I like about LAyo most is that players and have a real input into the world, they came with idears and as long as they dont try and brake the game by cheating you can play RP untill you drop, its a grate world just for this.

ZeroVega · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2006, 11:28:11 AM »

Well, unless your players has had a "divine" encounter with a deity, and has been told just how divine magic works, he or she wouldn't know. So I wouldn't take anything you hear in this thread and use it IC (that'd probably fall under metagaming).

Rangers and Druids, again, draw their divine power from nature, from the earth, from an earthen spirit, or whatever you want to call it, but it's not a god.

No PCs have ever become gods in the Layonara Online Campaign.

All Clerics and Paladins on Layonara must follow a god if they wish to have clerical powers. Now if you want to play a cleric who believes that water is a deity than I'd say, "go for it" but you won't be allowed to use any divine spells since water cannot give you divine magic.

Hope that all made sense.

EdTheKet · « **Reply #14 on:** September 08, 2006, 12:12:38 PM »

Allright, let me make this clear.
1) Divine magic comes from gods, this is the magic of clerics and paladins (The Weave acts as a conduit).
2) Arcane magic comes from the Weave, this is the magic of wizards, sorcerors and bards. The Weave is looked after by Lucinda, a goddess.
3) Duidic magic comes from the interconnectedness of all things living. This is not considered Divine (although due to NWN game mechanics there is no other option).
So, I am not sure what your intent is with this Good Freeing business, but holding a view that all gods are inherently evil while you are surrounded by evidence that opposes that view (clerics of Aeridin healing the sick, clerics of Prunilla blessing the harvest, paladins of Toran protecting the innocent from evil, clerics of Ilsare promoting love and the arts, clerics of Shindaleria blessing ships for safe travel) is unfeasible. And I use the word 'evidence' on purpose, as that's what it is, you can actually see it happening.

NEXUS7 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2006, 03:46:11 AM »

Quote

EdTheKet - 9/8/2006 12:12 PM

"1: Divine magic comes from gods, this is the magic of clerics and paladins (The Weave acts as a conduit)."

yes that is what I have been told in and out of game, more than happy with that.

"2::Arcane magic comes from the Weave, this is the magic of wizards, sorcerors and bards. The Weave is looked after by Lucinda, a goddess."

That is my understanding as well.

"3: Duidic magic comes from the interconnectedness of all things living. This is not considered Divine (although due to NWN game mechanics there is no other option). "

this to is my undearstanding as well.

"I am not sure what your intent is with this Good Freeing business"
Intent is the right word, Let me say im "not" trying to make a sudo cleric who has none god given powers. qout the operset
I just had the idear for a PC that held helifes that would be intaresting and I hope fun to play.
She do not in fact hold that gods are ALL "EVIL" I know this sounds odd as she says they hold souls in slavery.
But she has never called the EVIL not one. Her belife is that souls need to be freed from the delustions that gods have created.
That yes she can see good gods doing good and bad ones evil, but she levels that is there but the form of there nartuer,
she levels that an soul that trains for enlightement will see Good and evil as but parts of the same inlustion spun by
the gods to bind souls to there bondage. Gods are formed buy all of us as port of our need for a belife which we need to let go.
they became form and gained power over souls and the worlds throw that misgaded belife and the power talkend from the gods folowers.
To belife is to hand power to the gods.

Rosa is LN and I see her creed as being a LN would do, she is also a dis-beliver, if you asked her "all all the gods then evil as they hold souls back?"
Which she has been asked in game she will answer "your falling into there trap again, an enlightended souls know that good and evil are but traps of the mind"
This dos not mean Im trying to ignore the reality of Good N and Evil in Layo and DnD its just she holds a belife that we will once enligheten shead such things
as we shed the inltions of the world. What this means in game is that she will say thing that as has been said my be considered blasfumes but no more so than the disrepect a good PC would give a bad PC and Vice verser when talking about there respective gods.

She dos not refute the evidence of good and evil in the world, she will agree that its there, but this then dos not counter her belife that
gods hold back each soul from true enlighemet that is a state grater than any god and renders the minings of Good and evil meningless.

What gets me is the fact the all faith in Layo has proof or as you put it evidence, that you may not understand what your gods doing but know for a fact that
there is a god. What Rosa has is faith with out evidence but she never the less blives it and lelives "the way" as she puts it. Not shes young and has
yet to reach any thing like a monk master stage, where with time she will temper her view to relise that one can not fioce enlightment on others
you can only show like her master did and others will are will not follow. She is young and rash and like so many of us will make mistakes.

All I ask is that she begiven the time to make thows mistages in game and find her own way throw them. To meny this will be the gratest of blasphamys
Even thows that dont follow a god know thay are real, which most clerics can deal with, most evil and good Pcs my attack each otheres gods in words and deeds
but again the asumtion is that there gods are real and are G,N,E. But theres rosa with a now coulter view that, yes the gods are real and yes they are GNE
but that in fact there are a product of out own will and faith, they can no not help to be what thay are for we created them from fear and uninligement.
That is only we left there fold and set our selfs free we gane a grater state of being.

thats it all in a nut shell, I would say that there is a key president for this and that is Bloodstone, as the wars of good and bad Dragons raged it was he that
simplay said "all dragons are the same, of no use to us any more" Now im not saying in any way that my 4th level PC and any thing like Bloodstone os scope and power
to shape the world other than the fact that Idears can be very dangaras to some. They fear them and seek to kill thought that is counter to there belife.
Now I have no Idear why blood asked as he did after his dragin declutaion and nore do rosa. He could have done a hes evil just to prove a point or becuse he was mad in the eyes of others, but lets not for get this mad man had a vast army behind him and to do that you need more than a whip put a blelife that others will stand and die for.
Even evil needs an ideoligy that will pulls wills to it, US v Them at its most base.

I was hoping that The good free'ers would become as kind of counter coulter, Rosa is estream in her belifes but I was hoping that her belifes by cach on
with some how are not so hard on clerics, they may see D-magic as ok to us but still follow trhe creed that there could be a path that leads to some thing ragter than
a happy time with your god in the here after. A monks way seeing life and death, good and evil as but iltuons that blind the mind to enlightemnet.

Thats is in a nut shell

So what do you thing, Im a up seting the thoght police or just being a pain is the ****
or mite i just have an intaresting idear that could leed to some nice RP.
If that latter then I will be happy for that was in fact my only Intent.

darkstorme · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2006, 07:33:04 PM »

As pointed out in the other thread, you're putting together a character who'd be universally reviled or pitied by all of Layo's gods. This put him or her in an unenviable position - that of earning the enmity of every cleric or believer of every deity anywhere. Now, on several occaisions, avatars of the gods themselves have walked on Layo, and former humans have ascended. While the Dragon Gods promised noninterference, the Humanoid Gods promised no such thing, and their effects have been seen directly. And as I said in the other thread, a God whose followers are replete with good works MUST be good. To expouse that Good and Evil, Law and Chaos do not exist when the gods are their ARCHETYPES is beyond ridiculous.

Given the conditions of Kell's birth into Tieflinghood, he has no fondness for the gods, but even he's not going to deny their existence as it is laid out by the sages and priesthoods - it's plainly obvious that they exist, simply from their heavy-handedness with Layo proper. As I mentionned in [url What Rosa ought to expect is revilement and possibly a stoning by pious townsfolk. The best thing she could hope for is to be hunted down and detained by paladins of Toran, and placed in an asylum for the rest of her natural life, so that she cannot hurt herself or others, as she is quite clearly insane.

Plus, as any cleric, bard, or sage could tell you, there are instances of souls returning from their eternal reward in the fields of their deity of choice, with nothing but glowing descriptions of the afterlife - if this is "detaining" a soul, I'd suggest that Rosa is unconsciably greedy in addition to being delusional. *chuckles* Though Kell would love to be around the instant a priest of Corath, Branderback, or Pyrtechon heard the "new gospel". He'd be compelled to step in and help, of course, but the entertainment from the first few moments would be worth it.

As an addendum, I think it's unneccessarily inflammatory to ask if you're "upsetting the thought police" or being a pain in the posterior - that simply villifies anyone who lines up to side against you. The fact of the matter is, any character who expoused the views that you have Rosa making in Layonara would be quickly identified as a dangerous lunatic by both townsfolk and clergy, as well as travelling adventurers. Any "following" the movement gained would be from similar madmen, until one member of the following did something criminal, at which point the full weight of the Toranite legislature could come straight down on their heads.

Pankoki · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2006, 08:17:03 PM »

Rofirenite Legislature

Toranites are just enforcers. Agreed on the rest of your post darkstorme.

Acacea · « **Reply #18 on:** September 10, 2006, 10:56:27 PM »

Well, other than the fact that no one actually remembers anything of "the afterlife" so they could have been eternally tortured for all they fuzzily remember about being dead

Most are pretty free to make delusional characters if they so choose, so long as their delusions don't break the server rules. Some are harder to deal with than others and some are nearly impossible. The whole mentor telling her to free herself from the restrictions of the divine and all that, is not actually that radical. Several people have a "more time doing, less time praying for it to be done for you" attitude, or resent completely the idea of needing the gods.

They're generally individualists though, and the active crusade against the followers kind of goes against the point and is what makes it funky and near a religion in itself. Which brings me to...

She is mentioned as part of this larger group, an (unlikely) organization of which there was no mention when she was submitted. The only thing mentioned was said mentor showing her The Way or what have you. Yes, ideas and input and new things are good, but she's already being played as a part of it and you are already posting on behalf of this organization that hasn't been integrated or anything.

Quote

NEXUS7 - 9/8/2006 10:57 AM

The Good freeérs have an Ideoligay which must have a fix counterpoint in god devine magic. I will be posting more soon on there activertys and needed the info to clear some hings up

EdTheKet · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2006, 12:04:23 PM »

First of all:

Quote

She is mentioned as part of this larger group, an (unlikely) organization of which there was no mention when she was submitted. The only thing mentioned was said mentor showing her The Way or what have you. Yes, ideas and input and new things are good, but she's already being played as a part of it and you are already posting on behalf of this organization that hasn't been integrated or anything.

If you had mentioned the God Freeers I would not have approved them as organization. Within a short period of time after they might have been formed, somebody would've already removed/destroyed them as they immediately earn the enmity of everyone who follows a deity, as darkstorme already validly posted. Organizations that people want to be part of upon submission will need to be approved, and something like this should have been mentioned in the original submission.
Even if this was approved, you'd certainly not have the rank in the organization to speak on its behalf.

Second of all:

Your precedent is wrong.

Quote

I would say that there is a key president for this and that is Bloodstone, as the wars of good and bad Dragons raged it was he that
simplay said "all dragons are the same, of no use to us any more"

The Dragon Wars raged and caused many deaths among the non-dragon races. Sinthar stood up as he didn't want to see everyone dead and then he started his war against the dragons to make them stop. In this case, the gods are not going about, waging a war, and killing lots of people. They are also not holding people's souls hostage, and everybody knows that.