Aussie Game Group Thread

[jan]

Good roleplaying .

I'll leave it at that , have fun all on the next try .

[s0ulz]

Okay I'm terribly sorry guys. I had no idea something like that could or would happen... I guess I should've guessed trouble was ahead if it was a magic area, but that thing spotted us beyond line of sight and bang Wailed everyone. I didn't even have time to react and Foe everyone. Super sorry guys, I feel it's my fault.

[Script Wrecked]

Well, I think we've just established a new benchmark here, the "Aussie Gaming Group Soul Strand Loss from a Single Spell" standard, or AGGSSLSS.

I calculate there was a 0.27% chance (just over quarter of one percent) of that happening (that's not counting the failed saving throws, either).

Wasn't quite quick enough to screen capture the four pirouetting soul mother dancers, though. Think I was in +shock+.

[jan]

Its not your fault , i didn't even see what killed us *shrugs* guess the updates were a bit harder then anyone off us expected .

Ohh well ..guess its a sign , hoping you all have fun on trips to come .

PS : to whomever that STILL says that wail isn't too powerfull , check the lvl's off those that fell and think again .

[s0ulz]

I was just looking at the incoming wail and praying like mad that you guys could make the save. A second later I shot off the FOE, to no avail. Terrible.

Edit: I did get vengeance on that cow though. Took awhile, but I got him. If it's any condolence.

[jan]

Since no one else asks , i will .

Does any one know who/what is used to test the area  and am i the only one that thinks that the complete area is too tough for any normal group in the lvl range of 20 - 25 ?

[s0ulz]

I'd say the large part of balance testing is comparison of encounter that are, were and will be used. Probably some playtesting in a test module too.

However, who ever said it was for level 20 - 25? I agree, it's tough for an imbalanced party of those levels, but no one said they're supposed to be able to do it without help. Take the new toughness of the area as a challenge not as a bad thing. Even though I feel for you man, 2 in a row is too much for anyone.

[jan]

That doesn't answer the question , does it ?

In several posts it was stated that area's wouldn't be balanced towards the extremely high lvl's that now are in the world .

So now i'm asking myself what kind off characters were used to balance the revised area's and since asking myself isn't going to tell me anything , i better ask here if any one knows .

[Chongo]

Level 28.  If I'm not mistaken from the discussion, you were there without a death ward and had wail of the banshee cast on you.
 
 DC 33 at level 28 is relatively fair considering it takes a single spell to block and were we to 'max' it on the balance curve then it'd be DC 40 at level 28.  33 is fair game.
 
 I'm looking more at the new creatures, and yes, I got whooped today as well.  But it's one region.  For now, if you go there, go there in number, and go there fully understanding what has occured.  All you have to do is talk to folks, and I don't sympathize with casters that aren't testing the weave in each and every area given the circumstances.

[jan]

I don't care about the saving-throw or what has to be seen as " fair " , bottom line is that i wont travel there and will advice everyone that isn't perfectly geared and in the company off some very high lvl's to visit the place at-all.
I'm asking who or what is used , to see if i can find out what the gear is that was used and what kind of feats / abilities were taken into account to determine the stats of the creatures .

New creatures for which you need a 45 on attack to hit with a triple dam reduction and who themselves have an attack ( s ) that with ease hits a 43 AC  , combined with poison to weaken and death attacks to stun is not something that i advise others to go seek out .

I don't know how many HP they have , but my immune to ability drain weaponmaster/ fighter with not the perfect but also not the weakest gear gets whipped in a toe to toe fight ( and yes , one on one ) while he does damage every second hit ?
Not to mention that the creature wasn't even " medium " damaged after that .

That does not sound like a normal lvl 28 to me .

edit : wasn't even one on one , it was two off us and one of them .

[jan]

Level 28.  If I'm not mistaken from the discussion, you were there without a death ward and had wail of the banshee cast on you.
 
 DC 33 at level 28 is relatively fair considering it takes a single spell to block and were we to 'max' it on the balance curve then it'd be DC 40 at level 28.  33 is fair game.
 
 I'm looking more at the new creatures, and yes, I got whooped today as well.  But it's one region.  For now, if you go there, go there in number, and go there fully understanding what has occured.  All you have to do is talk to folks, and I don't sympathize with casters that aren't testing the weave in each and every area given the circumstances.

BTW. the caster WAS casting , i don't know if anyone of the group went ahead earlier , but as Souls stated most off us never even saw the thing that casted wail until we were dead .

I'm not planning on asking to get the SS from that wail reimbursed anyway .

I am trying to find out however if it has any use to request the earlier SS i lost in a fight off two to one with a " new balanced " creature back on account of " not totally " ( i know i need to put another word here , but not sure which ) balanced to the " normal " characters that walk the world .
That is why i ask about them .

[Chongo]

Caps, overly exclamatory endings, and basic aggressive tone in sentence structure comes off in a manner that is bound to initiate a negative response.  I'm pointing this out so that perhaps you take more time to think about how someone will read what you write.  I've found in the past that not paying attention to this ends up yielding an audience that does not want to listen, answer, or help.
 
 That said, I'm going to go ahead and let you know who I'm balancing for at CR 28, and what the common gear bonuses are expected to be.  I'm going to focus on a melee, as I think this most relates to your query.
 
 Rough Expectations for a Melee without Magic:
 
 - AC: 10+8+1+3+3+2+3+3+2+3+4 = 42
 - AB: 23+12+1+2+4 = 42/37/32/27
 - HP: 300ish
 - Damage: In general, I anticipate that damage over 150 per round subtracts a few points from the AB and AC above.  Damage under 100 per round is anticipated to have a few more points in either, or secondary classes, notably casting classes.
 - Saving Throw Bonuses (from stat increasing items, saving throw bonus increasing items, feats, and skills): +11, where anything above +12 requires a deficit, usually in AB/Damage.
 
 It's important to understand that I don't build creatures with these stats specifically in mind and on a chart, as it is a lot less defined.  But this is what comes to mind since you asked.
 
 Rough Expectations for a Melee with Magic:
 
 - AC: Raise the figure above by 10 to 15 with expectation of some manner of concealment %
 - AB: Raise the figure above by 5 to 8
 - HP: 350ish
 - Damage: Same statement as above but change that 150 to 200
 - Saving Throw Bonuses: +20 and/or SR of like level
 - Then throw in the pace of a fully buffed party with all the other immunities and bonuses with around 6 people combating foes usually spawning in numbers of 3-6.
 
 So, in general I come to expect a melee at level 28 to be using +3 armor, a +3 shield, a +3 weapon, have emerald jewelry, +2 boots, have either a +3 helmet or cloak, and have +2ish stat items in the glove and belt category.  I also anticipate bonuses from feats such as expertise or armorskin and/or tumble.  A very basic example (can't go into super close detail without talking about items in game) of this would be:
 
 - Mithril Longsword with silver and cold damage IV rods attached
 - Mithril Full Plate or +3 equivalent
 - Mithril Tower Shield or +3 equivalent drop
 - Emerald Stat Ring x2
 - Ruby or emerald in mithril amulet or emerald stat ring
 - Hardiness +2 Boots or equivalent
 - +2 Stat Bracers
 - +2 Stat Belt or DR/skill/etc belt
 - +2 Stat Helm or +3ish AC Helm
 - +3ish AC cloak, or +2 combination cloak with aspects like saving throw bonuses, damage reduction, stat bonuses, or immunities
 
 Now, if these seem crazy to you, well... CR 28 is darn near the realm of 'high epic'.  And in addition to this, the region in question leads to the highest level CNR, which bumps things up a fair bit.  Perhaps to better equip yourself you need to work with friends to acquire these things, or perhaps focus on hunting lower level creatures until you are well enough equipped to take on creatures of like level.
 
 And hey, you don't have to hit the wicket on those stats above to play here and have fun.  Nor do you have to build the most powerful PC you possibly can.  What you do need to understand is that creatures have to be built to be just a tad bit harder then the status quo dictates as AI is dumber then the PC.  And you need to be happy with your character.  In every character build you take a bit there to give a little here, and so on and so forth.  What should result is something that you're happy with.  And if things the same level are trouncing you, perhaps you need to shoot a little lower until you can get up to speed, or... perhaps your group just isn't well enough rounded to take on the challenge.
 
 Now, with the particular region in question, sure, there's some ongoing evaluation as to how hard things are and the placement of a few spawns.  It's a big change and some things feel a little hard.  That said, were I to have simply plopped a section of the Deep at that CR in place of the Thunder Peaks... it'd be the same story.  Much of it has to do with the acquired expectation of ease of travel, and how big a net change it is from that.  Examples of CR 28 creatures that you can compare this with would be the multiple types of Genasi, perhaps the Nightfall Bandits which are 26, drow clerics, blade masters, master rogues and the like at that CR, quasi elementals, trollocs from the Great Forest, higher level ogrillions from the great forest, and fire giants to name a few.  Some of the examples in there should really hit it home as to the relative challenge.
 
 I hope that helps.

[jan]

Thanks for the explanation ,not sure what you mean with the caps comment but i'll refrain from using cap's unless i start a sentence .

Just a few things i would like to point out , since it seems that people think every one has everything .

The cnr you referred to that is at the end of the trail , is the same cnr needed to make the + 3 armor / shield / helm and weapon you describe .
Not many have those and even less can get to it and sell it so others can obtain items made of it .
Not to mention that with the two veins that were there ( not knowing if that has changed ) and needing ten ingots = 40 nuggets and someone smelting it and making armors / 6 or so ingots for shields / same amount more or less for weapons / with it already made it almost impossible to obtain the items in the first place .

I'm going to assume that the damage you calculate is from at least 6 melee attackers on the same creature , since i noticed that i with my char did around 20 ( 35 str / + 45 ab for the first strike ) and Fenrir did about 5-11 when not critting .
The fun in playing , as you hopefully will understand , gets overshadowed fast once you realise that the things you need to see other places is so far away from obtaining that its mostly impossible to get .

Placing it behind even harder to fight creatures and with that further making it materials that only the very well build and very well equipped characters can get , isn't going to help the ones that don't posses them but strengthen the position of those same over powerful characters that do have those items .

If you want , i can show you with my character that the damage you are talking about not even comes near to what a fighter build does witch is build with rp in mind .

That is what mostly gets overlooked since the higher chars are too powerful anyway and the lower ones just under it seemingly get forced to travel in the same areas over and over and wont lvl unless they can go on numerous quests a week , since a 1 exp per monster when 1.2 million exp is needed , is not something that is going to happen soon .

I cant help but think that the creatures that are now in place are focusing on the very same powerful chars that are already too powerful .

Of course every one can disagree , but with the limitations placed by means of even deadlier creatures in the few places you need to travel to get things needed to fight those same creatures gives the impression to me that not overly powerful characters , mine included , get deprived from seeing places that intentionally were build for all to see .

If you expect that people who are forced to walk the same places and same areas over and over again , keep having their fun over years off playing , then thinking of people that build a character to sit on a bench with no illusion whatsoever to ever to see the whole world i guess you could be right .

For over three years i (hopefully) have been improving my character in both rp sense and gear to be able to see more and more off the world and i now see that that effort has been for nothing .

[Chongo]

When I speak of the damage I mean before damage reduction. Your build exceeds the numbers I illustrated, so you are on the high end. And to further clarify, I meant your average damage potential for a single round per that character (i.e. 4 hits for Barion).

Our economy is not based on the premise whereby being a certain level entitles or guarantees you to be strong enough to acquire it. For generations of this server, there have been large organized trips to acquire these materials. There has also been 'trickle down' of equipment and resources. This has worked just fine, albeit with the errant emotions of envy. We additionally do not have an issue with a shortage of materials. There's little discussion to be had on this, our team simply has more visibility on the matter then you do. Level 28's on this server are generally as well equipped as what I listed below. Some better, some worse. Oftentimes the ones who are not as well equipped simply don't care about equipment because of their playstyle. Sometimes people who are better equipped have a consistent balanced group at their level which seems to be able to adventure more then others.

You seem to have this impression that we're balancing for the 'upper crust'.  We don't retrobalance.  And by that I mean that we don't balance  upward  once we 'gm's' have gotten our fill.  This fashion of sentiment, whether it be to the staff or to the general community of those higher level perhaps, is not welcome on the forums.  In all of this you fail to recognize one indisputable fact. Prior to the Thunder Peaks the only source for the resources in question was the Deep. The Deep is considerably more difficult then the Thunder Peaks. And for the years that this was the only mithril source, we had no problems at all in the needs of players save for the aforementioned envy. CNR balancing is not made to be soft and that's that. And for about 6 months there it was too soft for certain resources. What resulted was an overflow of these materials to a point where the economy was compromised in the opposite direction as you're illustrating. And at the end of the day, you can't blame the team, the community, or anyone really for what the balance of the world and the economy has yielded for you.

There are some balance questions about some of the new creatures. We're waiting and watching and seeing whether it's the new-ness of it or if the numbers are a little skewed, though I will admit that the creatures you're speaking of are not on that questionmarked list. They seem pretty fair from all reports I'm getting.

You walked into these creatures with 3 melees and a half-cleric. This is not a balanced party. Your group was lacking in so many ways that it's an honest shock to me that you would complain of balance. The Thunder Peaks were rebalanced to require balanced groups. That means multiple class types. Yes, you need a mage and a cleric up there now. That's the way it's going to be. And you sure as heck need a good melee as there's still a ton of dead magic. This is about as fair and balanced as it gets. Look again at those numbers I supplied you. You will notice that the 'with magic' numbers are hugely different then the magic-lacking numbers. Had you entered that region with a balanced party: At similar level (28 in this case) a mage to haste you and disable enemies, a full cleric to heal you and supply immunities for all, a tank to take point, a good flank to supply damage, and maybe a bard to supply bardsongs for dominating numbers... you'd bowl through there. And if you can't find that sort of group... well there's your problem.

I've spent a fair bit of time answering your pm's, answering your posts, and generally trying to explain things to you in a helpful manner jan. It's starting to be too much time. You consistently make disruptive implications of injustice in balance and GM decisions. So, at the risk of sounding mean, I'm going to stop the discussion here with this: If you continue to disagree on these balance points, you're incorrect. The discussion is over in the fashion that you're bringing it.

Now, if you come to me with a PM stating that you brought a balanced party to a particular region, with a list of the characters and their levels, and a specific issue with balance, then I'll look into it. By specific I mean: "After the rope climb you are immediately ambushed by 6 creatures that present an unfair challenge given the ambush" or "Upon entering the magic area you are not given ample opportunity to provide protections because of a spawn which is too close to the transition" or even "We had 4 level 29's melees in a level 23 effortless dead magic area, and we all died. This is the area and what happened...". There's a lot of constructive discussion with examples exactly like this. And this is the type of player input which initiates change. The manner of your argument achieves nothing in the slightest except further angst and alienation.

If you have specific examples as per the guidelines above, PM me. Otherwise, this discussion is over and I'm going to spend my time helping to fix the server with those making the effort to aid me with concrete examples and backing information. Because there are a lot of folks out doing just that, and it's permitting actual change without the passive aggressive sentiments of 'I guess it's all been for nothing'. They are too common in your posts and I'm done dealing with the all too frequent statement of innocence prefacing a post chock-full of combative sentiment.

I hope we can pursue a positive exchange of information at some point soon.

[jrizz]

I am going to add something to Chongo's post. Besides a few spots that need to be looked at I feel that what has been created is the first area of Layo is truly necessitates a well balanced party. I think these areas will lead to some very interesting RP and groupings in the near future.

[stragen]

Aussies:  Can we run the Gauntlet?

It's level 4 to 17.

So Gladyus or Jake Saltpetre for me.  Either fit.  I would like a well balance party.  So maybe the low level rofi's?

http://forums.layonara.com/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=7452&day=2008-6-27&c=3

[Pseudonym]

I'm away from the 25/6 to 3/7.

Though I will be elsewhere my thoughts will assuredly be with you all.

[s0ulz]

Don't die. Seriously. Don't.

[stragen]

Captain Jake Saltpetre is seeking a crew of seasoned adventurers to perform a mission of daring.

If interested please sign your name below.

//////////////////////////////////////
// OCC

Aussie Time-Zone Group for the Gauntlet so far:

Jake Saltpetre
Chakar
Sein
Brandin Fleetfoot (dogboy)

A cleric would be a useful addition to the team.

[stragen]

Gauntlet This Friday

Come on Aussies and Honorary Aussies!  We need help here.  Sein may not be there due to work!  Anyone?